Religion Revisited?

[imported_JagdWulfe]

"That's no point, morality is the underpinning of freedom. Freedom without morality is corruption and, well, immorality. "

And whose morality do we use? Remember in 18th century Japan it was morally acceptable to have sex with boys. In china at one point cannibalism was acceptable. In Africa it is acceptable to mutilate the genetalia of young women. So do we use Western morality or someone elses?

 

[chippac]

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Bad enough there is a movement to make America a Christian state &lt;Hopefully that day never comes&gt;.

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Y'all are welcome to come to the Pagan Canadian Federation. Claim religious persecution and you will get in easily. PS... bring a a few dozen nukes if it ever comes to that /php-bin/shared/images/icons/evild.gif

 

[Guest]

So what true Christian Moral is wrong to you, or is hindering your rights?? Also I do not think the government sets the Morals it is the community that we live in.

 

[Guest]

I was married under civil law for 10 years and than got divorced - not possible under christian morals.
Worse, my ex-'s aunt was abandoned by her lawful husband (church wedding and all), and abandoned like "honey i go buy cigarettes brb" never to be seen again. And it was ok till the day she decided to start over, no right to divorce, no right to remarry. She was denied absolution and communion for years because of continued sin of fornication she was not sorry for or had no intention of giving up on.
No need to mention abortion or euthanasia, just simple things that can happen to anyone...

 

[Guest]

<font color=red>"I was married under civil law for 10 years and than got divorced - not possible under Christian morals."</font color=red>
But how is this affecting your rights? Unless where you live there is a law against it. Also it is possible to get a divorce in some Christian denominations not all though.

<font color=red>"Worse, my ex-'s aunt was abandoned by her lawful husband (church wedding and all), and abandoned like "honey i go buy cigarettes brb" never to be seen again. And it was ok till the day she decided to start over, no right to divorce, no right to remarry. She was denied absolution and communion for years because of continued sin of fornication she was not sorry for or had no intention of giving up on."</font color=red>
Was she not applicable for Annulment? I cannot speak for all the Diocese but the act of Annulment is open to all as per Canon law, although it is carried out differently in other Countries and Dioceses, in my area and most of the US the annulment is completely and secretly done by another diocese, so the Annulment group has not idea who or what stander they have, also not even a Bishop can interfere with a decision unless he is on the team, but he can re-submit. This "man" utter abandonment is a plain disregard for the Sacrament of Marriage, his vows would not be applicable and she would have a good chance of a success. It may be different in your part of the world, maybe not.

But as again. This is not affecting her Rights. Recieving Communion and being in good standing is not a Right it is a Choice. Granted 500 years or even 100 years ago it was a demand that you were Christian, but we do not live in the Past.

<font color=red>"No need to mention abortion or euthanasia, just simple things that can happen to anyone..." </font color=red>
Abortion is Legal as far as I know in the US. So it is not interfering with anyone’s rights there. Also Abortion is not the sole fight of just Christians there are other Beliefs or Non-Beliefs who feel that Abortion is wrong as well.
Euthanasia is not solely Christian as well. Granted it is illegal in the US but this is because it is a tricky thing to decide how to make it legal. Kind of like removing a feeding tube from someone who cannot feed themselves, it is hard to define.

 

[Guest]

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I was married under civil law for 10 years and than got divorced - not possible under christian morals.


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Ummm, you may want to restate that...it's Catholic morals that do not allow divorce...I am not aware of any other Christian religion that is as strongly against it...la

 

[Guest]

No, but most people silently condoning these things would also not vote against such a law, which makes it a distinct possibility that such could be passed.

 

[Shai'tan]

&gt; ....believe in satan...You must be confusing Christians with satanists, right?

Sorry if I may have misposted a important form of my statement.
I meant, that if a christian "believes" in the existence of satan (not worships him), then yadda yadda...
I do not fully believe in the idea of free will. I'll humor christianity for a minute to show what I feel.

Eg. God exists. He creates everything, including humans w/ free will. However, he knows everything that has happened and all that will happen. so he creates an environment, and a person, and he knows what they are going to do. In fact, he creates each person knowing why he makes them, what their "purpose" is. So, how can it possibly be free will if we are bound to do EXACTLY what we do?

Thats why I also feel that if "god" created the devil, than he wanted "evil" to be in the world.
All this would of course take a belief in the christian religion, which I lack. Just my opinion tho.

