Factions Testing Commencement

[Cloak&Dagger]

Tinkz doesn't guard the sigils by herself and neither does Michelle. If you've ever played on GL in TB, you know it's very much a team effort.

I was not assuming they did, That is why I used the quotes when I stated numbers, I was simply implying that it does not seem to break their play style. But I have not played on GL so I would not know, which is also why I asked for them to assist me to seeing how it breaks their play style.

 

[Locryn Finck]

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to see changes to a pvp faction system that could possibly derail your "relaxing" social experience...

 

[SuperKen]

Removing Stat Loss completely is not a good answer. There need to be some risk vs reward, there needs to be a reason to constantly want to improve and fight smarter/stronger than your opponents.

Five minutes might be too short though. I also liked the idea about killing the person who put you in Stat Loss instead puts them in Stat Loss and takes your own away.

I echo the other opinions in this thread that faction arties do not need to be overpowered, but I hope that they are not taken away. I have too many characters on other shards who will no longer be viable characters to play. On my home shard, I have several characters in Factions and most of them don't even use Faction stuff, but that's because I have the luxury of it being my home shard. I simply couldn't or wouldn't want to do that on other shards.

The mines idea is good. Defending sigils is pointless and boring for most PvPers, and most of the fighting takes place in towns, gates, and spawns. Removing guards zones would also be a good idea, PvP shouldn't be about hiding in houses and guard zones: if you came out to fight, then do so. Same theory applies to stealth for PvP.

I also concur with opinions that outside of Factions, there are things that need to be fixed with PvP first. None of these changes need to be whole system changes like what is being proposed with Factions here, but simple tweaks.

 

[Diablo FTW]

The best thing to do, IMO, is remove the faction items completely. It creates the same situation we've been working so hard to avoid... the haves vs the have nots. First we had the PBD issue, then the limited supply of blessed 7th anniversary armor, which has all been corrected and now we have overbuffed faction items. Factioners do not fight ONLY other factioners and there lies the imbalance.

The best resolution IMO, is to alter the mods on faction to match their counterparts or remove them from Siege Perilous completely.


And here is a fact: Factioners on Siege care nothing about controlling towns because there are no benefits. They do not defend bases or fight over sigils. Ever. We need an incentive to do so and in light of the fact that factioners fight non-factioners, those incentives should not be item based, in order to maintain balance.

My suggestion for an incentive would be to reduce statloss by 2 minutes per town that a particular faction controls. Control of all 8 towns by one faction = 16 minute reduction of statloss for each of that factions members. Control of 7 = 14 minute reduction of statloss, etc, etc. THAT would inspre people to control towns.

u dont know what ur talking about so... shut up please kthxbye

 

[SuperKen]

Tinkz doesn't guard the sigils by herself and neither does Michelle. If you've ever played on GL in TB, you know it's very much a team effort.

I just realized who y'all are on GL, and yes, I've seen you guys play in a very team oriented way. Very commendable.

Not so much PvPers, but definitely good defenders of the sigils.

 

[Tina Small]

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to see changes to a pvp faction system that could possibly derail your "relaxing" social experience...

This is the kind of sarcasm that drives people away from factions who enjoy it for things other than trying to prove what a great PvPer they are. I'm sure what Michelle meant was that she enjoys guarding the sigils and listening to and cheering on her alliance mates in Vent or in alliance chat. She's been doing it for enough years now (since factions was added to the game, if I'm not mistaken) that I'm sure for her it IS relaxing and a break from whatever else she does outside of UO.

But hey, if all factions means to you is adrenaline and flexing your virtual muscles, then go right ahead and ignore the fact that there's more to it than that for at least a few people.

 

[Cardell]

The stat loss on the Faction server is currently 5 minutes. I've seen one post in this thread that seems to have noticed. As far as I can tell, he's the only poster who has mentioned stat loss that has actually played on the Faction shard. (Thank you Cardell!)

Have a little faith regarding a fiction based transition to a three faction system. This isn't going out for ***months***. The new factions are a part of the new story line. We are trying to test mechanics here, not story line. My current live story line has a timeline that takes us through the end of the year.

I played last night and had no lag in any of the keeps. I was using the enhanced client. It is helpful to hear from people who are having lag and we will be glad to make improvements. Hear-say and speculative reports of probable lag is not helpful, we know it *might* cause lag.

We might add the ability for people to get imbuing ingredients easily on the Faction shard, but for the time being you can get any artifact in the game on the shard by using the verbal commands. You can also set your stats and skills using verbal commands. The information is in a sticky on this forum but you can see the commands in game by just saying "help commands."

I'll just go ahead and say it, though I realize that a couple of people have called for me to be fired, I designed those keeps. I designed them to support the story. I designed them to actually look like a castle and not an arena. I play a lot of pvp in many games and I always hated the way the keeps look in other games... they don't look like anyone lives there, I'm not even sure I would want to defend such a crappy building. I designed the keeps to make them places that people would take ownership of and want to defend. I designed them so that players could have a fight while running through a castle. I designed them to be part of a virtual world where people fight for a cause and have homes and lives.

The halls are wide to prevent cheesy stuff like 2 people who happened to be in the area stopping a 10 man raid that you spent the past hour putting together with a pile of impassable items. I've had that happen way too much in poorly designed keeps. I designed these keeps so that if some jerk piles candelabras to block a hallway, they are going to need a truckload. I designed them so that greater dragons are not overpowered... or energy fields.

I want keeps to give the defenders an advantage but I want them to be fun too. 3 defenders should have an advantage over 5 attackers in their own keep but not 3 defenders beating 10 attackers... unless the 10 just suck.

I want to say something briefly to the haters in this thread. I get up in the morning thinking about the players of UO and how I can entertain you. I spend all day working on it. I would appreciate a little consideration. You don't have to like what I designed, but speak to me as if I was actually standing in front of you.

Believe me, if the keeps are truly "crap" then they will ***never*** go live. I didn't spend hours upon hours to design them so that I could "ruin the game". To be honest, I'm completely surprised that more people don't say, "Wow, finally some bases that actually look like they belong in a fantasy role playing game."

I realize there will always be those sad people who just come to the internet to spread their hate. I also realize that many people fear change. I also realize that I'm not always right. I also realize that the test shard went live at 3:30pm yesterday and most people haven't had a chance to try the new stuff.

I will be interested to see feedback that will be coming through this weekend when people have more time to actually play on the new server. And finally, for the record, I have never played WOW and I do not think playing it would make me better at designing UO.

Peace.

