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Sadok's Sampire Template

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
I see your current template is not only far from the strongest all-rounded tank but also it mitigates damage so bad that you can't even kill UEV without some way of healing/life-leaching.

Bushido Paladin can easily do this - I just made a video on TC - I start the fight with 140 HP and still have 80 HP just before killing blow (and got full HP from honor right after killing blow). My character had 4 HPR (Slither and Crimsy) and didn't use any way to heal/life-leach. This is true mitigating damage while your char completely relays on life leaching.
I hope you see now that bushido paladin not only better tank in most cases but also it often mitigates damage better.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Show us your ability to mitigate damage - kill UEV without ANY way of healing (so no leaching life).

Your words are just words. They are not confirmed by experience. Even more - the game practice refutes your words.
Two things that again show your complete lack of comprehension for what is being said:

First. He said nothing can mitigate more damage (I don't personally agree, but that falls under a separate and constructively phrased conversation I began with him above, but that is irrelevant), however, you somehow jumped from 'mitigating more damage' to 'being able to kill things without any method of healing'.

However, despite you, still, being wrong, it is possible to kill UEV's without healing. Here's one example: Discord. Here's another: Provoke. Both can fit on dexxer templates. Here's another: Regen/Mirror Images.

Second. How would you know what his experience is? (This is what's called a rhetorical question, you don't need to answer it, as everyone already knows the answer...) You don't.
 

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
No you are not, as you said yourself English is not your native language, and every pointless argument you have created in this thread has been based on your misinterpretation of what is being said.
So you are continuing claiming that "I suggest this template" and "It is the best tank template in the game" mean the same?

Ordinarily I start from the perspective of assuming that majorities are usually wrong, however, in this thread, the fact that every single person disagrees with you should to a rational mind suggest that you are not quite grasping the conversation.
Just read the topic more carefully.

you somehow jumped from 'mitigating more damage' to 'being able to kill things without any method of healing'.
Do you really can't understand why? It seems you are just trolling because it is so obvious.
My character mitigates more damage so it needn't to heal or life-leach. His character mitigates less damage so it is going to die without healing or life leaching.
Well, specially for challenged persons we could just count damage taken.

However, despite you, still, being wrong, it is possible to kill UEV's without healing. Here's one example: Discord. Here's another: Provoke. Both can fit on dexxer templates. Here's another: Regen/Mirror Images.
lol.. I know it is possible to kill UEV without healing. I said it myself before. And I did it myself before. And any people can easily do it with a proper template.
If you do read posts before answering then show me where is discord or provoke or ninjitsu in his template.
 

sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Disagree, it's one of the best, interested to know your view then on Ninjitsu/Mirror Images? Or would you not class that as mitigation?
I considered Mirror Images. Mirror Images would definitively be classified as mitigation since it's a type of avoidance. This can be related to blocking damage as well, because it deals avoiding 100% of the damage, not just part of the damage.

From my understanding, the chance for a melee attack to hit a mirror image is based on the level of Ninjitsu that character has. I don't have any formulas to go by, but I'm assuming at 120 Ninjitsu that the chance for a melee attack to be re-routed to a mirror image is around 90%+ and I'm also assuming at around 60 Ninjitsu that the chance is probably around 35%

Now, to dump 120 points into Ninjitsu solely for Mirror Images would be silly. The rest of the Ninjitsu abilities are not very useful in PVM. However, picking up just enough Ninjitsu to get Mirror Images off (60) you could drop parry to 60. This would reduce your chance to block by 15% (18% with 2-handed weapon.) Don't forget lowering your chance to block also lowers your chance to Counter-Attack (part of DPS, discussed later.)

By going just by the percentages of avoidance, it does indeed look like it could be worth it. If RNG permits it could be an improvement to mitigation in this template. So like Attune Weapon, it is definitely an ability that would improve damage mitigation. There are some reasons why Attune Weapon and Mirror Images are not in this template.You also have to factor in actually using the ability during your combat routine. Let's discuss that.

First off Mirror Images can be interrupted. You can benefit from up to 4 Faster Casting and 6 Faster Casting Recovery with Mirror Images, but to get that benefit you'd have to fit that on your suit (reducing other skills/stats that most likely attribute to your DPS.) So now we're trying to fit FC/FCR onto the suit, just for Mirror Images. If we don't have FC/FCR, our casting attempts are likely to be interrupted, best strategy would probably be to pull out of combat and cast them, also reducing in overall DPS done.

Do I think adding Mirror Images to this template would boost mitigation? I do, however in my opinion, the negatives out-weight the positives.
 

sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
My character mitigates more damage so it needn't to heal or life-leach. His character mitigates less damage so it is going to die without healing or life leaching.
...and you continue to make false statements with zero information to support them.

@CorwinXX I had a fun little experiment with an unbound energy vortex.

