PvP Balancing Proposal 2018

[CovenantX]

How are they not facts? almost 100% of mages have parry, almost 100% of dexers don't bother solo playing... you seem to think Parry has nothing to do with it.

I've never seen denial this bad. and it doesn't matter if we play together or not, you play most of the people supporting your argument too Paith and deleted are guildies.
Learn Me (I'm not sure exactly) but I'd wager he's in FS! with you still. he played in your guild last time I checked though =] so now what?

 

[Cetric]

I don't care what you guys think is overpowered 1v1. Plenty of things are more overpowered 1v1 before parry

Poison is op 1v1

Disarm is op 1v1

Smoke bombs are op 1v1

^ games not balanced on 1v1

 

[drcossack]

Poison is op 1v1

Disarm is op 1v1

Smoke bombs are op 1v1

Poison by itself isn't OP 1v1. Poison + interrupting cure is what makes it OP

Disarm? Who the hell plays a character that can be disarmed anymore?

Smoke Bombs? Really? Let's be real here, the game's not balanced on 1v1 OR group pvp, which is why it's a broken mess.

 

[Cetric]

Disarm? Who the hell plays a character that can be disarmed anymore?

LOL

Oh my God lol

 

[Martell]

Poison by itself isn't OP 1v1. Poison + interrupting cure is what makes it OP

Disarm? Who the hell plays a character that can be disarmed anymore?

Smoke Bombs? Really? Let's be real here, the game's not balanced on 1v1 OR group pvp, which is why it's a broken mess.

LOL dude wtf are you even arguing for???

Poison and the passive benefit that comes with it is op 1v1.

The dexxers youre advocating for when complaining about parry mages are disarmable 1v1.

Smoke bombs have been broken since inception, lots of people have complained about them, and yeah, they never get touched

 

[drcossack]

LOL

Oh my God lol

...with Parry as prevalent as it is, there are virtually no dexers. You can't dispute that and you know it.

The dexxers youre advocating for when complaining about parry mages are disarmable 1v1.

And how many parry mages try to disarm? Without HCI it's pretty much not worth trying to do so on a parry mage.

 

[Cetric]

Damn near everyone has a weapon in their hand. There are extremely few parry anat/wrestle mages. Bushido parry is way more common. Do you even PvP? Based on all your argument i don't think you have a clue what you are arguing for.

 

[drcossack]

New Damn near everyone has a weapon in their hand. There are extremely few parry anat/wrestle mages. Bushido parry is way more common. Do you even PvP? Based on all your argument i don't think you have a clue what you are arguing for.

My ENTIRE argument has been that parry is the problem. The fact that it's so commonly used should be indicative of that. If you can't see why overcentralization is a problem, I don't know what to tell you - there's no real point in continuing this discussion.

 

[Cetric]

My ENTIRE argument has been that parry is the problem. The fact that it's so commonly used should be indicative of that. If you can't see why overcentralization is a problem, I don't know what to tell you - there's no real point in continuing this discussion.

You make 0 sense. You seem to think everyone plays wrestle parry mages and that's why you think parry is op. It's not even true, but even if it was wrestle parry is a boring template that no one would WANT to play.

Maybe you need to go out and pvo before you form your grand theories.

 

[drcossack]

You make 0 sense. You seem to think everyone plays wrestle parry mages and that's why you think parry is op. It's not even true, but even if it was wrestle parry is a boring template that no one would WANT to play.

Oh my god. You are putting words in my mouth. I said PARRY is the problem and that it's overcentralizing. Not wrestle/parry. I'm done with this. You're not worth talking to.

 

[Learn Me]

How are they not facts? almost 100% of mages have parry, almost 100% of dexers don't bother solo playing... you seem to think Parry has nothing to do with it.

I'd counter with how many mages do you see playing solo..?

 

[Learn Me]

Disarm? Who the hell plays a character that can be disarmed anymore?

Cossack, you literally said it right here. If everyone is bush/parry and nobody is anat/parry anymore, then everyone has a disarmable weapon.

 

[CovenantX]

I'd counter with how many mages do you see playing solo..?

Far more than you see dexers solo, but there isn't that many dexers left anymore, granted, there aren't that many players left in pvp anymore either. Clearly something's right...

 

[Happy Rage]

Lol

 

[PC Millenial]

From someone Who plays 3 characters in PvP who all have bush/parry, evade needs looking at. Several options have shown themselves.

Splint probly should not proc on any special.

Either nerf LP curability Or take away shatters. 1 or the other would be fine.

Make it so you cannot cycle between 4 unique guns/belts nonstop. Really dumb that i can keep someone heal blocked from 6 tiles away with near perfection.

If i soften targets up with a few shatters while everyome is grabbing bars and doing debuffs to draw out apple consumption, as soon as i hit an LP splint there is nothing anyone can do. It is just stupid.

Again, coming from someone Who uses splint/evade/poisoning with LP and stars/fukiyas and shatters on my primary char.

However the only reason I'm abusing these tactics is because EVERYONE is playing an evader and without this they can juat evade to live and run till evade timer is up, never commiting to offense until easy button is there. But if you nerf evade those strats need tonbe nerfed to to maintain some semblance of balance.