1. You still haven't said whether you are going to have stat loss 5 min on just the TC or if it will go to the real shards as well. If it does go to the real shard.. thats silly. and Your Welcome.

2. Patience is such a ****ty word in this industry. I think its ridiculously old. It's basically saying.. Forget about what your complain about right now.. we will address it later. 8 Years later the devs still didn't fix **** in the old system and they said the same thing when Factions were released and everyone was complaining about the exploits and bugginess. Unfortunately for you, the MMO industry has been out long enough for players to learn 'dev language'. I speak for myself when I say.. I'd rather you just say '**** off Cardell, I don't like your feedback'.

3. Why would you only play on 1 client. From what I understand both are supposed to be supported and I'm pretty sure most pvpers use the 2D client. I understand you may not like the way the game looks, and you want to make it look how you want it to.. Good for you.. we pay the bills,, I think you should be catering to what the player wants.

4. I played not only last night, but all day as well.. With 15 or so different people that I have played with and against. I think every single one of them (2d client) said the base was ugly and laggy. I say again,.... The customers said,,, it was laggy.

5. WTF is the point of a good story to back a pvp system if the pvp system sucks because the story doesn't allow it to meet its potential. I'm sorry I'm not a developer but this is common sense to me. It also shows how ignorant of the facts you are of the state of pvp and factions let alone the affects they have on one another. I understand you want to play in a pretty castle.. but I think I speak for the people who plan on actually utilizing this system when I say.. Simplicity is better.. Use the same theme on all the walls.. simple tiles.. Less lag goes a lot farther than more decorations. The only people that will live in those bases.. are stealth archers.. lots and lots of them.

6. Me and my friend filled every single tile of Minax base with impassable items. Lol it was funny.. You think for 1 second I couldn't or wouldn't take the time to do it in the new bases? Lol.. Welcome to factions.. Now.. you can ask everyone who as been in vent with me.. I'm no jerk.. Ya know what I think is lame.. People who call me a jerk because I use the game mechanics against them. With that being said, I do think a lot of blocking tiles is lame.. and I don't do it all that much.. Every once and a while, its funny to watch ppl rage over it.

7. Believe it or not.. I'm dishing out what I feel I'm getting from you. I've been pretty much kicked in the balls from you guys over and over and over for the last 7 or 8 years.. Its ridiculous. Look at the god damn history and LOOK WHAT THE GOD DAMN PLAYERS ASK FOR.. FIXES! TWEAKS! NOT Pixel crack and carebear garbage..

TBH.. I wish you were standing next to me.. for **** sake.. maybe for once you would take me or some of the other people who actually played the factions for a long time seriously.. Because its completely obvious that we are just names on a forum to you and as long as we are paying our subs, and your collecting your paycheck... you'll be here to make pretty castles for you to run around in and feel like your at home.

Honesty dude.. The changes sucks.. You're ****ing our system up.. If I said anything else it would be a lie.

I logged back in for the first time in 2 weeks to give you pointers. Knowing that most of the jackasses logging into the Faction Test Center a) dont know what the **** they are looking for to fix and b) have a good idea of what the factions were and should be. Sorry you don't like my feedback.. I don't like your changes.. So as far as I'm concerned we are even.

Have a good one dood.

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

Mark_Mythic,

First off, thank you for response to the players and your willingness to create an open dialog about factions, proposed changes, and some rational behind those changes. It is a step in the right direction that will hopefully lead to some positive changes that will improve gameplay and increase participation in factions and UO in general.

Its obvious you put work into improving factions and even if you felt like some of the feedback was negative, the Faction Community (and it appears the greater UO Community) is excited to have someone at EA/Mythic working to move factions into the future, perhaps restoring some of the luster the old timers speak, " ...the great battles of ages past with hundreds of enemies on all sides, the sound of arrows splintering against a thousand shields and the deep silence that precedes the deafening doom of an well orchestrated synching of explosions"

Those were the flowers, here are the thorns...

The Faction community spends its days and nights, fighting and defending what is most precious to them. It only makes sense they would react the same way to major changes to a system they have taken part in for years. Change is never easy but less so if those changes fail to incorporate the feedback of the players who participate in the system. It is also crucial to elicit feedback from the players who want to participate but are currently choosing not to do so. Learn what aspects are holding them back and incorporate changes that will increase overall appeal without killing the spirit of that which you attempting to improving. Add those two resources to a group of Devs who have passion, creativity, gaming knowledge, design experience and the power to get it done and you have a recipe for a very successful and well received faction adaptation.

Sounds simply right.... anyone who has read this thread top to bottom can see it isn't. There will never be a system that meets everyone's expectations or maybe more accurately, a systems that meets all the expectations of any one individual.

So what's the solution??

Over the past 10 years of faction play, I have been compiling, constructing, and incorporating players’ thoughts, feelings and ideas about factions into a comprehensive system design. The design is not one of my creation but more accurately one of compilation. It draws upon all aspects of faction play: Fiction, Sigils, Fighting (PVP and PVM), Crafting, Gathering, Politics (Town control and Role-Playing). Its paints factions with a broad brush to hit all types of groups and varied play styles providing incentives to entice participation without granting items, abilities or powers that would put faction players at an unfair advantage over the rest of the population.

I will incorporate the new info provided by Mark and from the Test shard into the design (New Faction names, new bases, etc) and post it in the Faction Forum, Friday @ 7:00pm.

This is not an ultimatum, "we want this or else." but a comprehensive collection of many great ideas from many great players over the years. It is meant as a simple way to express some of the common themes from this thread and previous threads over the years so the Devs have something a little more coherent and concrete to look at. I'll post it in sections so people can provide additions, subtractions, agreements and disagreements along with counter disagreements. Combining old ideas, with new ideas along with the ideas the Devs already have cooking, should provide us with the best chance to have a faction system we can all enjoy.

-Lore Denin

Credits

The ideas for the design were drawn from many of the names you see in this thread, some know me well, others only by name and a few not at all (just so you know, I am not above incorporating good ideas from people who have not clue who I am . Many people contributed too many different aspects but this is a general idea of where people's ideas seemed to focus and made the largest contribution. I apologize in advance for the many people not named in this list who have contributed many great ideas to factions and its continued development.

