Stratics: The "unvarnished" events of the past few days

[MalagAste]

This is dramatic! So glad I came back to UO. Is archery nerfed?

When isn't archery nerfed? Heck there was just a recent post on Stratics about nerfing Moving Shot... as if Archery hasn't been nerfed enough.

 

[petemage]

IMO Stratics has a fundamental problem with its self-perception, thus enticing the wrong people to run it.

Stratics loves to see itself as some professional platform with tons of services people like to use. Ron Bron already thought Stratics was some professional thing and had to realize it's not half worth what people make it to be.

Reality in 2016 is: Stratics is a gaming forum with a couple of salty regulars and an occasional post from an Dev. Not even No. #1 source of UO information as most people use UOGuide for that.

I don't know why Stratics needs all this overcomplicated crap like "senior staff", legal crap, NDAs and what not. I never know whether to laugh or cry when seeing Elleni pulling an meaningless wall of text which could be said in 5 sentences. Like they do it just for the sake of looking totally professional (lots words = lots important). If you need a lawyer to volunteer on a gaming forum, you are likely doing something wrong.

Downsizing would go a long way, and probably make people realize there is no penny to earn from it.

 

[MedeaDF]

Pleasepleaseplease, Broadsword, open your official UO Forums NOWWW!!!

 

[Winker]

Shortly before 6pm EST this evening I received legal requests from Stratics regarding content on a website I manage. In response to this I will not be making further comments on this forum at this time.

I have been in a similar situation. Dont remove it until your forced to. This will in the end cost Stratics loads in legal fees and teach them not to involve legal teams for neighborly disputes. But to be realistic anyone who wants to see the content of the ban last has already seen it and knows who said what. So their legal request is meaningless and just costing them cash.

 

[The Craftsman]

This thread and the handling of it by the senior mods has taken a predictable path ...

> Draft up a very carefully worded statement
> Have someone who is not one of the Mods directly involved throw it up as a front man
> Allow the 'undesirables' and other assorted stratics folk vent their outrage, ask questions etc
> Dont have the people involved in the incident respond with any sort of depth but simply let the storm blow over
> After a couple of days sideline the post off to a more obscure forum
> Leave it there until eventually it drops off the front page
> All nicely brushed under the carpet

There are a few things just not right with all of this.

Firstly @Elenni ... joined stratics in September 2015. After a few months is on the newly formed 'Stratics senior leadership team' (the pomposity of which beggars belief). She has been repeatedly asked in this thread who she is without reply. A lot of folk (regular posters) had never heard of her. Some answers would be not only nice but in light of recent events are most definitely needed. Something just doesnt sit right here.

How did she come by the position she now occupies after such a short time here?
Is it an alt account? If so why?
Did she 'buy' her way on the board through donations?
Is she a friend and/or associate of existing board members?

The whole thing just stinks to the high heavens and after recent events some transparency is absolutely required.

Next, whilst Norrington, obviously acknowledging his mistakes and accepting his accountability has stepped down, the other two people involved have taken a completely different approach.

@Nexus has shown nothing short of contempt for the members of this forum. Steadfastly refusing to face any responsibility, answer any questions, make an apology, or even a statement.

@Riyana has been totally absent. No posts on the subject, no apology, nothing. In hiding I guess rather than face up to her actions.

It seems these two senior stratics mods are simply prepared to hole up and wait till it all blows over and carry on regardless. It doesnt work like that. There is a reason why politicians, senior business people, prominent public figures almost ALWAYS step down in the wake of a 'scandal'. There position becomes untenable. No amount of time will remove the stigma and the association and they lose the trust of the public, they lose their integrity, they lose any respect people may have had and they are no longer taken seriously. Their decisions and actions going forward will forever be taken at more than face value. They stand down because staying means that they will never be taken seriously again by the majority of the public, and never trusted.

This is you @Nexus and @Riyana

No one can make you stand down but you are on a hiding to nothing in staying. Youve lost integrity and respect.

Cue the sycophants and toadies to defend the indefensible.

 

[Tyrath]

what about small claims?

Suspect SC would be the wrong venue for this type of case. Next stratics would have to prove financial harm I suspect that would be hard to do if not impossible. Slander, libel etc wile they sound really cool and people toss them around a lot, are among the hardest cases to win as it comes down to was it an opinion or stated as fact, then what was the financial harm. This is more like two kids with lemonade stand talking bad about each other lemonade and one sending the other C & D. If it more than that then it opens the door for all of stratics private conversation to be entered into public record that I am guessing they really don't want public, giving the opposing side even more ammo if not grounds for counter suit. Given that several people were already disparaged in private conversations there probably already are grounds for a suit based on the leaked documents. But again what was the harm and were these facts or opinions.

 

[Giggles]

Not that is matters, but I was the one who moved these threads on my own accord. I figured having one central place for all of these threads was a good idea. Not to mention it really isn't a "uhall" topic to begin with.
I am not concerned with "covering up" anything, and left redirect links so everyone could find the new location easily.

Honestly, I think I am just missing the (Defcon 1) effect of all this. I was upset and confused when it all happened, but now I think its all just becoming ridiculous.The bans were reversed, and in my mind it has been fixed. Maybe I would feel differently if my name was on the list also *shrug*. But in all fairness, I do remember a time when I was perma banned a few years back for getting into a silly argument with a mod, an argument he started no less. I was also placed on a "list", and man I wish I had 15 people crying foul for me then! If you all think Stratics "bad kid lists" didn't exist prior to our current admins, you are sadly mistaken. Its a standard business practice for any type of social forum.