And Idk where some of these guys play but there is template diversity between mages and dexers, everyone just also has evade. Lots of myst mages, myst defers, necro mages, necro defers, straight bush dexers, few archers. It isnt just a bunch of anat parry mages at all, virtually none of those. They lack offensive capabilities needed it overcome evade.

 

[Effort]

The game is kind of **** right now for pvp, and that's okay, we've had these times in the past.

It's very easy to hit an extra skill on every char - free Parry = a free 30+% block chance or Ninja for no dismount kills

It's very easy to have 150 HP , 75 fire 75 energy and 50 ep...

So the only option in pvp right now is this low quality of group pvp, which those of us who have been around for all of the renditions should be able to clearly see this just isn't actually fun.

Solution? Not a clue.

You made legendaries easy to get, and you made antique jewels for pvpers last forever. So we are all geared out with stupid suits and too many skills to make it enjoyable.

Evasion? I don't think that's the issue but that's my opinion.

A 55 LMC mage with 20+ MR has no real negative effect from being non med but can get fire to 75 ... It's all consumables and Splintering.

You made a mess quality control team and hopefully you clean it up

 

[CovenantX]

I couldn't agree more.

 

[PC Millenial]

Its just power creep on both offense and defense, but the only way to fully leverage defensive creep is evade.

I disagree, i think the PvP is great. Anyone who isnt enjoying it likely dies a lot and has not figured out how to effectively play as a group.

Fights ive had over last 12 months are better than most of the fights ive had before it.

Just back down the power creep on both sides by nerfing a couple things and problem solved.

 

[Learn Me]

We field 4-6 on average each night. 1 or 2 dexxers and the rest are mages. Only one of those players doesn't have evasion and it's not the dexxer.

One guild we fight, Legion, usually goes 3-5 players and every single one of them has evasion.

The other guild, f8, fields 8-12 nightly and they field one or two necro dexxers (with evasion), 1-3 archers, and the rest are mages with... you guessed it, evasion. One of them will typically swap between an archer and a standard parry weave ninja refined mage for super survivability, but they have little offensive output.

So tell me, if nobody plays dexxers because parry is the issue and evasion isn't the issue...why do all but one player on the average night have evasion? It's the combination of refinements, evasion and pies that are the issue. Tough to blame parry as the culprit if nobody is holding a shield. If it was just parry, why would we be using parry if there are no dexxers..?

edit for reference: this is what you'll find at towns or gate on atlantic most every night. we'll check out GL once in awhile and only one of us has parry because the pvp quality is lower and we don't need refinements, etc.

 

[drcossack]

Tough to blame parry as the culprit if nobody is holding a shield. If it was just parry, why would we be using parry if there are no dexxers..?

Because Evasion doesn't work without Parry? And the Bushido skill allows you to Parry with a weapon instead of a shield?

 

[CovenantX]

Tough to blame parry as the culprit if nobody is holding a shield. If it was just parry, why would we be using parry if there are no dexxers..?

You don't need a shield to parry if you have bushido.... in fact, you can't parry with a shield if bushio is even 0.1 point higher than Parry.

you can't evade without Parry btw therefore Parry is the culprit, Furthermore, what was the most common template in pvp before parry broke focus spec? Wrestle/Anatomy - Parry-mage (with refinements & fish pies).

Evasion isn't a passive damage mitigation Parry itself is, it only lasts up to a maximum of 10 seconds (requires anatomy to reach 10s duration), and if you get disarmed it's nullified until the cooldown expires...
just the fact you can cast spells, offense, defense, or utility while maintaining the maximum 67.5% (typically 65.8% w/refined 75 fire) chance to dodge/block is ridiculous, in addition, you're now able to use confidence (healing on the move) and you don't sacrifice even the slightest bit of offense for any of it. So, the defense should be toned down if certain things are combined with it.

come to think of it, Cetrics original suggestion of Splintering being nerfed on Spell-channeling weapons... would actually be a near perfect solution to Evasion. cut the duration by 50% (so it's still useful) but timing would become more important, as the cooldown would remain the same. Again, the issue is when mages use it.

Evasion is one of the only things that actually works somewhat fairly when used between both mages & dexers...

One of them will typically swap between an archer and a standard parry weave ninja refined mage for super survivability, but they have little offensive output.

Sure the offense is weaker if you're comparing it to that of an evasion-nerve-mage, but, so is the defense using the same comparison... seems to me that's as close to the definition of Overpowered as you can get, is it not?

I do agree on fish-pies, any consumable with more power than it should have is bad A F for pvp...

Hey, when's the last time you saw someone get killed by an Evade-Dexer?

Lol

Hey buddy, that's what I thought when I noticed @Cetric removed the original #1 / 6 suggestions... stating exactly what the main problem was (now that it suits your guys argument It's obvious why =D)

Here's what his original suggestion was (now removed) - lol.....