In reply to my remark on the story of Noah in the bible.
No, I have no problem if someone wants to borrow/steal/create a story to make a good logical opint at all. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif
However, the story of Noah, IMO, seem's to be used more to prove the power and very existance of god. God's mercy as well.
But this does not prove a good logical point. If it was a story to show people why stealing/killing/****/whatever is wrong. That would be fine. As long as it showed the act being "wrong" based on personal/logical/humanitarian reasons, not for fear of god.
It is a fact that we, in a sense, biologically "hate" what we fear.
So why do some christians tell me they fear god?
Or why do they teach their children to fear what "god" will do to them if they do not perfectly comply to the rules.
Last time my x-gf made me go to church with her, the "youth pastor" was telling the people to give money to send missionarries to children who had never known god.
Children in other countries, in tribes far from civilization and such.
He stated that these children were going to go to hell because (and it was god's fault), they had never learn of the existence of god.
First off, I will never worship a god who makes people just to send them to hell for what appears to be his ammusement.
And I thought christians beleived that ONLY and I mean ONLY GOD can judge people.
Where the heck does this youth pastor get off deciding these children are going to hell?

&gt;Snoopy (I think)-&gt; there are countries that would be far higher on the list.

&gt;Wist-&gt;Such as which ones? And are they being run by blood-thirsty, insane, human-torturing/murdering tyrants? And are they in a position where they CAN be brought down without starting WWIII?

Many more countries, dont get me wrong, Saddam is definitely high on my shiz list. but There is one country in particular that REALLY hates us and we believe them to be gaining nuclear power.

&gt;Wist&gt;Anyhow, so much for a vague defense.

Heh, better than blabbering on and trying to make 10,000 points at once, all while attempting to be exact; and just coming out all confused and ******** sounding. *points to self*

 

[Shai'tan]

&gt;So what true Christian Moral is wrong to you, or is hindering your rights?? Also I do not think the government sets the Morals it is the community that we live in.

What Christian moral is NOT wrong to me ('cept for lying, I just HATE lies!)Muhahaha..
First, as stated above, they are all based on fear, rather than compassion.
How bout' pres. Bush coming to like the idea that we can tax all the citizens to help pay for little christian kidz to go to their christian schools.
That is horridly wrong.

Queen Elizibeth was the first historically recognized leader to really put it out there and state that religion and Government do NOT mix.
"Let us not make windows into men's souls." - The one and only, Lil' Queen Elizabeth. And she was christian.

so Nya Nya!.. hehe
GL, HF, Guiness makes you stronger! /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Guest]

<font color=red>"No, but most people silently condoning these things would also not vote against such a law, which makes it a distinct possibility that such could be passed."</font color=red>
Yes and its called Majority rules.

 

[Wisty]

&gt;&gt; &gt; ....believe in satan...You must be confusing Christians with satanists, right?

&gt; Sorry if I may have misposted a important form of my statement.
I meant, that if a christian "believes" in the existence of satan (not worships him), then yadda yadda...

Doesn't matter what you say nor how anyone might try to defend it, the bottom Christian line is, satan is not a god and never will be to any Christian. Nor is anyone/thing else. The only God is God Himself. So there is no way a Christian who accepts or doesn't accept satan would be polytheist. See?

And as for my opinions about free will and the All-Knowing All-Everything God, if the previous religious threads are still accessible, I said it all there and don't want to repeat. Though for newcomers and those who want to do so, be my guest. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

Besides which I have a flavor of Christianity that, as far as I've been able to find, few have. Maybe one day I will be able to condense the way I believe/live into something less than 200 pages. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

As for your confusions and angers over things in the bible or various faiths, we all have those, me included. We're each here to walk our separate paths and learn our individual lessons and arrive at wherever we arrive, while hopefully enjoying at least much of the route along the way -- including finding God and the true meaning of believing in Him. Many paths, many lessons, many hits and misses, many many things -- we're all unique -- one of a kind -- perfecting ourselves (if we choose), defining, redefining, for a reason -- discovered here, or later, depending. Your goal should be, to be happy and healthy, and help others to be likewise. Ideally. It does get muddled. People make it difficult. As does survival, circumstance, and things beyond our control. Nevertheless, that should be the underlining goal, at all times. Difficult. But with God, it is said, All Things Are Possible. Your choice to believe that or not.

 

[Wisty]

&gt; Are you truly this ignorant of world affairs or is this a troll?

No I'm not. Just because I don't HATE your country so much that anything it does would tick me off -- I don't even know WHAT country yours is. And frankly don't care.

re, about my using the "what if" form.

