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Factions Testing Commencement

C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
Possibly but still the inference to "not caring" about what lesser (how that is to be defined is still pending) players do was there. If it was not meant as a slight, then he can explain exactly what he meant but imo it shows his predisposition to considering successful, point earning pvpers to be the "ones that count".

I am willing to listen and reconsider my current evaluation of his statement.
I don't feel as if he was putting anyone in the "only they count" situation, his remarks were the same as any person, just because we play the game and he develops the game does not mean he should not be able to use the same wording as we do. The "crappy" players are those who are not as good as the good players, his remark was -the good players will want to be the underdog- because they are good and will gain more points from defeating the dozens of mediocre to "bad" players. It is hard to relay "tone" over the internet.

damn right ...
Oh brother...

Look, I'm sure ya'll are sick and tired of hearing from me, and the good news is the boss has made plans that covers just about all of my weekend. I'm looking forward to getting out and doing whatever she has planned with the fam.
-whole bunch of other stuff-

Well?
As a person who agrees with you, sometimes you have to step back and ignore certain cases of ignorance, especially repeated ignorance.
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
If you must know..

They've been wiping thier ass with pvpers ever since trammel came out.. Pushing them out of the game and ignoring everything. When they actually start to look at factions (the last real pvp system left) they let someone do it with out basing any of the changes off of the faction communities input. It's a slap in the face. Which, I guess I have to admit, Hurts even though we all pretty much saw it coming.

You can try and help the factions by putting in a patch and mess things up once and call it a mistake. OK, OK we can work with it and not make the same mistake. Do it 2 patches in a row and you really have to take a step back and think about it, maybe reassess everything. Do it 3 times in a row,,, wow... you're just trolling.

It's not reasonable to say they are taking us seriously. The only explanation is they don't care. Whether its the devs, the COs,, it doesn't marter.. We are, and have been getting ****ed over for too long to care if I hurt feelings.
Except this current round has high signs of caring, Sure the bases are not....as thought out for "today's" world, but in a world they imagine the bases would not be so bad (talking about large scale pvp). And the point system is not the end of the world, assuming it will work, but again there seems to be a high level of caring for this so I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt that the system will work. And remember this is suppose to be the start of a much grander vision they have for factions. I have been here since the beginning, I am just less hostile when it seems like they are trying. There was one thing I was not to fond of....The change from 4 to 3 factions, not real pleased with that idea, but again.....maybe in the bigger picture it will be ok.
 

o2bavr6

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Didn't say faction items aren't good. I said imbued items are 1000x better.

You make a suit with faction **** and plain barbed items.. I'll make one with all imbued **** and I guarantee my suit will be better..
but with that said, isn't it possible to make a suit by imbuing and faction items? that would be equally as good as your fully imubed suit?
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
but with that said, isn't it possible to make a suit by imbuing and faction items? that would be equally as good as your fully imubed suit?
Depends on the type of suit, for what kind of template. if that suit incorporates any arty that would be a faction arty, for instance, if you made a suit that HAD to have the crystaline ring, because you needed focus and magery skill bonus, etc, then u use the faction one, then yes ur suit would be better.

Not many templates HAVE to have a specific artifact.

If you need to have a spirit of the totem, or mace and shields, sure, u just got better resists or 10% dmg increase. the folded steels? an extra 10 dci
 
L

Locryn Finck

Guest
The faction items give you DCI/HCI that you would otherwise have to mortgage some other stat to achieve. And in a time when having 45 of either is considered gimped, that little bit adds up in a big way. Yes, you can imbue amazing suits. I just wish the HCI/DCI were not there as this tantalizing carrot on a stick. I would be willing to go back to the days of HLA/HLD actually affecting me if it meant faction artis were duplicates. As a warrior, when you look at the Primer on Arms and Stormgrips - thats 20 HCI you wont be getting otherwise no matter how much you spend imbuing. For those on the "IM THE BEST IN UO" warpath, that is an impossible figure to resist.

Either that, or let imbuers put HCI/DCI on items. That wont happen though. It isn't so much about HAVING to use a faction artifact. It is just that the incentive I think is so strong, it has drawn way too big a chunk of the already small pvp population in to a very restrictive faction system. And many people are not far sighted enough to really pay attention to the aftershocks. It really has reduced casual, open pvp (if not nearly eliminated).
 

Cardell

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
but with that said, isn't it possible to make a suit by imbuing and faction items? that would be equally as good as your fully imubed suit?
Not really.. You can max out all your stats on just imbued items. You get the MR from the brac.. no doubt the faction orni is godly.. but looking at all templates.. most of the faction stuff isn't required.. its cheaper for sure.. but not required.. You don't need a single faction item for M/W templates (again the orni adds the 3 mr but I have like 19 MR on my suit.. 16 really wouldn't hurt...)
 

Nonel

Sage
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Believe it or not, Mark, not everyone in factions is in it for arties and high scores. Your theory on better people trickling to the smaller factions is flawed in that regard.
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
Believe it or not, Mark, not everyone in factions is in it for arties and high scores. Your theory on better people trickling to the smaller factions is flawed in that regard.
Well, it could be combined with a number of other theories, People in it for "pvp" are not going to stay in the larger faction as it would limit their pvping, or lower it, or maybe even make it so that it is almost not existent. In this case, gaining points would become a bit easier for them. Also most people who are in it for these reasons are to show their "superior" rank basically accomplishes this. Sure Mark's theory is not "100%" accurate, but it has basis enough to be correct, and there are reasons for the rest of the people to flow in the same fashion.
 

Lady Michelle

Sprite Full SP
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Cloak‡1688272 said:
I don't feel as if he was putting anyone in the "only they count" situation, his remarks were the same as any person, just because we play the game and he develops the game does not mean he should not be able to use the same wording as we do. The "crappy" players are those who are not as good as the good players, his remark was -the good players will want to be the underdog- because they are good and will gain more points from defeating the dozens of mediocre to "bad" players. It is hard to relay "tone" over the internet.

