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Stratics: The "unvarnished" events of the past few days

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BrianFreud

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Really? Is private trash talk about annoying people in a professional scenario not universal? Anywhere I have ever worked there has always been plenty of "god this person is annoying" about customers, coworkers, random tangential people. It's just what happens. And lets face it, I think a lot of us find at least some of the posters on that list annoying as ****. I don't fault them for venting a bit.
Precisely. :) Besides, it's not the only "secret forum" (ooooh! juicy! scandalous! they have a *seeeeeeecret forum!*).

Last I checked, every guild has (or can have) a forum that only approved guildmembers can access. Governors have a forum - I don't recall if it is publicly visible now or not. Staff has a separate level of non-public forums, for, guess what, coordinating work on projects which are not yet public.
 

Ox AO

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How do we move forward from here - Let's keep it that way
A regressive is someone that can't see an issue from another persons prospective. (I can go into more details if you wish but this is the bases of a regressive)
I'm asking you to put it into your own words. Not for me but for you.

In your own words what did JC do wrong? That you believe he needs to clean up "all that crap on my(JC) side"
 

BrianFreud

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I like how you throw a fit over Clops leaking some ****ty "private" stuff.. Then you turn around and publicly post his contract, which has personal information about Sr Staff in it (Elinnie's full name), as well as IP adresses. Hypocrite much?
Just to keep things straight here, I'm not sure if Elenni and/or the senior staff approved posting that. However, Elenni and the other board members all made their real and full names public knowledge during the fundraiser efforts. No doxing happened here.

Also, for whoever it was saying that that wasn't an NDA, reread section 4. I know it was in fact an NDA, since I signed the exact same document.

 

BrianFreud

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In your own words what did JC do wrong? That you believe he needs to clean up "all that crap on my(JC) side"
This is two different issues. I'll address the latter. First and foremost, there are at least 2 threads on HOT which are discussing this same issue, which also contain leaked confidential information, and where various staff are being doxed and attacked. Locking and cleaning up those threads, including the stolen confidential information, would be a great step forward.
 

Ox AO

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separate discussion thread to toss around ideas for a way to implement a highly transparent/visible warning system to be used going forward?
I made this suggestion the first time about eight or nine years ago. Made it again last year.
Even modified it to put a tag in UO hall (warning content could get ugly)

Telling you they don't listen. It's their way or the highway.
 
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Ox AO

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where various staff are being doxed and attacked. Locking and cleaning up those threads, including the stolen confidential information, would be a great step forward.
Lets assume for a moment that the Stratics team did do something that you Brian knew was very wrong. Would it be wrong for you too show secured posts of what they did?
 
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Giggles

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So you moved it out of Uhall to create less traffic to the thread?
I think if that were the goal, we would have done that before it was at 6k+ views.
This, and the other locked topics, were all moved so they can be in one place, specific to the issue at hand. And not in a forum dedicated to UO related topics, which this has nothing to do with.
 
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Lord Nabin

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A regressive is someone that can't see an issue from another persons prospective. (I can go into more details if you wish but this is the bases of a regressive)
I'm asking you to put it into your own words. Not for me but for you.

In your own words what did JC do wrong? That you believe he needs to clean up "all that crap on my(JC) side"
I am good. Move on
 

Ox AO

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I like how you throw a fit over Clops leaking some ****ty "private" stuff.. Then you turn around and publicly post his contract, which has personal information about Sr Staff in it (Elinnie's full name), as well as IP adresses. Hypocrite much?
That is something i can agree with. NOT giving out private information. I don't see Elinnie name on HOT though.
 

The Craftsman

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I think if that were the goal, we would have done that before it was at 6k+ views.
This, and the other locked topics, were all moved so they can be in one place, specific to the issue at hand. And not in a forum dedicated to UO related topics, which this has nothing to do with.
And time to tuck it away in an obscure forum and hopefully let the thread die eh? Dont want your dirty laundry airing for too long on your flagship page. Youre fooling no one.
 

Lord Nabin

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That's the problem isn't it? you accused JC of "crap" (your word) now you say to move on.

