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NEWS [UO.Com] Combat Changes in Testing

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Aeyko

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Ok, then when you say to change something or not to change something.. how about you give a reason why like everyone else. Otherwise you look foolish and wonder why people don't take you seriously.
Man, the moment that PVM got affected, the tune changed a lot... That's quite funny as they have such an opinion on our area of the game but do not want our input on the area of the game that we do not play.

Let's openly discuss these OP slayer killer archers and throwers... The precious pvm events where a majority of these guys make cash will suffer if these changes are made. If a super nova's dmg is harsh in PVP then 200 plus HP damage every 1.25 seconds from a thrower in pvm should really be focused upon.
 

Ender

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Man, the moment that PVM got affected, the tune changed a lot... That's quite funny as they have such an opinion on our area of the game but do not want our input on the area of the game that we do not play.

Let's openly discuss these OP slayer killer archers and throwers... The precious pvm events where a majority of these guys make cash will suffer if these changes are made. If a super nova's dmg is harsh in PVP then 200 plus HP damage every 1.25 seconds from a thrower in pvm should really be focused upon.
I don't think that's anywhere near as common as you think. I don't give a **** what changes they make to PvP, I'll let others comment on those. When it starts to affect PvM (like the swing speed change will, if it stays), then obviously people that don't PvP will comment on it.
 

Kiss Of Death

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Nah aekyo bro I don't agree. Pvp wise now the moving shots issue are fixed by dealing phys dmg. Pvm wise and pvp wise the ssi change is Not requested by anyone. I don't understand. At this point nerf all gdragons by 50% hp ... It would be a non sense too right? When ppl do EM events on archers or throwers u go with 130/140 hp, and do the best to make good dmg on boss. A tamer says all guard me and that's it... Sometimes word of death. There is no need to touch the ssi...
 

Old Vet Back Again

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I would think that the devs have enough common sense to know who pvps and who doesn't. Just ignore them. PvMers like to troll just as much as PvPers.
 

Aeyko

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I would think that the devs have enough common sense to know who pvps and who doesn't. Just ignore them. PvMers like to troll just as much as PvPers.
And we have an awful lot of PvM trolls in the super nova and pvp changes thread. I mean if we're going to start screwing the game up, then let's screw it up for everyone and not just the people that pvp... You know, the part of the economy where a majority of that overpriced uber expensive farmed armor, jewelry and weapons go. I'm actually not trolling, I'm proposing that these "nerfs" take place towards the people that want our game play nerfed as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander they say. Let's make UO great again!
 

Great DC

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Remove tactics needed for specials, there is already tradeoffs for not having tactics.
First trade off is you deal much less damage without tactics, very few weapons will be able to hit capped AI damage without it.
Second trade off is without tactics they'll lose mastery advantages, which means no Warrior's gift or other abilities it give you.

Im also not in favor of the SSI change. Only ranged weapons are taking advantage of the current setup on live shards.
Melee dexxers take more a hit on this then ranged players and melee is already dead in pvp, we need to bring melee back into PvP.
I say just cap ranged weps at 1.5 or raise their base swing a notch or two to prevent 1.25. The only trade off that should be in dexxer templates is ranged should be picked just for extra tiles not for tiles and damage.

Im ok with the removal of focus spec cause it makes all classes of magic viable in PvP again instead of just pure mages.

I mean we are trying to make more templates come back to PvP right.
 

CovenantX

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  • Removing the Tactics requirements on weapon special moves. This change brings more diversity to template selection by removing the skill points required to execute weapon special moves. It is our philosophy that skill investment is a necessary tradeoff to reap derived skill benefits. As such, Tactics should be a requirement for the use of weapon special moves just like Animal Lore is required to control tamed pets and Chivalry is required to use paladin abilities. The current change is a compromise which allows access to weapon special moves at 30 Tactics and 30 Weapon Skill for primary moves and 60 Tactics and 60 Weapon Skill for secondary moves.

This change will NOT bring diversity... requiring 30-60 tactics is too much, considering half the specials gain almost 0 bonus from tactics in the first place.

People don't use Disarm for the "damage" it does.... they use it so they can hit with their following attacks more easily (utility)
Bleed is used for Interrupts and to prevent bandages from healing as much (utility)
Nervestrike: requires Bushido & weapon skill (also requires Tactics because this requirement was always stupid as hell).

Crushing Blow = Much less effective without tactics
Armor Ignore = 35 damage is only possible without tactics if you use a very slow/high-base-damage weapon AND have a mid-high-level damage increase on your suit.

Dexers require too many skills to begin with. this is why there are so few dexer templates out there without archery.

NS/DS template would benefit a little without needing tactics, because the damage they do, is almost completely UNAFFECTED by Tactics in the first place, why the hell would it be required?

I've been over this more than enough times to explain this to a child kindergarten. it shouldn't be hard to understand.


