Want to populate Felucca? Increase skillgains by 25% while there.

[Lord Frodo]

Holy cow!!!!

How in the world did you get from what I said the impression that I "really don't want PvP as much as " I "want to raid other players going after an incentive"??

Holy moley.

Did you miss the following part of my post? "I think it's way past time that the dev team worked to add some new content that is exclusive to the Felucca ruleset. It might be just the thing that's needed to lure a lot of ex-players back to UO and give it another try and to perk up current players who enjoy playing under the Felucca ruleset. As Berethrain mentioned, sometimes people just like to change things up. So, whether it's a faction revamp, the return of Order/Chaos, or new and unique land to patrol, fight over, sneak around in, take resources from, etc., it feels like it's way overdue."

I was trying to make the same point that Berethrain was trying to make, i.e., the people who enjoy playing under the Fel ruleset would like something new to look at when they are fighting in Fel against other people who want to be there!

Where in the world did I ever, ever say anything about putting something in Felucca as a way to lure people who really don't want to be there so they can be bait for someone who regularly plays in Fel??

I said if you don't like the ruleset, don't go there. Just like if PvPers don't like to fish, or to craft, or to treasure hunt....don't do it if you don't like it!!!

How in the world did you ever, ever get the impression I want new stuff added to Felucca as an incentive to get people who don't PvP to go there and be mass-slaughtered? I never said that and it was the farthest possible thing from my mind when I typed my previous post.

Good grief.

I was merely trying to make the point, as others have tried to do, that very little new content has been added under the Felucca ruleset in YEARS, as compared to the content that's been added under the Trammel ruleset. Maybe the people who enjoy playing there would like something new to fight each other over. Maybe giving them something new to fight each other over would actually do the game some good and bring back some old PvPers, thieves, and people who like the challenge of trying to outthink and outsmart PKs and thieves while playing in the Fel ruleset. How any of that can be construed as meaning I want new content in Felucca so people who don't regularly play there will feel compelled to go there and get in over there heads is truly mind-blowing.

That's all I intended. How in the world you ever got any other impression is really beyond me. How hard is it to understand that not everyone enjoys doing EVERYTHING in UO? Some people who enjoy PvPing don't like fishing or maybe don't like treasure hunting. So they don't do it. But if they want the items that come from doing those things, they might have to be willing to barter with someone who does to get what they want. No one is here to tell them, "Oh, well if you want a forged pardon, go get it yourself. I dare you to go do it and I'm going to stand here and laugh at you and taunt you if you can't." A reasonable person would say, "Hey, I'll trade you this forged pardon for a power scroll, because I know you don't like treasure hunting and you know I don't like doing Felucca champ spawns. Do we have a deal?" Or, "Hey, I'll trade you this Doom artifact for a power scroll? I know you don't like the tedium of getting gold skulls or doing the gauntlet, or maybe the only blue characters you have are horrible hunters. But I can and do go to Doom and I've got something to sell to you from there if you'll sell me a power scroll I need but don't want to try to get because I don't like trying to do Fel champ spawns."

How in the world you interpreted what I said as wanting an incentive to make people feel like they have to go to Felucca to play under a ruleset they don't enjoy is truly beyond me and I'm really disappointed that you thought that is what I was trying to say, Frodo. Vastly disappointed. I wouldn't push for that in a million years. I was only trying to say that the people who enjoy the Fel ruleset have been ignored for quite a while in terms of getting new exclusive content that would give them something to fight each other over.

I apologize for all the repetition in this post. I'm just really mind-boggled how anyone interpreted my post that way. And you of all people, to boot.

Edited to add: And I really can't address why the Abyss champ spawns are not heavily used on every shard by the PvPers. Part of it could be because a whole lot of shards don't have much of a population left to do things anywhere, let alone in two places that aren't easy to get to. If you're trying to get into those champ spawns with a red character, it's not like you can just recall directly into them. Maybe they just aren't that appealing. During the SA beta, the one champ spawn that was somewhat accessible was so bugged that players were placing houses in it and the other one had some serious terrain problems and every time you went there you ended up being stuck and could hardly move and that was in the last week or so of the beta. And the long hallways that led up to them from the rest of the Abyss were added almost as an after-thought. So, to cut things short here, maybe those two champ spawns don't get a whole lot of use because they weren't well thought out and they were put in with little to no player feedback. Then we had the mass layoffs of the people who worked on the SA expansion a month later and after that the depleted team moved on to working on other stuff, like High Seas and boosters. Who was left that could have listened to feedback about those champ spawns and done anything to improve them?

I thought you did one hell of a job in your write up and stated your side very well, but I do not agree that Fel deserves any new content/shinnies in Fel until they are will to give up all thier other exclusive content to a Tram ruleset or have all shinnies the same in BOTH RULESETS now that would fix everything.

"I think it's way past time that the dev team worked to add some new content that is exclusive to the Felucca ruleset."

IMHO The content PvPers want is shinnies to either draw in PvMers or big ticket items that they can hoard and sell in Luna. They were given 2 new dungeons, do they ever use them? Adding new content to Fel is for the few, while adding new content to Tram ruleset is for all.

Fel had Factions and got the best Arties from it and when UO fixed the points part of it now they don't want them because they have a timer on them. They didn't control towns or any other stuff like they did in the past. They just farmed and faction points, abusing the system, to get the arties. And those were used outside of Factions and even used in Tram ruleset.

How is killing PvMers doing a new spawn considered PvPing, it ain't. They all ready have exclusive shinnies in Fel, but the new mega gold shinnie are in a Tram ruleset where everybody can go and try to get it and IMHO they don't like it. They want the new mega shinnie in Fel or they will not be happy. It would be just like when Power Scrolls came to UO, for how many years did they control, a lot. Now that is drying up because of our population. They could still fight over any Fel Champ Spawn but that is not good enough. Oh and Fel Champ Spaws are not PvP they are PvM and when the PvMers are done then they have to fight the Raiders who call that PvP, it is not. I do not know of any exclusive item that UO could put in Fel that would not require PvMers to do. There is a difference between a Player fighting another Player (PvP) and a group of players (set up for PvP) raiding another group of players (set up for PvM) doing a spawn. And that is what they want. Yes I wish there was a way UO could make PvP more whatever it is that is need but IMHO it will never be good enough unless it is the new mega gold shinnie.

I want a new shinnie put in the New Haven dungeon and here are the rules:

1. If you own a house in Fel then all your accounts are banned from this new dungeon.
2. If you have a PvP char on your account then all your accounts are banned from this new dungeon.
3. If you have a Red on your account then all your accounts are banned from this new dungeon

I even made sure that I could not go there because I have a house in Fel and one of my dexers (Pre-AoS)use to fight other players and he has never been changed. No he is not up to all the godley PvPers in UO today but back then we just used GM Armor/Weps and had fun. No I do not have a Red but I have died to many of them. Now that is an exclusive content dungeon as is IMHO no different then what they want.

