Religion Revisited?

[imported_snoopy]

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You absolutely without a doubt cannot have it both ways

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Your assertion...not mine. Twist it all you like.

As to your definition of evil...your god is supposed to be omnipresent so the absence of such a being is impossible.

 

[Roscoe]

Is he present in your life?

 

[imported_snoopy]

If there exists an omnipresent being, then whether I acknowledge it or not, it is present in my life by definition. Therefore, if god exists and is omnipresent, and evil is the absence of god, then evil can not exist. The converse is also true.

 

[Mystery Meat]

Better watch out, I think he's trying to convert you.

 

[Guest]

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If there exists an omnipresent being, then whether I acknowledge it or not, it is present in my life by definition. Therefore, if god exists and is omnipresent, and evil is the absence of god, then evil can not exist. The converse is also true.

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Not true. The act of Evil is the lack of the Holy Spirit in the person. We have the choice to bring the Lord to our hearts or not. Some choice to, others already have it and deny him, and others delibertly defy him.

 

[imported_snoopy]

Perhaps if he resorted to using evidence and logic he might actually do it /php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[imported_snoopy]

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We have the choice to bring the Lord to our hearts or not.

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Strictly on the issue of omnipresence, if there are places where your god is not, then it is not omnipresent. Omnipresence is being all places at the same time...your god can not not be somewhere and still be omnipresent.

 

[Mystery Meat]

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Perhaps if he resorted to using evidence and logic ...

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Ha, more like half-baked analogies.

 

[Guest]

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...your god can not not be somewhere and still be omnipresent.

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No he is there and is everywhere, but you need to reconize him, and discover him. But you need faith to understand so I could never convince you, I could help you but never actually show you. But this is the same for you to convince me of the lack of God, which is allot harder I would think.

 

[Guest]

What are you officially Snoops little lacky Toad now?/php-bin/shared/images/icons/jabba.gif

 

[imported_snoopy]

You are dancing back and forth as if someone is shooting at your feet...he is there...he is not there...which is it? If god is everywhere then it matters not whether I accept it into my life/heart/whatever or not because it is there.

 

[imported_snoopy]

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What are you officially Snoops little lacky Toad now?

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Ouch...now that wasn't very christian.

 

[Guest]

So lets say I do recognise God...how do I go about do that?, go with the people that says that YOU will burn in hell and are wrong?, go with what you say?, what mormons say? or what?

Even if I do find the "right" one, what exactly does it do?, does it stop pain and suffering?, does it show a lightbulb that I've got the right thing? or will God stop me from dying horribly.

Or is he just one big sadist?

 

[Mystery Meat]

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What are you officially Snoops little lacky Toad now?

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Then whose beeyotch might that make you? /php-bin/shared/images/icons/queen.gif

 

[Guest]

Gods of course/php-bin/shared/images/icons/biggrin.gif and proud of it.

 

[Mystery Meat]

Haha, ... we all get screwed in the end. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/biggrin.gif

 

[Guest]

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So lets say I do recognise God...how do I go about do that?, go with the people that says that YOU will burn in hell and are wrong?, go with what you say?, what mormons say? or what?

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You can follow any church, they all have valid and some truth to them. But you have to remember in the end it is you and Him and no other. It is perfectly fine to find God on your own, you just need to Find and Follow the Commandments and your Compass, you can do this by reading the Bible and actually read what it says to you not what it means to someone else. Of course this can be very dangreous as well, but thus is life in itself.

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Even if I do find the "right" one, what exactly does it do?, does it stop pain and suffering?, does it show a lightbulb that I've got the right thing? or will God stop me from dying horribly.

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The Lightbulb is the Holy Spirit. The other stuff are the same but just changes the meaning. Suffering is relative and can be differant to people in differant situations. I am sure Paul was suffering horribly when he was crucifed upside down, but I am sure he felt and was filled with joy because he was close to see Him soon.
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Or is he just one big sadist?

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Do not know if so, but my Faith tells me no/php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Guest]

Here I always thought you wanted a Pet Toad.

 

[Shai'tan]

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Perhaps if he resorted to using evidence and logic he might actually do it

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hehehe, I could not agree more...