Why can you play a Mage without Eval-int and get Fields, Mind-blast, Poison, Summons, Heals, & Cures. but you can't play a dexer with a skill that doesn't give you damage increase? C'mon...

The focus spec thing in 12/13/2016 update, was almost perfect. all it needed, was to add a few more skills to the list, so that they wouldn't be 30-25 SDI (5% is only 1-2 points of damage on most/all spells btw) Those skills would have been Healing, Anatomy, Alchemy (at -5% SDI each) minimum cap at 20.

This means, the only possible way for those templates to go from 20% back up to 30% SDI would be to add scribe for the 10% bonus, which means they'd give up something to achieve that.
Second, the only exception(s) which would be a 40% SDI template (Glass Cannon - using a mage-weapon) Magery, Eval, Resist, Scribe, *Poisoning, Med, Hiding, Tracking, detect (any skill that doesn't apply a -5% SDI penalty)

Mage Weapons - Link the disarm immunity timer to weapon skill = 100+ for 10-15 seconds 15 melee/ 10 ranged (as listed) and have the immunity at 5 seconds for those with lower than 100 weapon skill (ie Swords, Fencing, Macing, Archery, & Throwing) because you can't have people running around with mage-weapons without a slightly higher vulnerability to dexers.

Like OMG it was sooo damn close to being perfect, it's incredibly disappointing to see the turns taken in the last 2 days.
 

virem

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Magery, Eval, Resist, Scribe, *Poisoning, Med, Hiding, Tracking, detect (any skill that doesn't apply a -5% SDI penalty)
that's quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read. Every filler skill you just listed is useless. The patch wasn't at all close to perfect, you just thought it was.
 

CovenantX

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that's quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read. Every filler skill you just listed is useless. The patch wasn't at all close to perfect, you just thought it was.
Useless? I guess you're implying people can't pvp with scribe, or poisoning, or hiding ? let's remove JoAT from tracking and see how many pick up 20 tracking for that?

LOL, it wasn't perfect for you because your template would have lost 5% SDI from weapon-skill being added to the -5% penalty skill list... (are you telling me, because of 5% SDI you won't be able to kill anyone?) also- incase you didn't notice, every template being played right now, would go down to 20% SDI from 30...

Get less biased, and try and imagine how this game would be when you do 3-5 less damage with your Explo/FS/AI/Nova combo... because of a -5% (-10% (lol alchemy)) less spell damage.... you need a lot of improvement man. just sayin'
 

Great DC

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Did the nova nerf disappear???!!

If it did then the healing parry alchemy mage will stay as the top dog template in UO and nothing will change.
 

leet

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LMAO just like everything the PvPers whine about with NO CONSIDERATION to the MAJORITY of the UO player base. Give me a break how long you been playing UO and how many times has UO used the excuse to try and balance PvP, it is a JOKE. Guess we should all take Mesanna's advice and win at all costs.
Frodo u need to calm down man, no pvpers want this change and if u would take time to read some threads instead of jumping to conclusions we are as confused about it as everyone else.
 

drcossack

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My points were short and concise position statements. I can give as much or little reason to my positions as I'd like, as can you or anyone else.

How about when someone disagrees with you, you tell them why rather making personal attacks like this one? It seems like whenever someone interjects into a conversation and you don't like it, you make it personal. This needs to stop ASAP.
But you didn't SAY why, which is what Paith commented on. Your exact words:

Do not make any changes to how SSI currently works in-game.

Do not nerf moving shot... leave it completely as is.

Keep tactics requirement as is.

Change Saving Throw to the first version of Warriror's Gifts with +15 HPI over the cap.

Leave SDI cap for PVP as is.
Why should they be left as is, and why should the +15 HP increase that goes overcap (which is dumb from a pvp standpoint, as I explained when it was first introduced) be left in? I'm not a fan of the +5 HP overcap either, but it's still A LOT more reasonable than +15 was.

Your moving shot argument, as I recall, was that it was used in pvm. I said why it wasn't: Armor Ignore, auto-attacks, and Lightning Strike (if Bushido) are MUCH better options, and that there are literally NO situations where you'll want to use Moving Shot, even if monsters run from you (and if they do, AI/auto-attack/LS will kill them.)

Tactics: Ultimately, this doesn't affect pvm if it's dropped, since NOBODY in a pvm setting is going to remove the skill due to it affecting damage. Sure, you'll get to do specials without tactics, but It's not worth the trade-off (which is the damage reduction) to drop tactics when you're killing monsters.

SDI cap: It's part of the problem. 25% focused spec wasn't bad, and it's a mere 1-2 points off of spells. I didn't completely HATE the 20% cap, but it's still a noticeable difference in how much damage you do, especially compared to the damage at 30%. Honestly, I'd be ok with a focused caster (before Inscription bonus, if applicable) having 25% SDI, with hybrids like Mystic/Spellweaver being capped at 20%.
 

virem

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Useless? I guess you're implying people can't pvp with scribe, or poisoning, or hiding ? let's remove JoAT from tracking and see how many pick up 20 tracking for that?

