The One and Only Pre-UOR Thread! Update -- 3 Polls of Results

[Spelunk]

<blockquote><hr>

...and not a single one of them offer the Free for All PvP that you, and a minority of posters here on Stratics swear is what makes UO great.

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh*

That's a complete misrepresentation. NOBODY is talking about free for all PvP. Pre-UO: R had guard zones surrounding every town in Britannia &amp; the Lost Lands except for Bucc's Den. Pre-UO: R had serious consequences for murdering. In pre-UO: R, you could easily avoid PvP outside of the guard zones if you took precautions &amp; planned ahead. Even GM thieves got guard-whacked at the bank from time to time.

I hate to see post-UO: R players get the wrong idea of those days. There is so much fear of what isn't really a problem. I have never PvPd much, but I long for the days before Trammel.

They were exciting times when players banded together whether for good or evil, when our crafted objects were in demand, when our grandmastered skills were true accomplishments to take pride in &amp; on &amp; on &amp; on &amp; on...

 

[Spelunk]

<blockquote><hr>

Can a 8 year multi-account holding vet get a shard he enjoys?
*Hopes* page 21 is the kicker for a response like "HELL YA WE'LL MAKE THAT SHARD FOR YOU!"

[/ QUOTE ]

*applauds D Waka's optimism*

 

[TheRealIfrit]

<blockquote><hr>


OK...and how many competitors were around then (Before UO:R)?

Then how many competitors were there RIGHT AFTER UO:R?

Then how competitors were there 1 year after UO:R?



[/ QUOTE ]

How many people knew what an MMORPG was 6 years ago compared to today?
Hell, Since you are all about numbers, would you care to entertain me about how many people had internet access in their houses 6 years ago. compared to today.

In our real world...As time goes on our world leaders and scientists are coming up with cures for diseases that were thought deadly in the past, and technology is making things possible that were never thought to be before. Does that mean that the scientists from today were any smarter than the scientists from before? Think about it.
I'm not bashing anybody on this board or in UO but I really need to speak up.

I've made numerous posts on this shard years ago...
I too have played this game since shortly after it was released (dec of 97). Whether it sounds ridiculous or it sounds egotistical, Many people consider me one of the most influential UO players to ever grace this once great game. I'm not here to fight, I'm not here to cause problems but "Ifrit" was considered one of the greatest duelists pre UO:R and one of the, if not the 'best' PK of all time.
There are so many things I can argue, If you want to argue the PvP aspect of it, that's fine. I have not played OSI since late 2002. Their are 2 LARGE misconceptions about the game pre UO:R that I will clear up.
1.) PK's were rampant - Agreed...to an extent. When the game progressed to the point where most people were comfortable and not 'newbs' anymore a lot of people did go down this route. I will admit something I used to be 100% against. Stat loss probably was a good Idea. Before stat loss, I can see how it was frustrating for people. No consequences is not "free for all". Theres a big difference. And to be honest Stat loss had it's pluses and its minuses. After Stat loss the one thing that all but died were Red vs. Blue dungeon wars. imagine for a second theres 50...Yes Literally 50 reds that are organized and charge into a dungeon. PK, the people in there. 10 minutes later, ICQ messages are flying across the internet "Reds at deciet!!", banks are spammed and 100 (again literally...100) blue's rush into deciet to overtake the reds. I'm sorry but factions...simply cannot compare to that. And just think for a second, when was the last time while playing Age of Ninjas or whatever this game is anymore you saw 15 organized PEOPLE, not just PvPers, people working togethor to accomplish ANY task in the game. Let alone 100.

2.) Tank Mages ruled the game.
Again, not completely true. Back in those times (Post precasting, pre UOR) Dueling honestly was an art...Call it BS, call it corny...whatever, it really was. To be a good PvPer you needed skill, no two ways around it. However, if you preferred O/C or guild fighting, Med Warriors and SKILLED dexers (Yes, playing a dex character took skill and their were a handful of excellent warriors then) were some of the deadliest people in the game.

It's unfortunate that people such as yourself have literally brainwashed those who did not play pre tram into thinking the game was some sort of bloodbath. At one point it was a little out of control, but like everything else, there was a way around it. It required people who did not want to get PKed to think just a little bit which unfortunately most did not want to do. If you were stupid enough to run right up brit gy straight to the mines, then yes you may have been PKed...and to be honest you really would have deserved it. It's a game that is supposed to take place in medieval times. If you had some hiding skill, ran west and followed the brit mountains all the way to the mines 9/10 times you would be safe. But unfortunately most people were either too stupid or too stubborn to do that. You don't have to think to play UO anymore, that honestly is what made the game great at one time. To do anything in the game...Good or Bad, or neutral required thinking.

I am asking for what most people are asking for, I think so anyway. a late 99' Pre UO:R ruleset WITH stat loss. No stat loss was fun for a while, but assuming anybody remotely involved with EA even considered this, not having stat loss would destroy it before it even started.

Playing factions post UO:R I saw PvPers who were 10x worse than any PK as far as ruthlessness...That isn't mentioned only because the PvP was consensual. In a way the true PK's of this game...Guys like Alice Cooper, Ronald Mcdonald, Adam Ant and myself among hundreds of others added a great aspect to this game. If you played smart, worked togethor and mapped out a plan you would be safe for almost any task. If you refused to use team work, intelligence and patience then, sorry...but you were punished.


Again, Im not trying to do anything other than give my own opinions, and experiences and stop this misconception that without Trammel this game was a Free for all Bloodbath, Stat loss controlled PKing, and it was a good thing. No longer did unskilled Red's rule the land. Only those who actually perfected the Murderer Profession survived.. And they were few and far between.
I had more kills than anybody...In stat loss ever had recorded in UO on Catskills...One of the Top 5 in UO...ever, To give you an idea that is well over 3000 without dying. You can say Im bragging, you can make wise comments. But along with those kills...I never res killed, I rarely killed horses and Usually ressed and gated. I was solo 99% of the time. I single handedly held a large portion of the RPing community togethor on Catskills after trammel came in. The orcs were my enemies...But they really loved me. There used to be player run RP towns that consisted of sometimes upwards of 20 hourses...They too loved me. I gave them a reason to keep playing and we all had a mutual respect.
There was a time when I Literally had to sell houses and buy new ones on 'phony' characters because at any given time I had Bounty Hunters camping outside all my houses...And I miss that...I really miss it all.
All I can say is UO was something magical..It really was, Some people do get it, other's dont. But this game circa 1999 will never, ever be topped. Nothing can ever come close. If some people here are so against it and by a snowballs chance in hell it does get implemented...It won't affect you Will it? So whats the problem?
I don't know, this post was long...I'm at work, and I rushed a lot of it so hopefully it comes out half sensical.

 

[Issy]

Here is some additional to what I remember and know of Pre-UOR –Hope it helps.

You Forgot the SEERS - You forgot towards the very end of Pre-UO_R they took away our Seers: (Perhaps people don’t remember Seers? Part of the player based community hired to play the game on a regular basis that had powers greater than that of the regular player. They could make themselves unkillable or very very hard to kill or very weak, they ran events and had the ability to bring on spawn and build buildings. Send destruction when needed, make and give special items and change buildings and even Bless player buildings. Basically they ran as UO version of Game masters and most of them played for the love of the game and where fair to all with the exception of a few. They where a wonderful gift and drove our communities and made life in UO very interesting. I miss them dearly.

