I still feel 3 good mage vs 3 good dexxers wins everything tho. Idk.
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Before the mystic parry mages, evasion nerve mages or even the wrestle parry mages. UO was Archery Online. They increased the power of weapons/armor/jewls insanely. Now as a nox swords archer you literally are garbage and pray the RNG has your back. I hate being forced to ha e parry due to without it you’re a pin cushion or dismantled by dexxers. Splinter is where that real problem comes in. It comes on weapons that can be powdered and repair infinitely. It doesn’t cost mana, it doesn’t involve skill points needed. It’s just an innate property you have to have to be competitive. Something has to be done they can’t just make armor better anymore. It’s capped out. It already looks like a test center free shard. Parry should be less effective if combined with magic schools. Evasion shouldn’t work on Soell channeling weapons. Increase the Hit Point pool to accommodate the huge increase of dexxer strength. Rebalance resist, hci-dci formulas. 50/50 is a weird outcome. Parry/hci/dci formula shouldn’t be separate checks. Bring back SDI mages. The should hit ALOT harder then 3-5hp for being as susceptible as they are to dexxers. 1v1 a non parry mage and a dexxer of equal skill. The mage would never win. That’s not good...sdi mages were never the problem. Parry SDI mages were. The devs are lazy. So they nerfed pure mages so then everyone went hybrid. Which is worse tbh.
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Copy aND pasted texts/ suggestions from Lox:
"120 Parry can block between 0% & 35% of physical damage done to you. RNG based obviously.
So like max block (35%) would make a 35 point AI only do 22 damage.
Basically turn it into weapon damage mitigation.
And u wanna get real crazy, make bushido/parry go to like 50% max. So an RNG of 0% to 50%. So a 35 point AI would only do 17 damage at best RNG roll. Seems like a good trade off of 240 skill points to me.
Anyone should get blown up 3v1 lol. Technically.
You still have DCI and Lower Defense and ****. The least anyone should be allowed to hit someone else at even skills IMO should be like 35-40%. Max. And that would be like a wrestle parry mage. I would also increase the dex needed. Base that off 120 REAL dex. And/or I would also make specials eligible to hit maybe 25% overcapped more but use double the mana. Like an AI / disarm / etc would cost 50 mana (flat mana, no LMC bonus allowed) with the added overcapped. Make it a cool down say 30 seconds or something.
A group of 3 good mages should never die to 3 dexxers. I'm sorry. Idc if it's Broli, De Leet Ed, and Wildfire all in their primes, 3 mages should be able to sync dump and pick off dexxers with relative ease. Put Necro, Me, and insert another good mage, we wouldn't lose. Between walling/fielding/syncing/ability to crossheal it should be a no contest.
A mage at his peak VS a dexxer at their peak should be a no contest."
"120 Parry can block between 0% & 35% of physical damage done to you. RNG based obviously.
So like max block (35%) would make a 35 point AI only do 22 damage.
Basically turn it into weapon damage mitigation.
And u wanna get real crazy, make bushido/parry go to like 50% max. So an RNG of 0% to 50%. So a 35 point AI would only do 17 damage at best RNG roll. Seems like a good trade off of 240 skill points to me.
Anyone should get blown up 3v1 lol. Technically.
You still have DCI and Lower Defense and ****. The least anyone should be allowed to hit someone else at even skills IMO should be like 35-40%. Max. And that would be like a wrestle parry mage. I would also increase the dex needed. Base that off 120 REAL dex. And/or I would also make specials eligible to hit maybe 25% overcapped more but use double the mana. Like an AI / disarm / etc would cost 50 mana (flat mana, no LMC bonus allowed) with the added overcapped. Make it a cool down say 30 seconds or something.
A group of 3 good mages should never die to 3 dexxers. I'm sorry. Idc if it's Broli, De Leet Ed, and Wildfire all in their primes, 3 mages should be able to sync dump and pick off dexxers with relative ease. Put Necro, Me, and insert another good mage, we wouldn't lose. Between walling/fielding/syncing/ability to crossheal it should be a no contest.
A mage at his peak VS a dexxer at their peak should be a no contest."
You acknowledge the problem, and state evidence that supports the argument against you in the same post.
Group vs group balance = the problem.
3 dexers vs a "No Parry Dude" gets Obliterated.
What happens when 3 dexers go against a "Parry dude"? The parry dude will win unless he's absolute s**t at pvp.
No, he just has a better chance. Sacrificed 100+ skill to improve that chance. I mean 3 parry mages vs 3 dexers parry mages should win. But then 3 parry mages vs 3 non parry mages the none should win. And 3 non parry mages vs 3 dexers the dexers should win. Sounds right to me.
Sounds like @Cetric enjoys his easy-mode mages right now and doesn't want a challenge. Cast almost uninterrupted versus any other template then the one he is currently playing. This all sounds like weak player pvp which is why it is suffering badly and no one wants to play anymore. I logged in last night on my mystic mage with no parry(just mage wep) and fought a splinter dp dser and won with relative ease. That's how a real mage pvps, not evade while you can dump all day for free. Like Caz said its incredibly sad out there.