As a person who agrees with you, sometimes you have to step back and ignore certain cases of ignorance, especially repeated ignorance.
Him being a Dev should not be using the word crappy to define any player on this game It is not professional.
 

tink'r_toiz

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
I know it will be a shock to quite a few but there is such a thing as loyalty to one's faction.

loyalty = unswerving in allegiance; faithful to a cause

No matter if I was the BEST player in UO (however that is defined/decided) I would NEVER leave my faction.
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
Him being a Dev should not be using the word crappy to define any player on this game It is not professional.
"Professional" Isn't professional, Terms sum up groups of words, this is true for every word in every language. Each word is defined by a group of other words, so really the choice of words is based on interpretation, Just like there are really no bad words in any language, there are bad intentions. Just because Society is degraded does not mean everyone should bend to the will of the "weak minded masses". Honestly if I said you suck, It would mean you are not as good as me. Or if I said you suck compared to so and so, it would mean the same except replace "me" with "so and so". If I say it in this fashion, the "masses" would be Offended. But if I said "Your ability is lesser than my own" The masses would not read between the lines and see "you suck". Intent is what divides, it is "Professional" to use any and all words in the English language, if the intent of those words is present. Obviously much harder to portray Intent over the internet, as often times "tone" is hard to discern, but it does not change the nature of things.

"People can only make you Feel lesser if you give them the power to do so."
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
I know it will be a shock to quite a few but there is such a thing as loyalty to one's faction.

loyalty = unswerving in allegiance; faithful to a cause

No matter if I was the BEST player in UO (however that is defined/decided) I would NEVER leave my faction.
This is a rarer Quality in today's game. But alas, if everyone was in your faction, and quite literally no one was in any other faction, would you still stay? Also, if the other people in your faction were not "loyal" as in, they were to always attack you, would you continue to be loyal to them and not fight back? I completely agree with you, and I find it saddening that people jump around factions all the time, but the reality is as it is.
 

Lady Michelle

Sprite Full SP
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Cloak‡1688408 said:
"Professional" Isn't professional, Terms sum up groups of words, this is true for every word in every language. Each word is defined by a group of other words, so really the choice of words is based on interpretation, Just like there are really no bad words in any language, there are bad intentions. Just because Society is degraded does not mean everyone should bend to the will of the "weak minded masses". Honestly if I said you suck, It would mean you are not as good as me. Or if I said you suck compared to so and so, it would mean the same except replace "me" with "so and so". If I say it in this fashion, the "masses" would be Offended. But if I said "Your ability is lesser than my own" The masses would not read between the lines and see "you suck". Intent is what divides, it is "Professional" to use any and all words in the English language, if the intent of those words is present. Obviously much harder to portray Intent over the internet, as often times "tone" is hard to discern, but it does not change the nature of things.

"People can only make you Feel lesser if you give them the power to do so."
Better word could of been used to define what he was getting at. Of course I know he wasn't calling me crappy, cuz Im so uber at what I do. uberly stealth, uberly track, uberly heal I could go on but I think you get the point. oh yes and one more thing I even uberly die.
 

Kellgory

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Just a thought on the stat loss issue, and that was what if the faction commander had an option on the base stone to adjust how long and how much you loose while in stat. The faction commader had three options that they could set and that is stat time, percentage of skill lost, and percentage of stat (health, stamina, mana) lost. Reduce the timer down to 15 minutes with an option for the faction commander to move it down to 10 minutes or move it up to 20 minutes. At 15 minutes, everything stays the same in that you loose 1/3 of your skill points but no effect on health/stamina/mana. If the faction commander moves the stat loss timer down to 10 minutes, then they would have to change the stat option so that you would loose 1/3 or maybe 1/6 of your health/stamina/mana in addition to the 1/3 of the skill point loss. But say if the faction commander moves the stat loss timer to 20 minutes then no loss on health/stamina/mana but the loss on skills get halved to 1/6th so that now instead of going from 120 to 80 you would instead go from 120 to 100. That would open the option of do you shorten the timer but give up more stats or lengthen the timer and loose less.
 

tink'r_toiz

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
I am a True Britainnian not just a faction player. Yes, I would be here no matter what. We have braved the storm of hugely outnumberd to hugely outnumbering the enemy and I have and will stay. That is what loyalty is ... .unswerving in allegiance; faithful to a cause.
 

tink'r_toiz

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Just a thought on the stat loss issue, and that was what if the faction commander had an option on the base stone to adjust how long and how much you loose while in stat. The faction commader had three options that they could set and that is stat time, percentage of skill lost, and percentage of stat (health, stamina, mana) lost. Reduce the timer down to 15 minutes with an option for the faction commander to move it down to 10 minutes or move it up to 20 minutes. At 15 minutes, everything stays the same in that you loose 1/3 of your skill points but no effect on health/stamina/mana. If the faction commander moves the stat loss timer down to 10 minutes, then they would have to change the stat option so that you would loose 1/3 or maybe 1/6 of your health/stamina/mana in addition to the 1/3 of the skill point loss. But say if the faction commander moves the stat loss timer to 20 minutes then no loss on health/stamina/mana but the loss on skills get halved to 1/6th so that now instead of going from 120 to 80 you would instead go from 120 to 100. That would open the option of do you you shorten the timer but give up more stats or lengthen the timer and loose less.
It would be interesting to see this in action. I feel they would choose the shorter time because a lot of players just go off and wait out stat these days anyway so waiting 10 instead of 20 would be very appealing.
 

Cardell

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Just a thought on the stat loss issue, and that was what if the faction commander had an option on the base stone to adjust how long and how much you loose while in stat. The faction commader had three options that they could set and that is stat time, percentage of skill lost, and percentage of stat (health, stamina, mana) lost. Reduce the timer down to 15 minutes with an option for the faction commander to move it down to 10 minutes or move it up to 20 minutes. At 15 minutes, everything stays the same in that you loose 1/3 of your skill points but no effect on health/stamina/mana. If the faction commander moves the stat loss timer down to 10 minutes, then they would have to change the stat option so that you would loose 1/3 or maybe 1/6 of your health/stamina/mana in addition to the 1/3 of the skill point loss. But say if the faction commander moves the stat loss timer to 20 minutes then no loss on health/stamina/mana but the loss on skills get halved to 1/6th so that now instead of going from 120 to 80 you would instead go from 120 to 100. That would open the option of do you shorten the timer but give up more stats or lengthen the timer and loose less.
lol.. I kind of like this idea.. Maybe not as low as 10 minutes but this could be a pretty cool feature.. More stuff for the CL to control as well. Definitely an interesting idea.
 

