Want to populate Felucca? Increase skillgains by 25% while there.

[popps]

Increasing skills in Ultima Online, especially now with the SoTs and Alacrity scrolls has never been faster and easier then today.

As I see it, the reasons for players to go to Felucca should be PvP related, NOT disconnected from PvP.

If players do not go to Felucca then, at least to me, this is a sign that there are problems with PvP in this game. Perhaps PvP at competitive level is too expensive, or too complicated, or many players have problems with being ganked or else but my point is, that rather than looking at things which have nothing to do with PvP to motivate players to go to Felucca, it would be better to actually find what are the current problems that players have with PvP and address those problems making PvP more appealing to as many players as possible. Perhaps then people will start to go to Felucca more.....

I think that the problem with PvP is that there is a minority of players who get to win most fights and a vast majority of players who get to loose most fights. Obviously, those who loose most fights eventually loose interest in going to felucca only to be killed more and more again.

If PvP was to be more balanced so that players involved into fights were to loose fights but ALSO to win a good number of fights, then perhaps more players would be willing to adventure into Felucca to have fun when playing the game.
So, my guess is, that the solution might be working on having PvP fights be more balanced out where the outcome should be as much as possible an open outcome fight where either party can moreless experience the same chances to win or loose.... This could perhaps involve changes to PvP to make it for players to reach competitive PvP outfit cheaper, easier management of the modifiers etc. etc.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

No.

Started with Khaldun, which failed.

Power Scrolls worked for awhile but sooner or later that failed too, hence people arguing that Power Scrolls do not present a "meaningful" reward.

Double Fame. Double Resources. Better chance (according to anecdotal reports) at getting Champ Spawn Artifacts that can spawn in both Fel and Ilshenar.

Two new Champ Spawns, with unique artifacts (especially the undead one), and really cool content, that is, you guessed it, under-used because the population with any Fel interest is too small to support them.

I have explained this, repeatedly, in many posts over the years. People choosing to ignore it cannot change the underlying reality.

-Galen's player

1) Khaldun did not fail. It was full of activity for quite some time but like all other new dungeons it just wore out. Do you want to start talking about empty dungeons currently in Trammel? I guess they all failed also?

2) Double fame & resources did not fail. It is what it is. A nice bonus for people with enough brains & guts to take advantage of it. Though it takes very little guts as you can mine for quite some time before you will run into anyone else. Just like in Trammel

3) Who are you to proclaim something under-used? That is laughable considering you never go to fel so how do you know anything about the land? And please spare me your nonsense that you only just gave up fel a few months ago. You have been trashing fel for years on this board. Wanna do a timeline on your posts? Doubt it lol. Or were you bashing it while you were a full-time citizen there? Please.

Do you really want to start a comparison? It would be quite entertaining. Outside of Luna bank and 2 or 3 big ticket spawns you cannot find anyone in Tram. I guess whoever is not at these few places is inside decorating their house?

Fel Yew gate has enough daily activity that it compares to any one of your so-called huge population areas. And lets not forget that a large % of the people in Tram are fel players looking for some pvp gear on pvp offtimes.

 

[cazador]

1) Khaldun did not fail. It was full of activity for quite some time but like all other new dungeons it just wore out. Do you want to start talking about empty dungeons currently in Trammel? I guess they all failed also?

2) Double fame & resources did not fail. It is what it is. A nice bonus for people with enough brains & guts to take advantage of it. Though it takes very little guts as you can mine for quite some time before you will run into anyone else. Just like in Trammel

3) Who are you to proclaim something under-used? That is laughable considering you never go to fel so how do you know anything about the land? And please spare me your nonsense that you only just gave up fel a few months ago. You have been trashing fel for years on this board. Wanna do a timeline on your posts? Doubt it lol. Or were you bashing it while you were a full-time citizen there? Please.

Do you really want to start a comparison? It would be quite entertaining. Outside of Luna bank and 2 or 3 big ticket spawns you cannot find anyone in Tram. I guess whoever is not at these few places is inside decorating their house?

Fel Yew gate has enough daily activity that it compares to any one of your so-called huge population areas. And lets not forget that a large % of the people in Tram are fel players looking for some pvp gear on pvp offtimes.

Waits for someone to quote an infamous siege quote "Just because you don't see us doesn't mean we aren't there."

 

[DerekL]

You base your entire argument off a few single incentives given to fel, yet these are over 15 years. How many did trammel get?

If you have something else we're supposed to base our arguements on, we're all ears.

So lets look at this. You call fel a failed business model because it got a few incentives.

We don't call Fel a 'failed business model' because it got a few incentives... we (well, some of us, I only use it here for context) do so because when players were offered an option, they fled Fel and in the more than a decade since they've never looked back and never gone back. We call incentives a failed model because they've been tried multiple times and they've failed multiple times. We call Fel only content a failed model because it too has been tried and failed multiple times. These are facts - as solid and dependable as the sun rising in the east tomorrow.

If you want to construct a believable argument, you have to do two things... First, stop trying to tell critics that years of evidence should be disregarded without providing facts of your own. ("Me and my guildies" is an anecdote - not a fact.) Second, construct an argument that takes these facts into account. ("More fel only stuff" is not such an argument - because it ignores these facts.)

 

[Gameboy]

enough said!

I'd be 1/2 temped to try this.

 

[Lythos-]

Let's compare content for non Siege shards.

-Fel: stat and powerscrolls, double resources, khaldun (that's all we've gotten since Aos besides 2 more boring spawns)

-Tram: Doom arties that i still incorporate into my pvp suits, ilsh, treasures of tokuno, a variety of exclusive pets, underworld including exclusive rights to imbuing ingredients, slither and even now one of the most sought after pvp item the valiant scroll of commendation (im sure im missing something but again, i rarely visit those rulesets).

PvP has gotten stale. We've been fighting the exact same people in the exact same places since AoS. The only thing that has changed have been templates, more complicated suits, a botched faction fix and the fact everyone wants to shoot pixies on me now all while doing it when it's becoming less profitable by the day to do or raid spawns.

For the people that "don't care if fel stays empty": Who you gonna sell those splinter weps to for hundreds of mils when we're all gone? I don't know one single pvmer that uses one. Who you gonna sell all that reforged casting focus armor to? The more of us there are, the more money YOU make.

For crying out loud, fishing got it's own booster but fel has been totally neglected.

 

[Eric Ravenwind]

I'd like to apologize for the misguided post. I was under the impression that PvP'ers were interested in simply killing anybody that stepped into Felucca.

 

[Lythos-]

If you have something else we're supposed to base our arguements on, we're all ears.



We don't call Fel a 'failed business model' because it got a few incentives... we (well, some of us, I only use it here for context) do so because when players were offered an option, they fled Fel and in the more than a decade since they've never looked back and never gone back. We call incentives a failed model because they've been tried multiple times and they've failed multiple times. We call Fel only content a failed model because it too has been tried and failed multiple times. These are facts - as solid and dependable as the sun rising in the east tomorrow.

If you want to construct a believable argument, you have to do two things... First, stop trying to tell critics that years of evidence should be disregarded without providing facts of your own. ("Me and my guildies" is an anecdote - not a fact.) Second, construct an argument that takes these facts into account. ("More fel only stuff" is not such an argument - because it ignores these facts.)

Facts? It was only 4-5 years ago that a harrower could draw so many pvpers that one could barely move. I've personally been in the middle of 120+ person fights when the VIP guild hosted harrowers for pvp and it stayed at a pretty high number of pvpers until just a few years ago. Your facts that fel has been dead since tram are wrong.

The unrequested changes to templates, suits and the fact it's becoming less and less profitable to do a spawn or raid one and you have less pvpers. Pvpers have to fund our playstyle by buying whatever will give us an edge wether it's potions, new armor, weps ect. We can't do that when the top scroll sells for 15mil and there's a 1 in 400 chance of getting it.