3 dexers vs 3 non-parry mages? If the mages lose, they suck at UO.
a mage should NEVER lose to a dexer one vs one, parry isn't needed.
Maybe you dont have experience with fighting good dexers in the field.
The antique property on jewels kills alot of pvp. Either get rid of the property altogether or make them cursed. As it stands if you dont use them your at a disadvantage as certain builds aren't possible.If your using them it means one of 3 things. You have to use the Ec which many people detest, your using 3rd party programs, or your avoiding objective based fighting because you dont want to beat up your jewels. In today's uo very few people will fight without them,. They promote both shady pvp and a lack of pvp. Just my 2 cents
A good dexer huh? feel free to Pm me a list of people you think are "good" dexers.
I'd be surprised if there are any people on that list I haven't killed with both mage & dexer templates, none of which have parry.
Let's start with Genesis, leet, chad and trevor. Find 3 non parry mages and go fight them on dexer. It won't take long lol
Im always in my prime
……………………...
Short list.
Leet & Trevor, I don't think I have ever even had a one vs one fight with either of them... unless it would have been some characters that I don't know.
I'm not exactly sure who "Chad" is, so I dunno for sure.
But you know what? it wouldn't matter anyway. because if Dexers were useful in pvp (other than dismount), there would be much a closer to 50/50 dexer vs mage ratio.... looks more like 80/20 (20 being generous) mages vs dexers.
I'm not saying it's impossible for a dexer to beat a mage, I'm saying that Non-Parry-mages consistently beat dexers far more often than dexers beat non-parry-mages in many situations.
You factor running, I don't... why? Running isn't something exclusive to dexers, in fact if people didn't run Dexers would have a better chance in one vs one pvp.
If you put a dexer up against a parry-mage... the parry-mage has to be pretty bad & unlucky to lose one vs one, even 1/5 losses would be unlikely.
Even if I had, I wouldn't expect you to admit it. Though it's not like it matters either way, it's not about me vs whomever that I'm talking about, It's the difference between Magery & Weapon as primary (or only source of) offense.
Dexers will stay near obsolete in pvp, until Parry + Magery is nerfed. Nerfing offense doesn't matter, which is what they did by adding Parry to Focus-break list... but since they reduced the Focus spec SDI by 5% and increased non-focus SDI cap by 5% (from 30/15% to 25/20%) it wasn't enough to make a difference with Parry-mages, all it did was bring necromancy, mysticism & spellweaving more into play (which is good), except most of those are going to run with Parry now too, Dexers are right where they were, with the exception of Archers & Throwers with the moving-shot & AI nerfs were tones down a slight bit. How many mages dropped parry like they said they would if archery got nerfed? absolutely none, as a matter of fact, more mages picked parry up (lol). shocker, I know. it couldn't be more obvious before the changes were made, now it has been verified.
Without Dismount, dexers are completely useless in pvp.
Mages (any variation) could have their spellbook cut in half down to 32 spells and still be better than dexers. It shouldn't be hard to reach a better balance than we have, and the only thing preventing a "perfect" balance is the mentality that it cannot be done.
Then you get suggestions like some of the ones in the OP's list that would end up making things worse than they are.
Good to see nothing changes.
Everyone always try to nerf the templates they can’t immediately kill in three hits, alone or in a group.
Leave parry alone it has never been an issue, nor is it with wrestling.
Aside from this PVP was rarely ever balanced from a group perspective. There were tweaks like when one would spam evil omen while being chased down by someone spamming running shot and fire weapon stacked with corpse skin but that was fixed and wasn’t the norm for mechanics.
Albeit I haven’t played for a while or kept up with mechanics, looks like a lot of the same complaints.
But carry on.
Everyone always try to nerf the templates they can’t immediately kill in three hits, alone or in a group.
Leave parry alone it has never been an issue, nor is it with wrestling.
Aside from this PVP was rarely ever balanced from a group perspective. There were tweaks like when one would spam evil omen while being chased down by someone spamming running shot and fire weapon stacked with corpse skin but that was fixed and wasn’t the norm for mechanics.
Albeit I haven’t played for a while or kept up with mechanics, looks like a lot of the same complaints.
But carry on.
So you ran to a public house after I flagged you and died on the door steps. Glad we got that sorted out.
Dexers can eat up non parry mages. Again, that is why playing on a dead shard with bad pvpers skews people's views of pvp that is actually competitive.
Happy Rage
Lore Keeper
Lol 3 guys that don’t play UO anymore, giving their feedback. Great game we play. 
And how does that make our opinions less valid? We don't play BECAUSE of the way pvp (hell, because of the way UO itself) is. Feel free to address our points instead of trying to discredit our posts because we're not actively playing UO.Lol 3 guys that don’t play UO anymore, giving their feedback. Great game we play.