 

[Tina Small]

I thought you did one hell of a job in your write up and stated your side very well, but I do not agree that Fel deserves any new content/shinnies in Fel until they are will to give up all thier other exclusive content to a Tram ruleset or have all shinnies the same in BOTH RULESETS now that would fix everything.


IMHO The content PvPers want is shinnies to either draw in PvMers or big ticket items that they can hoard and sell in Luna. They were given 2 new dungeons, do they ever use them? Adding new content to Fel is for the few, while adding new content to Tram ruleset is for all.

Fel had Factions and got the best Arties from it and when UO fixed the points part of it now they don't want them because they have a timer on them. They didn't control towns or any other stuff like they did in the past. They just farmed and faction points, abusing the system, to get the arties. And those were used outside of Factions and even used in Tram ruleset.

How is killing PvMers doing a new spawn considered PvPing, it ain't. They all ready have exclusive shinnies in Fel, but the new mega gold shinnie are in a Tram ruleset where everybody can go and try to get it and IMHO they don't like it. They want the new mega shinnie in Fel or they will not be happy. It would be just like when Power Scrolls came to UO, for how many years did they control, a lot. Now that is drying up because of our population. They could still fight over any Fel Champ Spawn but that is not good enough. Oh and Fel Champ Spaws are not PvP they are PvM and when the PvMers are done then they have to fight the Raiders who call that PvP, it is not. I do not know of any exclusive item that UO could put in Fel that would not require PvMers to do. There is a difference between a Player fighting another Player (PvP) and a group of players (set up for PvP) raiding another group of players (set up for PvM) doing a spawn. And that is what they want. Yes I wish there was a way UO could make PvP more whatever it is that is need but IMHO it will never be good enough unless it is the new mega gold shinnie.

I want a new shinnie put in the New Haven dungeon and here are the rules:

1. If you own a house in Fel then all your accounts are banned from this new dungeon.
2. If you have a PvP char on your account then all your accounts are banned from this new dungeon.
3. If you have a Red on your account then all your accounts are banned from this new dungeon

I even made sure that I could not go there because I have a house in Fel and one of my dexers (Pre-AoS)use to fight other players and he has never been changed. No he is not up to all the godley PvPers in UO today but back then we just used GM Armor/Weps and had fun. No I do not have a Red but I have died to many of them. Now that is an exclusive content dungeon as is IMHO no different then what they want.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. Since 2006 when I first became interested in factions and finally really started spending some time in Felucca, playing with other people who were involved in factions and then also after I started playing on Siege, I've met a number of people who have never struck me as being greedy for power scrolls and other shinies.

When I belonged to a large TB faction guild on Baja and then GL in 2006 and 2007 that was traveling the shards to do factions, we spent a whole lot of our time every week getting sigils, guarding them, going to another base to get them back if someone else was good enough to be able to steal them from our stronghold (*winks at Berethrain*), and then guarding them some more and having a lot of fun fighting at the strongholds or in the faction towns. A lot of the characters in the guild were several years old and red to boot and on GL we shared one house that I owned that was down in the orc valley area. There was no such thing as transfer shields back then--you paid good money to transfer your characters. So very few people in the guild had blue characters on GL that could have had Luna vendors for selling power scrolls. If the guild did do champ spawns or raided them, I'm pretty sure they were almost always fighting well-established PvP guilds and any power scrolls that were obtained were divvied up fairly and if no one wanted them were put in a chest for anyone who needed them to take and use for their own character-building if they decided to start a new character on the shard or change up an existing character's template.

After most members of that guild quit playing UO after the not-so-wonderful KR rollout in mid-2007 and the announcement later that year that the Redwood Shores staff was being laid off and very few were moving to Virginia, I eventually joined another very small guild that was also very much involved in factions and was embarking on its own shard tour to find and fight other faction guilds. Our little guild periodically does Fel champ spawns, but I don't go very often, mostly because I'm not terribly good at PvP and I'm always worried I'll just end up getting a guildmate needlessly killed by doing something dumb in the middle of a fight. In the 5+ years I've been a part of my current guild, I've NEVER seen them set up a vendor for selling power scrolls or other Fel-exclusive "shinies." Never. I think they may have had a vendor on Sonoma for a while to sell excess stuff from guild peerless hunts that no one wanted, but that's all I've ever known them to do. Power scrolls go to guild members and then they sit and gather dust and more dust until someone needs them.

Since I started playing on Siege about 2 years ago, I've met a number of other players who are PvPers and some that are PKs and thieves. And yeah, they sold power and stat scrolls, but they also donated many useful scrolls and other items to the NEW guild. And on Siege, the guilds that consisted of PvPers, PKs, and thieves certainly didn't/don't have absolute and complete control over all the champ spawns and power and stat scrolls. Other guilds on Siege also do the champ spawns and also donate to the NEW or NEW2 guild to help out newcomers to Siege. I definitely got the sense, playing on Siege, that the main reason most of the PKers clobber newcomers to Siege is to get those people to realize it's not always the absolutely horrid experience they assumed it would be (many don't loot at all or only loot lightly, some seem to have a real affinity for footwear and/or leggings) and to give them the urge to come after the PKer some day to try things again and see if they will be the victor the next time, or at least last a little longer before being clobbered.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've certainly met enough people who enjoy PvPing and playing under the Felucca ruleset to make me realize that not everyone who enjoys PvP, whether or not they could also be considered a PKer, plays in Felucca primarily to make themselves and their friends crazy rich off selling Felucca-exclusive items and/or for the purpose of terrorizing people who go there but don't really want to be there. I'm sure there are people who have done just that and will continue to do just that no matter what happens or changes in UO. However, I have a feeling that many of the people you will find playing in Felucca are there primarily because they really enjoythe actual process of fighting other similarly-skilled players or in engaging in more "cat-and-mouse" type activities in Felucca that force you to use your wits and skills to outsmart other players and that have absolutely nothing to do with making anyone any kind of in-game or RL profit or with belittling or taunting/teasing people who don't want to PvP.

Edited to add: I have something else to say too. I was part of the focus group when EA decided to implement the faction artifacts. Do you want to know who most vigorously opposed the introduction of the faction artifacts? People who were already in factions and knew what a mess it might ultimately make of factions. Do you know who were the loudest cheerleaders? Eh, I can't say. But they know who they are and it's really ironic how many times at least one of them has expressed his disregard for "Fellies." So no, there was no universal or unanimous outpouring of gratitude or glee among PvPers when faction artifacts were introduced. I hated the idea of them from the first time I heard of them and really wish they'd never been added so that people became dependent on them. It would have been far better if the interrelationship that existed between Felucca and Trammel before faction artifacts were added could have continued. Artifacts from Doom and other places would have held their value and maybe more players would still be playing today in both Trammel and Felucca.

