(Player News) VvV Artifact Instatement Poll

[Lore Denin (GL)]

Freja what do you think about what I said earlier?

Should VvV potions, VvV horses, VvV robes, etc... all be usable by everyone, too? What would be the point of being VvV then? No risk full reward?

I and others just think it would look really shoddy if it were implemented that way.. because you can simply just join VvV. You know?

First point would be getting the items. You would have to buy from a VvV player or kill one to get them. Second they are all cursed and antique so they neither last long nor can be siege blessed. People will have to join or spend a great deal of gold to those in system to realistically use them on a consistent basis.

Good points on the horses, they should remain character bound and ridable only by the character when in VvV. The robes should be useable sellable but only people with negative karma should be able to wear the Vice robes and only those with positive should be able to wear the Virtue Robes likewise the horses. Traps potions etc should also only be useable by the VvV players.

The discussion is really about the artifacts themselves, and the power gap they create outside the VvV zones. On other shards people can hunt etc in complete safety from VvV players so its not an issue, here they are not safe anywhere and so fighting someone loaded with artifacts they can easily replace like crystiline rings, orny's crimsons, etc while attack a pvmer in a basic mod imbued suit is silly stupid.

That's the type of fight you redline them before you start even trying to kill them and just leave because you feel so bad. Who wants pvp to be like that?

The truth is if you are as good as you think, you are likely going to kill them anyway but at least they have a chance and aren't an instant kill. As a bonus you now you have spare items for when you die so you don't have to spend as much time grinding out towns to replace them.

I see everyone having the ability to use but only VvV players the ability to acquire a win win for everyone, except people that need a huge power gap to enjoy pvping.

-Lore

 

[Ol MacDeezy]

Yeah, don´t we all just hate when we actually have to play the game to play the game.
I´m sure there are lots of FPS games for those who just want a quick PvP fix.

now lets say someone only has one account and doesnt have the cash sitting around to buy X amount of soulstones to make multiple templates to switch back and forth from pvm to pvp? or their alternate account is reserved for gathering resources to sell...or w/e the situation may be.... so now that person who likes to pvp and doesnt have the ability to farm for whatever reason is penalized?

 

[Critical Gaming]

The discussion is really about the artifacts themselves, and the power gap they create outside the VvV zones.

http://oi60.***********/flh8bc.jpg
http://oi59.***********/jv0op3.jpg

On other shards people can hunt etc in complete safety from VvV players so its not an issue, here they are not safe anywhere and so fighting someone loaded with artifacts they can easily replace like crystiline rings, orny's crimsons, etc while attack a pvmer in a basic mod imbued suit is silly stupid.

"here they are not safe anywhere" - Because Siege Perilous.

Also, non-active towns are safe, in all facets.

As far as "easily replaced" - let's continue to drill on the fact that there will be a high point cost and fighting to get the points in the first place, which is not "afk silver farming" like it was during factions.

Based off of what you're saying, it sounds like you don't equip to win anyways. You have the option of equipping some of this nice monster loot going around, but if you're lacking the ability to survive then I see why you'd run a modless imbued suit.

That's the type of fight you redline them before you start even trying to kill them and just leave because you feel so bad. Who wants pvp to be like that?

That's called "PKing" - PvPing is a different beast. Example - fighting at a town over altars against someone who equipped to fight would be PvP. Killing you while you're farming daemons in hythloth would be PKing. I'm not fighting with you, I'm killing you.

The truth is if you are as good as you think, you are likely going to kill them anyway but at least they have a chance and aren't an instant kill. As a bonus you now you have spare items for when you die so you don't have to spend as much time grinding out towns to replace them.

One would die instantly regardless of whether or not they wear a good suit if they're PvMing and don't have any survival skills. PKs templates are built to kill PvMers. All we did back in the day as VmP was PK, but when it came to PvPing against REV or PEE or any actual PvP guild, we all basically threw waves of corpses at them repeatedly. Why? Because we sucked at the game and didn't equip to win.

How did I combat that? I joined up with some DKB and we created EVO, and we farmed runics and ML arties to equip ourselves with. It ended up being some great PvP. OTF vs EVO days.

I see everyone having the ability to use but only VvV players the ability to acquire a win win for everyone, except people that need a huge power gap to enjoy pvping.