What I was trying to convay earlier jermosh, is that is does not matter what you perceive to be evil.
Rather, the fact that you feel it exists, and the fact that your god creates everything with the knowledge to forsee all his creations actions.
This makes god a creator of evil, and therefore himself evil.
As snoop is saying, how can your god not be present if he is omnipresent.
I may not be a complete genius. but 1+1 doesn't equal 23,904.
And btw, the term satan comes from the word Shai'tan.
Shai'tan was a supposed angel of god who was created to accuse people.
People often misunderstood him to be the devil for his job given to him by "god."
Anyways, time for a few beers. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Guest]

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What I was trying to convay earlier jermosh, is that is does not matter what you perceive to be evil.
Rather, the fact that you feel it exists, and the fact that your god creates everything with the knowledge to forsee all his creations actions.
This makes god a creator of evil, and therefore himself evil.

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*shakes head* so useing your anology we make poop, so we are then all poopheads? Well some of us are I quess/php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

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As snoop is saying, how can your god not be present if he is omnipresent.

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I never said he is not there, he is always there. But it is the lack of the Holy Spirit in you that is the definition of becoming of Evil. But it is hard for hardcore Christians to truely fathom the Trinity let alone explain it.

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And btw, the term satan comes from the word Shai'tan.
Shai'tan was a supposed angel of god who was created to accuse people.
People often misunderstood him to be the devil for his job given to him by "god."

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Thanks for the tidbit/php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif
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Anyways, time for a few beers

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Have a good one on me/php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif, just tell the Bartender it is on Jermosh/php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[imported_snoopy]

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he is always there. But it is the lack of the Holy Spirit in you that is the definition of becoming of Evil

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round and round we go /php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif If it is not in you then it is not there, but since it is omnipresent it has to be there. If you say that the deity is not omnipresent then this is not an issue. ya poophead!

Do you maintain that something can create evil but not in itself be evil?

 

[imported_JagdWulfe]

You guys have to understand that christianity has no real world arguments. I have been arguing with a roommate who thinks it is his mission to convert me and a Pagan in the room. I asked him for his proof of god since he denies science is correct in anything &lt;including DNA&gt;. He always refers to the bible and when I remind him that the bible was written by man he says but it is of god. I produced a copy of the Necronomicon and said then this book is also correct then. He said no because it was not of god and when I asked him how did he know what god was correct he just kept going back to the bible. The brainwashed are not easy to deal with.

 

[Guest]

Considering that 'God' is omnicient and all powerful, why would he build a world where carbon-based life forms need to eat eachother in order to survive? I dunno, you'd think he could have created a heaven here on Earth instead of this ghastly hell of unremitting chaotic torture and suffering!!

PLUS, he created Oprah.

Ya know, I wouldn't have mentioned that I had hemmorhoids if I new this damn thread would be on the first page for so long.

 

[imported_JagdWulfe]

Jango the best argument is that.

God is all knowing and knows the future?
If so why does he put us on earth in the first place rather than send us to heaven or hell?
I mean think about it I am not gonna acknowledge his existance so I am going to hell.
Also why can god be vain but not humans?
Also why is my son going to hell for not being baptised? I thought god was all loving and stuff.

 

[Guest]

Because God is what we'd be if we were god. Meaning that we've projected ourselves onto him, and I think it's obviously transparent!

Believe in me, or burn in hell.

What kind of is that? And why would anyone worship that? I'd rather despise it.

Personally, I dislike the Christian God, and think he's an who I'd no more bow to then I would anyone that would give me a 'gift' with such hefty strings attached.

I didn't ask for the 'gift', and don't believe it could be construed as such without the belief in God. What kind of torturous existance is it to be without faith and without any answers? No purpose, no nothing.

Since God was so reluctant in providing proof and only humans talk about 'faith', I'll continue to live my life without feeling it was only created to aknowledge and praise my creator. That's what Mom's for. That bich lol

And what is 'faith'? It's a catch-all! The seed that is sewn on dirt that is now infertile thanks to the progression of our species and our leaps in understanding. Faith is believing in what's not real, and why do we have to have it? Because we need it.
Faith is avoiding all common-sense, logical reasoning and irrefutable scientific data, so we can hold onto a belief that should have died long ago. But no, we've got this whole idea of 'faith'. Them guys that wrote the bible were smart ones.

I'd argue that if you had faith in anything, albeit a pet rock or God, you're just indulging yourself in romanticism, which is all too human of a trait.