Q &amp;A

. Q). The restrictions on NonCon Pvp.. ect.... what was the state of town guards? do you want them to chase a thief or teleport and whack them? can they (town guards) teleport to roofs to deal with griefers standing on them casting field spells on to folks down in the street? Can field spells be used in guard areas??
A) Uo town guards where different back then and had the ability to go anywhere in town. Even in places a person could not go. They where un-killable and they could teleport anywhere in a matter off seconds and believe me we all tried all sorts of things to find a way to kill the guards or get away. We spent hours trying to find ways around the guards and I never heard or saw anyone be successful. The rule was if you where blue or grey you could come into town. If you where grey in town you could be attacked. IF you where red you would be killed on sight except for in Buc ‘s Den and in certain places in varies towns like the tunnels of Brit. Field spells - Where allowed but had not effect in town. Neither did EV’s asummoned creatures and such

Q) Skill and stat locks? keep them or go with a pure Pre UOR? Remove pet bonding? repair deeds and deal with griefers pretending to be a Smith and taking off with your uber Silver Broadsword of Vang??
A) Skill and Stat locks- where in place towards the end of Pre- UOR. – PETS- where not bonded but everyone could pretty much control the pet they had. They did not need to be bonded for you to control them you just could not tame them or sell them unless you where a Tamer. The next part is hard to explain… In Pre UO Griefers – Where not what they are today. Griefers had a very hard life and there where very few because people living in Fel honestly just did not tolerate them. With the different rule set you could kill the griefer. Griefers now are actually worse because they live in a world where there consequence of action is not as great. This includes Red griefer killers of today. They would be wiped out in Pre-UOR because they where not tolerated. Blue players got really really good at killing. Not all the Reds where legends they’re where some blues you would think twice about stepping through. I’ve seen reds and blues get together to chase out-group of griefers in the past in Pre-UOR.


Q) No customizable housing...less storage in the old housing if you recall..... remove housing add ons also.... no SE lands or Malas and doom arties... no Ilsh..... prolly no Lost lands... Just brittania and its existing dungeons....
A) Housing- I think there are certain things they won’t be bale to change back even if they did give us a Pre-UOR shard and this is one of them because everything down to the way we used to buy houses where different.


Q) House keys... can only lock the door by clicking on the key then the door... lose the key and lose the house... aka get stupid and die with the house key on ya with a rune to your house on you... say bye bye to the house and its contents...
A) HOUSE KEYS -We had the ability to change the key locks and friend and unfriend. Pre-UOR . We could also make the house private or public *grins* this was not so bad folks. You ever see someone who has stolen your key in your house they turn grey in your house immediately if the house is private and they are not friended. Again. This was Pre-UOR, people paid the price for getting stupid in your house if they where not a guest and once they where banned every character from that account was banned from your house until you unbanned them. You just had to use your Brain and not take your key when you went hunting and even then they would have to find your house unless you also where thoughtless enough to keep a ruin to your home on you that was titled. *Home or * I live here* till this day I have a habit of renaming my home ruin to something that is misleading to others. And again I think this is something that would not really change. The system now is better, just wish they would let yout telport in your house again….

Q ) No party system...
A) We had the party system Pre-UOR, I remember using it towards the last battles and stories with the Seers.

Q) EVs and Blade spirits targeting the caster or anyone else near...
A) In town they had no effect otherwise???? I don’t understand? Have they changed so much you cannot get away or dispel them? Maybe it is the time in Pre-UOR for whatever reason I don’t think this was a problem, just a part of the game. Made it more fun some times. even. It must be hard to understand coming from a side that never lived Pre-UOR how different the mindset was for good and bad people in UOR. Consequence of ones actions make people change they way they act and things they do. Skill based fighting was crucial so it seemed to me someone casting a EV was not a big deal back then. We followed the rules during tourneys and EV’s where not allowed usually….. or everyone hide when they where cast…

Skill based PVP- Pre-UOR skill based pvp was great. It was hard to GM anything and you could combination different skills to have different effect but it was harder to train those combination. A mage was very hard to GM in resist and such. A warrior was hard to gain and GM Anatomy. And anyone who wanted a combo warrior mage type ( Hybrid) it was VERY very hard to do. Toke me two years to 7 time GM my Hybrid and even then there where maybe only 4 of us on the shard because of the growing pains of being a Hybrid. Basically you where pretty useless to anyone until you hit master in all the skills and try GM ing magic resist when you don’t have enough manna to cast the spell to get the .1 percent for resist…. Ext……. You get my point but again why would anyone do that? Because when you where finally able to hit that goal you where stronger than some and you earned every once of benefit of having whatever combination you worked for and achieved .

 

[Guest]

Seers/Councilors would be a great addition to the shard. Part of the greatness of that time period was the community. These staff members supported the community directly. That is one of the major things lacking from all of the other shards these days. Granted, its not a realistic request for all shards, but a Pre:UOR shard (where roleplaying and community would most likely be very important) would be a good place to have those staff members.

 

[Guest]

Top 5 PK on Catskills would be more accurate?

3k kills isn't anything to drool over, but a great accomplishment even for catskills. I hate to get off topic here but I find this interesting enough to inquire about especially since you spent so long in posting it.
Your putting yourself in a league of Alice Cooper from chessy/siege and Ronald from Baja, which you might think is top 5....Popular pks on those shard and through webpages no doubt. But..
Alice at his peak had 2k kills and we (yes I was in his guild) got him about 600 kills to reach this mark in about 2 months time. Which means he had multiple people around him "guarding" him if you will, and letting him do first damage so he'd get the kill count. Alice by no means was a top 5 pk, he was the leader of a top 5 pk guild, a nice guy but probably one of the worst pvpers if you got him alone. Ronald on the other hand stopped playing well before UOR and was very good at what I'll call Dread Lord Pking. Much different style back then and I think his popularity became bigger through his website more then pking on baja. Either way my point is Baja was once considered in the top three pvp shards along with chessy and great lakes. Baja lost many people about the time Ron quit, mostly due to bannings and Baja was not very often an option on the server list. Baja i'll leave at that. As for chessy I can name multiple other pks that rank well above Alice. Catskills was never and I highly doubt will ever be considered a pvp server. So in conclusion I agree with your assessment that you rank with Alice, but neither in the top 5 best pks ever. To be the best you need to beat the best, Catskills competition is not and was never ranked in the top 5 servers. I won't even embarrass you with the kill counts from the pks on chessy.
Top 5 Status : DENIED

Back to our regularly scheduled programming of a new Pre-UOR shard.

 

[TheRealIfrit]

<blockquote><hr>

Top 5 PK on Catskills would be more accurate?

3k kills isn't anything to drool over, but a great accomplishment even for catskills. I hate to get off topic here but I find this interesting enough to inquire about especially since you spent so long in posting it.
Your putting yourself in a league of Alice Cooper from chessy/siege and Ronald from Baja, which you might think is top 5....Popular pks on those shard and through webpages no doubt. But..
Alice at his peak had 2k kills and we (yes I was in his guild) got him about 600 kills to reach this mark in about 2 months time. Which means he had multiple people around him "guarding" him if you will, and letting him do first damage so he'd get the kill count. Alice by no means was a top 5 pk, he was the leader of a top 5 pk guild, a nice guy but probably one of the worst pvpers if you got him alone. Ronald on the other hand stopped playing well before UOR and was very good at what I'll call Dread Lord Pking. Much different style back then and I think his popularity became bigger through his website more then pking on baja. Either way my point is Baja was once considered in the top three pvp shards along with chessy and great lakes. Baja lost many people about the time Ron quit, mostly due to bannings and Baja was not very often an option on the server list. Baja i'll leave at that. As for chessy I can name multiple other pks that rank well above Alice. Catskills was never and I highly doubt will ever be considered a pvp server. So in conclusion I agree with your assessment that you rank with Alice, but neither in the top 5 best pks ever. To be the best you need to beat the best, Catskills competition is not and was never ranked in the top 5 servers. I won't even embarrass you with the kill counts from the pks on chessy.
Top 5 Status : DENIED