Logrus

UO Legend
VIP
Stratics Veteran
Let's see if we can't un-derail the thread.

The "vision" of the scoring system is so that faction participation gets rewarded.
So as much as possible player activity within the faction system should get you points.

We're working out the bugs in the point calculations system (divide by 0 VERY BAD)

But the theory behind the point boards is to allow players to get an overall feel of how they are doing in factions.

So after you have spent noting all the stuff being tracked, and then wondering why would you give points for that?
Consider the following
The current system only tracks kill points. So what incentive is there to be anything other than a stealth archer hiding out at a good res spot?
There's really no reward, incentive or tracking of anything other than the last hit.

The in progress system allows us to rank based on what players are actually doing.
So dishing out alot of damage will net you some points. Not getting that last hit won't mean that your effort amounted to nothing.
Getting that kill shot will still be sweet, but if all you're going to be doing is waiting for the kill shot, you are really not being as useful as the guy dishing out the damage that allowed you to make the kill shot.

Tracking things like stealth, and healing.
If you're stealthing around and reporting and gathering intel for your faction, you are performing a valuable service.
Sitting back and healing your faction mates even though you aren't in the fray directly, is also a valuable service.

The important thing to remember is that if you sat there and fought one guy and got X points from damage, Y points for healing.
X could be 100000000 and Y could be 10000000000.
You're still gonna be considered low rank if everyone else has done 10 times as much damage, healing, or stealthing than you.


So you can sit there with a buddy and beat on each other morning and night till I convince the Power's that be to let me make Frying pans, chairs, and lutes wieldable in combat, but in the end you still are competing with anyone else who's actively participating.
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Let's see if we can't un-derail the thread.

The "vision" of the scoring system is so that faction participation gets rewarded.
So as much as possible player activity within the faction system should get you points.

We're working out the bugs in the point calculations system (divide by 0 VERY BAD)

But the theory behind the point boards is to allow players to get an overall feel of how they are doing in factions.

So after you have spent noting all the stuff being tracked, and then wondering why would you give points for that?
Consider the following
The current system only tracks kill points. So what incentive is there to be anything other than a stealth archer hiding out at a good res spot?
There's really no reward, incentive or tracking of anything other than the last hit.

The in progress system allows us to rank based on what players are actually doing.
So dishing out alot of damage will net you some points. Not getting that last hit won't mean that your effort amounted to nothing.
Getting that kill shot will still be sweet, but if all you're going to be doing is waiting for the kill shot, you are really not being as useful as the guy dishing out the damage that allowed you to make the kill shot.

Tracking things like stealth, and healing.
If you're stealthing around and reporting and gathering intel for your faction, you are performing a valuable service.
Sitting back and healing your faction mates even though you aren't in the fray directly, is also a valuable service.

The important thing to remember is that if you sat there and fought one guy and got X points from damage, Y points for healing.
X could be 100000000 and Y could be 10000000000.
You're still gonna be considered low rank if everyone else has done 10 times as much damage, healing, or stealthing than you.


So you can sit there with a buddy and beat on each other morning and night till I convince the Power's that be to let me make Frying pans, chairs, and lutes wieldable in combat, but in the end you still are competing with anyone else who's actively participating.

Think we understand that part, and thank you for thinking of this and taking the neccesary steps to implement it. one question. can the numbers be scaled down some? seing numbers in the millions/billions, etc, is rough.




till I convince the Power's that be to let me make Frying pans, chairs, and lutes wieldable in combat
ahahahahaha, i get it! this is the reason that there is deco in the bases, so we can smash our opponents through tables and smack portraits over there heads! i like it! =)
 

Lady Michelle

Sprite Full SP
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Let's see if we can't un-derail the thread.

The "vision" of the scoring system is so that faction participation gets rewarded.
So as much as possible player activity within the faction system should get you points.

We're working out the bugs in the point calculations system (divide by 0 VERY BAD)

But the theory behind the point boards is to allow players to get an overall feel of how they are doing in factions.

So after you have spent noting all the stuff being tracked, and then wondering why would you give points for that?
Consider the following
The current system only tracks kill points. So what incentive is there to be anything other than a stealth archer hiding out at a good res spot?
There's really no reward, incentive or tracking of anything other than the last hit.

The in progress system allows us to rank based on what players are actually doing.
So dishing out alot of damage will net you some points. Not getting that last hit won't mean that your effort amounted to nothing.
Getting that kill shot will still be sweet, but if all you're going to be doing is waiting for the kill shot, you are really not being as useful as the guy dishing out the damage that allowed you to make the kill shot.

Tracking things like stealth, and healing.
If you're stealthing around and reporting and gathering intel for your faction, you are performing a valuable service.
Sitting back and healing your faction mates even though you aren't in the fray directly, is also a valuable service.

The important thing to remember is that if you sat there and fought one guy and got X points from damage, Y points for healing.
X could be 100000000 and Y could be 10000000000.
You're still gonna be considered low rank if everyone else has done 10 times as much damage, healing, or stealthing than you.


So you can sit there with a buddy and beat on each other morning and night till I convince the Power's that be to let me make Frying pans, chairs, and lutes wieldable in combat, but in the end you still are competing with anyone else who's actively participating.

Think we understand that part, and thank you for thinking of this and taking the neccesary steps to implement it. one question. can the numbers be scaled down some? seing numbers in the millions/billions, etc, is rough.




till I convince the Power's that be to let me make Frying pans, chairs, and lutes wieldable in combat
ahahahahaha, i get it! this is the reason that there is deco in the bases, so we can smash our opponents through tables and smack portraits over there heads! i like it! =)
you will need the throwing skill to throw things. be funny to able to throw a frying pan at some one tho.
 