PvP, Tactics, and Design Flaws that can be exploited (and solutions to fix them): Cardell, Lynk, Nonel, Permafrost, MichelYesMichael, Dubar, Randy, GobblerX, Bluebie

Sigils, Stealing, Timers, Town control, Traps/Guards: Tinkz, Arabella/Grace, Nonel, Fuel, Rolo, Goldfish, Talos

Crafting, Resources, PVM: Poo, Tina Small, MichelnotMichael, Dune

Fiction, Role-Play, Story, Guilds in Factions, Community: Tylindrel, Lanto Malint, Ra'dian Flgith, JC Builder, Severn, Nero of Tenebrae, Jakob Covenant, Tanis (RA), Galen, Qui Gon Jin [Huge shoutout to the Dev's, GM's and EM's keeping fiction alive and growing in UO as well as player run establishments like the High Council, Britannian Armed Forces, the High Court, player run towns, etc]

Other Contributors: (some of the people on this list contributed in so many areas I couldn't just lock it down to a category): Wee Papa Smurf, Berethrain, Merlin, Kelmo (our trusty mod and keeper of bugs in need of fixing), Balor, Zara, FiendX, Selina, Bo Hunter, Aurora, Grog, Alex Winters, Barbosa

Also a quick hello to a few who have shared some great ideas in this thread: Viq, Prozac (sorry must have been some other Lore but nice to meet you), Cetric, Lord Strahd (Fiction/rp is at the core of every idea, if it does not make sense fictionally then it does not belong - keep us on track through all the technical debates).

 

[Locryn Finck]

Somebody said that you should not remove statloss because it provides a reason to "be better" and improve yourself.

Really?

How does pvp occur otherwise?

People want to be better and play better so than can run smack in general chat, say something witty over a dead body and brag. The ONLY THING STATLOSS DOES IS REDUCE PVP IN UO.

PERIOD. The more you scale back statloss, the more pvp and the more faction play you will see. You speak about risk vs reward? The train left a long time ago. Its all about bragging rights now. Statloss just makes people go "Well no point fighting that gank. I'd rather do something else"

In your mind, you really imagine this scenario playing out: "MAN! After I got dismounted by that stealther and ganked down by 2 mages and a dexxer I just had an over-WHELMING feeling to want to pvp MORE against huge ganks!"

That is a perception divorced from reality.

But you know what? If EA makes the faction items duplicates and allows for an equal playing field, I'll be the first one to resign and let you guys have at it. If you have trammies who love to guard sigils and chat it up at the base while "risking" 20 minutes of downtime then GREAT! Have at it. I'll be pvping somewhere else and improving my skills.

 

[Lilith Vysage II]

" ...the great battles of ages past with hundreds of enemies on all sides, the sound of arrows splintering against a thousand shields and the deep silence that precedes the deafening doom of an well orchestrated synching of explosions"

no it wasnt like that at all... we just killed each other hahah

 

[Cardell]

Somebody said that you should not remove statloss because it provides a reason to "be better" and improve yourself.

Really?

How does pvp occur otherwise?

People want to be better and play better so than can run smack in general chat, say something witty over a dead body and brag. The ONLY THING STATLOSS DOES IS REDUCE PVP IN UO.

PERIOD. The more you scale back statloss, the more pvp and the more faction play you will see. You speak about risk vs reward? The train left a long time ago. Its all about bragging rights now. Statloss just makes people go "Well no point fighting that gank. I'd rather do something else"

In your mind, you really imagine this scenario playing out: "MAN! After I got dismounted by that stealther and ganked down by 2 mages and a dexxer I just had an over-WHELMING feeling to want to pvp MORE against huge ganks!"

That is a perception divorced from reality.

But you know what? If EA makes the faction items duplicates and allows for an equal playing field, I'll be the first one to resign and let you guys have at it. If you have trammies who love to guard sigils and chat it up at the base while "risking" 20 minutes of downtime then GREAT! Have at it. I'll be pvping somewhere else and improving my skills.

Stat loss is an incentive not to die. Like you see all the spawn fighters do, running in and mass winding/withering whatever.. Carelessly doing dmg knowing the second they die they can be resed and put back into the fight. Stat loss makes people have to be cautious when they fight..

 

[Lady Michelle]

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to see changes to a pvp faction system that could possibly derail your "relaxing" social experience...

This is the kind of sarcasm that drives people away from factions who enjoy it for things other than trying to prove what a great PvPer they are. I'm sure what Michelle meant was that she enjoys guarding the sigils and listening to and cheering on her alliance mates in Vent or in alliance chat. She's been doing it for enough years now (since factions was added to the game, if I'm not mistaken) that I'm sure for her it IS relaxing and a break from whatever else she does outside of UO.

But hey, if all factions means to you is adrenaline and flexing your virtual muscles, then go right ahead and ignore the fact that there's more to it than that for at least a few people.

3 or 4 years i think into the factions could be more.
I respect every ones play style, and never ever complained about how anyone chooses to play this game. I want things to be seen by every ones point of view not just mine or just one other players style of playing. that is why I spoke up.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Somebody said that you should not remove statloss because it provides a reason to "be better" and improve yourself.

Really?

How does pvp occur otherwise?

People want to be better and play better so than can run smack in general chat, say something witty over a dead body and brag. The ONLY THING STATLOSS DOES IS REDUCE PVP IN UO.

PERIOD. The more you scale back statloss, the more pvp and the more faction play you will see. You speak about risk vs reward? The train left a long time ago. Its all about bragging rights now. Statloss just makes people go "Well no point fighting that gank. I'd rather do something else"

In your mind, you really imagine this scenario playing out: "MAN! After I got dismounted by that stealther and ganked down by 2 mages and a dexxer I just had an over-WHELMING feeling to want to pvp MORE against huge ganks!"

That is a perception divorced from reality.

But you know what? If EA makes the faction items duplicates and allows for an equal playing field, I'll be the first one to resign and let you guys have at it. If you have trammies who love to guard sigils and chat it up at the base while "risking" 20 minutes of downtime then GREAT! Have at it. I'll be pvping somewhere else and improving my skills.

I think I have mentioned that not everyone is like you in that stat means "can't pvp" aside from that, if you get ganked normally, you normally run back to get ganked again? Explain to me this logic, if you were going to do it with out stat, then why not with stat? Don't get me wrong, I completely understand most arguments against stat. Such as having 30 minutes to play, and spending 20 of them not playing (if you are that type of player) But even under that argument I do not see people spending that 30 minutes, getting ganked over and over again, could just simply do that in stat.

Statloss is there for the functions of Factions, not the functions of PVP. They are not entirely inclusive, although obviously you can not have Factions with out pvp, you can in fact have pvp with out factions. Assuming they can actually pull this together, and fix factions in such a way that it would entice the players, statloss would continue to be a useful part of factions, possible even a vital part of it.