I see it as a win/win, but I also see it as completely ********. Artifacts aren't creating a "huge power gap" - See the screen shots above. They're simply another way to farm equal to lesser gear and it's by PvPing - which is promoting player interaction in active VvV towns, with the drawback that you need to be in VvV to wear them.

Trust me - I wouldn't be afraid of you if you wore a VvV crimson cincture or crystalline ring. I also don't think you'd wear them in the first place, anyways.

I also think that you being able to wear them would be the equivalent of a non-factioneer being able to wear life force hued armor or being able to use monster ignore, without the perma-flag or the 20 minute statloss.

 

[Uvtha]

It's not that I would care if they are wearing them or not, but the fact that the rest of the system isn't being accounted for in the argument. When the whole picture is taken into account... it just seems shoddy and doesn't make sense. Don't you think?

I really wouldn't mind if it was all available. Non VvV people will not have regular access to these items. I honestly doubt you would see any impact for people playing VvV.

Anyway, I wouldn't sweat it. They aren't going to make any siege only changes, and even if we all wanted the arties we probably wouldn't even get them them.

To be fair about your gear gap pics, one is a lucky rolled legendary artifact, something not common, especially not here. Sure I could get that... but then when I die its gone (and the pvper who killed me is now wearing it), and I have to go back to farming for months on end to get a similar item. A VvVer can just get a new orny whenever they have the points. 99% of monster loot is ****, even legendary stuff, which again, is not common outside of bosses.

Honestly though, I do understand. My notions about everything being open are pretty extreme, and I would wager unpopular. I just hate artificial barriers, especially in a sandbox mmo.

 

[Uvtha]

So you are forcing the Bo to pvm and craft in order to pvp. You are the ones forcing people into your playstyle.

I think pretty much everyone is pro pvp gear... just not gear that a non pvper can't use if they beat you in a fight.

 

[virem]

Now, I have never played on Siege before, however, I have pvped for a very long time. We have a group of pvpers coming to Siege because we thought it could be fun. I have read most of this thread and I think I understand the two sides.

What I don't understand is, why would anyone be on Siege, and NOT want to be in VvV? Shouldn't the argument that not everyone can get the artifacts be invalid because everyone SHOULD want to be in VvV? Shouldn't Siege be -the- pvp shard?

The fact of the matter is, on prodo shards there isn't much reason to participate in the VvV system the way it is, you get your artifacts, you get some banners or whatever, and then you no longer really need silver, and no longer need to fight in the battles. The VvV system on Siege could be SO much better than prodo because of the fact that people would need to continue to participate to get the artifacts over and over when they die.

You don't want artifacts on Siege because it gives PVPers advantages, (because they really don't...if a bad player is fighting a good player the good players gonna win regardless of artifacts) you want them in the game because it gives more reason for people to participate -- Siege is the only shard where the current VvV system can be really good.

 

[TheDrAJ]

....

You don't want artifacts on Siege because it gives PVPers advantages, (because they really don't...if a bad player is fighting a good player the good players gonna win regardless of artifacts) you want them in the game because it gives more reason for people to participate -- Siege is the only shard where the current VvV system can be really good.

If this is true - whats the problem with making them usable by everyone VvV or not ?

 

[FrejaSP]

What I don't understand is, why would anyone be on Siege, and NOT want to be in VvV? Shouldn't the argument that not everyone can get the artifacts be invalid because everyone SHOULD want to be in VvV? Shouldn't Siege be -the- pvp shard?

Siege is not only about PvP, alot comes here because the economy is better, they want to run shops, be crafters, kill monsters.
They are not aggressive but they accept the risk for getting killed of red or blue, who have less than 5 murderer count.

Also some like to PvP, but they do not like to get attacked in town when shopping or doing quests. They may not be aggressive, but will fight if attacked. They like the risk, but PvP is not their main playstyle

 

[virem]

I think maybe I don't understand where people are safe on siege. Where are guard zones?

If ppl want to pvm on siege they should still join vvv for the arties.

 

[Victim of Siege]

I think maybe I don't understand where people are safe on siege. Where are guard zones?

If ppl want to pvm on siege they should still join vvv for the arties.

You are only safe on Siege when you are logged out. You can be killed anywhere by the crafty PK, I have seen people killed inside a guard zone many times. as far as why be on Siege and not be in VvV? Well I personally like it because of the community, the "ambiance" of the shard, the risk, the ability to attack the jerk that just smarted off to me if I so desire, and of course the cookies. I do not PvP anymore due to sucking at it, and just generally not liking the play style. I love playing on Siege because it has become home and I feel comfortable and happy here, so I remain here helping anyone out that needs it, and doing what I can provide any crafting needs.