Call me a "sycophant and toadie" all you want to, but several people were involved in that leaked conversation, and it was a conversation that never made it to an official board vote before it was acted on. Maybe it would have happened, maybe it wouldn't have. Either way, the actions were reversed, and this is no political office with prominent public figures.
Lets get back to the game guys.

 

[Spartan]

That would definitely be a transparent system. One of the additional things that seems to drive distrust is the "Mods do not take actions against their buddies" line of thinking. The only thing I could add to your points is...

4- Put the demerits/point count on the posters avatar over there <------- with a 0/20 (arbitrary number) type counter. This way people can see the uniform application of ROC violations.​

Dunno if the software would allow the point count with the avatar as that is usually in the members control. How about as part of the response or some separate lookup thing where you or anyone could look up a poster and see points? I can go for #4 as well.

 

[Rafman]

Knock it off you are just being down right silly.

It's cut and dry

Frankly I was shocked to see a statement like that from JC. Especially after his visible support for the community purchase. You do not have to be focused on finding something wrong to clearly see that it was a directly encouraged threat to the functionality of the Stratics team.

Regardless of whether anyone actually followed through with his suggestion.

While I do not support something outside Stratics affecting your Stratics membership.

I am 100% for and expect the Stratics team to take action against a member for something outside Stratics that constitutes a direct threat to the Staff, a Member, or the integrity in any way shape or form of the site.

Really that is just common sense

Now we all make mistakes so I don't hold it against JC however there clearly are some consequences to deal with.

Nabin - you know I like you. But I think you're over-exaggerating in a major way here.

All JC did was ask active uo players (pvp'ers) to go post on stratics about PvP issues. He may have made a comment you thought sounded a bit "mean" about mods having trouble moderating threads but - let's be serious. He is sending uo players who post on a forum, to post on a UO forum about UO pvp. Am i missing something? Where's the harm in that?

He's not sending someone to hack someone. Or attack someone. Or spam, cheat, lie, steal...he is encouraging a playerbase, who doesn't usually use stratics, to use it more often. THAT IS IT. Shouldn't that be a plus? A way to grow the community further?

What are we crying about? Are moderators on stratics incapable of moderating discussions about UO, or about PvP? i'm sorry but if that's true than maybe that's what we should all be discussing and concentrating on instead, because it's a problem. It's a game, pvp is part of the game, people talking about pvp should be fine.

Nabin i seriously do not understand where you're coming from. How is any of this a "threat" as you say. It would be the same as me sending a bunch of shoppers in game to one of your vendor houses and also adding a comment saying "I bet Nabin's vendor's home can't handle all the vendor traffic "

I mean - I would be sending your shoppers your way . A vendor house wants shoppers, said vendor house should be greatful for more shoppers rather than trying to take offense at me implying you can't handle so many shoppers?

Same analogy here. Stratics is a forum. The goal of a forum should be to increase traffic? JC was doing so. Stratics should be grateful, or maybe they shouldn't even care, but they certainly shouldn't get all upset and offended and concentrate on the fact that JC said he believes the staff can't handle the extra traffic. Who cares? If anything - I would be severely embarrassed to be a part of stratics and to admit we somehow can't handle certain posters. I would expect them to react by thinking "Yeah we can handle pvp'ers posting on stratics fine, this guy's crazy to think we can't, we'll show him how good we do so".

"Talking bad" isn't what I'm talking about here.

First, he did, repeatedly, break rules here at Stratics, relating to RMT among other things. This already has been stated earlier in this thread.

Second, the statement by JC was not "talking bad about Stratics". It was an active encouragement of actions which would exacerbate a situation in which, by JC's own words, "the Stratics staff [already] appear to be having a really tough time moderating". That isn't "talking bad". That is incitement towards an action which is implied to directly cause Stratics harm.

(Apologies for the image quality; it's a screencap of a screencap of a screencap. )

Brian, buddy. Don't be a major hypocrite. RMT? You know you've done RMT yourself many times, often off of dealings initiated on stratics.

But now because you apparently don't like someone you're trying to accuse them of doing the same and to use that as a reason to ban them?

 

[Rafman]

Not that is matters, but I was the one who moved these threads on my own accord. I figured having one central place for all of these threads was a good idea. Not to mention it really isn't a "uhall" topic to begin with.
I am not concerned with "covering up" anything, and left redirect links so everyone could find the new location easily.

Honestly, I think I am just missing the (Defcon 1) effect of all this. I was upset and confused when it all happened, but now I think its all just becoming ridiculous.The bans were reversed, and in my mind it has been fixed. Maybe I would feel differently if my name was on the list also *shrug*. But in all fairness, I do remember a time when I was perma banned a few years back for getting into a silly argument with a mod, an argument he started no less. I was also placed on a "list", and man I wish I had 15 people crying foul for me then! If you all think Stratics "bad kid lists" didn't exist prior to our current admins, you are sadly mistaken. Its a standard business practice for any type of social forum.

Call me a "sycophant and toadie" all you want to, but several people were involved in that leaked conversation, and it was a conversation that never made it to an official board vote before it was acted on. Maybe it would have happened, maybe it wouldn't have. Either way, the actions were reversed, and this is no political office with prominent public figures.
Lets get back to the game guys.

Just to recap the timeline of the past few days, without getting into specifics.

1. Something happens that gets a LOT of people in the community upset/wanting to discuss (finding out about the list)

2. Stratics spends days deleting/locking/editing any thread discussing the topic.

3. Stratics - days later - finally says "ok here's one topic you can talk about it here but only here - if anyone creates another thread it'll be locked"

4. 2 days later - the one thread where stratics is allowing its members to discuss the happenings gets moved to some sub-forum nobody uses.

And you see nothing wrong with that? Really?

 

[Giggles]

Just to recap the timeline of the past few days, without getting into specifics.

