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The One and Only Pre-UOR Thread! Update -- 3 Polls of Results

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K

Kallitcha

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

YES, yes of course! We would be better off without them! <blockquote><hr>

Im with you sister! I would give up all my artifacts, houseing, items, chilvery, spell channeling, powerscolls(legendary chars), Stat scrolls, everything I have collected in the game to be able to play UOR. Dont get me wrong here, I like the game the way it is, but there is so much that I miss from the old game. You use to have to work hard to train skills or earn your gold. Now you just sit back and beat on a golem to gm a skill, or mindless farming of monsters. Sure people farmed monsters back then to. Difference is back then you really had to work twice as hard to kill something.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Dodge said:
<blockquote><hr>

Keeping chiv is madness

Can you say "Chiv Tank mage"

[/ QUOTE ]
There would no longer be a spell channeling property, thus preventing tank mages as we know them today.



[/ QUOTE ]


Umm , Arm/disarm macro

Cast Conq wep and divine , pre cast explo , arm up . WIN!

Pre "r" is a whole diffrent battle system , brining necro and chiv in as we know em today is sure to mess everything up

[/ QUOTE ]
Pre-UOR had tank mages also. They would run around with Halberds and precasted flamestrikes. I don't see how the combo you mentioned above would be overpowering. For it you would need Magery, Eval Int, Weapon Skills, Tactics, Can't PvP without Resisting Spells, Chivalry, and meditation. This leaves no room for any other skill. What if you encounter a parry warrior? You don't have wrestling, and it is unlikely you will beat him using a weapon skill. What if you encounter a pure mage? The mage can just greater heal and continue dumping on you. This is why a test center would be a good start, you can try out the game with and without chivalry to see what is inbalancing.

Also, hehe, Consencrate weapon would have to be changed because there is only physical melee damage now =]
 
G

Guest

Guest
Chiv in a pre UOR environment.
Firstly it would be overpowering in a PvM environment with EoO.
Plus Divine Fury would give a huge PvP boost.

Although, without any Battle Focus you might find it hard to get your mana back up.
 
B

bluey619

Guest
I really think that if we wanted this shard to really be Pre-UO:R (If it could get made), then no midpoint between balancing skills etc should be made(ie. no chivalry or necromancy) maybe house cutomization can stay, I really don't think so, but whatever. No arties period. None of this overpowering crap or uber gear - the only landmass that should belong is felucca and T2a. One other thing to think about - remember when people actually used macing?
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

Chiv in a pre UOR environment.
Firstly it would be overpowering in a PvM environment with EoO.
Plus Divine Fury would give a huge PvP boost.

Although, without any Battle Focus you might find it hard to get your mana back up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Enemy of One wouldn't be so inbalancing (in Pre-UOR or today) if the damage bonus didn't stack with slayers. Basically you would have an instant slayer with any weapon you choose. Just an idea. It is unlikely any of the four new class skills would be used. However battle focus is a good skill and should stay if balance testing showed it to be ok.

I just want to make it clear that when I say this or this should be in the Pre-UOR shard, that is just what I would like to see. It isn't something I demand or won't play if it doesn't make it. I believe a lot of the features today could be incorperated in a Pre-UOR shard without destroying the feeling of Pre-UOR. For instance the plant growing system. This adds a lot to home decoration and creates a whole sub-game without impacting anything really. The only thing I would like removed is some of the bright neon plants. Because neon is not Pre-UOR!
 
D

Dodge

Guest
JTC

I pvp pre UO:r even today so i know my way around pvp ,

and yes chiv would be overpowred on a pre r shard

Example nr 1

Qstaff / hally / warhammer + holylight

Example Nr 2
Necro mage

Blood oath , evil omen need i continue?

If your rallying for a pre uo:r shard just rally for that..not some bloody AoS meets t2a
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

JTC

I pvp pre UO:r even today so i know my way around pvp ,

and yes chiv would be overpowred on a pre r shard

Example nr 1

Qstaff / hally / warhammer + holylight

Example Nr 2
Necro mage

Blood oath , evil omen need i continue?

If your rallying for a pre uo:r shard just rally for that..not some bloody AoS meets t2a

[/ QUOTE ]
Please read my above note about this being just what I think, and not how the Pre-UOR shard should be.

On that note, you need to think with-in the confines of UOR. Let us take your example of Qstaff / hally / warhammer + holylight. What stats would this character have? Remember you are limited to 225, and only 100 maximum in each. I would guess you have 90 strength, 90 dex and 45 Int. How many times are you going to be able to cast holy light? How fast are you going to regenerate that mana? Remember now, there is no mana regeneration, lower mana cost, or mana increase properties. You can cast it 4 times at most. Wouldn't that holy light be more useful as a cure or heal? It would be impossible to be a holy light spammer in Pre-UOR ruleset.

Chivalry and Necromancy wouldn't fit perfectly into the Pre-UOR ruleset as is, but with some modifications it would be possible. Just because a shard would be a Pre-UOR doesn't mean it has to stop changing. Chivalry and Necromancy are very practial additions to UO, the problem is they came in such a "horrible" expansion that most want nothing to do with them.
 