These are things I would propose:

1. Splinter should not proc on special abilities if the weapon has spell channeling. This would make it so it can proc on base hits for a tank mage, but more dexer centric where it would proc for dexers in special abilities besides disarm. Dexers today really need splinter, and for tank mages it feels like too much. Alternatively make this based off of casting skill amount. I am happy with this if it doesn't get altered, but I thought with some players seeking nerfs to splinter, this would be better than an outright redo. Another case could be made for splintering effect to have an immunity period after proc, or the bleed effect not cause disruption

If weapon = Spell-channeling. Evasion duration reduced by 50%. typically for most "mage templates" the duration at 50% would be close to 4 seconds. (better yet, tie it to Magery, instead of "Spell-channeling")

I'd be for your original splintering suggestion, personally I think it's pretty f***ing stupid that mages can use splintering weapons at all, I wouldn't stop there though. I'd apply a 50% reduction in duration/effect on splintering to any template that has a ranged weapon skill as well. splintering weapon (after the initial duration adjustment - before it was a "common" property) has never been a problem, when melee uses it... literally 100% of the problems that occurred with splintering had to do with Ranged Weapons Or Spells.

The one problem I had with the suggestion though, was that any weapon with "Spell channeling" & Splintering Weapon, would become less useful even if you were to use it on a non-caster. hence why I suggested it should be tied to the skills your character has, as opposed to other properties spawning on the item itself.

 

[Learn Me]

Because Evasion doesn't work without Parry? And the Bushido skill allows you to Parry with a weapon instead of a shield?

So nobody plays dexxers because they're ineffective, but we all run parry so we don't get hit..?

By the way, the majority of players that are evasion casters not using a bokuto have only 60 parry. This means your evasion mystics, evasion necros, etc.

 

[Learn Me]

You don't need a shield to parry if you have bushido.... in fact, you can't parry with a shield if bushio is even 0.1 point higher than Parry.

you can't evade without Parry btw therefore Parry is the culprit, Furthermore, what was the most common template in pvp before parry broke focus spec? Wrestle/Anatomy - Parry-mage (with refinements & fish pies).

Evasion isn't a passive damage mitigation Parry itself is, it only lasts up to a maximum of 10 seconds (requires anatomy to reach 10s duration), and if you get disarmed it's nullified until the cooldown expires...
just the fact you can cast spells, offense, defense, or utility while maintaining the maximum 67.5% (typically 65.8% w/refined 75 fire) chance to dodge/block is ridiculous, in addition, you're now able to use confidence (healing on the move) and you don't sacrifice even the slightest bit of offense for any of it. So, the defense should be toned down if certain things are combined with it.

come to think of it, Cetrics original suggestion of Splintering being nerfed on Spell-channeling weapons... would actually be a near perfect solution to Evasion. cut the duration by 50% (so it's still useful) but timing would become more important, as the cooldown would remain the same. Again, the issue is when mages use it.

Evasion is one of the only things that actually works somewhat fairly when used between both mages & dexers...
.

Again, this is very simpe. People played anat parry mages because they had to. People didn't one day log in and go YOU KNOW WHAT SOUNDS FUN? Just having mage spells for offense and running around with parry. No, they got absolutely obliterated by dexxers and splinter disarm. You can attempt to argue that all you want, but any other view is just stupid. That's why you had a majority of people looking for changes to archery and splinter so we didn't all have to run non disarmable templates. You have one of the best dexxers in the game in @leet telling you splinter disarm was op and you don't believe him either.

60 parry is all you need for evasion to be effective. You keep saying nobody plays dexxers, but everyone has parry. Guess why they have parry? Evasion. In reference to cool downs being just fine, on a mage without anat I can cast evasion and it'll last for what, 8 seconds? That means I have to play slightly less aggressively for 12 whole seconds before I can again evade 60% of spells. I continually will dump a target in the middle of 5 people dumping me. Explode, pop evade, cast corpse. Rarely get below half life because what does get through does laughable damage with refinements and I'm evading 60% of spells.

You two keep saying you don't sacrifice offense for parry and bushido. 200-240 skill points people invest in two skills that don't do damage is sacrificing offensive skill. I fact you two keep pointing out with 100 skill points you can get alchemy and do more damage. So by your own admission, that's sacrificing offense. Can't hold a bow for damage across the screen, sacrifice offense.

Tying splintering on sc weps into evasion is the biggest reach I've seen on here. Few people have splinter bokutos and that's the only weapon evasion mages use. The rest use balakai's staff.

 

[Learn Me]

Go ahead and drastically reduce parry for mages. Have mages get hit more than 50/50 with HLD, have them get hit with 30-60% splinter going off and dexxers swinging nearly every weapon at 1.25 or yumi's landing 75 damage double shots more often, while melee dexxers continue to have bush/parry for evasion and refinements. That way when a mage can get something above a third level spell off every 10 seconds it can do a whole 18 damage. Makes ZERO sense.

 

[Learn Me]

This is what you're advocating. Sorry Aeyko!
One fight against arguably the best solo mage with and without parry. But nah, max ssi and splinter isn't an issue and this dexxer should probably hit more often right?

 

[Cetric]

Wow parry looks overpowered there *eye roll*

 

[Learn Me]

By the way, if by chance this guy decided to stick on one tile for 10 seconds to let aeyko full dump him, he could evade 60% of what Aeyko casts, what spells he did get hit with would do next to no damage because of refinements, then he has heal pots, 4 second bandages and confidence. I'd be willing to bet he's either going to run, which the mage could do nothing about, or he could probably disrupt enough spells for the 10 seconds it takes to reset his evasion cooldown.

Took a lot of skill and strategy to run around and armor ignore splint over and over and over and over until it worked.

 

[drcossack]

Wow parry looks overpowered there *eye roll*

So you're basing that on ONE video where the RNG is HEAVILY in favor of the dexer? Really? Do you have any idea how flawed that "logic" is?