 

[hen]

PvP generally happens in Felucca when there is something worth fighting for. Champion Spawns facilitated this but now most of the people who fight over them have all the scrolls they need and therefore interest in the spawns has dwindled.
Most of the desired items in this game come from killing a monster. That is why pvp occurs around an essentially pvm encounter.

Factions has died a slow lingering death by a thousand cuts. To foster pvp, something new is required. This could be framed around revamped champion spawns or a replacement for factions. But to encourage a healthy pvp population in Felucca, something is needed for them to fight over.
Some people actively try to encourage Feluccan play by events such as public harrowers as we saw on Drachenfels last Saturday night. I run a Felucca tavern with vendors outside to drum up trade, doing my own little bit to promote interest in the original facet.
Anyone can come to Fel. The only people who can't are young players who can renounce their status. Anyone can take advantage of the double resources, or attempt a champion spawn to get the scrolls they need.
The real problem Felucca has is not that a consensual only facet (and others since) was created, but the manner in which it was done. We are still suffering from the ramifications of the rushed Renaissance 'expansion', and the fractures created then are so fundamental that it is unlikely that they will ever be healed.

 

[Berethrain]

Nice write up. As you said Fel is not for everybody so why would you do all of this so a few may enjoy it. 2 dungeons were added with a Fel ruleset and I really haven't heard anything about any fighting or anything else, is it even used by the PvPers? Placing stuff in a Tram ruleset opens it to all UO players without trying to fourcing people to go to Fel. I know you will not be able to raid the PvMers on your godley PvP char. I find that very interesting that you really don't want PvP as much as you want to raid other players going after an incentive. PvPer V PvPer, no no. PvPer V PvMer working a new spawn, yes yes, this is what we want.

They would do it for everyone. Just because you may not use something added to fel doesn't mean others wouldn't. And yes PVPers still use fel....No one is forced to go to fel either.....The game is voluntary, no one is forced to do anything. You opinion isn't even near being true. It's based on generalizations and falacies.

 

[Lord Frodo]

They would do it for everyone. Just because you may not use something added to fel doesn't mean others wouldn't. And yes PVPers still use fel....No one is forced to go to fel either.....The game is voluntary, no one is forced to do anything. You opinion isn't even near being true. It's based on generalizations and falacies.

LOL You are so funny.
Power Scrolls/Stat Scroll was and still is the #1 BIGGEST game changing items ever, I mean ever, added to UO. This is no generalization or falacy. For how many years did Zerg Guilds control these all under the guise of PvP? LOL If you do not use Power/Stat Scrolls (esp in PvP) you will fall way behind your fellow UO players. This is no generalization or falacy. I know you are all ready to try to lay a line of BS on us all of how you run a 1337 char that has never eaten a PS or SS and he/she is a GOD in PvP.

Yes the demand for PS and SS have declined but it is not because of thier usefulness in UO it is because of a declining palyerbase. They are still very much needed and they still bring in a nice chunk of gold for the populer ones and the new ones.

AoS (you do not want to know what I think those letters stand for) was the #2 game changing event in UO. Yes everybody could go farm all these new items to thier hearts content, even PvPers (and they did) still turned UO into an item based system.

IMHO These two things have done more to hurt UO than any player could have ever done. This destroyed the casual player and prob did more to hurt PvP than any other play style. PvPers are more dependent on PS/SS and Items than any other play style there is.

What this has all lead up to.

1. We do not need anymore items added to split an already fragile playerbase. Adding exclusive content to Fel is not going to bring back players.
2. We do not need to add any new content at all at this time, we have enough shinnies to last us for awhile. Lets fix what is broke first.

1. They (IE UO) need to fix what is bugging UO. Already started, but has a long way to go.
2. They need to balance all of UO, not just PvPers. Already started and has a very long way to go. Both sides of the fence (PvP and PvM) need to be considered equally when doing this. We the playerbase can help with this as long as we work together and have.
3. They need to fix the EC. Yes, this coming from a die hard CC/UOA user. The only thing I use UOA for anymore is filling BODs. I am sure that UO could figure a way to make the most used UOA Macros work the same way using the EC. Graphice selection to include CC/EC/KR. Make the EC a lot more user friendly and a detailed user guide. Upgrade the Graphics in the EC/KR part with some ideas from the players. Do not touch our CC Graphics. There are some outstanding MODs out there for the EC but I don't want the entire MOD, only parts of it. UO needs a way to offer the parts of a MOD and even make a space in UO for these to be stored, this should not be up to the MODDERS to store all this info. Stop the on again and off agian and just fix it so all users will want to use it. ONE client to bind them all.
4. New player experience. Started and still a ways to go. Include all skills and make the New Haven Dungeon more like the old Despise Dungeon.
5. The BIGGIE stop the bleading of current players and get us new players. BIGGER and BETTER Graphics for those that want it (refer to #3), this is what new kids look for, the POP or WOW factor. A more user friendly UI. Better New player experience. Better starting gear and a little more money.

 

[Tina Small]

What this has all lead up to.

1. We do not need anymore items added to split an already fragile playerbase. Adding exclusive content to Fel is not going to bring back players.
2. We do not need to add any new content at all at this time, we have enough shinnies to last us for awhile. Lets fix what is broke first.

1. They (IE UO) need to fix what is bugging UO. Already started, but has a long way to go.
2. They need to balance all of UO, not just PvPers. Already started and has a very long way to go. Both sides of the fence (PvP and PvM) need to be considered equally when doing this. We the playerbase can help with this as long as we work together and have.
3. They need to fix the EC. Yes, this coming from a die hard CC/UOA user. The only thing I use UOA for anymore is filling BODs. I am sure that UO could figure a way to make the most used UOA Macros work the same way using the EC. Graphice selection to include CC/EC/KR. Make the EC a lot more user friendly and a detailed user guide. Upgrade the Graphics in the EC/KR part with some ideas from the players. Do not touch our CC Graphics. There are some outstanding MODs out there for the EC but I don't want the entire MOD, only parts of it. UO needs a way to offer the parts of a MOD and even make a space in UO for these to be stored, this should not be up to the MODDERS to store all this info. Stop the on again and off agian and just fix it so all users will want to use it. ONE client to bind them all.
4. New player experience. Started and still a ways to go. Include all skills and make the New Haven Dungeon more like the old Despise Dungeon.
5. The BIGGIE stop the bleading of current players and get us new players. BIGGER and BETTER Graphics for those that want it (refer to #3), this is what new kids look for, the POP or WOW factor. A more user friendly UI. Better New player experience. Better starting gear and a little more money.