 

[Lythos-]

I'd like to apologize for the misguided post. I was under the impression that PvP'ers were interested in simply killing anybody that stepped into Felucca.

No sir. That's a common misconception that people don't seem to get. I haven't seen a double digit numbers of pkers in a long time. On my shard, the majority of the pvpers are on blue characters and are in factions so there's less chance of having someone non faction jump in. Some of the blues do pk but that's why forged pardons sell so well eh.

 

[Orgional Farimir]

I'd like to apologize for the misguided post. I was under the impression that PvP'ers were interested in simply killing anybody that stepped into Felucca.

A LOT of people make that assumption. Back in the "good 'ole days" when ingots and wood was expensive people would PK crafters because of the value of their items. Now ingots, leather, wood and what not are so cheap there is no reason to.

Back before insurance people would kill the new players so they can have a back up set of armor incase they died they just had to get home grab another set of armor and go back to PvPing. Now with insurance there is no point in that either. You might get 5-8k in insurance gold, but that isn't what we want. We want excitment, and the "thrill of the hunt" so to speak.

Win, lose, or draw I love it when I am involved in a 30 mintute + fight with multiple SKILLED PvPers.

 

[DerekL]

Facts?

Still waiting on relevant ones rather than reminiscences about the good ol' days.

 

[Saul_Siege]

Galen basically just destroyed every argument presented in this thread and the people he did it to are completely incapable of seeing it.

Long time vet since launch, off and on throughout the years.

I always chuckle when I see threads like this.


Hi felucca players there is an entire server that caters to our style. It has pve too! It's called siege perilous.

If you're still playing UO for pvp, and on a non siege production shard... You're doing it wrong. But that's probably because deep down inside you're not really a felucca player and cannot exist without your precious trammel.

I lol everytime I see a pvper get all e-thug like they are tough while they still play on a server with insurance and trammel rules.

Yeh sure buddy. You so hard.

 

[Lord Frodo]

I'd like to apologize for the misguided post. I was under the impression that PvP'ers were interested in simply killing anybody that stepped into Felucca.

You are not misguided. There are PvPers out there that crave/demand the challenge of a true PvP fight and the reward is the experience of that fight, win or lose. They do not require shinnies or incentives to do this and they do not kill Mules because that proves nothing. IMHO these are your True PvPers (PvP for the sake of PvP). Then you have the Shinnies/Incentive based PvPers, we already know about all of those. Just look at all the threads on how to improve PvP with incentives. And yes these players have been know to kill others just for the fun of it, including Mules. And they just love raiding spawns and killing PvMers too. Then we have your PKers, they love to kill Mules and when it comes to a real fight with a True PvPer they run screaming to thier moma. And we come to the most loved type of PvPer there is. The Gen Chat PvPer, we have all heard thier boasts/whines and when challenged by a real PvPer out come the excuses of why they can't come. IMHO there are your 4 Player Killers, and yes all of them are still here and kicking.

 

[CovenantX]

Still waiting on relevant ones rather than reminiscences about the good ol' days.

Just so you know, if fel ever does become populated again, it's because of another "Good ol' days" Era...
So I guess this is the "Trammel Era", only time will tell.

PvPers are always the first ones to see a decline in population. it doesn't matter Which shard you're from (even seige).
It has nothing to do with the Introduction of Trammel, if it did, fel wouldn't have had any pvp since 2000.
It's because trammel gets more than 75% of UO's content, but I guess powerscrolls did last for what? 6-8 years, nothing in trammel lasts that long before it loses interests, sorry to say.


Incase you haven't noticed UO doesn't have so many people playing it anymore... what has happened ?

How hard is it to understand, when non-pvpers are starting threads about fel needing something to bring people back ?

 

[Saul_Siege]

Lol at true pvper and trammel being mentioned in the same post.

Anyone stil on a server with trammel who claims to be in it for pure pvp is pretty delusional. On servers where yo have gear you can't lose that allows one to drop entire skills from your build, there can be little diversity.
Cookie cutter gear and builds

Meanwhile on siege the vast majority use budget suits and still use skills like mediation and resist since using a gear set that allows the dropping of multiple skills includes the risk of losing that suit. The more you gear up to be competitive the greater the risk.

The real pvpers left regular shards years ago, or they left uo completely. Griefer a are about all that's left on servers with felucca.

No wonder trammel people are so vehement against bait/lure incentives. I wouldn't blame them.

 

[CovenantX]

Lol at true pvper and trammel being mentioned in the same post.

Anyone stil on a server with trammel who claims to be in it for pure pvp is pretty delusional. On servers where yo have gear you can't lose that allows one to drop entire skills from your build, there can be little diversity.
Cookie cutter gear and builds

Meanwhile on siege the vast majority use budget suits and still use skills like mediation and resist since using a gear set that allows the dropping of multiple skills includes the risk of losing that suit. The more you gear up to be competitive the greater the risk.

The real pvpers left regular shards years ago, or they left uo completely. Griefer a are about all that's left on servers with felucca.

No wonder trammel people are so vehement against bait/lure incentives. I wouldn't blame them.

I played siege from 2000-2008, siege pvp was at one point, and I'd wager it still is, nothing but Thrower or Archer/tamers. if you play siege, this has nothing to do with you...

Siege pvp WAS good, now it's fallen like the rest of UO's pvp.

 

[Saul_Siege]

I played siege from 2000-2008, siege pvp was at one point, and I'd wager it still is, nothing but Thrower or Archer/tamers. if you play siege, this has nothing to do with you...

Siege pvp WAS good, now it's fallen like the rest of UO's pvp.

i see mysti mages, necro mages, dexxers, nox mages, tamers, bards, thieves. I've seen like 2 archers and there are like 2 or 3 Gargoyles on the entire server. Must've changed since you played.

Yeh you still got grieftastic behaviour but its a lot easier to police.

 

[CovenantX]

i see mysti mages, necro mages, dexxers, nox mages, tamers, bards, thieves. I've seen like 2 archers and there are like 2 or 3 Gargoyles on the entire server. Must've changed since you played.

Last time I played siege was less than a year ago... but obviously I didn't stay on long, otherwise I would have mentioned it in my 2000-2008 comment...
That being said I find it unlikely, you're numbers are accurate, but you did mention 2 archers and 2-3 gargoyles...

I hope that's not ALL the players siege has that are classified as "PvPers".

Yeh you still got grieftastic behaviour but its a lot easier to police.

Bold statement indeed, you don't know who I am obviously.

I do like how you're telling pvpers to find another shard (siege) to play, instead of posting anything constructive.
guess what, most of the pvpers pretty much migrated to Atlantic.

For future reference: how about you compare the "rules" of production shards to siege/mugen, and think about why siege would be less appealing to most of UOs remaining playerbase?

How hard could it be... ?

 

[Saul_Siege]

Last time I played siege was less than a year ago... but obviously I didn't stay on long, otherwise I would have mentioned it in my 2000-2008 comment...
That being said I find it unlikely, you're numbers are accurate, but you did mention 2 archers and 2-3 gargoyles...

I hope that's not ALL the players siege has that are classified as "PvPers".



Bold statement indeed, you don't know who I am obviously.

I do like how you're telling pvpers to find another shard (siege) to play, instead of posting anything constructive.
guess what, most of the pvpers pretty much migrated to Atlantic.

For future reference: how about you compare the "rules" of production shards to siege/mugen, and think about why siege would be less appealing to most of UOs remaining playerbase?

How hard could it be... ?

I'm sorry I don't know who you are, nor do I care.

I offered something constructive. Move to siege. It's something they the pvper can control.