 

[Learn Me]

So you're basing that on ONE video where the RNG is HEAVILY in favor of the dexer? Really? Do you have any idea how flawed that "logic" is?

I can post more. Point is I have evidence to support every claim I make. If parry is so OP, then why can the best 1v1 mage die to a dexxer that does nothing but AI? If a dexxer can hit that much because RNG goes his favor, why should his chances of that go up even more? This guy literally hits one special over and over and over and over until rng rolls in his favor. That's what a dexxer does. On the other hand, the mage has to maneuver, bait, debuff, work around apple, bandage, and heal pot timers and hope he can bust through the guys evade. Venture to guess how much damage his lightning does which takes longer to cast than it does for that guy to swing for 45 damage? His lightning on a refined elf will do 11 damage.

But please, all I do is post evidence from the game I currently play and can post more if you'd like. This was just the quickest demonstration. Meanwhile, you guys can continue to theorize on a game you don't participate in the pvp on. What more can I do besides state my claims, present details why, and even back it up with hard gameplay evidence that you can see first hand?

 

[Learn Me]

Here's another one from the same guy. By the way, this guy plays from Germany as a one tile dexxer. Happy Hobo, shown twice, is a bush parry mage. Fai is bush parry. Walmart Shopper is bush parry with the ALCHEMY you guys have brought up as such a useful offensive and defensive skill. Xavier is a parry mage. Danny the Kid, the necro in the middle, is Boadi and one of the best casters left. How many times do you think he missed the guy without parry? Looks like once.

Here I am backing up my claims with more hard evidence while you guys say parry is so OP dexxers have no chance at competing. Somehow this guy does it by literally hitting one button and chaining AI. Up his RNG please.

 

[transcendent]

Here's another one from the same guy. By the way, this guy plays from Germany as a one tile dexxer. Happy Hobo, shown twice, is a bush parry mage. Fai is bush parry. Walmart Shopper is bush parry with the ALCHEMY you guys have brought up as such a useful offensive and defensive skill. Xavier is a parry mage. Danny the Kid, the necro in the middle, is Boadi and one of the best casters left. How many times do you think he missed the guy without parry? Looks like once.

Here I am backing up my claims with more hard evidence while you guys say parry is so OP dexxers have no chance at competing. Somehow this guy does it by literally hitting one button and chaining AI. Up his RNG please.

Interesting video. Kinda nice seeing old school warrior templates making a comeback in pvp

 

[drcossack]

Here I am backing up my claims with more hard evidence while you guys say parry is so OP dexxers have no chance at competing

You are cherry-picking examples where the parry mage looks bad. Feel free to post some where the parry mage doesn't get hit for several swings in a row.

 

[Learn Me]

You are cherry-picking examples where the parry mage looks bad. Feel free to post some where the parry mage doesn't get hit for several swings in a row.

Did you really just ask me to go out of my way to try and prove your argument? Feel free to post your own evidence for yourself.

These are videos of one guy HITTING ONE SPECIAL over and over and over. The two mages in the videos without parry could not get a spell off. The rest of the mages were FULL bush parry. You two have been complaining about parry since before the combat change patch. These guys have an even higher parry chance and rng can still roll so that a player LITERALLY can do nothing about it. Covenants sig says take rng out, make it skill based again. Explain how skillful hitting one special over and over against a full bush parry toon is skillful?

You want to increase a players ability to toggle one special over and over to kill anyone. I've explained this to you very simply several times and I can do it again. Even if he misses 1/2 his swings, the mage is doing 18 damage explosions and 11 damage lightnings to the dexxer. Somehow he has to bust the dexxers evade, do enough damage in the 10 second evasion cool down, keep him debuffed through apples, outdamage confidence with 4 second bandages and heal pots, while doing 18 damage explosions.

I've laid out the numbers. I've explained ACTUAL nightly game experience that you have admitted you do not have because you two do not pvp. I have shown several examples of actual gameplay. I have explained what happens if you lower parry chances and why evasion/pies/refinements are the meta. I have explained why you have to look through the spectrum of group pvp and not individual. Covenant has stated no dexxers solo pvp and few mages do, yet still holds that an MMO should be catered around that.

Now you're asking me to provide evidence against my case to support yours? That should say enough.

 

[Cetric]

jeez. learn me mic drop.

 

[CovenantX]

Covenants sig says take rng out, make it skill based again. Explain how skillful hitting one special over and over against a full bush parry toon is skillful?

My signature explicitly references Mage pvp. it has absolutely nothing to do with dexers. Dexers are underpowered as hell against most mage templates. it's fairly obvious when mages pick up parry because Archers & Throwers were finally able to reach cap speed with weapons that actually do a fair amount of damage (based on the select few of you guys' opinions) when they actually hit and most the dexers disappear shortly there after? It must be a pure coincidence right?

you found one guy spamming armor ignore against a bunch of people that wouldn't beat a dexer using auto-attacks...
I mean, I could go record a video of me killing trammies on a bard spamming mind-blast without eval (so curse is useless) and it would be just as relevant to this discussion as the videos you posted.

We're talking about pvp today. you're showing a video that is edited to show only the last few seconds before the guy gets a kill.... Newsflash, most UO pvp videos only show you the good stuff and by that I mean favorable to the guy recording it.

