Yes, he healed just fine... but he was not able to mitigate well... and this is not fine for "the best damage mitigation template in the game".
I noticed. May be you needn't comment things that you don't understand?
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I have already killed it solo both ways - with and without feint... But really this is not important.
1. I didn't said about some template that "There is no template that can mitigate more damage than this one".
2. You may be surprised but other templates also can use Feint.
3. Is Shimmering Effusion - is the only monster that you can suggest? I have already posted in this topic that Shimmering Effusion seems to be rare example where Feint is handy...
Yes, he said "strongest all around". But he also said "There is no template that can mitigate more damage than this one" - exactly word by word.
As to Parox... Tell me at what moment he needed feint? He does 2x more damage than Sadok's template, leach 2x more life and seems he is never has been dropped under 100.
A player that is able to buy tinker's legs, crimsy, Conjurer's Trinket, etc. needn't help from feint against monsters like parox and rikktor...
As to Parox... Tell me at what moment he needed feint? He does 2x more damage than Sadok's template, leach 2x more life and seems he is never has been dropped under 100.
A player that is able to buy tinker's legs, crimsy, Conjurer's Trinket, etc. needn't help from feint against monsters like parox and rikktor...
It seems you not only misunderstanding what I post but you also don't understand what you post.
When I say about damage mitigation you come with tanking examples. When I give you tanking example you say it's not mitigation.
Please firstly decide what do you want then post.
By the way this topic is about tanking template not only about damage mitigation.
If you're referring to the video that I posted where I do nothing but use AI and trolololol the entire time, feint wasn't used... you're wasting your time.
I didn't use feint because I had no reason to, so the entire experiment proves nothing - it's impossible for anyone to not understand this.
What I'm saying is, anyone who wants to bring up the video I posted and use it as some way to back up whatever reasoning you have, then you are clearly trolling. I posted the video as a joke, such as it is.
I didn't use feint because I had no reason to, so the entire experiment proves nothing - it's impossible for anyone to not understand this.
What I'm saying is, anyone who wants to bring up the video I posted and use it as some way to back up whatever reasoning you have, then you are clearly trolling. I posted the video as a joke, such as it is.
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What I don't understand is how this thread has lasted as long as it has. I've followed it from the beginning, and while everyone has valid points to their side of the argument, this thread was intended to help people and give their idea of a template. If it's not your cup of tea (as it's not mine) so what...? Is it really worth bashing each other for 209 posts???? I'm all about different templates and variation...UO was founded on that principle...but just because it's not the template you run doesn't open the door for bashing. obviously someone likes their template enough to take the time to share it with other people. if someone tries the template and doesn't like it...they know next time to try a different template or come up with their own. No reason to argue amongst ourselves for what truly is...well...nothing.
Close to finishing a rebuild of a Ninja, and just happened to notice this isn't true, you continue to swing even while casting it.
You can see that discussion was not on template but on statements that TS claimed about this template.
Here is an old (year-2013) video on which I use this template to solo Shimmering Effusion.
I used this template a lot. This is why I know its drawbacks.
(By the way it is obvious that templates I use now - melee archer and disco necro swordsman - have drawbacks as well)
I'm not really sure what you wanted to show with that. I didn't watch the whole thing but from what I saw you were running a lot and the video was rather long... I don't have a video of it but I've done Shimmering in less time with a leafblade fencer sampire just using feint and momentum strike. Occasionally AI.
I am not surprised.
I already knew that you don't understand my English... and this your post is just another one confirmation.
I can't believe you're still bumping this thread with your BS.
You should go back to post 1, read the entire thread again and see how silly you look. Someone posted a different template than yours, so what? move on... You don't know anything any of us don't, there isn't some secret formula or mechanic that you're aware of and none of us are.
You should go back to post 1, read the entire thread again and see how silly you look. Someone posted a different template than yours, so what? move on... You don't know anything any of us don't, there isn't some secret formula or mechanic that you're aware of and none of us are.
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Words, just words again... and as usual you are not able to prove your words...
And you even don't know how damage is calculated.
