NEWS [UO.Com] Combat Changes in Testing

[cazador]

So I'm confused what any of this is actually accomplishing honestly. The OP template is still there. This isn't really balancing anything. Unless I'm really confused as to what's going on, everyone will still play a Parry Mage.


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[cazador]

Sdi should be capped at 40(including Scribe) and -10 for each non magical skill
Alchemy, Parry, Poisoning
And capped at 20 if you have another magic school
Ninja, Bushido, Spell Weaving, Necromancy, Spirit Speak, Chivalry, Animal Taming.

So pure mages would still do the most damage, but have to compromise and lose sdi if they add Parry or Alchemy. Pure Scribe mages would hit like tanks but they give up defense. Is this not the most logical?


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[Revan123]

The loss of focus spec still makes my eye twitch.

I don't mind the increase to 20% SDI for all other PvP casting... but honestly why nerf focus casting? Their should be an advantage to being pure mage or pure necro or pure whatever. I understand the system was old and complicated, and to do a 5% reduction here and there would be a headache to figure out... But why would it be so difficult to just add more things to the focus spec restriction list? You're either 20% or focus... you are not focus of you have 30 points or more in these said skills....

This will just keep alchy parry mages as the one and only choice for casting pvp.

My vote is, keep focus mages and add parry to the restriction list. They will sacrifice defense and spell utility to do a higher amount of damage and be "glass cannons" so-to-speak. Everyone who wishes to be more defensive and have parry would be on par with the other mage builds. There would be more balance, and still a perk to go pure magery only damage.

It didn't need a nerf at all in the first place. The notion that Parry alchy mages were OP offensively is simply wrong. They had exactly what they needed to be able to kill other players with enough skill. What needs to happen is other mages simply need SDI buffs, and they're getting them with the 15 sdi. But focus mages don't need to be changed at all.

 

[Revan123]

Sdi should be capped at 40(including Scribe) and -10 for each non magical skill
Alchemy, Parry, Poisoning
And capped at 20 if you have another magic school
Ninja, Bushido, Spell Weaving, Necromancy, Spirit Speak, Chivalry, Animal Taming.

So pure mages would still do the most damage, but have to compromise and lose sdi if they add Parry or Alchemy. Pure Scribe mages would hit like tanks but they give up defense. Is this not the most logical?


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I disagree. -10 for each non-magical skill? Then people would have 20 or no SDI at all.

 

[cazador]

I disagree. -10 for each non-magical skill? Then no one would have any SDI at all.

Pure mages would. They also don't have defensive help. So a Parry Scribe would still have 30 with the innate 10 from Scribe. Without Scribe you'd be at 20 still.

Pure Mage(Mage Med Eval Resist Scribe Wrestle) 40sdi including 10 innate

Mage Med Eval Resist ninja Scribe Med - 30sdi

Mage Eval Resist Med Parry Wrestle Alchy- 20sdi

I'd even consider adding Healing to the list as well. You give up defense for damage.


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[Aeyko]

As @Bleak got to see first hand mages are still at a disadvantage without parry but a great mage will still prevail. However, we need that tactics lowered to 0 for specials, Bring back focused spec mages as they currently are on live shards and leave the nova's at base dmg increasing with alchemy skill. This is for the greater good of all of pvp.

 

[Great DC]

The problem with focus spec has always been it benefits only magery as a casting template. No other magic school has enough spells to compete with it. Only possible necro/mystic pures involve dexxer skills and the dexxer skill is the primary in it not the magic school. Pure parry mages used to have to sacrifice something for the high defense. Right now they get more offense with no penalties and great defense, which is stupid. I wouldn't mind all schools going back to 15 SDI across the board. But something more would have to be done to bring archers down. Im still in favor of removing the combat bonus LMC from the pvp side. Also remove tactics from specials as its not needed, most dexxers wont take it off anyway cause its their source of damage and mastery ability.

For those that don't know the nova now follows the player with the 1 sec delay so its not at the click location anymore.

 

[cobb]

But something more would have to be done to bring archers down.

Well there is a new update to ranged weapon damage calculation in pvp on TC now

 

[Great DC]

I know I was just on there testing it with bleak, and I don't see much of a change at all. Curse, auto attack with regular bow is 28-32 damage. That's with elemental bow too btw. Archers will still have high DPS and the omen conc from crossbow still hits insanely hard.

 

[Great DC]

The problem with archers is the combination of speed with basically unlimited mana pool. The power creep started with reforging, but back then people sacrificed HP for the high stamina making them easier to kill. Then global loot made them OP by making it much easier to reach 210 stamina without sacrificing HP and giving them even more mana as well. Also the possibilities with the lmc change on armor added to it as well, especially when you factor in lmc combat bonus.

 

[Revan123]

The problem with focus spec has always been it benefits only magery as a casting template. No other magic school has enough spells to compete with it. Only possible necro/mystic pures involve dexxer skills and the dexxer skill is the primary in it not the magic school. Pure parry mages used to have to sacrifice something for the high defense. Right now they get more offense with no penalties and great defense, which is stupid. I wouldn't mind all schools going back to 15 SDI across the board. But something more would have to be done to bring archers down. Im still in favor of removing the combat bonus LMC from the pvp side. Also remove tactics from specials as its not needed, most dexxers wont take it off anyway cause its their source of damage and mastery ability.

For those that don't know the nova now follows the player with the 1 sec delay so its not at the click location anymore.