How many fights did the guy have that ended with him running away until RNG was finally in his favor? How many deaths did the guy have that were obviously edited out? all it really shows is that RNG can be favorable to dexers at times. Edit: and mages can play like poop. I guess that's what happens when you get so used to having parry? when the RNG isn't going your way you die to things you shouldn't die to.

jeez. learn me mic drop.

Yea, that's a mic-drop alright.

 

[drcossack]

I have explained why you have to look through the spectrum of group pvp and not individual.

And I've explained the opposite. Do I need to repeat it for you? Since I do: Things that WORK IN GROUPS won't necessarily work in a 1v1 setting. The ONLY thing the pvp'ers agreed on in the old Discussing Balance thread was that. Which I'd guess they would STILL agree on.

Sure, I know 1v1's are a thing of the past in UO...but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be the standard for pvp balance. Dismount is utterly worthless 1v1, but it's AMAZING for a group. Would you say that dismount isn't balanced?

Refinements, fish pies, etc, are problems. We'll all agree on that. But you can use refinements and fish pies in a 1v1 as well.

Now you're asking me to provide evidence against my case to support yours?

Yes, because you are heavily biased. I could cherry-pick examples of dexers whiffing over and over, and I could do so just as easily as you found examples where they kept hitting. In either case, a couple videos don't really mean anything.

When I was pvp'ing at Yew Gate on Atl before the combat changes, I saw more mages than I did dexers. The dexers I'd see? Among others, there was Mike D, Trevor, de leet ed, I'm pretty sure I saw Bane & Genesis on their Deathstrikers (although I may be mis-remembering the shard, and I fought them on LS. Either way.) nwa/F8/whatever they call themselves now had a lot of Archers - because of their lack of skill, they went with an easy mode pvp template. Would you like to know the reason why dexers weren't really seen before AND after the pvp publish? Because of Parry. It was a defensive skill that gave no real penalties to offense before the Focus Spec change - a dexer would be hard-pressed to kill a 40% SDI Scribe Mage. Now? It's still an unrivaled defensive skill - the only thing that has changed with it is the templates players use. In this case, Bushido has been added to templates, allowing players greater defense and recovery (on top of what they already had.)

If Parry wasn't so good, it wouldn't be so widely used. You know this...but you're incapable of admitting it.

 

[PC Millenial]

@drcossack can you help me understand? I feel like we are getting lost in semantics.

It appears as if we're aligned on most of the proposals. Can you confirm for me, do you agree evade should be nerfed?

I understand we are in disagreement on whether parry in general should be nerfed (I side with learn/cetric that parry inherently is fine).

If yes to my question, it seems there is no opposition to evade adjustments. Specifically what those adjustments should be is a separate discussion. If helpful, I can find some video of someone evading a 7 person mage sync and walking away at 70% hit points.

 

[TB Cookie [W]]

I'm liking some of the posts here now, some more thoughtful ones.

For the record, I used to play parry mage a couple of years ago, whilst it was ok, it wasn't fun, I lacked mana to do anything, I also lacked damage output.

I only know a couple of people who play a parry mage, out of my entire team of say 20 active max (in a single fight).

I play a pure 6xSpellweaver now, with a pvp hpi/damage eater/regen suit, or a pvm mana sdi suit.
I actually prefer the pvm sdi/mana suit to play in, it gives me so much more variety and casting ability.
I get to cast reapers, meteor swarm, chain spam thunderstorm etc. I like the magic shields also.
I do have about 10 healers, and many many times, I swear all 10 are healing me when dexxers get hold of me, but I survive team stuff, I stay at the back and support like crazy.
I cannot solo, dexxers are impossible to play against, mages no problems.

Evade - I get what you guys are saying about it, it doesn't bother me too much (they invest a lot of points in this), neither does parry (I usually feel sorry for parry mages, how limited they are), neither does splintering in itself.

I do believe LP+Splintering+Dismount, or Deathstrike and many other specials at the same time is too much.
For me, it always seems to be dismount gank that bugs me, it is such a poor way to go, no dignity, and in the style of fights that I play - say 10+ v 10+, it is a bit of an I win button, and negates a lot of skill.
I do potentially think the 1 tile hit is too limited for a dexxer - it could maybe be 2 tiles...?
(But only if some of the specials are toned down a bit).

 

[drcossack]

@drcossack can you help me understand? I feel like we are getting lost in semantics.

It appears as if we're aligned on most of the proposals. Can you confirm for me, do you agree evade should be nerfed?

I understand we are in disagreement on whether parry in general should be nerfed (I side with learn/cetric that parry inherently is fine).

If yes to my question, it seems there is no opposition to evade adjustments. Specifically what those adjustments should be is a separate discussion. If helpful, I can find some video of someone evading a 7 person mage sync and walking away at 70% hit points.

Evade nerf: No, I think Evade's fine as is. Sure, it's powerful, but it still has plenty of downtime where the user can take a lot of damage (which, of course, varies on how easily they can mitigate damage through consumables and refinements.) But the common thread in the templates before and after the pvp patch, at least where mages were concerned, was Parry. If something is so widespread that 99% of a specific class uses it, it's because it's overpowered, and needs to be looked at. That does not, however, mean that other things can't be a problem. Where Wrestle/Anat Parry mages were the most used Yew Gate template before the pvp changes, Bushido/Parry took its place. Even more defensive capability became possible. Sure, the focus spec change did reduce a mage's firepower, but not enough for it to matter - you lose 2 points of damage at most on Flamestrike. On its own, that (negligible) damage reduction isn't a big deal - the problem lies in refinements and fish pies, allowing players to give themselves a greater reduction in damage.