 

[virem]

So.... If you are never safe. Why wouldn't you just join VvV. Everyone gets arties everyone is happy?

 

[Victim of Siege]

Because i don't like PvP, this is not a PvP specific shard.

 

[GarthGrey]

It's a Risk vs Reward shard, the Devs just forgot to leave our rewards for us.

 

[kelmo]

To be honest, I see no compelling argument that changes my opinion. Still split down the middle as I figured. Ya gotta love Siege.

 

[Ru TnT]

I just want something useful to spend my points on. After I got the pardon there wasn't really any reason to keep going, since someone decided that a point cap was a good idea.

I also think it might be a good idea to get rid of the owner bound tag on the VvV 10.0 SoTs.

 

[Kat]

I just don't see any compelling reason why we shouldn't have the VvV gear rewards on Siege.

 

[Revvo]

Population must be critical if the Tea Party Brigade can't even muster enough people to swing a pvp vote in their favour !

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

"here they are not safe anywhere" - Because Siege Perilous.

Also, non-active towns are safe, in all facets.

As far as "easily replaced" - let's continue to drill on the fact that there will be a high point cost and fighting to get the points in the first place, which is not "afk silver farming" like it was during factions.

Unless you made them extremely high, like 10k, it really isn't that difficult to make silver in VvV. Compare farming for a Crimson drop or making silver for a better crimson? Night and day. then the weaker, harder to get crimson is something someone would loot because the winner can use it, while your better VvV one is trash because its useless to the winner.

Based off of what you're saying, it sounds like you don't equip to win anyways. You have the option of equipping some of this nice monster loot going around, but if you're lacking the ability to survive then I see why you'd run a modless imbued suit.

I didn't mean to mislead you, I am merely arguing from the perspective of the group who would suffer from the unfair advantage. I am VvV and its pretty much all I do. Anyone in my guild must be in VvV (unless they are in training). Having artifacts would give ME and other VvVers a clear advantage over non VvVers. I came here because I liked the more competitive aspects of pvp (and have been pleasantly surprised by the RP opportunities which has kept me playing here), adding VvV artifacts useable for only VvV players changes the competitive balance.

I see it as a win/win, but I also see it as completely ********. Artifacts aren't creating a "huge power gap" - See the screen shots above.

I do not agree but if you are right and I am wrong then allowing non VvVers to use artifacts shouldn't be an issue. However if I am right and you are wrong, then giving artifacts to just to one group will shift the balance in favor of VvVers against non- VvVers.

I think you are doing a positive thing trying to get some change that will entice more to play the shard. I hope you consider adapting your perspective to the feedback you are receiving from the majority of dissenters. If you do your poll likely jumps to 80% and a solid majority with a much better chance of getting something done.

-Lore

 

[Tjalle]

Population must be critical if the Tea Party Brigade can't even muster enough people to swing a pvp vote in their favour !

Unlike others we haven´t fished for votes on other forums...

 

[Uvtha]

What I don't understand is, why would anyone be on Siege, and NOT want to be in VvV? Shouldn't the argument that not everyone can get the artifacts be invalid because everyone SHOULD want to be in VvV? Shouldn't Siege be -the- pvp shard?

Not everyone pvps. Not having the safty of town can be very annoying for people who don't want to pvp.

 

[kelmo]

That's the thing. Not many folks believe Siege is so much more than a PvP shard.

 

[Feanaro]

Can any one find any information from the dev team explaining why they left them off siege to start with? Also, any power gap your trying to explain/create has not been taken away by leaving out the arties. People that aren't good at pvp will always get slaughtered by those who know how, with or without the arties.

 

[TheDrAJ]

Last post here (I promise!) - there is no way the developers will make a change with this much controversy.
If you want VvV artis - make them usable by everyone or like it is now by no one.
But I still can not understand the argument that these do not give an advantage. If that is true why are you against them being usable by everyone?
CYA in game!

 

[Uvtha]

People that aren't good at pvp will always get slaughtered by those who know how, with or without the arties.