As is my style, began reading this thread until people started saying I'm better than you and theory crafting template fights, then just browsed.
-I would like to analyze some of the claims stated in here though. @CovenantX you stated 80% of players are mages now and only 20% are dexxers, therefore parry isn't necessary in today's meta? This is just cause and effect. I have yet to see someone willing to refine their suit for higher resists without having parry on their template. Then the you see the benefit of one person being able to evade 7 flamestrikes and what flamestrikes do hit them only do what, 25 damage at most? People don't play dexxers because everyone has bushido/parry.
Understand that people didn't quit playing dexxers because they wanted to play mages, they play mages because dexxers usefulness against what is currently a bushido/parry dominated meta isn't effective. I have made one mage without parry in the last two years. In the last 3 months I've had it, I've played it three times because 1) I can guarantee I'm going to be target as I can't be refined and don't have parry 2) most players I fight against are bokuto mages and swinging a 40 damage weapon at 1.25 that make it almost impossible to get viable damage off and 3) I now get hit for 30+ damage exp's instead of the 18 damage exp's I hit their refined suits for.
Parry mystic, evasion necro, bokuto mage. These are the templates I play because it is necessary to have evasion and refinements.
-From what I've seen, we about all agree on fish pies being stupid? A fourth level heal spell heals for 50+ damage, while a full 6th and 7th circle exp fs combo does about 40 damage to a refined target with fish pies. I don't think it needs to be explained any further.
-Shatters are a troll tactic. If I'm in the middle of a fight involving 20 people and three of them are continually shattering me until I have no supplies, I will just leave and restock. To suggest consumables are an unnecessary item used by incompetent players is misguided. I will not fight without heals and cures because I'm being constantly shattered fighting 5v10+. Thinking I should fight without pots against odds like that is silly. So from my experience, I'm either being shattered fighting against odds to begin with, or it's the same 3-4 stealthers that just sit at the gate shattering and hiding with no consequence. Neat.
-I would like to analyze some of the claims stated in here though. @CovenantX you stated 80% of players are mages now and only 20% are dexxers, therefore parry isn't necessary in today's meta? This is just cause and effect. I have yet to see someone willing to refine their suit for higher resists without having parry on their template. Then the you see the benefit of one person being able to evade 7 flamestrikes and what flamestrikes do hit them only do what, 25 damage at most? People don't play dexxers because everyone has bushido/parry.
Understand that people didn't quit playing dexxers because they wanted to play mages, they play mages because dexxers usefulness against what is currently a bushido/parry dominated meta isn't effective. I have made one mage without parry in the last two years. In the last 3 months I've had it, I've played it three times because 1) I can guarantee I'm going to be target as I can't be refined and don't have parry 2) most players I fight against are bokuto mages and swinging a 40 damage weapon at 1.25 that make it almost impossible to get viable damage off and 3) I now get hit for 30+ damage exp's instead of the 18 damage exp's I hit their refined suits for.
Parry mystic, evasion necro, bokuto mage. These are the templates I play because it is necessary to have evasion and refinements.
-From what I've seen, we about all agree on fish pies being stupid? A fourth level heal spell heals for 50+ damage, while a full 6th and 7th circle exp fs combo does about 40 damage to a refined target with fish pies. I don't think it needs to be explained any further.
-Shatters are a troll tactic. If I'm in the middle of a fight involving 20 people and three of them are continually shattering me until I have no supplies, I will just leave and restock. To suggest consumables are an unnecessary item used by incompetent players is misguided. I will not fight without heals and cures because I'm being constantly shattered fighting 5v10+. Thinking I should fight without pots against odds like that is silly. So from my experience, I'm either being shattered fighting against odds to begin with, or it's the same 3-4 stealthers that just sit at the gate shattering and hiding with no consequence. Neat.
the 80/20% is a rough estimate which is obviously closer to accurate than the ideal 50/50 mages/dexers. Parry isn't necessary, because I can play fine without it. Ganks are the only situations where it could make a real difference, the problem is it makes too much of a difference. hence why Parry was even brought up.
I refine all my dexer suits... Mages can't miss with their spells, they deal more damage than most dexer attacks, so it only makes sense. to reduce over-all damage taken, who cares if you get hit if you're able to out-heal the damage you're taking? on a mage, you pick up Parry and refine yoursuit so you can have the best of both worlds. so, I don't see how this supports the argument that Parry is fine the way it is.
the benefit to evade 7 flame strikes huh? Obviously, that's not a one vs one situation, a single mage couldn't cast 7 flamestrikes before evasion has expired... also, if there are 7 people stupid enough to drop a sync on someone that JUST CASTED EVASION, they deserve to fail on a kill.
Yea, the problem is people weren't playing Dexers so much before the tactics requirement were reduced. why? the vast majority of mages were Wrestle/Anatomy+Parry.... a simple search of "combat changes" would show you all you need to know.