Edit: Once again, agreeing with Cardell. He said it much shorter than I did.

 

[Cetric]

Stat loss is an incentive not to die. Like you see all the spawn fighters do, running in and mass winding/withering whatever.. Carelessly doing dmg knowing the second they die they can be resed and put back into the fight. Stat loss makes people have to be cautious when they fight..

I would completely agree about being cautious, if, and that is a big if, hardly anyone actually played cautiously. they do not. they runaway at the first sign of dmg, using every game mechanic in the game to escape rather than fight. it has gotten very old.

 

[JC the Builder]

I would completely agree about being cautious, if, and that is a big if, hardly anyone actually played cautiously. they do not. they runaway at the first sign of dmg, using every game mechanic in the game to escape rather than fight. it has gotten very old.

You can't run away if you are trying to take sigils from an enemy base. Running away means you lose.

 

[Cetric]

You can't run away if you are trying to take sigils from an enemy base. Running away means you lose.

Stat loss doesn't only take place in the base man....but that is an idea....

 

[tink'r_toiz]

Mark_Mythic,


So what's the solution??

Over the past 10 years of faction play, I have been compiling, constructing, and incorporating players’ thoughts, feelings and ideas about factions into a comprehensive system design. The design is not one of my creation but more accurately one of compilation. It draws upon all aspects of faction play: Fiction, Sigils, Fighting (PVP and PVM), Crafting, Gathering, Politics (Town control and Role-Playing). Its paints factions with a broad brush to hit all types of groups and varied play styles providing incentives to entice participation without granting items, abilities or powers that would put faction players at an unfair advantage over the rest of the population.

I will incorporate the new info provided by Mark and from the Test shard into the design (New Faction names, new bases, etc) and post it in the Faction Forum, Friday @ 7:00pm.

*smiles at Lore and slips into RP mode*

Welcome home m'lord, you are most needed in this time of turmoil.

*leaves RP mode*

Please, listen to Lore Devs. His understanding of UO history, faction history and players is unparalleled (wonders if all the "Ls" are in the right place).

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Well let me start with a thank you for giving us the chance to see and test everything. I hope you can get alot of good feedback to fix alot of problems and alot of new ideas.

I have of course a completely different idea but will just have to deal with whatever we get. I would still like to offer my help but understand they will not be what most here are used to.

One thing that might help turn off fighting and walk around with people and talk about things so they can show you and maybe help solve problems. Most people learn from experience and since everyone's experiences are different it can become very difficult for people to understand what you are talking about.

I would like to see people stop saying negative things, it's just a waste of time. If there's a problem you have don't share it unless you have a solution and if you don't like that solution then come up with one that you do like, or learn to deal with it. That will save alot of time, also we are going to have to compromise with some things and remember factions as it is now is in no way related to what will be.

The system needs to work for everyone. Sometimes people tend to think because something works for them, it's the right way. We need to run systems that allow for all types.

Don't change the faction arties, if anything change the doom arties.

I think the bases should each have an advantage but you're going about it the wrong way, again we are lacking vision. The concept is not to control, it's to make it desireable. This is what makes people take the risk. Make resources an objective not something that benefits the towns people but that rather involkes the enemy.

For example, one town/base, has mountains for mining or a cave that give a bonus in close proximity. This will cause people to come near the enemy. Another could have trees but the main concept reaches even deeper into systems because they would all have to interconnect to work properly.

A base or town might have a cave with a spawn that is friendly to the occupied but drops something that the enemy might need. I am a big fan of the spawn stuff because it ties PvP to PvM, like a dragon in the dungeon. The thing here is you could lock a door in the stronghold and need the key that drops as loot off the spawn in the cave. So, now we have more to guard and more to use in our story. We need to use everything that is available to us or I should say, exists and use it in a way to intelligently make them objectives.

The point system should be a long list of things and should be based only in a range of the strongholds/city. There should be a chance not to always receive points and it should be a system of (last no points if same). So, you could never earn points unless it's a new objective/target.

Example: If you kill Ted and then kill Ted again, you don't earn points for second kill, third kill, fourth kill and so on because it's (same as last). So, same for heal or same for area that has already been stealthed over, and so on.

Place a system that unlocks. We need all of these systems implemented and used, again they all tie in together. This particular unlock could be a teleporter to other bases to make travel time faster. Again, an unlock system would be needed here. A simple example, if you stand in one place for 3 minutes, like on a red teleporter, it turns green and there you go. The trick is to be able to stand there while the defenders do nothing. This also adds to all of the other things that might be going on at the same time.

I would like to see alot of stuff like that because you could directly earn points. For example, slaying the beast in the cave, mining x amount of ore and unlocking a billion different things that we don't hear to much about because everybody's whining.

 

[o2bavr6]

Stat loss is an incentive not to die. Like you see all the spawn fighters do, running in and mass winding/withering whatever.. Carelessly doing dmg knowing the second they die they can be resed and put back into the fight. Stat loss makes people have to be cautious when they fight..

In theory I would agree with you but in application it just doesn't hold water.

When two or three stealth archers jump out and dismount you while other temps jump you at the same time, it has nothing to do with being careful.

I suppose my problem is I play mage exclusively, and as much as a group of mages can be devastating in battle they do not do anywhere as near the damage per second as a dexer does per person. and when a mage is dismounted he is toast against just about all dexers.

I've played since 1997 and the game has changed significantly, in my opinion for the worse. In the old days most templates were much more balanced and fights were more fun because you didn't need a group of people do pvp.

Skill was all about your characters skills and not the items he carries. Connection speed did not come into effect in mage pvp or dexer pvp and also spells were not interuptable when you had protection on.

Now with gargoyles they can have 50 HCI and spam mortal at a really fast rate. so you get dismounted by a steal archer, jumped by a Bushido dexer and a mortal spamming gargoyle, and i wont even bring up pets. I dont consider this pvp, and i dont pay to sit and wait for stat loss to wear off.

I guess in the end the Devs can do what they want, I just wont participate. If I can not participate in Tram I sure can not participate in factions. Heck I've only been to the new dungeons once, and couldn't even tell you what they are called.

I'm tired of hoping for real pvp and real pvp balance. Im sick of the template flavor of the day that everyone jumps to because they are overpowered.

And again i sure do not want to wait for stat loss to wear off.


Mark,

With all this said I do appreciate your effort you have put into trying to make it better, but you do have to take into consideration that we have heard many promises from EA/ Devs about pvp fixes and balances but they never come.. If you would have been playing as long as some of us you would understand our frustration.