How hard could it be? Ask the devs. They haven't been able to get it right for a decade. So instead of trying to appeal to the devs to change the game for them when it's obvious that is a lot of work for a small population of vocal super friendly charismatic people who inspire help from strangers, how bout they change the game for themselves by moving to a place that already has sort of what they want?

They want bait. Well so do we on siege. How is asking for felucca content really any different than us asking for more players too? Same thing.

The only difference is they don't wanna give up insurance and multiple characters and all their stuff. Cause it's the pvp that matters right, not the stuff ?

 

[CovenantX]

How hard could it be? Ask the devs. They haven't been able to get it right for a decade.

What happened a decade ago ? AoS
I'll agree with you as far as that goes...

They want bait. Well so do we on siege. How is asking for felucca content really any different than us asking for more players too? Same thing.

The only difference is they don't wanna give up insurance and multiple characters and all their stuff. Cause it's the pvp that matters right, not the stuff ?

First, if fel as a whole, were more attractive, it should end up helping siege no?

The skill-gain system & limit to one character per account is what makes siege less appealing to me... among pvp imbalances (most importantly).

 

[Tanivar]

For future reference: how about you compare the "rules" of production shards to siege/mugen, and think about why siege would be less appealing to most of UOs remaining playerbase?

The most obvious problem rule difference between prodo & Siege is that Siege does not have insurance to protect the supersuits so many PvPers depend on in fel. That makes Siege less appealing because the Pvpers would have only their skill template and talent to rely on when fighting on siege. Most apparently don't feel they have any chance of winning if they just rely on their chosen skill template and their own PvPing talent. They have to have the insurance protected supersuit to have the self confidence to fight.

 

[Berethrain]

If you have something else we're supposed to base our arguements on, we're all ears.

Are you stupid? I'm refuting the argument. Why would I make your argument for you when I don't agree with it to begin with?

 

[Lythos-]

Still waiting on relevant ones rather than reminiscences about the good ol' days.

First hand experience is about as relevant as it gets unless you want me to dig through years of screenshots which are housed on the HOT guild forum to prove you wrong. It also sure beats the "well back in '99 erbody moved out of fel and that's how it is". It's not and never has been.

Untrue portraits of how fel and the pvp community is keeps people from wanting to even wanting to peek through the moongate. You and Galen constantly provide contradictory comments about how it's been totally empty since Tram then turn around and say we only want fresh people to pk. Which is it? Is it empty or is it crawling with pkers? (neither is true btw)

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Lol at true pvper and trammel being mentioned in the same post.

Anyone stil on a server with trammel who claims to be in it for pure pvp is pretty delusional. On servers where yo have gear you can't lose that allows one to drop entire skills from your build, there can be little diversity.
Cookie cutter gear and builds

Meanwhile on siege the vast majority use budget suits and still use skills like mediation and resist since using a gear set that allows the dropping of multiple skills includes the risk of losing that suit. The more you gear up to be competitive the greater the risk.

The real pvpers left regular shards years ago, or they left uo completely. Griefer a are about all that's left on servers with felucca.

No wonder trammel people are so vehement against bait/lure incentives. I wouldn't blame them.

Too funny. You and the other 16 people that play Siege actually think you are hardcore? For what reason?

We all know that the 6 people on Siege that do try to pvp(the other 10 people are Siege's so-called meaningful crafters & tight community lol)have their cute little gear buyback system in place. How is going to the vendor of the guy who just killed you to buy back your gear perilous? Seriously?

Who in their right mind ever believed that the lack of insurance is scary in the first place? Its not scary or more challenging. Its quite simply just more time consuming and tedious.

But at least you scary, non-insurance pvpers aren't running around in uber and easily obtained faction gear. Because that would be kinda prodo-gimp

Siege Perilous - "the place to go if you have no clue how to build a suit or use the gear available to you"

 

[DerekL]

Are you stupid? I'm refuting the argument.

The answer, on both counts, is no. I'm not stupid, and you aren't refuting my argument. (Actually, there's a third 'no' - you aren't even the guy I was replying to, and a fourth... he wasn't replying to me....) So, other than no, I'm not really sure *what* you're accomplishing.

First hand experience is about as relevant as it gets unless you want me to dig through years of screenshots which are housed on the HOT guild forum to prove you wrong.

Dig away if it amuses you - reminiscences of the good 'ol days are still irrelevant except to those who wish to steer the discussion away from the facts.

It also sure beats the "well back in '99 erbody moved out of fel and that's how it is". It's not and never has been.

Well, had I claimed "everyone", you'd have a point. But I didn't, so you're just exaggerating to impress... who? Not me. I know the facts no matter how much you try to squirm away from them and how much pain they cause you - you not only cannot refute them, you don't even try anymore. You just spin and twist and put words in my mouth.

Untrue portraits of how fel and the pvp community is keeps people from wanting to even wanting to peek through the moongate. You and Galen constantly provide contradictory comments about how it's been totally empty since Tram then turn around and say we only want fresh people to pk. Which is it? Is it empty or is it crawling with pkers? (neither is true btw)

What I said, and is perfectly understandable English, is "basically empty" or "essentially empty". Neither means "totally devoid of life". Neither of us have ever said "the population is zero". Again, twist and spin, dodge, thrust, parry! (Lythos's own weapon smacks him in the face.)

 

[Irulia Darkaith]

The unrequested changes to templates, suits and the fact it's becoming less and less profitable to do a spawn or raid one and you have less pvpers. Pvpers have to fund our playstyle by buying whatever will give us an edge wether it's potions, new armor, weps ect. We can't do that when the top scroll sells for 15mil and there's a 1 in 400 chance of getting it.

I know I'm gonna regret getting back into this thread, but I am so frustrated by this issue and that it's been going on so long and I do want to understand it.

Why do you have to PvP with the greatest most expensive possible suits? And why do you have to drag other people involuntarily into your fights? (like raiding champ spawns, killing mules, etc)? If that is your idea of fun, well hate to break it to you but that kind of behavior is anti-social, and that means most people aren't going to want to get involved. Now, you're saying, you don't care if non-PvPers come to Felucca, you just want your own kind back, but you're also saying that fighting the same people over and over is getting boring. So right off the bat, you're choosing to defend a model that is self-destructive. Players will quit and in your case you don't want new players to join, or Trammel players to convert? Or am I reading that wrong?

Don't know how many remember the RP group called the Shadow Clan orcs. They basically put themselves out there as an opponent for PvP at a time when the game was so broken that there wasn't anything else to kill except other players. Well I was involved very early on in the Catskills RP scene and we had lots of fun in our type of PvP and we had fun fights with other RP groups and of course we fought PKers too (and usually lost..badly). We didn't need insurance because we had a code of conduct so that we didn't loot each other and our armor was pretty crappy so we didn't really care about getting looted by PKs. We devised our own scenarios for fighting - we didn't need special loot drops. We had challenges like trying to seize a castle, or escort tasks, etc. And best part of all, we didn't need uber suits to PvP, in fact we voluntarily restricted ourselves to armor that was suitable for our race. Even back then, when PvP was at it's height, PKs and other wannabe PvPers would go to the orc fort cause this was a group that expected to be attacked and were fun to interact with. If PvP is about the challenge, turn your back on the uber suits, make your own idea of PvP a reality, stop doing the things that keep people from going to Felucca, do something that makes them want to go. Be the new non-RP version of Shadow Clan, offer clinics to show people how to PvP, police the anti-social element of Felucca. Put yourself in gimp suits and challenge other players to run the gauntlet and offer a prize to the winner. If this all sounds incredibly stupid to you, and you're thinking ...wow this idiot just doesn't get it, then you're right. But if you're not going to make Felucca fun, then why would anyone (even hard core PvPers) - want to stay in Felucca? Or do PvPers reject the idea of this being a sand-box game and insist that everyone else pour resources into making you happy when, and no offence, but it's not exactly clear what would make your style of play fun without annoying the majority of players in UO? By your own admission your chosen shard is dying....and your not happy with what the devs are doing, so are you gonna fix it yourselves? Yes, more energy is poured into Trammel, and you can't really blame the devs. More people play there, and we're all easily satisified by more pixels, so it's easier to design new content. Plus for someone coming from Felucca to Trammel, you don't have to worry about us forcing our playstyle on you, but for us to go to Felucca, we do have to put up with an aspect of your style that we truly hate.