You see - there is no any true sentence in your post.
And I already see how you are going to write a long answer to my post. It will be full of abstract statements where you put your personal opinion like a Greatest Truth. But as usual it will not contain any concrete information. For example,
there will no video where you are killing UEV with your template without any way of healing
there will no list of essential differences between your template and my template (from the last video)
there will no prove that 100% damage increase from suit is included in the 300% damage cap
there will no prove that this template is best damage mitigation template or best tank template
and so on
Can you show me any essential difference? Tiny differences like 20 Tactics doesn't count.
You even didn't know how to kill UEV without any way of healing. You didn't know about Hit Fatigue till I said you. You continued post things like "there is no difference between our chars except feint". You couldn't even imagine that I can use HFat to reduce damage taken and you continued to ignore obvious (proven by video) fact that I take 3x-4x less hits per minute.
And you even don't know how damage is calculated.
You garble 3x cap for Damage Bonus with 100% DI from items cap. Few people (Tuan, Vexxed) pointed to you on your error... but you were not even able to understand what they are told you and didn't corrected your error.
You see - there is no any true sentence in your post.
And I already see how you are going to write a long answer to my post. It will be full of abstract statements where you put your personal opinion like a Greatest Truth. But as usual it will not contain any concrete information. For example,
there will no video where you are killing UEV with your template without any way of healing
there will no list of essential differences between your template and my template (from the last video)
there will no prove that 100% damage increase from suit is included in the 300% damage cap
there will no prove that this template is best damage mitigation template or best tank template
and so on
I can't believe you're still using UEVs as a basis for effectiveness.
And are you implying there isn't a 100 DI cap from items and that contributes to the 300 cap? Has something changed? I thought that was common knowledge for years.
And are you implying there isn't a 100 DI cap from items and that contributes to the 300 cap? Has something changed? I thought that was common knowledge for years.
Ender
1. 'damage mitigation' is not 'effectiveness'
sibble said he will take less damage, he took more damage (per minute), but insisted that he could take less damage...
here is short list what he tried to cheat me:
firstly he added mass HPR and Damage Eater to his suit and pretended that Damage Healed is not Damage Taken
then he said that it is because he didn't use feint (although it is obvious that feint can't reduce his 400 damage taken under my 100 damage taken)
then he said that it is because it did less damage (although I counted 'damage per minute' and not overall damage)
then he decided to completely ignore what we saw on videos and started saying that he must get 2x less damage because he has Feint and it is the only difference between our chars (he even didn't know that it is possible to reduce damage taken using Hit Fatigue)
2. compare wrong: "There is a 300% damage increase cap for dexers in PvM. Your suit, weapon and any buffs you have are included in the 300% damage cap." by sibble
with correct: "There is 3x damage bonus cap for dexers in PvM. Your suit, weapon and some buffs you have are not included in the 300% damage cap".
Yes, it was common knowledge for years (here is even sticked topic dated 2012 with this knowledge) but sibble still hasn't got it.
1. 'damage mitigation' is not 'effectiveness'
sibble said he will take less damage, he took more damage (per minute), but insisted that he could take less damage...
here is short list what he tried to cheat me:
firstly he added mass HPR and Damage Eater to his suit and pretended that Damage Healed is not Damage Taken
then he said that it is because he didn't use feint (although it is obvious that feint can't reduce his 400 damage taken under my 100 damage taken)
then he said that it is because it did less damage (although I counted 'damage per minute' and not overall damage)
then he decided to completely ignore what we saw on videos and started saying that he must get 2x less damage because he has Feint and it is the only difference between our chars (he even didn't know that it is possible to reduce damage taken using Hit Fatigue)
2. compare wrong: "There is a 300% damage increase cap for dexers in PvM. Your suit, weapon and any buffs you have are included in the 300% damage cap." by sibble
with correct: "There is 3x damage bonus cap for dexers in PvM. Your suit, weapon and some buffs you have are not included in the 300% damage cap".
Yes, it was common knowledge for years (here is even sticked topic dated 2012 with this knowledge) but sibble still hasn't got it.