Martyna Zmuir

Crazed Zealot
Agreed, but not entirely shocking when the producer derisively calls 90% of the p(l)ayerbase 'carebears' on G4...
They are carebears are they not? I still don't see what the guy did wrong..
I may be in factions, but I still live and 'work' in Trammel. The fact the vast majority of the p(l)ayerbase chose Tram over Fel isn't something that the Producer of UO should be making light of. Just like what Mark did with his "crappy player" comment.

When the Dev Team starts to think of the people who allow them to keep a job in unprofessional and derisive terms, and use such words in public communications, then there is a deeper and more troubling issue.
 

Logrus

UO Legend
VIP
Stratics Veteran
Hopefully I was exaggerating on the billions of points and when we iron out the issues with the point system itself there should be less dramatic occurrences.

*Only 4 minutes to re-derail my attempt at un-derailing*
*Now I must attempt to re-un-derail the re-railed-un-derailed derailed railed thread*

Try saying that fast.
 

Cardell

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Let's see if we can't un-derail the thread.

The "vision" of the scoring system is so that faction participation gets rewarded.
So as much as possible player activity within the faction system should get you points.

We're working out the bugs in the point calculations system (divide by 0 VERY BAD)

But the theory behind the point boards is to allow players to get an overall feel of how they are doing in factions.

So after you have spent noting all the stuff being tracked, and then wondering why would you give points for that?
Consider the following
The current system only tracks kill points. So what incentive is there to be anything other than a stealth archer hiding out at a good res spot?
There's really no reward, incentive or tracking of anything other than the last hit.

The in progress system allows us to rank based on what players are actually doing.
So dishing out alot of damage will net you some points. Not getting that last hit won't mean that your effort amounted to nothing.
Getting that kill shot will still be sweet, but if all you're going to be doing is waiting for the kill shot, you are really not being as useful as the guy dishing out the damage that allowed you to make the kill shot.

Tracking things like stealth, and healing.
If you're stealthing around and reporting and gathering intel for your faction, you are performing a valuable service.
Sitting back and healing your faction mates even though you aren't in the fray directly, is also a valuable service.

The important thing to remember is that if you sat there and fought one guy and got X points from damage, Y points for healing.
X could be 100000000 and Y could be 10000000000.
You're still gonna be considered low rank if everyone else has done 10 times as much damage, healing, or stealthing than you.


So you can sit there with a buddy and beat on each other morning and night till I convince the Power's that be to let me make Frying pans, chairs, and lutes wieldable in combat, but in the end you still are competing with anyone else who's actively participating.
Look dude.. You're not a pvper so its probably pretty much impossible to explain this to you.. When it comes to pvp the way you think... is lethargic. You are behind the curve.. you are catering weak pvpers at the expense of better ones..

I posted it a million times, its there for all you devs to see on multiple boards... Healing, stealthing, gathering intel... these are skills that reward you in there own way.. You can't give people points for doing these things.. It ruins the whole point of the point system. If you do not heal your guildies and you just sit there with FS up.. your a ****ty guildie and your guild is going to lose A LOT. People who are accustomed to pvp don't do this anymore.. The fact that you are bringing this up is hilarious.. I have honestly not heard someone in my guild/alliance complain about kill stealing for years.. YEARS! The pvp is so fast now, if someone is that petty, they wont last long in pvp.. just sitting there with the spells up.. It's laughable that you even think of it now..

Stealthing gives you such an advantage its not even funny. By giving people points for stealthing doesn't show how active they are,,, it gives more people incentive to use a gimp skill.. You're going to turn every shard into the mockary that is siege perilous.. Everyone is gonna stealthers.. The point system was fine back in the day.. Stop making this so god damn complex.. it doesn't have to be that way..

The main reason why the point system sucks so much now is because the points are so high.. dur... Why would you try and make a system that resembles that after 99% of the ppl who are active in them now absolutely hate it.

If you want to reward ppl for being active fine.. have a leader board for your scoring system but have your actual kill points separated..

God, what a sham.. The point system is PVP based.. not activity based... If you don't want people to sit on stealth archers.. FINE.. thats great.. I agree with that.. im sure most ppl do.. Make it so it takes additional mana to attack out of hiding or make it impossible to attack out of hiding unless its the special. Make them show themselves first.. or make stealthers damage reduced..

You want to get rid of ganking.. GREAT! fix the ridiculous sleep spell in Mysticism and make it harder to dismount people.. wtf.. you are jacking up a faction system because you guys don't know how to make a good pvp system.. Thats not how your supposed to do it.. From the way you talk about it, I sounds like you have no idea what the state of pvp is,,, which is HORRIBLE...
 

Cardell

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
I may be in factions, but I still live and 'work' in Trammel. The fact the vast majority of the p(l)ayerbase chose Tram over Fel isn't something that the Producer of UO should be making light of. Just like what Mark did with his "crappy player" comment.

When the Dev Team starts to think of the people who allow them to keep a job in unprofessional and derisive terms, and use such words in public communications, then there is a deeper and more troubling issue.
I'm sure the fact that people choose Tram over fel has nothing to do with them starting in Tram and being babied by softies.. I'm sure of it... Not being exposed to pvp until you get wtfpwned by some jacked out archer who kills you in 3 hits is probably the best way I can think of getting into pvp.

Most of the ppl are in tram because all of the old pvpers realized it was a lost cause and bounced to another game.. I guess I can't blame them now..
 

JC the Builder

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Consider the following
The current system only tracks kill points. So what incentive is there to be anything other than a stealth archer hiding out at a good res spot?
There's really no reward, incentive or tracking of anything other than the last hit.
The ultimate goal of factions is to control the 8 sigil towns. If you fail, then you didn't get war horses, armor, guards and vendors (which don't mean anything today due to changes over the past 8 years). Stuff that benefited everyone in the faction.

Now you are focusing on giving everyone a way to track progress which has nothing to do with controlling the towns. Stealthing, intel, healing, damage; that all has no bearing on success in factions. You are making the individual more important than the Faction itself.

The only true measure of success is the name next to the town on your faction stone.