All I can say is I wish you would take some of the effort you put into revamping factions into revamping pvp as a whole. when that happens revamping factions will be easy.

 

[Sir Achilles]

The fact that more people don't play factions makes it hard for our bosses to let us spend time on it. I hope you all well help us push factions farther into the spotlight so we can get more time to work on it.

I think doing a few simple things that you've already mentioned would get more people involved in factions, change the stat timer from 20 minutes to 5 or 10. Also do the improvements you've mentioned with the new strong holds.

And lastly change the points like the old days where one kill was one point. Keep the faction arties the way they are or no one will have a reason to join. People play factions to pvp not for the story line.

 

[Zara]

Wow, Where to begin? So many changes and new things to discuss that I find it a little overwhelming.

Okay first I just want to say that I appreciate the time and effort put into the design of the bases. It's obvious that those involved really tried to stick to a theme and put great effort into it. However, with that said I would also like to just say that although there was that effort made I have to wonder if those who designed the bases have actually participated in the faction system at great length.

I do not need to rehash a lot of what has already been said to make this long and drawn out but I must agree with a lot of the comments. The bases are enormous and will be extremely hard to defend with groups of people less than 20 (and I am being generous).

The elevators in the GL base have got to go. I think the design had good intentions but in the end it will merely cause the players their own death during raids as if the elevator is in the opposite position of the floor you are on you can not pass. Unless I see Gandolf there with his staff screaming "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" I don't think I would ever choose that faction as my own.

The tunnels, very cool in concept but it leaves two of the bases with more than one entry point and again harder to defend.

Obviously each base should have it's own unique points and places that need some strategy for defense but I just feel that the first round of these bases need to be looked at.

I realize that in the end, the Developers have the final say but I would like to strongly suggest that the Developers pick a few key people who have played in factions and know all the aspects of factions and form a team to allow us to try and help. Perhaps just spend a little time with us and allow us to walk you through each of the areas and take some of the suggestions for rework. Some things may be an option and others not but I believe by incorporating the people who play and put their time and effort into the system is a win-win situation for everyone involved.

I sincerely appreciate that factions is getting any love at all because we all know the system has had problems for quite some time and has been put on the back burner. So thank you very much for taking the time and putting in the effort to try and create new life in a dying system.

 

[Cardell]

Wow, Where to begin? So many changes and new things to discuss that I find it a little overwhelming.

Okay first I just want to say that I appreciate the time and effort put into the design of the bases. It's obvious that those involved really tried to stick to a theme and put great effort into it. However, with that said I would also like to just say that although there was that effort made I have to wonder if those who designed the bases have actually participated in the faction system at great length.

I do not need to rehash a lot of what has already been said to make this long and drawn out but I must agree with a lot of the comments. The bases are enormous and will be extremely hard to defend with groups of people less than 20 (and I am being generous).

The elevators in the GL base have got to go. I think the design had good intentions but in the end it will merely cause the players their own death during raids as if the elevator is in the opposite position of the floor you are on you can not pass. Unless I see Gandolf there with his staff screaming "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" I don't think I would ever choose that faction as my own.

The tunnels, very cool in concept but it leaves two of the bases with more than one entry point and again harder to defend.

Obviously each base should have it's own unique points and places that need some strategy for defense but I just feel that the first round of these bases need to be looked at.

I realize that in the end, the Developers have the final say but I would like to strongly suggest that the Developers pick a few key people who have played in factions and know all the aspects of factions and form a team to allow us to try and help. Perhaps just spend a little time with us and allow us to walk you through each of the areas and take some of the suggestions for rework. Some things may be an option and others not but I believe by incorporating the people who play and put their time and effort into the system is a win-win situation for everyone involved.

I sincerely appreciate that factions is getting any love at all because we all know the system has had problems for quite some time and has been put on the back burner. So thank you very much for taking the time and putting in the effort to try and create new life in a dying system.

Agreed.

Ya know what we should do.. Since beating sense into the devs will only get us in trouble.. we should just lock them in the new Minax base and make them try and defend the sigils against Nonel, Rilo, Tinkz and Remat...

They'll get the picture...

 

[SuperKen]

How about alternative ideas for Stat Loss then?

While in Stat, you can't gain faction points? You can't carry a sig? Instead of dropping skills, make some other punishment. I think dropping the timer would work just fine for me and my guild, but obviously there are disagreements on that.

I've played a mage for the longest time as well, and I do know the feeling of fighting multiple stealth and bushido archers. It's fine when I'm in a smaller area where my fields, stone walls, and other tricks help me out, but I can't help but feel cheated that these archers are probably just clicking 3-4 buttons and chasing me, whereas I have to jump through hoops to survive. The problem is exacerbated when all of these archers also run faster than me. I'm very eagerly awaiting the release of the anti speeder patch...

But that's not a problem with Factions, that's a problem with PvP in general.

 

[Zara]

How about alternative ideas for Stat Loss then?

While in Stat, you can't gain faction points? You can't carry a sig? Instead of dropping skills, make some other punishment.

I've played a mage for the longest time as well, and I do know the feeling of fighting multiple stealth and bushido archers. It's fine when I'm in a smaller area where my fields, stone walls, and other tricks help me out, but I can't help but feel cheated that these archers are probably just clicking 3-4 buttons and chasing me, whereas I have to jump through hoops to survive. The problem is exacerbated when all of these archers also run faster than me. I'm very eagerly awaiting the release of the anti speeder patch...

But that's not a problem with Factions, that's a problem with PvP in general.

HUH? LOL I don't think I ever get any time to play while not in stat loss so I am not sure I would even understand the concept! I am a die hard factioner but anyone can tell you that my pvp has much to be desired as I fight like a Drunken Pixie!

Seriously, I would have to disagree with the stat loss being changed at all. It opens things up to way too many problems. You have some factions with tons of people and others with very few people and it would upset the balance. At this point when a player is put into stat those who are not have a slight advantage and the underdog actually stands a chance in a fight.

As it stands now we don't have enough factioners to begin with and if you place people in a position like that you are ultimately only pushing people further away.

You have a choice when you go into stat. You can beg out for 20 minutes or you can continue to play. 98% of the time I always continue to play as I can support my team in many other ways and every man counts in the field. But ultimately, you have the choice as to what you want to do and you are not automatically down for the stat loss time.

 

[Zara]

Agreed.

Ya know what we should do.. Since beating sense into the devs will only get us in trouble.. we should just lock them in the new Minax base and make them try and defend the sigils against Nonel, Rilo, Tinkz and Remat...