&gt; If your point is so weak that you have to make up stuff to get it across it is hardly valid

There are times "what if" works; other times hard facts. And funny that you'd chide me for it, when you do similar, as do many people on this forum. My mistake -- I had forgotten that I had put you on "ignore" -- not because we disagree, but because you are rude, you allow no one else to have opinions since you make it clear that yours are the only ones valid, you are so eager to argue and to prove your case (whether you are right or wrong) that you lose sight of meaningful and interesting discourse along the way, etc., and etc.

We disagree about the Iraqi war. And until years hence when ALL facts make their way into the records, there is nothing you can say that will sway me since I don't value your opinion on anything, nor do I trust your facts. You are being emotional about this, and no one can discuss anything with someone who is reacting from gut level.

Personally I feel Saddam should have been taken out years ago. I'm disgusted it was never really attempted and persevered by ALL free countries. That most knew some of what Saddam was doing, and yet everyone just looked the other way. Isn't that guilty by association or something? If you all knew someone in another city was gassing and raping and mutilating and murdering innocent people, yet you just shrugged and said, "It's not my city. Not my problem." ?? Sovereign country, you say? Bah! I think the global laws need changed, so that "sovereign's" such as Saddam automatically come under special, unique paragraphs within that law, so that they can be taken out and done away with while it can still be done. I still don't understand why invasion of Iraq was so vetoed. But don't bother to tell me. As I said, I don't respect nor trust your replies because you dont' discuss, you merely go to war with anyone who disagrees with you. I'll wait for history to give me the real facts on this, if I'm still around by then.

 

[Wisty]

*sigh* You didn't quote me fully. I hate it when you people do that. You end up twisting things out of context.

My original post said: You've got a point there; and you've sorta not got a point there. And I went on to explain what I meant, that some Christians are blind, mindless, and would ban anything they're told to ban; while others are wiser. But that even if Christians did ban everything, it would not take away a person's free will (and I explained that, too), except in cases of POW's (and I explained that, too.) My post was mostly to explain the nature of free will, not to expound on which interpretation of bible and Christian sect was right or wrong. I'm surprised you didn't notice that.

Though I do agree with your point about "morality/freedom" and disagree, too. (See, nothing is ever black and white, and you know that.) The crux of the problem is that "morality" can be defined in so many different ways by so many different people and ever-changing. Though I would guess my morals and your morals and our list of morals are a lot closer than say (from things they've posted) Jags, Dev's, Trill's, Thor's, etc., etc. Though me compared to someone who lives by every letter of the bible or even a very devout Christian (and even some devout holy people of other religions) I might very well appear lacking. Probably. Because even though I am extremely moral, I am also a one-on-one case; based on the reasons and situation and heart of each person involved. It's not all black and white or even gray to me. Some things, yes. That is, some things you just do not do, period -- which is why we have many laws, based on these things. But also, there are ethical laws not on the books but nonetheless as important, such as, I'd never cheat on a BF or husband (whereas many people here, male or female, have no qualms whatsoever about cheating on their s.o.'s or dreaming about it); I don't steal, I don't lie (sometimes I screw up, sometimes I mix up facts, sometimes I'm pissed off and spew, sometimes I'm so wounded I automatically wound back or not), I don't mindlessly gossip nor for fun of it (when I talk about someone else, it's always for a reason, such as, I'm angry and need to vent, I'm confused and need to figure out the situation, I'm concerned or worried, I'm passing on important information to protect someone -- such as, if I hired someone to do a job here and they did a lousy job or stole from me, I'd pass all that on to everyone in earshot to warn them not to hire the person.) And other ethical unwritten laws. However, on the other hand, I would also live with a man, sans marriage. I believe marriage to be in the heart and mind, not on a piece of paper. Though if legally we needed to marry, for children or benefits or because we just wanted to, I would -- then -- not now. I want no more of marriage. I may not live always by the biblical laws of old in render-unto-Caesar, but within my heart and mind and motives, they are often even more pure than those who follow the bible to the letter. You cannot know unless you are inside this mind/heart. And you cannot be. And it's too difficult to share. So you'll just have to accept it that I am moral -- far more than most, but less than others -- all the while in heart and mind my motives are genuine and pure, sans now and then temporary insanity or a good raging clears-air fit, which I don't indulge in much anymore. But people surely sat up and listened whenever I did. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Wisty]

&gt; Now, the question still stands, is the man a good man, would you say he has a bad philosphy?

I would say you just described Saddam AND how the rest of the world just shrugged and didn't bother to get involved in the suffering of Iraq until Pres. Bush took it upon himself. You also described Hitler AND how the rest of the world let all that go on and on until millions of Jews and others were tortured and slaughtered.