C

Chamfort

Guest
Totally agree. Back then it about Community coming together for a single cause. If reds were spotted, one would recall to a bank and gather mass players to help wipe them out. It was about trying to become Great Lord or Dread Lord or GM something in about 1 years time. Now its GM something in 3 days and Great Lord in 30 minutes.

Sure, there is Community now but its scattered over 5 facets. And most people have that 'mine' attitude nowadays. There was also cheats, unattended macroing sure but nothing like it is today because UO made the cheaters what they've become. UO gave them scripts on a silver platter due to the neat shinny trinkets.

Remove the shinny trinkets and your left with a game of pure simplicity where 'fun' is the #1 priority......not the shinny new items to farm for.


Chamfort-(DoC) Great Lakes
 
D

Dodge

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

JTC

I pvp pre UO:r even today so i know my way around pvp ,

and yes chiv would be overpowred on a pre r shard

Example nr 1

Qstaff / hally / warhammer + holylight

Example Nr 2
Necro mage

Blood oath , evil omen need i continue?

If your rallying for a pre uo:r shard just rally for that..not some bloody AoS meets t2a

[/ QUOTE ]
Please read my above note about this being just what I think, and not how the Pre-UOR shard should be.

On that note, you need to think with-in the confines of UOR. Let us take your example of Qstaff / hally / warhammer + holylight. What stats would this character have? Remember you are limited to 225, and only 100 maximum in each. I would guess you have 90 strength, 90 dex and 45 Int. How many times are you going to be able to cast holy light? How fast are you going to regenerate that mana? Remember now, there is no mana regeneration, lower mana cost, or mana increase properties. You can cast it 4 times at most. Wouldn't that holy light be more useful as a cure or heal? It would be impossible to be a holy light spammer in Pre-UOR ruleset.

Chivalry and Necromancy wouldn't fit perfectly into the Pre-UOR ruleset as is, but with some modifications it would be possible. Just because a shard would be a Pre-UOR doesn't mean it has to stop changing. Chivalry and Necromancy are very practial additions to UO, the problem is they came in such a "horrible" expansion that most want nothing to do with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not going to agrue over this and get the thread locked

how ever brining nerco and chiv in would surley scare of 90% of all pvpers who wants to play a EA pre uo:r shard

And oh btw

here is how i would use chiv to kill people in a heartbeat

80 str + bless
90 dex + bless
55 int + bless

Wepon , q-staff

Explo pot , hit , holy , holy , holy , insta hit
 
D

Dragoonboy_2000

Guest
Y'all inspired me to add a new Pre UOR/AOS thread to my forums :p

19 members so far! Scooooooore!!!

Also anyone got pre-pics that I can post in a sticky in the new forum? It'd be pretty nifty :)

Linky to forums
 
V

Vitto

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

Back then it about Community coming together for a single cause. If reds were spotted, one would recall to a bank and gather mass players to help wipe them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah right, i seem to remember going something like this, 15 blues hunting in a popular spot, 3 reds roll in suddenly your standing there alone cause everyone else has hid or ran. Player justice never worked, accept that and move on.
 
D

Dodge

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Back then it about Community coming together for a single cause. If reds were spotted, one would recall to a bank and gather mass players to help wipe them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah right, i seem to remember going something like this, 15 blues hunting in a popular spot, 3 reds roll in suddenly your standing there alone cause everyone else has hid or ran. Player justice never worked, accept that and move on.

[/ QUOTE ]


Haha partly true there :p

Its more like this imho

One or two reds wipe out 5+ blues
2mins later 30 Notos pop out of nowhere

Player justice did work! it was just abit ehm..extrem
 
L

linda hayes

Guest
<center>
</center><blockquote><hr>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will you please point to me where on the graph, before Trammel was released, that "Fel was emptying."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never said it was on the chart. You did. Not to mention that I do not see "Fel" on that chart.

[/ QUOTE ]Surgeries, your claim was that "Fel was emptying," and as a result Trammel was necessary to save the game. To support this claim you are making, please point to any part of the Pre-Trammel era on the graph that shows any loss or "emptying," as you put it. Such a time does not exist because before Trammel, UO never experienced any significant loss in growth. Here is a direct quote from you in case you forgot:

"It was known that a Choice was imperative...that is why Trammel was introduced, as Fel was emptying as people went to play the "New" MMORPG that offered nothing close to UO's rule set..."

Secondly, surely you must know that everything before the big red line in the graph is Pre-Trammel or "Fel," in regards to this discussion. Claiming that you "do not see Fel on the chart," is childish at best. Would you have me believe that you are that ignorant? "Fel," as you referred to the Pre-Trammel period, is the period in time before Renaissance was released. "Fel was emptying," is a direct quote from you. Do you forget so easily when you are losing a debate? This is poor, strategy, Surgeries, and a waste of everyone else's time and effort.