1. Something happens that gets a LOT of people in the community upset/wanting to discuss (finding out about the list)

2. Stratics spends days deleting/locking/editing any thread discussing the topic.

3. Stratics - days later - finally says "ok here's one topic you can talk about it here but only here - if anyone creates another thread it'll be locked"

4. 2 days later - the one thread where stratics is allowing its members to discuss the happenings gets moved to some sub-forum nobody uses.

And you see nothing wrong with that? Really?

1. Tuesday NDA info shows up on hot forums.
2. Tuesday night 2 threads pop up all angry asking what the hell, those threads were removed, because even most of the staff didn't know what the hell yet...
3. Tuesday night people are banned. Nothing was posted or removed after the bannings.
4. Wednesday the other board members get online and realize people were banned and its a huge mess.
5. Wednesday night the board released this statement Recent bans and other related topics. It was asked for the community to remain civil, and it explained the bans were lifted.
6. That post didn't remain civil at all, as can even be seen by Zuckuss's post. It was decided that because so many people were "going nuts" we would not allow open discussion until we had all the facts and statement drafted, as well as the involvement of the entire board.
7. Wednesday late night began a "forum war", where 12 threads regarding this topic were deleted from uhall, again, after asking everyone to be patient and civil. Until finally, this post... Hey guys. remained. Where again it was asked for people to please calm down and be patient. As you can see, that didn't happen.
8. Thursday morning comes this post Stratics: The "unvarnished" events of the past few days and it has been open to conversation ever since.
9. Friday I decided to move the post, with redirects, because I felt it would be a good idea to have all of the threads in the same forum. This is NOT a uhall topic, as uhall is for the general discussion of ultima online. Since the post was moved, people have had no problems finding it or using it.

So no, I don't see anything wrong with that timeline. The statement wasn't released until Thursday morning. With choices relying on a few board members, its not always easy having them all immediately available for issues like this. We tried to have open discussion on the topic immediately after the events, there was a handful of very aggressive people who ruined that for everyone, with wild theories and flat out ROC violations. I even had the joy of removing some porn! This situation was handled in the best way it could have been given the circumstances and the high amounts of anger at that time.

I'm not sure how you feel this is all some conspiracy theory, and mission to muffle the community. There does need to be some order in a very chaotic situation.

 

[Rafman]

1. Tuesday NDA info shows up on hot forums.
2. Tuesday night 2 threads pop up all angry asking what the hell, those threads were removed, because even most of the staff didn't know what the hell yet...
3. Tuesday night people are banned. Nothing was posted or removed after the bannings.
4. Wednesday the other board members get online and realize people were banned and its a huge mess.
5. Wednesday night the board released this statement Recent bans and other related topics. It was asked for the community to remain civil, and it explained the bans were lifted.
6. That post didn't remain civil at all, as can even be seen by Zuckuss's post. It was decided that because so many people were "going nuts" we would not allow open discussion until we had all the facts and statement drafted, as well as the involvement of the entire board.
7. Wednesday late night began a "forum war", where 12 threads regarding this topic were deleted from uhall, again, after asking everyone to be patient and civil. Until finally, this post... Hey guys. remained. Where again it was asked for people to please calm down and be patient. As you can see, that didn't happen.
8. Thursday morning comes this post Stratics: The "unvarnished" events of the past few days and it has been open to conversation ever since.
9. Friday I decided to move the post, with redirects, because I felt it would be a good idea to have all of the threads in the same forum. This is NOT a uhall topic, as uhall is for the general discussion of ultima online. Since the post was moved, people have had no problems finding it or using it.

So no, I don't see anything wrong with that timeline. The statement wasn't released until Thursday morning. With choices relying on a few board members, its not always easy having them all immediately available for issues like this. We tried to have open discussion on the topic immediately after the events, there was a handful of very aggressive people who ruined that for everyone, with wild theories and flat out ROC violations. I even had the joy of removing some porn! This situation was handled in the best way it could have been given the circumstances and the high amounts of anger at that time.

I'm not sure how you feel this is all some conspiracy theory, and mission to muffle the community. There does need to be some order in a very chaotic situation.

I didn't use the word conspiracy. There's no conspiracy, and i don't believe in conspiracies in general. But a mission to muffle the community? "Mission" is too strong of a word, but there's definitely some "muffling" going on.

Something happened - something that got a LOT of the members of the community very upset/riled up and who wanted to have an open discussion about it. Instead of allowing so, for days any discussion was prohibited.

Also - in your 9th line you say something about "having all of the threads in the same forum". Whereas when this thread first begun, i thought it was implied it was the only open thread startics would allow on-topic. So i'm not sure which it is now.

To simplify my thoughts on the matter:

1. Something happened, relating to UO, Stratics, and UO Players.

2. The members of this forum want to use this forum to discuss these happenings.

3. Let Them?

We can get into specifics about some of the events that happened, and how I feel or don't feel about certain things if you want, but this isn't what this post is about. This is strictly about the above 3 points. There's something going on, people want to discuss it, let them?

If people make personal attacks, if people post "porn" as you said, ban them. Some posters do go overboard/post inappropriate comments - it's the Internet and unfortunately it happens.

Uhall is the most active UO Forum on stratics.
This topic is the most active topic of conversation on stratics (by FAR, and in very, very long time I would guess).
This topic was first created on UHall, so everyone could see/discuss.
Moving it to another forum didn't have to happen, and shouldn't have. This whole thread of 400+ posts is full of people implying and insinuating that the Stratics staff won't let the community have an open discussion about certain topics.

How do you not see that moving this thread to another forum maybe isn't a good idea? It just comes across as Stratics staff trying again to further prevent an open discussion.