Back to our regularly scheduled programming of a new Pre-UOR shard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I Don't wanna get off the topic either.
I'll just respond saying that you greatly misunderstood my post, or maybe I mistyped. I don't believe I said AC was one of the greatest PK's of all time, If I did it was not meant that way. I brought his name up, along with Adam Ant and Ron to use as examples of 'Famous' PK's' And how I was viewed in the game at one point...Long long ago.
Secondly, My number was not exactly 3000. I wish I remembered it, but sadly I don't. It was well above 3000...and Unless I did not mention it. That was bounty board stat loss WITHOUT dying. after the char died, I accomplished what I had wanted. No one has topped that on Cats to the best of my knowledge. and only few others have topped that in all of UO. I Hope by now there are people who have 50000 kills...If this game even has PKing anymore. And im sure people have easily surpassed 3000ish, legit or not. But when chars are ressed, Counts are not dropped. That's my point =[

Also, While your assessment of what Cat's PvP was is absurd...It was my main shard, not the only. Pre UO:R Cats had some of the best duelers in this game. Topped by Hokuto, and Atlantic. Old school Napa, maybe. Their wasn't as much PvP as on Atl or Hokuto but the quality was on the same bar.

sorry for the confusion tho. Hopefully we're working towards the same thing

 

[Guest]

Sadly you won't find anyone with 5000 Kills, because of two reasons:
They wiped ALL counts twice on everyone even if you wanted to keep them, I have no words to explain how I feel about this.
Two, no one gives counts anymore unless your blue or you REALLY tick them off.

I'll see you on the New Shard.

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

*sigh*

That's a complete misrepresentation. NOBODY is talking about free for all PvP. Pre-UO: R had guard zones surrounding every town in Britannia &amp; the Lost Lands except for Bucc's Den. Pre-UO: R had serious consequences for murdering. In pre-UO: R, you could easily avoid PvP outside of the guard zones if you took precautions &amp; planned ahead. Even GM thieves got guard-whacked at the bank from time to time.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK...Semantic Guy.

In Pre UO:R, you COULD whack anyone, anywhere, anytime you wanted.

SOMETIMES you would get guardwhacked, indeed.

What did the guards do when a person rezzed at Healer in town, with a Murderer hidden just outside the NPC views, and then whacked the newly rezzed? Nada. And what about when New characters wanted to explore, and got whacked JUST OUTSIDE the GZ? Nada.

I played from Beta. Do NOT tell me "How it was". I lived it. PKing was rampant and way out of control. Most people did not WANT to band with others for safety. Some people did NOT play to PvP. Actually, MOST did not.

Otherwise Trammel would have failed miserably, but the opposite was actually the fact. Most LEFT Fel when Trammel came out, not the opposite.
<blockquote><hr>

I hate to see post-UO: R players get the wrong idea of those days. There is so much fear of what isn't really a problem. I have never PvPd much, but I long for the days before Trammel.


[/ QUOTE ]
Post UO:R?

LOL

Please see above. I still have the Beta CD, the UO Lapel Pin, and the Cloth Map as well.

Do you?

I despise when proponent of Pre UO:R decides another player could not possibly have played Pre UO:R, or they would have loved it, like the proponent did.

Where in the heck do you people get this notion from?
<blockquote><hr>

They were exciting times when players banded together whether for good or evil, when our crafted objects were in demand, when our grandmastered skills were true accomplishments to take pride in &amp; on &amp; on &amp; on &amp; on...

[/ QUOTE ]
For whom? Some enjoyed...most did not.

Otherwise most would still be banding together, and the Trammel based rulesets would be empty.

Take a look around...the Truth is everywhere.

*Sigh*

 

[DragonFar]

You didn't respond to my sunsword post, why not?

Also, can you answer me why you continued to play UO for over 2.5 years when you hated it so much and pk'ing was so rampant?

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

You didn't respond to my sunsword post, why not?


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh sorry...replying to past players of this game that have highly subjective, and extremely narrow minded, biased viewpoints, isn't really my thing.

But...since you asked, I did glean this tidbit from the "One" URL you provided:

<blockquote><hr>

"It's not a mirror"
There has been some controversy over the term "mirroring" when referencing the method of map expansion. Several months ago, I specifically announced that the map expansion would not be a mirror. I've been asked to explain why this is, given the fact that the two worlds are so similar. Many of you have already read my explanation for this, but let me restate my reasoning.

The two worlds are physically similar because they are constructed from the same original data file, however they will provide significantly different experiences, altered look and feel, and even differing locales. The term "mirror" suggests a level of sameness that is not accurate and does not reflect the end result of the map expansion. It contains a connotation that we couldn't combat without giving you all the details (which is what we're doing right now). What we've really created are more like 2 alternate dimensions that share some common traits, but are fundamentally different.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if he apologized for the mirror misunderstanding, I say, more power to Sunsword.

After all...I am betting all of YOUR pencils have erasers on them...except the ones you have worn off in correcting your own errors, I am sure.

A truism for you, DragonFar:

<blockquote>If you are looking for Fault, use a Mirror, and not a Telescope</blockquote>

You are a Fault Finder, pure and simple.

Quite sad, IMO.

YOU need to go replace SunSword, and show us all how it should be done

<blockquote><hr>

Also, can you answer me why you continued to play UO for over 2.5 years when you hated it so much and pk'ing was so rampant?


[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm...because I love UO? Because I have played computer games since 1968? Because UO was truly a one-of a kind game, and despite the rampant PKing, thieving, griefing, etc, if one wanted to play UO, one had to endure that crap...until Ren. Thank God for Ren.

I still love UO. I just love it a LOT more since Ren, than before.

Good enough? I hope so.

 

[Guest]

This is so typical. You ask where Sunsword said Trammel would not bet a mirror, now you are changing your story that everyone makes mistakes and technically Trammel is not a mirror.

Trammel is a mirror of Felucca. Everything is the same, except you cannot do many non-consentual actions such as murdering players. Even the town names are the same. Do you know how annoying it is to say meet in Britain, and someone asks what facet? They totally lied, there is no excuse.

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Also, can you answer me why you continued to play UO for over 2.5 years when you hated it so much and pk'ing was so rampant?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm...because I love UO?

[/ QUOTE ]
That is the problem, some people don't love UO anymore. After so many changes they just keep playing until they realize they play a game they don't even like. Then they quit after the realization that UO was taken away from them.


*Added*

For those who are saying to goto Felucca, not even that facet is anything like Pre-UOR anymore. The developers have added rediculous Trammel systems such as Instanced corpses and completely private houses. The closest Pre-UOR experiance you can find is Siege, which has tons of problems of it's own.

 

[TheRealIfrit]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

*sigh*

That's a complete misrepresentation. NOBODY is talking about free for all PvP. Pre-UO: R had guard zones surrounding every town in Britannia &amp; the Lost Lands except for Bucc's Den. Pre-UO: R had serious consequences for murdering. In pre-UO: R, you could easily avoid PvP outside of the guard zones if you took precautions &amp; planned ahead. Even GM thieves got guard-whacked at the bank from time to time.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK...Semantic Guy.

In Pre UO:R, you COULD whack anyone, anywhere, anytime you wanted.

SOMETIMES you would get guardwhacked, indeed.

What did the guards do when a person rezzed at Healer in town, with a Murderer hidden just outside the NPC views, and then whacked the newly rezzed? Nada. And what about when New characters wanted to explore, and got whacked JUST OUTSIDE the GZ? Nada.

I played from Beta. Do NOT tell me "How it was". I lived it. PKing was rampant and way out of control. Most people did not WANT to band with others for safety. Some people did NOT play to PvP. Actually, MOST did not.