I don't see that as good.
No. The problem is it's not fishing season

It is time for Solutions. You have an opportunity to be part of the solution.

Engaging in solutions or not is your choice
 

Ox AO

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No. The problem is it's not fishing season

It is time for Solutions. You have an opportunity to be part of the solution.

Engaging in solutions or not is your choice
You made it clear you don't even know the problem. If you don't know the chair is broken how do you fix it?

Giggles made it clear the solution. STFU and go away.
That is exactly what I will do and what I have done for years. Until I hear from the others what they would like to do since we're on our own.

There is no "we" in stratics. It's taken most of the others a long time to figure it out.
 
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Ox AO

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Face it Ox, you just ain't hanging out with the cool kids.
For years I felt I was on my own on this issue. I didn't even know there was HOT board until a couple days ago.
I can't imagine how many people left the game because of it.

To me it has always been a no brainier.
If you can't communicate your issue. What's the point of this site?
 

Kayhynn

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Just to keep things straight here, I'm not sure if Elenni and/or the senior staff approved posting that. However, Elenni and the other board members all made their real and full names public knowledge during the fundraiser efforts. No doxing happened here.

Also, for whoever it was saying that that wasn't an NDA, reread section 4. I know it was in fact an NDA, since I signed the exact same document.

I can read just fine. I also read the title of the document which said "Volunteer Agreement".

Let me share some legal wordings of an NDA from one of mine that is now invalid.

NON-DISCLOSURE & CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT

THIS AGREEMENT made and effective this 1st day of September 2011.

By and between [redacted], a corporation duly incorporated pursuant to the laws of the State of New Hampshire, having an office at [redacted] and [redacted] located at [redacted] (hereinafter referred to as “GS-NE"),

WHEREAS, [redacted] and GS-NE intend to discuss a possible business relationship;

WHEREAS, in the course of such discussions, and subsequently if an agreement is reached, the parties may disclose to each other, or such may become known to each other, confidential and proprietary information relating to their respective business plans, product research and development, customer and supplier relationship, project or sales opportunities, proposal or bid strategies, corporate strategies or other financial, commercial, technical or scientific matters;

WHEREAS, each party has agreed that, subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, it will maintain in confidence any and all confidential and proprietary information of the other as may be disclosed, or may become known, to it by the other during the negotiation or any resulting agreement and the term hereof;

NOW THEREFORE, in consideration of the premises and mutual covenants contained herein and for good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which is hereby acknowledged, the parties hereto agree as follows:

[[Skipping to pertinent information...some information skipped over includes definitions of what is considered to be confidential information, etc. ad nauseum]]

4.0 TERM

This Agreement shall commence on the effective date stated herein and, unless earlier terminated, shall continue in full force and effect for the period of two (2) years thereafter. All of the provisions of Sections 1.0 through to and including Section 3.0 relating to the obligations of confidentiality of the parties hereunder shall survive the expiration or termination of this Agreement and shall continue in full force and effect for the period of three (3) years thereafter.

[[Skipped data]]

7.2 BINDING NATURE AND ASSIGNMENT

This Agreement will be binding upon and for the benefit of the parties hereto and their respective successors and permitted assigns. Neither party may assign this Agreement or any of their rights or obligations hereunder or delegate the performance thereof to a third party without the prior written consent of the other party.

---------------------

It was then signed by myself as a consultant and by the president of the company at that time. It was later re-signed when I became a Director with the company. When the company was bought out and the NH company was dissolved and a new company created in Colorado, and then a new company created again in California, my NDA became invalid.

What you have is a volunteer agreement which protects to a certain extent, but is not a full blown NDA. I've signed enough NDA's and pseudo NDA's to know the difference. I've even talked to a lawyer about it to cover my ass. I've created my own NDAs for a company I work for. Ultimately a full NDA is legally binding and can have contractual, legal consequences if violated. In fact, I'm pretty sure (not positive) I signed a full blown NDA for Stratics back in 2004/2005 when I moved into upper level roles. It's also null and void now. A full blown NDA provides much better protection and a heavier legal weight.