I simply let it swing at me, sat there and did nothing to it. I used nothing but Evasion as that is an ability that attributes to my mitigation. I didn't even use feint, it just wasn't needed.

I could sit on an UEV from server-up til server-down, not attacking it and I stay alive.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
So you are continuing claiming that "I suggest this template" and "It is the best tank template in the game" mean the same?
He gave his view, you took it as fact, and have pointlessly argued about it ever since. Because you don't understand what is being said.

My character mitigates more damage so it needn't to heal or life-leach. His character mitigates less damage so it is going to die without healing or life leaching.
You don't know this.

If you do read posts before answering then show me where is discord or provoke or ninjitsu in his template.
I wasn't talking about his template. As you jumped to something completely unrelated to the topic of this thread (killing UEV's without healing) the answer follows the same thread.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Do I think adding Mirror Images to this template would boost mitigation? I do, however in my opinion, the negatives out-weight the positives.
It is exactly skill -30. So 120 Ninjitsu gives 90% chance for the attack to be diverted.

I think many of the Ninjitsu abilities are useful in PvM, especially Cat/Dog/Unicorn/Frog & Serpent. High HPR gives good scope for staying alive and works through Poison/Bleed/Mortal without requiring any action.

I agree on the Counter Attack issue. But comparing the points in Bushido+Parry with just Ninjitsu I don't see how it's a waste when it's less points investment.

Wasn't aware that they can be interrupted, that must be newish, however, I don't think that's a huge problem. I can cast Discord Masteries while staying toe to toe Medusa for example.

I agree it sacrifices DPS, but in terms of pure mitigation, not getting hit 90% of the time while still swinging I think is highly underrated.

Anyway, thanks for your answer!
 

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
He gave his view, you took it as fact, and have pointlessly argued about it ever since. Because you don't understand what is being said.
He gave his view and I just pointed that his view (one sentence that I quoted) is wrong. If you like more that way then you may count that I just gave my opinion about his template.
Well, explain me what does "This is hands down the strongest all-around tank template in the game."

I wasn't talking about his template. As you jumped to something completely unrelated to the topic of this thread (killing UEV's without healing) the answer follows the same thread.
You see that here is you that person that don't understand what other people say. It must be obvious that when he post "my template mitigate the best" and I say "no - you even can't kill UEV" I spoke about his template. And not any of his templates but the template about which it said "the best".

You don't know this.
I hope he will show to me... to us.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
He gave his view and I just pointed that his view (one sentence that I quoted) is wrong. If you like more that way then you may count that I just gave my opinion about his template.
Well, explain me what does "This is hands down the strongest all-around tank template in the game."
Facts are right or wrong. Views are just views. To claim a view is wrong makes your view sound like you think it is fact. The sentence you quoted misses out the entire context of the post, which is that 'he believes/in his opinion' it is the best.

You see that here is you that person that don't understand what other people say. It must be obvious that when he post "my template mitigate the best" and I say "no - you even can't kill UEV" I spoke about his template. And not any of his templates but the template about which it said "the best".
Or I used the logic you were using against him, against you. What logic? The logic where you took what was said literally, out of context and then argued about a meaning it didn't have.
 

Ender

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Lmao did you just say he can't kill UEVs? Where are you getting this stuff from, man
 

sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I think many of the Ninjitsu abilities are useful in PvM, especially Cat/Dog/Unicorn/Frog & Serpent. High HPR gives good scope for staying alive and works through Poison/Bleed/Mortal without requiring any action.
Can't use any ability/spell while in animal form that's why I didn't consider it a viable ability to use in PVM combat.

I agree it sacrifices DPS, but in terms of pure mitigation, not getting hit 90% of the time while still swinging I think is highly underrated.
Also you stop swinging while you're casting it. (justa fyi)

I hope he will show to me... to us.
You go ahead and post something that you'd like me to do (by doing it yourself, also have your skills showing please) and I'll make an effort to put a video up, for your amusement.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Can't use any ability/spell while in animal form that's why I didn't consider it a viable ability to use in PVM combat.

Also you stop swinging while you're casting it. (justa fyi)
It's an entirely different approach. A lot of monsters counter attack, so when you're relying on fast consistent hits landing, you're going to be getting countered more. If by the same token you use a slow higher base damage weapon (talking here of the combination of Cat/Dog Form for 40 HPR with Images) you recover more between counter attacks and can just do normal hits while the monster stands there doing nothing. In fights where the monster can freeze you in some unbreakable way having 90% chance that they'll miss and lose target gives a lot of breathing room, and you're still regaining a large chunk of health while it's happening. You can go in and out of Forms and put Chivalry spells and Bard Masteries on. I wouldn't say it's exactly a sacrifice on the suit you just build it differently.