They'll get the picture...

Now that would be an event I would pay extra for. There would have to be the condition that the devs cannot be invuln and on regular characters! God help you devs, I cringe every time I see Nonel rushing into our base. He is a force to be reckoned with!

Can we do it? Please, please... PLEASE??

 

[Cardell]

How about alternative ideas for Stat Loss then?

While in Stat, you can't gain faction points? You can't carry a sig? Instead of dropping skills, make some other punishment. I think dropping the timer would work just fine for me and my guild, but obviously there are disagreements on that.

I've played a mage for the longest time as well, and I do know the feeling of fighting multiple stealth and bushido archers. It's fine when I'm in a smaller area where my fields, stone walls, and other tricks help me out, but I can't help but feel cheated that these archers are probably just clicking 3-4 buttons and chasing me, whereas I have to jump through hoops to survive. The problem is exacerbated when all of these archers also run faster than me. I'm very eagerly awaiting the release of the anti speeder patch...

But that's not a problem with Factions, that's a problem with PvP in general.

Seriously? Not being able to pvp worth a damn isn't tough enough?

 

[tink'r_toiz]

Agreed.

Ya know what we should do.. Since beating sense into the devs will only get us in trouble.. we should just lock them in the new Minax base and make them try and defend the sigils against Nonel, Rilo, Tinkz and Remat...

They'll get the picture...

Oh, now that would be a blast... I'll even drop my resist, throw back on my higher stealing and stealth to show em I can still be a pain in stat loss ....

Seriously, I would have to disagree with the stat loss being changed at all. It opens things up to way too many problems. You have some factions with tons of people and others with very few people and it would upset the balance. At this point when a player is put into stat those who are not have a slight advantage and the underdog actually stands a chance in a fight.

As it stands now we don't have enough factioners to begin with and if you place people in a position like that you are ultimately only pushing people further away.

You have a choice when you go into stat. You can beg out for 20 minutes or you can continue to play. 98% of the time I always continue to play as I can support my team in many other ways and every man counts in the field. But ultimately, you have the choice as to what you want to do and you are not automatically down for the stat loss time.

What she said to infinity!

 

[Tina Small]

I thought it might be interesting to examine in more detail the information provided at this point on the three sign-up stones.

Free Tradesmen [Stronghold is near Wind.]
Clear vision and accountability are the keys to bringing about a new age of prosperity for all Sosaria. Prosperity does not reward those who pine for the glories of past ages and dead kings, nor does it brook oppression. We are an alliance of regular, hard working people who have united our resources and experience to take back Felucca from those who would place their zealotry or vanity above our freedom. Beware, ye would be oppressors, the Free Tradesmen protect their own.

The Guardian's Legion [Stronghold is in old Minax stronghold location.]
The right to rule is earned by conquest, not by paying lip service to an archaic system of virtues or by paying bribes. There is little hope in praying for the return of a long-departed king and yearning for the return of a golden age long past. Power lies not with the common man but with the warlords who will rise up and seize it. These are the truths the Guardian teaches.

Crusaders of Virtue [Near Yew orc fort.]
Only by living by the Three Principles and the Eight Virtues may we as a society bring about a return to our former glory. We must walk strong and not be set astray by those who would put the individual above the community or who mask their greed and lust for power behind a facade of open dealings. Our bravery, our passion, and our pursuit of truth will deliver us from chaos!

I haven't made it into any of the strongholds yet but did notice there seemed to be no barrier preventing a nonfaction character from strolling at least part of the way into the Free Tradesmen's stronghold. Not sure if this is intentional or not or if there is a barrier further in and I just haven't hit it yet with my nonfaction character. The other two strongholds have the normal invisible barriers close to the sign-up stone that prevent nonfaction characters from walking into the stronghold.

 

[o2bavr6]

Seriously, I would have to disagree with the stat loss being changed at all. It opens things up to way too many problems. You have some factions with tons of people and others with very few people and it would upset the balance. At this point when a player is put into stat those who are not have a slight advantage and the underdog actually stands a chance in a fight.

As it stands now we don't have enough factioners to begin with and if you place people in a position like that you are ultimately only pushing people further away.

You have a choice when you go into stat. You can beg out for 20 minutes or you can continue to play. 98% of the time I always continue to play as I can support my team in many other ways and every man counts in the field. But ultimately, you have the choice as to what you want to do and you are not automatically down for the stat loss time.

The problem with pvping while in stat loss is that you will likely get killed again, resetting the 20 minute timer.

How about if you die instead of stat loss, you cant enter any faction stronghold for 10 minutes instead?

 

[Zara]

The problem with pvping while in stat loss is that you will likely get killed again, resetting the 20 minute timer.

How about if you die instead of stat loss, you cant enter any faction stronghold for 10 minutes instead?

Well that kind of defeats the purpose because if you are defending your base and you're stuck outside for 10 minutes it's worse than stat loss you can play through.

It's all about risk vs. reward. If you choose to play in stat then you know the risk is that your stat will last longer. To remove it or to change the timer I just sincerely believe would be detrimental.

 

[o2bavr6]

How about alternative ideas for Stat Loss then?

While in Stat, you can't gain faction points? You can't carry a sig? Instead of dropping skills, make some other punishment. I think dropping the timer would work just fine for me and my guild, but obviously there are disagreements on that.

I've played a mage for the longest time as well, and I do know the feeling of fighting multiple stealth and bushido archers. It's fine when I'm in a smaller area where my fields, stone walls, and other tricks help me out, but I can't help but feel cheated that these archers are probably just clicking 3-4 buttons and chasing me, whereas I have to jump through hoops to survive. The problem is exacerbated when all of these archers also run faster than me. I'm very eagerly awaiting the release of the anti speeder patch...

But that's not a problem with Factions, that's a problem with PvP in general.

I just posted an idea that wont let you in any faction stronghold for 10 minutes instead of stat loss.

I agree completely with the rest of your post. And that is why i say first fix pvp balance; which would entail stopping any cheats or speed programs.

I've seen people who mess with the x axis (or was that y axis) and can cast multiple fields on top of each other. This kind of stuff should just not be able to be done.

Mark says that his bosses dont want him to spend time on factions cause of the limited amount of players involved in it. Its a catch 22, you wont have the involvement until pvp is properly balanced and hacks and cheats are removed.

I wish I could find all the posts from Devs over the years who promised pvp would be looked into. The speech went like this. We will look into pvp after the next publish. We will be fixes bugs from this publish so pvp fixes will be delayed.