LOL, it wasn't perfect for you because your template would have lost 5% SDI from weapon-skill being added to the -5% penalty skill list... (are you telling me, because of 5% SDI you won't be able to kill anyone?) also- incase you didn't notice, every template being played right now, would go down to 20% SDI from 30...

Get less biased, and try and imagine how this game would be when you do 3-5 less damage with your Explo/FS/AI/Nova combo... because of a -5% (-10% (lol alchemy)) less spell damage.... you need a lot of improvement man. just sayin'
I don't have a "template" I am not biased at all. I think it's ridiculous to offer only one character that can get 40 SDI, and the only way to do it is with 400 skill points of worthless skill.
 

Kiss Of Death

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Remove tactics needed for specials, there is already tradeoffs for not having tactics.
First trade off is you deal much less damage without tactics, very few weapons will be able to hit capped AI damage without it.
Second trade off is without tactics they'll lose mastery advantages, which means no Warrior's gift or other abilities it give you.

Im also not in favor of the SSI change. Only ranged weapons are taking advantage of the current setup on live shards.
Melee dexxers take more a hit on this then ranged players and melee is already dead in pvp, we need to bring melee back into PvP.
I say just cap ranged weps at 1.5 or raise their base swing a notch or two to prevent 1.25. The only trade off that should be in dexxer templates is ranged should be picked just for extra tiles not for tiles and damage.

Im ok with the removal of focus spec cause it makes all classes of magic viable in PvP again instead of just pure mages.

I mean we are trying to make more templates come back to PvP right.
U say something logical sometimes. Good!! I agree with u for once!!
 

Old Vet Back Again

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Im ok with the removal of focus spec cause it makes all classes of magic viable in PvP again instead of just pure mages.
But it really doesn't if you think about it. Mystics might become a more played template in dungeon based pvp, but open field it's still going to be an alchy parry mage. If you think about it, it actually restricts just as much as it did before. There will be little to no changes in the current templates being run.
 

Great DC

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U say something logical sometimes. Good!! I agree with u for once!!
Im glad to see you agree with me. Its the same stance I've had for these changes since the beginning though. You just disliked me bashing on the nova pot which is more of a problem. If you could only see that issue I would agree with you.
 

CovenantX

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I don't have a "template" I am not biased at all. I think it's ridiculous to offer only one character that can get 40 SDI, and the only way to do it is with 400 skill points of worthless skill.
It's less ridiculous than offering 1 skill supernova potions too, except EVERYONE IS USING THEM... the 40% SDI template exists right now, guess what? NO ONE IS USING IT.

you're not willing to take a -5% SDI hit on one of your characters, so that diversity comes back? This is the problem with some of you guys, Balance to you, is nerf everything I don't use. and keep what I do use the same, or buff it more.

That is not balance, all it would create is a transition from whatever is OP right now (Archers & Alchy-Parry-mages) to whatever becomes clearly op in the next publish. if you want to play a Healing-Alchy-Parry-Mage. you should get a -10% (or more) SDI penalty for being overly-defensive.... you don't come here and pancake and complain everyone is hard to kill because they're playing the same thing you are. It doesn't work that way.
 

Great DC

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But it really doesn't if you think about it. Mystics might become a more played template in dungeon based pvp, but open field it's still going to be an alchy parry mage. If you think about it, it actually restricts just as much as it did before. There will be little to no changes in the current templates being run.
How is that? The overpowering SDI of pure mages has be brought down to match all other casting templates. Therefore mystics and or necro mages will deal same damage against it with a much bigger pool of spells to choose from. There should be no reason to choose pure templates over any other casting template. People should have the choice to play anything they want and have a standing chance to win a fight. I cant wait to smash pure mages with a mystic mage again.
 

virem

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It's less ridiculous than offering 1 skill supernova potions too, except EVERYONE IS USING THEM... the 40% SDI template exists right now, guess what? NO ONE IS USING IT.

you're not willing to take a -5% SDI hit on one of your characters, so that diversity comes back? This is the problem with some of you guys, Balance to you, is nerf everything I don't use. and keep what I do use the same, or buff it more.

That is not balance, all it would create is a transition from whatever is OP right now (Archers & Alchy-Parry-mages) to whatever becomes clearly op in the next publish. if you want to play a Healing-Alchy-Parry-Mage. you should get a -10% (or more) SDI penalty for being overly-defensive.... you don't come here and ***** and complain everyone is hard to kill because they're playing the same thing you are. It doesn't work that way.
I have never complained that anyone is hard to kill, ever. And every player in the game is using 40 SDI template right now. You think people don't have scribe right now?
 

virem

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But it really doesn't if you think about it. Mystics might become a more played template in dungeon based pvp, but open field it's still going to be an alchy parry mage. If you think about it, it actually restricts just as much as it did before. There will be little to no changes in the current templates being run.
Actually, if the changes go in like this with 20 SDI on all classes, I would guess close to no one will play a parry mage. There's going to be no diversity, but it won't be parry mages.
 

drcossack

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I have never complained that anyone is hard to kill, ever. And every player in the game is using 40 SDI template right now. You think people don't have scribe right now?
They don't have Inscribe. You know it's easy to tell, right? Would you like me to tell you how?
 