The Stone Form dexxer I made for the Slasher years ago still incorporated 100 LRC onto a full dexxer suit, and that was before legendary artifacts and reforging.

Wasn't aware that you now stop while casting it either, but again, you're less reliant on hitting.

I've used it a lot in PvP and PvM, in PvP people often give up because they can't get through. I used it on a Stealth Thrower on Europa a few years ago, with no casting, and took out all the group doing Meph (they were noobs so not vital to the story), and then solo'd the champ. For a ranged Stealther to solo Meph struck me as rather potent, considering that the only skills in play were 120 wep/90 Tact/80 Heal/80 Anat/120 Ninja/60 Chiv. Just standing there EoO + Images. I know that if I had been there on a sampire that fight would not have been as easy, one bad run of being frozen and hit and I'd be following my ghostly victims out to run around the Wrong mountain looking for that Healers that's never there when you need it.

Also used it when first setting up on that shard, farming Doom, with little more than 7x GM, a Virtue Suit and a 10th Anni Sword (the whole setup was Blessed/self repair so I didn't need to leave Doom until I got an Arty - and I got an Orny no less!).

Seen it used to great effect vs Shimmering, and Berserkers.

Anyway, not arguing with you, just feel it's undervalued. It's definitely a different play style but it has places where it shines like most things.
 

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Facts are right or wrong. Views are just views. To claim a view is wrong makes your view sound like you think it is fact. The sentence you quoted misses out the entire context of the post, which is that 'he believes/in his opinion' it is the best.
When someone says "this template better for me" I can't argue. When someone says "this is the best tank template" or "this is the best damage mitigating template" I can argue. There is a difference between "my most favorite" and "the best".
"The best" means "better than any other" in any context.

For example,
1. He posted: "There is no template that can mitigate more damage than this one"
2. You posted: "Template with 120 Ninjitsu can mitigate more damage" and all agreed with this - so you proved that his statement was wrong.
3. He posted: "to dump 120 points into Ninjitsu solely for Mirror Images would be silly" - but this doesn't affect on verity of his first statements. a template in your counter-argument needn't be good, it just must be able to mitigate more damage.

The same with his statements "the strongest all-rounded tank template".
 

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
You go ahead and post something that you'd like me to do (by doing it yourself, also have your skills showing please) and I'll make an effort to put a video up, for your amusement.
I hope I understood your correctly that if I post my video you post your's one?
 

sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I hope I understood your correctly that if I post my video you post your's one?
You have 120 Bushido and 120 Parry... and instead of using a leaf blade you're using a bladed staff.

What exactly do you think is going to happen in my video that is going to be different than yours @CorwinXX ?
 

sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You do realize that the only difference between what you and I will be doing in the videos, are the weapons we're holding.

In which case, I will always take less damage because I have the ability to use feint.
 

sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I see your current template is not only far from the strongest all-rounded tank but also it mitigates damage so bad that you can't even kill UEV without some way of healing/life-leaching.
OK so not only was this 100% false, I didn't have to use Evasion at all, and I used Feint for amusement (wasn't needed to survive.)

(as of 10:29PM EST. the video is still being processed)

Leaf Blade Kill Time:
4:07

Double Axe Kill Time:
2:05

Dude I'm really tired of arguing... Can you please explain what point you're trying to make? Because this demonstration, shows nothing but DPS.
 
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CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
What exactly do you think is going to happen in my video that is going to be different than yours @CorwinXX ?
I expect your char is die or run away or heal.

In which case, I will always take less damage because I have the ability to use feint.
I don't think so. If you can - it's so easy to prove - just make a video.


Dude I'm really tired of arguing... Can you please explain what point you're trying to make? Because this demonstration, shows nothing but DPS.
Stop trash posting. Just show me how you is mitigating damage with the template in this topic. No disco, no healing, no double axe. Use skills/suit/weapons you have posted. If you think you need to change something in your template to mitigate more damage than you confirm that your words was wrong:
There is no template that can mitigate more damage than this one (with the exception of the Spellweaving Spell: Attune Weapon.)
 

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Lmao did you just say he can't kill UEVs? Where are you getting this stuff from, man
Because I asked him several times and he didn't answered. Or tried to fool me some way. He just can't show me a video how he does it. So he can't do it.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
When someone says "this template better for me" I can't argue. When someone says "this is the best tank template" or "this is the best damage mitigating template" I can argue. There is a difference between "my most favorite" and "the best".
"The best" means "better than any other" in any context.
He doesn't need to state it specifically that it is his opinion for it to be understood that way. It's like when children argue and say "that's YOUR opinion!" like it somehow proves the other person wrong, of course it's their opinion, who else's opinion would you talk in.

It's why people don't write 'imo' after every sentence, it's a given.