#1) obviously, because you'd take more damage than everyone else would if they were all refined and you are not, and you're actually able to be hit enough to be killed...
#2) Sure, you're fighting bokuto mages because they gain more offense with roughly the same defense... Bushido + Parry is rewarded by using a 1-handed weapon... they block more often, they gain hit-spells weapon specials (NS does damage that exceeds AI sometimes) + they can still chug potions (obv).
#3) Sure, how do you think a dexer feels? typically they have no means to reduce resistances.. Armor Ignore is the only thing that does enough damage to compete, but they still hit less than 50% of the time.
What happened to "If archers weren't so OP, I wouldn't have Parry"? archers were nerfed... Now more mages have parry, That's a shocker...
let me ask you a question... When's the last time you had a one vs one fight with a Dexer?
Yea, but you know what? Fish pies wouldn't make much a difference by themselves if Parry & Refinements weren't part of the equation. coincidentally, all 3 are part of it, and the vast majority won't pvp without all of it. I'm glad someone else pointed that out though, I hate to be the only one =/
I'm not denying some people probably do use shatter potions as a troll tactic.
But, there are people that use them in order to do exactly what you say it causes.... "run you out of supplies, so you either die, or you leave the fight" either of the two benefits the opposing side. That is not enough to justify the sort of nerf that is suggested in this thread. Not even close.
I never said they were unecessary per-se. the way most people use them is though. I know you won't fight without Heals & Cures, you admitted you didn't even have a single pvp character that doesn't have alchemy when you played in our guild. I don't blame you, I'm not saying people should pvp without potions, although it would be an ample test to prove that I'm correct saying potions are too powerful, but it's obvious enough to me that I am without that extreme test, to show people use them whenever they take enough damage or get poisoned regardless of the situation because it's faster & more efficient than skill-based methods.
Considering you can't shatter someone without being revealed, the consequence is a cause of you not playing a template that can reveal & kill the stealthers... I do think it's interesting that it's "the same 3-4 stealthers" though, I mean to me, you're setting yourself up purposefully in order to provoke a nerf to something that's a non-issue, in fact it actually helps to expose to real issue.
It can't be a coincidence that:
100% of the people that are against Parry being changed are all Parry-mages. - Even De leet ed said parry was in need of a nerf during the combat changes testing of Publish 96. of course he's a dexer.
I play mages at least 80% of the time in pvp, I'm against parry being so good there aren't any viable options to take its place.
100% of the people against shatter potions are people that will not pvp if they don't have potions. Almost everyone of them self-admitted to this.
Why are some of the 3 worst pvpers assembled the loudest ones in this thread? (cossack, warshak, covenant). They are not even good pvpers on their bad shard.
Paith, do you have actual arguments to present, or are you just going to continue trying to derail the thread with ****-talking? I mean, I already know the answer, but I want to hear it from you.
I check back occasionally to see if it’s worth playing casually.Lol 3 guys that don’t play UO anymore, giving their feedback. Great game we play.
Doesn’t really change the perspective and your post only reinforces the opinion.
Potions became a necessity. ONCE AGAIN you don't see these things because you PvP primarily in a place where these things are not a necessity.
On ls I have no problem playing a non parry mage, and I use lethal poison because it's laughably easy to kill people there who aren't using potions.
On Atlantic, playing without parry is a death sentence. Nerfing parry in really any capacity would bring back super archers and flip the tables to a dexer meta. If it happens that's fine, I'll adapt to it and just play the best stuff anyways. But suggesting otherwise is ignorant.
PS. Every char I play but one swings a weapon and I have no trouble against parry.
On ls I have no problem playing a non parry mage, and I use lethal poison because it's laughably easy to kill people there who aren't using potions.
On Atlantic, playing without parry is a death sentence. Nerfing parry in really any capacity would bring back super archers and flip the tables to a dexer meta. If it happens that's fine, I'll adapt to it and just play the best stuff anyways. But suggesting otherwise is ignorant.
PS. Every char I play but one swings a weapon and I have no trouble against parry.
The only reason that's the case is because the pvp on Atlantic is HEAVILY based around ganking, where Parry is necessary to survive against a group of dexers. If it's a single dexer, Parry is overpowered - that is where the problem with it lies.
It's not ganking, it's group fighting. If u run around by yourself yeah it prolly looks like ganking. Maybe don't do that, it's an mmo.
If I was talking about group fighting (I wasn't), I would have said group fighting. But, even in a group fight, Parry isn't that much of a problem - other players can deal with a parry mage (like, oh, idk, another mage), or multiple dexers can attack the parry mage - sooner or later, the RNG will roll in favor of the dexers. In a 1v1 against someone with a weapon skill, which is how pvp should be balanced, Parry Mages are overpowered.