Finally you go on to write, "EQ Kicked UO's arse within 6 months of launch, and has never looked back." This is a total fabrication on your part to try and support your erroneous argument. EQ never even surpassed UO's subscriptions within six months of EQ's launch. That was an outright lie, Surgeries. The very best EQ did in your given time frame was tie with UO or equal UO's subscriptions at the end of six months. And, at the same time that EQ gained these subscriptions, UO continued to grow at approximately the same rate that it had before EQ even existed. This could hardly be described as UO losing subscriptions to EQ and especially not EQ kicking UO's arse, for either of these to be true, you would have to see a loss of growth on the part of UO surrounding the launch and growth of EQ or EQ greatly surpassing UO "within 6 months of launch," respectively, which did not happen ever under the "Felucca" or Pre-Renaissance UO.

Good thing I am here to keep you honest, otherwise you would still be trying to get people to believe your ridiculous claims and cluttering this thread with them.

Once again, UO never experienced any loss in growth under a non-consensual "Felucca." It was not until after Trammel had changed the game, that UO began to not only experience losses in growth, but loses period.

<center>
</center>
 
G

GrangerLS

Guest
Most people forget that there was stat loss pre-uor and there wasn't roaming hordes of PKs trying to kill helpless people.

You had to macro and manage -&gt; 8 Hours per short term count (max of 4, anything over 4 you had to take statloss or wait 8 hours per short to rez).

People just didn't kill everyone on sight after the reputation system. Taking a count was actually a pretty big deal.

Vast Majority of pvp was in order/chaos or guildwars.

There was the occasional miner PK who decided to go perma red, but usually a developed character can send that character to the grave (permanently). If you took a real, fully developed character on a PK spree - you had balls, and healers. But those characters did die.

People really need to get over this "roaming hordes of players trying to kill innocents deal". It happened, but its nothing like it is today without statloss.
 
C

CitizenKane2

Guest
I don't think we should turn this thread into a "Was EA right to introduce UOR" debate.

Such a debate is, ultimately futile. I mean, so what if you can "prove" EA was wrong to introduce UOR. It's in the past - and there's no way to turn back the clock. (Incidentally, I think EA was right and had no choice but to put out UOR).

But let's try instead to focus on "What we like about pre UOR and why EA should put up a pre UOR shard".
 
G

Guest

Guest
Let me try to look at your list


&gt;Only "Felucca" and T2A land masses
I would take Ilshenar too with fel ruleset, the reason, alot love Ilshenar

&gt;No Follower Slot System
Did you forget about grief tamers with 7 WW? I can tell you, they was a pain on Siege. Some balance do not hurt.
Or what about 20 polar bears in shops in town?

&gt;Monster loot set back to original levels (Most likely a 75% reduction in gold and much much much rarer magic item spawn)
As long we get rid of non useful drop of items.

&gt;No Power Scrolls, Champion Spawns &amp; Harrower can remain with other rewards
Why, let champions &amp; Harrower spawn be in Ilshenar insted of destroy Felucca's dungeons with it.

&gt;No Character Advancement purchases, Character transfer, or Soulstones allowed
I don't think soulstones are a big problem. I agree with the other two.

&gt;Return of "Monthy" rare spawns
Never heard about it, what is it?

&gt;No Luck
Agree

&gt;No Item Insurance
Agree

&gt;No Bulk Order Deeds
Agree

&gt;Thieves would no longer keep stolen items upon death
Agree

&gt;No Pet Bonding
Agree

&gt;No Bags of Sending
Agree

&gt;Item Enhancement would be removed
Agree

&gt;There would be no powder of temperment, creating the much sought "item decay" system
Agree

&gt;Houses would have to be refreshed by friends, co-owners, or owner every ~10 days or it would decay
I think the house rules are fine, as long you pay your account you keep your house, just changes the 90 days rule to 30 days.

&gt;Starting Gold Set back to 100
No need for that with Felucca rules, most will get killed and looted so 1000gp is fine to help replace your first lose.

&gt;Private Houses would now allow entry, but non-friends will flag grey to house friends, co-owners, and owner
That will work fine and we can make them flag grey to the house owners guild too and this way the guild secure will allow a guild to defend their guild house.

&gt;Khaldun Would Exist, along with Solan Tunnels, Orc Dungeon, and some other Scenario Historical Events
Agree

&gt;Runebooks, along with many other items, would no longer be blessed
Agree

&gt;No Veteren Rewards, however some current rewards would be given out in-game somehow including Black, Special, Leather Dye Tubs, Monster Statues, Banners, etc. (Possible Champion Spawn Rewards?)
Just make them not blessed and useable for all, then no items insurance will take care of the problems. What comes around, goes around


&gt;Return of Invisibility and Teleport items
Not sure, smoke bombs could replace Invisibility items if they had 25% chances for success if no ninja skill.

&gt;Return of item identification and mana drain wands &amp; staves
Not sure we need item identification back, I rather saw you have to stand close to a person to inspect his armor and weapons.