If you want to track points, how about making a sensor around sigil posts in strongholds. Every 5 minutes it scans all characters in the vicinity. If you rack up 2 hours of guard/assault time, you get 1 point. If the sigil is successfully corrupted you get 2 bonus points. Something like this would probably be the most fair way to do a scoring system.
 

Lady Michelle

Sprite Full SP
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'm sure the fact that people choose Tram over fel has nothing to do with them starting in Tram and being babied by softies.. I'm sure of it... Not being exposed to pvp until you get wtfpwned by some jacked out archer who kills you in 3 hits is probably the best way I can think of getting into pvp.

Most of the ppl are in tram because all of the old pvpers realized it was a lost cause and bounced to another game.. I guess I can't blame them now..
Trammel players stay in Trammel because they don't want to be doing something in Felucca, and a bunch of pvpers roll over them, and take it away from them.So to them its better to stay in Trammel, and farm gold to get power scrolls, sots and the new items. They will even buy gold for real cash if they really want something that bad.
Players from trammel will not join factions to be easily slaughter by the pvp based players if they are going to be rolled over, as they would be rolled over if they did a champ spawn. The new bases need to be easier to defend not harder to defend. players need to know you can be part of factions, and have a good time even if they choose not to pvp. like Ara, Tinkz,I and many others who choose to play like we do. Til this is realized the devs will never get anyone else to join factions and it will fail.
 

Cailleach

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The ultimate goal of factions is to control the 8 sigil towns. If you fail, then you didn't get war horses, armor, guards and vendors (which don't mean anything today due to changes over the past 8 years). Stuff that benefited everyone in the faction.

Now you are focusing on giving everyone a way to track progress which has nothing to do with controlling the towns. Stealthing, intel, healing, damage; that all has no bearing on success in factions. You are making the individual more important than the Faction itself.

The only true measure of success is the name next to the town on your faction stone.

I would have to disagree. Those who support the fighters are just as important as the fighters themselves; each has a role to play in controlling the towns, so it's fair that each should get a reward proportionate to the effort that they put in. After all, why should I sit and guard sigils or heal guildies if I get zilch in return from game mechanics, whilst they're killing everyone in sight and racking up points?
 

Lady Michelle

Sprite Full SP
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Hopefully I was exaggerating on the billions of points and when we iron out the issues with the point system itself there should be less dramatic occurrences.

*Only 4 minutes to re-derail my attempt at un-derailing*
*Now I must attempt to re-un-derail the re-railed-un-derailed derailed railed thread*

Try saying that fast.
Try it eating :popcorn: and chugging :pint: :)
 

Martyna Zmuir

Crazed Zealot
I'm sure the fact that people choose Tram over fel has nothing to do with them starting in Tram and being babied by softies.. I'm sure of it... Not being exposed to pvp until you get wtfpwned by some jacked out archer who kills you in 3 hits is probably the best way I can think of getting into pvp.

Most of the ppl are in tram because all of the old pvpers realized it was a lost cause and bounced to another game.. I guess I can't blame them now..
I'm not adressing the Fel/Tram split.. That can of worms has been opened one too many times, and neither side gets the other - or ever will.

PvP is fine, hell, PvP happens in Tram all the time as guild wars...

I RP, and ALL the RP guilds in the community are allied and/or warred to eachother. We just have strict rules as to when and how PvP happens. (No KoSing, no looting, no trash talking being the main ones. We also have a 15 min death timer - You die, your out of the battle for 15 mins..) We are also ALL in factions. The 'good' side is in TB, and the 'evil' side is in Minax.

*shrugs*

All I was saying before is that how the Devs choose to talk to their customers is very telling. You insult your customers, you lose them. You lose credibility, you lose them. Calling them crappy or carebears is best left off the public record, in fact its best left only in their minds - As if they truly believe that, then they shouldn't be anywhere near this game.



Trammel players stay in Trammel because they don't want to be doing something in Felucca, and a bunch of pvpers roll over them, and take it away from them.So to them its better to stay in Trammel, and farm gold to get power scrolls, sots and the new items. They will even buy gold for real cash if they really want something that bad.
Players from trammel will not join factions to be easily slaughter by the pvp based players if they are going to be rolled over, as they would be rolled over if they did a champ spawn. The new bases need to be easier to defend not harder to defend. players need to know you can be part of factions, and have a good time even if they choose not to pvp. like Ara, Tinkz,I and many others who choose to play like we do. Til this is realized the devs will never get anyone else to join factions and it will fail.
This is very accurate. I stopped coming to Fel for several years because the gank squads got old. The normal Trammel player doesn't want to deal with that on a continual basis, dying so someone can get their jollies only goes so far.

Factions are still gank squads, just with a "purpose" (poor fiction though it may be). These proposed changes will not draw new people into factions, or they won't stay longer than a month or two...

Each faction is supposedly like a militia, fighting for its own goals. Were it in the real world, people who are in combat support roles or inteligence services would still gain rank despite not being on the front lines killing the enemy. If you don't think they deserve to earn points/rank then you are delusional. See how you do without the theives and spies for a few weeks... Watch factions grind to a halt.
 

slayer888

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Just tested about the new system.. I think it have many flaws and will just drive people out of the game.

#1. It is really quite annoying to reset all characters currrently wearing the faction arties (well unless I stay at home whole day long to look at UO)... how about the ones paying the same monthly fee and not having so much time to play UO? As mentioned, 1 char should be okay.... 2 char also no problem, 3 chars also can handle, but what if people have 10+ chars???? So you're saying everyone should have only 1-3 chars to play pvp??? <-- again limitation of pvp acts.

This means telling them to rework what they earned and try again.....

#2. The point systems again is screwed up. Point system in faction is utterly useless. I dont see a point of keeping it. No matter how you do it, there are people who gonna exploit it. Why not just remove it and make it similar gear for everybody to compete about the towns/sigils? Why still so stubborn that wanted to keep faction points? Does it really do anything benefit to factions??? All I see is people whining about how kill points sucks etc... And this new system is even more worse.