Proved my point. Reinforced my support of Iraq, even as sad as I am that anyone should have to die in order to free others. I wish there were another way, but as violent and stupid as the human race is I don't see any other way -- especially when peaceful talks don't do with the likes of Saddam. Not one peaceful talk would have budged Saddam a mm! A nano mm! So, then, we just shrug and walk away saying, "Gee, he's a sovereign country, must not intervene" and let him go on creating a hell like you have no clue, while getting stronger and stronger until one day, like Hitler, he tries to take on the whole blind stupid world?

But, what point are you trying to make with your story? I can't seem to find it. Are we on two different trains going two different directions, waving as we pass? /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Guest]

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What Christian moral is NOT wrong to me ('cept for lying, I just HATE lies!)Muhahaha..

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Name one? It has to be a Christian moral based on Christian Commandments, not social or cultural bias.

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First, as stated above, they are all based on fear, rather than compassion.

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You are very far from the Truth. Yes some denominations teach Hell and Brimstone, and yes some teach to Fear His wraft on a Face value. But this is the wrong reasons to live and Love Him. We have a Complete Awe of him though which some can percive as fear it is human nature to some, but I can say I do not live in fear of him. Do you understand what Heavan is? It is in constant being of his love and goodness, Hell is in the constant lack of his Love and Goodness. So why would someone want to be around someone of Good if they fear Him?

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How bout' pres. Bush coming to like the idea that we can tax all the citizens to help pay for little christian kidz to go to their christian schools.
That is horridly wrong.

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Not sure what you are talking about? I know there is some School vouchers going thru the Country, but that is not Christian alone, it goes for all walks of Life.

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Queen Elizibeth was the first historically recognized leader to really put it out there and state that religion and Government do NOT mix.
"Let us not make windows into men's souls." - The one and only, Lil' Queen Elizabeth. And she was christian.

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The founding Fathers of this Country where fundementalist Christians as well, and they made our laws to seperate the State and Church. This is still going till today, is it not? Or do you shake at the sight of "In God we Trust" on someones Idol?

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So why do some christians tell me they fear god?
Or why do they teach their children to fear what "god" will do to them if they do not perfectly comply to the rules.
Last time my x-gf made me go to church with her, the "youth pastor" was telling the people to give money to send missionarries to children who had never known god.
Children in other countries, in tribes far from civilization and such.
He stated that these children were going to go to hell because (and it was god's fault), they had never learn of the existence of god.
First off, I will never worship a god who makes people just to send them to hell for what appears to be his ammusement.
And I thought christians beleived that ONLY and I mean ONLY GOD can judge people.
Where the heck does this youth pastor get off deciding these children are going to hell?

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So is this your only interaction of Christianity? I do see this attitude of some people though and it drives me up the wall, we have no way of Knowing who is or who is not going to Heavan or Hell. All I know is if I and going to Heavan or Hell thru Jesus Christ. We do not know if someone who has not heard his Gospel or been Witnessed to his Glory will or not. But I can say that if all of God is good, then all Good must be of God.

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Eg. God exists. He creates everything, including humans w/ free will. However, he knows everything that has happened and all that will happen. so he creates an environment, and a person, and he knows what they are going to do. In fact, he creates each person knowing why he makes them, what their "purpose" is. So, how can it possibly be free will if we are bound to do EXACTLY what we do?

Thats why I also feel that if "god" created the devil, than he wanted "evil" to be in the world.
All this would of course take a belief in the christian religion, which I lack. Just my opinion tho.

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Because on our realm it is our decisions and action of Free will that determime our Future. The best way I can say it is that God exists on a differant Plane, he able to see and touch our Plane like a stream, he can see the stream from the Begining to the End and touch and look at anytime inbetween. I think we are starting to see a differant Definition of God emerging, he is not the mythical and magical being of the old and present. He is a weilder of natural laws, and created the universe with those laws, now is he limited to those natural laws? Thats hard to determine, becuase we have not yet defined those laws oursleves or every will.

 

[Guest]

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Ummm, you may want to restate that...it's Catholic morals that do not allow divorce...I am not aware of any other Christian religion that is as strongly against it...la

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Not true there are allot of Protostent theoligies that forbid Divorce. I was raised in a Quaker theoligy and were forbiddin to have it, if your spouse left God and left you, you could not remarry period. Not that I agree with it though, I feel Divorce is acceptible in certain Circumstances of course.