 

[Giggles]

Well there is no more preventing conversations, that should be apparent. This situation hasn't been easy on anyone. Merlin and I have been the moderators handling most of this, with very little guidance or instruction from the board. As you can imagine, they have had their hands full with other matters. I don't expect any sympathy from anyone, doing this "volunteer" work is my choice alone. But I will say, Merlin and myself have been the only two moderators available during this whole entire fiasco. I am doing this for the benefit of the entire community, while trying to keep things civil, while doing my full time job and full time school work.

Simply banning some of the problem makers during phase one of all this wasn't really an option, especially since some of the people pouring oil were on that "list". That would be like me saying "Oh hey, you were unbanned, cool! now let me ban again you because you're pissed about it!" Yeah... not exactly a sound solution right? So instead we tried to let tempers cool, and give a specific place for all the discussions, with a lot of leniency outside of our standard ROC.

I have no desire to muffle anyone. I feel this topic should be discussed, and re-discussed, and resolutions and understandings need to be met. I get it, I do. But for many reasons, up to and including the avoidance of another uhall thread war, I felt this forum would be the best place to keep everything grouped and easily accessible to anyone who wanted to view ALL of the topics regarding this. They would not be spread out by several uhall posts.
I am sorry if moving these topics upset everyone. I did what I felt was best.

 

[Rafman]

Well there is no more preventing conversations, that should be apparent. This situation hasn't been easy on anyone. Merlin and I have been the moderators handling most of this, with very little guidance or instruction from the board. As you can imagine, they have had their hands full with other matters. I don't expect any sympathy from anyone, doing this "volunteer" work is my choice alone. But I will say, Merlin and myself have been the only two moderators available during this whole entire fiasco. I am doing this for the benefit of the entire community, while trying to keep things civil, while doing my full time job and full time school work.

Simply banning some of the problem makers during phase one of all this wasn't really an option, especially since some of the people pouring oil were on that "list". That would be like me saying "Oh hey, you were unbanned, cool! now let me ban again you because you're pissed about it!" Yeah... not exactly a sound solution right? So instead we tried to let tempers cool, and give a specific place for all the discussions, with a lot of leniency outside of our standard ROC.

I have no desire to muffle anyone. I feel this topic should be discussed, and re-discussed, and resolutions and understandings need to be met. I get it, I do. But for many reasons, up to and including the avoidance of another uhall thread war, I felt this forum would be the best place to keep everything grouped and easily accessible to anyone who wanted to view ALL of the topics regarding this. They would not be spread out by several uhall posts.
I am sorry if moving these topics upset everyone. I did what I felt was best.

This is a post full of common sense. You're explaining your actions, explaining why you did them and even apologizing if it upset anyone and explaining - honestly so I feel - why you did it (moving the thread) in the first place.

Thank you for that. I still feel this thread should be moved back to the main hall, where people can see it and discuss it, for the reasons I mentioned.

The biggest problem in this whole mess is that very few people who are apparently involved with Stratics are taking the same approach you have. Some are. Some members involved in running stratics who have posted in this thread have done so with honesty, integrity and common sense. And they seem like upstanding individuals.

Others however are displaying a haughty attitude, refusing to apologize or acknowledge what was wrong, being defensive, and just making things worst by coming across as arrogant and with a holier than thou attitude.

I just read some of the conversations between senior stratics staff and JC that was posted on the hot forums. Everytime something new is posted, the stratics staff in question comes across very badly. Supposedly more stuff will be posted again later on after stratics tried to bully their way by threatening legal action, in case anyone is interested.

Hardly a way to try to diffuse a situation and move on.

 

[Ruppy2]

1. I even had the joy of removing some porn! This situation was handled in the best way it could have been given the circumstances and the high amounts of anger at that time.

.... There does need to be some order in a very chaotic situation.

Could you point to which forum directory the porn was moved to?

 

[Scribbles]

This still going huh? longest song ever....

You're so vein you probably... still... think this forum is about you...

 

[Vince]

What is this I don't even.

 

[Lord Nabin]

I just read some of the conversations between senior stratics staff and JC that was posted on the hot forums. Everytime something new is posted, the stratics staff in question comes across very badly. Supposedly more stuff will be posted again later on after stratics tried to bully their way by threatening legal action, in case anyone is interested.

.

Just a not on that. It was clearly edited. The post does not show the back and forth conversation which took place.

That wasn't meant as a bash just a fact that should be sitting out there.

 

[BrianFreud]

Brian, buddy. Don't be a major hypocrite. RMT? You know you've done RMT yourself many times, often off of dealings initiated on stratics.

For the record Rafman, let's also be clear. From what I understand, you co-founded HOT? So you rather have some investment in this. As for JC, the RMT involved advertising it. Stratics has no involvement when any RMT might happen - but you're not allowed to advertise it, as JC was doing. There's absolutely nothing hypocritical in pointing that out.

But now because you apparently don't like someone you're trying to accuse them of doing the same and to use that as a reason to ban them?

First, the person who actually banned JC is no longer a mod here. Norrington is now a mod at HOT though, oddly enough. The senior staff here actually *un*banned JC. And as for myself, I'm not senior staff. I have no ability to ban anyone. So... how am I "us[ing] that as a reason to ban them"?

 

[Zosimus]

I hate to even reply anymore ( In my last post was suppose to be my last post about this topic) to this thread but I have to. Giggles is the only one that actually had feelings in her post. You can read her thoughts and feelings in her post. Not some formal thought out typed crap acting like they have some type of Harvard degree.

I can tell very clearly she was upset and in turmoil of this whole situation. She felt best to move the topic and says it herself. She even sounds very apologetic in her tone of her posts to a point. She had nothing to do with the bannings and the issue at hand. She does love the community and she loves Stratics. She was a bit angry from the things said about staff but I can understand that because she is dedicated to the site. She is the only one that has had some feelings put in her posts that I have seen that has not sounded robotic or snark remarks back at the community.