Educate me...and you're right, I haven't read every thread in this post...its' getting a bit hard to keep up with, so by all means quote where I've missed something, but you don't have to personally attack me when you do so.

 

[Berethrain]

If you have something else we're supposed to base our arguements on, we're all ears.



We don't call Fel a 'failed business model' because it got a few incentives... we (well, some of us, I only use it here for context) do so because when players were offered an option, they fled Fel and in the more than a decade since they've never looked back and never gone back. We call incentives a failed model because they've been tried multiple times and they've failed multiple times. We call Fel only content a failed model because it too has been tried and failed multiple times. These are facts - as solid and dependable as the sun rising in the east tomorrow.

If you want to construct a believable argument, you have to do two things... First, stop trying to tell critics that years of evidence should be disregarded without providing facts of your own. ("Me and my guildies" is an anecdote - not a fact.) Second, construct an argument that takes these facts into account. ("More fel only stuff" is not such an argument - because it ignores these facts.)

Now that I'm back and can address the rest of your post:

The argument you're telling us is that fel failed because they gave it Khaldun and power scrolls ~10 years ago and people eventually left. Just because people went to Trammel didn't mean fel failed. And yes multiple is exactly right and it was ONLY multiple times they bothered to put anything in fel. But people actually went to fel for these so it was successfull. The next one was what, faction arties 5 years ago? That too actually increased fel participation, even with those who normally didn't go to fel.

There is no bait or lure, if you don't want to go, you don't have to. Your only argument would be that you can't get or do whatever it is because you don't go to fel.

 

[Berethrain]

The answer, on both counts, is no. I'm not stupid, and you aren't refuting my argument. (Actually, there's a third 'no' - you aren't even the guy I was replying to, and a fourth... he wasn't replying to me....) So, other than no, I'm not really sure *what* you're accomplishing.

This proves it, you've no idea what you're talking about. You even quoted my posts...See post #154.

 

[Berethrain]

I know I'm gonna regret getting back into this thread, but I am so frustrated by this issue and that it's been going on so long and I do want to understand it.

Why do you have to PvP with the greatest most expensive possible suits? And why do you have to drag other people involuntarily into your fights? (like raiding champ spawns, killing mules, etc)? If that is your idea of fun, well hate to break it to you but that kind of behavior is anti-social, and that means most people aren't going to want to get involved. Now, you're saying, you don't care if non-PvPers come to Felucca, you just want your own kind back, but you're also saying that fighting the same people over and over is getting boring. So right off the bat, you're choosing to defend a model that is self-destructive. Players will quit and in your case you don't want new players to join, or Trammel players to convert? Or am I reading that wrong?

Don't know how many remember the RP group called the Shadow Clan orcs. They basically put themselves out there as an opponent for PvP at a time when the game was so broken that there wasn't anything else to kill except other players. Well I was involved very early on in the Catskills RP scene and we had lots of fun in our type of PvP and we had fun fights with other RP groups and of course we fought PKers too (and usually lost..badly). We didn't need insurance because we had a code of conduct so that we didn't loot each other and our armor was pretty crappy so we didn't really care about getting looted by PKs. We devised our own scenarios for fighting - we didn't need special loot drops. We had challenges like trying to seize a castle, or escort tasks, etc. And best part of all, we didn't need uber suits to PvP, in fact we voluntarily restricted ourselves to armor that was suitable for our race. Even back then, when PvP was at it's height, PKs and other wannabe PvPers would go to the orc fort cause this was a group that expected to be attacked and were fun to interact with. If PvP is about the challenge, turn your back on the uber suits, make your own idea of PvP a reality, stop doing the things that keep people from going to Felucca, do something that makes them want to go. Be the new non-RP version of Shadow Clan, offer clinics to show people how to PvP, police the anti-social element of Felucca. Put yourself in gimp suits and challenge other players to run the gauntlet and offer a prize to the winner. If this all sounds incredibly stupid to you, and you're thinking ...wow this idiot just doesn't get it, then you're right. But if you're not going to make Felucca fun, then why would anyone (even hard core PvPers) - want to stay in Felucca? Or do PvPers reject the idea of this being a sand-box game and insist that everyone else pour resources into making you happy when, and no offence, but it's not exactly clear what would make your style of play fun without annoying the majority of players in UO? By your own admission your chosen shard is dying....and your not happy with what the devs are doing, so are you gonna fix it yourselves? Yes, more energy is poured into Trammel, and you can't really blame the devs. More people play there, and we're all easily satisified by more pixels, so it's easier to design new content. Plus for someone coming from Felucca to Trammel, you don't have to worry about us infringing our playstyle on you, but for us to go to Felucca, we do have to put up with an aspect of your style that we truly hate.

Educate me...and you're right, I haven't read every thread in this post...its' getting a bit hard to keep up with, so by all means quote where I've missed something, but you don't have to personally attack me when you do so.

There's a lot of stuff here and I don't feel like reading it all at the moment but to answer the first couple questions.

#1. Advantage.
#2. I think just about everything in game is voluntary.

 

[chise2]

Too funny. You and the other 16 people that play Siege actually think you are hardcore? For what reason?

We all know that the 6 people on Siege that do try to pvp(the other 10 people are Siege's so-called meaningful crafters & tight community lol)have their cute little gear buyback system in place. How is going to the vendor of the guy who just killed you to buy back your gear perilous? Seriously?

Who in their right mind ever believed that the lack of insurance is scary in the first place? Its not scary or more challenging. Its quite simply just more time consuming and tedious.

But at least you scary, non-insurance pvpers aren't running around in uber and easily obtained faction gear. Because that would be kinda prodo-gimp

Siege Perilous - "the place to go if you have no clue how to build a suit or use the gear available to you"

Actually the option to buy back your gear doesn;t seem to happen too often now. Most of the people I fight I can pretty much expect to lose everything. Also 16 players really? There are 50 people *not including the leaders* in our new player guild alone. The guild I am in has about 14-15 active members. There are several other guilds as well. Siege has been seeing a nice increase in population lately. Our guild is in factions and some of us wear faction gear but most of it is one or two pieces. We are not decked out in uber faction gear. It doesnt seem our opponents wear more then a couple pieces either.

Yes I think Siege is more challenging then other shards donlt think I would use the word scary though. We will probably just have to agree to disagree on that however.

I am going to just ignore that last comment since I know you aren;t being serious with that comment.

Anyway I know Siege isn;t for all and its NOT just because some people are too afraid of losing their stuff.

 

[Irulia Darkaith]

There's a lot of stuff here and I don't feel like reading it all at the moment but to answer the first couple questions.

#1. Advantage.

So you would prefer to win because you have an advantage, versus having a challenge? Or is the challenge in building the suit? Personally I miss the old PvP, but it's gone and I accept it and I don't want to adapt to what it has turned into. So, you're happy that I've moved to Trammel and no longer take part in the scene and have no desire to have players like me come back? Is that about right?

 

[Berethrain]

So you would prefer to win because you have an advantage, versus having a challenge? Or is the challenge in building the suit? Personally I miss the old PvP, but it's gone and I accept it and I don't want to adapt to what it has turned into. So, you're happy that I've moved to Trammel and no longer take part in the scene and have no desire to have players like me come back? Is that about right?