CovenantX

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I have never complained that anyone is hard to kill, ever. And every player in the game is using 40 SDI template right now. You think people don't have scribe right now?
Most people are 30 SDI. and they choose alchemy over scribe, because novas deal MORE damage than you could get out of a single combo with scribe alone....

Arkane = scribe
Beast = Scribe
I'm sure there are a few others, but um... They're PARRY MAGES..... those templates WONT BE 40% SDI if the 12/13/2016 updates were brought back and tweaked accordingly.

the bigger picture man... everyone says you gotta see the "bigger picture" and no one f***ing does, I love it.
 

CovenantX

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Actually, if the changes go in like this with 20 SDI on all classes, I would guess close to no one will play a parry mage. There's going to be no diversity, but it won't be parry mages.
That's why I ended up liking the new Focus spec list with -5% penalty skills more than just taking everyone down to the same (20%) SDI level... you actually give up 5% damage pretty much for every defensive skill you add..

you give up Spell damage for every skill that increases your "weapon-based" damage. there was a small trade-off with each skill (almost every skill) obviously the exceptions are very few, and the template(s) with those very few exception skills aren't being used right now anyway, especially won't be used much with a mage-weapon.
 

virem

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Most people are 30 SDI. and they choose alchemy over scribe, because novas deal MORE damage than you could get out of a single combo with scribe alone....

Arkane = scribe
Beast = Scribe
I'm sure there are a few others, but um... They're PARRY MAGES..... those templates WONT BE 40% SDI if the 12/13/2016 updates were brought back and tweaked accordingly.

the bigger picture man... everyone says you gotta see the "bigger picture" and no one f***ing does, I love it.
You realize like... 90% of parry mages have all three alchy scribe and parry, right?

Only ones that don't have scribe are healing mages, and there's not a lot of those.
 

CovenantX

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You realize like... 90% of parry mages have all three alchy scribe and parry, right?

Only ones that don't have scribe are healing mages, and there's not a lot of those.
The ones with healing, don't have scribe =X and few (by that I mean 0) have poisoning... I know. what does it mean?

And, those who have parry = -5% SDI (no longer being 40 sdi with scribe) those who have alchemy another -5% SDI back down to 30% SDI WITH scribe.... I hope you can see where I'm going, there's really not many ways to explain this.

Edit: This is using the same "Focus spec" update from 12/13/2016*. (Aka, the "best" update so far)
 
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Old Vet Back Again

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Actually, if the changes go in like this with 20 SDI on all classes, I would guess close to no one will play a parry mage. There's going to be no diversity, but it won't be parry mages.
I'm going to try and remain untied in the overall argument to balance pvp properly, but I strongly disagree and we will just leave it at that.
 

MalagAste

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And, with the exception of the SSI change, which EVERYONE agrees is stupid, what about any of the proposed changes on TC1 has had any effect on pvm? If you mean the tactics removal: no. Doing as much damage as possible is still the goal in pvm, so nobody's going to remove it from their pvm characters.

I didn't test the damage of Armor Ignore w/no tactics yesterday (rather, I couldn't, due to doing my tests on a live shard), but my auto-attacks in a pvm setting (100 DI from items, double slayer) did far less than they normally did. I can get triple-digit damage just from 2 Super Slayers @ 120/120. At 120/0 Tactics, I was struggling to get out of the low 90's with my auto-attacks. My AI damage would take a similar hit, which I didn't need to test: My Anatomy-less Sampire only averages about 156 damage at maximum per AI.

Also, if you have a hard time getting looting rights, even with an archer, perhaps you should look at the following: Your template (is it lacking in 120's?), your suit, or your connection. It's not hard AT ALL for me to do enough damage, whether at an event or not (although I do need to be able to SEE the boss at an EM event...)
Competition on GLs is HIGH ..... Pretty much if you aren't one of the FIRST folk hitting the boss and doing mass damage and having EVERY shot count the chances you'll get a drop are severely diminished... If you can't stand near as it's doing massive damage constantly spamming the EC killer novablast and everything else every shot counts... Having to constantly move back to heal move back up and everything cuts into damages... slowing my bow even more than it already is cuts into hits/damage/points...