All said, we're arguing technicalities here. There's no point to it other than to say if Gamer's Gambit wants to really protect themselves, get a real NDA.
 

Chanel #1

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Picking apart the NDA is splitting hairs at this point. Clops knew he was releasing sensitive and unfiltered communications retrieved from a forum that only few people had access to. He knew the information was not for public display. Regardless on how strong the NDA is, he made an agreement with the staff that he would keep communication in those NDA forums private.
 

BrianFreud

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@Kayhynn, "volunteer agreement" and NDA are realistically equivalent. I've signed plenty in my time, ranging from a paragraph to a literal book in length. The important element is the confidentiality clause, which is present regardless of how you parse the document.

@Ox AO, In that theoretical reality, where confidential proprietary info is stolen and posted? Yes. But then, that is exactly what happened when hot-guild posted screenshots from the confidential and NDA-covered beta forums last fall.

As for all those claiming innocence for JC, I must say, look where this all started. Forget the list. I agree that the language in those posts could have been better. But get past that. Look at the stated reason WHY the list was started in the first place:


Clearly stated:

"This discussion has partially come about do [sic] to JC's latest round...."

What was JC's latest? Oh, right, he was encouraging people to try to further overwhelm the Stratics staff. You can twist his meaning here to seem innocent, but any such attempt is laughable:

Link (aka JC): "The Stratics staff appear to be having a really tough time moderating with the flood of PVP posts on the UHall. If you haven't posted, you should do so for that reason alone." [emphasis added]

This is only one of many instances of questionable behavior by JC. It's not limited to Stratics, either. As the owner of another UO site, I will publicly state that I have had multiple messages from JC wherein he has attacked me for not simply giving him all of the UO data I worked to collect and collate, instead of creating my own site. I have heard similar reports from at least two others who own UO info sites. As for UOGuide, JC runs it as a for-profit enterprise, and gives nothing to contributors. UOGuide also displays no license for any of its contributors, but rather, JC claims all copyright for any contributions. I agree, he is interested in building the UO community, but my experience has been that it is more for his own gain, not for the benefit of the community.
 

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<looks around> I still see finger-pointing and a refusal or reluctance to try and create fair solutions to prevent this from happening in the future. P-ing contest comes to mind.

Do you want these boards to survive as support for our antiquated game or not? If not then go find the door and get out. Really.

Do you want to be part of a concerted effort to be more transparent in actions here or not? If not, find the door and leave. Really.

Good day, all. I go once more to find a new death robe. thanks.
 

Kayhynn

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What was JC's latest? Oh, right, he was encouraging people to try to further overwhelm the Stratics staff. You can twist his meaning here to seem innocent, but any such attempt is laughable:

Link (aka JC): "The Stratics staff appear to be having a really tough time moderating with the flood of PVP posts on the UHall. If you haven't posted, you should do so for that reason alone." [emphasis added]

This is only one of many instances of questionable behavior by JC. It's not limited to Stratics, either. As the owner of another UO site, I will publicly state that I have had multiple messages from JC wherein he has attacked me for not simply giving him all of the UO data I worked to collect and collate, instead of creating my own site. I have heard similar reports from at least two others who own UO info sites. As for UOGuide, JC runs it as a for-profit enterprise, and gives nothing to contributors. UOGuide also displays no license for any of its contributors, but rather, JC claims all copyright for any contributions. I agree, he is interested in building the UO community, but my experience has been that it is more for his own gain, not for the benefit of the community.
While his post isn't cool and definitely isn't kosher, it also didn't happen on Stratics. Punishing him for posts made on his forum would be like me punishing someone on UOForums for making a negative post over here on it. It's unfair and I wouldn't do it.

I've been in the same shoes, not with JC harassing me to put UOHomeDecor into their sites, but other sites doing so. But even then, that's not valid justification to punish him.

There's an old phrase - give someone enough rope to hang themselves with. Eventually the people you want removed from the site will cross the line and be justified. But do it within the ROC, not because of things that happen off the forums. Otherwise, you open the doors to a very slippery slope.
 