Why would I want to do something at a disadvantage? But yes I'm fine with winning with an advantage, mostly now because if I pvp its alone vs a group so its even more important to have a good suit.

The old pvp was fun also, but I've enjoyed most of it. I don't care if you moved to trammel, or if you come back, that is your decision. If someone wants to come to fel for a fight, that's even better.

 

[Lythos-]

Dig away if it amuses you - reminiscences of the good 'ol days are still irrelevant except to those who wish to steer the discussion away from the facts.



Well, had I claimed "everyone", you'd have a point. But I didn't, so you're just exaggerating to impress... who? Not me. I know the facts no matter how much you try to squirm away from them and how much pain they cause you - you not only cannot refute them, you don't even try anymore. You just spin and twist and put words in my mouth.



What I said, and is perfectly understandable English, is "basically empty" or "essentially empty". Neither means "totally devoid of life". Neither of us have ever said "the population is zero". Again, twist and spin, dodge, thrust, parry! (Lythos's own weapon smacks him in the face.)

I'll dismember anything you want to say about fel because i've been there since i started playing in 99. You can state anything you want but the fact is if you're not actively playing the same ruleset i am so you just have hearsay or your own twisted idea of whats happening.

 

[Lythos-]

I

Why do you have to PvP with the greatest most expensive possible suits?

And why do you have to drag other people involuntarily into your fights? (like raiding champ spawns, killing mules, etc)?

Now, you're saying, you don't care if non-PvPers come to Felucca, you just want your own kind back, but you're also saying that fighting the same people over and over is getting boring. So right off the bat, you're choosing to defend a model that is self-destructive. Players will quit and in your case you don't want new players to join, or Trammel players to convert? Or am I reading that wrong?

By your own admission your chosen shard is dying....and your not happy with what the devs are doing, so are you gonna fix it yourselves? Yes, more energy is poured into Trammel, and you can't really blame the devs. More people play there, and we're all easily satisified by more pixels, so it's easier to design new content. Plus for someone coming from Felucca to Trammel, you don't have to worry about us infringing our playstyle on you, but for us to go to Felucca, we do have to put up with an aspect of your style that we truly hate.

Educate me...and you're right, I haven't read every thread in this post...its' getting a bit hard to keep up with, so by all means quote where I've missed something, but you don't have to personally attack me when you do so.

I narrowed that down a little to hit the high spots.

-To pvp at all you need Hit lower D proof suits or else you're going to get hit every single time. That makes pvp no fun. Now on to expenses i'll do a quick rundown. For a pvp mage the price of a slither+orni+ -15 mage wep will roughly cost 180mil to buy outright. Most of the mystic mages now run the magery mark of travesty for added skill points which is costing around 40mil or more now. Add in the cost of leather pieces and it doesn't take long at all to run into the half a billion gold range.

-I personally haven't raided a spawn in close to 4 years and the only mules i kill are the obvious scripters. There are people that do still raid but i think factions come before spawns right now.

-fighting the same people does get old when there's not enough to rotate WHO you're fighting daily. Variety is what i'm after. I don't mind at all if new players join but NONE OF US WANT TO FORCE PEOPLE TO FEL. I usually run right by new pvpers until they constantly jump in on my fights. This "luring sheep into fel to slaughter" is strictly a conspiracy theory brought up by people that want fel to die completely.

-You're right. I'm not pleased at all at what is being done because nothing has been done in ages. I don't know a pvper in UO that cares one bit about double resources. As far as content, how would you really feel if you didn't get anything new and fun that you cared about in 10 years? You'd probably quit too as have so many pvpers that have just gotten bored. I do place blame and rightfully so because of the faction botches. First it was faction armor then the blind eye when it was brought up people were exploiting points to keep other factions from wearing their armor. A lot of my personal friends didn't have the time nor the gold to replace their faction arties and...quit.

My idea was to take the pvp hotspot for every shard and incorporate it in a way that the pvpers would be drawn there with hopes of making profit while pvping. It's universally known you don't go into the despise spawn without expecting pvp. I in no way want to infringe on tram players but to give us something in terms of content while trying to entice all the pvpers to gather in one place.

 

[Irulia Darkaith]

I narrowed that down a little to hit the high spots.

-To pvp at all you need Hit lower D proof suits or else you're going to get hit every single time. That makes pvp no fun. Now on to expenses i'll do a quick rundown. For a pvp mage the price of a slither+orni+ -15 mage wep will roughly cost 180mil to buy outright. Most of the mystic mages now run the magery mark of travesty for added skill points which is costing around 40mil or more now. Add in the cost of leather pieces and it doesn't take long at all to run into the half a billion gold range.

-I personally haven't raided a spawn in close to 4 years and the only mules i kill are the obvious scripters. There are people that do still raid but i think factions come before spawns right now.

-fighting the same people does get old when there's not enough to rotate WHO you're fighting daily. Variety is what i'm after. I don't mind at all if new players join but NONE OF US WANT TO FORCE PEOPLE TO FEL. I usually run right by new pvpers until they constantly jump in on my fights. This "luring sheep into fel to slaughter" is strictly a conspiracy theory brought up by people that want fel to die completely.

-You're right. I'm not pleased at all at what is being done because nothing has been done in ages. I don't know a pvper in UO that cares one bit about double resources. As far as content, how would you really feel if you didn't get anything new and fun that you cared about in 10 years? You'd probably quit too as have so many pvpers that have just gotten bored. I do place blame and rightfully so because of the faction botches. First it was faction armor then the blind eye when it was brought up people were exploiting points to keep other factions from wearing their armor. A lot of my personal friends didn't have the time nor the gold to replace their faction arties and...quit.

My idea was to take the pvp hotspot for every shard and incorporate it in a way that the pvpers would be drawn there with hopes of making profit while pvping. It's universally known you don't go into the despise spawn without expecting pvp. I in no way want to infringe on tram players but to give us something in terms of content while trying to entice all the pvpers to gather in one place.

Thank you, that was very helpful and sorry for the length of my post. But are PvPers like you interested in actually encouraging other players to try their style, or is that the Dev's job in your opinion? Meaning while you welcome new blood in Fel, you really don't feel you should have to run a PvP clinic or host an event to attract and show non-PvPers the fun that can be had with your style of gaming?

 

[virtualhabitat]

You could pave the streets with gold and make skills grow on trees... most of UO players are not coming.

My fellow Tramellians,

I regret to inform you that if they do pave the streets in gold and make skills grow on trees I will go to fel and fill my pockets often. Please do not look on my actions as a betrayal to our Tramelli principles, but more -an opportunity to take advantage of those who would take advantage of us.

P.S. Lets start a petition now to insure that skillfruits are tradable and for what skills we would like to see growing on trees. Myself, I am hoping for animal taming and perhaps discord.

 

[Lythos-]

Thank you, that was very helpful and sorry for the length of my post. But are PvPers like you interested in actually encouraging other players to try their style, or is that the Dev's job in your opinion? Meaning while you welcome new blood in Fel, you really don't feel you should have to run a PvP clinic or host an event to attract and show non-PvPers the fun that can be had with your style of gaming?

It's always nice to see fresh faces but its not for everyone and i understand that. I wouldn't encourage anyone to try that didn't approach first it but if they're interested i would definately give some tips.

I think the Devs tried to encourage with the arena but i have no idea how many non pvpers have actually tried it. I'm just one person and while i do pvp everyone is different in what works best for them so i don't feel a clinic would work.

There used to be multiple player run pvp events. Public harrowers, 2v2s ect ect. Right now i don't think there's a big enough pvp guild right now to protect the non pvpers during such an event though.