Otherwise Trammel would have failed miserably, but the opposite was actually the fact. Most LEFT Fel when Trammel came out, not the opposite.
<blockquote><hr>

I hate to see post-UO: R players get the wrong idea of those days. There is so much fear of what isn't really a problem. I have never PvPd much, but I long for the days before Trammel.


[/ QUOTE ]
Post UO:R?

LOL

Please see above. I still have the Beta CD, the UO Lapel Pin, and the Cloth Map as well.

Do you?

I despise when proponent of Pre UO:R decides another player could not possibly have played Pre UO:R, or they would have loved it, like the proponent did.

Where in the heck do you people get this notion from?
<blockquote><hr>

They were exciting times when players banded together whether for good or evil, when our crafted objects were in demand, when our grandmastered skills were true accomplishments to take pride in &amp; on &amp; on &amp; on &amp; on...

[/ QUOTE ]
For whom? Some enjoyed...most did not.

Otherwise most would still be banding together, and the Trammel based rulesets would be empty.

Take a look around...the Truth is everywhere.

*Sigh*

[/ QUOTE ]

Up until this point I actually thought even though extremely biased, your opinion was your opinion. Well worded and your right to have.
This post however, is a mix between Misinterpretation, exaggeration and completely ignorant flat out lies.
You say No consequence, free for all PvP "You could whack ANYONE ANYWHERE ANYTIME you wanted"

No consequence means just that No consequence. Im not sure you understand what you are arguing against, after reading this post I'm sure of that. People are not asking for a return of the Plate Mage, 99% of the people here and everywhere for that matter are asking for a Late 99 UO Replica. What you posted there was a mix between UO Circa Mid 97 and Mistruths.
You could not whack anyone, anywhere. You had guard zones. Post Stat Loss, PK's, unless in huge groups...Were limited to very few 'safe' places to kill. On top of that, Saying no consequences means a PK dying means nothing. a PK dying and then ressing meant stat loss. For this simple reason, most Stat Loss PK's were not 7x GM's. Most played on GM eval and Med chars with 90'ish mage skills and sometimes little to no resist. Which again limited their effectiveness. Very very few people had enough backup or skill to PK on a 7x GM.

I respected your opinion up to a certain point, and up until now I believed you had a right to post it, But this post above my friend was...Bluntly put, a flat out lie. I don't know if you're trying to sway other's opinions, not sure what people here are arguing for or just don't have the best memory in your old age, but im yet to see too many actual valid facts come from your posts.
=[

 

[Spelunk]

<blockquote><hr>

In Pre UO:R, you COULD whack anyone, anywhere, anytime you wanted.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's simply not true.

<blockquote><hr>

And what about when New characters wanted to explore, and got whacked JUST OUTSIDE the GZ? Nada.

I played from Beta. Do NOT tell me "How it was". I lived it. PKing was rampant and way out of control.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose we just looked at it from different angles. I saw it as a challenge to overcome. You seem to have seen it as something you weren't interested in dealing with at all. Fair enough. With that being said, why on earth did you play UO?


<blockquote><hr>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to see post-UO: R players get the wrong idea of those days. There is so much fear of what isn't really a problem. I have never PvPd much, but I long for the days before Trammel.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Post UO:R?

LOL

Please see above. I still have the Beta CD, the UO Lapel Pin, and the Cloth Map as well.

Do you?

I despise when proponent of Pre UO:R decides another player could not possibly have played Pre UO:R, or they would have loved it, like the proponent did.

Where in the heck do you people get this notion from?

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? I think you misread. I never said you were a post-UO: R player. I was talking about the ones that are reading this thread &amp; forming opinions of pre-UO: R based on it. I never said that all pre-UO: R players loved the game.

 

[Spelunk]

<blockquote><hr>

Most people did not WANT to band with others for safety.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Most" is pretty broad. I don't think we can say that for certain after all these years. Furthermore, if that is so, why were thay playing an MMORPG? They should have been playing a single player game.

 

[Guest]

Thankfully if you can't handle a Pre-UOR server then you have the choice not to LOG IN IT. Don't come here and tell us what we want and don't want because you think your the only 8 yr vet still around, your not.
On the flip side we DON'T have the choice to not log into a trammed out server, even FEL is filled with TRAM items, houses, rules and players. Siege is just a plain mess, whoever was incharge of that mission, failed. PBD's for just a few, new players are left without them, artifacts, runic weps and armor, monster ignore...its been TRAMMED OUT TOO.
We just want a choice, something you and your friends have had for years now.

 

[Selphrane]

Ahhh. Memories. I long for the days of old when I feared for my life to leave town. Even on Atlantic now, you can go wander the wilds in Fel and not bump into another person...seems so empty. Where does everyone go in Fel?

 

[Lord Boru]

I camp JC's house, but he does not know its me so shhh

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

This is so typical. You ask where Sunsword said Trammel would not bet a mirror, now you are changing your story that everyone makes mistakes and technically Trammel is not a mirror.


[/ QUOTE ]
I asked for the link. He actually did not supply the link to the article he was referring to.

I changed nothing. Trammel IS a mirror...no denying it. SunSword said it would not be. He made an incorrect statement, and he apologized for it.

Yes JC...I know...he should flagellate himself publically whilst wearing sackcloth. Then he should be locked in the stocks, and allow the citizens that take this type of mistake oh so very much to heart, to pummel him continuosly with rotten fruit.

Then, you all can tar and feather his lyin' arse, and ride him out of town on a rail. Then you can PK him just outside the GZ just for good measure. Then you can rezz-kill him over and over and over.

<blockquote><hr>

They totally lied, there is no excuse.


[/ QUOTE ]
He said he made a mistake, and that he learned his lesson.

I guess you are having a hard time moving on, not SunSword.

<blockquote>To Err is Human. To Forgive is Divine</blockquote>

Your true colors are showing.

You are NOT divine. At least in my opinion you are not.

Another wise man once said:

<blockquote>Let he among you that is without sin, be the first to cast a stone</blockquote>

So...how's the halo, there, JC?

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

No consequence means just that No consequence. Im not sure you understand what you are arguing against, after reading this post I'm sure of that. People are not asking for a return of the Plate Mage, 99% of the people here and everywhere for that matter are asking for a Late 99 UO Replica. What you posted there was a mix between UO Circa Mid 97 and Mistruths.
You could not whack anyone, anywhere. You had guard zones. Post Stat Loss, PK's, unless in huge groups...Were limited to very few 'safe' places to kill. On top of that, Saying no consequences means a PK dying means nothing. a PK dying and then ressing meant stat loss. For this simple reason, most Stat Loss PK's were not 7x GM's. Most played on GM eval and Med chars with 90'ish mage skills and sometimes little to no resist. Which again limited their effectiveness. Very very few people had enough backup or skill to PK on a 7x GM.

I respected your opinion up to a certain point, and up until now I believed you had a right to post it, But this post above my friend was...Bluntly put, a flat out lie. I don't know if you're trying to sway other's opinions, not sure what people here are arguing for or just don't have the best memory in your old age, but im yet to see too many actual valid facts come from your posts.
=[


[/ QUOTE ]

Gee thanks

So...8 reds, travelling together, and whacking 1-2 players JUST OUTSIDE GZ's is "Consequential"? Even during, and PARTICULARLY during Stat Loss times?

Perhaps to you...NOT to me. When stat loss was in place, Reds travelled in packs for safety, as a rule. You find "conseqeunce" in that? I was there...and my memory is quite sharp in this regard.

6 Reds roaming in Shame, and killing lone players that were previously engaged with 8 Earth Elementals is "Consequential"?

Well then...you and I have a wide swing between what we call consequential..indeed.