However, if you nerf Parry, what will happen? I'm inclined to agree with Learn Me on that, but the angle we're approaching the issue from is the problem. For him, group fights at Yew Gate are more common. A Parry nerf will allow dexers to mow mages down with ease, but they can (with a lot of RNG on their side) do that to mages now, even 1v1. Basing your argument on RNG (like Learn does with the above videos) doesn't mean anything - we all know how streaky it can be.

 

[PC Millenial]

Idk what youre trying to accomplish. Are you posting just to read your own text? I give up.

 

[Learn Me]

Evade nerf: No, I think Evade's fine as is. Sure, it's powerful, but it still has plenty of downtime where the user can take a lot of damage (which, of course, varies on how easily they can mitigate damage through consumables and refinements.)

However, if you nerf Parry, what will happen? I'm inclined to agree with Learn Me on that, but the angle we're approaching the issue from is the problem. For him, group fights at Yew Gate are more common. A Parry nerf will allow dexers to mow mages down with ease, but they can (with a lot of RNG on their side) do that to mages now, even 1v1. Basing your argument on RNG (like Learn does with the above videos) doesn't mean anything - we all know how streaky it can be.

First point, downtime on evasion is a whopping 12 seconds if they don't have anatomy, 10 seconds (or less? not sure) if they have anatomy. So assuming they're already on apple timer, you have 12 full seconds to work through confidence, mage or 4sec bandie heals, and heal pots before they can evade again.

Second point, dexxers are rng. That's what you have to base it on. Explain to me how a dexxers success isn't based on whether or not they hit.

 

[Learn Me]

My signature explicitly references Mage pvp. it has absolutely nothing to do with dexers. Dexers are underpowered as hell against most mage templates. it's fairly obvious when mages pick up parry because Archers & Throwers were finally able to reach cap speed with weapons that actually do a fair amount of damage (based on the select few of you guys' opinions) when they actually hit and most the dexers disappear shortly there after? It must be a pure coincidence right?

you found one guy spamming armor ignore against a bunch of people that wouldn't beat a dexer using auto-attacks...
I mean, I could go record a video of me killing trammies on a bard spamming mind-blast without eval (so curse is useless) and it would be just as relevant to this discussion as the videos you posted.

We're talking about pvp today. you're showing a video that is edited to show only the last few seconds before the guy gets a kill.... Newsflash, most UO pvp videos only show you the good stuff and by that I mean favorable to the guy recording it.

How many fights did the guy have that ended with him running away until RNG was finally in his favor? How many deaths did the guy have that were obviously edited out? all it really shows is that RNG can be favorable to dexers at times. Edit: and mages can play like poop. I guess that's what happens when you get so used to having parry? when the RNG isn't going your way you die to things you shouldn't die to.



Yea, that's a mic-drop alright.

There were no mages in those videos? I should have explained further, forgive me. Every single person he fought in those videos were mages. Makes it mage pvp.

I showed you a guy hitting one single special over and over against FULL BUSH PARRY mages. If parry itself is so OP against dexxers and these guys have even stronger defenses against dexxers, how did this guy rail them? I don't give two ****s how many times he had to run off because he missed in between. 99% of mages and dexxers just run away when you get them half life so what exactly is your point?

You question the quality of the players he fought? I explained who each one was and what their template was. Aeyko, who has won PLATS in 1v1 tournaments against mages and dexxers. Boadi who is considered top 5 casters in the last several years and has won mage tournaments on Atl. Why not argue the quality of the actual dexxer killing these players? The one who is hitting one button over and over? Seems like he's really skilled right?

You argue people picked up archery and throwing and dexxers disappeared. Elaborate for me? Is this whole argument based around one tile dexxers or did you just say everyone played a range dexxer template?

So please, in this thread you've said you're better than paith and you've killed all these people, now you discount every piece of actual gameplay evidence given to you because they aren't quality pvpers. I'm wondering exactly who you'd like to see killed before you accept it as viable? I've given you a dexxer who hits one button railing through full bush parry mages, but they don't count. You just talk in circles over and over man, honestly.

Few people 1v1, but we should base uo around 1v1. Dexxers can't kill people because parry is OP, nah those mages he killed weren't good don't count. Nobody plays dexxers anymore, but parry is the issue in pvp not evading 200 points of damage. A dexxers success is based on rng, but he only killed those guys because rng so doesn't count.

 

[Learn Me]

And I've explained the opposite. Do I need to repeat it for you? Since I do: Things that WORK IN GROUPS won't necessarily work in a 1v1 setting. The ONLY thing the pvp'ers agreed on in the old Discussing Balance thread was that. Which I'd guess they would STILL agree on.

Sure, I know 1v1's are a thing of the past in UO...but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be the standard for pvp balance. Dismount is utterly worthless 1v1, but it's AMAZING for a group. Would you say that dismount isn't balanced?

Refinements, fish pies, etc, are problems. We'll all agree on that. But you can use refinements and fish pies in a 1v1 as well.