Where do you stand on having EA do something about the dismal state of factions? Kill it completely or replace it with something else? And if they keep it, what do they do to it to keep people involved with it? If they replace it, what does it look like so that people who like to PvP want to get involved with it and stay involved with it, without simultaneously making people who don't PvP insanely jealous and causing yet another split in the playerbase? Factions right now is so borked that I've completely lost interest in it. I don't use faction artifacts. But if I use my thief to go steal sigils and then put them back in town, I earn kill points and rank and get silver and pretty soon someone else on the shard who is still in the same faction but not playing a thief and unable to find sufficient enemy factioneers to kill and get points is wondering why they can't wear their armor anymore. My decision to play in factions penalizes someone in the same faction. It makes no sense and has completely ruined the experience for me and I'd really like to see it fixed.

 

[Berethrain]

LOL You are so funny.
Power Scrolls/Stat Scroll was and still is the #1 BIGGEST game changing items ever, I mean ever, added to UO. This is no generalization or falacy. For how many years did Zerg Guilds control these all under the guise of PvP? LOL If you do not use Power/Stat Scrolls (esp in PvP) you will fall way behind your fellow UO players. This is no generalization or falacy. I know you are all ready to try to lay a line of BS on us all of how you run a 1337 char that has never eaten a PS or SS and he/she is a GOD in PvP.

Yes the demand for PS and SS have declined but it is not because of thier usefulness in UO it is because of a declining palyerbase. They are still very much needed and they still bring in a nice chunk of gold for the populer ones and the new ones.

AoS (you do not want to know what I think those letters stand for) was the #2 game changing event in UO. Yes everybody could go farm all these new items to thier hearts content, even PvPers (and they did) still turned UO into an item based system.

IMHO These two things have done more to hurt UO than any player could have ever done. This destroyed the casual player and prob did more to hurt PvP than any other play style. PvPers are more dependent on PS/SS and Items than any other play style there is.

What this has all lead up to.

1. We do not need anymore items added to split an already fragile playerbase. Adding exclusive content to Fel is not going to bring back players.
2. We do not need to add any new content at all at this time, we have enough shinnies to last us for awhile. Lets fix what is broke first.

1. They (IE UO) need to fix what is bugging UO. Already started, but has a long way to go.
2. They need to balance all of UO, not just PvPers. Already started and has a very long way to go. Both sides of the fence (PvP and PvM) need to be considered equally when doing this. We the playerbase can help with this as long as we work together and have.
3. They need to fix the EC. Yes, this coming from a die hard CC/UOA user. The only thing I use UOA for anymore is filling BODs. I am sure that UO could figure a way to make the most used UOA Macros work the same way using the EC. Graphice selection to include CC/EC/KR. Make the EC a lot more user friendly and a detailed user guide. Upgrade the Graphics in the EC/KR part with some ideas from the players. Do not touch our CC Graphics. There are some outstanding MODs out there for the EC but I don't want the entire MOD, only parts of it. UO needs a way to offer the parts of a MOD and even make a space in UO for these to be stored, this should not be up to the MODDERS to store all this info. Stop the on again and off agian and just fix it so all users will want to use it. ONE client to bind them all.
4. New player experience. Started and still a ways to go. Include all skills and make the New Haven Dungeon more like the old Despise Dungeon.
5. The BIGGIE stop the bleading of current players and get us new players. BIGGER and BETTER Graphics for those that want it (refer to #3), this is what new kids look for, the POP or WOW factor. A more user friendly UI. Better New player experience. Better starting gear and a little more money.

Why side step a response that directly qoutes yours and then assign a different argument to it? Yeah powerscrolls were a big thing and pretty succesfull, but so were the the other expansions made to trammel.

You think because fel got power scrolls it is all they should get or because trammel doesn't have them? Perhaps I miss your point.

And I'm unsure what your point is about AOS, are you implying it was for fel only? If so, that's pretty off base I'd say. But maybe you're referring to champ arties?

but lets go over the rest.

1. It's not even about items. Give us a new pvp system. I'd be happy...at this point maybe even chaos/order if done properly.
2. I honestly don't know what to say to this, you're content with status quo so everyone should be, let alone the most recent content being mostly trammel?
3. I've not used the EC much, didn't see much of a benefit, but originally it came with a good deal of lag. Not sure if it was server or client side, but I've avoided it since. Heard Pincos is a great add on for it though.
4. This one we can both agree on, the new player experience has been terrible. One of the solutions now is to give them a adv char or mythic token? I don't remember which, pretty sure that's not the answer though. (They could have spent more time on new player guides/quests in game or reimplement the seer/companion program).
5. I'm not sure if people are leaving because of lack of new players. I'd think they were leaving because of boredom or bigger and better things (games).

There are many things we don't agree,and some of which we do. But I don't think any of the previously stated reason by other players are justifications not to look into fel content. I.e. the arguments because tammel doesn't get the item/content, the bait argument, leaving players, etc etc.

I know other games would have probably started to consolidate shards a long time ago....and I've seen them successfully do it and I've helped with a couple games I GMed for.

But at this point in time, I'm thinking of trying GW2 and waiting for elder scrolls online to come out. So, I guess add or don't add, we've seen what trammel expansions have done, and looks like it's still a downhill slide.

 

[Berethrain]

Where do you stand on having EA do something about the dismal state of factions? Kill it completely or replace it with something else? And if they keep it, what do they do to it to keep people involved with it? If they replace it, what does it look like so that people who like to PvP want to get involved with it and stay involved with it, without simultaneously making people who don't PvP insanely jealous and causing yet another split in the playerbase? Factions right now is so borked that I've completely lost interest in it. I don't use faction artifacts. But if I use my thief to go steal sigils and then put them back in town, I earn kill points and rank and get silver and pretty soon someone else on the shard who is still in the same faction but not playing a thief and unable to find sufficient enemy factioneers to kill and get points is wondering why they can't wear their armor anymore. My decision to play in factions penalizes someone in the same faction. It makes no sense and has completely ruined the experience for me and I'd really like to see it fixed.

Tina, what shard you play on and is factions active? I may transfer a char there before the accounts time run out, and try it.

 

[Merus]

Personally I think the couple of changes the dev team have already mentioned will be all Fel needs to get some action going again, provided they don't screw it up. Revamped faction/order/chaos or whatever... We need a system to consent to pvp anywhere anytime. Revamp the champ spawns, that means monsters, bosses and rewards.

If these two things are done well, with appropriate input from the fel community we should be set for a while. Lets just hope there are more than 3 people left in that community by the time they get around to it.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Where do you stand on having EA do something about the dismal state of factions? Kill it completely or replace it with something else? And if they keep it, what do they do to it to keep people involved with it? If they replace it, what does it look like so that people who like to PvP want to get involved with it and stay involved with it, without simultaneously making people who don't PvP insanely jealous and causing yet another split in the playerbase?