Did everyone forget why focus mages were made in the first place? The reason focus mages were made, was to make up for not having the benefits of other classes' spells that combine to make mage spells do more damage (like spell plague and corpse skin). The notion that focus spec should be completely removed because other classes can't compete is ridiculous considering the SDI cap increase to 20. I would agree, that other classes needed a buff, because they were easily outdamaged by 30 sdi alchemy/scribe mages, but not with a 20 SDI baseline cap. Now that necros and mystics can have 20 SDI, they can compete damage wise with focus mages- the difference is that mystic and necro spells ALSO benefit groups (spell plague is triggered by other players, corpse skin will increase the damage of other players' hits/spells as well). We NEED to keep focus specs. Otherwise, we will kill pure mages off, the same way they were relatively non-existant prior to the focus.

I don't know if anyone realizes, but I was the one that suggested increasing the sdi cap to 20 ages ago; except back then it wasn't particularly popular. Except the reason I made it, was to make non-focus mages viable again. I was not suggesting that focus mages should ALSO be removed. That just throws the sea-saw in the other direction.

edit: oh and in regard to removing tactics entirely, I am for that. It will help make non-parry characters more viable. With 20 sdi they can possibly fit more defensive abilities on their templates (like bushido, anat + healing, ninja, etc) to make them more viable for group fights.

 

[OREOGL]

I know I was just on there testing it with bleak, and I don't see much of a change at all. Curse, auto attack with regular bow is 28-32 damage. That's with elemental bow too btw. Archers will still have high DPS and the omen conc from crossbow still hits insanely hard.

Yeah only thing that seemed to drop was base damage for auto attacks.

81 damage for corpse EO concussion.

So auto I think was 31 + both hit spells.

I think bleak snagged that sick crossbow from me before he bailed though...

 

[Great DC]

Did everyone forget why focus mages were made in the first place? The reason focus mages were made, was to make up for not having the benefits of other classes' spells that combine to make mage spells do more damage (like spell plague and corpse skin). The notion that focus spec should be completely removed because other classes can't compete is ridiculous considering the SDI cap increase to 20. I would agree, that other classes needed a buff, because they were easily outdamaged by 30 sdi alchemy/scribe mages, but not with a 20 SDI baseline cap. Now that necros and mystics can have 20 SDI, they can compete damage wise with focus mages- the difference is that mystic and necro spells ALSO benefit groups (spell plague is triggered by other players, corpse skin will increase the damage of other players' hits/spells as well). We NEED to keep focus specs. Otherwise, we will kill pure mages off, the same way they were relatively non-existant prior to the focus.

.

That's the whole point Bane. Before people had to sacrifice offense for the great defense that template provided. That's the reason focus spec from the beginning was stupid. Pure mages with parry were born 4 years ago due to that change and no other mage class has been played for the most part since. Only in grinders do the mystic mage and necro mage become even remotely viable. Im all for no focus spec and 15 SDI like it used to be years ago. The high DPS is the reason all this boiled to a head. IM talking about archers as well not just mages. The change in global loot and armor lmc buffs have made it this way. Either the DPS needs to come down some or the HP cap needs to be increased.

 

[Revan123]

That's the whole point Bane. Before people had to sacrifice offense for the great defense that template provided. That's the reason focus spec from the beginning was stupid. Pure mages with parry were born 4 years ago due to that change and no other mage class has been played for the most part since. Only in grinders do the mystic mage and necro mage become even remotely viable. Im all for no focus spec and 15 SDI like it used to be years ago. The high DPS is the reason all this boiled to a head. IM talking about archers as well not just mages. The change in global loot and armor lmc buffs have made it this way. Either the DPS needs to come down some or the HP cap needs to be increased.

I understand where you're coming from, but we can't go back. The gear and templates are too strong defensively to go back to 15 sdi. 30 sdi is hardly enough to kill people now a days. 15 sdi doesn't even come close to cutting it. Gear and templates are just too powerful defensively these days. What I want to do, is allow people variety. I agree, there should be trade-offs to playing overly defensive or offensive templates. But that doesn't mean we need to make defensive templates as useless as offensive ones currently are. What we need to do is make offensive templates as viable as defensive ones. They STILL have better offense than defensive templates, so we don't need to nerf the offense of defensive templates. What we need to do is improve the defense of offensive templates. The problem is that they are SO weak defensively, that they can't survive group fights well enough to be viable. The the only way that I think tank/archer mages are going to become more viable is if they can improve their defenses for group play. Defensive characters like wrestle parry alchy mages already have just the amount of offense that they need to kill people. Nerfing them will only take that away, making them useless offensively. As I said already, tank/archer mages are already better than parry mages at killing people. The issue is that they are so weak defensively that they can't survive group fights. What we need to do is make it easier for non parry mages to survive- and thats why I think removing the need for tactics for specials entirely is important.

Dropping the tactics requirement for secondary abilities from 90 to 60 might save them some skill space, but in the large majority of cases 30 extra skill points isn't going to make a non-viable template viable again. However, if they remove the need for all 90 tactics skill points, it will be much easier for them to add something like healing + anat, bushido (confidence heals), ninja, etc. Adding confidence heals or animal form + mirror images can easily be the difference between the template being viable and non-viable.

 

[Revan123]

Pure mages would. They also don't have defensive help. So a Parry Scribe would still have 30 with the innate 10 from Scribe. Without Scribe you'd be at 20 still.

Pure Mage(Mage Med Eval Resist Scribe Wrestle) 40sdi including 10 innate

Mage Med Eval Resist ninja Scribe Med - 30sdi

Mage Eval Resist Med Parry Wrestle Alchy- 20sdi

I'd even consider adding Healing to the list as well. You give up defense for damage.


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I think the best way to do it is to just keep focus specs, and increase the base sdi to 20. As I explained already, the reason focus specs were made was to make pure mages viable. I know you think they will be because you can still have scribe, but if you remember back to 2010, hardly anyone was playing pure mages until they made the focus spec. Pure mage without focus spec just can't compete damage-wise with all of the mystic and necro abilities.