 

[Love them Redheads]

Until they finally fullfill a decade old promise to get rid of the cheating, UO PvP will continue to dwindle.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread (or maybe it was another one) as their #1 must have in PvP.....SPEED. Which is why almost every PvPer runs some sort of speeder program (do you really thinnk that 20 something year old in college with 0 dollars to his name has a top of the line machine and connection?)

Speeder programs, medic scripts, client hacks to change tiles and remove stumps...the list goes on and on. And as soon as someone new decides to try PvP he instantly gets smashed, chased down and slaughtered, then told in GC to go back to Tram. Which brings up GC, the worst damn addition to UO PvP since the archery/stealth changes. Nothing but a bunch of children in their talking crap to everyone they kill. It wasn't enough that they used to do it after fighting u on the game screen...... now they get to announce their precious victory to the entire shard and rub it in your face for as long as they can. Yes, I rarely ever bother getting in chat just because I really don't care what they have to say. But I know it goes on before, during and after every fight.

And even if you're one of the very few people who only have UOAssist/CC or the EC running while PvPing, like me....... because cheating is so engrained in the culture, even you get called a cheater and honest victories are somehow less appreciated. No one ever knows whether the person that just killed them was just more skilled and deserves a congratulatory "nice fight' or a giant cheater who deserves nothing less than a swift kick in the balls for ruining one of the best, most unique aspects of UO.

 

[Berethrain]

Until they finally fullfill a decade old promise to get rid of the cheating, UO PvP will continue to dwindle.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread (or maybe it was another one) as their #1 must have in PvP.....SPEED. Which is why almost every PvPer runs some sort of speeder program (do you really thinnk that 20 something year old in college with 0 dollars to his name has a top of the line machine and connection?)

Speeder programs, medic scripts, client hacks to change tiles and remove stumps...the list goes on and on. And as soon as someone new decides to try PvP he instantly gets smashed, chased down and slaughtered, then told in GC to go back to Tram. Which brings up GC, the worst damn addition to UO PvP since the archery/stealth changes. Nothing but a bunch of children in their talking crap to everyone they kill. It wasn't enough that they used to do it after fighting u on the game screen...... now they get to announce their precious victory to the entire shard and rub it in your face for as long as they can. Yes, I rarely ever bother getting in chat just because I really don't care what they have to say. But I know it goes on before, during and after every fight.

And even if you're one of the very few people who only have UOAssist/CC or the EC running while PvPing, like me....... because cheating is so engrained in the culture, even you get called a cheater and honest victories are somehow less appreciated. No one ever knows whether the person that just killed them was just more skilled and deserves a congratulatory "nice fight' or a giant cheater who deserves nothing less than a swift kick in the balls for ruining one of the best, most unique aspects of UO.

No, not everyone in pvp runs a speed hack or a script. I haven't seen anyone mod files for awhile.

GC was the worst addition. I wish they'd get rid of it.

I too regularly get called a cheater or accused of speed hacking. I simply inform them to page and I will wait with them.

The comeback is usually "oh you'll just turn it off". From what I've been told though before is that they can look back and see if you did, which im not sure is true but here's hoping.

 

[swroberts]

I believe history has shown that incentives don't work long term and the probability of bringing in a large enough playerbase to support a non-con PVP is not likely happening either.

The only real option is to somehow bring the existing player base together somehow.....and shard merging isn't a very receptive topic. But there are options down this line....

Now before everyone stands up and wads up there panties for posting, please realize that the following idea probably isn't currently executable (without some serious OT by the Devs) and there are many low end details that would have to be negotiated. This is just a possible avenue to increase the playbase to bring PVP guilds together.

Here it goes...
Think of UO shards, as the outside of a wagon wheel with the spokes going to the lost lands. So there is one Fel Lost Lands (No trammel) for all of UO. Any player from and shard can gate in and then only use your shard specific gate to get out. (Gates only)

Now this doesn't solve the "why go there" problem...Some ideas...
1. Guild run, trade centers, where the acting guild gets a cut of sales
2. Updated uber Champion Spawns with uber PVP artifacts that will only stay equipped while in Fel

It's a very rough idea...definitely needs tinkering...but I truley believe the only way to enhance PVP is to bring the current PVP based together.

 

[Tanivar]

It's a very rough idea...definitely needs tinkering...but I truley believe the only way to enhance PVP is to bring the current PVP based together.

Use TC1, those that want to PvP can copy their characters there and have all the fights they want if enough PvPers are interested in PvPing to copy their characters there. No dev man-hours need to br wasted creating another place to do the mass PvPing.

 

[Lythos-]

Use TC1, those that want to PvP can copy their characters there and have all the fights they want if enough PvPers are interested in PvPing to copy their characters there. No dev man-hours need to br wasted creating another place to do the mass PvPing.

While that makes some sense you fail to consider half the shards are west coast and TC1 is on an east coast server meaning those on east coast would automatically have a ping advantage. I also don't think it's fair to those of us left to have to go to a junk server to play the way we want. That's like saying they're coming out with a new dungeon but it'll only be available there. It wouldn't be fair to the pvmers.

We also don't want a new place. There's plenty of unused space already to put something.

 

[Berethrain]

I believe history has shown that incentives don't work long term and the probability of bringing in a large enough playerbase to support a non-con PVP is not likely happening either.

The only real option is to somehow bring the existing player base together somehow.....and shard merging isn't a very receptive topic. But there are options down this line....

Now before everyone stands up and wads up there panties for posting, please realize that the following idea probably isn't currently executable (without some serious OT by the Devs) and there are many low end details that would have to be negotiated. This is just a possible avenue to increase the playbase to bring PVP guilds together.

Here it goes...
Think of UO shards, as the outside of a wagon wheel with the spokes going to the lost lands. So there is one Fel Lost Lands (No trammel) for all of UO. Any player from and shard can gate in and then only use your shard specific gate to get out. (Gates only)

Now this doesn't solve the "why go there" problem...Some ideas...
1. Guild run, trade centers, where the acting guild gets a cut of sales
2. Updated uber Champion Spawns with uber PVP artifacts that will only stay equipped while in Fel

It's a very rough idea...definitely needs tinkering...but I truley believe the only way to enhance PVP is to bring the current PVP based together.

This is true, some incentives are not long term solutions.

Content is. Look how long factions lasted until they ran it into the ground because they didn't grasp the history or the mechanics behind it.

But there has not been any other pvp systems in place since then. So if we are to do without a new system, give us something to fight for.

ETA: Before someone posts the pvp is dead for the sake of pvp crap, we've been pvping for the sake of pvp. How long do you expect it to last? Even pvpers like to change it up once in awhile.

 

[Tanivar]

While that makes some sense you fail to consider half the shards are west coast and TC1 is on an east coast server meaning those on east coast would automatically have a ping advantage. I also don't think it's fair to those of us left to have to go to a junk server to play the way we want. That's like saying they're coming out with a new dungeon but it'll only be available there. It wouldn't be fair to the pvmers.

We also don't want a new place. There's plenty of unused space already to put something.

Any place they put a server for Pvpers to all gather would have different pings for those using it. Stick it dead center anywhere and those close in likely have a better ping than those farther away. The quality of their ISP's connection to the internet will also affect ping.

A new dungeon only available in fel, kind of have that with Khaldun and the old style Shame, Covetous and such old dungeons. with it being in a non-consetual PvP area, most PvMers wouldn't even give it a thought. <shrugs>

There likely is plenty of unused space all ready to put something, but that unused space will be near some, and far from others. Some get an awesome ping and are happy, some will get a terrible ping and not be happy. There is no way around that when your trying to get most of the PvPers together.

 

[LordDrago]

I thought that the faction "revamp" was going to be a phase in working on a better PvP system for players to work within for goals such as control of cities, etc.

It appears either I was wrong in this regards, it was part of a phased revamp but has been dropped, or it is part of a revamp that has encountered delays.