#3. The main point of factions should be focussed on participation and controlling towns. Controlling towns should have some kind of award to the controlling faction. Say increase the number of days (1 week) time corruption time for the control status and during that (1 week), there will be some daily event exclusive only for the controlling faction.

Whilst some daily event could be participated by ALL the factions:-

Fixed Daily Event schedule : Say 7pm to 8pm everyday.

EXAMPLE:-
Such as rescuing (some NPC belongs to TB) in whatever dungeon.. So a message will be presented to all the factions at that time. If TB is able to rescue that NPC out of the dungeon during the "daily event time limit", then they will be rewarded. Other factions successfully stopping the TB from rescue will get all the loots from the dead TBs, and the dead TB NPC items...

NPC will die in dungeon if TB cannot safely take him/her out of the dungeon during the event period..

#4. Sigil function should be reworked.

Instead of total of 8 sigils, we should reduce the number of sigils to 3 only.

Sigil corruption process only starts when ALL "3" sigils are placed in the same stronghold.

3 sigil doesnt mean 3 towns... # of sigils and # of towns should not be related at all. After a faction corrupt those 3 sigils, they will control 8 towns same as now.

#5. transparency of sigils corruption status.

The point of having faction in the first place is create "Participation" right? Or do we want some thief steal and hide there to wait for 10 hours to complete the stupid job??????

Upon the "3" sigils are placed in the same stronghold. First faction message should be showed to all faction members (that are online) that the sigils are currently in which stronghold (after 1 hour of corruption in that stronghold).

Why 1 hour? So the people who stole the sigil could prepare their items, etc... to defend.

So every hour, faction message will continue to tell, how long until "TB/CoM/SL/Minax" will corrupt those 3 sigils.

Again, in my opinion, we will need to make this corruption process seperated into 2 parts to avoid a exploit of time for this:-

Why? If some thief just go by 1am to start corruption of 3 sigils, I dont think rarely will have ppl so patient to stay up until 6am to take those sigils back

To avoid this coward act happening, we will seperate this corruption into 2 parts.

1st corruption: 5 hours time (anytime available as long as the sigils are not being corrupted by any other faction)

2nd corruption: 2 hours time (can only choose the shard's peak hours; say every night 8-10pm shard's local time.

The 2nd corruption time will be noted to all faction members upon their login. The location and time it will be taking place.

If the 1st corruption are during example, 6pm to 11pm on Monday. The 2nd corruption will then be on 8pm to 10pm on Tuesday.


#6. Faction New Reporter NPC should be added. To report the town status every 1-2 hours upon asking by the faction people.

#7. Enhance the Finance Minister and the Sheriff system.

The number of Minister and Sheriff should be increased to 2 from original 1 per town. Although having only 1 also okay.

Finance Minister could access the town trading portfolio (which is a totally new system which I could not think of at the moment)... this trading portfolio will have effect the controlling faction total income per day on that town. This income can then be benefit to the faction stronghold "main stone"

Sheriff could access the current town security level (which is again a totally new system which I could not think of at the moment)... this security system will be related to the outcome of income the faction can earn per day. If security level is too low, thieves/crimes/monsters will increase etc...


#8. Faction stronghold "main stone" function. It should have something to do with the silvers earned by controlling the towns right?

The silvers in the main stone can be used by the Commanding Lord for the following:-

1. purchase faction stronghold guards (limit to 6) can only place every 24 hours. Cannot place more than 6 even after 24 hours.

2. purchase faction stronghold merchant (limit to 2)

3. upgrade faction stronghold guards equipments

4. upgrade faction stronghold guards abilities

5. increase the quality and quantities of items selling by faction stronghold merchants

6. upkeep fee for faction stronghold guards and stronghold merchants

7. upgrade faction stronghold utilities for generate faster income for the faction stronghold "main stone"

etc...


Anyways, these are part of my idea that I've been suggesting with only "ONE" purpose.

Its to rid the barrier for all players and increase participations.

Faction arties should be treated as same as those artifacts you could get in UOSA, Trammel etc... it should NOT be limited only to those who pvp better or who can play 24 hours UO.

I think UO having the point system are just telling people the several things:-

1. You have not as much time to play UO, so you cannot enjoy this part

2. You have not got a faster connection, so you deserve to die and rest in peace and not enjoy the benefits

3. Your pvp skill sucks, so you dont deserve this. You just shouldn't come back to faction anymore.

4. You cannot have real life. Because you can be rank 5 on today, but next week you will become rank 4 and find out that your newly customized suit dropped in your bag.

WAY TO GO. Good thinking EA.

Again... barrier to players and participations. Honestly, this system will just drive people out of UO because it is indeed very annoying.
 

Chap

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I want to bring forward an important point to the devs

This already existed. We used to have crafters in our base making replacement potions and armor during fights. Stealthers would be going around giving us intelligence on enemy positions. There were websites dedicated to factions where people discussed who was winning with their friends.
Most of the ppl are in tram because all of the old pvpers realized it was a lost cause and bounced to another game..
As Mike mentioned, this is just the beginnings... provided there is support from the players to move forward. Cal's not going to let us keep working on it if noone seems to be interested. We are really excited about these changes so I hope you all well at least create a character on the Faction TC and check it out for yourself.

This.
I can confirm the same from Europa, we had dedicated websites to faction too. But over the years where faction gets nothing, no updates, lack of pvp balance and just nothin. As a a result of this people moved on, to places where PvP was a focus (i.e freeshards).
If you want focus on the faction system then make sure you bring this point to mr.Cal, theres a huge potential for winback customers.

I also want you to read this, it applies to me and many others aswell.
I pay EA $52.00 a month to maintain 4 accounts to play FACTIONS.
now make sure this review of faction becomes a success, and please listen to the customers, thanks.
 

Berethrain

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
So you can sit there with a buddy and beat on each other morning and night till I convince the Power's that be to let me make Frying pans, chairs, and lutes wieldable in combat, but in the end you still are competing with anyone else who's actively participating.

Yeah but your system is to exploitable. You can join factions and never even see another player and gain points simply by stealthing and healing. Before you even put this garbage into a test shard, we were against giving points for both of these. Why the hell do we bother?
 