I'm ok with balancing PvP... I have nothing against that... What I have a problem with is crippling my already crippled template for the sake of the 10% who enjoy PvP. Once upon a time I did enjoy PvP. But no more. I use the build I do at EM Events (which other than the Governorship is pretty much the only interest I have left in UO)... Because that is my character... I am not going to turn him into a Sampire, or a wraith thrower, or anything else. He is what he is because that's who he is as a character. Once upon a time he was a stealth archer and a pretty good one... but then they crippled stealthing and I just couldn't justify sinking 220 points into a skill when a rabbit could reveal you just because you moved... or when any orange within 5 tiles revealed you instantly even though they had ZERO tracking, Zero Detect... and were not elves... And the final straw was when you could be targeted while in stealth by people using a hack or something... Hit with arrows... as if you were fully visible... Still with just JOAT you can be detected and tracked... which IMO is just plain non-sensical... so I gave up the hiding and stealth and took up the ABC archer template. Was bad enough that I could no longer use special moves while in form with Ninjitsu but then every other skill and use for Bushido and Ninjitsu has pretty much been stripped from the Archer... So I have 120 points in Bushido for basically 1 or 2 skills that I can use... and Ninjitsu without the hiding and stealth was obsolete... sits on a stone now.

So yeah... get disgusted when my main template is continually nerfed for PvP.
 

CovenantX

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Competition on GLs is HIGH ..... Pretty much if you aren't one of the FIRST folk hitting the boss and doing mass damage and having EVERY shot count the chances you'll get a drop are severely diminished... If you can't stand near as it's doing massive damage constantly spamming the EC killer novablast and everything else every shot counts... Having to constantly move back to heal move back up and everything cuts into damages... slowing my bow even more than it already is cuts into hits/damage/points...

I'm ok with balancing PvP... I have nothing against that... What I have a problem with is crippling my already crippled template for the sake of the 10% who enjoy PvP. Once upon a time I did enjoy PvP. But no more. I use the build I do at EM Events (which other than the Governorship is pretty much the only interest I have left in UO)... Because that is my character... I am not going to turn him into a Sampire, or a wraith thrower, or anything else. He is what he is because that's who he is as a character. Once upon a time he was a stealth archer and a pretty good one... but then they crippled stealthing and I just couldn't justify sinking 220 points into a skill when a rabbit could reveal you just because you moved... or when any orange within 5 tiles revealed you instantly even though they had ZERO tracking, Zero Detect... and were not elves... And the final straw was when you could be targeted while in stealth by people using a hack or something... Hit with arrows... as if you were fully visible... Still with just JOAT you can be detected and tracked... which IMO is just plain non-sensical... so I gave up the hiding and stealth and took up the ABC archer template. Was bad enough that I could no longer use special moves while in form with Ninjitsu but then every other skill and use for Bushido and Ninjitsu has pretty much been stripped from the Archer... So I have 120 points in Bushido for basically 1 or 2 skills that I can use... and Ninjitsu without the hiding and stealth was obsolete... sits on a stone now.
0.25 or even 0.5s wont make a difference in EM fights because everyone will be attacking slower, not just you.

also, if you know how the "Looting rights" works, you can get rights just by getting hit... to get a drop, that's all you need.... This is why Mutli-boxing is becoming a bigger problem with events, because they have become quantity over quality with the change from Top-attacker to "random"... all "random" means, is anyone with looting rights.

So yeah... get disgusted when my main template is continually nerfed for PvP.
Let's get these remarks directed at the devs, there's no one on the "pvp-side" asking for this to effect pvm and it doesn't have to.
 

OREOGL

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LMAO just like everything the PvPers whine about with NO CONSIDERATION to the MAJORITY of the UO player base. Give me a break how long you been playing UO and how many times has UO used the excuse to try and balance PvP, it is a JOKE. Guess we should all take Mesanna's advice and win at all costs.
We did not ask for this change, to be clear.

Weapons like double axes, black staffs, blades staff still swing the same speed with their proposal anyways.

It might screw some gargoyles but again, this wasn't our request.
 

OREOGL

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Do not make any changes to how SSI currently works in-game.

Do not nerf moving shot... leave it completely as is.

Keep tactics requirement as is.

Change Saving Throw to the first version of Warriror's Gifts with +15 HPI over the cap.

Leave SDI cap for PVP as is.
Being 20% right isn't all that bad...
 

OREOGL

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Man, the moment that PVM got affected, the tune changed a lot... That's quite funny as they have such an opinion on our area of the game but do not want our input on the area of the game that we do not play.

Let's openly discuss these OP slayer killer archers and throwers... The precious pvm events where a majority of these guys make cash will suffer if these changes are made. If a super nova's dmg is harsh in PVP then 200 plus HP damage every 1.25 seconds from a thrower in pvm should really be focused upon.
I think most people are confused about the 250 Stam comment and 60 sdi.

Nowhere did that suggest you'd need both of those on most weapons to reach 1.25.
 

cazador

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Ya know reading these comments I'm not seeing why it's bad as whole. Just bad for you. I remember when I bought a Val made short spear and an Item bless Deed for 2mil. Which was actually a TON of gold at the time. Two weeks later absolutely zero testing, no real news. Every single item in game was crap, and Resist on my Mage meant nothing and I died to explosion flamestrike. You're complaining about .25 swing speed so you can't afk the hardest MOBs in the game? Get fkin real!