&gt;All magical damage would be reclassifed into a single "magical" damage class and would only be defended against by the Resisting Spells skill, as it used to be
Agree

&gt;All melee damage would be physical, and armors would be rebalanced into the old Armor Rating (AR) system of defense rating
Agree

&gt;All item properties would be removed except for:
Damage Increase renamed and balanced to older style increments of Ruin to Vanquishing
And crafting should work like before so the vendor prices will tell how powerful a weapon is. Some with very high vendor defalt price was = a Vanquishing weapon



&gt;Hit Chance Increase renamed and balanced to older style increments of blah-blah accurate to Supremely Accurate
Agree

&gt;Durability renamed and balanced to older style increments of
Agree

&gt;Factions: maybe it should stay or maybe it should go. Leaning more towards going then staying.
Get rid of it, it's not needed at all

&gt;House Customization: I view this as a major enhancement to UO, adding a lot of personality and freedom to players. And that is what Pre-UOR was all about, player creativity and freedom. I would probably keep this.
Me too but limit the size to 14x14 and remove Keeps and Castles. Let Large Towers stay but let them cost 10 x the price they cost now. Maybe even limit the customizing so you only can place the 2 stories but not the 3 stories.

&gt;Chivalry and Necromancy skills could be kept, with a bit of balancing. But they are kind of pathetic compared to what they could have been (Anyone remember the old Necromancy proposal?). Would probably leave this up to the players to vote on
Yes keep them.

&gt;Ninjitsu and Bushido, on the other hand seem very inbalanced. Probably would never be added.
I think they are fine, just bring back tracking to what it was before the nerf and Ninja's will get nerfed.

&gt;Combat Special Moves: another thing that would probably be left up to the players to decide on. Click and Follow might not be too appealing to players anymore.
I like the special moves, they put more skills into warrior templates.

&gt;UOSE and AOS Weapons/Armors: I think they should not be craftable or given out as magic weapons. &gt;They might make good rares at quests and rewards for certain things such as champion spawns.
They would not be there, if we go back to old resist and damage system. They would need a rewarp.

&gt;Spawns: Would have to be reworked. Most newer stuff would be removed and reverted back.
I like the spawn before UO:R and would like to see it back.

&gt;No recall/gate into Dungeons/T2A: Up to the players.
If the Champ spawn get removed, I would allow recall/gate to T2A and keep the teleporters from the champ spawn.

&gt;Spined/Horned/Barbed Leathers: No thoughts on this yet.
Keep it, just make it add a little more AR. Did we not get colored ingots before UO:R? It worked fine with pre AoS items so I think colored leather would work fine too.

&gt;If the shard became really crowded I could see Ilshenar being opened. Malas and Tokuno Overlands or Dungeons would never be added.

I believe there is alot good in Ilshenar and there is no houses. I see no reason why we should not add Ilshenar as long it's with Felucca ruleset.
 
G

Guest

Guest
The question of having Ilshenar really depends on population. If the shard was so full that every spawn location was packed with players (waiting in lines at deciet liche rooms?), then yes it would be good to have more land for spawns. That is a good idea though to move all champion spawns to Ilshenar.

Would have to remove the paper.....errrr....serpintine dragons though!
<blockquote><hr>

Most people forget that there was stat loss pre-uor and there wasn't roaming hordes of PKs trying to kill helpless people.

You had to macro and manage -&gt; 8 Hours per short term count (max of 4, anything over 4 you had to take statloss or wait 8 hours per short to rez).

People just didn't kill everyone on sight after the reputation system. Taking a count was actually a pretty big deal.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but stat loss was always a love hate system. You loved it because of how easily it controlled the PK population. But then you hated it because if you died your gameplay basically stopped for (Number of counts &gt; 4) * 8 hours. I don't believe any game style should force a player to sit around on ghosts for hours on end, it just screams unattended macroing. In the short term interest of a Pre-UOR shard, stat loss is acceptable. But a brand new PK balance system should be put into place, for all shards (minus Siege).
 

Surgeries

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

It is no surprise that Trammel is more populated than Felucca.

Take any game and offer an easier, safer alternative within the same game with the only consequence being the few seconds that it takes your character to walk through a magical gate and you would get the same results, 100% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]
The Choice is exactly why Trammel was invented...as a direct response to the outcry from a majority of UO players that were sick of being griefed by PKs, with no relief.

As Anthony Castoro put it in an interview with RPG Vault, which can be found at this url:

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/536/536394p2.html

Specifically:

<blockquote><hr>

Anthony Castoro: The "reality" of UO also extended to player interactions. Originally, the game was designed to allow players to interact freely outside of small "safe zones". The idea was that players could band together to establish their own rules and exact their own justice. It was a fascinating experiment in online gaming, but what we found was that as the game grew in popularity, the "self-policing" ideas of player interactions didn't hold up.