L

Lilith Vysage II

Guest
I give up like their predecessors the devs are obviously going to ignore us in favor of their carebare stealther faction system I understand they worked hard on it but how about they log onto TC1 with us and let us show them what pvp really is they obviously dont have a clue... to shorten how can you change a system you dont understand? you asked for our criticism on the subject of your new changes and have ignored practically everything we have said im just gonna go play a home made shard if this system gets put in sware down
 
T

Traveller

Guest
In the military, I know there are people who spend their entire career and never shoot anyone. My dad was one of them, he was a dentist in the Air Force. He was valuable to them, he was "involved". But as far as I know he isn't much of a warrior.
On this point, I think it is very interesting to (finally) reward "support" roles. But I was thinking that there is lot of potential to increase support roles and dedicate characters.

For instance, my trap disarmer at the moment has 50 lockpicking, not because he needs it but just because it's a prereq for trap disarming. Since we have such big strongholds wouldn't it be nice for the defenders to be able to apply locks (faction craftables) on the doors, which can be opened (but not removed) by a GM lockpicker?

If you introduce in each stronghold a single unlockable path to sigils, and the other paths can be made all lockable, you would be making things harder for stealthers and runners, and still giving an attack force the option to choose between a frontal assault, or an attack on the more secured side.

Same thing may go for many skills. Like making easier to steal sigils with high stealing, or give some purpose to the snooping skill, which at the moment has no place in factions (odd like pvm thieves have more space in factions than pvp thieves, at the moment), etc, etc... I realize others might not agree but the more skills might find place in factions, the better, IMO.
 

o2bavr6

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Depends on the type of suit, for what kind of template. if that suit incorporates any arty that would be a faction arty, for instance, if you made a suit that HAD to have the crystaline ring, because you needed focus and magery skill bonus, etc, then u use the faction one, then yes ur suit would be better.

Not many templates HAVE to have a specific artifact.

If you need to have a spirit of the totem, or mace and shields, sure, u just got better resists or 10% dmg increase. the folded steels? an extra 10 dci
So then in theory the person in factions has an advantage over someone who isn't.. right?
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
Yeah but your system is to exploitable. You can join factions and never even see another player and gain points simply by stealthing and healing. Before you even put this garbage into a test shard, we were against giving points for both of these. Why the hell do we bother?
One of the three Dev's already mentioned that you can only gain points when an enemy is present, so simply "stealthing around" or "healing" is not enough, an opposing faction member has to be present. I am not sure what "present" means, and I am pretty sure it was broken on the test shard. But you have to at least be around an opposing faction member to get the points.

This does not make it entirely un-exploitable, but it does make it less so than you thought it was.
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
On this point, I think it is very interesting to (finally) reward "support" roles. But I was thinking that there is lot of potential to increase support roles and dedicate characters.

For instance, my trap disarmer at the moment has 50 lockpicking, not because he needs it but just because it's a prereq for trap disarming. Since we have such big strongholds wouldn't it be nice for the defenders to be able to apply locks (faction craftables) on the doors, which can be opened (but not removed) by a GM lockpicker?

If you introduce in each stronghold a single unlockable path to sigils, and the other paths can be made all lockable, you would be making things harder for stealthers and runners, and still giving an attack force the option to choose between a frontal assault, or an attack on the more secured side.

Same thing may go for many skills. Like making easier to steal sigils with high stealing, or give some purpose to the snooping skill, which at the moment has no place in factions (odd like pvm thieves have more space in factions than pvp thieves, at the moment), etc, etc... I realize others might not agree but the more skills might find place in factions, the better, IMO.
These are interesting ideas, I am not sure how snooping could be handled though. I do like the various Ideas on being able to blockade the entrances to some degree.
 
T

Traveller

Guest
Cloak‡1688797 said:
These are interesting ideas, I am not sure how snooping could be handled though.
I am not sure 100% myself. It sure would be an good step in that direction if sigils could be stolen from player's backpacks (currently they cannot). Apart from that, it is difficult for pvp thieves to be useful in pvp because insurance, lrc, quivers, and large stacks of bandies/potions make impossible for a thief to steal from a faction enemy.

Maybe having introducing some uninsurable "stuff" that must reside in the pack of factioned people to give some advantages during sigil battles? But honestly I have not a clear idea what that might be, or what its usefuleness might be. But the simple "sigil" idea might probably be extended a little more (beats me how, though :) ).
 

Berethrain

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
One of the three Dev's already mentioned that you can only gain points when an enemy is present, so simply "stealthing around" or "healing" is not enough, an opposing faction member has to be present. I am not sure what "present" means, and I am pretty sure it was broken on the test shard. But you have to at least be around an opposing faction member to get the points.


They also thought the point sytem worked. Regardless they need to get rid of them out of the point system.

And someone explain to me the intel part? You stealth around in the opposite base while oranges are present? Lol

I dont know how theyre figuring their point system but 1 kill = 1 point. 500 damage = 50% of a kill point. 20 sigil carries = 10% point. These are rough examples but you get the point. These then accrue and not vary as you run around on a continual comparison bases. The comparison can be made at the regular faction update time.
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
I dont know how theyre figuring their point system but 1 kill = 1 point. 500 damage = 50% of a kill point. 20 sigil carries = 10% point. These are rough examples but you get the point. These then accrue and not vary as you run around on a continual comparison bases. The comparison can be made at the regular faction update time.
I get the point, But I am not sure I understand the question...or proposition.

Are you asking if 500 damage = 50% of a kill? or are you suggesting it? Same for the later part of your statement/question. If I am not mistaken 1 point does not = 1 point as it is....the points we can see, or view, is more like.....amounts.....and x amounts = x points, so the "points" we see are more like, 1 kill = 1000 "points".

If you are suggesting 1 kill =1 point and x damage = x points. I could agree. Can not comment on your numbers since you are "estimating" and simply providing an example, but....they sort of work this way already, the numbers are just exorbitant, most likely because in the code 1 kill does in fact = 100 "points" converted to "1" in the relay.
 