There is more to damage mitigation than a template. It is just a part of it. Example, pretty much regardless of template, if you had hit lower attack on your weapon and someone else didn't, you would mitigate more damage than they would.
A sampire is more than than solo'ing a creaute that isn't even a challenge anymore one at a time I solo champ spawns and do Rikktor in 30 minutes, from start to end of champ.
A sampire is more than than solo'ing a creaute that isn't even a challenge anymore one at a time I solo champ spawns and do Rikktor in 30 minutes, from start to end of champ.
Luckily, this is extremely easy to test. Here is how we can conclusively prove if there is a 300% cap to DAMAGE INCREASE as opposed to DAMAGE MODIFIER.
I have never done this test myself, but I do believe that I know how it will end.
Create a character on TC.
Set STR = 125.
Set Tact = 120.
Set Anat = 120.
This should give an effective damage increase of: 42.5 + 81.25 + 65 = 187.75.
Get a weapon and combination of items to take you to 100% DI from items, as shown in character window. Please note: your weapons must be an axe. Just for good measure, lets also stipulate that the minimum damage of your axe must be 12.
Now you will have 287.75 DAMAGE INCREASE
Set Lumberjacking to 62. You now have 300.15 % DI. This should now hit the cap.
Confirm your current damage in the character window. The damage range should now be exactly [weapon_min_dmg] * 4 to [weapon_max_damage] * 4 (a 100% increase is mathematically multiplying by 2...).
OK. Now we simply need to increase above this theoretical 300% cap to see if we can get that character window to change.
Set Lumberjacking to 100. Now the DI bonus from LJ is 30, instead of 12.4. Giving us a theoretical 317.75% DI.
Verify in the character window. If your damage range changed, then we have conclusively proven that there is not a 300% cap on DAMAGE INCREASE.
Just for fun... Find some + Str items, or drink a Str pot, or both - get your STR up to 125. You now have a theoretical 326.08% DI. Check the character window again. Did your damage change? (this is why we needed at least a min damage of 12 - to make sure that an 8.33% increase would be enough to move the range visibly)
Worth noting is that this is exactly how monster DI works. You get a monster who does 30 base damage... give it 100 tactics, and 1000 STR, and that's how it manages to do 40 damage to you past your 70+ resist. It gets 333% increase from it's STR bonus, meaning it's getting 400% total DI = 150 base damage * .3 = 45 damage to you: nearly exactly what something like a Greater Dragon does.
There is a 100% DI cap from items and equipment, a 300% cap from slayers, EoO, Honor. Skills and stats are not part of either cap.
Overall i see a lot of people in game who don't understand Damage Increase, Damage Modifier and Damage Increase stat from weapon / suit. UOGuide explains everything about it http://www.uoguide.com/Damage_Calculations but maybe we need some tutorial on Stratics also?
Actually... axes with lumberjacking break the damage cap, much like using the bard song masteries do.... just sayin.
Probably it is worth to rename that sticked topic.Yup but could be more visible hehe
"All other things" can't be equal because he uses leafblade and I don't. So let's just agree that he is not able to kill UEV without any way of healing and drop it.
By the way I was just answering to Mikeltin5... and I just pointed that played with this template (and I didn't say anything about the template in that post)... I don't know why sibble started this "debates" again. He is not interested in my opinion, I am not interested in his opinion... so I don't see any reason for debates.
Item DI is not part of 300 cap.
Even if you have 0 DI from items even in this case +200% damage bonus from lesser slayer takes you to the cap and adding EOO/etc doesn't increase your damage. And if you have +100% damage bonus from super slayer then +50% damage bonus from EOO takes you to the cap. Having or not having 100% DI "from items" (really from items, some skills like DF, some abilities like berserk, ...) doesn't affect reaching "3x damage bonus cap" (known as "300% damage bonus cap").
Not to derailed this train wreck further......but a question just popped into my mind....remember the old dual slayers.....I may still have a couple some place. What if one was a lesser slayer ( say dragon) and one was a greater slayer (say reptile) ...in theory we could hit the 300 cap just with a single weapon alone??