 

[Guest]

Perhaps if you'd just answer the question, you might find out. This has nothing to do with the "worlds" reaction, Saddam or Hitler.

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let him go on creating a hell like you have no clue

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Either you're rather naive what "hell like you have no clue" really is, or you're vastly overstating the situation.

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while getting stronger and stronger until one day, like Hitler, he tries to take on the whole blind stupid world?

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Yeah right, even at the top of his power and support, he couldn't even defeat Iran, he could take out Kuwait, which only mattered because US/UK has major oil deals there....he never was and never could be a serious threat to the world. And its completely ludicrious claim that he'd "take over the world", and before you say "That is the same with Hitler", its not, Hitler had vastly more ressources and military might avaliable at a time where conditions favored him, Saddam couldn't even make a tiny dent in the US invasion force and you think he could take over the world?...LOL

 

[imported_snoopy]

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&gt; Are you truly this ignorant of world affairs or is this a troll?

No I'm not. Just because I don't HATE your country so much that anything it does would tick me off -- I don't even know WHAT country yours is. And frankly don't care.


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Umm...once again...do you have a reading disability? We were discussing the severity of Saddams actions in relation to the rest of the world...not where I live. Why the diatribe about whether or not you hate my country? Bet you couldn't find Canada on a map...

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There are times "what if" works; other times hard facts. And funny that you'd chide me for it, when you do similar

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I am not one that regularly plays what if...you are making up stuff (yet again).

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I had forgotten that I had put you on "ignore" -- not because we disagree, but because you are rude

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Actually the last time you said you were going to ignore me was when I took apart one of your posts...showing how you changed facts mid thread and quite thoroughly misrepresented (the RoC says I can't call you a liar so I won't) a situation to 'prove your point'.

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you allow no one else to have opinions since you make it clear that yours are the only ones valid

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Hmm...seems to me that Budner thinks you guys should have gone to war...I disagree with that. He also acknowledges that your government lied about it's reasons for going to war and that whole mess was wrong. Though I disagree with his opinion that a war (not the one the US fought but a different war) was justified, he does not back it up with ignorant fantasies about the scope and depth of Saddam's regime. Lots of people have opinions I disagree with. If you ever tried to use logic and reason in your beliefs and arguements you would get attacked a lot less here...and people like me would not be able to take apart a logically sound thesis.

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We disagree about the Iraqi war.

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And this is a problem for many in western society...we see it as a disagreement...we have no clue as to the human consequences of our actions. There are right now a lot of dead people, or others living in complete misery, because of the opinions of people like you.

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You are being emotional about this

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Yes yes yes...and you are arguing from principals of cold logic and reason. I suspect that you are the only one here who thinks you do anything but argue from a state of constant hysteria.

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I'll wait for history to give me the real facts on this, if I'm still around by then.

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And unlike those who are in the middle of this war, you have the luxury of sitting around and waiting (btw...the facts seem to be out there for public consumption...do you not read the news?). It's nice that you can sit and play armchair quarterback with their lives...

 

[Guest]

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Umm...once again...do you have a reading disability? We were discussing the severity of Saddams actions in relation to the rest of the world...not where I live. Why the diatribe about whether or not you hate my country? Bet you couldn't find Canada on a map...

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*gives everyone chill pills*...lets all take a deep breath.

And yeah, I am mr. kettle, but I am saying this anyway.

 

[imported_snoopy]

What colour are they?

 

[Guest]

Adventist

 

[Guest]

<font color=red>&gt;&gt;Who are we to question God? </font color=red>

Not I. Indeed, if God were to come and speak to me, I would listen very intently.

However, thus far God has not seen fit to do so, and I reserve the right to question any and everything that humans may say, no matter whether they speak for science, the occult, Allah, the Buddha, or the one Christians and ancient Jewish scribes call "God."

Ergo, I also reserve the right to question anyone posting on this forum.

But God? No. I would not question God. I actually ask God lots of things all the time. I haven't heard a peep. Perhaps it's because I'm deaf, or haven't learned yet how to listen. If anyone one has suggestions, I'd be pleased to entertain them. I should point out that I have not heard an answer to one of my most basic questions: "Do You exist?"

 

[Guest]

I think God is on UHF whilst I am on VLF.....oh well.

 

[Wisty]

&gt; Perhaps if you'd just answer the question, you might find out. This has nothing to do with the "worlds" reaction, Saddam or Hitler.