 

[Great DC]

Im all for removing tactics as I stated several times. I was just strictly talking about the focus spec in that last post. I also think either the lmc bonus to armor should be removed or the combat bonus should be removed, one or the other. This is part of the reason why archers are so OP, if people couldn't just spam specials it would help with the high DPS issue, and make it so mages wouldn't need parry to survive them.

 

[Revan123]

Im all for removing tactics as I stated several times. I was just strictly talking about the focus spec in that last post. I also think either the lmc bonus to armor should be removed or the combat bonus should be removed, one or the other. This is part of the reason why archers are so OP, if people couldn't just spam specials it would help with the high DPS issue, and make it so mages wouldn't need parry to survive them.

I think the LMC bonus of studded armor is good. I think the way studded/bone/plate/stone armor was done could've been handled much more differently, but now that we have it, no sense doing away with it. I don't think Archers are really that OP anymore though. The only issue I have is with their moving shots, and base damage being just a tad too high. I do think the LMC bonus from skills is ridiculous though. It's ridiculous imo that dexxers often have better mana and mana regen than mages.

They need to shoot fast and hit hard though, otherwise they simply can't compete with parry. In 2013 I would've agreed with you, but the game has evolved since then.

 

[Great DC]

Let me get this straight, you say the game has evolved and focus spec should stay, which changed in 2012. But you want tactics reverted to no tactics for specials which was changed in 2007. Just cause its been there a little while doesn't mean it should stay. Its about making it more viable for more templates and more fun for people that want to play all types of things.

 

[cazador]

Let me get this straight, you say the game has evolved and focus spec should stay, which changed in 2012. But you want tactics reverted to no tactics for specials which was changed in 2007. Just cause its been there a little while doesn't mean it should stay. Its about making it more viable for more templates and more fun for people that want to play all types of things.

120 real Tactics 120 real weapon skill and 120 real Magery skill toggle specials while casting?

Means a template would have to be more balanced in order to achieve it
120 Mage
120 Eval
120 Resist
120 Swords
120 Tactics
120 Med
Now Mage Swords and Tactics have to be real 120 to work so it doesn't give much room for a super gimp template. Would make pvp a bit more interesting. A non defensive tank Mage. Give and take. You could technically drop Resist and Med in this instance, but become more of a glass cannon imo. Single dump/mana vamp toon..but if that's your cup of tea. Why not?


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[Revan123]

Let me get this straight, you say the game has evolved and focus spec should stay, which changed in 2012. But you want tactics reverted to no tactics for specials which was changed in 2007. Just cause its been there a little while doesn't mean it should stay. Its about making it more viable for more templates and more fun for people that want to play all types of things.

Yes, exactly. The years don't really matter. I brought up the past to explain how reverting back to 15 sdi caps would revert spell damage back to what it was in 2012- no where near enough to compete with current gear and templates. We can't go back- spell damage wise. The game has evolved too much.

In regards to the tactics change, I agree with your opinion. I believe the tactics requirement should be removed completely. I'm guessing the reason they added it in 2007 was to keep mages from being too overpowered. At that point in the game, dexxers/archers were not nearly as powerful as they are now. They didn't have nearly as much mana, mana regen, they didn't swing as fast, do as much damage per hit, and their templates/armor wasn't as powerful defensively. Mages weren't as powerful as they are today either, but compared to dexxers they were incredibly powerful. They had far more mana and regen than dexxers, and if they were able to use specials on top of what they had, they would be over-powered, and they probably were. I didn't play in those days, so I can only speculate, but logically, it makes sense. The better gear got, the more powerful dexxers/archers got, where as mages were continuously limited by the 15 sdi cap. Today is a different game. Mages are no longer more powerful offensively than dexxers. They already have the ability to play with specials. All removing the tactics requirement would do is make them more competitive, and allow them to increase their survive-ability to competitive standards. Unless of course, players want to remain as a "glass-cannon," and give the extra 90 skill points to something offensive, but that wouldn't make them much more powerful imo as tactics is already useful by increasing damage per hit, so that decision comes with some major trade-offs.

The point is, that today, removing the tactics requirement would allow more versatility among tank/archer mages. They would have the option of trading tactics for another skill that could make their template competitive enough to compete (not without a major trade-off though of course).

 

[Horde Minion]

The balance discussion comes around every few years and even if things get changed the end result is a new/few template(s) everyone will play. The main pvp driven content sometimes gets changed (better loot and resources to lure non pvpers to fel, factions, and lastly VvV.) Isn't the real problem in pvp is what would attract more pvpers? Factions eventually became deserted and now VvV you see the same complaints. Would not the pvp community benefit from a infusion of new players? Reading gen chat night after night most pvpers have a lot of time to type rather than fight. Is there anything you can fight over that would make pvp grow? Has the EM system ever tried adding a 2nd EM to specifically create monthly pvp tournaments for content? Rather than concentrating on balance which will just change the new op templates find out why so few participate in pvp. Figuring a way to control scripting in pvp would be a place to start IMO. Just my 2 cents

 

[Drowy]

I would also keep the 30 SDI cap for Focused Spec, but parry has to be on the restiction list. Otherwise no parry/mage would change his template. I would even say parry cuts your SDI cap to 15. 20 SDI cap for any other template without parry. Have still to test if the new damage change is enough to make it balanced.

 

[Aeyko]

I would also keep the 30 SDI cap for Focused Spec, but parry has to be on the restiction list. Otherwise no parry/mage would change his template. I would even say parry cuts your SDI cap to 15. 20 SDI cap for any other template without parry. Have still to test if the new damage change is enough to make it balanced.