Yes, because you are heavily biased. I could cherry-pick examples of dexers whiffing over and over, and I could do so just as easily as you found examples where they kept hitting. In either case, a couple videos don't really mean anything.

When I was pvp'ing at Yew Gate on Atl before the combat changes, I saw more mages than I did dexers. The dexers I'd see? Among others, there was Mike D, Trevor, de leet ed, I'm pretty sure I saw Bane & Genesis on their Deathstrikers (although I may be mis-remembering the shard, and I fought them on LS. Either way.) nwa/F8/whatever they call themselves now had a lot of Archers - because of their lack of skill, they went with an easy mode pvp template. Would you like to know the reason why dexers weren't really seen before AND after the pvp publish? Because of Parry. It was a defensive skill that gave no real penalties to offense before the Focus Spec change - a dexer would be hard-pressed to kill a 40% SDI Scribe Mage. Now? It's still an unrivaled defensive skill - the only thing that has changed with it is the templates players use. In this case, Bushido has been added to templates, allowing players greater defense and recovery (on top of what they already had.)

If Parry wasn't so good, it wouldn't be so widely used. You know this...but you're incapable of admitting it.

I'm sorry, I'm biased for showing examples supporting my claims? I guess you could say that. Much like a lawyer is biased to present evidence in support of their client. Weird argument to make.

You just admitted archers (dexxers) are an easy mode template. Thanks. I fully understand why there aren't as many of them anymore. I get an archer is going to have a hard time killing anyone with parry. Probably going to have an awful hard time killing a parry one tiler as well, correct? Probably going to have a hard time killing anyone with 4/6 chiv, correct? Maybe everything needs a revamp so that one tile dexxers and archers can kill these people as well? /sarcasm.

And dismount is not worthless 1v1. Cet and I do it all the time on our bok mages. If they don't have another horse in their pack then it's a huge advantage. A straight evasion dexxer can no dachi you and frenzied whirlwind your horse to death in 2 hits. Now, even if you're bush parry, you suddenly have a dexxer on mount with 20 splint 50hit spell 50hld AI weapons disarming you and there's not a thing you can do about it.


and lol... you just said it in this post. "if parry wasn't so good, it wouldn't be so widely used." I hope you get where I'm about to go with this. If evasion wasn't so good, it wouldn't be so widely used. If splinter wasn't so good, it wouldn't be so widely used. Too easy.

 

[Learn Me]

You guys want to idealize pvp to be this situation where everyone breaks off into 1v1's and hops off mount, don't use consumables because it doesn't take skill, put everyone on 50/50 ground, nobody leaves screen and we all die honorably. Doesn't work like that. If that dexxer missed and ran away 10 times over, what is the parry mage going to do about it? Not a damn thing. If the mage wants to run, oh he can't because he just got splintered three times in a row.

You up their chances to hit, you up their chances they hit 10 times in a row and splinters going off left and right. Pretty simple concept to follow.

 

[CovenantX]

There were no mages in those videos? I should have explained further, forgive me. Every single person he fought in those videos were mages. Makes it mage pvp.

You argue people picked up archery and throwing and dexxers disappeared. Elaborate for me? Is this whole argument based around one tile dexxers or did you just say everyone played a range dexxer template?


Few people 1v1, but we should base uo around 1v1. Dexxers can't kill people because parry is OP, nah those mages he killed weren't good don't count. Nobody plays dexxers anymore, but parry is the issue in pvp not evading 200 points of damage. A dexxers success is based on rng, but he only killed those guys because rng so doesn't count.

#1 - in context, it was about Your refrence to my signature. My signature is about Mage vs Mage pvp. nothing to do with dexers.... where the hell did you see, me or anyone say there were no mages in that video?

#2 - People picked up Parry because of Archery & Throwing (according to you and a few others) and it caused Dexers to disappear once everyone decided to add parry to their mage-templates. (pretty much the opposite of what you're making it sound like Again....)

#3 - Few people 1v1 because UO isn't balanced fairly around one vs one unless you're a mage. Oh hey, clearly some of those mages weren't good in that example. one guy chugged a healig potion and did nothing else to heal himself. hoping splintering's slow would end, so he could move faster... that's a great fight there! (the only full fight in the video) lol

a dexers success is based on RNG, who said otherwise? a mages success is based on timing more than anything else, rng affects how much of an offense they have against "RNG dependant dexers".

You guys want to idealize pvp to be this situation where everyone breaks off into 1v1's and hops off mount, don't use consumables because it doesn't take skill, put everyone on 50/50 ground, nobody leaves screen and we all die honorably. Doesn't work like that. If that dexxer missed and ran away 10 times over, what is the parry mage going to do about it? Not a damn thing. If the mage wants to run, oh he can't because he just got splintered three times in a row.

You up their chances to hit, you up their chances they hit 10 times in a row and splinters going off left and right. Pretty simple concept to follow.

Who's asking for their hit chance to be increased? a melee-dexer can compete much more fairly with a mage that doesn't have parry, Archers & Throwers vs a non parry-mage a bit more so.

Parry chance needs to be toned down for Mages. you're over-exaggerating our point to make your argument hold any water.