@Giggles at this time and the only person from Stratics side that has handled themselves in a professional level with a level of civility and compassion. Yes, some will say I always side with Giggles. How can you not love Giggles? She does PvP and knows issues with that part of the game. She has always been a light in sometimes dark days here on Stratics. Her posts are fun to read Flame me if you want but in truth she felt what needed to be done but this thread is still alive and well. I don't begrudge her for that. Doesn't mean I agree with the thread being moved and I still my Giggles.


Now this is not directed towards Giggles but to the so called board.

The rest of what is going on is a complete mess. I read more stuff on the internets this morning and all I can say is why keep adding fuel to the fire Stratics? I never seen someone throw gas on a fire that they want to extinguish.

Correction on one thing I did read about the profit and non profit LLC argument. If you are saying it needed reworded before it could be changed to a non profit at least when you make your point please use proper grammar. Makes me see why it needed reworded. It got? Really that how the point started out with? It got? It needs or use something else but do not use "It got". C'mon man. How more country can you get? It got? Lmao. I cant get the bloody thing out my head. It got, It got, It got..... If you say it fast enough.....you almost make it sound like a foreign word.

This is one of those moments that there isn't a face palm pic isn't big enough on the internet to post. Guess if "it got" one some where I am sure not finding it.

 

[BrianFreud]

@Rafman and @JC, this is to serve as public notice that should you continue posting any private communications between myself and JC on HOT, I will consider filing a claim under the Publication of Private Facts as well as other relevant statutes.

It is especially damning for you that the private communications which you are posting have been heavily edited, along with a contra-factual narrative which is presenting an incorrect history of the communications.

This will be your only notice. Get it off your site, and don't post any more of it.

 

[Rafman]

For the record Rafman, let's also be clear. From what I understand, you co-founded HOT? So you rather have some investment in this. As for JC, the RMT involved advertising it. Stratics has no involvement when any RMT might happen - but you're not allowed to advertise it, as JC was doing. There's absolutely nothing hypocritical in pointing that out.




First, the person who actually banned JC is no longer a mod here. Norrington is now a mod at HOT though, oddly enough. The senior staff here actually *un*banned JC. And as for myself, I'm not senior staff. I have no ability to ban anyone. So... how am I "us[ing] that as a reason to ban them"?

Technically, i didn't "co-found" HOT. I single-handedly started HOT many years ago, and was GM of the guild for many years until I decided to step down. JC just joined the guild early on. But i don't have any type of "investment" in anything. I don't run nor own the website in anyway, that is 100% JC, and has been from the start.

You seriously need to stop trying to fling accusations out of left field.

I have 0 problem with RMT, I think they're fine, and anyone who knows me knows I have conducted some over the years.

My problem with your statement is that you try to paint RMT in a negative light - use it as a reason to bash on JC (out of left field, since as far as I can tell you're the first person in this whole thread who even brought up RMT and JC together), all the while you yourself conduct RMT. If you can't tell why this is hypocritical, maybe you should look up the definition in a dictionary.

 

[Spartan]

@Kylie Kinslayer - it looks as if we two are the only ones with any ideas on how to continue in a more open manner. Everyone else is doing takedown requests (which in the context here is fair), determining the differences between slander, libel, etc or still scraping scabs off wounds so they can complain about the blood in the water.

I don't know about you, but it appears the VOCAL community here is hell-bent on destruction.

 

[WootSauce]

as well as other relevant statues.

What a relevant statue may look like...

 

[BrianFreud]

Technically, i didn't "co-found" HOT. I single-handedly started HOT many years ago, and was GM of the guild for many years until I decided to step down. JC just joined the guild early on. But i don't have any type of "investment" in anything. I don't run nor own the website in anyway, that is 100% JC, and has been from the start.

You seriously need to stop trying to fling accusations out of left field.

I have 0 problem with RMT, I think they're fine, and anyone who knows me knows I have conducted some over the years.

My problem with your statement is that you try to paint RMT in a negative light - use it as a reason to bash on JC (out of left field, since as far as I can tell you're the first person in this whole thread who even brought up RMT and JC together), all the while you yourself conduct RMT. If you can't tell why this is hypocritical, maybe you should look up the definition in a dictionary.

Hold off on your baseless claims; I haven't bought anything in at least a year, if not several, for $. I've never sold anything for $.

Regardless, this isn't about who is buying or selling for $, me or JC, or your, for that matter. I am not trying to paint RMT in any particular light. JC did, however, advertise RMT, which is something which occurred repeatedly on Stratics. Advertising RMT on Stratics is against the rules, therefore, he broke those rules. That says nothing about RMT itself; it's simply a basic fact.

 

[BrianFreud]

@Spartan, I'm happy to move forward. I don't know that there's really going to be any progress towards anything actually made in this particular thread, however. At the same time, I'm also just not going to stand back while someone decides it's ok to edit and post assorted private communications on a whim, esp when those include communications with me about a site which isn't even HOT *or* Stratics.

 

[funkymonkey]

Link do not remove anything.

Don't let him bully you.

 

[Aran]

@Kylie Kinslayer - it looks as if we two are the only ones with any ideas on how to continue in a more open manner. Everyone else is doing takedown requests (which in the context here is fair), determining the differences between slander, libel, etc or still scraping scabs off wounds so they can complain about the blood in the water.

I don't know about you, but it appears the VOCAL community here is hell-bent on destruction.