Why would you want to cut SDI to 15 on a parry mage? Have you really played a mage on the field on a shard such as Atlantic? 15 SDI with no other spells but magery will cripple a parry wrestle mage entirely. The point of these changes where to balance todays UO, not cripple mages further. The 20 sdi cap on all casting templates is nice but I believe if you have no other casting ability such as the way it is now, then you should benefit from 30 SDI or 40 with Scribe (It's an additional 100 skill pts after all). I do not understand why SDI is being lowered of focus mages or adding skills to cripple defensive mages but making no effort to cripple 4/6 Chiv, parry, spellweaving, ninja holy fisters. Tell me how this makes any sense? It doesn't. It's another biased change to further cripple people who play mages. I fought in front of @Bleak last night on my tactics fencer mage with 20 sdi against a disarm archer. After 20 minutes of the archer running around houses, running multiple screens away, appling, healing, potion chugging and doing everything to survive, I ultimately hit an ill timed splinter as he was running and finished him off. Had it not been for the splinter, the archer would've ran away successfully like the 20 plus times previously while hitting me 7 and 8 times in a row. During this fiht I redlined this archer several times and the nova would've normally killed this opponent but with the delay and the player knowing to run, the nova did not even make contact 1 out of the 5 times I tried using it. Again, rendering the nova potion entirely useless. The changes I propose are geared towards real pvp to diversify templates and bring back the days where people did not have to play parry mages if they did not want to, I'm not proposing changes to cripple the already limited parry mage as it is. I'm telling you right now, if you put the changes into play with the SDI and the nova's while making no other noticeable differences with 30 or 60 tactics requirements, PVP is being ruined entirely. The people I saw on TC testing these changes are not your pvp audience as I showed Bleak by killing them with no apple or advanced macros set. @Bleak @Mesanna I strongly encourage you guys to review these changes much deeper before these changes go live.

 

[cazador]

The balance discussion comes around every few years and even if things get changed the end result is a new/few template(s) everyone will play. The main pvp driven content sometimes gets changed (better loot and resources to lure non pvpers to fel, factions, and lastly VvV.) Isn't the real problem in pvp is what would attract more pvpers? Factions eventually became deserted and now VvV you see the same complaints. Would not the pvp community benefit from a infusion of new players? Reading gen chat night after night most pvpers have a lot of time to type rather than fight. Is there anything you can fight over that would make pvp grow? Has the EM system ever tried adding a 2nd EM to specifically create monthly pvp tournaments for content? Rather than concentrating on balance which will just change the new op templates find out why so few participate in pvp. Figuring a way to control scripting in pvp would be a place to start IMO. Just my 2 cents

The VvV towns are dead because the rewards suck, if they gave fel bonus every time the city is conquered they would be done. It only takes one-towns to get whatever items/mount you need. Everyone is still VvV. Factions was dead completely. No one joined anymore. As for scripting in PvP....I cannot stress enough, if you use scripts or any type of auto anything you're at a disadvantage. Auto-cure...I'll spam you till those cures hit 0. The only thing UOS or "Hard"UO are good for is scripting trammel and making macros..the only viable Heal bot is with chivalry, and that's because 4/6 is stupid OP survival wise..but that's another subject altogether.


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[Aeyko]

The VvV towns are dead because the rewards suck, if they gave fel bonus every time the city is conquered they would be done. It only takes one-towns to get whatever items/mount you need. Everyone is still VvV. Factions was dead completely. No one joined anymore. As for scripting in PvP....I cannot stress enough, if you use scripts or any type of auto anything you're at a disadvantage. Auto-cure...I'll spam you till those cures hit 0. The only thing UOS or "Hard"UO are good for is scripting trammel and making macros..the only viable Heal bot is with chivalry, and that's because 4/6 is stupid OP survival wise..but that's another subject altogether.


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While I agree the towns are dead, I do not agree that the rewards suck. You can obtain royal forged pardons and multiple cool items if you do towns a lot. However, once people notice the towns are being worked on Atl, people start fighting their. It brings VvV action and I like that. What I do not like is that VvV players are attack able by blues that are not VvV... This should not be allowed without criminal circumstance unless the VvV person is a red (Murderer) or grey (Criminal). Making the VvV player attackable by all players at will is a huge disadvantage to pvp and guilds such as HOT frequently abuse this with 20 plus blues flagging when it's convenient for them. I'm sure most pvper's will agree with me on this statement.

 

[OREOGL]

Why would you want to cut SDI to 15 on a parry mage? Have you really played a mage on the field on a shard such as Atlantic? 15 SDI with no other spells but magery will cripple a parry wrestle mage entirely. The point of these changes where to balance todays UO, not cripple mages further. The 20 sdi cap on all casting templates is nice but I believe if you have no other casting ability such as the way it is now, then you should benefit from 30 SDI or 40 with Scribe (It's an additional 100 skill pts after all). I do not understand why SDI is being lowered of focus mages or adding skills to cripple defensive mages but making no effort to cripple 4/6 Chiv, parry, spellweaving, ninja holy fisters. Tell me how this makes any sense? It doesn't. It's another biased change to further cripple people who play mages. I fought in front of @Bleak last night on my tactics fencer mage with 20 sdi against a disarm archer. After 20 minutes of the archer running around houses, running multiple screens away, appling, healing, potion chugging and doing everything to survive, I ultimately hit an ill timed splinter as he was running and finished him off. Had it not been for the splinter, the archer would've ran away successfully like the 20 plus times previously while hitting me 7 and 8 times in a row. During this fiht I redlined this archer several times and the nova would've normally killed this opponent but with the delay and the player knowing to run, the nova did not even make contact 1 out of the 5 times I tried using it. Again, rendering the nova potion entirely useless. The changes I propose are geared towards real pvp to diversify templates and bring back the days where people did not have to play parry mages if they did not want to, I'm not proposing changes to cripple the already limited parry mage as it is. I'm telling you right now, if you put the changes into play with the SDI and the nova's while making no other noticeable differences with 30 or 60 tactics requirements, PVP is being ruined entirely. The people I saw on TC testing these changes are not your pvp audience as I showed Bleak by killing them with no apple or advanced macros set. @Bleak @Mesanna I strongly encourage you guys to review these changes much deeper before these changes go live.