 

[Guest]

I also think of all the indians that have passed on, but are now burning in hell because of their worship of Mother Nature. Or those that were never given a choice as to what faith they'd believe in other then what their parents forced on them, and who would now be burning in hell.

The billions of people that are now burning in hell because the missionaries couldn't reach them in time to scare them into 'believing' before they died.

All the good people that were genuinely caring and stuff, and how they would burn in hell for eternity for their non-belief.

Like someone said earlier, it's all or it's nothing. If you can dismiss part of it, then all of it is suspect. I believe the bible is about bogus. We're all decendents of Adam and Eve? Noah's Ark? I've mentioned that one before, but hell, it's SUCH a ridiculous story!

 

[Mystery Meat]

"...and who would now be burning in hell."

"...billions of people that are now burning in hell "

"...how they would burn in hell "


Is it just me that sees this tendency towards pyromania in Christianity *wishes he could remeber that anthropological term referring to the burning of people...*. I guess they got tired of burning heretics in sacrifice, reinvented it and fused it to the notion of the afterlife to keep it alllll so antiseptic....

*spits*

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>God is all knowing and knows the future?
If so why does he put us on earth in the first place rather than send us to heaven or hell? </font color=blue>

Because in time-space continuum in which we exist the conclusion could not have existed unless the events actually took place. Otherwise the decision would be up to God and not up to you to accept or reject him.

<font color=blue>I mean think about it I am not gonna acknowledge his existance so I am going to hell. </font color=blue>

You go to hell for the exact opposite.

<font color=blue>Also why can god be vain but not humans? </font color=blue>

lol - i love the assertions people make in these posts...

<font color=blue>Also why is my son going to hell for not being baptised? I thought god was all loving and stuff. </font color=blue>

Baptism has nothing to do with it. When peopl tell you that tell them I say they're wrong. That will fix them. ;-)

 

[Guest]

Well, could you think of a worse form of torture?? BURNING??

Probably not, and I'd refer to this as the 'fear of god'. I sure as hell don't want to burn for eternity....

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>There are more ways than that. We can simply be shown the plan, that doesn't force us anywhere and still gives us the freedom of coice...right now its just random who gets it right, if anyone does´. </font color=blue>

The Truth is absolute. What is random is our attempts at grasping at or grappling with the truth. There is no person or faith that has it completely right - how can the finite grasp and fully understand the infinite? But there are those who are closer to the thruth than others. And I agree - it's up to you to choose.

 

[Lonegamer]

Didn't finish reading the thread, it started turning into the typical religion "my god is right" thing by page two, read one post on page six and it seems the thread hasn't gone back to being interesting. I'm going to comment on the original post.



Sounds absolutely horrible what happened to your cousin, should tell his family modern medecine IS a miricle and some feel-good stuff about how humans are weak and couldn't come up with it on their own, god must have helped. Try and save other people from that kind of senseless and painful decay.

As for religion itself, I find them to be really silly. They are a collection of morals and beliefs from an ancient time, or in the case of Christianity in the Dark Ages, a way to control the population. I really don't care if there is a god or not. If there is, my guess would be it would want us all to live life to our fullest potential, so why should I waste time worrying if I'm pleasing it? Wouldn't god rather people spend time bettering themselves or humanity than spending hours in church? Seems silly to me. And if there isn't a god, then it's all just wasted time anyways. I too have spent a lot of time thinking about it, my conclusion is there is a spirit. I have seen a ghost and experienced paranormal activity, that's proof for me. Any other details I really don't care about, I know I will exist after I die so why should I worry? The idea of heaven and hell sound silly, like Santa only bringing gifts for good children. I saw a show about Santa throughout the ages, there was one version that would take bad children away in his bag. I guess some people need something in their life to encourage them to be good, a relative of mine's life was empty before she became a jehova witness, she needed the strict guidance. Whatever helps people I guess, I just don't want it forced upon me.

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>Perhaps if he resorted to using evidence and logic he might actually do it </font color=blue>

lol - ok, if human behavior and ideals (albeit abstract in nature) are not evidence of something (whether scientific or religious in nature) then I don't know what is.

I'm simply trying to present to you that the very notion that there is an ideal behavior or the concept of an ideal behavior presents some very interesting logical possibilities. It is not illogical to conclude, based on the observation of human nature (animal nature in general for that matter) that God exists.