I am not sure how the dev team is organized, but one dev working full time on PvP related revamp, with another one or two part time would go a long ways toward developing a PvP system within UO that will be fun, challenging, doable, robust, expandable (in regards to a few changes in the dynamics to add some fun - thinking along the lines of new challenges added in like scheduled caravans between controlled cities (possibly scheduled by the controlling sides, but announced several days in advance to allow opposition to prepare) which must be defended/attacked by opposing sides to gain/prevent bonuses in cities).

So devs, if you are out there, think hard about further developing a PvP system for my fellow players to engage in "combat" We know that nothing you make will make everyone happy (oh how well anyone reading these boards knows this!!!!) but I think with a little input from the UO community, and a bit of effort by your team, something can be done.

Of course this might not increase the population of fel all that much (but you never know), but PvPers do deserve a system within the game to play in.

 

[Tina Small]

This is true, some incentives are not long term solutions.

Content is. Look how long factions lasted until they ran it into the ground because they didn't grasp the history or the mechanics behind it.

But there has not been any other pvp systems in place since then. So if we are to do without a new system, give us something to fight for.

ETA: Before someone posts the pvp is dead for the sake of pvp crap, we've been pvping for the sake of pvp. How long do you expect it to last? Even pvpers like to change it up once in awhile.

The way I look at things, you have some people who play UO and who get most of their enjoyment out of directly challenging their peers in Felucca, whether it's in direct combat or by trying to be sneakier or smarter than someone else in hunting in a dungeon, gathering resources of some sort, or corrupting sigils. Some people get most of their enjoyment out of competing against others in acquiring items, titles, glory and fame in Trammel. Still others get most of their enjoyment from UO by competing against themselves in accomplishing certain goals. And certain others seem to get most of their enjoyment, whether it's in Felucca or Trammel, by bullying those whom they think are inferior to themselves and attempting to wrest items or gold from them by any means possible or by making their UO experience so miserable that they complain or quit.

We have various systems in UO that provide a variety of rewards to those who enjoy going up against each system's unique challenges. People who don't enjoy participating in a particular system are not forced to do so. If they would like to acquire the reward items from a particular system without participating in the system, they can buy or barter with others to acquire such reward items. This is true whether we're talking about systems such as fishing, crafting, treasure hunting, acquiring resources, or doing champion spawns.

No one is forced to go to Felucca. If you don't like the Felucca ruleset or don't want to rub elbows with the people who play there, don't go. Do not bash yourself and consider yourself a "failure" if you don't enjoy it. It isn't for everyone, just like crafting, fishing, treasure hunting, and many other aspects of UO aren't enjoyed by all.

That being said, I do agree with the people who have tried to explain in a rational manner why they think Felucca needs more content.

Other than on Siege and Mugen, it's been many years since we've had any kind of full-scale expansion that added whole new areas, complete with towns, NPCs, and both above-ground and dungeon-inhabiting monsters that are in an area that is subject to the Felucca ruleset. The two Abyss champ spawns, the dungeon revamps that also occurred in Felucca (Shame, Covetous, and Wrong), the High Seas content that applies in Felucca, a few new champ spawn drops unique to Felucca added a few years ago, and the few ML dungeons and Heartwood which are mirrored in Felucca absolutely pale in comparison to the size and breadth of the following content that is (or apparently will be) only available in the Trammel ruleset: Ter Mur, the Underworld, and the non-champ spawn areas of the Abyss added with the Stygian Abyss expansion; the Malas, Ilshenar, and Tokuno dungeons added as part of the ML expansion; all of Tokuno; all of Malas added with the AoS expansion; all of Ilshenar added with the Third Dawn expansion; and ability to participate in the upcoming player-run councils (on Test Center, the new City Election Stones for the player-run council elections are only found in Trammel cities and Blackthorn's castle in Felucca hasn't been renovated).

I think it's way past time that the dev team worked to add some new content that is exclusive to the Felucca ruleset. It might be just the thing that's needed to lure a lot of ex-players back to UO and give it another try and to perk up current players who enjoy playing under the Felucca ruleset. As Berethrain mentioned, sometimes people just like to change things up. So, whether it's a faction revamp, the return of Order/Chaos, or new and unique land to patrol, fight over, sneak around in, take resources from, etc., it feels like it's way overdue. And if the ruleset for any new expansion area or content isn't your cup of tea, don't bother with it. It's just like fishing or pirate-hunting or treasure-hunting--if it's not something you enjoy, leave it to someone else. Next time around, maybe something will be added that might appeal to you. And if the rewards are something you want, then figure out a way to get them from the people who have them.

Edited to add: Also, I don't think the answer for a lot of people who like to PvP is to just simply take up playing on Siege or Mugen. I think many PvPers have tried it and it just isn't their cup of tea. It may be that they just aren't interested in spending more time than they currently do worrying about acquiring and replacing their gear. They'd much rather spend the majority of the time they have available to play UO actually fighting with other players, instead of engaging in activities to raise gold or gather resources for crafting new suits or weapons.

 

[Lord Frodo]

The way I look at things, you have some people who play UO and who get most of their enjoyment out of directly challenging their peers in Felucca, whether it's in direct combat or by trying to be sneakier or smarter than someone else in hunting in a dungeon, gathering resources of some sort, or corrupting sigils. Some people get most of their enjoyment out of competing against others in acquiring items, titles, glory and fame in Trammel. Still others get most of their enjoyment from UO by competing against themselves in accomplishing certain goals. And certain others seem to get most of their enjoyment, whether it's in Felucca or Trammel, by bullying those whom they think are inferior to themselves and attempting to wrest items or gold from them by any means possible or by making their UO experience so miserable that they complain or quit.

We have various systems in UO that provide a variety of rewards to those who enjoy going up against each system's unique challenges. People who don't enjoy participating in a particular system are not forced to do so. If they would like to acquire the reward items from a particular system without participating in the system, they can buy or barter with others to acquire such reward items. This is true whether we're talking about systems such as fishing, crafting, treasure hunting, acquiring resources, or doing champion spawns.

No one is forced to go to Felucca. If you don't like the Felucca ruleset or don't want to rub elbows with the people who play there, don't go. Do not bash yourself and consider yourself a "failure" if you don't enjoy it. It isn't for everyone, just like crafting, fishing, treasure hunting, and many other aspects of UO aren't enjoyed by all.

That being said, I do agree with the people who have tried to explain in a rational manner why they think Felucca needs more content.

Other than on Siege and Mugen, it's been many years since we've had any kind of full-scale expansion that added whole new areas, complete with towns, NPCs, and both above-ground and dungeon-inhabiting monsters that are in an area that is subject to the Felucca ruleset. The two Abyss champ spawns, the dungeon revamps that also occurred in Felucca (Shame, Covetous, and Wrong), the High Seas content that applies in Felucca, a few new champ spawn drops unique to Felucca added a few years ago, and the few ML dungeons and Heartwood which are mirrored in Felucca absolutely pale in comparison to the size and breadth of the following content that is (or apparently will be) only available in the Trammel ruleset: Ter Mur, the Underworld, and the non-champ spawn areas of the Abyss added with the Stygian Abyss expansion; the Malas, Ilshenar, and Tokuno dungeons added as part of the ML expansion; all of Tokuno; all of Malas added with the AoS expansion; all of Ilshenar added with the Third Dawn expansion; and ability to participate in the upcoming player-run councils (on Test Center, the new City Election Stones for the player-run council elections are only found in Trammel cities and Blackthorn's castle in Felucca hasn't been renovated).