Yeah, I'd imagine most who wanted the sdi nerf have never played a parry or focused mage.

I can live with the 20 sdi but to further try and nerf parry mages down to 15 sdi is ridiculous as it was when they added it to the focused restriction list.

As far as testing, I was on Odessey and have probably PVPed longer than most people.

I'd ask you that even though I don't play Atlantic, not to be dismissive because I fall outside your normal pvp group.

 

[Giggles]

VvV needs either updated (frequently) rewards/pixel crack or some sort of main pvm objective like the harrower. Each town captured gives you a gem, all gems are used to summon some awesome boss with pro leetsauce loots.

The VvV flagging and all that works fine, the towns are absolutely meaningless as they stand. With some sort of ultimate pvm objective it will give people more of a reason to fight and defend and give their pvm guild members something to do for the ultimate goal. Its also the lure we need to get more people to fel. But luring people to fel is just crazy talk! Not to mention another huge can of worms.

 

[OREOGL]

The VvV towns are dead because the rewards suck, if they gave fel bonus every time the city is conquered they would be done. It only takes one-towns to get whatever items/mount you need. Everyone is still VvV. Factions was dead completely. No one joined anymore. As for scripting in PvP....I cannot stress enough, if you use scripts or any type of auto anything you're at a disadvantage. Auto-cure...I'll spam you till those cures hit 0. The only thing UOS or "Hard"UO are good for is scripting trammel and making macros..the only viable Heal bot is with chivalry, and that's because 4/6 is stupid OP survival wise..but that's another subject altogether.


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Town rewards aren't the only reason they're dead.

It's dead mostly because it's not a sustainable system that only encourages short bursts of pvp.

It was a nice short term "fix" because the rewards were new and desired. But they were scripted and points system flawed.

It needs adjusted again.

 

[Aeyko]

Yeah, I'd imagine most who wanted the sdi nerf have never played a parry or focused mage.

I can live with the 20 sdi but to further try and nerf parry mages down to 15 sdi is ridiculous as it was when they added it to the focused restriction list.

As far as testing, I was on Odessey and have probably PVPed longer than most people.

I'd ask you that even though I don't play Atlantic, not to be dismissive because I fall outside your normal pvp group.

My intention was not to be dismissive at all, if it was taken that way then I apologize. I saw you there attempting to test these changes and adjust this for the greater good. I can respect that. I'm familiar with you from my days on GL and you have pvp'd a long time. I wasn't referring to you in that comment, I was referring to the people that were clearly there trying to bait changes for themselves to weaken players like myself. I even recall being called a "crutch player" when i was on my LP tactics mage and attempted to display my level of spell play versus anyone of the testers there. No one wanted to display their skill to back up crutch player claims. I believe that with the changes chad mentioned on novas and adjusting the tacts requirement to zero with the originally stated archer changes to moving shot etc, that would be a good start. The addition of new hit spells and the adjustments I'm seeing now are coming out of the blue and have no place in Ultima Online's pvp. Again, no disrespect meant @OREOGL

 

[Lord Gandalf]

I vote for:
1- sdi cap 20 for all templates+10sdi for scribe (remove focus spec)
2- keep the ssi as is (Do not get anywhere near it!)
3- remove tactics, or 30/60 both are a very good idea.
4- saving throw update is great (5hci/5dci) not so sure about the 5hpi, i would put 20di or 5ssi instead, but it doesnt matter

Im happy with all the rest, what i loved the most:
-disarm and splinter dont work anymore
-force physical on moving shot (my idea)
-mystic update
-curse+corpse skin update

 

[Drowy]

Why would you want to cut SDI to 15 on a parry mage? Have you really played a mage on the field on a shard such as Atlantic? 15 SDI with no other spells but magery will cripple a parry wrestle mage entirely. The point of these changes where to balance todays UO, not cripple mages further. The 20 sdi cap on all casting templates is nice but I believe if you have no other casting ability such as the way it is now, then you should benefit from 30 SDI or 40 with Scribe (It's an additional 100 skill pts after all). I do not understand why SDI is being lowered of focus mages or adding skills to cripple defensive mages but making no effort to cripple 4/6 Chiv, parry, spellweaving, ninja holy fisters. Tell me how this makes any sense? It doesn't. It's another biased change to further cripple people who play mages. I fought in front of @Bleak last night on my tactics fencer mage with 20 sdi against a disarm archer. After 20 minutes of the archer running around houses, running multiple screens away, appling, healing, potion chugging and doing everything to survive, I ultimately hit an ill timed splinter as he was running and finished him off. Had it not been for the splinter, the archer would've ran away successfully like the 20 plus times previously while hitting me 7 and 8 times in a row. During this fiht I redlined this archer several times and the nova would've normally killed this opponent but with the delay and the player knowing to run, the nova did not even make contact 1 out of the 5 times I tried using it. Again, rendering the nova potion entirely useless. The changes I propose are geared towards real pvp to diversify templates and bring back the days where people did not have to play parry mages if they did not want to, I'm not proposing changes to cripple the already limited parry mage as it is. I'm telling you right now, if you put the changes into play with the SDI and the nova's while making no other noticeable differences with 30 or 60 tactics requirements, PVP is being ruined entirely. The people I saw on TC testing these changes are not your pvp audience as I showed Bleak by killing them with no apple or advanced macros set. @Bleak @Mesanna I strongly encourage you guys to review these changes much deeper before these changes go live.