Taking things literally gives them a different meaning. An example that (bizzarely) cropped up in my rl once was a conversation I had with someone about Martin Luthor King, they did not understand the difference between literal and figurative speech, and it was clear that he thought MLK actually had a dream (as in had been asleep and was relaying to people what he had thought about), rather than saying it figuratively to mean he had a hope/ideal that one day yada yada yada...

For example,
1. He posted: "There is no template that can mitigate more damage than this one"
2. You posted: "Template with 120 Ninjitsu can mitigate more damage" and all agreed with this - so you proved that his statement was wrong.
3. He posted: "to dump 120 points into Ninjitsu solely for Mirror Images would be silly" - but this doesn't affect on verity of his first statements. a template in your counter-argument needn't be good, it just must be able to mitigate more damage.

The same with his statements "the strongest all-rounded tank template".
That is incorrect. Again, you are not picking up on the context of the conversation, we have a difference of opinion on the usefuless of Ninjitsu. That was constructively discussed. I did not 'prove him wrong' and was not trying to. I asked his opinion on it, he gave it, I then elaborated on mine. It's not a case of he or I is right or wrong, it is a case of sharing information, so that other people reading it can go 'hm I didn't think of that!' (on his or my points) and decide for themselves, and hopefully (imo) come up with some wacky combination that will be the next greatest template to play, as that is a lot of the fun of the game (imo).

Your contribution by comparison can be paraphrased as 'there are only a few set templates that work and this isn't one of them'. You're having an argument over something that wasn't even said (not in the way you think).
 

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
It's why people don't write 'imo' after every sentence, it's a given.
Not in this case because he is repeating it again and again. Every time when I say him that this is not the strongest tank template and is not most mitigating template he say "no, it is the strongest/the most". When I person keeps "imo" in his mind he doesn't react such way.

That is incorrect.
You are not right. What I was saying is correct. It names "logic". If you open any book about logic you will see that one counter example refute "always/for each" statements.
 

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
OK so not only was this 100% false, I didn't have to use Evasion at all, and I used Feint for amusement (wasn't needed to survive.)

Dude I'm really tired of arguing... Can you please explain what point you're trying to make? Because this demonstration, shows nothing but DPS.
This demonstration shows two things:

1. You have tried to fool me once more.
We compare damage mitigation - not ability to heal/regen/etc. It's nice that you can restore 27 hp in 10 seconds but this is not damage mitigation. (@2:40 111 hp, @2:50 138 hp)

2. My char mitigated damage almost 3 times better.
I got about 160 damage during the fight. You got about 440 damage during the fight.

Additional notes:
There is not any word about refinement in your template-guide. Have you crafted/borrowed new suit specially for this video?
According to template you must have 100 Resisting Spells but in the video you have 100 Anatomy insted. Have you changed skills specially for this video?

p.s. This experiment is about damage mitigation. DPS doesn't matter.

p.p.s. As to DPS I have posted on this forum ... it took me ~2:15 to kill UEV solo with one of my characters (without any help like disco from other account). I used a Double Axe as well (not the fastest way to do it but it was not a "record try").
 

sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I used feint 2 times, and evasion 0 times. You had to keep Evasion up almost 100% of the time and were reduced to half life at one point. We both have 120 Bushido, we both have 120 Parry except I'm using a leaf blade where I can use feint. Your logic makes ZERO sense. It's like talking to a brick wall. You used Evasion the entire fight, I used feint twice.

This video did nothing but compare DPS - which is what I stated prior to making the video, during the making of the video, and I'm saying it again after I made the video.

YOU = 120 BUSH 120 PARRY, EVASION
ME = 120 BUSH 120 PARRY, EVASION, FEINT

You are capable of logical thinking, correct? I'm not trying to be rude or insulting, but at this point I really look stupid for debating you because your basically trolling me. I have an extra ability called FEINT and it allows me to take 50% less damage. That would be called a damage mitigating ability. You take 2 exact people but give only one the ability to Feint. Who is going to mitigate more damage Corwin?

Yea I have Anatomy, you should go read the first post over again, mainly the where I mention taking off Resist and putting on Anatomy for fights with no spells. But, you have 120 Parry? All the templates I've seen you post have you at 60 Parry.

Additional Notes:
Corwin, I'm not going to make another suit to appease you.
 
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sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
@CorwinXX Your only argument in this entire thread is DPS. If you kill something faster, you take less damage before it dies. Sure Corwin I can agree with that. That is not mitigating damage, my friend. Not one post you've made in this entire thread has anything to do with mitigating damage. Your best offense is good defense, not the other way around.
 
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CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Your only argument in this entire thread is DPS. If you kill something faster, you take less damage before it dies.
DPS doesn't matter in this case. I got 160 damage in 3 min 45 sec, you got 440 damage in 4 min. 43 damage per minute taken against 110 damage per minute taken.