 

[Mystery Meat]

If there is a Gawd, he'd delete this thread coz it is making my eyes bleed.

 

[Guest]

Thats called Pennance, you have been blessed/php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Lonegamer]

There's a simple secret I call "stop reading when some posters arguing/trolling about how wonderful Christianity is" /php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[Mystery Meat]

If misery is pennance and a blessing then I'm a saint. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>What I was trying to convay earlier jermosh, is that is does not matter what you perceive to be evil.
Rather, the fact that you feel it exists, and the fact that your god creates everything with the knowledge to forsee all his creations actions. </font color=blue>

I think it's a mistake to say that evil exists. There is behavior that is characterized as being evil but I think it's a mstake to say that evil 'exists' in the literal sense of the word. Even love is not necessarily a force that exists soley as itself. Hate - the same thing. Yet all of these words exist to help us get a handle on what's happening around us.

When one gives a person a rose it is that rose the incarnation of love? And does that mean when the rose whithers and dies that it took with it some little bit of love? Or is it merely an expression of the concept that we call love? Is love a hug, a kiss a screw? Love is lots of things to lots of people - and what may be a symbol of love to me may not necessarily be an adequate expression of love to you does that then mean my expression of love is invalide becaue love exists in some definable form?

Evil is very much the same thing - it is not something that exists in and of itself. It is a word used to describe the expression of something. Evil is not a bottle of alcohol nor is evil a portrait of a nekkid woman. Evil is not rock and roll music or the Catcher in the Rye... not even Lady Chaterly's Lover. Evil is an expression of something much in the way love is the expression of something that cannot be quantified, measured or captured. To say it exists is a misnomer and implies a tangibility that one would not give love, hate or even joy. Yes those can take on tangible expresions but none of those expressions are the pure embodiment of the deeper emotion, sentiment or idea.

<font color=blue>This makes god a creator of evil, and therefore himself evil. </font color=blue>

Did God create the refrigerator and if so does that therefore make him a refrigerator too?

<font color=blue>As snoop is saying, how can your god not be present if he is omnipresent. </font color=blue>

The same way my wife and I can be in the same room and she can say 'where did you go just now - I was talking to you!'

<font color=blue>I may not be a complete genius. but 1+1 doesn't equal 23,904. </font color=blue>

Neither does it always equal 2.

<font color=blue>And btw, the term satan comes from the word Shai'tan.
Shai'tan was a supposed angel of god who was created to accuse people.
People often misunderstood him to be the devil for his job given to him by "god."
Anyways, time for a few beers. </font color=blue>

If you're pulling that from scripture then that's a complete perversion of what the scripture truly says. If it's from somewhere else then... that's nice.

 

[Lonegamer]

*opens mouth to reply, BAM!!! goes her hand to her face because her hand is smart and knows better than to get into this discussion*

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>And what is 'faith'? It's a catch-all! The seed that is sewn on dirt that is now infertile thanks to the progression of our species and our leaps in understanding. Faith is believing in what's not real, and why do we have to have it? Because we need it.
Faith is avoiding all common-sense, logical reasoning and irrefutable scientific data, so we can hold onto a belief that should have died long ago. But no, we've got this whole idea of 'faith'. Them guys that wrote the bible were smart ones. </font color=blue>

Faith is very much about knowing as opposed to blindly accepting. It bugs me to no end when I see people say 'you just have to have faith' because they are typically saying 'just blindly accept'.

Faith is the essence of things hoped for and substance of things not seen. Faith is the seeing eye, the 6th sense of spirituality that enables us to acknowledge God in a present reality rather than a distance possibility.

 

[Roscoe]

dang I'm confused - so you are a girl?

 

[Guest]

I am sorry I am speaking of the the Trinity. It is impossible to really understand let alone explain. Basically the Trinity is 1 devine being with 3 distinct personas,
1st Is the Lord who is omnispresent, all knowing and the Alpha Omega of time. He is the father figure, and the big daddy of Salvation, Creator, etc, etc.

2nd Is Jesus Christ, who is the Son of Man, he is also the Human persona, the one who has forgivin us of our sins and also the one who Christians prey to for Devine intervention, gave his life for us, etc, etc.