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MalagAste

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0.25 or even 0.5s wont make a difference in EM fights because everyone will be attacking slower, not just you.

also, if you know how the "Looting rights" works, you can get rights just by getting hit... to get a drop, that's all you need.... This is why Mutli-boxing is becoming a bigger problem with events, because they have become quantity over quality with the change from Top-attacker to "random"... all "random" means, is anyone with looting rights.



Let's get these remarks directed at the devs, there's no one on the "pvp-side" asking for this to effect pvm and it doesn't have to.
No the others aren't going to be slower... Tamers won't be slower, Mages won't be slower... they don't seem to be nerfing the throwers as much... So no other archers will be slower that's it... And I wasn't directing the statement at you or PvPers... it was meant for the DEVs... I'm fed up with getting nerfed for the sake of PvP. While I understand that it is a legit gameplay and all and I do know a few who do enjoy it and I don't want to take away from them or anything I honestly just want my template to improve not get gutted some more.
 

drcossack

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No the others aren't going to be slower... Tamers won't be slower, Mages won't be slower... they don't seem to be nerfing the throwers as much... So no other archers will be slower that's it... And I wasn't directing the statement at you or PvPers... it was meant for the DEVs... I'm fed up with getting nerfed for the sake of PvP. While I understand that it is a legit gameplay and all and I do know a few who do enjoy it and I don't want to take away from them or anything I honestly just want my template to improve not get gutted some more.
Except they are, as Diddles' posts indicated. Also, tamers & mages still don't have the dps that throwers & archers do. Can a greater tank better than a player? Absolutely. But their damage, especially against high resist mobs like EM Event creatures, pales in comparison to that of a dexer. Even a Mage, if they decide to use Death Ray, won't do all that much damage, plus it has its other drawbacks, like requiring a perfectly stationary target. While it's true that it gives Mages an Armor Ignore (albeit one you can't spam like you can on a dexer), it factors resists into account, since it's Energy damage. It isn't gonna do much to something with 80% energy resist.
 

CovenantX

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No the others aren't going to be slower... Tamers won't be slower, Mages won't be slower... they don't seem to be nerfing the throwers as much... So no other archers will be slower that's it... And I wasn't directing the statement at you or PvPers... it was meant for the DEVs... I'm fed up with getting nerfed for the sake of PvP. While I understand that it is a legit gameplay and all and I do know a few who do enjoy it and I don't want to take away from them or anything I honestly just want my template to improve not get gutted some more.
Tamers & mages don't even come close to the damage warrior (weapon-based) attacks do. There is Nothing that can compete with armor ignore. even if weapons were attacking once every 2.0 seconds dexers would out dps every other class.
 

DJ Diddles

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We did not ask for this change, to be clear.

Weapons like double axes, black staffs, blades staff still swing the same speed with their proposal anyways.

It might screw some gargoyles but again, this wasn't our request.
I know what the update says, but they are phrasing something wrong or have given incorrect information.

The base speed of a double axe is 3.25 seconds. 40% of 3.25 seconds is 1.3 seconds. You cannot swing at 1.3 seconds given that it is not a .25 second increment. Given how things in this game tend to round up, the new swing speed would be 1.5 seconds, .25 seconds slower than the current maximum on live.

I'd love to see your math on that, as given the numbers they supplied double axes will be affected
  • Double Axe (1.3s swing base, effectively 1.5s, was 1.25 before this change)
While the developer comments pinpoints 3.5s and below that will still be able to achieve 1.25s, it's really anything 3.25s and above that will no longer be able to swing at 1.25s unless they have changed their rounding methods or have supplied incorrect information.
 

Merlin

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But you didn't SAY why
I told the developers why in an email.

But I will oblige you and give you a little more reason, as you atleast respectfully responded to me in a tactful, clear and concise manner, unlike many of the other comments seen through out these various "Combat Changes" threads.

Why should they be left as is, and why should the +15 HP increase that goes overcap (which is dumb from a pvp standpoint, as I explained when it was first introduced) be left in? I'm not a fan of the +5 HP overcap either, but it's still A LOT more reasonable than +15 was.
It's great from a PVM stand point, which is why is the primary reason for liking it. With all the complaints by PVPers about wanting more "template diversity", this substantial passive ability opens up some suit diversity on the PVM side.

Nor do I think it will be a game breaker for PVP. People will adapt, overcome and conquer.

Personally, I think the 5 HP is too low. I'd rather see it changed to 10 Strength, which I think would be a fair middle ground between the 15 HP and the 5 HP. There are not enough usable artifacts that give good Strength bonus.