Has anyone else noticed sometimes you can have too much damage. For example I believe you have to achieve perfection before you get the luck bonus. But with all the damage modifiers there are times I have named/boss monsters dead before I get 10 hits in. So if I am concerned about luck I often dont chain armour ignores or use EoO....
While I am asking......I have designed suit to maintain 1.25 ss.... I have 45 hci on my suit....but why do I attack faster with LS then I do with AI?
Anyone else notice this?
While I am asking......I have designed suit to maintain 1.25 ss.... I have 45 hci on my suit....but why do I attack faster with LS then I do with AI?
Anyone else notice this?
It's a small, but important, distinction. The property in this case is damage modifier : for proof of this, look at a quiver their property is "damage modifier" which falls under the purview of slayer damage.
Damage Increase is a different property, and behaves differently.
I'm utterly convinced that 90% of the arguments that occur on this topic are because people use the improper terminology.
*Thinks you just made a fact.*
Didn't know about Hit Fatigue till you said? Incorrect.. can you quote a post that states that? You have no idea what I know and what I don't know. 99% of what I do in this game has to do with combat - PVP and PVM. Specifically, melee combat.
I didn't need to do anything extra with my weapon to mitigate damage for this encounter because I have feint. Actually, I didn't need to do anything special for this encounter period. Hit Fatigue is not worth the property space on a weapon unless you are fighting something that does nothing but physical damage. This leaves rooms for properties such as Mana Leech, HLA, HLD, SSI, DI, Hit Area Spells and occasionally Hit Spells. So again we're back to discussing some template that you're using tailored to a specific encounter, and you're whining about my suit that I use for every encounter?
LOL this is pathetic at this point
So the video I posted was fraudulent you're saying... because I stood there and I didn't even need to use feint.
All you're doing is posting lies at this point, you should probably have some information to back up anything that you're saying, oh wait... you haven't done that this entire thread :/ All this from a statement regarding this template - which is obvious it's not a fact; it's an opinion. Agree with it, disagree with it, like it or not, it doesn't matter... but don't just make up stuff to try and help your argument.
How do you not know the difference between a factual statement and an opinionated statement?
- Can you calculate how strong this template is?
- Can you calculate how strong that template is?
- Can you calculate the differences between the two templates?
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Is the question "can YOU", or "can ANYONE"?
If the latter, then I would suggest that this is a demonstrably incorrect statement.
Given that this is a game engine in which everything is based on a simple probability, it would be totally possible to calculate the strength of a given template (and playstyle) in a given scenario - provided the scenario is specific enough. This is a problem that is several orders of magnitude simpler than the weather, or say poker.
As was predicted...
Easily:
1. My second type of mitigation was Hit Fatigue. You posted a lot things like above and even were not be able to understand that I use Hit Fatigue.
2. You spend hours to type those "I could" post and didn't find 10 minutes to make a video where you do it. It is because you are just not able to do it. You just not able to mitigate more damage than I did.
Do you pretend that you don't understand difference between damage mitigation and damage healing? Everyone who watched your video could see that you took much more damage. And that you used a lot of healing.
And do you pretend that you can't read?
It is why your video is fraudulent.
Yes, I do.
So I can compare two videos and calculate who took more damage. And I even did it for you. So when you say that your char mitigates most of all damage you are wrong.
As you must remember in that case we discussed about damage mitigation (not about tanking, etc).
I just gave you an easy and fast example of template that can mitigate more damage.
Here is your another wrong statement:
We could make a list of strong monsters. Then calculate how many of them you is able to tank with this template. And compare with number of them that I can tank with some other template.
It is easy - just compare two numbers. I suggested you to do so:
But you know in advance who would win, because your template is not "all-around tank" and is not "strongest tank".