Picus at the office

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For years I felt I was on my own on this issue. I didn't even know there was HOT board until a couple days ago.
I can't imagine how many people left the game because of it.

To me it has always been a no brainier.
If you can't communicate your issue. What's the point of this site?
While I have given up on the game I still came here to read about the latest and greatest that UO has to offer(still paying for three accounts for some silly reason). I always hoped that things would change both here on the forum and in game but they never have.

I knew about the HOT forums and some others but they mostly spoke to an aspect of the game which I never had a draw(trash talk and ATL where I was a Napa guy). I fail to see though how any of these secondary forums had any impact upon this place. Stratics should have won the fight but near decades of the same heavy hand has all but killed this place. For years people have said it isn't a kind place unless you are on the inside and these events just say the same thing.

What was JC's latest? Oh, right, he was encouraging people to try to further overwhelm the Stratics staff. You can twist his meaning here to seem innocent, but any such attempt is laughable:

Link (aka JC): "The Stratics staff appear to be having a really tough time moderating with the flood of PVP posts on the UHall. If you haven't posted, you should do so for that reason alone." [emphasis added]

This is only one of many instances of questionable behavior by JC. It's not limited to Stratics, either. As the owner of another UO site, I will publicly state that I have had multiple messages from JC wherein he has attacked me for not simply giving him all of the UO data I worked to collect and collate, instead of creating my own site. I have heard similar reports from at least two others who own UO info sites. As for UOGuide, JC runs it as a for-profit enterprise, and gives nothing to contributors. UOGuide also displays no license for any of its contributors, but rather, JC claims all copyright for any contributions. I agree, he is interested in building the UO community, but my experience has been that it is more for his own gain, not for the benefit of the community.
Ok so he asked people to post here, I read the same thread and it wasn't worded in such a way that he commanded people to do so, some even said they couldn't care to be bothered. If anything people should have seen that post for what it was, stratics is/was poorly ran and narrow minded in the content they wish to allow. The "owners" of this place can continue to split people or they can allow open discussion.

I posted on UOguide for a while and never once thought I should get a penny, I did it simply because I had information that wasn't listed and stratics(which would have been my first choice) had done a poor job keeping anything updated.
 

BrianFreud

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While his post isn't cool and definitely isn't kosher, it also didn't happen on Stratics. Punishing him for posts made on his forum would be like me punishing someone on UOForums for making a negative post over here on it. It's unfair and I wouldn't do it.
I know that that was not the sole item contributing to JC's inclusion on the list. However, incitement, regardless of where it was done, remains the same action. He was posting specifically with the intent of damaging Stratics. For Stratics not to take notice would be a dereliction of duty by the officers of this site and its board.
 

Ox AO

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@Kayhynn,
Link (aka JC): "The Stratics staff appear to be having a really tough time moderating with the flood of PVP posts on the UHall. If you haven't posted, you should do so for that reason alone."
[emphasis added]
.
Protests against a policy is good even if the policy makers believe it's good policy.

There is four ways to view this:
1. Doing nothing as I have for years has only allowed bad policy to flourish.

2. What you don't want is someone that agrees with bad policy and does nothing about it. Even know they know it's wrong.

3. Since you're in a position that you don't believe the policy is wrong any action against that policy is wrong. This is a regressive positions.

4. Side with the policy. Yet, hear the grievance and come to some understanding (Note: I didn't say solution. Solutions comes long after understanding)
 

Merus

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I know that that was not the sole item contributing to JC's inclusion on the list. However, incitement, regardless of where it was done, remains the same action. He was posting specifically with the intent of damaging Stratics. For Stratics not to take notice would be a dereliction of duty by the officers of this site and its board.
Not sure I agree with this statement. Talking bad about Stratics in UO or on some other forums really doesn't have anything to do with Stratics RoC. Unless he actually came on Stratics and broke the rules, then I think action against him here is unwarranted. Likewise, anyone who read his comments on the other boards and came here and broke the RoC would have been subject to the Stratics rules.

I have no idea about any other issues with JC or anyone else, mearly commenting on the logic of using comments or actions from outside of Stratics to determine Stratics account status.
 