The 3 if you (covenant, great DC, Cossack). All have one thing in common. You play on lake Superior in a guild together and manage to have the fact same mentality on this subject. Amazingly I know, everywhere else has the opposite mentality. He'll skip atl, go to great lakes. The only PvP guild there runs 10+ deep at all times. They have parry, they use potions. It's all within the confines of PvP.
As far as 1v1 on a dexer, a healing Bushido dexer watching his timers should never lose to anyone. 1v1 is an entirely different ball game, moreso based in an honor system then mechanics. The game bring balanced towards 1v1 in any aspect would demolish what occurs in group fights.
Why don't the 3 of you just sit on LS and all agree to not run parry and u'll be fine.
Why don't the 3 of you just sit on LS and all agree to not run parry and u'll be fine.
The fact that we play together (which really isn't even the case anymore) has absolutely nothing to do with our mentality & arguments. If I thought their arguments were bad, I would say so & respond to their arguments, just like I am with posts like yours.
In fact, here's an example of a VERY bad argument:
Why would you NOT balance around a 1 on 1 fight? Group fighting is an entirely different dynamic, where things that are overpowered in a 1v1 fight (i.e. parry) aren't as overpowered when groups are fighting, simply BECAUSE of it being a group fight. If you're attempting to balance something like Parry around what happens in a group, it's going to be overpowered when someone's NOT fighting in a group. Amazingly, that's exactly what happens with Parry when it's 1 mage vs 1 dexer.
yea, you running from the worst pvper suggests otherwise, did you ever switch to that DP char? I told you to start making sense earlier, I guess you're not capable of such a thing, but, you have too much of an ego, to nerf something you can't play without, the best part of it, is your posts alone demonstrate that.
your bias & your ego prevents you from responding with any valid points. I don't even know why you're still posting.
I don't run parry on Atl the only shard I EVER had parry on a mage was on GL, and I dropped it a few weeks later because it just wasn't worth it to me, I don't play dexers anywhere near as much as I'd like to because they can't hit anything reliable enough to play without a group. that much is gathered by yours and others posts in this thread that are seemingly against nerfing parry. if you're against nerfing parry, don't post things that support to argument to nerf it.
One vs one A Parry/bushido dexer could be hard to kill, but the difference is, they're hard to kill mostly because they run.... in that sense, no one should ever lose one vs one, Paith knows
(but as a mage). you act like Dexers are the only things that can run. Group fights are already demolished if people are smart enough to sync dump, only takes 2 people to dump one guy from full HP to nothing in 3-4 seconds if it all lands.... Mages are the only ones that could reliably do so. so... your point is valid, but it supports my claim, thank you I guess?
all you guys do is contradict yourselves when it comes to this, it's unbelievable.
the more competent players you have in a group, the better chance you have of winning.... it doesn't matter if the game is balanced in group vs group or one vs one at that point.
But, if you balance it in group vs group as opposed to one vs one, you end up with less pvp... because fewer people bother to do anything when they don't have a group. so, Obviously, one vs one balancing is essential to the success of UO pvp.
"Shatter potions are nothing but a troll tactic, but because I don't pvp without a full stock of consumables, I leave the fight to restock?" What? are you guys for real? LOL such a joke.
"Parry isn't overpowered at all, but I use it on every single character, so don't nerf it!"
"People don't play dexers because people with parry are too hard to hit" & "But I like parry because when I run into 2+ dexers, I don't get destroyed!"
I don't even know why I bother posting in threads like this, the argument is made in my favor by the opposition.
You know what's wrong with it, you don't want it fixed. it's literally the same thing with illegal programs. Half of the people in this thread that I've played with (in the same vent/ts/discord) said they'd quit UO if certain third-party programs were deemed "illegal" and people started getting bans/suspensions for using such things. That's the state of pvp, and much worse the state of the game in general that we're arguing about in the big picture.
Yeah I don’t know how they’d balance pvp on group fighting. The numbers are disproportionate most times, so to say 3 vs 3 would be the same ratio as 1 vs 1.
Sure they have tweaked a few mechanics based on it like cleansing winds and the evil omen archer scenarios, but ultimately is based on healing and damage output given a specific template.
yea, you running from the worst pvper suggests otherwise, did you ever switch to that DP char? I told you to start making sense earlier, I guess you're not capable of such a thing, but, you have too much of an ego, to nerf something you can't play without, the best part of it, is your posts alone demonstrate that.
your bias & your ego prevents you from responding with any valid points. I don't even know why you're still posting.
I don't run parry on Atl the only shard I EVER had parry on a mage was on GL, and I dropped it a few weeks later because it just wasn't worth it to me, I don't play dexers anywhere near as much as I'd like to because they can't hit anything reliable enough to play without a group. that much is gathered by yours and others posts in this thread that are seemingly against nerfing parry. if you're against nerfing parry, don't post things that support to argument to nerf it.