There are plenty of people between strict pvm noob, and full time pvper. Casual and fringe pvpers (people who are ready to fight back, but don't go looking for a fight, and people who go to defend pvmers) absolutely would be impacted by such items. Again, I am FOR said items, or some kind of pvp earned items anyway, but I just don't think they need or should have special protection.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

Can any one find any information from the dev team explaining why they left them off siege to start with? Also, any power gap your trying to explain/create has not been taken away by leaving out the arties. People that aren't good at pvp will always get slaughtered by those who know how, with or without the arties.

@Kyronix

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall reading that the reason the VvV artifacts were not instated was because there was a majority of SP players stated they did not what them implemented and you respected their input and followed suit.

If VvV artifacts get implemented I would definitely vamp up my toon and play there again. I do agree that they should be useable by anyone, but the one thing I don't believe I have read that should also be added is a timer as well. If player A kills Player B 10x and gets 10 VvV crimmy's he's set for a pretty long time. If you implement a timer it will negate stock piling the Artifacts...

 

[Kyronix]

@Kyronix

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall reading that the reason the VvV artifacts were not instated was because there was a majority of SP players stated they did not what them implemented and you respected their input and followed suit.

If VvV artifacts get implemented I would definitely vamp up my toon and play there again. I do agree that they should be useable by anyone, but the one thing I don't believe I have read that should also be added is a timer as well. If player A kills Player B 10x and gets 10 VvV crimmy's he's set for a pretty long time. If you implement a timer it will negate stock piling the Artifacts...

That is correct.

 

[Bo Bo]

That is correct.

so you think the majority of siege players read these boards? The Bo can see where the misunderstanding came from. And how did you come by this majority? Would love to see the numbers on that.

 

[Uvtha]

so you think the majority of siege players read these boards? The Bo can see where the misunderstanding came from. And how did you come by this majority? Would love to see the numbers on that.

I think there was a poll, and really I think that more than any other shard the community is pretty well represented here.

 

[Igg A Pie]

ill just chime in here real quick. awhile back TRU had said to me that siege is a PK shard, not a PvP shard. i honestly think he is right on that point in many aspects. while all the pvpers love to pvp, your not always gonna find a fight when your lookn for one. when you do, outside of the VvV system, it is 90% 1v1. this is based on the population base of siege. there is not a lot of guild activity like: X guild is doing a spawn in despise and Y guild comes down to raid. its more like, so and so is doing a tmap or farming and is found by a pvper. my point here is that the game dynamics here on siege is much different that that of production shards. it not yew gate ighting or giant field fights between large groups of people. PKn vs PvPn is what siege really is today, heck maybe it has been that way all along, just on a bigger scale with more people and more guilds. most people don't like change but we do have to adapt to the conditions of game play today.

i am not real good as a PK. i am a patheticly average pvper at best. however, i wish i was here on siege when there were so many guilds, you knew could not walk out of guard zone because you would probally find a fight and die if you were not lookn for one and action on the battlefield if you were. i bet it would have been lots of fun. but that was then and this is now. maybe i just assume that the old time pvpers and the new age pvpers are just longing for more action on a dying game. perhaps its just people wanting to relive the old glory days. maybe its just that we are having a hard time accepting what ultima online has become.

the fact of the matter is, the devs need to take a long hard look at siege as a different entity than the production shards. i mean, we have things no other shards have/had. some examples are: we had monster ignore. we get more resist points on crafted armor, no item insurance, we have no VvV arties, we only get one char per account and lets not forget......we have reds allowed access to places such as luna, ilsh, tok and doom. no other shard can say that! they(the devs) have already put systems and ideas in place because siege perilous is....SPECIAL. and i feel we SHOULD to be treated as such. while i understand that new updates and patches are designed to address the masses of the production shards. siege is left with half ass changes and unadressed issues that truly affect what siege is today. in my humble opinion: siege is a small player based shard filled with pvpers, pks and pvmers and crafters wanting more from the game than the powers that be have to offer.

the player base could be so much more and not only the action but the crafting and farming of itmes could be so much better as well. this could all be so if the systems, that make siege what it is are given the proper time and attention. not what i feel are some quick once over fixes because the devs feel the player base on siege is to small to be overly concerned with. on at least two occasions i made posts in threads about things, i though would help game play, population growth and game mechanics. maybe sometime soon i will just start my own thread

 

[Kat]

That's the thing. Not many folks believe Siege is so much more than a PvP shard.

That does not mean that the VvV players should not have the same VvV rewards that other shards have.

And for the record, I never saw, nor did I vote in any such poll about whether the VvV artifacts should be available to Siege players.