Ok, since you asked, I'll try to play along. Let's see, repeating what you've laid out: That there is no way guy 1 could mistake that sicko 2 was actually molesting and planning to kill the young girls, yet guy 1 refused to do anything even though he knew he COULD SAVE the girls. Instead he just did not care, repeating did not care, and had no reasons otherwise not to intervene even though he could have won. Instead he just walked away, and allowed the children to suffer and die. Then he's an accessory to the crime. He's a useless human being.

There, did I answer it right yet? *waits to hear what LC is getting at*

 

[Wisty]

&gt; But God? No. I would not question God.

That's very nice to know. I hope He speaks to you, or rather, that you can Hear Him speaking to you -- in your heart/mind/spirit -- you probably will never hear audible words. Then again, some people say they have. I've never heard audible words. But He has spoken to me in my spirit, heart, mind. Sometimes (and for such a long time) He spoke not to me, or He did but I Heard Him not.

Well anyway, I know you don't want me to rehash all that.

My prayer: May God touch you soon and or you Feel His touch and Find the Joy, Wisdom, Hope, and Peace in It, if that's ok with you that I wish it.

 

[Guest]

Thats very good, thank you.

If this guy is an accessory to the crime and not a good guy...how come you're portraying God as being good?...God does all the things this guy did 10000000 times more, are you going to say that Gods philosophy and plans are more worth than all that suffering, than the suffering of those two little girls?, if so, why wasn't the mans plans and philosophy more worth than so?...why worship a being that not only KNOW these things happen, SEES these things happen and has the POWER to stop these things from happening?

Would it really interfere with humanitys "free will" if God made it so that people could not be born pedophile or any other sexuality that deviates from the norm?, would it do it if he removed diseases that hits innocent children from birth...or are these acceptable sacrifices in his "grand plan".

 

[chippac]

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or any other sexuality

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*edits out sexuality to replace it with paraphilia*

 

[Guest]

Thats up to you, I don't see why I should change it.

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>And whose morality do we use? Remember in 18th century Japan it was morally acceptable to have sex with boys. In china at one point cannibalism was acceptable. In Africa it is acceptable to mutilate the genetalia of young women. So do we use Western morality or someone elses? </font color=blue>

God's morality as expressed by him.

 

[Guest]

Then please tell us of this morality of his...tell us his "laws".

 

[chippac]

"Sexuality" refers to gender specific and directed behavior. Paraphilia refers to objects (toys, bestiality, cornnuts) or activites, such as fetishes (bondage, whipping cream etc), non consentual or consentual sex involving children or adults (****, pedophila), etc. Paraphilia and what you are referring to as 'sexualities' are essentially offshoots of basic sexual beahvior and originate in higher brain function.

 

[Guest]

Its an encompassing name....though I don't know why **** or childmolesting is added, those are not sexualities, they're actions taken by someone, just like "having sex" is not a sexuality. I really do not like the name since it has philia in it, which denotes abnormality.

 

[chippac]

Actually, paraphilia still appiles regardless if the act is commited; it is about desire, in this case 'objects/activities of desire(s)'. I agree the '-philia' suffix carries enormours stigma though take heart, there is such thing as normophilia, which basically refers to average heterosexual vanilla sex /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Paraphilia refers to objects (toys, bestiality, <font color=red>cornnuts</font color=red>)

<hr></blockquote>
?????? Or do I even want to know?

 

[chippac]

ROTFL... /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

It's a long story, maybe Devin can explain *shudder*. No, I do not have a corrnut fetish, thanks. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Roscoe]

Love God with all of your being and love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Guest]

<font color=blue>&gt;&gt;Love God with all of your being and love your neighbor as yourself.</font color=blue>

That can't be all there is.

You left out the part about homosexuals, didn't you? You know, not allowing them to marry, expelling them from schools, etc. You left out the part about hating Muslims and the French. You left out the part about having follow some a particular political movement. You left out the part about not using one's brain and not thinking for one's self.

If that's all there is to being "moral," there isn't a single moral person upon the face of the planet.

Perhaps the apparent discrepency comes from a definition of the word "neighbor." If people don't attend your church, or vote your way, or think about what you don't like to think about, then their not your "neighbor," even though they may live next door, and therefore you don't have to love them or treat them the same.

Yeah, that must be it.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Love God with all of your being and love your neighbor as yourself.

<hr></blockquote>

So everything else goes?

And I'm supposed to make some sort of gay relationsship with my neighbour?

Please make up your mind.

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>That can't be all there is. </font color=blue>

Yup - that is the embodiment of the spirit of the law. It's our penchant to equivocate over the letter of the law that creates so much trouble. If one would first love God then the issues of the letter of the law don't really become issues whatsoever.