PaithanTheElf

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To be fair, that must be an edited version. Link did originally say something along the lines of "at the very least, the mods on stratics don't seem to know what to do with the flood of pvp posts" and he put a little smiley emoji next to it...the emoji is probably what made the post malicious.

Regardless though, look at the timeline. All those threads were started before Link even said anything. Further, there wasn't some massive influx of trolling or anything after he made that post.

Lastly, it's ridiculous to think anyone on Link's own boards even takes orders from him. We like the space he provides, that's it. Link pvp's with a fire element, he doesn't play or is even that close with anyone who posts regularly on his boards...
It is not an edited post.. he says it like 6-7 posts and 3 days later than the original post.
 

PaithanTheElf

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Obviously you missed this part

"For all you JC lovers that are about to flame me re read the last paragraph again, count to 10 and think about what I said first."

I have no problem with someone posting "legitimate issues and/or bugs" or constructive criticism. I do have a problem and so evidently does the Board of Director and many others with encouraging people to post on a forum because the form staff can't handle it.

Let's also recognize that the forum you referred to has gone un moderated for a very long time. Something JC stated himself. The environment there is must more caustic, for lack of a better word, than it is on Stratics. It is not the Stratics communities job to recognize that fact and accept it. It is your job to recognize that you need to tone it down or as a result end up with an action against you.
I have been pvping for the better part of 2 decades and have seen stuff not fixed for years on end. I finally start bringing up issues roughly in february of this year and you think I did so because link said so? That is highly laughable. I've never been a fan of him other than providing us with the hot boards. I am an actual pvper that understands the game and am bringing light to issues the staff is cluesless about.
 

Lord Nabin

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I have been pvping for the better part of 2 decades and have seen stuff not fixed for years on end. I finally start bringing up issues roughly in february of this year and you think I did so because link said so? That is highly laughable. I've never been a fan of him other than providing us with the hot boards. I am an actual pvper that understands the game and am bringing light to issues the staff is cluesless about.
Your statements have absolutely nothing to do with my post. Sorry if you took it that way. I can understand jumping into a thread this long and not having the full context of the situation at hand.
 

BrianFreud

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Not sure I agree with this statement. Talking bad about Stratics in UO or on some other forums really doesn't have anything to do with Stratics RoC. Unless he actually came on Stratics and broke the rules, then I think action against him here is unwarranted. Likewise, anyone who read his comments on the other boards and came here and broke the RoC would have been subject to the Stratics rules.
"Talking bad" isn't what I'm talking about here.

First, he did, repeatedly, break rules here at Stratics, relating to RMT among other things. This already has been stated earlier in this thread.

Second, the statement by JC was not "talking bad about Stratics". It was an active encouragement of actions which would exacerbate a situation in which, by JC's own words, "the Stratics staff [already] appear to be having a really tough time moderating". That isn't "talking bad". That is incitement towards an action which is implied to directly cause Stratics harm.



(Apologies for the image quality; it's a screencap of a screencap of a screencap. :p)
 

Aran

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It looks like a sarcastic knock on the mods of Stratics while giving advice to me, not "incitement"
 

Aran

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Who's speculating? I'm telling you how it reads from a point of view that isn't trying its damnedest to find offense.
 

BrianFreud

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Who's speculating? I'm telling you how it reads from a point of view that isn't trying its damnedest to find offense.
I can understand your point of view. However, it's a stretch to get there based on what he actually said. Would you agree that some could interpret it the way I describe, especially when that same person has a prior history of similar actions? It's rather like someone asking if it's ok to bring guns to the 20th anniversary party. Some might choose to view it as an honest and legitimate question. Others, based on prior statements by that same person, might choose to view it as a veiled threat. I can understand both interpretations, but this is where the self-moderation I earlier recommended comes into play. Before someone makes that "sarcastic knock" or asks that "honest question", most people would first choose to consider how others might misinterpret their words, and perhaps decide that that sarcasm or question might not be in good taste to post.