You used Evasion the entire fight, I used feint twice.
Feel free to use feint and evasion as much as you need. May be you even be able to reduce damage taken to 320 - it just 2x more than my char took.

You take 2 exact people but give only one the ability to Feint.
No-no. We have two different chars. Do you want me teach you how to mitigate damage? I'll do if you want. It's not a secret.

Who is going to mitigate more damage Corwin?
Surely I am. I'm sorry but when I tell you theory you don't understand and don't trust me. So I don't want to explain why I take less damage. So I leave it to practice as an unbeatable argument. Show me how much damage you can mitigate using your template.

Yea I have Anatomy, you should go read the first post over again, mainly the where I mention taking off Resist and putting on Anatomy for fights with no spells. But, you have 120 Parry? All the templates I've seen you post have you at 60 Parry.
I posted 7 or 8 my template for last few years and non of the has 60 parry. But this doesn't matter. I need to show you a template that mitigate better than subj and it needn't to be a template that I use.
I even didn't taken my Disco Swordsman that mitigate damage better than Bushido Paladin. And I used suit that was disined for anther template so I have 60 useless skill points and 20 useless SSI on jewels. I also killed only one UEV and as you can notice even forgot to cast evasion at beginning.

Corwin, I'm not going to make another suit to appease you.
Could you post total stats of your suit?
You didn't mentioned refinement/eaters and you said that regens are not necessary.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
You are not right.
You have not grasped the conversation I had with him. Just as you have not grasped the conversations he has had with anyone else.

People aren't required to logically address any/every point you think you've made, least of all when you have not understood what happened in the first place, just because you think they should.

Your understanding of English makes further explanation pointless.

You seem to believe that you understood a conversation two English speaking people had, better than they did themselves, despite the fact that it did not result in an argument, you believe it was one.

Frankly you are delusional.
 

sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
It's clear he has no idea what damage mitigation is. He keeps throwing the term around like it's damage done. It's either a language barrier or he's stubborn.
 

sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Surely I am. I'm sorry but when I tell you theory you don't understand and don't trust me. So I don't want to explain why I take less damage. So I leave it to practice as an unbeatable argument. Show me how much damage you can mitigate using your template.
I am sorry that you think you take less damage over someone that uses feint. You are wrong and you have nothing in your template to show me that I haven't already done.

The video proves nothing @CorwinXX. I stood there and spammed Armor Ignore, not using feint or evasion. You dropped below 100 Hit Points, I never hit 100 Hit Points. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing.

Show me where you can take a hit from an Unbound Energy Vortex and get hit for 5 or 6 damage. You can't, because you don't use feint. Changing damage taken from 11, down to 5 - the process in which this was done is an example of damage mitigation. Feint will make the difference from getting hit by 200, to getting hit by 100. Whether you like it or not, someone taking a hit for 200 damage and using Feint is going to live, while the other person not using feint (you) will simply die.

So if I get hit by an Unbound Energy Vortex for 5 damage, and you get hit for 11 damage. Who is mitigating more damage @CorwinXX ? I really don't need your answer, it's a rhetorical question. This is fact. 5 < 11.

The only difference your in your template from mine, is you're using a two-handed weapon and blocking for +5% over a one-handed weapon. This is not enough to justify sacrificing Feint, which reduces damage taken by 50% and lasts 6 seconds, and that could also be kept up for an entire fight.

You need to read this clearly and acknowledge it because I, again, am done repeating myself to the brick wall.

Over-all Damage Taken <> Damage Mitigation

If you'd like me to teach you what Damage Mitigation I'd be glad to do so. We've only went over it like 20 times so far but I can go over it again if you did not grasp the concept. At this point you're really just making yourself look silly.
 
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CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
The video proves nothing
Video shows that I took 160 damage while you took 440.

You dropped below 100 Hit Points, I never hit 100 Hit Points.
Because I played fairly and didn't used healing (except 4hpr on artifacts - slither and crimsy) and you cheated and healed a lot of damage.

The only difference your in your template from mine, is you're using a two-handed weapon and blocking for +5% over a one-handed weapon. This is not enough to justify sacrificing Feint, which reduces damage taken by 50% and lasts 6 seconds, and that could also be kept up for an entire fight.
Sorry but your math is wrong because you don't take in account all factors that affects. If you think you can mitigate more damage than me - make new video to prove it. (But show your stuff so we could see that you don't cheat again).

Over-all Damage Taken <> Damage Mitigation
<Damage Taken> = <Damage done by opponent> - <Damage Mitigation>
Providing that opponents had the same ability to do damage we get: I mitigated 300 damage more than you.

If you'd like me to teach you what Damage Mitigation I'd be glad to do so.
How can you teach me if you even is not able to kill UEV without using healing abilities?