Problem is that each encounter is different, so to try and calculate the differences you'd need to get statistics on every encounter, for each template. However complicated that can get, it will get more complicated when you try to average all the encounters so that you can determine the "overall" value. After all that, you'll still end up with just an average which is why I said it's impossible to calculate. Probably should have used different wording than calculate, because an average can be calculated technically. What I meant was you can't get two hard values to compare for clear distinction, it's all averaging.
@CorwinXX I can see we've reached the end to the argument. You're doing nothing but posting false information and quoting it over and over, which bumps this thread that I happen to check for valid questions/comments/suggestions frequently. More than a couple of people already posted in response to your on-going rant about how you think feint is useless. So, gona just put you on ignore now so I can get real alerts for this thread. *waves with both hands*
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As usual you are lying. There are no false information in my quotes when I quote myself. There are 3 such quotes in my post. The first is about what your post doesn't contain and it is truth. The second is about your hp on your video and it is truth. The third is just a suggestion for you to count monsters you is able to tank so it doesn't contains any statements and can't be true or false.
Well, there are a lot of false information when I quote your posts. Does it count?
As usual you are lying. I never said that feint is useless. I just said that it has drawbacks.
Also there is no "rant" in my post. I can confirm my words (by video or other way depending on statement).
I hope at least here you are not lying so I will not need to comment your lie about my posts again.
If he could kill UEV without healing he would have done it and posted the video.
If he could kill UEV without healing he wouldn't need to rebuild his suit adding so-rarely-used (Energy?) Damage Eater.
It's that simple, stop this... or show me video
You math is wrong. I could explain you but you will not trust me any way. So just take a leafblade with Hit Fatigue and try to keep Feint on during all fight...
You don't trust me but I hope you will trust to what you see yourself.
That whole discussion about uev is ********. Corwin used an elf char with refined armor for 80 energy resist plus sitting on swampy. UEV do 100% energy damage, if you do the calculation, damage reduction is near to 100% feint in that special case ( uev hit for 100% energy). I know that because if you use an gargoyle char with 120 bushido/parry, all 70 and no swampy, you get hit for almost double of what he did get hit for, and probably get hit twice as much since the whole dci/parry/hla thing is bugged to no end atm. No practical relevance here ecept for shimmering effusion fights.
Killing uev without healing has absolutly zero relevance. Nada. Nothing. Nough said. Pointless discussion.
Damage reduction depends largely on what you fight and your temp against that.
Killing uev without healing has absolutly zero relevance. Nada. Nothing. Nough said. Pointless discussion.
Damage reduction depends largely on what you fight and your temp against that.
He did the same and got the same damage per hit as my char. (As to me it is a standard suit 75-75-70-70-80 that I posted before and recommend that resists distribution to all.)
The difference in amount of hits taken per minute. I took 10 hits in 3 minutes, he took 40 hits in 4 minutes.
zero relevance to what?
sibble stated that his char could take 2x less damage against UEV (Ender is still stating this). I believe that killing UEV without healing has 100% relevance to those statements. (And I already wrote that it has very little relevance to tanking).
I chose UEV for two reasons:
1. it's underlines feint drawbacks (Hit Fatigue almost useless on leafblade... and Hit Fatigue mitigates more damage than feint against this monster)
2. it's very easy to test (it takes only 10 minutes including time to get in shame level 5)
But I would not worry if he had chosen any other monster including Shimmering Effusion (although I don't think he is able to tank it).
Ok guys you all are at the top of your game. No need to attack each other. The points and counter points are great, but I sense we're moving into argument mode here. Let's try to keep this technical as the discussion has been good.
It started off as a good thread then quickly descended into drivel and arguing over nothing.
agreed...but I tell ya...I learn more from these arguments...(things I have never tried or considered) then I do from anything in game
Let's turn this back to being constructive:
What is damage mitigation?
To me, damage mitigation is simply a reduction in damage taken. Be it avoiding being hit, increased resist to take less damage, damage eaters, stuff along those lines. There is SOME merit to the idea that the quicker something dies, the less damage you take as well- but, I really don't consider that damage mitigation.