Can you at least see that the mods here might view it in the way I describe? If so, you have to thus admit that it was justified for them to be concerned, and therefore, that there was valid reason for them to include that comment along side all other prior actions by that same individual.
 

Aran

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A person desperate to find offense could read it that way, if they're really looking for a reason to be mad at someone, sure. A normal person? No. So yes, I can see why Stratics mods would read it that way.

And there's zero comparison to me simply asking if a building has a no firearms policy to this. One is asking a legitimate question about a venue before embarking on what might be a multi-day trip, one is poking fun at someone.

Well, no, I take that back. There is a comparison - You'd have to go out of your way intentionally to find offense with either.
 

Lord Nabin

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A person desperate to find offense could read it that way, if they're really looking for a reason to be mad at someone, sure. A normal person? No. So yes, I can see why Stratics mods would read it that way.
Knock it off you are just being down right silly.

It's cut and dry

Frankly I was shocked to see a statement like that from JC. Especially after his visible support for the community purchase. You do not have to be focused on finding something wrong to clearly see that it was a directly encouraged threat to the functionality of the Stratics team.

Regardless of whether anyone actually followed through with his suggestion.

While I do not support something outside Stratics affecting your Stratics membership.

I am 100% for and expect the Stratics team to take action against a member for something outside Stratics that constitutes a direct threat to the Staff, a Member, or the integrity in any way shape or form of the site.

Really that is just common sense

Now we all make mistakes so I don't hold it against JC however there clearly are some consequences to deal with.
 

Aran

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Knock it off you are just being down right silly.

It's cut and dry

Frankly I was shocked to see a statement like that from JC. Especially after his visible support for the community purchase. You do not have to be focused on finding something wrong to clearly see that it was a directly encouraged threat to the functionality of the Stratics team.

Regardless of whether anyone actually followed through with his suggestion.

While I do not support something outside Stratics affecting your Stratics membership.

I am 100% for and expect the Stratics team to take action against a member for something outside Stratics that constitutes a direct threat to the Staff, a Member, or the integrity in any way shape or form of the site.

Really that is just common sense

Now we all make mistakes so I don't hold it against JC however there clearly are some consequences to deal with.
Oh my god, how could I have forgotten, only Lord Nabin's interpretations of anything are correct! There is no room for dissent when Lord Nabin, King of The World speaks.
 

Finley Grant

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Well. How would you Name that happenings?

If it looks like..
Smells like..
Its most likely...

But thanks for your headsup
 

kelmo

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Aran... You have been banned from almost every forum you have ever participated in. I really have nothing more to add.
 

Spartan

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<looks at two individuals> If you two do not shut the #$%^#$ up, I would say you're due for some demerits at least. And if I had the ability you certainly would get them. Some constructive community you are!

Jeez ... I must be masochistic to come back here for this crud.

Edit in: If you wanna know who I mean, PM me.
 

Merus

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"Talking bad" isn't what I'm talking about here.

First, he did, repeatedly, break rules here at Stratics, relating to RMT among other things. This already has been stated earlier in this thread.

Second, the statement by JC was not "talking bad about Stratics". It was an active encouragement of actions which would exacerbate a situation in which, by JC's own words, "the Stratics staff [already] appear to be having a really tough time moderating". That isn't "talking bad". That is incitement towards an action which is implied to directly cause Stratics harm.



(Apologies for the image quality; it's a screencap of a screencap of a screencap. :p)
I think you missed the point of my post. The stratic's RoC already has the capacity to deal with rules that are broken here. If rules had been broken in the past, then they should have been enforced. If they weren't, that is no one else's fault.

The same goes for rules that might be broken in the future. Let's say for a moment that someone did in fact, openly and blatently, encourage people to come to the stratics forums and post comments in violation of the RoC. WHEN they do in fact come to stratics and make the posts, THEN you enforce the rules. Trying to enforce the stratics RoC for rules that might get broken in the future based on comments made somewhere besides stratics, IMO, crosses the line.
 

Poo

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this thread and this situation is like watching a episode of lost.
JC just found that hatch.... he just found the friggin hatch!!!!!
 
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