Well I havent played a mage on a shards such as Atlantic, I dont play there at all. It doesnt matter anyways. Why lowering SDI to 15? What template will actual parry mages play with actual changes or with your proposed changes play?

small pause

Ah yes, still parry/mage. Almost noone will sacrifice their defense, cause their offense is still too good. This is about the diversity of templates. But Its about balancing 1 vs 1. And parry mage as it is with the changes now or proposed is still way superior to dexxer templates. If 4/6 Chive, Parry, SW, Ninja Holy Fisters are really unbalanced, then its possible to look at these, but havent anyone cry about these before.
Your fight only tells me that Tactics/Fence/Mahe seems to be superior to Disarm/Archer. Its not about making it easier to finally kill somebody, but about balancing.

 

[Aeyko]

I'm on TC now (Yew Gate) for anyone looking to test and give feedback. I will only be discussing the changes that are listed in the current notes.

Well I havent played a mage on a shards such as Atlantic, I dont play there at all. It doesnt matter anyways. Why lowering SDI to 15? What template will actual parry mages play with actual changes or with your proposed changes play?

small pause

Ah yes, still parry/mage. Almost noone will sacrifice their defense, cause their offense is still too good. This is about the diversity of templates. But Its about balancing 1 vs 1. And parry mage as it is with the changes now or proposed is still way superior to dexxer templates. If 4/6 Chive, Parry, SW, Ninja Holy Fisters are really unbalanced, then its possible to look at these, but havent anyone cry about these before.
Your fight only tells me that Tactics/Fence/Mahe seems to be superior to Disarm/Archer. Its not about making it easier to finally kill somebody, but about balancing.

1. if you do not play a pvp mage you should not be attempting to weaken them
2. It does matter if you play on a shard such as Atlantic since that is the most advanced pvp shard at the moment
3. Lowering tactics to 0 with the archery changes will allow some diveristy to templates and not everyone will have to play parry mages any longer
4. A mages offense is still not "too good" in comparison to any advanced dexer template to date
5. If you haven't heard the cries of 4/6 being OP then you have had your head under a rock
6. My fight should tell you that a player like myself is superior in those moments 1v1, another player would've died atleast 10 times in that same fight. I understand positioning and when to heal as opposed to when to go offensive, even when being hit 90% of the time for 35 dmg frim AI's or dmg from being mortaled or dmg from being para'd. You see the arsenal on a dexer is much easier than that on a mage. In order to get 35 hp dmg I have to cast FS which does 40 hp plus at times currently. That spell takes much longer than 2 AI's can hit me for 70 dmg.

In conclusion, this is another instance of a player that does not understand the game fully attempting to make changes that will further cripple a template that they simply do not like, nothing more.

 

[Bleak]

I'm on TC now (Yew Gate) for anyone looking to test and give feedback. I will only be discussing the changes that are listed in the current notes. I will be here for about an hour and I will also be on later this evening if you miss me.

 

[Lord Frodo]

1. if you do not play a pvp mage you should not be attempting to weaken them

Why? Everybody that posts on this board has a right to their opinion no matter what you think.
Anybody that plays UO has a right to their opinion no matter what you think.
Maybe he thinks they are OP.
I better stop now before I get another infraction.
@Drowy you are welcome to post any opinion you want no matter what some people may say, they DO NOT OWN UO or STRATICS and your input is just as valuable as theirs.

 

[Drowy]

1. if you do not play a pvp mage you should not be attempting to weaken them
2. It does matter if you play on a shard such as Atlantic since that is the most advanced pvp shard at the moment
3. Lowering tactics to 0 with the archery changes will allow some diveristy to templates and not everyone will have to play parry mages any longer
4. A mages offense is still not "too good" in comparison to any advanced dexer template to date
5. If you haven't heard the cries of 4/6 being OP then you have had your head under a rock
6. My fight should tell you that a player like myself is superior in those moments 1v1, another player would've died atleast 10 times in that same fight. I understand positioning and when to heal as opposed to when to go offensive, even when being hit 90% of the time for 35 dmg frim AI's or dmg from being mortaled or dmg from being para'd. You see the arsenal on a dexer is much easier than that on a mage. In order to get 35 hp dmg I have to cast FS which does 40 hp plus at times currently. That spell takes much longer than 2 AI's can hit me for 70 dmg.

In conclusion, this is another instance of a player that does not understand the game fully attempting to make changes that will further cripple a template that they simply do not like, nothing more.

1. I never said I dont play a mage, I do. Even if I wouldnt I have an argument why. Your point is just ridiculous.
2. So only Atlantic players have the most advanced pvp knowledge? So if I am not playing Atlantic, I should not try to balance pvp? This is ridiculous as well.
3. These 2 changes wont change much.
4. You didnt get what i meant. If a mage keeps parry cause his damage is still too good, it is for sure meant to any other mage template without parry.
5. Oh well. I heard the crying about 4/6 from some people. Maybe it even is. But also people cried about Alchemy being OP. So which 4/6 template is superior to a parry/mage as it is now?
6. So your story wasnt about any balancing, but just a show off?!