One vs one A Parry/bushido dexer could be hard to kill, but the difference is, they're hard to kill mostly because they run.... in that sense, no one should ever lose one vs one, Paith knows
Group fights are already demolished if people are smart enough to sync dump, only takes 2 people to dump one guy from full HP to nothing in 3-4 seconds if it all lands.... Mages are the only ones that could reliably do so. so... your point is valid, but it supports my claim, thank you I guess?
all you guys do is contradict yourselves when it comes to this, it's unbelievable.
the more competent players you have in a group, the better chance you have of winning.... it doesn't matter if the game is balanced in group vs group or one vs one at that point.
But, if you balance it in group vs group as opposed to one vs one, you end up with less pvp... because fewer people bother to do anything when they don't have a group. so, Obviously, one vs one balancing is essential to the success of UO pvp.
"Shatter potions are nothing but a troll tactic, but because I don't pvp without a full stock of consumables, I leave the fight to restock?" What? are you guys for real? LOL such a joke.
"Parry isn't overpowered at all, but I use it on every single character, so don't nerf it!"
"People don't play dexers because people with parry are too hard to hit" & "But I like parry because when I run into 2+ dexers, I don't get destroyed!"
I don't even know why I bother posting in threads like this, the argument is made in my favor by the opposition.
You know what's wrong with it, you don't want it fixed. it's literally the same thing with illegal programs. Half of the people in this thread that I've played with (in the same vent/ts/discord) said they'd quit UO if certain third-party programs were deemed "illegal" and people started getting bans/suspensions for using such things. That's the state of pvp, and much worse the state of the game in general that we're arguing about in the big picture.
I didn't say I use parry on most chars because I want to and it's op. I used it on most chars because you have to. Getting turned on by a CPL max dmg archers or dismounters when ur super outnumbered isn't fun. Parry HELPS against that at a cost of losing offense. Would much rather have scribe or poison or alchy or whatever than parry but guess what, need some defense. Where you play you don't need that defense.
Even the best mages 1v1 mages know this to be true. @Aeyko and @PaithanTheElf regularly play dp mages with no parry for running around 1v1. But in any semblence of a group fight those chars have the ability to get run over, so the added defense of parry balances the fights out in those cases.
You're still making our argument for us. We're ALL aware that parry helps a single mage against a group. We're not trying to dispute that. Take a minute and actually READ what we're saying: Parry, in a 1v1 setting (which is how you should balance pvp) is OVERPOWERED (which you literally just admitted to.) If you're fighting 3 dexers by yourself, it lets you survive and potentially get some kills. You want to balance the pvp in this game around group fighting, which isn't going to work. I refer to this old thread, where multiple pvp'ers all said "pvp balance should be based on 1v1 fights": Discussing Balance
Also, how much of an offensive penalty is parry? 5% SDI on mages? That's only a 1-2 point decrease in damage, which is ultimately negligible. If you're referring to other skills, I'd agree...but you, by your own admission here:
are saying the same thing I've been saying. You do not need parry to fight another player 1v1, and certainly don't need it for another mage. You can swap it out for skills like Alchemy, Poisoning, Inscribe, etc.
I'm not making your case for anything.
Let me put it one more way. I have a weapon on every char I play but one. I 1v1 all the time. And I have NO PROBLEMS with fighting someone with parry in a 1v1. 99% of people I 1v1 that do not have parry get absolutely manhandled with the exception of about 4 players.
You know why some of the best archers stopped playing archers? It's not because they couldn't hit people with parry, they still did just fine, I'd get mowed down with heightened senses turned on on a Myst parry lol. No, it's because they felt they NEEDED parry or parry/evade so they made parry dexers instead. Syncs are meta right now, evade is a counter. Whether the sync involves straight mage syncs or a combo of para shots, splinters, you name it.
Now you might not see that in the guard zone on ur blue with a weapon and shield in ur hand not using potions like they are cheating or good forbid being orange to participate in PvP that everyone else here participates in. But you still feel your argument is valid. From others perspective you don't even PvP, what you call PvP is another matter.
Nerfing parry fixes nothing, and creates a problem. All that being said, I think toning down evasion could be worth discussion in both 1v1 and group scenarios. Take 1v1 for instance. If you properly cycle your apple timer and evade timer you could just not die if you wanted to.
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Yes, in fact, you are. Here's me saying "Parry is overpowered and unnecessary in a 1v1" twice, in this very thread:
Here's @CovenantX saying it:
Here's you admitting that Parry is overpowered:
If Parry wasn't overpowered (it is), you wouldn't be using it on so many characters.
Furthermore, you are attempting to balance pvp around group fighting. Which isn't possible - how big of a group are you trying to balance around? 3v3? 5v5? 10v10? Even if you DID balance around groups of those sizes, it serves absolutely no purpose. Group pvp (whether even #s or not) is vastly different from 1v1 pvp - a group can easily focus on a single target, allowing them to deal FAR more damage than a single person could (allowing for an instant kill of the designated target.)