3rd is the Holy Spirit. This is my Moral Compass, the spirit that allows us to determine right and wrong. I also feel that my feelings of the Holy Spirit is differant then others, as is theres to mine, this is the Personal part of God. This is the hardest one to explain to others who have not had the spirit in them. Its one of those you have to experiance it to understand things.

But they are all the same Being. So yes it is confusing if not impossible to really explain, Monks with 50years of Theoligy study still cannot fully explain it. Also as you can tell this is a core reason why Christians are confused so much because our God is multi-persona.

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue> *opens mouth to reply, BAM!!! goes her hand to her face because her hand is smart and knows better than to get into this discussion* </font color=blue>

Actually - this is the second time you've responded to me like this Lone. So I have a question - am I pissing you off? lol

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>There's a simple secret I call "stop reading when some posters arguing/trolling about how wonderful Christianity is" </font color=blue>

Nevermind... i found my answer. lol

 

[Guest]

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I am sure Paul was suffering horribly when he was crucifed upside down, but I am sure he felt and was filled with joy because he was close to see Him soon.


<hr></blockquote>

And i'm sure that according to Catholic lore Paul was beheaded (he was a Roman citizen blah blah) it was Peter who was crucified upside down.

Read books you must, young padowan.

 

[Guest]

Magdalene is absolutely correct. The knowledge of early church history by some of the self-proclaimed Christians on this forum is absolutely appalling at times.

<font color=blue>&gt;&gt;If there is a Gawd, he'd delete this thread coz it is making my eyes bleed.</font color=blue>

No, I'm not going to delete it. You are undergoing the the eye-bleed test which will determine whether you will be going to heaven or hell. I, of course, already know your final destination. In fact, I knew it before the foundations of the earth, and there is no way you can possibly surprise me by choosing anything other than what I already know.

Since the question of God's omnipresence was discussed earlier, perhaps one of you Bible thumpers can answer this:

If God is present everywhere, where was he when Christ cried out "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34)

Of course, there are two meanings to the word "forsake." One is to quite or leave entirely, withdraw, or abandon, which means God was NOT present, or it means to renounce without intent to recover or resume, which means Jesus, if he wasn't lying to us, was renounced by God and is therefore a false deity. Which of course makes historical sense since he only became divine when the Bishops at the Council of Nicea voted for it almost 300 year after the fact.

 

[imported_snoopy]

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lol - ok, if human behavior and ideals (albeit abstract in nature) are not evidence of something (whether scientific or religious in nature) then I don't know what is.

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They certainly could be evidence of something...maybe evolution...maybe unicorns and elves...but to say they are evidence supporting the evidence of a deity is infounded.

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It is not illogical to conclude, based on the observation of human nature (animal nature in general for that matter) that God exists.

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Umm...yes it is. The conclusion is only as sound as the premises and the premise that human nature proves god exists is meaningless. I can look at the turned over garbage can in my yard and conclude that hobbits must have come by and turned it over but that is hardly logical.

 

[imported_snoopy]

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Faith is the essence of things hoped for

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And this is the crux of it.

 

[imported_snoopy]

I would agree that the belief suggests that JC and the holy sheet are one in the same, but gawd being the father to itself doesn't quite work.

 

[Guest]

<font color=blue>
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Faith is the essence of things hoped for



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And this is the crux of it.
</font color=blue>

You realize that you just agreed with the Book of Hebrews in the New Testament, Chapter 11, verse 1. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>but to say they are evidence supporting the evidence of a deity is infounded. </font color=blue>

Please, enlighten me snoopy - how do you explain our sentience, our ability to know, our personal nature?

*waits for the behaviorist model in some form or another*

<font color=blue>The conclusion is only as sound as the premises and the premise that human nature proves god exists is meaningless.</font color=blue>

So you say. I guess the conversation's over then. Thanks for playing.

<font color=blue>I can look at the turned over garbage can in my yard and conclude that hobbits must have come by and turned it over but that is hardly logical.</font color=blue>

You are actually not very far from the truth with such a thought. While Hobbits are an invention of Tolkien there is within human nature (and still is) the desire to find the 'otherly' to explain many things. While science has clearly come a long way to mature our thoughts as to why people get sick, or why certain things happen (like eclipses) humanity always has and always will respond to an innate desire to believe there's something more than what we see with our physical sense. Coming to the conclusion that a hobbit tipped over your garbage can is merely further demonstration of that innate need to explain the purpose behind something.