 

[Aeyko]

Why? Everybody that posts on this board has a right to their opinion no matter what you think.
Anybody that plays UO has a right to their opinion no matter what you think.
Maybe he thinks they are OP.
I better stop now before I get another infraction.
@Drowy you are welcome to post any opinion you want no matter what some people may say, they DO NOT OWN UO or STRATICS and your input is just as valuable as theirs.

I have seen you ranting on these forums angrily and not showing up to ONE testing on TC. Why is that? Well primarily because much like @Drowy you do not have a dog in the fight. You're chanting these changes and not truly knowing what they mean. Explain this to me... How can you have an opinion on pvp changes, IF YOU DO NOT TRULY PVP?

Wait, I have an opinion because I pvp on Test Center.... Notice my sarcasm that Test Center NEVER has ONE pvper on that shard. EVERY other shard has at most 6 to 10 total pvpers at any given time, none of which have evolved past average game play. Again, you Ford Focus drivers trying to tell the Ferrari driver what he needs to do to improve his track time. Seriously, that is the exact case here. You sit back, offer opinions based solely on your feelings with NO actual pvp involved.

In conclusion, you can have your opinion all you'd like. I have an opinion on Audi vs BMW but I am not qualified to discuss changes to either company's product line, even though I own one of each. Stay in your lane Frodo.

 

[drcossack]

5. Oh well. I heard the crying about 4/6 from some people. Maybe it even is. But also people cried about Alchemy being OP. So which 4/6 template is superior to a parry/mage as it is now?

4/6 Chiv isn't OP though. Annoying? Yes. Hard to kill 1v1? Yup, but players using Chiv were always a tough kill. If anything, some of the spells (in particular Close Wounds, Remove Curse, Cleanse by Fire) could be slowed down, but Chiv by itself isn't the problem. It's everything that can go with it - Spellweaving, weapon skills, etc.

Dropping the Parry Mage's SDI to 20% will cut damage by 3-4 points. It's a noticeable difference, but they'll still have the ability to run the skills they can currently: Alchemy, Healing, the occasional Inscribe. They'll lose some damage but keep their defense, making it difficult for a dexer to kill them 1v1.

 

[Lord Frodo]

I have seen you ranting on these forums angrily and not showing up to ONE testing on TC. Why is that? Well primarily because much like @Drowy you do not have a dog in the fight. You're chanting these changes and not truly knowing what they mean. Explain this to me... How can you have an opinion on pvp changes, IF YOU DO NOT TRULY PVP?

Wait, I have an opinion because I pvp on Test Center.... Notice my sarcasm that Test Center NEVER has ONE pvper on that shard. EVERY other shard has at most 6 to 10 total pvpers at any given time, none of which have evolved past average game play. Again, you Ford Focus drivers trying to tell the Ferrari driver what he needs to do to improve his track time. Seriously, that is the exact case here. You sit back, offer opinions based solely on your feelings with NO actual pvp involved.

In conclusion, you can have your opinion all you'd like. I have an opinion on Audi vs BMW but I am not qualified to discuss changes to either company's product line, even though I own one of each. Stay in your lane Frodo.

OMG I almost fell out of my chair laughing so hard at this, PRICELESS. Seriously do you think you board PvP skills scare me one little bit, just in case you do not know the answer, NO.
#1 YOU DO NOT OWN UO
#2 YOU DO NOT OWN STRATICS
YOU HAVE ZERO RIGHT TO TELL ANYBODY WHAT THEY MAY OR MAY NOT POST HERE.

 

[Aeyko]

OMG I almost fell out of my chair laughing so hard at this, PRICELESS. Seriously do you think you board PvP skills scare me one little bit, just in case you do not know the answer, NO.
#1 YOU DO NOT OWN UO
#2 YOU DO NOT OWN STRATICS
YOU HAVE ZERO RIGHT TO TELL ANYBODY WHAT THEY MAY OR MAY NOT POST HERE.

You can post whatever you'd like to post, I'm praying that not ONE person takes your idiotic opinion into consideration. You angrily state no facts and do nothing. You don't have to be afraid of anything, but don't make the mistake of stepping into felluca with that big mouth of yours. I'll show you that even trying your best to nerf our pvp, I'll still turn your screen grey in record time.

I'm prepared for the angry, I CAN POST WHATEVER I'D LIKE EVEN IF I COULDN'T FIGHT MY WAY OUT OF A PAPER SACK WITH SCISSORS IN MY HANDS... RAWR!

You mad bro?

 

[Horde Minion]

VvV needs either updated (frequently) rewards/pixel crack or some sort of main pvm objective like the harrower. Each town captured gives you a gem, all gems are used to summon some awesome boss with pro leetsauce loots.

The VvV flagging and all that works fine, the towns are absolutely meaningless as they stand. With some sort of ultimate pvm objective it will give people more of a reason to fight and defend and give their pvm guild members something to do for the ultimate goal. Its also the lure we need to get more people to fel. But luring people to fel is just crazy talk! Not to mention another huge can of worms.

There is not a part of the game that would not be better with frequent updates, but uo team is small so I doubt its even possible. What would pvpers like to fight for? I mean is there anything that would worthwhile?

 

[Lord Frodo]

You can post whatever you'd like to post, I'm praying that not ONE person takes your idiotic opinion into consideration. You angrily state no facts and do nothing. You don't have to be afraid of anything, but don't make the mistake of stepping into felluca with that big mouth of yours. I'll show you that even trying your best to nerf our pvp, I'll still turn your screen grey in record time.

I'm prepared for the angry, I CAN POST WHATEVER I'D LIKE EVEN IF I COULDN'T FIGHT MY WAY OUT OF A PAPER SACK WITH SCISSORS IN MY HANDS... RAWR!

You mad bro?