We will look into pvp after the next publish. We will be fixes bugs from this publish so pvp fixes will be delayed.

We will look into pvp after the next publish. We will be fixes bugs from this publish so pvp fixes will be delayed.

We will look into pvp after the next publish. We will be fixes bugs from this publish so pvp fixes will be delayed.

Lather Rinse Repeat.

Get the point?

 

[o2bavr6]

Well that kind of defeats the purpose because if you are defending your base and you're stuck outside for 10 minutes it's worse than stat loss you can play through.

It's all about risk vs. reward. If you choose to play in stat then you know the risk is that your stat will last longer. To remove it or to change the timer I just sincerely believe would be detrimental.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I pay to play not to sit and wait. And I don't consider playing in stat loss as "playing". You take huge damage and as a mage are HUGELY hampered by not being able to even get off an ebolt on a regular basis while in stat.

I've also spent 13 years playing this game and I don't want to have to play a character that took a long time to develop at 80% effectiveness.

 

[Locryn Finck]

I feel sympathy for the Dev. Its clear that it must be a small group working on this, if not just him. I can imagine how irritating it must be to have to convince the corporate EA overlords to even LET him make some changes...

That in mind, here are some SIMPLE ideas:

*Make faction items hued and badass looking. Give people special dyes and other non statistical incentives. The horse being resable for example is a HUUUUUUUGE boon to factions. Personally, its my favorite item I get to use. How about faction swampies with hued armor? Little things like that can entice, without alienating the rest of the players like overpowered artifacts.

*Apparently people love statloss. Or at least the people on the winning end of it. Personally, I think it creates a climate of boredom. Not tension. Not caution. Boredom. It has been said earlier, but people go to such mind boggling lengths not to die now that it just makes things stale. You are either ganking, being ganked or chasing somebody in Llama form. Welcome to PVP. If you remove statloss, or make it applicable only in faction towns/bases or make it something other than a hard stat penalty, more people will come out to play. If you want more people and more action, reduce statloss. If you want less people and more chasing/running/hiding, keep it rolling. And yes, I understand it HAS been altered on TC to 5m. This is more a response to the people who advocate it.

Ultimately I think of why factions are intended vs why people actually join now: Factions are intended to be a group battle for control of felucca towns. A pvp world within a world so to speak. Essentially designed for people hungry for some siege type fighting outside of a champ spawn who want to be part of a group.

The real reason most people join now is simply that to have the best gear and the best chance for 1v1 pvp success, you must be in a faction. Even if the consequence has been the decimation of 1v1 pvp.

 

[o2bavr6]

The real reason most people join now is simply that to have the best gear and the best chance for 1v1 pvp success, you must be in a faction. Even if the consequence has been the decimation of 1v1 pvp.

So true, I think that faction items are the scourge of PvP. They are probably the stupidest thing ever introduced to UO other than making the game item based instead of skill based.

It totally imbalances pvp fights when a non factioner is trying to fight a factioner with all his uber items.

 

[SuperKen]

So true, I think that faction items are the scourge of PvP. They are probably the stupidest thing ever introduced to UO other than making the game item based instead of skill based.

It totally imbalances pvp fights when a non factioner is trying to fight a factioner with all his uber items.

I can't speak for others, but I know that me and my guild joined Factions to put others in Stat and for the ressable mounts. I personally only joined because I'm the cross healer and fielder of the group and had to join to support my guildmates. That's why I want to keep Stat Loss but perhaps reduce the timer for more frequent fighting.

None of us rely on Faction Arties. I think some of you are overstating that PvPers only join Factions for the arties.

None of us feel that Faction Arties are overpowered either, but if that's what the consensus is, go ahead and remove the bonuses and make them the same as their originals. Wouldn't bother me or my guild in the slightest.

However, I don't want to see them go away either. Many of us xshard to fight on other shards, and we simply cannot afford to have an Orny on every shard on top of other things.

 

[Cardell]

So true, I think that faction items are the scourge of PvP. They are probably the stupidest thing ever introduced to UO other than making the game item based instead of skill based.

It totally imbalances pvp fights when a non factioner is trying to fight a factioner with all his uber items.

imbued items are 1000x better..

 

[Lord Strahd]

thanks Locryn

That was a well thought out, informative, and honest post.

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

For this post I did my best to stay focused on the Stat loss debate

I think the debate of stat loss is key. It is the one issue that always seems to divide people that are willing to play factions vs. people who are unwilling. It does seem there is common ground on both sides that if stat loss were to be greatly shortened/removed, a comparable system would have to take its place to prevent faction base defenses and town control from becoming meaningless, non tactical, res and repeat battles where outcome would be controlled by volume of players and time available to those players rather then the tactical team work that separates factions from run of the mill pvp(and when I say team work I am including everyone from the most uber of pvpers to those non pvpers who make/remove traps, steal sigils, brew potions, bring in bandages, repair damaged armor, bake cakes, etc.)

I am an original faction player and so my natural inclination is to defend the stat loss system. This does not mean I am not open to adaptation or a move away from stat loss, only that I have seen importance it plays in a faction battle as well as experiencing the frustration it can lead to when engaged in non faction activities such as dueling, hunting, spawning, tournaments, etc (a personal favorite is getting dying to a red and resing only to take a pop shot from a hidden oj upon resing).

I think a few of the hardcore faction players have summed up the reasons for stat loss and the non stat loss people have come up with some great adaptations that can make create a new middle ground.

Locations Stat Loss is Important: Strongholds, Faction Towns and Silver Monster Spawns.

Faction Strongholds: Keep timers 20 mins for strongholds with possible incentives to lower the timer to 15 min. for stronghold defenders (stronghold zone should begin at the passes where faction signup stones are located).

Towns and Silver Monster Spawns: Dangerous area's for enemies of the controlling faction. Shorter timers for controlling faction members. 5 min stat for town controllers (or allied creature area), 20 min stat for enemies (or enemy creature area).

Locations where stat loss is a burden and would not impact the Spirit of Factions: Dungeons, wilds, non faction towns, homes, etc.

Suggestion: Timer of 8 mins, reduced by one min for each town the faction currently controls. (There is still something to be said about the pre-emptive strike at a gate or enemy's home where people may be gathering to raid, or maintaining some elevated elements of risk by being a member of a faction and some non power based incentive to encourage members of a faction to participate in sigil raids and defenses for their own benefit)

**Adaptation notes: Added pvm element of silver spawns, did not tie town control to stronghold timers to make sure regardless of a factions size or resources it would have a fair chance at corrupting a town.... In addition defending sigils is harder (esp. with the new base designs) that a timer reduction for defenders might provide a measure of balance.