Buddy, you may have been here back in the day, but as of right now you re-regged in January of this year and have 48 posts in the time since. You weren't targeted by this cabal, you really have no dog in this fight. It's understandable that you don't have any sort of emotional response to this because essentially you're an outsider again.

The vocal community right now is still deeply in the "hurt" phase. It'll pass. But until then, maybe you could hop on back to sitting outside the fence politely and stop trying to force what isn't going to happen right away.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

@Rafman and @JC, this is to serve as public notice that should you continue posting any private communications between myself and JC on HOT, I will consider filing a claim under the Publication of Private Facts as well as other relevant statutes.

It is especially damning for you that the private communications which you are posting have been heavily edited, along with a contra-factual narrative which is presenting an incorrect history of the communications.

This will be your only notice. Get it off your site, and don't post any more of it.

LOL. Right, please file the claim because they are really going to care that you have an issue over a private conversation on a 20year old video game! Do you have any idea how foolish you are making yourself look?

 

[Tina Small]

@Kylie Kinslayer - it looks as if we two are the only ones with any ideas on how to continue in a more open manner. Everyone else is doing takedown requests (which in the context here is fair), determining the differences between slander, libel, etc or still scraping scabs off wounds so they can complain about the blood in the water.

I don't know about you, but it appears the VOCAL community here is hell-bent on destruction.

My suggestion, 133 posts back in this thread: Stratics: The "unvarnished" events of the past few days.

Edited to add: And here is the post where I agreed with Kylie that the staff should start the discussion I suggested: Stratics: The "unvarnished" events of the past few days .

I have no dog in this fight, so to speak. However, I really, really hate that so many people that I share a love of UO with are getting so upset over this.

 

[elster]

Oh wow. This thread has really shed more light on the staff and what they stand for. It's actually just hilarious to me now. A dying UO community, and efforts are spent on take down notices and meaningless ********. Efforts are spent driving people away instead of bringing people in. Efforts are spent arguing semantics instead of substance. Efforts are spent nit picking a legal document and how to best interpret it to support your biases of individuals - finding a way to twist any wording of it to support a ban or legal action. Unbelievable.

 

[Rafman]

Brian.

I am not making baseless claims - you are. I don't own nor invest in anyway in HOT forum - you implying I do because I'm part of the guild is a "baseless" claim.

You brought up RMT, tied JC to it and implied that to be a knock on him. I merely pointed out the hypocrisy in doing so when you yourself conduct RMT. Why are you even denying it, or trying to separate yourself from it? I don't know anything about JC advertizing for it or not, nor do I particularly care. JC isn't on trial here anymore than you are - or should be. Is this thread now becoming a "let's gather all of the bad things we can about JC, right or wrong, to try and make him look bad"?

If you have issues with stuff posted on HOT forums - you're welcome to go on there and speak about it.

 

[funkymonkey]

Oh please do join @BrianFreud the HOT forms will give you the warmest of welcomes.

 

[BrianFreud]

I am not making baseless claims - you are. I don't own nor invest in anyway in HOT forum - you implying I do because I'm part of the guild is a "baseless" claim.

I never said you had a financial motive. I said that you were invested here. My intention was to say that you, as co-founder of a guild, would naturally be invested in the success of that guild, which would, I assume, extend to that guild's website. The site is "hot-guild" after all. If you took my words otherwise, my apologies.

As for JC, leave him to deal with his own issues. This thread is, partially, for discussion regarding the list. JC was on the list for his actions, which included advertising RMT. JC and others came here and posted about how innocent JC was, and how he specifically was being wronged. Sorry, but I call it like it is, and that's bogus. I'm not putting JC on trial, but I am going to point out when his words don't match his actions.

I'm also unwilling to mess with posting at HOT. JC doesn't really need to have my personal info, which would be required for me to sign up there. JC is taking private messages from *this* site and publicly posting them elsewhere. I've also communicated with a mod from HOT that the private messages need to be taken down immediately. If they do not, and/or if there are further private communications involving myself posted, I will take appropriate actions.

 

[elster]

If they do not, and/or if there are further private communications involving myself posted, I will take appropriate actions.

This right here. This is what the staff gets off on. They just love ending every post in some sort of threat. Dude is rock hard right after typing that.

.... I'll see myself out.

 

[Spartan]

Buddy, you may have been here back in the day, but as of right now you re-regged in January of this year and have 48 posts in the time since. You weren't targeted by this cabal, you really have no dog in this fight. It's understandable that you don't have any sort of emotional response to this because essentially you're an outsider again.

The vocal community right now is still deeply in the "hurt" phase. It'll pass. But until then, maybe you could hop on back to sitting outside the fence politely and stop trying to force what isn't going to happen right away.

But see, I **do** have a dog in this fight - the survival of Stratics and UO as long as they can. The fighting going on here does no one any good and it detracts from the initial attempt to put out in public what happened - right or wrong. It detracts from the overall community here because - as is pointed out - there is a us-versus-them attitude.

I respect JC because of UOGuide and the phenomenal amount of work in it and the level of completeness that doesn't seem to be matched anywhere. However, IMO his note about the Stratics request was uncalled for and only served to inflame things already very high. All he needed to do is NOT post any more.

Why can't this discussion get onto the REAL topic at hand ... setting up a more even-handed method of handling some of the underlying issues that led to the bans? Is that really so damn hard to do? I am not unaligned - I just choose to pick the side that wants to move on in a peaceful manner. never forgetting but working toward healing and getting back onto an even keel.

And when all this pain passes, what then? Huh? By then others may or may not have done things that these voices had no say in and once more "we weren't included!" is raised. You have been here long enough to know that. Also, I have had a screenie on Stratics since Dec 1998 in one form or another. Even when not with UO game I have browsed here as a guest or one of my former logins. So just because this screenie has fewer posts than nearly everyone doesn't make me totally ignorant of some things.