Things that mitigate damage:
DCI, Damage Eaters*, Hit Lower Attack, Armor Refinements (in either DCI or Increased Resist), Parry, Attunement (Spellweaving Spell), Discordance (Bardic Skill), Feint, Defense Mastery (Weapon Skill- allows you to break 70 resist cap), Tribulation (Bardic Mastery), Despair (Bardic Mastery), Perseverance (Bardic Mastery), Evasion (Bushido Spell), Mirror Image (Ninjitsu Spell), Hit Fatigue, Hit Curse, Curse (Magery Spell), Reactive Paralyze, Disarm (PvP mainly, it is usually not advisable to Disarm in PvM as creatures have been known to do more damage without a weapon equiped- Medusa--- I've never personally tested this and just going off what I've been told), Paralyzing Blow, Block (Special Move), Nerve Strike, Riding Swipe (vs Mounted Opponent), Bladeweave (Special Move- random), Force Arrow (Special Move), Force of Nature (Special Move), Infused Throw (Special Move). (that's most of them, I am sure I missed a few)
*Damage Eaters- are not really damage mitigation, you still take the damage, but are then healed. So, overall you do take less damage, since you are healed from the attack.
I had a discussion with someone who claimed that if you aren't being hit, that you are not mitigating the damage. My response was: You get attacked, you get hit, you take damage. I get attacked, opponent missed- who took less damage.
Combination of these effects increase how much damage you mitigate. Some are based on template, some are based off gear, others are based off what someone else is doing (Bardic Masteries).
Example- Mirror Images + Feint / Evasion + Hit Lower Attack + High Parry Skill + Perseverance + Armor Refinements to increase resist would mitigate a lot of damage.
What is damage mitigation?
To me, damage mitigation is simply a reduction in damage taken. Be it avoiding being hit, increased resist to take less damage, damage eaters, stuff along those lines. There is SOME merit to the idea that the quicker something dies, the less damage you take as well- but, I really don't consider that damage mitigation.
Things that mitigate damage:
DCI, Damage Eaters*, Hit Lower Attack, Armor Refinements (in either DCI or Increased Resist), Parry, Attunement (Spellweaving Spell), Discordance (Bardic Skill), Feint, Defense Mastery (Weapon Skill- allows you to break 70 resist cap), Tribulation (Bardic Mastery), Despair (Bardic Mastery), Perseverance (Bardic Mastery), Evasion (Bushido Spell), Mirror Image (Ninjitsu Spell), Hit Fatigue, Hit Curse, Curse (Magery Spell), Reactive Paralyze, Disarm (PvP mainly, it is usually not advisable to Disarm in PvM as creatures have been known to do more damage without a weapon equiped- Medusa--- I've never personally tested this and just going off what I've been told), Paralyzing Blow, Block (Special Move), Nerve Strike, Riding Swipe (vs Mounted Opponent), Bladeweave (Special Move- random), Force Arrow (Special Move), Force of Nature (Special Move), Infused Throw (Special Move). (that's most of them, I am sure I missed a few)
*Damage Eaters- are not really damage mitigation, you still take the damage, but are then healed. So, overall you do take less damage, since you are healed from the attack.
I had a discussion with someone who claimed that if you aren't being hit, that you are not mitigating the damage. My response was: You get attacked, you get hit, you take damage. I get attacked, opponent missed- who took less damage.
Combination of these effects increase how much damage you mitigate. Some are based on template, some are based off gear, others are based off what someone else is doing (Bardic Masteries).
Example- Mirror Images + Feint / Evasion + Hit Lower Attack + High Parry Skill + Perseverance + Armor Refinements to increase resist would mitigate a lot of damage.
Yes!
Yes!
This is why I counted damage taken per minute.
Great list.
I don't count Damage Eater as damage mitigation because you take damage. And Damage Eaters do not always heal back part of this damage. For example, they don't "reduce" (by healing back) damage from a killing hit. For example, yesterday I got 141 damage from one hit. I was so astonished that forgot to make a screenshot. (Now I think it was an AI right after Omen).
As to me Damage Eaters are like Gift of Renewal, Resilience, HPR on items and so on.
Yes.