Your moving shot argument, as I recall, was that it was used in pvm. I said why it wasn't: Armor Ignore, auto-attacks, and Lightning Strike (if Bushido) are MUCH better options, and that there are literally NO situations where you'll want to use Moving Shot, even if monsters run from you (and if they do, AI/auto-attack/LS will kill them.)
In addition to my previous points, Moving Shot is my go-to in the event of being raided. Since I use the EC and have a good computer, I can outrun ANYONE. So I will let people chase, let them catch up enough to get off some moving shots, and when I see the damage done, it will sometimes result in me turning around the doing the chasing... or letting them chase me around long enough that I can set up a trap when I call in coordinates to others.

I have no issue with the way archers use Moving Shot in PVP.

Tactics: Ultimately, this doesn't affect pvm if it's dropped, since NOBODY in a pvm setting is going to remove the skill due to it affecting damage. Sure, you'll get to do specials without tactics, but It's not worth the trade-off (which is the damage reduction) to drop tactics when you're killing monsters.
How does tactics not affect PVM? I'm not buying this argument that I've seen repeated a number of times.

Furthermore, the current TC rule is that you need 60 points of tactics to activate both specials. That means you still have 660 points remaining for other skills. You can have 3 skills at 120 and 3 skills at 100.

I have little sympathy if you can't create a workable template out of the remaining 660 points.

SDI cap: It's part of the problem. 25% focused spec wasn't bad, and it's a mere 1-2 points off of spells. I didn't completely HATE the 20% cap, but it's still a noticeable difference in how much damage you do, especially compared to the damage at 30%. Honestly, I'd be ok with a focused caster (before Inscription bonus, if applicable) having 25% SDI, with hybrids like Mystic/Spellweaver being capped at 20%.
I've yet to read a convincing reason for nerfing PVP mages. As you noted, its only a few points off of spells. Seems like unnecessary meddling to me for something that isn't truly broke.
 

drcossack

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It's great from a PVM stand point, which is why is the primary reason for liking it. With all the complaints by PVPers about wanting more "template diversity", this substantial passive ability opens up some suit diversity on the PVM side.

Nor do I think it will be a game breaker for PVP. People will adapt, overcome and conquer.

Personally, I think the 5 HP is too low. I'd rather see it changed to 10 Strength, which I think would be a fair middle ground between the 15 HP and the 5 HP. There are not enough usable artifacts that give good Strength bonus.
It might not be. Hard to say. I think it will be, especially with some of the more defensive templates, like the healing/alchemy parry mage, or the stone form/protection mystic in a spawn fight. Those don't need MORE HP.

In addition to my previous points, Moving Shot is my go-to in the event of being raided. Since I use the EC and have a good computer, I can outrun ANYONE. So I will let people chase, let them catch up enough to get off some moving shots, and when I see the damage done, it will sometimes result in me turning around the doing the chasing... or letting them chase me around long enough that I can set up a trap when I call in coordinates to others.

I have no issue with the way archers use Moving Shot in PVP.
Fair enough. However, with the proper support (Corpse Skin & Evil Omen), their damage is even higher, especially when paired with an Elemental bow - I can't think of anyone that uses a 100% Physical bow, since that's not affected by Curse. Guys more familiar with the #s can take over on that point, because I'm not sure of the exact #s off the top of my head.

How does tactics not affect PVM? I'm not buying this argument that I've seen repeated a number of times.

Furthermore, the current TC rule is that you need 60 points of tactics to activate both specials. That means you still have 660 points remaining for other skills. You can have 3 skills at 120 and 3 skills at 100.

I have little sympathy if you can't create a workable template out of the remaining 660 points
Might be the way we're wording it. With 30 tactics/120 Anat just now on TC 1, against the Undead creatures near Ilsh Compassion, I was doing under 200 with Armor Ignore (around 192 with two Undead Slayers); with 120, I peaked at 237, which is my standard maximum (Occasionally I've hit for 243, but it's not frequent enough for me to take it into consideration.) Given that, I'm unlikely to drop Tactics on my throwers, although I could do so if I chose. However, sacrificing the ~45 max damage on Armor Ignore is not, IMO, worth dropping Tactics on a pvm dexer.

I've yet to read a convincing reason for nerfing PVP mages. As you noted, its only a few points off of spells. Seems like unnecessary meddling to me for something that isn't truly broke.
I'm all for toning down dps, but I think there are other ways to do it. However, there's no denying that, outside of specialized roles (i.e. a Mystic in a dungeon fight), there is literally no mage template that comes close to a parry mage, whatever variation is used (i.e. healing/alchemy parry.) Either way, the main way to stop a mage from hitting you with spells is interrupting them. It's everything else a parry mage has access to, i.e. Supernova pots, that are the bigger problem. Granted, anyone in vvv can use a Nova, but mages get the most potential out of them without giving up ANYTHING. I won't doubt there are dexers with Alchemy, but given how tight dexer templates tend to be, they likely have to give up something to use the skill.
 

CovenantX

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How does tactics not affect PVM? I'm not buying this argument that I've seen repeated a number of times.

Furthermore, the current TC rule is that you need 60 points of tactics to activate both specials. That means you still have 660 points remaining for other skills. You can have 3 skills at 120 and 3 skills at 100.