3 Reds roaming the mining mountains killing Miners is somehow...consequential in some way?

Even with Stat Loss, and any other deterrent to what OSI KNEW was destroying the UO experience for a majority of players, the rampant PKing DID continue, amongst MUCH whining from the Reds ABOUT those very "consequences". In fact, it continued SO much, that Trammel was introduced to give people a choice.

Yes...I am sure THAT is a lie, too.

So let me sum this up for you as nicely as I can:

I do not give one iota of a rip exactly WHAT you think of the documentation concerning Pre and Post UO:R, and my own memories of UO pre UO:R.

I will continue to post, as I see fit.

The good new is...you don't have to read my posts!!

YAY!!

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

We just want a choice, something you and your friends have had for years now.


[/ QUOTE ]

And I am firmly convinced that when it makes business sense to do so, and when the people who so yearn for the choice of a Pre Ren shard are actually a majority of players, you will realize your dream.

We ARE the majority...have been for 5 years and 4 landmasses.

I believe you folks may have a ways to go to convince EA that this would be worthwhile from a business standpoint.

So does Hanse

 

[Dodge]

Lame try to get attention surge :/

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

Lame try to get attention surge :/


[/ QUOTE ]

*Post Deleted due to the Realization that Feeding Trolls is a bad exercise*

 

[skrutchie]

oh please stop with the holy sunsword bit, he's made more than a few mistakes and hasn't done anything significantly good imo.
Enough of this play and give me some rocks.

 

[V(r6)dubEr]

Hanse just said in a current post that it would be easier basicly more stable to take the current uo and make it with fel ruleset then it would be to take the old code and reinstate it. So why not just have a production all fel ruleset shard without insurance, (IMHO is what makes the game unbalanced over skills people running around in godly gear they cant loose). in previous post i was for a pre UO:R shard but after a few days to reflect i do like what uo has now to offer over what t2a had to offer. the only things i would change on a new shard would be:

Insurance
Tram and the tram ruleset
power ups
char xfers
the murderer system (need to have measures in place to not want to go red)
it would be like if uo evolved w/o tram to where it is now

 

[Guest]

Just quickly, I know for a fact the shard would generate over 1,000 active players. Just by the observation of a certain shard to be unnamed due to the rules here.
1000 x 12.95 = 12,950/month
Thats more active players then siege and many other shards COMBINED.
Now take the other % that would stop playing "your style" of UO and put them on the shard, thats another 2,000 just in large pvp guilds{x 12.95 = 25,900 + 12,950 = $38,850}. Yes, the large pvp guilds on production shards would want a piece of the action. Can't tell me the 200 member guilds fighting each other right now on GL won't come to try to dominate the shard, I know they would.
Maybe what your really scared of is that your shard and every other shard would become so empty they would shut it down and open MORE PRE SHARDS.

The shard could easily have a 2-5k active player base (excluding multi accounts which we all have). Thats between 30,000 and 50,000 dollars a month in revenue, an average of $480,000 a year. Tell me they produce that kind of money from Baja, Catskills, Drachenfels, Lake Austin, Lake Superior, Pacific, or Siege? It just doesn't happen. Hell more people have posted on this thread about wanting the shard then on those server forums in the past month.

The question isn't when will it makes good business sense. It is how fast can we get the shard together in a form people will enjoy so we (EA, not the tram created ebayer) can start making money off UO again.

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

Maybe what your really scared of is that your shard and every other shard would become so empty they would shut it down and open MORE PRE SHARDS.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. You figured me out.

I lay awake at night, unable to sleep, due to the fact that Prod Shards will likely go away as soon as EA opens a true Pre Ren Shard, and I will be forced to play there if I want to continue playing UO.

I am also highly fearful of winning the lottery, because of ALL the taxes I would have to pay.

Neither are highly likely events to occur...but to be honest...my fears about winning the lottery, even without a valid ticket, are MUCH higher than my fears of experiencing the scenario you described.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>


<blockquote><hr>

They totally lied, there is no excuse.


[/ QUOTE ]
He said he made a mistake, and that he learned his lesson.

I guess you are having a hard time moving on, not SunSword.

<blockquote>To Err is Human. To Forgive is Divine</blockquote>

Your true colors are showing.

You are NOT divine. At least in my opinion you are not.

Another wise man once said:

<blockquote>Let he among you that is without sin, be the first to cast a stone</blockquote>

So...how's the halo, there, JC?

[/ QUOTE ]
Making a mistake is one thing, outright lying that the facet would not be a mirror of Felucca is another. They must have known for several months prior to release that Trammel would be a mirror of Felucca, they even based the fiction around it.

I can't remember ever positively telling someone something that I would not do, and then do it. So I believe I am free to throw all the stones I wish. It would be different if they planned to do something else, but then had to switch because of some valid reason. But Trammel appears to have been planned to be a mirror from the start, there has never been an explination other then "Opps, I lied."

Finally, clearly Sunsword learned nothing if he pulled the same thing with AOS. Not the lying part, but the decieving and "forgetting" of important information.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Maybe what your really scared of is that your shard and every other shard would become so empty they would shut it down and open MORE PRE SHARDS.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. You figured me out.

I lay awake at night, unable to sleep, due to the fact that Prod Shards will likely go away as soon as EA opens a true Pre Ren Shard, and I will be forced to play there if I want to continue playing UO.

I am also highly fearful of winning the lottery, because of ALL the taxes I would have to pay.

Neither are highly likely events to occur...but to be honest...my fears about winning the lottery, even without a valid ticket, are MUCH higher than my fears of experiencing the scenario you described.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, I'm right and your just here to grief people who want a Pre-ren shard. Isn't that what you complained about in Pre-ren?
Kettle...black.

 

[Guest]

If only we had a Pre:UOR Shard...then we'd take care of Surgeries like we used to take care of griefers.

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

In other words, I'm right and your just here to grief people who want a Pre-ren shard. Isn't that what you complained about in Pre-ren?
Kettle...black.


[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't do so well in Debate, didya?

You need to learn to




READ




Between the lines.


Presenting opposite viewpoints is not griefing to me.

Maybe it is to you. Not to me.

 

[Guest]

What some people seem to be failing to understand is that there was alot more to Pre Ren than just free for all PvP:

* NPCs that actually said something to you when you said something to them and were helpful
* Players that actually said something to you when you said something to them and were helpful
* Towns that were actually filled with people
* Player run towns that were actually full of people
* The ability to actually fight monsters and players naked if you had (or wanted to; I used to fight Ancient Wyrms wearing only a kilt). Now you can't even get away without wearing jewelery.
* The AR system. One number vs. Five Numbers
* Not having to be 7x GM (I had cooking in my template, and I knew alot of great fighters who were also crafters)
* Not having to be decked out in a crap-load of artifacts to even compete (artifacts I cannot even get BTW because I don't have any expansions besides T2A and definately don't have trillions of gold like everyone else seems to)
* Items that weren't god-awfully colored with an overabundence of properties and percentages everywhere that can barely be understood
* Stealable town decorations that respawned rarely, creating a vibrant rares market
* No insane costs for everything! When I left UO, if you had a million gold, you were pretty well off. Now people have 18x18 ugly cubes filled to the top with million gold checks.

This is just a small small list of what has changed for the worst. I could go on all day like this, and maybe eventually will when I get the time.

As someone who left in '99 and came back in '05, the changes I have observed in this game (for the most part) have not been for the better. The worst part though is that no one is around to play this game with anymore. The best part of a Pre-Ren shard, I think would actually be the fact that everyone there would be in one landmass, and be forced to participate in the game together.