Evasion, personally I don't think evade is that big a deal. at maximum there's a 50% up-time and most templates don't have the required skill points invested to reach the 10s duration.
Besides, you can tell when one uses evasion, like I said before, If you're dumb enough to dump full combos on someone that JUST used evasion the evader deserves to survive it. regardless how many people are sync-dumping.

 

[CovenantX]

and lol... you just said it in this post. "if parry wasn't so good, it wouldn't be so widely used." I hope you get where I'm about to go with this. If evasion wasn't so good, it wouldn't be so widely used. If splinter wasn't so good, it wouldn't be so widely used. Too easy.

and evasion is used to block spells?

Hey, if dexers are soo OP, why aren't people refining their suits for DCI?

 

[TB Cookie [W]]

and evasion is used to block spells?

Hey, if dexers are soo OP, why aren't people refining their suits for DCI?

Because mages cannot refine their suits... ?
(If they want a medable suit).

 

[CovenantX]

Because mages cannot refine their suits... ?
(If they want a medable suit).

Are you serious, When's the last time you played UO?

What mage has meditation anymore? 55% LMC + 20-30 MR... you don't need much mana regen to out-heal a dexer if you have Parry... you don't get hit often enough to require that kind of regen.

 

[TB Cookie [W]]

Are you serious, When's the last time you played UO?

What mage has meditation anymore? 55% LMC + 20-30 MR... you don't need much mana regen to out-heal a dexer if you have Parry... you don't get hit often enough to require that kind of regen.

I'm a pure mage, I still have meditation...
(Or I'm SW if I swap Scribe off).
I find 55% LMC and 30 MR is not enough mana regeneration for me, I'm a mage who likes to actually cast spells, I play in long and large-scale fights.

I maybe old-school, but so are you and the other guy, and quite frankly, Learnme and PC Millenial are saying it how I see it every night.

You seem to be the one out of touch with current day PvP with your views on Dexxers.

I may play an out of date character, but I play it well, and have fun. I see the same stuff as them.

Have you completed Felucca Khaldun Boss Champ yet with your guild?
(Since yesterdays full content drop with powerscrolls).
I have.

 

[Learn Me]

#1 - in context, it was about Your refrence to my signature. My signature is about Mage vs Mage pvp. nothing to do with dexers.... where the hell did you see, me or anyone say there were no mages in that video?

#2 - People picked up Parry because of Archery & Throwing (according to you and a few others) and it caused Dexers to disappear once everyone decided to add parry to their mage-templates. (pretty much the opposite of what you're making it sound like Again....)

#3 - Few people 1v1 because UO isn't balanced fairly around one vs one unless you're a mage. Oh hey, clearly some of those mages weren't good in that example. one guy chugged a healig potion and did nothing else to heal himself. hoping splintering's slow would end, so he could move faster... that's a great fight there! (the only full fight in the video) lol

a dexers success is based on RNG, who said otherwise? a mages success is based on timing more than anything else, rng affects how much of an offense they have against "RNG dependant dexers".



Who's asking for their hit chance to be increased? a melee-dexer can compete much more fairly with a mage that doesn't have parry, Archers & Throwers vs a non parry-mage a bit more so.

Parry chance needs to be toned down for Mages. you're over-exaggerating our point to make your argument hold any water.

Evasion, personally I don't think evade is that big a deal. at maximum there's a 50% up-time and most templates don't have the required skill points invested to reach the 10s duration.
Besides, you can tell when one uses evasion, like I said before, If you're dumb enough to dump full combos on someone that JUST used evasion the evader deserves to survive it. regardless how many people are sync-dumping.

1. It says eliminate chance and rng. Guess what a dexxer is based around? Chance and rng. You're right though, you just said there were no quality players in the video. No quality players, just players that have won plats off 1v1 tournaments.

2. Duh. You omit the fact people were forced to play parry mages or they would get disarm splintered and hit by 40 damage moving shots at 1.25. There was no choice.

3. People don't 1v1 because the game is awful for it. Why the hell would I want to mage v mage when everyone has 150hp, max eaters, max hpr with refinements and pies? 18 damage explosions and 11 damage lightnings. I don't care who plays a dexxer. I play a mage 90% of the time I'm on uo and always have and have zero desire to fight another mage 1v1 because my spells do nothing. Dexxers not being the best option to 1v1 has nothing to do with the state of UO pvp. Period. Not once have you touched on the fact that mage v mage is total **** because of damage like that or have you recognized how a mage is supposed to kill a dexxer with a damage output like that. <-------------touch on this please.

Who is asking for a hit chance increase? Is this a real question? You understand that dropping someones defense chance via lesser parry chance inherently means you're increasing a dexxers chance to hit right? You can't lessens someone defense without them getting hit more.

I realize you don't group pvp so you don't understand how stupid evasion is. People will not engage while their evasion is on cooldown. So guess when you can dump them? Uhhhhhh when they can evade. Sweet my flamestrike didn't get evaded and it did 23 whole damage. And in the 1v1 aspect you only care about, you think another mage won't keep you from doing substantial enough damage for 12 seconds while they have apples, confidence, mage heals, possibly weapon hits and your lightnings do 11 damage? Give me a break.

I was in the LS guild with you when some of the players began to dabble in atl pvp. 95% of the time nobody wanted anything to do with it because they couldn't play uo the way they wanted without pots, parry, and actually putting in some type of effort. Plain and simple.