You do make sense but are you willing to work on how to better the boards in general if I start a separate thread?

 

[Ox AO]

Suspect SC would be the wrong venue for this type of case. Next stratics would have to prove financial harm I suspect that would be hard to do if not impossible. Slander, libel etc wile they sound really cool and people toss them around a lot, are among the hardest cases to win as it comes down to was it an opinion or stated as fact, then what was the financial harm. This is more like two kids with lemonade stand talking bad about each other lemonade and one sending the other C & D. If it more than that then it opens the door for all of stratics private conversation to be entered into public record that I am guessing they really don't want public, giving the opposing side even more ammo if not grounds for counter suit. Given that several people were already disparaged in private conversations there probably already are grounds for a suit based on the leaked documents. But again what was the harm and were these facts or opinions.

Yes, At this point that is how I view this. Kids running a lemonade stand. I would like to see another lemonade stand opened rather then dealing with these snotty children. Just to very clear. That means we would still sell lemonade just a different group that doesn't have bubbles popping out of their nose.

None of the children are angles.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Well that's funny cause I don't see your SUPPORTER banner or donation... care to donate to prove your point

Where is your Alumni banner, so you give a little money and that makes you more special than others? Everybody did what they could and we were all told that we would all be treated equally but we sure got fooled didn't we.

 

[Ox AO]

I'm not putting JC on trial

I was put i trial and convicted in the eyes of the snotnose children for words I never said.
I don't know how anyone can support that? Its aggravating.

 

[Lord Frodo]

am i the only one that sees this as a problem? i would never put my organization in a position where it is reliant on one person.

What I got out of that remark is that Nexus is free to do what he damn well pleases and is totally untouchable. Edited to change the word remake to remark sorry was in a hurry.

 

[Riyana]

I have not posted in response to this situation in large part because I did not wish to throw fuel on the fire. I still don't. I only wish to state the following:

To those whom I directly named in unflattering and/or insulting ways: I sincerely apologize.

I have long been a voice of leniency and fairness in my time at Stratics. I know some of you will not believe that, and wouldn't have regardless, but you are not privy to the full extent of conversations, arguing, analyzing, second-guessing, and agonizing over decisions that goes on behind the scenes. Like anyone, I have my own personal opinions, some very strong, but I do my best to keep those out of official Stratics decisions and communications, and to seek other opinions if and when I know mine might be colored by personal bias. Such conversations were the impetus behind the initial creation of the thread in the first place. There was a great deal of context from outside that thread that was missing--and its absence from the thread allowed both outside observers who obtained the information and inside staff who may have missed some or all of the conversations to understandably take the thread in a way that it was not truly intended and take actions based on those perceptions. It was always meant to be a launching point for more discussion and investigation, not a tribunal, though I do see that it looks that way in the absence of any other information.

A criticism that Stratics often faces is that habitual disruptive community members seem to stick around forever, with no apparent repercussions for their actions. It is, in my opinion, a fair criticism. Our moderation system is designed to be very lenient, and we also practice giving the benefit of the doubt in most borderline cases. It would be remiss of us NOT to discuss this dynamic and the effects it has on the site, as well as to compare notes and investigate potential problematic posters. However, in the piece of the discussion that was circulated out of context, I did not meet the standards to which I hold all Stratics users, and I apologize for that.

I came to Stratics for the UO community. I volunteered for the UO community. This incident has further fractured an already divided community, and I am truly sorry for the role I played in it. However, I made a commitment during the campaign and I am still committed to keeping the promises we made then as best we possibly can. Thank you to those of you who have extended the benefit of the doubt, and to those who have not or or are on the fence, I hope that I may re-earn your confidence in time.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Precisely. Besides, it's not the only "secret forum" (ooooh! juicy! scandalous! they have a *seeeeeeecret forum!*).

Last I checked, every guild has (or can have) a forum that only approved guildmembers can access. Governors have a forum - I don't recall if it is publicly visible now or not. Staff has a separate level of non-public forums, for, guess what, coordinating work on projects which are not yet public.

LOL good try Guilds have meeting to talk about guild items not UO items and the only power you have is to remove someone from a guild not UO. Stratics was not talking about an upcoming project they were building a perma ban list and they were using items not related to Stratics to do it. Two very different things here. This was not started by the head of Stratics but Nexus who in most people way of thinking would be a very dominate figure, to me he is just a bully and coerced others to do his bidding. Please show me where the owner of Stratics said to do this and please show all of us where it is written in Stratics Rules that they can do this and where it is written that info from other places other than Stratics can be used against us. People donated to a fund to make Stratics a community owned forum and now it appears that Dictator Nexus runs Stratics because he is a bully and everybody is afraid of him.

 

[Lord Nabin]

I have not posted in response to this situation in large part because I did not wish to throw fuel on the fire. I still don't. I only wish to state the following:

To those whom I directly named in unflattering and/or insulting ways: I sincerely apologize.

I have long been a voice of leniency and fairness in my time at Stratics. I know some of you will not believe that, and wouldn't have regardless, but you are not privy to the full extent of conversations, arguing, analyzing, second-guessing, and agonizing over decisions that goes on behind the scenes. Like anyone, I have my own personal opinions, some very strong, but I do my best to keep those out of official Stratics decisions and communications, and to seek other opinions if and when I know mine might be colored by personal bias. Such conversations were the impetus behind the initial creation of the thread in the first place. There was a great deal of context from outside that thread that was missing--and its absence from the thread allowed both outside observers who obtained the information and inside staff who may have missed some or all of the conversations to understandably take the thread in a way that it was not truly intended and take actions based on those perceptions. It was always meant to be a launching point for more discussion and investigation, not a tribunal, though I do see that it looks that way in the absence of any other information.