 

[Traveller]

Locations Stat Loss is Important: Strongholds, Faction Towns and Silver Monster Spawns.

I think lore nailed the main issue of statloss. I am in favor of stat loss myself, but it is true that it has real meaning only in the above mentioned contexts. It could even be argued that also silver monster spawns are not that much relevant.

As a pro-statloss I might still consider myself content if statloss were limited to the above-mentioned situations.

 

[Traveller]

Feedback about bases

Contrary to many people I am not, in principle, against bigger bases. However, there are some things that should be taken into account when designing them.

1) Multi-level bases are too prone to exploits. And when I say too prone, I mean a lot. While I am sure you might be able to correct many of them, multilevels in UO are so foobarred that it's too easy to miss something or just not being able to fix it.

2) I understand the willingness of building a "real" stronghold. However, this bridge has already been burned lots of years ago, when the tram/fel split has been introduced. As things stand now, there is no point to hang out in fel, let alone in a faction stronghold. Even the crafting stations, which still offer a service, are nothing more than ornaments, because if I have to craft something I will go to a crafting station in trammel. Banks are useful during sigil defense, and will have no sense at any other moment. Unless bases start to offer services that can be found nowhere else, people won't use them, and all the design work will still be wallpaper that nobody will notice.

3) What is the rationale of having two sigil pillar sets per base?

I won't be giving an more feedback about bases for now. They are too bug-ridden yet to give anything more than generic opinions.

 

[Traveller]

Feedback about the ranking system

1) It is very difficult to give feedback about the system since it is so bug-ridden (at least in FT) that is impossible to understand what is really going on. I refer particularly to the negative stats which are obviously the result of overflows.

2) From reading mark's message I gathered the impression that the decay of the rank is connected to the real world time. So if you don't fight for X days your rank will decay (or something along those lines). What I suggest is to tie the decay to the CHARACTER time. So, if I log onto my faction character once every 100 days, but every time I log on it I kick everybody's rear end, I should not lose that rank just because I did not log onto that char for 100 days. This allows to safeguard the casual player.

3) I am a thief so I am glad that faction thieves are kept into account in the ranking. Still, as people have pointed out the mechanism seems to be easily farmable. Are we right in this conclusion, or is there something we are missing?

4) What about faction crafters? As things stand they are not in the ranking system yet, am I right?

 

[tink'r_toiz]

Suggestion: Timer of 8 mins, reduced by one min for each town the faction currently controls. (There is still something to be said about the pre-emptive strike at a gate or enemy's home where people may be gathering to raid, or maintaining some elevated elements of risk by being a member of a faction and some non power based incentive to encourage members of a faction to participate in sigil raids and defenses for their own benefit)

I agree with most of what of what you say Lore and it is very workable. I need clarification on this one point tho. Do you mean reduce the timer for everyone to 8 minutes and then reduce it 1 minute for every controlled town with the potential of 0 stat loss for a faction that owns all 8 towns?

 

[Tina Small]

I'm just kind of thinking out loud here on way too little sleep. However, it occurred to me this morning that one reason for having such large passageways in the strongholds might be to accommodate or encourage the use of player-crafted barricades. If that's something the developers have in mind, it might also make more sense out of the decision to have a banker in the stronghold. And if someone else already mentioned this, my apologies. It slipped right past me and I'm still way too sleepy to be up and thinking about factions.

 

[R Traveler]

Just some ideas

As for faction crafting... err.. imbuing: allow over 100% mods with silver as 4th material. Total properties cap at 500 (or more for high rank?)
Make property cap tied to rank, 100%+5%*rank for example.
10 dex on a ring is 125% mod, so rank 5 required.

that would go along with the problems with faction artifacts being overpowered.

everyone will be in factions for the sole purpose of imbuing better equipment.

Faction equipment can be limited to fel ruleset only. Its not related to crafting, its another problem.

 

[Lord Strahd]

I remember back in the early days of the server, back when we had reds running around everywhere. I didnt agree with that playstyle back then, however I wasnt happy with them getting stat loss either.

Ill be honest with you....8 minutes to me wont matter. It takes about that long to make an equipment run.

I dont understand the logic in it though... Many folks here are arguing for stat loss, but on a very short timer. Why even have it in the game if its not going to be enough to notice?

However if thats going to help people sleep at night...then make it happen.

rolleyes:

 

[o2bavr6]

imbued items are 1000x better..

Please imbue me a faction Orni.

When your done let me know and ill come get it from you. Thanks

 

[o2bavr6]

None of us feel that Faction Arties are overpowered either, but if that's what the consensus is, go ahead and remove the bonuses and make them the same as their originals. Wouldn't bother me or my guild in the slightest.

However, I don't want to see them go away either. Many of us xshard to fight on other shards, and we simply cannot afford to have an Orny on every shard on top of other things.

They should be lowered to what regular items are at, such as the orni. A faction Orni should be no different except easier to get and cheaper.

 

[o2bavr6]

Faction equipment can be limited to fel ruleset only.

Correction, Faction equipment MUST be limited to Fel. PERIOD!

 

[o2bavr6]

I remember back in the early days of the server, back when we had reds running around everywhere. I didnt agree with that playstyle back then, however I wasnt happy with them getting stat loss either.

Ill be honest with you....8 minutes to me wont matter. It takes about that long to make an equipment run.

I dont understand the logic in it though... Many folks here are arguing for stat loss, but on a very short timer. Why even have it in the game if its not going to be enough to notice?

This is exactly my feeling on the issue.

Also to me, wanting to put people into stat loss is just a way of griefing.

Factions should be for people who want to battle. For me I love pvping, I could do it all day long. It makes no difference to me if the person resses and comes back to fight. I say good, this means I can fight for longer.

As for Risk vs Reward, why should the risk be statloss? How about the risk be, only the people who control the faction towns can wear faction items?

That is risk vs reward, not statloss.

I've said it a million times, I Pay to Play not to sit around.

 

[Nonel]

As for Risk vs Reward, why should the risk be statloss? How about the risk be, only the people who control the faction towns can wear faction items?

Because the bigger faction would be made slightly MORE powerful by the arties, and possibly create a stranglehold on the towns...killing factions.

I've said it a million times. You cannot give the more powerful group even more power. When one group starts to win too much, factions die. Ive seen it happen on several shards over the years.