 

[Guest]

If calling people trolls, minorities and telling them to learn to read isn't griefing..... it sure isn't a constructive post debating anything thats for sure. And thats only garbage your spewing in your last 3 post alone.
If you don't like the idea of the shard then don't play it. There will be plenty that do and none of them want someone such as yourself there crying about it.

 

[SevenFaith]

******__ATTENTION__*******

All their words about not being "able" to get the old code back is bull****... look at the _ _ _ _ shards... they have the old code.. why can't they just get that one and do a tiny few modifications or none at all ?

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

The whole point of allowing a thread like this is so that ideas can be gathered, and maybe EA will eventually be convinced that something like this would be good for them. Maybe not. Either way, if you don't like the idea of a Pre-UO:R shard, feel free to post why. If you do like the idea, same. What this thread isn't for is to toss "witty" 1 liners back and forward about how people who disagree with you are morons. If you think its a waste of time, feel free to take your time elsewhere. No need to troll this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]

This what the Moderator of this thread posted when it started.

I am posting why I do not believe this will be a good idea, and rebutting those posts that I disagree with. Not one post pulled, nor a warning from a Mod in 22 pages.

Looks like it is working as intended

 

[Guest]

Both sides have been borderline for a bit. Let's focus on the points and not on those that are making them, yeah?

 

[Surgeries]

Agreed.

Sorry if I got too close to the edge.

 

[LSB_Atlantic]

if you want a pre AOS shard to live, you need to keep powerscrolls and SOME of the changes to make it fun for long periods of time, otherwise it'll be play for a month or two then leave

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

if you want a pre AOS shard to live, you need to keep powerscrolls and SOME of the changes to make it fun for long periods of time, otherwise it'll be play for a month or two then leave

[/ QUOTE ]
Please explain how a shard is not sustainable without power scrolls. UO got along fine without them for ~16 publishes and about 4 years, I fail to see why they have become a nessesity.

 

[Guest]

The only time powerscrolls are necessary is when everyone else has them. Take them off the shard completely, and things are no worse than with the PSs. High end monsters will be a bit harder, but what's wrong with a challenge? Bard/taming levels would need to be tweaked, but that's about it.

 

[Guest]

Powerscrolls are unnecessary for that very reason.

 

[TheRealIfrit]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

No consequence means just that No consequence. Im not sure you understand what you are arguing against, after reading this post I'm sure of that. People are not asking for a return of the Plate Mage, 99% of the people here and everywhere for that matter are asking for a Late 99 UO Replica. What you posted there was a mix between UO Circa Mid 97 and Mistruths.
You could not whack anyone, anywhere. You had guard zones. Post Stat Loss, PK's, unless in huge groups...Were limited to very few 'safe' places to kill. On top of that, Saying no consequences means a PK dying means nothing. a PK dying and then ressing meant stat loss. For this simple reason, most Stat Loss PK's were not 7x GM's. Most played on GM eval and Med chars with 90'ish mage skills and sometimes little to no resist. Which again limited their effectiveness. Very very few people had enough backup or skill to PK on a 7x GM.

I respected your opinion up to a certain point, and up until now I believed you had a right to post it, But this post above my friend was...Bluntly put, a flat out lie. I don't know if you're trying to sway other's opinions, not sure what people here are arguing for or just don't have the best memory in your old age, but im yet to see too many actual valid facts come from your posts.
=[


[/ QUOTE ]

Gee thanks

So...8 reds, travelling together, and whacking 1-2 players JUST OUTSIDE GZ's is "Consequential"? Even during, and PARTICULARLY during Stat Loss times?

Perhaps to you...NOT to me. When stat loss was in place, Reds travelled in packs for safety, as a rule. You find "conseqeunce" in that? I was there...and my memory is quite sharp in this regard.

6 Reds roaming in Shame, and killing lone players that were previously engaged with 8 Earth Elementals is "Consequential"?

Well then...you and I have a wide swing between what we call consequential..indeed.

3 Reds roaming the mining mountains killing Miners is somehow...consequential in some way?

Even with Stat Loss, and any other deterrent to what OSI KNEW was destroying the UO experience for a majority of players, the rampant PKing DID continue, amongst MUCH whining from the Reds ABOUT those very "consequences". In fact, it continued SO much, that Trammel was introduced to give people a choice.

Yes...I am sure THAT is a lie, too.

So let me sum this up for you as nicely as I can:

I do not give one iota of a rip exactly WHAT you think of the documentation concerning Pre and Post UO:R, and my own memories of UO pre UO:R.

I will continue to post, as I see fit.

The good new is...you don't have to read my posts!!

YAY!!

[/ QUOTE ]

This post of your's pretty much summed up your thoughts, and honestly all comes down to your opinion.
While it may be completely biased and at times unbelievably ignorant... in the end it is your opinion.
The thing you fail to grasp is the fact that nobody forced you to go into shame or deciet or wherever alone. It was your own choice to go into a dungeon, which is supposed to be one of the most dangerous places in the game alone. Nobody said you had to even go into dungeons to begin with. With risk comes reward. That is what made the game an MMORPG, and the greatest MMORPG of them all at that. If you did not want to encounter a red, their were many places you could go without seeing a single one. If you did not want to have to defend yourself then you should not have ventured into territory that was labeled dangerous. Nobody forced you to. The problem is in your mind you believe you should have the right to venture off wherever you please without any sort of consequences. 8 reds come into a dungeon when you're hunting alone? It's your fault for being in the dungeon and being alone. Not that their is anything wrong with you being there, but it was your choice...key word: choice. If you see a red name then cast recall before they even appear on your screen. Saying their was no consequence for reds is utterly absurd. For starters the profession that they chose put them in a situation where they could be attacked by anybody, anywhere, anytime, with no consequence. They could not enter certain areas of the game by their choice...If stat loss was in place and they died they lost their skills. That is consequence.
If the profession is well thought out and well planned than their are certain ways for them to avoid the consequence of stat loss, however they will always be flagged, always. Just as if your profession was well thought out and your actions in the game were well planned you would not only encounter them less (Good planning, scouting, escape plans) You would reap the reward and have a true sense of accomplishment when you recieved the award. Poorly planned red attacks by poorly skilled or put togethor reds would often result in a plethora of consequences, among them...yep stat loss. Poorly thought out dungeon hunting for example could result in your consequences, which is death, and im sorry to say it but if you're going into what is supposed to be one of the most dangerous places in the game alone, without any escape plan then im sorry but you deserve it. The game was perfectly designed for the simple fact that before trammel you actually had to work for your rewards. If you did not want to take as many risks than thats your choice, but the more risks you take and the more work you put into the game the more and more rewards you will see. Saying reds had no consequences makes you seem like a complete joke.
It all boils down to the fact that you think it's your right to play the game in complete safety, venture wherever you please without any trace of danger and be rewarded for absolutely nothing. I disagree. case closed. that's what it comes down to.

The common misconception here is that "Everybody here is a bloodthirsty PK asking for pre UO:R" which could not be further from the truth. You have hardcore old school O/C fighters, Tamers, PK's, Duelists, Roleplayers, Tradesman who actually served a purpose at one point, etc, etc.
I've said it over and over. It's your right to disagree, that's fine, there is nothing wrong with that at all whatsoever. However, you are so against something that would not exist to you in any way shape or form. Pub 16 was forced on everybody, like it or not...no matter who agreed or disagreed. If this is implemented then everybody has their choice.
I challenge OSI or EA or whoever to do one simple thing. Advertise for a month and put up a pre UO:R test center for one week...Monitor the numbers and report them to the higer ups. If any single person looks at the numbers and says it is not worth it than their will no longer be any argument. Just throw a TC up and leave it for a week. Maybe throw in a in game poll that asks players who left why they left, and if they would come back to a pre pub 16 shard. Ask players who never played pre UO:R if they like it and if they would play it. You would have real facts, real numbers, from real people.
Why is that such a ridiculous idea? that will not effect you and it will get everyone from both sides to just shut up 5 years later.
The problem I see is that if OSI does create a pre UO:R shard the response will be overwhelming... not too much later you will see a pre UO:R East coast, and after that a Pre UO:R West coast, and Pre UO:R Asia, etc, etc.
If this was so ludacris you would not have a huge chunk of the player base pancakes for a recreation of a 2d game that went out 5 years ago. Obviously we have been on to something all along..