I have little sympathy if you can't create a workable template out of the remaining 660 points.
It's not 660 remaining points because you need a weapon skill to toggle specials. so it's actually closer to 540.0 remaining skill, without a way to heal yourself, or any other sources of damage yet.

There's no reduction in Tactics damage, it's to allow people to use some specials for their utility uses, instead of using nothing but burst damage (because if you have tactics, Burst damage is basically all you care about (in pvp)).

If you drop tactics in pvm, you will see a great portion of damage missing, most easily noticed when fighting targets that have no slayer vulnerabilities.
the 300% damage "cap" is not factoring tactics at all. the 300 cap is made up by bonus damage, things like Slayer bonus 0-100% damage from Damage increase (item property) spells Chivalry>enemy of one, & Bushido "Honor>perfection" bonuses.

in short, allowing specials to be toggled with 0 tactics (and still requiring 70-90 weapon skill for primary & secondary respectively) wouldn't hurt pvm in any way... but, if you choose to drop tactics, you could theoretically get more survivability by sacrificing the tactics damage increase (the bonus damage will remain unchanged).

Unfortunately by dropping your tactics, you'll also be leeching less Life, mana, & stamina, because the amount returned to you, is based on the amount of damage you deal as well. (it won't be worth dropping tactics on any pvm-templates that exist right now).
 

Ender

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It might not be. Hard to say. I think it will be, especially with some of the more defensive templates, like the healing/alchemy parry mage, or the stone form/protection mystic in a spawn fight. Those don't need MORE HP.
Can those templates actually fit 120 real weapon skill in?
 

CovenantX

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Can those templates actually fit 120 real weapon skill in?
Not likely, besides according to the mastery you couldn't get the HP bonus unless you had a minimum of 90 weapon skill & 90 tactics. dexers (melee, & ranged) and tank-mages would get this bonus.
 

Ender

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Not likely, besides according to the mastery you couldn't get the HP bonus unless you had a minimum of 90 weapon skill & 90 tactics. dexers (melee, & ranged) and tank-mages would get this bonus.
That's what I thought.

I really like the idea of a small over the cap HP bonus given how hard they like monsters to hit nowadays.
 

drcossack

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Can those templates actually fit 120 real weapon skill in?
Ah, right. Forgot about that, actually. I was tunnel-visioning on the HP Increase & I forgot the skill requirement.

Not likely, besides according to the mastery you couldn't get the HP bonus unless you had a minimum of 90 weapon skill & 90 tactics. dexers (melee, & ranged) and tank-mages would get this bonus.
Not quite. You still need the 90 weapon skill, but you can activate the new mastery bonuses (edited to make more sense) without tactics. Just checked on a dummy character.
 

Max Blackoak

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the SSI nerf to warriors is too much. the major problem was moving shot with elemental damage bows and this has already been solved with hit chance penalty and only physical damage.
the 250 stamina suit is clearly a myth and even 211 stamina suits are hard to get. on Siege Perilous they are rarely to be found because people will lose their suits on a regular basis so they only run what they can replace easily. please get rid of the SSI nerf!
 

OREOGL

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I know what the update says, but they are phrasing something wrong or have given incorrect information.

The base speed of a double axe is 3.25 seconds. 40% of 3.25 seconds is 1.3 seconds. You cannot swing at 1.3 seconds given that it is not a .25 second increment. Given how things in this game tend to round up, the new swing speed would be 1.5 seconds, .25 seconds slower than the current maximum on live.

I'd love to see your math on that, as given the numbers they supplied double axes will be affected
  • Double Axe (1.3s swing base, effectively 1.5s, was 1.25 before this change)
While the developer comments pinpoints 3.5s and below that will still be able to achieve 1.25s, it's really anything 3.25s and above that will no longer be able to swing at 1.25s unless they have changed their rounding methods or have supplied incorrect information.

I'm aware of the math involved.

I would guess if they are taking this route they'd adjust for the swing increments.

And if we are talking about 1.25 vs 1.3 it's literally .05 difference.
Do you know how many swings it'd take take to show the loss of a one swing? So essentially that's unchanged.

But I do not know why they're telling people you can swing at 1.25 with a 4.25 weapon if they're telling us 40% is the cap.

But hey out of the entire post I'm glad you were able to take that one piece of information and make an argument out of .05 speed difference.
 
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Necron87

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@Kyronix tell please why write about cap 250 stamina,even when 240 stamina will impossible without potions ?))



  • Weapon swing speed is now capped at 40% of base swing speed or 1.25 seconds, whichever is higher. The current Stamina cap is 250 and the current Swing Speed Increase cap is 60 which allows 4.25s and below weapons to swing at 1.25s. This change brings more balance, only allowing 3.5s and below weapons to reach 1.25s, which adds more value to those weapons besides weapon special moves. Out of all the suggested changes this one has the biggest impact on combat which is why we are cautious with moving forward and will require additional player feedback.
 
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