I think it's way past time that the dev team worked to add some new content that is exclusive to the Felucca ruleset. It might be just the thing that's needed to lure a lot of ex-players back to UO and give it another try and to perk up current players who enjoy playing under the Felucca ruleset. As Berethrain mentioned, sometimes people just like to change things up. So, whether it's a faction revamp, the return of Order/Chaos, or new and unique land to patrol, fight over, sneak around in, take resources from, etc., it feels like it's way overdue. And if the ruleset for any new expansion area or content isn't your cup of tea, don't bother with it. It's just like fishing or pirate-hunting or treasure-hunting--if it's not something you enjoy, leave it to someone else. Next time around, maybe something will be added that might appeal to you. And if the rewards are something you want, then figure out a way to get them from the people who have them.

Edited to add: Also, I don't think the answer for a lot of people who like to PvP is to just simply take up playing on Siege or Mugen. I think many PvPers have tried it and it just isn't their cup of tea. It may be that they just aren't interested in spending more time than they currently do worrying about acquiring and replacing their gear. They'd much rather spend the majority of the time they have available to play UO actually fighting with other players, instead of engaging in activities to raise gold or gather resources for crafting new suits or weapons.

Nice write up. As you said Fel is not for everybody so why would you do all of this so a few may enjoy it. 2 dungeons were added with a Fel ruleset and I really haven't heard anything about any fighting or anything else, is it even used by the PvPers? Placing stuff in a Tram ruleset opens it to all UO players without trying to fourcing people to go to Fel. I know you will not be able to raid the PvMers on your godley PvP char. I find that very interesting that you really don't want PvP as much as you want to raid other players going after an incentive. PvPer V PvPer, no no. PvPer V PvMer working a new spawn, yes yes, this is what we want.

 

[Tina Small]

Nice write up. As you said Fel is not for everybody so why would you do all of this so a few may enjoy it. 2 dungeons were added with a Fel ruleset and I really haven't heard anything about any fighting or anything else, is it even used by the PvPers? Placing stuff in a Tram ruleset opens it to all UO players without trying to fourcing people to go to Fel. I know you will not be able to raid the PvMers on your godley PvP char. I find that very interesting that you really don't want PvP as much as you want to raid other players going after an incentive. PvPer V PvPer, no no. PvPer V PvMer working a new spawn, yes yes, this is what we want.

Holy cow!!!!

How in the world did you get from what I said the impression that I "really don't want PvP as much as " I "want to raid other players going after an incentive"??

Holy moley.

Did you miss the following part of my post? "I think it's way past time that the dev team worked to add some new content that is exclusive to the Felucca ruleset. It might be just the thing that's needed to lure a lot of ex-players back to UO and give it another try and to perk up current players who enjoy playing under the Felucca ruleset. As Berethrain mentioned, sometimes people just like to change things up. So, whether it's a faction revamp, the return of Order/Chaos, or new and unique land to patrol, fight over, sneak around in, take resources from, etc., it feels like it's way overdue."

I was trying to make the same point that Berethrain was trying to make, i.e., the people who enjoy playing under the Fel ruleset would like something new to look at when they are fighting in Fel against other people who want to be there!

Where in the world did I ever, ever say anything about putting something in Felucca as a way to lure people who really don't want to be there so they can be bait for someone who regularly plays in Fel??

I said if you don't like the ruleset, don't go there. Just like if PvPers don't like to fish, or to craft, or to treasure hunt....don't do it if you don't like it!!!

How in the world did you ever, ever get the impression I want new stuff added to Felucca as an incentive to get people who don't PvP to go there and be mass-slaughtered? I never said that and it was the farthest possible thing from my mind when I typed my previous post.

Good grief.

I was merely trying to make the point, as others have tried to do, that very little new content has been added under the Felucca ruleset in YEARS, as compared to the content that's been added under the Trammel ruleset. Maybe the people who enjoy playing there would like something new to fight each other over. Maybe giving them something new to fight each other over would actually do the game some good and bring back some old PvPers, thieves, and people who like the challenge of trying to outthink and outsmart PKs and thieves while playing in the Fel ruleset. How any of that can be construed as meaning I want new content in Felucca so people who don't regularly play there will feel compelled to go there and get in over there heads is truly mind-blowing.

That's all I intended. How in the world you ever got any other impression is really beyond me. How hard is it to understand that not everyone enjoys doing EVERYTHING in UO? Some people who enjoy PvPing don't like fishing or maybe don't like treasure hunting. So they don't do it. But if they want the items that come from doing those things, they might have to be willing to barter with someone who does to get what they want. No one is here to tell them, "Oh, well if you want a forged pardon, go get it yourself. I dare you to go do it and I'm going to stand here and laugh at you and taunt you if you can't." A reasonable person would say, "Hey, I'll trade you this forged pardon for a power scroll, because I know you don't like treasure hunting and you know I don't like doing Felucca champ spawns. Do we have a deal?" Or, "Hey, I'll trade you this Doom artifact for a power scroll? I know you don't like the tedium of getting gold skulls or doing the gauntlet, or maybe the only blue characters you have are horrible hunters. But I can and do go to Doom and I've got something to sell to you from there if you'll sell me a power scroll I need but don't want to try to get because I don't like trying to do Fel champ spawns."

How in the world you interpreted what I said as wanting an incentive to make people feel like they have to go to Felucca to play under a ruleset they don't enjoy is truly beyond me and I'm really disappointed that you thought that is what I was trying to say, Frodo. Vastly disappointed. I wouldn't push for that in a million years. I was only trying to say that the people who enjoy the Fel ruleset have been ignored for quite a while in terms of getting new exclusive content that would give them something to fight each other over.

I apologize for all the repetition in this post. I'm just really mind-boggled how anyone interpreted my post that way. And you of all people, to boot.

Edited to add: And I really can't address why the Abyss champ spawns are not heavily used on every shard by the PvPers. Part of it could be because a whole lot of shards don't have much of a population left to do things anywhere, let alone in two places that aren't easy to get to. If you're trying to get into those champ spawns with a red character, it's not like you can just recall directly into them. Maybe they just aren't that appealing. During the SA beta, the one champ spawn that was somewhat accessible was so bugged that players were placing houses in it and the other one had some serious terrain problems and every time you went there you ended up being stuck and could hardly move and that was in the last week or so of the beta. And the long hallways that led up to them from the rest of the Abyss were added almost as an after-thought. So, to cut things short here, maybe those two champ spawns don't get a whole lot of use because they weren't well thought out and they were put in with little to no player feedback. Then we had the mass layoffs of the people who worked on the SA expansion a month later and after that the depleted team moved on to working on other stuff, like High Seas and boosters. Who was left that could have listened to feedback about those champ spawns and done anything to improve them?

Here are screenshots from the Abyss made during the public beta stage of the SA abyss showing how you got into the two Fel ruleset champ spawn areas at that time and what they looked like during the public beta. (These are from around 8/22/2009.) As you can see, they weren't in very good shape and not set up the same as they are now. The only way you could enter them at that point was in the Abyss by what is now the goblin spawn. As I mentioned above, one of the champ spawn areas was practically impassible, the terrain was so messed up. And the other one had player houses plunked in it and a lot of bad tiles in other locations.


Edited yet again: Here are some more screen shots from even later in the SA beta (these are from 9/1/2009). By then, ONE of the tunnels to an SA champ spawn was open and the other one was still blocked. I'm still tracking down my first screen shots of the Fel-side entrances to see when I got those.

 

[Zosimus]

Gosh darn!

There is more of an underlying issue.

Its not Fel, Tram or any other facet.

Its not trying to figure out solutuons for pvp or pvm

Its about everything and nothing.

The true issue is the game itself.


wait for it....


More players means more action on any facet.

Thats the solution.

Lacking players hurts any facet/shard especially Fel atm.

So the only solution that would make both sides happy

Is to find a way to get more players in UO and everything else would balance out eventually

 

[Zosimus]

OH!!

I should add before somebody rips me or points it out.

I said solution.

I never said it was possible.

But humans can surprise and beat the impossible.