WOW Opens up a BIG can of worms. LOL
Faction Names/ Number of: TBD
Not all Towns/Cities are Faction Towns.

• Faction Towns/Cities: Minoc, Vesper, Cove, Yew, Trinsic I left all Towns/Cities that are on Islands out and Brit because this is a good place for people new to Fel to start in.
• Faction Towns/Cities will have a warning come up just like the cities do now when entering/leaving thier boundries/limits but will say "You are entering/leaving Faction (Town/City Name) or Faction Base (Name)"

There are no Dungeons in Factions.
There are no Islands in Factions.
There is no Tram in Factions.

Faction Bases are located outside of any and all Towns/Cities and located in out of the way places.

• Faction Towns/Cities Boundries/Limits will be expanded, but will not include any player houses, islands or Dungeons. We may need to fill some swamps to do this.
• Boundries/Limits same as Towns/Cities with Teleporters like Jheloms(at a cost TBD) to Towns/Cities held by that Faction.
• NO GUARD ZONES
• Faction Artie Vending Machine NP, but guess what, the minute you step out of a Faction Zone your Faction Arties fall into your backpack. Faction Arties will only work inside of Faction Boundries/Limits.
• Faction Points can be whatever you want them to be because of the restrictions now placed on the Arties.

I think you get my drift. What happens in Factions stays in Factions just like What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Lets make Factions about Factions and not about Faction Arties that can be used/abused by the player base.

Order/Chaos I would have to read up on it but it would have to have the same restrictions placed on it too.

I am all in favor of Factions or Order/Chaos or whatever you want to call it just as long as it can not be abuse or allowed outside that system.

I guess you can take it from some of my posting lately that I really want UO to go to a more balanced system for all UO players.
We do not need more land spreading out the player base even more.
We do not need more shinnies, we have enough to go around right now.
We do not need more content ATM.
I have already stated what IMHO we as a group need ATM.

This game is and has been for a while becoming more and more stressful and I find myself more on the boards then playing UO, and to me that is very very sad. We need balance and enjoyment for all not just the selected few.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Why side step a response that directly qoutes yours and then assign a different argument to it? Yeah powerscrolls were a big thing and pretty succesfull, but so were the the other expansions made to trammel.

You think because fel got power scrolls it is all they should get or because trammel doesn't have them? Perhaps I miss your point.

And I'm unsure what your point is about AOS, are you implying it was for fel only? If so, that's pretty off base I'd say. But maybe you're referring to champ arties?

but lets go over the rest.

1. It's not even about items. Give us a new pvp system. I'd be happy...at this point maybe even chaos/order if done properly.
2. I honestly don't know what to say to this, you're content with status quo so everyone should be, let alone the most recent content being mostly trammel?
3. I've not used the EC much, didn't see much of a benefit, but originally it came with a good deal of lag. Not sure if it was server or client side, but I've avoided it since. Heard Pincos is a great add on for it though.
4. This one we can both agree on, the new player experience has been terrible. One of the solutions now is to give them a adv char or mythic token? I don't remember which, pretty sure that's not the answer though. (They could have spent more time on new player guides/quests in game or reimplement the seer/companion program).
5. I'm not sure if people are leaving because of lack of new players. I'd think they were leaving because of boredom or bigger and better things (games).

There are many things we don't agree,and some of which we do. But I don't think any of the previously stated reason by other players are justifications not to look into fel content. I.e. the arguments because tammel doesn't get the item/content, the bait argument, leaving players, etc etc.

I know other games would have probably started to consolidate shards a long time ago....and I've seen them successfully do it and I've helped with a couple games I GMed for.

But at this point in time, I'm thinking of trying GW2 and waiting for elder scrolls online to come out. So, I guess add or don't add, we've seen what trammel expansions have done, and looks like it's still a downhill slide.

I guess maybe you should ask Tina to explain it to you then because I think I was very clear in answering your question why exclusive content should not be added to Fel. And please don't try to BS me or anybody else with this

It's not even about items.

when all we have to do is look at your post here and in other threads. You are all about exclusive content and exclusive shinnies.

 

[Berethrain]

I guess maybe you should ask Tina to explain it to you then because I think I was very clear in answering your question why exclusive content should not be added to Fel. And please don't try to BS me or anybody else with this
when all we have to do is look at your post here and in other threads. You are all about exclusive content and exclusive shinnies.

Here lets go over the post you think you explained it in.

You say all PVPers want is big ticket items in fel to sell in luna. No, we want something designed to make fel interesting or stimulating. It doesn't even have to be non consensual.

Yes, it is not about items. It is about a pvp system or content i.e. incentives. I am not asking for pixel crack or i would go to trammel.

Your next point was that adding something to fel is for a few, trammel is for all. No, any content added to the game is for all. Look at fishing. Just because they added content to fishing doesn't mean it wasn't for everyone even though not everyone does it.

Faction Arties: People did not care about the timers, in fact some even wanted the timers like faction armor used to have. What they didn't want is the high silver requirements to get the items with the only way to decrease the silver requirements to have high rank. BUT, when you botch the points system a bad as they did, they will always cost a lot of silver. I think some pieces were 50k silver. PASS.

The generalizations and falacies were your argument that all pvpers want is to force people to go to fel ( again there is no such thing as forcing people to go anywhere in UO) and that all they want is to raid pvmers or slaughter sheep.

If there is anything else I can address let me know.

We simply do not agree here, I jus find your arguments weak.


ETA: Peope abusing faction arties were Trammies. PVpers wanted them to expire / or fall off when entering trammel etc.

 

[Lord Frodo]

ETA: Peope abusing faction arties were Trammies. PVpers wanted them to expire / or fall off when entering trammel etc.

So that is what all those threads were about when they changed the Factions Arties. It was all the PvPers tell UO thank you for fixing this. WOW I stand corrected, thank you for telling me this and the rest of the playerbase and UOStratics what all those threads really ment.

 

[Berethrain]

So that is what all those threads were about when they changed the Factions Arties. It was all the PvPers tell UO thank you for fixing this. WOW I stand corrected, thank you for telling me this and the rest of the playerbase and UOStratics what all those threads really ment.

Way to ingore an entire post when it derailed your argument.

You go with the very last line? And no...not all faction arty threads were about timers.....again you generalize.

I will even admit not everyone wanted the timers, though originally I think I said some anyways.

Quit sidestepping and avoiding the subject.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Here lets go over the post you think you explained it in.