I wasn't directing it to you personally, but we know you use it on most chars, EVERYONE Does and besides, I have no reason to lie about it.
in this post, you're referring to you being outnumbered by dexers, further supporting my claims yet again. If parry didn't have such a high chance of blocking (passively) without affecting your offense (5% sdi? lol, yea that's a big sacrifice) you'd be on even terms with a dexer one vs one.
I agree, you don't need that defense (or any defense) on LS, but it's because there isn't pvp on LS =/
I play Atl for pvp, I don't run parry on any characters there, but I only have 3 templates I use there (too lazy to farm shadowguard to suit the rest of my chars =X, clearly I'm not the only one). It's not exactly a good thing when you have a game with nearly unlimited possible templates/builds and only small handful (I mean a small handful -Trump hand) of them are 100% of what you'd ever run into when it comes to pvp.
Look, you don't even participate in what most even consider PvP, so I can barely take your arguments seriously. It's players like you that are very vocal but lack the experience of seeing the bigger picture that cause actions to either not be done or be done with the wrong intentions.
I think the vast majority of players can agree fish pies are overpowered, shatter potions are a troll tactic and shouldnt exist, parry is fine and maybe a few other small tweaks. Changing something that has been in the game since inception that really needs no tweaks is assanine. That's like trying to say resisting spells is op and you should be able to paralye someone or Mana vamp someone anyways.
But here once again we have a vocal 2-3 players from lake Superior trying to force random discussion on changes that no one sees valid.
If you think it's a problem that everyones templates involve parry today... Newsflash it's not because parry is overpowered, it's because other things are and parry offsets it.
TBH I think PvP is about as balanced feeling as it has felt in a really long time with the exception of fish pies turning off so much damage
TBH I think PvP is about as balanced feeling as it has felt in a really long time with the exception of fish pies turning off so much damage
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Irrelevant, and if you have to attempt to call my credibility into question because "I don't pvp on Atl", you automatically lose the argument. Also, I am capable of seeing the bigger picture. The imbalance of people playing dexers (let's go with Covenant's 20%) is evidence of PARRY BEING OVERPOWERED (and skills that can supplement its effectiveness, like Bushido, only add to this)
That's not how something being overpowered works, dude. I'd be more than happy to explain the reasons why this is the case. But, since you're clearly unwilling to listen and getting pissed off over this, I don't know why I'm continuing to bother.
Because you guys are terrible and talk in theory. I am past that because you can't see how you are wrong. So let's take it from theory to practice.
Let's see. I have group templates and 1v1 templates. You were on a 1 v1 temp (or one that would suck in groups). So i was switching to mine. In the 5 mins it took you left. You saw that you would get killed AGAIN.
Again, you guys speak from crappy pvp on a crap server. I have given you the option to put your theories to the test vs me. Lets go.
You used to be able to resist offensive spells back in the day. Think 2 damage flamestrike if your resist proced.
So then, HOW are we wrong? We're backing up our arguments with logic. You are not.
See, the thing is, shatter pots ARE useful. With the over-reliance on consumables for the vast majority of UO's current pvp'ers, they're useful for ending a fight quicker.
All 3 of us use pots, although the degree to which we use them varies. But we don't rely on them to the point that we can't fight without them/will leave the fight if we get shattered over and over, like Learn Me does:
If the intended purpose of Shatters is to reduce the amount of consumables someone carries (it is), thus removing from the fight (which it does), they're working as intended.
While Learn Me is presenting his case better than you are, his arguments are still flawed. You shouldn't need to rely on consumables to that extent.
Y'see, Paith, the thing with you is that you are EXTREMELY biased on these forums. Everything you post proves that.
You were on an Anatomy/Healing Parry-mage so, that's a group template now huh? haha, you never cease to disappoint me... what makes it a group template, Magery? LOL *face-palms like a f***ing octopus* oh wait.... at the time, your "group effort" was *Curse*, watch 2-3 archers moving shot people down... didn't Virem post a video about that?
You'd have to kill me a first time for me to get killed again, btw... you left during our first fight and never showed up for the 2nd. so There's that.... but you fail to realize it's got nothing to do with this discussion. I understand completely that your ego won't let it go and at the same time, we need some amusement. I'll just leave it at that.
So dexers are complaining they cant hit parry mages (singular) and mages are complaining they cant survive dexers (plural), It seems pretty obvious why there aren't any dexers running around without other people, the ones that are, are non-VvV or stealthers "trolling with shatter potions" (lol)
Before the publish 96 nerf to Moving Shot & AI, people were saying they'd drop parry if archery was toned down... I knew at the time, I'm sure they knew it too, that it wasn't true. because that isn't why they had parry to begin with. They had parry because it was the best most efficient skill that didn't break focus spec at the time, and it was a pretty big penalty to SDI dropping from 30% down to 15%... in fact, it was such a big penalty that there weren't really any non-focus'ed mages at the time.