Particularly skilled or organized players would dominate other players and ultimately, the majority of players disliked the effect. Many iterations on the player vs. player rules followed over the years, but the biggest change came with the release of UO: Renaissance. UOR, as it is frequently called, introduced a new version of the world based on the fiction, but most importantly, that new part of the world only allowed consensual PvP. This decision remains to this day one of the defining changes to the game, and to some degree, it has polarized our audience. Some remember the good ol' days of Blues vs. Reds, and some see the introduction of consensual PvP as the golden age of UO.

[/ QUOTE ]


Oh I know...he was lying...trying to save his job...yada yada yada.
<blockquote><hr>

If, for example, Trammel had been created as the beginner's facet and only contained the most basic easy dungeons, monsters and loot and all the best loot, most dangerous dungeons and most powerful monsters where left in the advanced facet of Felucca then the game would have balance and there would not be a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
Easy to say...very, very difficult to prove.

Historical evidence concerning number of new lands with the Fel ruleset speaks for itself.

Most people do not want to play in Fel, or under the Fel ruleset. Whether you think this good thinking on their part, et al, matters not. The majority vote with their mouse, and since Ren, there hasn't been one new land devoted to the Fel Ruleset.

There must be a darn good reason for that, other than anyone who wants to play in Trammel doesn't like UO for the "right" (in your mind) reasons.
<blockquote><hr>

A player could live in the easy safe land of Trammel, but they would eventually grow out of it and yearn to adventure in Felucca for the greater challenge and rewards. But, the developers seem to have a major disability, as history has shown, time and time again, of grasping the concept of game balance.

[/ QUOTE ]
5 years later, and there still isn't a drove of people that have "Grown Out Of It", and are going to Fel.

That is the developers fault? They should force people to play in Fel, maybe?

No enticement has had long term success in repopulating Fel. None.

Rebutt that with something other than your opinion, Linda.

It makes your arguments so much more cogent.
<blockquote><hr>

However, an easier, less interactive game is not a better game. This has been proven by both subscription growth/loss and professional recognition or the lack thereof.


[/ QUOTE ]

Post your proof, and please try to keep it objective.
 

Surgeries

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

To Surgeries: You should check again to see who posted all the stuff your replying to, because it wasn't me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize most sincerely, JC.

I have edited the post to reply to the proper person.

Again, I am very sorry about that.
 

Surgeries

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

Learn how to spell consensual, please.


[/ QUOTE ]
I will, as soon as you learn to understand that what YOU like UO for, and the reasons you like it, do NOT apply to a majority of people that play UO.

Fair enough?
<blockquote><hr>

You've got it backwards, once again. In the old Felucca, very little was "forced."

[/ QUOTE ]
I have it "Backwards"?


Right. Might want to read my previous post once again, and maybe re-read Anthony Castoro's comments about Choice..

I mean...why would the most important thing that Ren offered UO players be a Choice, if very little was "Forced" PvP?
<blockquote><hr>

Players had the freedom and were encouraged by the gameplay to make their own decisions about how they wanted to handle a situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
And in regards to this comment, Anthony Castoro had this to say:
<blockquote><hr>

The idea was that players could band together to establish their own rules and exact their own justice. It was a fascinating experiment in online gaming, but what we found was that as the game grew in popularity, the "self-policing" ideas of player interactions didn't hold up.


[/ QUOTE ]
It didn't work. Player Justice was a failure, based on the Producers' own words.
<blockquote><hr>

PvP could always be avoided - maybe not with 100% success, but very close to that. If your goal was to avoid PvP at all costs, then it could be done.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. Just LOL.

My wife and I avoided PvP before Ren was released. We stopped logging in...for 6 months. I bet we were not alone. We have played since Beta. We do not care for Non-Consentual
PvP. Most players don't.
<blockquote><hr>

Trammel is actually the facet that attempts to "force" players to play a certain way, but even with all its controls, it still fails. Even in Trammel many players are rude to each other, try to get each other killed, and do anything they can to grief each other and they do so, deceptively hiding behind the safety of Trammel with no consequence to their actions available to the victim, other than paging a GM.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, you are holding up Player Justice as being the "Savior" of people who are "Griefed"

It did not work. It failed.

Yes, there are rude people in Trammel. There are rude people in Fel. And every other facet. But it isn't just rude people that get PKed. And that was the problem. Too many people got PKed, and so a Choice was given to them, and the choice most made was to not be subjected to getting killed.

That may be the easy way out, in your opinon, but it is the choice of most people who pay to play UO.
 

Surgeries

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

Get your facts straight, Surgeries. That was not JC that wrote that, it was I. If you cannot even organize simple facts contained within this very thread, how can we seriously consider anything else you are opining?


[/ QUOTE ]

I fixed it. Yes indeed...the fact that I replied to the wrong poster would most certainly discount any logical argument I could present. Gosh...well...that and the fact that I keep misspelling "Non--Consentual"

<blockquote><hr>

Further, trying to support your ideas with a UO message offering for players to reactivate their old accounts gets you nowhere. These types of offers are always made after a new expansion or during the holidays and they offer no facts about how well the game is doing. It is only your assumption, that because an offer was made to recapture old accounts, that UO was not doing well. And, we can see that your assumption is wrong when we look at the subscription data.