You say all PVPers want is big ticket items in fel to sell in luna. No, we want something designed to make fel interesting or stimulating. It doesn't even have to be non consensual.BS

Yes, it is not about items. It is about a pvp system or content i.e. incentives. I am not asking for pixel crack or i would go to trammel.BS

Your next point was that adding something to fel is for a few, trammel is for all. No, any content added to the game is for all. Look at fishing. Just because they added content to fishing doesn't mean it wasn't for everyone even though not everyone does it.BS

Faction Arties: People did not care about the timers, in fact some even wanted the timers like faction armor used to have. What they didn't want is the high silver requirements to get the items with the only way to decrease the silver requirements to have high rank. BUT, when you botch the points system a bad as they did, they will always cost a lot of silver. I think some pieces were 50k silver. PASS.The biggest BS

The generalizations and falacies were your argument that all pvpers want is to force people to go to fel ( again there is no such thing as forcing people to go anywhere in UO) and that all they want is to raid pvmers or slaughter sheep.BS

If there is anything else I can address let me know.

We simply do not agree here, I jus find your arguments weak.


ETA: Peope abusing faction arties were Trammies. PVpers wanted them to expire / or fall off when entering trammel etc.BS

 

[Sneaky Que]

A) Won't work, nobody will go, at least not for any skill that can't be macroed safely in town.

B) I don't really care if Felucca stays empty and don't see why there should be any obligation to force people to go.

The notion that the developers just need to make a certain change and then the carebears will come to Felucca and discover all the fun and excitement and stick around to "populate" it is one of the most abiding and insane Feluccan fantasies. It's empty, it's always been empty, it'll be empty forever, nobody else likes it, deal with it.

Just found this thread with Google, so forgive the very late reply.

Fel, or Britannia as it was once known, has not "always been empty." Far from it in fact! Fel is the only reason UO actually made it as an MMO and it's because of those early years as a Fel/Britannia only ruleset that the game is the record-setter that it is today. Without Fel there would be no Tram, the Tram that you seem to love so much. There wouldn't be ANYTHING, there would be no UO without Fel. The biggest increases in UO's subscribers came during the 90s when there was no Tram. I know it's hard for people like you to accept, but the fact is that the Fel ruleset made UO and introducing Tram drove hundreds of thousands of players away from the game for good. The declining player numbers in EA's UO today (in 2015) are because of that fatal decision over a decade ago to listen to a minority of players and introduce Tram. Ever since most of those old/potential players have played elsewhere...

 

[OREOGL]

Oh the dreaded thread necro. This should be interesting.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Oh the dreaded thread necro. This should be interesting.

*Uus Corp*

 

[Vor]

Wasn't the peak of player population after AoS?

Not saying you're wrong. Wasn't around during the days of the tram/fel split to be able to comment. Just I'm fairly sure I heard once that the peak was after AoS.

 

[Gamer_Goblin]

 

[Lord Frodo]

Wasn't the peak of player population after AoS?

Not saying you're wrong. Wasn't around during the days of the tram/fel split to be able to comment. Just I'm fairly sure I heard once that the peak was after AoS.

The heyday was post Tram and pre Age of wxyz. After Age of wxyz pop started to drop off and has never stopped dropping.

 

[Spock's Beard]

Fel, or Britannia as it was once known, has not "always been empty." Far from it in fact! Fel is the only reason UO actually made it as an MMO and it's because of those early years as a Fel/Britannia only ruleset that the game is the record-setter that it is today. Without Fel there would be no Tram, the Tram that you seem to love so much. There wouldn't be ANYTHING, there would be no UO without Fel. The biggest increases in UO's subscribers came during the 90s when there was no Tram.

UO grew rapidly in the nineties when it was brand new and there was pretty much zero competition.

I know it's hard for people like you to accept, but the fact is that the Fel ruleset made UO and introducing Tram drove hundreds of thousands of players away from the game for good. The declining player numbers in EA's UO today (in 2015) are because of that fatal decision over a decade ago to listen to a minority of players and introduce Tram. Ever since most of those old/potential players have played elsewhere...

Whatever dude, nobody cares. Trammel was introduced, Felucca imploded instantly, and it never recorvered. The game went on to continue growing for several more years afterward and has enjoyed an extremely long and healthy existence, such that even now in 2015 we have a live events team and an expansion in the works. Meanwhile every PVP game cooked up to "recapture that old UO magic" was some kind of miserable and obscure failure by comparison.

Nobody cares. Nobody ever cared. That magical moment you've been waiting so long for, where EA would come to regret throwing the PKs under the bus all the way back during the Clinton Administration, just plain never arrived. It never happened. The carebears won. Deal with reality.

Just in case you're inclined to argue, here are a couple of quotations on the topic from former UO developer Calandryll, speaking informally, years after leaving the game and taking a different job.

"The thing PKs need to understand is that their playstyle was driving people out of the game - in droves. (...) I didn’t see PKing as that big of a deal. Until I came to OSI and saw the effect on UO's subscribers and saw just how many people were in fact upset about and quitting over it."

"What isn't really debatable though is that Trammel did have a positive affect on UO's subscriber numbers. (...) Trammel absolutely made UO's subscriber numbers better in both the short and long term."

Here is a link to the first quote, and here is a link to the second. That's the same forum Mark Jacobs was posting at when he ran Mythic, and everyone at Stratics got mad that he was posting there instead of here. You may need to register if you want to access those quotes directly, but for god's sake don't start posting because I absolutely guarantee that nobody there wants to hear it.

TLDR: You're wrong and everyone knows it.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Wasn't the peak of player population after AoS?

Not saying you're wrong. Wasn't around during the days of the tram/fel split to be able to comment. Just I'm fairly sure I heard once that the peak was after AoS.

As you can see from that chart, UO with only Fel ruleset (up until around mid 2000) gained the biggest increase in subscribers. From launch to Ren (Tram) the subs went from 0 to aprox 175-200k. After Ren UO only gained aprox 50k and then went into a steady decline. AoS did see the peak in numbers but then it went down fast. One fact is unquestionable: UO's subscribers never went down under a Fel only ruleset, all of the declines have been after Ren (Tram).

 

[Sneaky Que]

UO grew rapidly in the nineties when it was brand new and there was pretty much zero competition.



Whatever dude, nobody cares. Trammel was introduced, Felucca imploded instantly, and it never recorvered. The game went on to continue growing for several more years afterward and has enjoyed an extremely long and healthy existence, such that even now in 2015 we have a live events team and an expansion in the works. Meanwhile every PVP game cooked up to "recapture that old UO magic" was some kind of miserable and obscure failure by comparison.

Such as those Fel only ruleset shards that exist today and have far bigger populations than even Atlantic? I'd love to be more specific but I'm sure you know of which I speak.

Nobody cares. Nobody ever cared. That magical moment you've been waiting so long for, where EA would come to regret throwing the PKs under the bus all the way back during the Clinton Administration, just plain never arrived. It never happened. The carebears won. Deal with reality.