<font color=blue>You left out the part about homosexuals, didn't you? You know, not allowing them to marry, expelling them from schools, etc. You left out the part about hating Muslims and the French. You left out the part about having follow some a particular political movement. You left out the part about not using one's brain and not thinking for one's self. </font color=blue>

I have not received my talking points on those issues today. Sorry. Next!

<font color=blue>If that's all there is to being "moral," there isn't a single moral person upon the face of the planet. </font color=blue>

Glass half empty kind of attitude isn't that? I find the notion of 'Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself' to be particularly liberating. Particularly when I consider the broader message of the Gospel behind it. It's not about do's and don'ts in other words. I'll talk to that issue in a moment in response to LC.

<font color=blue>Perhaps the apparent discrepency comes from a definition of the word "neighbor." If people don't attend your church, or vote your way, or think about what you don't like to think about, then their not your "neighbor," even though they may live next door, and therefore you don't have to love them or treat them the same. </font color=blue>

Perhaps you're overlooking the possibility that having an opinion about various topics does not necessarily mean that one fits the stereotypical mold to which you seem to be referring.

<font color=blue>Yeah, that must be it. </font color=blue>

Or maybe not. ;-)


<font color=blue>LC says: So everything else goes? </font color=blue>

Everything is permissable - not everything is beneficial.

<font color=blue>And I'm supposed to make some sort of gay relationsship with my neighbour? </font color=blue>

*feeds the troll*

<font color=blue>Please make up your mind.</font color=blue>

Ok.

 

[imported_JagdWulfe]

"So what true Christian Moral is wrong to you, or is hindering your rights?? Also I do not think the government sets the Morals it is the community that we live in."

Let's see they want to stop homosexuality &lt;not my bag baby but still it's a person right to choose who they want to sleep with&gt;. Christians are out to ban pornography, alcohol, music that does not fit their liking and etc etc.

 

[imported_JagdWulfe]

"God's morality as expressed by him. "

Which God? ummm Islam permits Bigamy, Hindu worships rats, Wiccans worship Gai. Unless a God comes down and expressly tells me what it's morality is I will correctly assume that any religon's morality is based on the whims of whoever wrote their little book.

 

[Wisty]

&gt; Thats very good, thank you.

I see now what you were getting at. Yeah, I know, it is very confusing about God, as to why bad things happen. I don't really have answers, and I often wonder about all the possible reasons why things are as they are, in addition to what I understand of the bible. Supposedly, there is no reincarnation in the Christian bible, only ressurections; but I sometimes wonder if the people who wind up being tortured or murdered (such as your example of the 2 little girls) are living a reincarnation, as the victims they had done likewise, in a previous life of theirs.

We were never promised that things would be "easy" in this life and we were not promised we would never suffer.

None of this shakes my beliefs anymore. Just because I don't have the answers, yet, doesn't mean there aren't any, or that there is no God, or that He stopped caring. I'm at a point that no matter what happens in or about my life, to me or anyone else, it will not prevent me from believing in God and being a Christian and accepting Jesus. It's not a brainwashing on my part either. I've been on every side of the issue and even walked totally away from it for years, but my heart dies and I begin to fail whenever I walk away. And too many good experiences have occured while in the faith, just as too many bad ones occured while out of the faith.

I wish I had answers, for you doubters -- I'm not worried about the answers -- they will come, eventually, in this life or the next. God has asked us to Believe in Him and to lean on Him and to Hope and Trust even during the worst of times. And so I do. It's at the point where I can do nothing but that. It just feels too foreign to me to be empty of faith and apart from God.

BTW, the evil things that go on in the world are not God's fault. It's PEOPLE's fault. If people weren't going around doing these insane, evil, cruel, selfish, etc., things against each other, this life we live would be incredibly joyous -- and we'd have to worry only about mother nature and accidents and illnesses for which we haven't yet perfected cures. Much of the misery in life is caused by PEOPLE. And the highest percentage of crimes, specially violent crimes, are done by MALE people. They are both our protectors and our criminals. From one extreme to the next.

You can blame God if you want for all that ails the human race, but I say it's our own fault. We don't HAVE to be this rotten. We have choices.

Anyhow, do you think God should make everything perfect on earth, and force everyone to play nice? Would we learn anything and perfect our souls and strengthen our spirits if we were mere puppets on strings?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Let's see they want to stop homosexuality &lt;not my bag baby but still it's a person right to choose who they want to sleep with&gt;. Christians are out to ban pornography, alcohol, music that does not fit their liking and etc etc.