[/ QUOTE ]
Well I would disagree.

Here is the company that brought MMORPGs to the market, basically. The game that allowed Free For All PvP, and no where to go if you didn't like it. After all, anyone who loved Free for All Non-Consentual
PvP was already playing UO, one would have to assume.

Didya notice the word "Rediscover"? Why, exactly, did they choose this word, and not "Discover"

People "Rediscover" things they have already experienced. People "Discover" things that have not been experienced.

The people that promotion was aimed at were the people that left for Consentual
PvP, one would have to assume, as Ren is a BIG change from how UO had been since inception.

I guess then logic would dictate this question:

Where, exactly, had the accounts that OSI/EA was trying to recapture go to, exactly?

One could easily assume it wasn't another MMORPG that offered Free for All PvP. More than likely, it would have been a competitor that was proselytizing subscriptions that offered the Choice UO didn't have, prior to Ren.

At least that would seem a logical deduction, IMO.
 

Surgeries

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

The only way to know is to try it. Until it is tried, both sides opinions are just that.....opinions.


[/ QUOTE ]
Both HAVE been tried. UO was ONLY Pre UO:R before UO:R. Competition obviously had a dramatic effect on the course of UO, and that competition dictated the creation of Trammel.

Again, as long as only the people that want a Pre UO:R Shard PAY for any and all expenses, themselves, and not ask one penny from those that will not participate, I would be fine with that.

Otherwise, my subscription dollars would be utilized to fund something that I, and a majority of UO players have no ineterest in, along with the fact that, historically speaking, what is being proposed has not been successful.

'Nuff said.
 

Surgeries

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

Claiming that you "do not see Fel on the chart," is childish at best. Would you have me believe that you are that ignorant? "Fel," as you referred to the Pre-Trammel period, is the period in time before Renaissance was released. "Fel was emptying," is a direct quote from you. Do you forget so easily when you are losing a debate? This is poor, strategy, Surgeries, and a waste of everyone else's time and effort.


[/ QUOTE ]
Go read Anthony Castoro's comments again, and the Rediscover Brittania promotional verbiage.

If Fel WASN'T emptying... there would have been no reason to:

1. Try to get back previous customers

or

2. Introduce Consentual
Only PvP.

<blockquote><hr>

Finally you go on to write, "EQ Kicked UO's arse within 6 months of launch, and has never looked back." This is a total fabrication on your part to try and support your erroneous argument. EQ never even surpassed UO's subscriptions within six months of EQ's launch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Righto. My bad. It was 8 months.

What was I thinkin'!!??

Obviously, that two months completely discredits ANY previous comments I made about the success of EQ...

Gimme a break....
<blockquote><hr>

And, at the same time that EQ gained these subscriptions, UO continued to grow at approximately the same rate that it had before EQ even existed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup...that may well be true.

But how about EQ's line, hrrmmmm?

It seems to be going MUCH more up and to the right than UO's seems to be. And they offered NOTHING that was Non-Consentual
PvP.

Any good rebuttal for that, there, Linda?

<blockquote><hr>

Good thing I am here to keep you honest, otherwise you would still be trying to get people to believe your ridiculous claims and cluttering this thread with them.



[/ QUOTE ]
Oh gosh yes.

Otherwise everyone might actually belive that Non-Consentual IS the proper spelling.

Thanks God for small favors
 

Surgeries

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

Dragoon your pick proves nothing


[/ QUOTE ]
Of course it doesn't, Dodge.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

It is no surprise that Trammel is more populated than Felucca.

Take any game and offer an easier, safer alternative within the same game with the only consequence being the few seconds that it takes your character to walk through a magical gate and you would get the same results, 100% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]
The Choice is exactly why Trammel was invented...as a direct response to the outcry from a majority of UO players that were sick of being griefed by PKs, with no relief.


[/ QUOTE ]
So why can't the minority have this one Pre-UOR shard?
 
G

Guest

Guest
Agreed.

TO be honest, I think they should make a pre-UO shard.

I don't know why people are arguing this so much, here is my reasoning:

If you do not wish to play UO in the old UO:R sense...

THEN DON'T LOG INTO THE SHARD!

Stop arguing this thread! For Pete's sake! It dosen't effect you! You're trying to impose your will, AGAIN. Go back to your prodution shard and be happy with your non-stealing, non-PK'ing Trammelized version of UO and let us have this ONE shard. Cripes.

You've taken Fel away from us thiefs with your Item Insurance. We've been nerfed into silliness. You even have 4, count them: FOUR facets on each shard minus the Seige/Mugen shards.

WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT???

Why do you insist on totally ruining this game for those of us who are not afraid of being beaten/out smarted/alpha dog'ed?

I think, if you do not want this type of shard then just don't log into it. Nobody is putting a gun to your head.

I think we deserve a little love from EA/OSI. Let us have a little cake and eat it too. Look at all the things YOU got.
 

Surgeries

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

So why can't the minority have this one Pre-UOR shard?