I am far from being MAD as you want to think you are making me. You are to funny.

 

[Aeyko]

I am far from being MAD as you want to think you are making me. You are to funny.

Now that we've addressed the town crier. I hope this can get back to the changes and reasons behind said changes. @Bleak I am in the office during the day but would like to catch up with you this evening on TC to tester new weapons as well as discuss more in depth changes. Thank you for taking the time to test these thoroughly and i truly hope you're taking the correct feedback into consideration.

 

[Giggles]

You guys are giving me ulcers..... for the 2379172734521st time...

Keep on topic please

 

[Revan123]

I would also keep the 30 SDI cap for Focused Spec, but parry has to be on the restiction list. Otherwise no parry/mage would change his template. I would even say parry cuts your SDI cap to 15. 20 SDI cap for any other template without parry. Have still to test if the new damage change is enough to make it balanced.

Removing parry for the focus mage spec does NOT get rid of parry. Dexxers/Archers are still going to hit hard, people are still going to want to play with parry. Parry does NOT need to be added to the focus spec list. If people want to play focus parry mages, they should be allowed. If you add parry to the focus spec list, all people are going to do is play mystic parry mages or necro parry mages. I can promise you that. You can't force people to play non-parry characters. The best thing you can do is give people the incentive to play non-parry characters, by giving them things like a zero tactics requirement for specials so they have more versatility with their templates. Tank/Archer mages already hit much harder than parry mages, we do not need to reduce the offense of focus mages. Killing people with 30 sdi and alchemy/scribe is already difficult enough on a parry mage. Nerfing their damage will only make Archers/Dexxers more OP again.

We have this unfortunate Rock, Scissors, Paper aspect to pvp right now where Parry mages > Archers/Dexxers > Archer/Tank mages > Parry mages. See how it goes full circle? I would like to diminish this aspect to pvp somehow, but nerfing parry mage damage does not fix it. It just makes it worse.

 

[Lord Frodo]

You guys are giving me ulcers..... for the 2379172734521st time...

Keep on topic please

BUT BUT BUT LOL

 

[Aeyko]

You guys are giving me ulcers..... for the 2379172734521st time...

Keep on topic please

Hey now, I did my best in diverting the negative back towards the changes in my last post

Removing parry for the focus mage spec does NOT get rid of parry. Dexxers/Archers are still going to hit hard, people are still going to want to play with parry. Parry does NOT need to be added to the focus spec list. If people want to play focus parry mages, they should be allowed. If you add parry to the focus spec list, all people are going to do is play mystic parry mages or necro parry mages. I can promise you that. You can't force people to play non-parry characters. The best thing you can do is give people the incentive to play non-parry characters, by giving them things like a zero tactics requirement for specials so they have more versatility with their templates. Tank/Archer mages already hit much harder than parry mages, we do not need to reduce the offense of focus mages. Killing people with 30 sdi and alchemy/scribe is already difficult enough on a parry mage. Nerfing their damage will only make Archers/Dexxers more OP again.

We have this unfortunate Rock, Scissors, Paper aspect to pvp right now where Parry mages > Archers/Dexxers > Archer/Tank mages > Parry mages. See how it goes full circle? I would like to diminish this aspect to pvp somehow, but nerfing parry mage damage does not fix it. It just makes it worse.

You're making excellent points here. Focused spec list needs no new updates, tampering with that is just asking for more issues. As I have been preaching, ZERO tactics for specials, keep initial archer changes, add dmg buffs for alchemy to Nova's limiting them to alchemy users like conflags and for gods sake do not implement these new hit spells.

 

[Giggles]

So let me do my best to explain the whole focus/alchy/parry thing from my own perspective as a pvper.

I am not being fair about commenting about any of this stuff from a duelist 1v1 perspective. Dueling isn’t my thing and I much prefer field fighting. I fight in the field outnumbered, even numbers, and on yes even zerging. My take on all builds and their playstyle is from more of a group vs group perspective.

First, Pure mage focus damage should not be nerfed and here is why… all dexy classes have the ability to overload their skill points for higher damage at the cost of survivability. They sacrifice resist, healing, and bushido just to come in and do crazy hybrid super damage right? So image that crazy hybrid super damage coupled with butt loads of survivability… that would be unbalanced.

That is the current issue with the 4/6 chiv dudes. They deal a significant amount of damage, and when you are trying to kill them? Yeah good luck. 210 stam archers?? Same thing, 2 second heals, high damage output. Focus parry alchy mages? Yup again high damage output with a decent amount of survivability.

In my idea of pvp balance, no build should have both. You should either be a well-rounded build with mediocre damage and survivability… or you should be a tank with very little damage output, or you should be a crazy damage dealing beast with very little survivability. When you couple both benefits into one build that is when the “OP” stigma starts getting slammed around.
That is why I feel they should leave focus damage alone but reduce the survivability by adding parry to the restriction list. You shouldn’t be able to have the best of both worlds. But I am also hesitant to say that because by my previous examples of other builds who are not balanced, mages would be at a new disadvantage.

If you are wanting to balance pvp several builds need to be looked at and adjusted. But please do not take away pure mage focus casting damage.

 

[Turles (UHOH)]

Very nicely said Giggles It shouldn't be both ways an sadly a lot of the templates are.

 

[cazador]

Just make shields disarmable again...lower moving shot damage and have it so it doesn't take mana unless it hits 75% of element 25% physical base shots still work the same.


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[DJAd]

I'm on TC now (Yew Gate) for anyone looking to test and give feedback. I will only be discussing the changes that are listed in the current notes. I will be here for about an hour and I will also be on later this evening if you miss me.

Rocking the leather cap like a boss.