A criticism that Stratics often faces is that habitual disruptive community members seem to stick around forever, with no apparent repercussions for their actions. It is, in my opinion, a fair criticism. Our moderation system is designed to be very lenient, and we also practice giving the benefit of the doubt in most borderline cases. It would be remiss of us NOT to discuss this dynamic and the effects it has on the site, as well as to compare notes and investigate potential problematic posters. However, in the piece of the discussion that was circulated out of context, I did not meet the standards to which I hold all Stratics users, and I apologize for that.

I came to Stratics for the UO community. I volunteered for the UO community. This incident has further fractured an already divided community, and I am truly sorry for the role I played in it. However, I made a commitment during the campaign and I am still committed to keeping the promises we made then as best we possibly can. Thank you to those of you who have extended the benefit of the doubt, and to those who have not or or are on the fence, I hope that I may re-earn your confidence in time.

Thank You Riyana.

This type of message means a lot to our community. I appreciate everything you have said. You have always been a gracious well balanced voice in the community.

Thanks for taking the time to reach out to us in this manner.

 

[Lord Frodo]

This is two different issues. I'll address the latter. First and foremost, there are at least 2 threads on HOT which are discussing this same issue, which also contain leaked confidential information, and where various staff are being doxed and attacked. Locking and cleaning up those threads, including the stolen confidential information, would be a great step forward.

And maybe you should tell the owner of Stratics to clean her own house first and fire the Dictator Nexus that started this witch hunt. If the Dictator hadn't started this Witch Hunt in the first place then there would never have been any secret papers to leak. Stratics has hard facts, bans, warnings and such and those should be the only things used to ban anybody period and it should be in writing x# os As get you B and x# of Bs get you Cs and so on until the requirement is met to perma ban someone. This is not what happened, a personal Witch Hunt was instigated by a BULLY and Stratics got caught with its pants down.

 

[Ox AO]

Riyana

I don't see anything that suggest you might have made a mistake. Just the opposite.
You're continued lack of understanding why we're upset is aggravating to me.

Most of us don't 'disrupt' just because we can. There is a underlining reason for it.
You don't want to know or care to know. you just want us to shut up or go away.

 

[Obsidian]

Could you point to which forum directory the porn was moved to?

It was grotesque and without question a violation of not only the ROC but pure decency. It was immediately removed.

There are other mods here. My personal style is to let the discussion flow and I don't get in the way unless it is a clear violation. I feel as much a member of the community as I do a staff member. We are all members of the same community.

 

[Lord Frodo]

@Kayhynn, "volunteer agreement" and NDA are realistically equivalent. I've signed plenty in my time, ranging from a paragraph to a literal book in length. The important element is the confidentiality clause, which is present regardless of how you parse the document.

@Ox AO, In that theoretical reality, where confidential proprietary info is stolen and posted? Yes. But then, that is exactly what happened when hot-guild posted screenshots from the confidential and NDA-covered beta forums last fall.

As for all those claiming innocence for JC, I must say, look where this all started. Forget the list. I agree that the language in those posts could have been better. But get past that. Look at the stated reason WHY the list was started in the first place:


Clearly stated:

"This discussion has partially come about do [sic] to JC's latest round...."

What was JC's latest? Oh, right, he was encouraging people to try to further overwhelm the Stratics staff. You can twist his meaning here to seem innocent, but any such attempt is laughable:

Link (aka JC): "The Stratics staff appear to be having a really tough time moderating with the flood of PVP posts on the UHall. If you haven't posted, you should do so for that reason alone." [emphasis added]

This is only one of many instances of questionable behavior by JC. It's not limited to Stratics, either. As the owner of another UO site, I will publicly state that I have had multiple messages from JC wherein he has attacked me for not simply giving him all of the UO data I worked to collect and collate, instead of creating my own site. I have heard similar reports from at least two others who own UO info sites. As for UOGuide, JC runs it as a for-profit enterprise, and gives nothing to contributors. UOGuide also displays no license for any of its contributors, but rather, JC claims all copyright for any contributions. I agree, he is interested in building the UO community, but my experience has been that it is more for his own gain, not for the benefit of the community.

Having worked for the US Gov your little Doc is a joke and is nowhere near a NDA. I retired in 93 and I am still under NDAs signed way back then that could land me in Leavenworth and please stop with the "confidential proprietary info" ******** because "Witch Hunts" do not follow under that, I doubt that 99.9% of the stuff that the staff even talks about would fall under "confidential proprietary info" So you are in full support that Stratics can use any info gathered fro anywhere to dictate what it does with users of Stratics, I think a lot of people need to seriously think about using this site, myself included.

 

[Aran]

I hope that I may re-earn your confidence in time.

You lost mine a long time ago. This was just reaffirmation.

In fact, the second you became a moderator I was just waiting for you to find an opening to boot me.

 

[Lord Frodo]

I know that that was not the sole item contributing to JC's inclusion on the list. However, incitement, regardless of where it was done, remains the same action. He was posting specifically with the intent of damaging Stratics. For Stratics not to take notice would be a dereliction of duty by the officers of this site and its board.

And instead of the owner of Stratics talking to JC like an ADULT you support Dictator Nexus and his Witch Hunt that you try to tell everyone it should be considered "confidential proprietary info" THANK YOU.

 

[Ox AO]

It was grotesque and without question a violation of not only the ROC but pure decency. It was immediately removed.

There are other mods here. My personal style is to let the discussion flow and I don't get in the way unless it is a clear violation. I feel as much a member of the community as I do a staff member. We are all members of the same community.

Don't you feel any shame for what they have done to some of us? Honestly. I would like to know.