The reality is UO lost, EA lost. Again I would love to be more specific... I don't think we're allowed to talk about them, but the proof is out there.

Just in case you're inclined to argue, here are a couple of quotations on the topic from former UO developer Calandryll, speaking informally, years after leaving the game and taking a different job.

Here is a link to the first quote, and here is a link to the second. That's the same forum Mark Jacobs was posting at when he ran Mythic, and everyone at Stratics got mad that he was posting there instead of here. You may need to register if you want to access those quotes directly, but for god's sake don't start posting because I absolutely guarantee that nobody there wants to hear it.

TLDR: You're wrong and everyone knows it.

I will see your quote and raise you another...

"Being safe from evil is, in my mind, an uneven tradeoff for the fact that you don't get to be heroes anymore, in that you can just opt out of fighting evil. It may be nobody wants to be heroes except when it doesn't count, when it isn't challenging, that people would rather fight 'pretend evil' than the real thing, but I don't personally believe that. I still think people are better than that." -Raph Koster (UO Lead Designer)

 

[cazador]

Guys/Gals...UO is a dying niche game. Seriously, it has no oomph left and probably never will. Quit the constant gripe and moan Fel/Tram discussions. We're led by a ******* out of touch "group" and I say group lightly..if you want real UO without the toilets/bath tubs/soon to be electrical outlets and other useless **** they implement just because they lack any true creativity..go to free shards! The pvp is better, the devs care..and its FREE. Just like UO should have been made YEARSSSSS ago..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lord Frodo]

As you can see from that chart, UO with only Fel ruleset (up until around mid 2000) gained the biggest increase in subscribers. From launch to Ren (Tram) the subs went from 0 to aprox 175-200k. After Ren UO only gained aprox 50k and then went into a steady decline. AoS did see the peak in numbers but then it went down fast. One fact is unquestionable: UO's subscribers never went down under a Fel only ruleset, all of the declines have been after Ren (Tram).

So you use a chart from somebodies guess work as your proof and ignore the reports that had UO dropping in subs pre Tram and then increasing Post Tram all the way past Age of **** and it was reported that UO subs just before Age of **** was 350K. Sorry if it hurts you to know that UO would have died if it were not for Tram. But you keep those Rose Colored Glasses handy and for the rest of us that were there and know what really happened we will just keep the truth alive.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Guys/Gals...UO is a dying niche game. Seriously, it has no oomph left and probably never will. Quit the constant gripe and moan Fel/Tram discussions. We're led by a moronic out of touch "group" and I say group lightly..if you want real UO without the toilets/bath tubs/soon to be electrical outlets and other useless **** they implement just because they lack any true creativity..go to free shards! The pvp is better, the devs care..and its FREE. Just like UO should have been made YEARSSSSS ago..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh dont get me wrong, I LOVE UO. It is a credit to UO as a game that it was able to survive the Tram disaster. Most games would have crumbled very soon after such a mistake. For the first time in a very long time (since Origin really) it seems like the Devs do actually care. It may be a small team but they are making an effort. I'd rather a small but dedicated team to a large and uncaring team like we had during the EA years. EA outsourcing UO to Broadsword has been very good for UO IMO. As for PvP, I'm really enjoying VvV atm and still spend about 90% of my play time in Fel, so it's not all bad. In fact Fel is by far the most active facet on my shard (Oceania) and has seen a huge increase in use since VvV was brought in.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Such as those Fel only ruleset shards that exist today and have far bigger populations than even Atlantic? I'd love to be more specific but I'm sure you know of which I speak.

You mean the few that are left, LMAO. And lets compare an Apple that you have to pay for and an Orange you get for free. If those free UOs charged then they would not exist. The only reason you play there is because they are free. And by the way their populations are dying along with their original support teams too, so do not try to make it sound like a bed of roses for them.

 

[Sneaky Que]

So you use a chart from somebodies guess work as your proof and ignore the reports that had UO dropping in subs pre Tram and then increasing Post Tram all the way past Age of $hit and it was reported that UO subs just before Age of $hit was 350K. Sorry if it hurts you to know that UO would have died if it were not for Tram. But you keep those Rose Colored Glasses handy and for the rest of us that were there and know what really happened we will just keep the truth alive.

No I don't just use that chart, I was playing on Napa back in the pre Tram days. I KNOW exactly how good it was. Kinda sucked playing on a US shard from Aus with a 56k dial up con, but it was still so fun! Every day pre Tram UO had more and more players joining. You can deny that if you wish but it's the reality. If you think UO would have died if not for Tram, then can you explain why UO's subs never declined before Tram? Can you explain why the most popular place to play UO is a Fel only ruleset that has far more players than even Atlantic?

 

[MalagAste]

This won't populate fel. It will bring people there to hide in houses long enough to script their characters, (probably accessed/friended to houses there nonetheless) .

I'll pass thanks.

Exactly what I was thinking. They would be in towns or houses. Oh besides the obvious.... so you want to lure people with NO SKILLS to fel to slaughter them like lambs??? Yes because this would make PvP super exciting to kill a newb...

Oi.

 

[Sneaky Que]

You mean the few that are left, LMAO. And lets compare an Apple that you have to pay for and an Orange you get for free. If those free UOs charged then they would not exist. The only reason you play there is because they are free. And by the way their populations are dying along with their original support teams too, so do not try to make it sound like a bed of roses for them.

Ok. Hopefully Stratics will let me post this. There are Fel free shards and Tram free shards. The most popular free shard is a Fel only shard and has far more players than Atlantic. The Fel free shards are far more poplar than the tram free shards and even the paid official shards.

 

[Spock's Beard]

arf arf arf

You've already had verbatim quotes from a UO developer of the era, speaking freely and directly about the effect of Trammel on subscriber retention. They state that PK was driving away "droves" of players and that it "can't be debated" that Tram's effect on subscribers was positive. Period.

Game over. You can sit here and bark at the moon all you want, but who do you really think is going to care? It's 2015 and if anyone in the MMO industry were ever going to give a @#$% how many people you have paying $0 on some freeshard, it would have happened by now.

Spoiler alert: It didn't.

 

[Zuckuss]

I just wanted to stop in ask that we do not get into any detail about free shards. We can mention the existence of them, give your opinion on them, but please lets keep any specifics about them out of the thread. Thank you.

 

[OREOGL]

Ok. Hopefully Stratics will let me post this. There are Fel free shards and Tram free shards. The most popular free shard is a Fel only shard and has far more players than Atlantic. The Fel free shards are far more poplar than the tram free shards and even the paid official shards.

Didn't they do something recently to axe free shards?

 

[Spock's Beard]

I know a WoW freeshard with a sustained five-figure online population. It's just like real WoW except it's out of date and has a ton of massive bugs. Tons of people though. According to people like SQ, Blizzard should look at that and start adding bugs to real WoW on purpose. After all, it couldn't be populated just because it's free.