Corwin, I'm not going to make another suit to appease you.
You needn't. On your previous video with this char you had only 2 hpr (also more stamina and less mana) and (I believe) no damage eaters. Just use the suit you used before. Or I can give you the suit I used on TC.

p.s. Could you tell how did you heal? It looks like 10 hpr and 30 energy eater but I can be wrong here.
 

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
You have not grasped the conversation I had with him.
Stop, stop, stop. I didn't commented your conversation and didn't said what you talked about. I just pointed that you confirmed the fact that with Ninjitsu you can mitigate more damage than subj template. And this facts is prove that there is at least one template that mitigate damage better than subj template.
 

sibble

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Video shows that I took 160 damage while you took 440.
It also shows that you struggled and had to keep up Evasion the entire time. What did I do during my video Corwin? Did I do nothing but laugh the entire time? Yup, I believe I did! :)

If I don't use Feint, then what does the video prove? Do you not see why I think you're trolling?

If you really cared about debating your point so much, you'd bring up the fact that I didn't use Feint, because after all, that's what this discussion is about, isn't it? You think Feint is useless, thus my template does not mitigate damage (which is wrong.) So if I didn't use Feint, how do you think the video I posted helps your case? Logic? This is why the video proves nothing and why I think you're trolling and/or taking this personally.

<Damage Taken> = <Damage done by opponent> - <Damage Mitigation>
LOL where did this come from? You cannot put a value to Damage Mitigation, because it is a type, not a variable. While your concept of it is correct, there is no formula to represent it.
 
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CorwinXX

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If I don't use Feint, then what does the video prove?
You didn't used feint because even if you use it you still take more damage than I took. You know this but you don't want accept it publicly.

You cannot put a value to Damage Mitigation, because it is a type, not a variable.
Ok. Replace "Damage Mitigation" by "amount of mitigated damage".

So if I didn't use Feint, how do you think the video I posted helps your case? Logic?
Well, since you don't smart enough to do simple arithmetic I will explain you:

Against melee opp Evasion just increases block by 50%.
For your template it means 27% less damage 25-30% of time (30% with 0 ping/reaction delay). It is about 7.5% of hits.
Even with Anatomy 27% less damage 35-40% of time. It is about 10% of hits.
So at average you could mitigate 3 hits with your original template and 4 hits with Anatomy.
(If you don't know theory then simply go and count how many hits I evaded. But remember that 2/3 of them I would blocked even without Evasion.)

Now it is the more difficult part:
(40 - 4) = 37 * 6 = 216 > 160... and even 36 * 5 = 180 > 160
Even with feint and evasion you can't do as well as I did. And in practice due to some side effects of using feint you will die before you finish UEV (if you don't cheat - means don't use healing abilities).
Also keep in your mind that I can craft jewels and weapon that suits for the template I used and that monster and get even less hits... may be ~12.


Well, since you just don't understand even easiest things I'm saying (or pretend that you don't understand) I stop comment you posts because it is just waste of time.
If you you want to prove that you mitigate more damage then stop trash talking and simply go and kill one UEV using your template without cheating.
It will take just 5 minutes to make a video and 5 minutes to upload it. It is much less then you spend posting your wrong math.

Without meeting means:
- no hp regen except 4 hpr from Trinket and Crimsy
- no damage eater of any kind
- items with mods you stated in the first post
- no other ways of healing (remember that every one see your hp changing and can compare it with 4hpr)
- show your equipment so we see you don't cheat
- don't speak so we could hear game sounds
To help you to do it let it will be allowed:
- using refinement (although you didn't mentioned it in your post - so it is not a part of your template)
- using anatomy (although you didn't mentioned that you sometimes use anatomy in your post... just said that someone else who want dps may use anatomy)

Remember that this experiment is about damage mitigation - not hp restoring. I didn't used healing abilities.

Good bye and good luck.
 

sibble

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You didn't used feint because even if you use it you still take more damage than I took. You know this but you don't want accept it publicly.
CORWIN, If I was able to do the same amount of DPS you did with a bladed staff except I had the ability to use Feint as well as Evasion. Would you still stand by your statement?

There is only 1 correct and logical answer, but if I can't get you to see that then there's no point in debating. I don't need a response filled with a bunch of imaginary "what if" numbers; It's a yes or no answer.

You do more DPS, therefore your enemy will die faster, resulting in less damage taken. That is not damage mitigation. The only damage you mitigated was that of the enemy missing you from using Evasion. I also have Evasion, but I can also split the damage I'm taking in half which is also damage mitigated. By doing so, I'm going to be reducing my DPS due to adding in another ability to my rotation. I'm using two types of mitigation, you're using one therefore I am capable of mitigating more damage than you. A lot of theorycrafting is not needed to come to that conclusion.