Berethrain

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
If you are suggesting 1 kill =1 point and x damage = x points. I could agree. Can not comment on your numbers since you are "estimating" and simply providing an example, but....they sort of work this way already, the numbers are just exorbitant, most likely because in the code 1 kill does in fact = 100 "points" converted to "1" in the relay.
It is a suggestion. Instead of 1 kill = 1000 points (which is rediculous) it should be worth 1 and everything staggered underneath it.
 

Tina Small

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I just wanted to throw a few bits of information out there as an FYI:

  • I bumped into Logrus (Bruce) near the end of the SA beta early last September and learned that he's had a thief in factions for at least a couple of years.
  • Bruce was at the time running at least two characters around on the beta shard. One was a character with dev-quality gear (I posted a screen shot or two somewhere around here a few weeks ago) and the other one was, I believe, in much more "normal" gear, completely anonymous, and smashing away at stuff just like a regular player.
  • It was fairly late on a Sunday evening and definitely close to or past bedtime for someone who lives on the East coast and has to work the next morning.
  • He was very interested in my feedback and opinions.

Take the above information for whatever it's worth. Because of RL issues, I'm probably going to stay out of this discussion for now. Just don't have the time or the desire to expend on it. Good luck to everyone in hashing things out, be willing to compromise and experiment, and don't give up if this is something you truly care about.
 

tink'r_toiz

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Hopefully I was exaggerating on the billions of points and when we iron out the issues with the point system itself there should be less dramatic occurrences.

*Only 4 minutes to re-derail my attempt at un-derailing*
*Now I must attempt to re-un-derail the re-railed-un-derailed derailed railed thread*

Try saying that fast.
You I like ...
 

tink'r_toiz

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Look dude.. You're not a pvper so its probably pretty much impossible to explain this to you.. When it comes to pvp the way you think... is lethargic. You are behind the curve.. you are catering weak pvpers at the expense of better ones..

I posted it a million times, its there for all you devs to see on multiple boards... Healing, stealthing, gathering intel... these are skills that reward you in there own way.. You can't give people points for doing these things.. It ruins the whole point of the point system. If you do not heal your guildies and you just sit there with FS up.. your a ****ty guildie and your guild is going to lose A LOT. People who are accustomed to pvp don't do this anymore.. The fact that you are bringing this up is hilarious.. I have honestly not heard someone in my guild/alliance complain about kill stealing for years.. YEARS! The pvp is so fast now, if someone is that petty, they wont last long in pvp.. just sitting there with the spells up.. It's laughable that you even think of it now..
Agree. This game has become too much about instant gratification with numbers or items. There are things you do, like healing, gathering intel and even stealing sigs, that is done to reach a goal. That is the reward or should be. Example: All the pvpers that attend events, especially RP ones... first words "don't we get anything".
Stealthing gives you such an advantage its not even funny. By giving people points for stealthing doesn't show how active they are,,, it gives more people incentive to use a gimp skill.. You're going to turn every shard into the mockary that is siege perilous.. Everyone is gonna stealthers.. The point system was fine back in the day.. Stop making this so god damn complex.. it doesn't have to be that way..
*smiles*... you do know if I didn't like you so much I would so smack you right now! *arches brow* ... am I gimp? Anyway, you are right, the system is too complex. I would rather see team tournaments with bragging rights rather than points or cap the points or for me NO POINTS.
The main reason why the point system sucks so much now is because the points are so high.. dur... Why would you try and make a system that resembles that after 99% of the ppl who are active in them now absolutely hate it.
Hey, that was my question....
If you want to reward ppl for being active fine.. have a leader board for your scoring system but have your actual kill points separated..

God, what a sham.. The point system is PVP based.. not activity based... If you don't want people to sit on stealth archers.. FINE.. thats great.. I agree with that.. im sure most ppl do.. Make it so it takes additional mana to attack out of hiding or make it impossible to attack out of hiding unless its the special. Make them show themselves first.. or make stealthers damage reduced..

You want to get rid of ganking.. GREAT! fix the ridiculous sleep spell in Mysticism and make it harder to dismount people.. wtf.. you are jacking up a faction system because you guys don't know how to make a good pvp system.. Thats not how your supposed to do it.. From the way you talk about it, I sounds like you have no idea what the state of pvp is,,, which is HORRIBLE...
*smiles at Cardell* ... Breathe my friend. You showed the passion I feel. Fix what we have, don't trash it all and start over with all the new problems that will be revealed.
 

tink'r_toiz

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
I would have to disagree. Those who support the fighters are just as important as the fighters themselves; each has a role to play in controlling the towns, so it's fair that each should get a reward proportionate to the effort that they put in. After all, why should I sit and guard sigils or heal guildies if I get zilch in return from game mechanics, whilst they're killing everyone in sight and racking up points?
Uhm, because that is what support personnel do...
because it is what loyal faction mates do...
because it is what needs to be done to reach the objective... (control of towns)
because my faction appreciates what I do and they let me know it...
because allegiance to a cause and a group is more important than points or goodies....

Shall I continue?
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
The main reason why the point system sucks so much now is because the points are so high.. dur... Why would you try and make a system that resembles that after 99% of the ppl who are active in them now absolutely hate it.
Hey, that was my question....

Fix what we have, don't trash it all and start over with all the new problems that will be revealed.
Part 1, is resemblance really an issue? In your mind just remove some of the 0's and you will be at what you want it to be, I stated that I think the reason the points are so high looking is because in the code that is how they are actually presented, even in the current system or "old system" or how ever you want to call it, the points are actually really high in the code and the saved data but when it is called from the client it returns as "1".

Or they could just make the "new system" do the same as the old, and truncate the points so that they appear smaller....

Second, sometimes it is best to start over. When I first read about faction changes I was thrilled, when I first read about the proposed changes I was....distraught? I don't know, I can not really explain how I felt, but after much thought and consideration I think most of this is for the best (remind me again why we only have 3 factions? still can not find a point to this change). I guess I am just saying change is not a bad thing if everyone just adapts to it. Assuming we all do our part to help in the process of testing and making sure there are no exploits (we are good at finding them, not so good at telling though now are we?) and they make good on their promises and do their part to fix and tweak everything, We should be ok.
 
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