[/ QUOTE ]
JC...the only point of contention I have, as stated in my very first post, is that resources would be required, and based on historical and current evidence of Shard Population, those resources would not be well utilized, as only a minority of UO players enjoy the completely Non-Consensual PvP style of UO.

If we could get a Dev or anyone in a position of authority at EA to respond and say that it would cost virtually nothing to start and maintain, I promise, I would drop it right now.

I could be dead wrong, but I believe that the cost would not be exceeded by the ROI for the venture, and until something or someone who knows tell me different, I am afraid I will be unwavering on my stance that using resources for this purpose would not be in the best long term interest of the current UO.
 
G

Guest

Guest
surgeries, you state that you shouldn't have to pay for a service you don't want.

fine. then why is some of my money going to fund trammel? i don't go there. i stay in fel with my characters.

i don't seem to understand why you are so against something you would not have to partake in. you obviously had bad times in uo preren. well, sorry. i just want to know why that gives you the right to try to deny others of what they want. we, as customers, have the right to ask for what we want. i know, i know. you have the right to say it shouldn't be done. but why? you're just trying to ruin fun for others because it isn't fun for you. in the long haul, this would not effect you in anyway.

in a likewise argument, you would say there should be no asparagus in stores because you dont like it. unfortunately, there is a market for this- just like there is a market for a preren shard.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

surgeries, you state that you shouldn't have to pay for a service you don't want.

fine. then why is some of my money going to fund trammel? i don't go there. i stay in fel with my characters.

i don't seem to understand why you are so against something you would not have to partake in. you obviously had bad times in uo preren. well, sorry. i just want to know why that gives you the right to try to deny others of what they want. we, as customers, have the right to ask for what we want. i know, i know. you have the right to say it shouldn't be done. but why? you're just trying to ruin fun for others because it isn't fun for you. in the long haul, this would not effect you in anyway.

in a likewise argument, you would say there should be no asparagus in stores because you dont like it. unfortunately, there is a market for this- just like there is a market for a preren shard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because, as a Trammellite, he is trying to push his opinion and wants on us, the Fel population, AGAIN.

They just can't stop with Trammel and then the Trammelization of fel, they feel they have to control the ENTIRE GAME. Even if it dosen't effect them.

Why do I have this opinion? Cause look at Surgeries arguments. He has basically said "I dont' care if it dosen't effect me, I don't want it to happen".

Tell me I am wrong.

Well said, Remy.
 
D

Dragoonboy_2000

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Dragoon your pick proves nothing


[/ QUOTE ]
Of course it doesn't, Dodge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive me for showing the unedited source o_O

I'm pointing to the fact that, where UO prolly held about 20% of the industry before, its growth has gone stagnant. For seven years going, thats not bad, although growth stopped around year six. I meant to show that after the initial boom in all games the trend stops. UO had its growth spurt and its pretty much done now. Tell me how many young players you see at haven that aren't getting undead slayers o_O

It wasn't Trammel, or any facet for that matter. It was the mere fact that the trend went bad. I'm guessing it's mostly due to customer service, or shotty patches, or even "band-aids" to pvp that effect everyone in general, or nerfs on whatever happens to be a choice of class at the time.

So sorry for bringing up the actual pictures. o_O

BTW, theres a better diagram at that site which shows Lineage and Lineage II, both games which were too high to be listed in that more commonly used diagram. MMOG Chart.com UO is at a stagnant growth, and honestly, I can't say it's going to raise any more. The "good ol' days" so to speak are over. Trammel probably lost several would-be vets, but if you look at the full diagram, it wasn't the complete cause of growth death for UO... take note of what happens around the Age of Shi- er Shadows. 2003 amazingly enough hits a stand still after the initial boost, and slowly takes a nosedive as the patches commence to repair what has come from AOS. Guaranteed most of the downfall was in buggy software ;)

Therefore, I presented the chart to show just that, and it was an image taken out of context. Whether in support or defence of what I think, if it's someone else's hard work, don't yoink it out of context =/
 
B

bbr

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

surgeries, you state that you shouldn't have to pay for a service you don't want.
fine. then why is some of my money going to fund trammel? i don't go there. i stay in fel with my characters.

[/ QUOTE ]
The service, is a connection to a GM maintained shard,,
You dont pay for the content, you pay for your connection.
 
L

lithanual

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

Just remove all the facets except felucca and turn off item insurance. That is all that would be needed for the test shard.

[/ QUOTE ]

There would still be item-based pvp.

We need it to go back to the old casting rules (precast! woot) and AR rules.

Another addition/change since pre-uor is magery poison could not be resisted with magic resist.

I remember when PvP took RL skill. There were more tactics involved.

Anyhow, I am for it :)
 
G

Guest

Guest
Stat loss do not belong on a Pre UO:R shard, sure it was there for around 2 years but it did hurt the game alot and players did not have any alternative to the normal shards.