EDIT: For reasons of people jumping into the thread and just reading the last post, both characters are 120 Bushido 120 Parry, one is using a two handed weapon, the other a one-handed weapon.
 
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CorwinXX

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Best sampire debate in a long time. Much better than the various debates in UHall.
As to me it is not funny when your opponent pretend that he not only can't count but also can't read:
DPS doesn't matter in this case. I got 160 damage in 3 min 45 sec, you got 440 damage in 4 min. 43 damage per minute taken against 110 damage per minute taken.

For reasons of people jumping into the thread and just reading the last post:
One character uses Feint and gets 10 hits per minute, another character uses a better way of damage mitigation instead and gets 4 hits per minute... (compare two videos above)

p.s. What's a nice logic: "I don't know about damage mitigation method that you use. If I don't know about something it doesn't exist. So you don't use any damage mitigation method except those that I know. therefore I am capable of mitigating more damage than you. I can't prove this by video because for unknown reason I always get more damage than you. I tried to cheat using passive healing abilities but I was exposed. So I will try to prove that I get less damage using my math."
 

Ender

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There's guaranteed to be some variation with the UEVs used in the test having different skill values, leading to some hitting harder and/or more often, so just use your brain for this. All other things being equal, you are NOT going to take more damage using feint than you would not using it. It's just that simple.
 

CorwinXX

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All other things being equal
I see. If you don't know about something it doesn't exist.

here's guaranteed to be some variation with the UEVs used in the test having different skill values
I found an UEV with ~40 skill points?
(130 + 20)/2.5 = (40 + 20)

Here is formula and online calculator for hit chance:
http://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/combat.php#hitchance
My dci is 29. (i could increase it to 40 and reduce chance to get hit by ~10%).


p.s. As I have already said I killed only one UEV to make this video:
I transfered my archer to TC, dropped archery/healing to get bushido/parrying to 120, entered shame and killed the first UEV I encountered.
 

CorwinXX

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Just to show that previous result wasn't lucky I killed UEV again. I used the same char and the same suit.
This time I didn't used Evasion (to show that it doesn't help much against UEV).
Also this time I killed five UEV and selected best result.

So... I killed UEV without healing (except 4 hpr on slither and crimsy), without Evasion... 10 hits... 220 hp before killing blow... 3 minute 15 seconds:

Now it's 40 hits vs 10 hits and I didn't used Evasion too.
Someone may call this black street magic but I call this 'damage mitigation'. :)


EDITED: It's 3 hits per minute. So you can't explain this by my 20% higher DPS.
 

Uvtha

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Just to show that previous result wasn't lucky I killed UEV again. I used the same char and the same suit.
This time I didn't used Evasion (to show that it doesn't help much against UEV).
Also this time I killed five UEV and selected best result.

So... I killed UEV without healing (except 4 hpr on slither and crimsy), without Evasion... 10 hits... 220 hp before killing blow... 3 minute 15 seconds:

Now it's 40 hits vs 10 hits and I didn't used Evasion too.
Someone may call this black street magic but I call this 'damage mitigation'. :)


EDITED: It's 3 hits per minute. So you can't explain this by my 20% higher DPS.
Why I'm interjecting myself in this thing I don't know, but I think the "damage mitigation" perspective being argued over here is:

1) Corwin does more damage, so the fight is shorter, so over the course of the fight he takes less damage.
2) Sibble does less damage, so the fight is longer, he has 5% less parry being one handed so he will probably get hit a few more times, thus takes more damage over the course of the fight. Though of course if he had been feinting the whole time, the damage he took would have been half what it was.

But really, the damage you take over the course of a battle doesn't matter in the slightest. What DOES matter is how SAFE you are during a battle. This is why I don't understand why UEV's are being used in this example. They aren't dangerous. As Sibble pointed out he didn't even need Feint because he was never in danger.

When you fight something like an UEV you obviously want the highest damage weapon you can get, because you aren't going to get killed by a UEV unless you like fall asleep. When you fight something that can actually kill you, then a Feint weapon will often be the better choice than a max damage weapon.
Now send two templates up against Paroxysmus or a Night Terror or something, one with feint and one without and see which one gets below half life (or whatever marker) more often. That would be a MUCH more valuable comparison of effective tankiness.

In terms of lessening the per hit damage feint is obviously the best ability, as it's the only thing that can do so (I think). The real question in what makes the best tank is reducing damage taken, or getting hit less, or healing fast enough, and how easy each is to effectively accomplish.

Obviously I think in this scenario we are putting a lot of focus on soloing strong monsters, so you do need to sacrifice some survivability for dps, because the best "tank" is probably a combo of feint ,healing, and avoidance.