<hr></blockquote>
Those are not Christian singular crusades by any means. Allot of other non-religous communities are dead set against those things as well.

Give me a example of a singular Christian Moral that is being imposed on you.

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>Which God? ummm Islam permits Bigamy, Hindu worships rats, Wiccans worship Gai. Unless a God comes down and expressly tells me what it's morality is I will correctly assume that any religon's morality is based on the whims of whoever wrote their little book. </font color=blue>

The Christian God. The others are just posers.

 

[Amythest Rose]

How do *you* know the xtain god is not the poser? Prove to me that the xtain god is the right one. You cant.

Unless god or what ever power maybe shows up and goes "Hi I am God" there is no way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what and whos god is right.

You belive yours is right becuase that is what you wish to belive. But just becuase you belive it does not make it so. Belief is nothing more then a personal disicion.

 

[chippac]

<blockquote><hr>

How do *you* know the xtain god is not the poser?

<hr></blockquote>

Easy! Why else would otherwise sane people believe the earth's age is a fraction of the known history of some races and cause death and suffering upon millions? Surely that fervent faith that true reality and "morality" is exactly as written by stone age Jews must convince you!!!

 

[imported_snoopy]

Nononono....the correct answer is that the bible tells us so silly. Everything in the bible is irrefutable because it is inspired by God. How do we know this? Why the bible tells us this too of course. And since it is inspired by god it has to be right. Nuff said. QED

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>How do *you* know the xtain god is not the poser? Prove to me that the xtain god is the right one. You cant. </font color=blue>

I believe I can but I guess there's no point in discussing it with you since you've made up your mind about what I can or cannot do.

<font color=blue>Unless god or what ever power maybe shows up and goes "Hi I am God" there is no way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what and whos god is right. </font color=blue>

Well, he has and he does do that - but that's for us whackos to believe. At a purely philosophical leve, however, I disagree. And there are many people who fundamentally believe something to be true without any impirical evidence based upon a logical thought process. Evolution comes to mind. I believe that a logical thought process will cause one to accept a belief that God exists. And I believe that a careful consideration of the great philosophical issues of the ages will lead one to conclude that the Christian God is the best answer to them all.

<font color=blue>You belive yours is right becuase that is what you wish to belive. But just becuase you belive it does not make it so. Belief is nothing more then a personal disicion.</font color=blue>

Truth is truth whether I believe it or not. I can argue all day long that the earth is flat but my protests doesn't alter the fact that the earth is round. I agree that ultimately our choice to accept the truth or reject it for a fabrication is a personal decision - but it doesn't change the truth.

 

[Amythest Rose]

Your missing the point. Belife in a god or gods is a purely subjectionable thing. The bible.. well it makes for interesting reading but it has been translated and twisted so that todays bible is a bit off from the originally.

But Every religion says that their's is the one true religion. But because there can never be absolute concrete proof. Religion is subjective. You belive that your God/ religion is the true one because that is what you decide to belive.

Just like you said just becuase you belive something does not make it so. Some people need religion becuase of needing something bigger then themselves. But as to who is right and who is wrong... well there is only one way to find that out.. .and that is when ya die.

 

[Roscoe]

<font color=blue>Your missing the point. Belife in a god or gods is a purely subjectionable thing. The bible.. well it makes for interesting reading but it has been translated and twisted so that todays bible is a bit off from the originally. </font color=blue>

You know - there are quite a number of secular biblical scholars who would argue with you that you're without a doubt wrong. The Bible is one of the most studied books in all of modern history. It is also the most copied book in all of modern history. From a textual criticism standpoint it can be demonstrated that what we have today in regards to modern translations as well as copies in other various languages is more reliable than any other document in existence. Your statement, I'm afraid, is made in ignorance.

<font color=blue>But Every religion says that their's is the one true religion. But because there can never be absolute concrete proof. Religion is subjective. You belive that your God/ religion is the true one because that is what you decide to belive. </font color=blue>

Someone's gotta be right - even the atheist has that opportunity to prove it. You keep telling me that I believe what I believe simply because I decided to do so. While in a simplistic way you're absolutely 100% correct - you are failing to realize that not everyone just absractly or obliquely chooses a path. I know I haven't. I'm telling you that the evidence is there for the knowing.

<font color=blue>Just like you said just becuase you belive something does not make it so. Some people need religion becuase of needing something bigger then themselves. But as to who is right and who is wrong... well there is only one way to find that out.. .and that is when ya die.</font color=blue>

If it exsits it's knowable now. Why wait til you die to find out?