Most players did well even when they had to put up with PK's, before stat loss most PK's was not that powerful and even I could take them down in a 1 vs 1 fight. Yes there was a lot of them but at least on Atlantic, the anti PK's was able to guard the lower levels of the dungeons to protect low skilled players.

PK's was a part of the games in the past and they made the game exciting. Only losers prefer stat loss PK's because they don't like a fair system and want the game to work like a dad they can call for when they can't handle a fight they started.

I preper player justice over a coded justice system. I had been threated worse of blue than I ever had been of reds. Stat loss will never be fear, it will hurt role play reds badly and hurt the game.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

The Choice is exactly why Trammel was invented...as a direct response to the outcry from a majority of UO players that were sick of being griefed by PKs, with no relief.

[/ QUOTE ]

That debat do not belong in this thread, it's not about removing Trammel, it's not about what is best Trammel or Felucca.

It's an alternative to the Felucca we have now. Trammel do fine so no need to changes that.
Also it's not a try to steal Trammel players, it's to get back lost UO-PvP players.

I don't what you are trying here. If you want a UO:R shard with trammel rules it's an other talk and an other kind of server.

Do you hate PvP'ers and PK's so much so you can't stand the chance that they may get a server who will be a success?
 

Surgeries

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

Why do I have this opinion? Cause look at Surgeries arguments. He has basically said "I dont' care if it dosen't effect me, I don't want it to happen".

Tell me I am wrong.

Well said, Remy.


[/ QUOTE ]
I said it if DOESN'T affect me (ergo...no cost to EA for adding such a shard), that I have zero problem with it.

I have no problem with a shard I won't play. I have a problem with the additional expense the shard would create, and if history is any indicator, it would be as empty, if not emptier, than Fel is currently, meaning the allocated resources would be better spent in another area of the game.

Clear enough for you, BuB?
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

Yeah right, i seem to remember going something like this, 15 blues hunting in a popular spot, 3 reds roll in suddenly your standing there alone cause everyone else has hid or ran. Player justice never worked, accept that and move on.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's because all was only thinking on them self. Now players would hunt with the guild or with allies and trust me, recalling away to save your own skin and let your guildmembers die would very fast make you guildless.

Player justice work well, but if it's 15 randum blue in same room, they won't care for the others, why should they, they don't know if any of them would stay and fight.

Get to know the others, show you are more than just a randum blue. Respect are earned!!
 
D

Dodge

Guest
Surg

your paying for Siege , mungen , Ogrins , Legends ect ect?
do you really think that the subscription costs will go up if they deside to make a new shard? you see the costs for making such a server would come from the already existing income for UO and hopefully it would bring back all the money spent on it and a nice bonus to that
 
C

Chamfort

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

Yeah right, i seem to remember going something like this, 15 blues hunting in a popular spot, 3 reds roll in suddenly your standing there alone cause everyone else has hid or ran. Player justice never worked, accept that and move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, there may have been times that may have happened. Depends on the shard, time of day and type of characters in the area. If all were newbs hunting orcs then I can see them running. If ya got a few experienced players in the mixed hanging out then it shoudlnt be a problem.

Let me guess, your still upset that the other 14 players hid on you? :p


Chamfort-(DoC) Great Lakes
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Learn how to spell consensual, please.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I will, as soon as you learn to understand that what YOU like UO for, and the reasons you like it, do NOT apply to a majority of people that <font color=red>play</font color=red> UO.

Fair enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

You got something right here, "of the people who play UO" but what about all the people on player ran shards and in other PvP games?

Why do they not play UO? could it be that UO as it is now do not apply to a majority of people out there?

Forget Anthony Castoro and try to use your own head insted of quote the one you look up too. Use your own words.
 
D

Dodge

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Learn how to spell consensual, please.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I will, as soon as you learn to understand that what YOU like UO for, and the reasons you like it, do NOT apply to a majority of people that <font color=red>play</font color=red> UO.

Fair enough?

[/ QUOTE ]


Forget Anthony Castoro and try to use your own head insted of quote the one you look up too. Use your own words.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bows down to freja

Best post ever
 
N

Nisse

Guest
I know loads of folks who would drop all that they playe if a pre ren was put up.
They would come just becous they thing the pre ren was the most fun pvp system of them all.
 
D

Dragoonboy_2000

Guest
Ehh... I see either a mass post wipe or an edit coming soon
 
V

Vitto

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

your paying for Siege , mungen , Ogrins , Legends ect ect?
do you really think that the subscription costs will go up if they deside to make a new shard? you see the costs for making such a server would come from the already existing income for UO and hopefully it would bring back all the money spent on it and a nice bonus to that

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he was refering to the actual shard itself, more about the cost in dev time maintaining another ruleset.
 
G

Guest

Guest
I only play Siege but to many of my money do go to Trammy shards, I would love to see the money from the accounts with house on Siege only go to Siege.

If they make a new server like pre UO:R, it can always be a test server the first months. Maybe it will fail but it could very well be a mega success. You can't know and your old quotes prove nothing.

Take Lineage2 and WOW's PvP serverers and you have 2 mega groups of PvP players.
 
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