 

[kelmo]

For the record, I agree with you. You never did.

 

[Kyronix]

so you think the majority of siege players read these boards? The Bo can see where the misunderstanding came from. And how did you come by this majority? Would love to see the numbers on that.

It was actually something we heard from both the VvV focus group, as well as from the Siege players when we had our in-game M&G there. The hope is to revisit VvV in the future since it's had some time to percolate. A conversation on making this change is certainly welcome.

 

[The Cheapsuit]

I vote to give all reds two siege blessed items that way more would go red and it would bring more action to siege by making more people attackable anywhere. Or some other type of incentive to bring everyone out of hiding...like allow 2 bless items for characters that don't have hiding skill.

 

[Ol MacDeezy]

Last post here (I promise!) - there is no way the developers will make a change with this much controversy.
If you want VvV artis - make them usable by everyone or like it is now by no one.
But I still can not understand the argument that these do not give an advantage. If that is true why are you against them being usable by everyone?
CYA in game!

well they made the change in the first place why not make the change again?

 

[VinnySP]

@Kyronix , at least your listen :]

 

[Kael]

Yesterday I was approached by an up and coming Siege player regarding this poll.

(4:55:56 PM) Adam/Crunch/Crit: I think one of the arguments is that they will lose the need for crafters
(4:56:04 PM) Adam/Crunch/Crit: Yet there is 0% supply for the items new people need to equip
(4:56:07 PM) Adam/Crunch/Crit: You can't go to a vendor and buy anything.
(4:56:18 PM) Varrius: lol yea
(4:56:25 PM) Varrius: i couldn't agree more
(4:56:35 PM) Varrius: i have been running around for an hour trying to find some average armor
(4:56:39 PM) Varrius: and i can't find anything
(4:57:03 PM) Adam/Crunch/Crit: My argument for the VvV artifacts was that they'd be great core suit pieces - I could give you some average armor that would work if we had them.
(4:57:22 PM) Varrius: and the people that do have cursed ornies and all of that stuff dont sell it
(4:57:29 PM) Varrius: they just throw it in their chests forever
(4:57:35 PM) Adam/Crunch/Crit: ^ this

Same Varrius from Atlantic who was on SP years ago running with Diablo and TRU?

 

[Critical Gaming]

Yeah.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

So, just to help me understand more clearly why those of you don't want VvV artifacts on SP. Can any of you explain to me why you would oppose them when there are items like this that are personally blessed running around?



This is not a troll, I am honestly curious as to why. This item to me is OP, but hell, if I got it I would rock it just as hard!

 

[FrejaSP]

He can only personly bless one item. That may be one item to much, but that's an other debat.
It's still different than VvV artifacts, as anyone can use it.

 

[Flavius]

Maybe

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

He can only personly bless one item. That may be one item to much, but that's an other debat.
It's still different than VvV artifacts, as anyone can use it.

I'm afraid that the Bless Deed should in fact be linked into this discussion. You see VvV artifacts will not be insurable, correct? That makes it so if you die they are looted. Now, look at the mods of any of the VvV artifacts and then take a look at the shield above. Which would you rather have?

 

[Ol MacDeezy]

in the end i still think its a load of crap that VvV was altered on siege for a portion of the community and the opposing portion's game experience is altered against their will..........

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

True, but in this case Kyronix and company did some Q&A along with discussing with the VvV panel and came to the conclusion the majority did not want it at that time. I think that was the point of this thread, to re-open the discussion.

 

[TheDrAJ]

I notice for all the people wanting these put in that none of you want them bad enough so that anyone could use them.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

I'm ok with them being used by any VvV participant. I also think that they should start with 50/50 durability, but that's just me..

 

[TheDrAJ]

What if they could only be worn during VvV?

 

[kelmo]

There are plenty of shards that offer vending machine artifacts. This is the only one that does not. Let's keep Siege weird.

 

[virem]

I don't understand why people would even argue that VvV artifacts should be able to be used by people not in VvV. The People in VvV earn them by participating in fights. If you want them join VvV capture some altars and get them.

 

[kelmo]

I do not understand why people want cheap gear to be considered good.

 

[virem]

They don't. They need a reason to participate. That's what VVV is, but it currently has no rewards to make people want to do it on Siege. Artifacts don't make people good, people are either good or bad. What it does do is it removes one of the barriers of entry of the shard.. letting more people ya know... have fun.