 

[imported_Mijac Ch'mon]

lol, 20 pages without ANY Dev response really does say something...........

...........something like.............."Sorry, we're too busy developing the new neon colours with vomit inducing halos"

I mean, no one in this thread has kissed their behinds, have they? Why would they bother posting or even reading it, then?

 

[Guest]

I'd like to echo that EXTREMELY long post!

I agree wholeheartedly with you.

 

[Guest]

Ya know, i've seen many different threads asking for many different changes to the game of UO. They have all been asking for "Choice" in the game that they play when you boil it all down.

Some want a new client which I think we all agree is much needed. Personally, I like the look-down 2D view, but in order to stay competitive...UO needs some visual appeal.

Some want a Pre:UOR Shard. I'm one of them.
Some want Roleplaying Shards. I'm also one of those.
Some want a Trammel only shard. I am not one of those, heh.
Some want BOD's removed. Personally, i'd just like the rewards changed.
Some want crafting changed.
Some want new maps/worlds to adventure in.
Some want quests.

Everyone wants choices.

Now, this thread is about Pre:UOR. Hanse has said that it would be difficult to make a Pre:UOR shard given UO's current client/server setup. Assuming he is correct, it would pretty much require a rewrite of the client/server setup in order to get a Pre:UOR shard. Well, I in no way expect the Dev Team and EA to do that JUST for a Pre:UOR shard, though i'd dance for joy if they did.

What I could see them doing is recoding the client so that things could easily be turned "off" and "on" for certain shards/areas/servers/etc... This could open up the door to choices for players that we could never dream of under the current client/server setup.

Since this would require a complete rewrite of the client/server systems, why not incorporate new "flashy" graphics while they're at it?

This would most likely attract a lot of new subscriptions.

Idunno, just my ramblings...

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

While it may be completely biased and at times unbelievably ignorant... in the end it is your opinion.


[/ QUOTE ]
It amazes me the Mods leave your posts with comments like this. Oh well. I will not resort to the same name calling.

I do not find your opinions to be ignorant.

I do, however find posts that call other's opinions ignorant to be more than slightly subjective, and offensive. There really is no need to be so abrasive, in that regard, IMO.
<blockquote><hr>

Nobody said you had to even go into dungeons to begin with. With risk comes reward. That is what made the game an MMORPG, and the greatest MMORPG of them all at that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Greatest based on what? Subscriptions? Hardly. MANY MMORPGs kick UO's arse in that regard. The first real MMORPG? Yep. But being first does not make it the Greatest. Otherwise everyone would be driving Model T's?

Oh...it is the greatest in your opinion

I get it.
<blockquote><hr>

If you did not want to encounter a red, their were many places you could go without seeing a single one. If you did not want to have to defend yourself then you should not have ventured into territory that was labeled dangerous. Nobody forced you to. The problem is in your mind you believe you should have the right to venture off wherever you please without any sort of consequences. 8 reds come into a dungeon when you're hunting alone? It's your fault for being in the dungeon and being alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes...there were several towns. I wanted to hunt in Dungeons. How in sam hell do you have ANY idea whether I was alone or not?

You make many assumptions. Many are incorrect. I was in a Guild. There was not always Guild Mates to hunt with. But whatever.

8V2 or 8V3 still had the same net effect. Trammel was created to prevent that from happening, if one chose not to have it happen. Simple. I didn't create Trammel, by the way. It was created because of the outcry from paying customers that were nothing more than prey for a few well organized predators. You may like being the Prey...or perhaps the Predator...many do not.
<blockquote><hr>

If you see a red name then cast recall before they even appear on your screen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course that is what we did...finger on the button, and the rune readily available. No runebooks. Sheesh.
<blockquote><hr>

If the profession is well thought out and well planned than their are certain ways for them to avoid the consequence of stat loss, however they will always be flagged, always.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep Always flagged...by THEIR OWN CHOICE, yes? Your point is what? That is their "Consequence"? LOL. So...apply your logic, and it is their own fault, yes? So...OK...if I used the phrase "No Consequences", I was incorrect. There were consequences for being Red.

Just not enough to stop the Reds from creating such havoc in Fel, the only land/ruleset available to anyone that wanted to play UO at that time, to avoid the creation of Trammel.
<blockquote><hr>

and im sorry to say it but if you're going into what is supposed to be one of the most dangerous places in the game alone, without any escape plan then im sorry but you deserve it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree with the fact that if I went in alone, was not prepared, had no escape plan, put a blanket over my head, and duct taped my hands to the desk, turned off my monitor, and set up no macros, yes. I deserved to die.

Not the case. Next scenario, please?
<blockquote><hr>

If you did not want to take as many risks than thats your choice, but the more risks you take and the more work you put into the game the more and more rewards you will see. Saying reds had no consequences makes you seem like a complete joke.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well then...let's apply your logic to the Reds, shall we?

If a player chose to murder another character against their will, and do that 5 times or more, then aren't ALL of the punishemnts meted out to them the risk they took?

And if the Reds took the risk, went Red, and then travelled in packs to avoid Stat Loss, and say me and two buddies are in Shame, already fighting what we considered to be tough monsters at the time, completely engaged, and 7 Reds run up, and whack 1of us...then we should desert the dead guy? Or should the remaining alive person take on the 7 Reds, whilst getting pummelled and blocked in by the Earies that do not have the Reds targetted?

You have got to be joking.

Oh...I know...then I should have gone back to town, and organized a retribution party of 15 blues to go dust the Reds...that are already long gone, along with our recall runes, and all our gear?

Here is the point you seem to be missing.

This type of gameplay melts your butter. Fair enough. It didn't melt enough people's butter to avoid the creation of Tram. And it hasn't since. That is the main point I am making...SOME people loved that stuff...most did not. You can tell me I am a joke...you can say whatever you would like.

History says that regardless of what YOU think, most people do not care for this type of gameplay. You can try dunning statements, pin it to where it is the victim's fault, et al.

Bottom Line: A very small percentage of people that play UO go for the gameplay you describe. The reasons vary, but the end result is the same...MOST will not go.

Which brings me back to why I posted on this thread in the first place.

It would be a waste of already limited resources. Completely Non-Consensual PvP has never sold well, when there was any competition present that gave a choice, and I seriously doubt that it ever will. No other game that has lasted has been able to do it succesfully when there is competition that offers the choice...why would this Shard be one iota different?
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The game was perfectly designed for the simple fact that before trammel you actually had to work for your rewards.

[/ QUOTE ]
You call 8-10 Reds ganking solo players "Work"? I do not. You call 8v2 "Work"? You call 15v6 "Work".

That isn't work, IMO. That is ganking. That has gone on since UO was invented. It is anything but perfect.

I still work for my rewards. I have spent years adjusting my templates, and acquiring items and gold in game to be able to PvM well. I still suffer consequences when I die. In fact, I suffer the same consequences dying to a monster, as I do dying to a PK. One type of death, however, I signed up for, should it occur, due to whatever reason. The other is one that is imposed, usually (otherwise an invitation to duel would be the ticket, I would think), and there is no choice on the part of the player with three dragons chasing them already, when they get whacked by an opprotunistic Red player, IMO.
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It all boils down to the fact that you think it's your right to play the game in complete safety, venture wherever you please without any trace of danger and be rewarded for absolutely nothing. I disagree. case closed. that's what it comes down to.