 

[Sneaky Que]

You've already had verbatim quotes from a UO developer of the era, speaking freely and directly about the effect of Trammel on subscriber retention. They state that PK was driving away "droves" of players and that it "can't be debated" that Tram's effect on subscribers was positive. Period.

Game over. You can sit here and bark at the moon all you want, but who do you really think is going to care? It's 2015 and if anyone in the MMO industry were ever going to give a @#$% how many people you have paying $0 on some freeshard, it would have happened by now.

Spoiler alert: It didn't.

And you ignored the quote from the legendary UO lead designer of the era, Your entire argument has been systematically picked apart. Just face it mate, Tram was a huge mistake. A UO dev vs the LEAD DESIGNER... seriously man you might want to find someone better to quote. Raph Koster is a legend in the MMO industry, I think I'll take his word for it and my own experiences over yours lol

 

[Sneaky Que]

I know a WoW freeshard with a sustained five-figure online population. It's just like real WoW except it's out of date and has a ton of massive bugs. Tons of people though. According to people like SQ, Blizzard should look at that and start adding bugs to real WoW on purpose. After all, it couldn't be populated just because it's free.

Then why aren't the Tram free shards bigger than the Fel free shards?? Does them being free explain that? Didn't think so.

 

[Sneaky Que]

I just wanted to stop in ask that we do not get into any detail about free shards. We can mention the existence of them, give your opinion on them, but please lets keep any specifics about them out of the thread. Thank you.

Noted. Will do.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Going to sleep lol (it's quite late here in Aus) will reply if needed tomorrow.

 

[THP]

ERM felluca is the new tram on quiet shards... same /same... no reds.. enjoy the trammel part 2

 

[Spock's Beard]

And you ignored the quote from the legendary UO lead designer of the era, Your entire argument has been systematically picked apart. Just face it mate, Tram was a huge mistake. A UO dev vs the LEAD DESIGNER... seriously man you might want to find someone better to quote. Raph Koster is a legend in the MMO industry, I think I'll take his word for it and my own experiences over yours lol

You mean that stupid quote that makes absolutely no reference whatsoever to subscriptions or subscriber retention? There isn't even anything to argue against in that quote, it's nothing but him giving a subjective opinion. This is seriously the best you can do? Don't you find that a little bit telling?

Face it chuckles, you've now seen a former UO dev straight-up say that Trammel was good for the game's subscriber numbers, and the best counter-argument you can come up with is a quote that doesn't even mention subscribers at all. That's called losing an argument.

Then why aren't the Tram free shards bigger than the Fel free shards?? Does them being free explain that? Didn't think so.

Because players who like Trammel still have real UO to play? Because players who hate PK garbage have an entire MMO industry's worth of newer games to play? Because the entire freeshard scene is basically nothing but a haven for PK rejects with nowhere better to go now that the MMO genre has left them behind?

I mean if anyone actually wanted that sort of total free-for-all PK nonsense you'd think there would be a successful MMO based on it by now. Instead garbage like Shadowbane and Darkfall flopped horribly, and even now fifteen years later all people like you have to talk about are your stupid freeshards. Guess what, nobody cares. The years have passed, history has been written, and the part where anyone cared about the population of your PK freeshard never happened.

 

[MalagAste]

You mean that stupid quote that makes absolutely no reference whatsoever to subscriptions or subscriber retention? There isn't even anything to argue against in that quote, it's nothing but him giving a subjective opinion. This is seriously the best you can do? Don't you find that a little bit telling?

Face it chuckles, you've now seen a former UO dev straight-up say that Trammel was good for the game's subscriber numbers, and the best counter-argument you can come up with is a quote that doesn't even mention subscribers at all. That's called losing an argument.



Because players who like Trammel still have real UO to play? Because players who hate PK garbage have an entire MMO industry's worth of newer games to play? Because the entire freeshard scene is basically nothing but a haven for PK rejects with nowhere better to go now that the MMO genre has left them behind?

I mean if anyone actually wanted that sort of total free-for-all PK nonsense you'd think there would be a successful MMO based on it by now. Instead garbage like Shadowbane and Darkfall flopped horribly, and even now fifteen years later all people like you have to talk about are your stupid freeshards. Guess what, nobody cares. The years have passed, history has been written, and the part where anyone cared about the population of your PK freeshard never happened.

Exactly what I keep saying. Even if they built a "pre-tram" shard with 100% exactness to early UO it will NEVER be like UO. First off everyone would think Ooo Awsome until they remembered why Trammel was built... I'd give it about 3 months for the nostalgia to wear off then the only ones left will be the PK wannabe's... The regular players will go back to playing what they like as they will hate not being able to custom their house and have their uber suits and all and there will be no "lambs" to slaughter since everyone will have the choice not to play there. Back in the day there were always lambs to slaughter and easy targets to pick on because new players had NO CHOICE but to be a lamb... but with several regular shards to chose they will NOT chose to be a lamb. The novelty will wear off quite quickly and only the choice few will remain... But then they will cry, whine and moan that they have no one to PK and will quit and the shard would die within 6months.

Maybe if they did something like that once a year or so... for a month or so some special shard or something yes might be fun for a wee bit... but for the most part... no.

 

[OREOGL]

Wonders when this thread will be locked..

 

[Jirel of Joiry]

Wonders when this thread will be locked..

You and me both, Brother.

 

[Great DC]

Lol this whole thread is like a republican who wont vote for a bill cause a democrat wrote it, even if the bill makes complete sense. Theyll turn their head cause they are the opposite party. Pvpers Vs Trammies is same thing. The reason nothing gets better in UO is cause you people cant get together and work it out without stepping on each other. Such a divided community, so sad.

 

[Uvtha]

like lambs to the Slater.

"Bring them to me".

 

[Flutter]

Why was this thread necro'd? Is there not enough to argue about on the UHall?

 

[Nexus]

There's always room for more arguing on UHall! Wouldn't want the mods to get bored now would we?

 

[Longtooths]

Wonders when this thread will be locked..

I do not want it lock, even though I have absolutely no interest in this thread. So long as no one is breaking the ROC all threads should stay open. Do you really want threads locked with some arbitrary Stratics volunteer thinks it has run its course? Or they use ESP to determine that it will go bad some time in the future?



I for one am glad there is less moderation and locking of threads that have no ROC violations.

 

[OREOGL]

I do not want it lock, even though I have absolutely no interest in this thread. So long as no one is breaking the ROC all threads should stay open. Do you really want threads locked with some arbitrary Stratics volunteer thinks it has run its course? Or they use ESP to determine that it will go bad some time in the future?



I for one am glad there is less moderation and locking of threads that have no ROC violations.

I had to chuckle, you remember that happening too?