Now the story is changing since focus/non-focus spec doesn't matter anymore (5 SDI is nothing) dexers are weaker compared to mage templates now than they've been in forever? yep, the ratio between mages & dexers shows that. the lack of people in pvp partially reflects that too.
I fully agree with the fish pies... but to say pvp is balanced when there's a small fraction of templates in play is laughable.
Sure, there are plenty of mage templates (just a coincidence they all include Parry).... if you're dexer, you're forced to play in groups, or you need 4/6 chivalry or something like smokebombs (ninja/hiding/stealth).... not to mention the constant running that makes the fight long a drawn out to where it's boring A F, instead of fun like it should be.
Was at work and won't go back and quote each individual post you and Cossack have made, but I'll try to respond to everything I read here in a somewhat followable fashion.
I think the argument we're having is more a chicken or the egg deal. The way you put it, you seem to be under the impression people quit playing dexxers because everyone played anat parry mages? I would argue people were forced into anat parry mages because anything holding a weapon without parry would be disarm splintered and mauled by archers. I don't think you'll find anyone will say they played an anat parry mage because it was the most fun template they could find? People were forced into it.
You reference that the combat changes to lower tactics should have increased the number of dexxers? It made bokuto mages a viable template without needing to hit 90 skill increase and be able to fit 45 hci and dci. It made offensive parry mages more viable, with the ability to refine for resists and the downside (lower dci cap) offset by having parry and bushido.
HERE'S THE KICKER - OP suggested a change to evasion because of this. Fish pies also need to be looked at because of this. I think our main point is parry is prevalent because of splinter weapons and how necessary it is for refinements and evasion.
I look at suggested changes based on group pvp. I could give a **** less about 1v1 with refinements, pies, max hpr, 800 skills, max everything and people just running. Don't care whether you can beat a dexxer on a low competition server. I care about the pvp that I find 90% of the time I'm looking for players. Spending 20 minutes chasing someone around is not interesting. However, as I've done since beginning pvp and I continue to do, I don't use consumables 1v1 unless fighting an lp'er because lol.
In this post, you say two people will dump someone from full to nothing in 3 seconds which is why they're more useful than dexxers? I realize you were using that to discount group pvp as the scope with which to balance, but I feel we can still assume this. As explained, refinements and pies mean my exp fs on an already cursed target will likely be 42 damage on the high end. 42x2 is well short of 150 damage. Then toss in a 60% evasion rate of those spells? At least that's the number I've seen thrown around. Evasion and refinements are the culprit of the parry meta right now. It's not even a debate. This is why we suggest a change to evasion itself. How many plain parry mages do you see now?yea, you running from the worst pvper suggests otherwise, did you ever switch to that DP char? I told you to start making sense earlier, I guess you're not capable of such a thing, but, you have too much of an ego, to nerf something you can't play without, the best part of it, is your posts alone demonstrate that.
your bias & your ego prevents you from responding with any valid points. I don't even know why you're still posting.
I don't run parry on Atl the only shard I EVER had parry on a mage was on GL, and I dropped it a few weeks later because it just wasn't worth it to me, I don't play dexers anywhere near as much as I'd like to because they can't hit anything reliable enough to play without a group. that much is gathered by yours and others posts in this thread that are seemingly against nerfing parry. if you're against nerfing parry, don't post things that support to argument to nerf it.
One vs one A Parry/bushido dexer could be hard to kill, but the difference is, they're hard to kill mostly because they run.... in that sense, no one should ever lose one vs one, Paith knows
Group fights are already demolished if people are smart enough to sync dump, only takes 2 people to dump one guy from full HP to nothing in 3-4 seconds if it all lands.... Mages are the only ones that could reliably do so. so... your point is valid, but it supports my claim, thank you I guess?
all you guys do is contradict yourselves when it comes to this, it's unbelievable.
the more competent players you have in a group, the better chance you have of winning.... it doesn't matter if the game is balanced in group vs group or one vs one at that point.
But, if you balance it in group vs group as opposed to one vs one, you end up with less pvp... because fewer people bother to do anything when they don't have a group. so, Obviously, one vs one balancing is essential to the success of UO pvp.
"Shatter potions are nothing but a troll tactic, but because I don't pvp without a full stock of consumables, I leave the fight to restock?" What? are you guys for real? LOL such a joke.
"Parry isn't overpowered at all, but I use it on every single character, so don't nerf it!"
"People don't play dexers because people with parry are too hard to hit" & "But I like parry because when I run into 2+ dexers, I don't get destroyed!"
I don't even know why I bother posting in threads like this, the argument is made in my favor by the opposition.
You know what's wrong with it, you don't want it fixed. it's literally the same thing with illegal programs. Half of the people in this thread that I've played with (in the same vent/ts/discord) said they'd quit UO if certain third-party programs were deemed "illegal" and people started getting bans/suspensions for using such things. That's the state of pvp, and much worse the state of the game in general that we're arguing about in the big picture.
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