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Again, exactly how does my dying to an Ancient Wyrm Paragon have any less consequences than dying to a Balron AND three Reds? If you think fighting a Paragon Ancient Wyrm is nothing, then we are way apart on that issue. What is "Something" to me, may not be "Anything" to you.

But really, what it is to me is what matters, NOT what it is to you. You do not pay my monthly fee, I do. And for that reason, I play this game precisely how I see fit, as do most people. And that, IMO, is why this shard would waste resources. Most people do not care for the playstyle of Pre Ren, IMO, or there would already be one.

I will be most interested in your answer. I lose the exact same amount of gold, suffer the same fate...death

That's what it comes down to.

In your opinion, I MUST fight other players to experience danger and consequences in UO.

I diagree most completely with your opinion. So do most of the players in UO, based on facet populations.
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The common misconception here is that "Everybody here is a bloodthirsty PK asking for pre UO:R" which could not be further from the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure some are, and some aren't. In my opinion, the common misconception here, IMO, is that Fel and Siege are not heavily populated, but somehow, a playstyle on an entire shard that is proven to be less than saleable in the long term, and that cannot populate existing facets well, will magically become so full that EA would have to open more shards of that type.

Time will tell, but I believe this to be an unfounded belief, based on history, and current high subscription MMORPGs.
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However, you are so against something that would not exist to you in any way shape or form.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will ask the question again:

Why spend ANY resources on something like a Pre Ren Shard, when it has NOT proven to be a big draw to a lot of people?

And...if the shard experiences the same population levels as Fel and/or Siege, and subsequently does NOT do as well as Prod Shards that have a Trammel Ruleset, that is proven to be liked by a majority of players, what then? EA is out the money...and YOU and other proponents of this shard are out nothing of consequence.

In other words, you want the REWARD of the resources needed to make this happen, with no RISK to you if it falls flat on it's face.

Sound familiar? It should.....
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I challenge OSI or EA or whoever to do one simple thing. Advertise for a month and put up a pre UO:R test center for one week...Monitor the numbers and report them to the higer ups. If any single person looks at the numbers and says it is not worth it than their will no longer be any argument.

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No argument is fine...what about the money and time spent to find out? What about that?

I challenge you and all proponents of this Pre Ren Shard...you find out from EA exactly what a one month trial would cost, and then have the thousands of players split that bill, and pay that price. If it works, then you have your Pre Ren Shard, and everyone wins, including all the people that won't play on it. More revenues...increased subscriptions, etc.

If it fails, which I personally believe it would, only you folks would be out the mony...EA loses nothing, and neither do paying subscribers who wouldn't be playing on that shard if you offered it to them on plate.

Sound fair?
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Just throw a TC up and leave it for a week. Maybe throw in a in game poll that asks players who left why they left, and if they would come back to a pre pub 16 shard. Ask players who never played pre UO:R if they like it and if they would play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That SOUNDS good. But I think there may be a wee bit more to it than "Just throw up a TC for a week". I am betting there would need to be significant resources devoted to it, just to get the TC up. I am betting it would be more than anyone wanting this type of shard would be willing to gamble.
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You would have real facts, real numbers, from real people.


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Right. You don't think they haven't evaluated the cost/benefit already? I believe they have, and I firmly believe that is exactly why there is no such shard today. That is why I am opposed to EA spending a penny on a project such as this.
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Why is that such a ridiculous idea? that will not effect you and it will get everyone from both sides to just shut up 5 years later.


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Because of the costs involved to test and/or impliment the shard, that's why. The playstyle is simply not popular enough for EA to think "We could make some serious profits off of a Pre Ren Shard"!!

After all, it has been requested ever since Ren came out. Do you seriously believe they have not evaluated it's potential?
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The problem I see is that if OSI does create a pre UO:R shard the response will be overwhelming... not too much later you will see a pre UO:R East coast, and after that a Pre UO:R West coast, and Pre UO:R Asia, etc, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]
I know you want to believe this, but again, why in the world would any business just turn their back on such a huge money-maker...when they have had 5 full years to evaluate it?

I believe it has been evaluated, and determined to not be the huge draw that you and other proponents believe it will be.
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If this was so ludacris you would not have a huge chunk of the player base pancakes for a recreation of a 2d game that went out 5 years ago. Obviously we have been on to something all along..

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2D and Non-Consensual PvP are not even in the ballpark for comparison purposes, IMO.

 

[Guest]

It amusing how someone against a pre ren shard would spend so much time talking about it. Love to hate it?
What are you trying to accomplish here?
Do you think your going get everyone here to come to the conclusion that omg your right I hate that type of UO play style....gawd what was I thinking. Do you think your going to convince the UO gods not to create it just because you, who won't even play it (or will you?, you seem REALLY caught up in it), not to create it. Is that your purpose here? To ruin our gameplay, something WE enjoy? Isn't that what your complaining about....how people RUINED YOUR gameplay.
Once again kettle, black.

 

[steaming crap]

"Several months ago, I specifically announced that the map expansion would not be a mirror." -Sunsword

 

[Surgeries]

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It amusing how someone against a pre ren shard would spend so much time talking about it. Love to hate it?
What are you trying to accomplish here?


[/ QUOTE ]

To express my feelings on why this could easily end up being a waste of EA's resources.

I would have figured you would have gotten that point by now, but since you seem to not have, there you go.
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Do you think your going get everyone here to come to the conclusion that omg your right I hate that type of UO play style....gawd what was I thinking.

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Nope. I am fully aware there are some that enjoy Pre Ren playstyle. It is the people that do not love the Pre Ren Playstyle, that WON'T go to a Pre Ren Shard, that is my main concern. The fact that a majority of UO players do not care for the playstyle of Pre Ren, and that the time and money spent to appease a small minority of UO players by providing a Shard that most will simply not play, would waste whatever resources were allocated to it, by not providing an adequate ROI to make it's creation and maintenance worthwhile.
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Do you think your going to convince the UO gods not to create it just because you, who won't even play it (or will you?, you seem REALLY caught up in it), not to create it.

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I seriously doubt I need to convince EA of anything. They have had 5 full years to evaluate the potential. They have prior history to call on, as well.

No...convincing EA to not create this shard is not my goal.

My goal is to present my viewpoint on it, as unliked as it may be by some in this thread.
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Is that your purpose here? To ruin our gameplay, something WE enjoy?

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Nope...not in the least.
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Isn't that what your complaining about....how people RUINED YOUR gameplay.


[/ QUOTE ]
Nope again. Did completely Non-Consensual PvP turn me off? Yep, it did.

Did completely Non-Consensual PvP turn off a majority of UO Players?

Yep, it did. So much so that OSI/EA created Trammel.

Do some people love completely Non-Consensual PvP?

Yep...they do. But it is a small minority that does. Otherwise, this shard would already exist for you.

 

[Guest]

Surgeries, why do you feel compelled to boil down all of Pre-Ren UO into Non-con PvP? There are a multitude of things about UO before Ren that were simply better. In my mind, non-consentual PvP only makes up a miniscule part of that. I miss the old English fonts more than the PKs, and I would think it would serve this discussion more to stop bringing back the point of Non-con PvP over and over again.

I hated getting PKed as frequently as I did back then, but I tell you, I would gladly be ganked a thousand times in a row to get rid of all these percentages and large empty tracts of land that I feel ruin the game for me more than any PK ever could.

*Edit: Yes I know alot of that stuff came with AOS, but when they doubled the landmass is the start of when things began to fall apart, community-wise