In terms of simplicity, cheapness, feint seems like the "over all" best choice. I feel like you have a much better idea of how the fight will go blow to blow with feint than you do with other options. With mirror images 90% dodge is good, but that 10% hit could put you in danger and you could get unlucky and get hit multiple times in a row, and you have to keep casting more images. Healing methods also have more variability with with bandages getting disturbed (is that an issue? I haven't used heal in ages) and missing too many hits in a row with leeches or getting low leeches if you use LL reather than VE...
Feint just seems more constant, and of course getting a leaf blade is really zero issue prep/cost wise, and sampire is a good versatile build, really only being useless solo when it comes to anti-leechers.

Bickering aside, I did find it an interesting discussion, as I am in the process of building a fencing feint base warrior. Being on siege it really seems like the best option for survivability, which is the key for solo adventures after all.
 
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CorwinXX

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1) Corwin does more damage, so the fight is shorter, so over the course of the fight he takes less damage.
2) Sibble does less damage, so the fight is longer, he has 5% less parry being one handed so he will probably get hit a few more times, thus takes more damage over the course of the fight. Though of course if he had been feinting the whole time, the damage he took would have been half what it was.
When we compare damage taken per minute it doesn't matter how long is the fight. In my second video I got 3 hits per minute without Evasion and he got 10 hits per minute in his video. So it is not a question who mitigated more damage in this case.

This is why I don't understand why UEV's are being used in this example.
He said that subj template mitigates more damage than any other template (except one SW spell). So the aim was to compare damage mitigating not tanking. I didn't used high dps template, my dps was just 10-20% higher... when there are 2x higher dps templates.

But really, the damage you take over the course of a battle doesn't matter in the slightest. What DOES matter is how SAFE you are during a battle.
I agree with you. I don't know if you read the whole topic or non... When he said that subj template is the strongest tank I suggested to make a list of dangerous monsters and compare who tank better on them. Do you want to make such list with me? What would you say about making a list of all dangerous monsters in the game?

I feel like you have a much better idea of how the fight will go blow to blow with feint than you do with other options.With mirror images 90% dodge is good, but that 10% hit could put you in danger and you could get unlucky and get hit multiple times in a row, and you have to keep casting more images.
With Feint you also can get bad luck. Feint doesn't half damage taken - it just give you a chance to do so.
Against some monsters you don't have enough mana for feint (Cora, Travesty,...)
Some monsters freeze or stun you so you can't activate Feint (Slasher, Mephisto,...)
Against some monsters you miss too much (blackthorn macer, swordsman,...)
Against other strong monsters if you use Feint too often you run out of mana and if you use Feint to rare one unlucky miss may kill you.
Feint doesn't guarantees that you are taking half of damage during all the fight.
But of course Feint has some advantages as well... even swordsmen use Feint sometimes. It depends on situation. I believe we need to make full list of dangerous monsters to get the answer.

In terms of simplicity, cheapness, feint seems like the "over all" best choice.
Yes Feint is simple and cheap. For SP it may be the best option. Although I don't sure that a sampire is a good choice on SP (it is too weak in PvP).


Now send two templates up against Paroxysmus or a Night Terror or something,
As I remember Duncan Drake posted that he rarely dropped under 100 against Parox with a Bushido Paladin. But I may be wrong so it's better to ask him.
 

Uvtha

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Yes Feint is simple and cheap. For SP it may be the best option. Although I don't sure that a sampire is a good choice on SP (it is too weak in PvP).
Yeah, shards dead though, I rarely get attacked. When I do its someone solo who also has mediocre gear, so I can just run away heh. Yet to be killed on my necro paladin, but I can't tank anything that hits hard, so going for feint to see if I can solo some stuff.
 

Ender

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what the hell are you even talking about, a UEV having 40 skill points?
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

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With mirror images 90% dodge is good, but that 10% hit could put you in danger and you could get unlucky and get hit multiple times in a row, and you have to keep casting more images.

Bickering aside, I did find it an interesting discussion, as I am in the process of building a fencing feint base warrior.
Glad you did chime in, I always like your posts. :)

RE Images: That 10% is still better than you're getting with Bushido/Parry/Evasion/DCI and for 1/2 the skill points. Plus there's nothing stopping you having a setup that uses Feint and Images. My current view is based mostly on the new (new to me, having come back) monsters that are anti leech. I think Healing/Ninjitsu is better defensively, and really most fights just come down to your characters longevity (as monsters don't really have any useful tactics for healing themselves).

RE Fencing/Feint: As I said early on, it's what I'd recommend to anyone, all the variants have pros/cons but if you don't want to rebuild for specific encounters there's not really anything one can do that this can't. Which is why I agree with the 'best all round' tag.
 

Ender

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I agree that there is nothing outstanding in solo'ing UEV without regen/healing... but with "the best damage mitigation template" they can't do even this simple task.
He did it just fine but okay. I literally have no idea what you're saying anymore
 
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