Religion Revisited?

Guest · Oct 15, 2003

Okay, so I got drunk last night, made an ass out of myself kinda on these forums, but I can't stop posting here. You're addictive. Please don't think I'm unaware of my own transgressions!

Yeah, I know this subject is redundant, but I've not been around to participate in it's discussion. Ya think we could indulge in it one more time? This is about the most exciting topic I could ever think of to debate, and would like to be able to talk about it open-mindedly. I do, however, recognize and respect those that are tired of discussing it further and only hope that they don't feel that I'd expect them to re-state the same things they have before on my behalf.

This is the way I feel, and I have to admit, I sound pretty damn arrogant, but hear me out if you have the patience.

I absolutely, 100% do not believe in a god. It's a subject I was completely obsessed with for about three years, and by far the most thought about subject I've ever uh..thought about. It was definitely not something I rushed to judgement on.

I think I started to actually 'hate' the belief in god about five years ago when my closest cousin agnozied for 8 months before he finally died of complications from a simple hernia that he wouldn't see the doctor for.

The "Church of the Firstborn" doesn't believe in doctors, they believe in faith. There's about 3,000 members all total anywhere and I don't know if you can somehow equate this with any decent religion, but they actually believe that only THEIR god is the true god and out of all the people on this planet, only they will be passing through the pearly gates. 3,000 people!

Brandon told me that god was testing his faith. The church elders came nightly to pray for him and he slowly but surely wasted away with the mantra "if I went to a doctor now, the rest of my life was a lie."

I firmly believe that his parents killed him! He had no choice, the guy was attending church in training pants! And what kind of god would you worship that would let you suffer for 8 months so you could prove your faith to him?

But overall, I have a VERY big problem with orgainzed religion (Christianity, catholocismn, etc) in that I think it's a death-sentence for our species. God is bad for our planet! With him around, Mormons will keep breeding like Rabbits, the Pope will continue to denounce abortion while frowning on birth control, and millions of us will continue to believe that all life on this planet was put here for mankind's disposal.

I think Religion itself is like a disease. Christianity in particular. It spread out of Rome or wherever and it's missionaries were brutal and unstoppable in their quest to spread it's terrifying message to all corners of the globe.

"Hey fellas, ya heard of a guy named Jesus Christ? Well we've come to spread his word and build some churches. Yeah. So anyways, he says that his God is the only one true god! What, you don't believe it? Well check this out, if for some chance you're mistaken, in the afterlife your crops won't be as fertile as others! HAH, no just kidding! You'll just spend eternity writhing in agony as you burrrn! Yep, you'll spend every waking moment wishing you were dead for forever and ever." That's called putting the fear of God into someone, and missionaries were bullies in building the church.

Oh sure, ya'all could sacrifice a virgin once a year to make sure the volcano god didn't spit up all over your village, but what's the motivation to sacrifice for your god if there is no immediate threat to your survival? I believe that Christianity was the result of religion evolving right along with our species.

But mostly what I don't like about believing in a god is that it keeps people seperate, it provides an 'us' and a 'them', and beliefs, by nature, tend to almost always obstruct a person from properly assimilating any type of outside information that might prove contradictory to that belief. It's like a trap to keep minds small. Plus, it's always given us reason to kill eachother.

Another poster states that it's hard to live a Christian lifestyle because of the pull of society's self indulgence surrounding them, but I argue that it's much more difficult to be an atheist.

How easy is it to lead a life where you have no direction and no purpose? I'd MUCH rather believe in a god then not, and realizing my own Atheism was not only uncomfortable, but just about devastating to my peace of mind.

Guest · Oct 15, 2003

I have to admit I can't tell when your drunk and when your not.

imported_snoopy · Oct 15, 2003

Don't fret brother. Jesus loves you /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

Zeon the mage · Oct 15, 2003

Almost every religion says their god is the one true god, its not singled onto Church of the First Born or catholicism or anything.

Religion will always be around, there will be mainstream religions and right wing religions and left wing religions. People just need that kind of hope in their lives, and need to think that everything they do now will be rewarded. its not really up to you to say wether or not thats a good or bad thing. But also its not up to them to preach to people who really have no interest in their ideas or beliefs. I hate preachers on either side of the religion debate. I say to each their own, and let everyone be happy and live in peace with each other.

Mystery Meat · Oct 16, 2003

I was a Christian (briefly) until I found out I'm gonna be bbq'ed in the afterlife no matter whut so I spent the time since making damn sure I earned my horns and pitchfork. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/sgrin.gif

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

I am very sorry for your cousin, it is a shame that people will not use a God-given gift that our Modern Medicine can accomplish. I am flabbergasted in that there are actually people who believe in that. God wants us to cherish and worship our Lives and he knows how precious good health is. God would never want someone to suffer like that willingly.

Ok so I will dive in for your other missive.

1st not all if even close to all of Christians think or even close to thinking that way of medical Science. JWs are close in that they will not transfuse blood in any way or organs, but that is not that same.

It is allot harder to make your own rules and roll with the Culture then it is to live a disciplined life. Not sure how you think it is not. You also never stated why you do not believe in a God, other than your cousins’ unfortunate case. That in itself is not a good reason, you are looking at one horrible and bad situation and painting a whole community and yourself with.

The big difference between being an Atheist and a Christian is reliance of Faith. Faith is a hard thing to accept for some and is a hard thing to rely on, but it is a gift that we need to cherish.

Not sure how you feel it is the end of the Humankind though? The US population is on the verge of a major Implosion, and with modern agriculture science and technology we can feed more and more.

Missionaries do all lot more then you think. Some places in the 3rd world countries or even the US medical missionaries are the only source of medical care some people can get or food. But yes there was the Ingusition, and the south american invasion. But it is in the past you cannot dwell on the past, it will just inhibit your future.

The "us" against "them" thing is off as well. Religion is what keeps people together. What other reason would people come together once a week or more without Religion? You can do things as a community and accomplish things that you alone could never do.

It can keep people small minded, but no more then if they were atheist. Mostly it is because of the migration of religion, the core to spread out. Most sciences have been transferred because of this. Algebra is Moorish, if not for the Christian conquest of Spain, the modern world might have never ever known this or learned it, it could have stayed in that region forever.

Humans are Violent by nature; we fight for what we feel is right or wrong. We have been killing each other before religion even came about. There have been just as many non-religious invasions then religious invasions.

Bethusda · Oct 16, 2003

Am an agnostic myself, but I find it a bit unfair that you single out Christianity as the epitome of stupid religions. All religions get their share of kooks and radicals. But you probably do this because, I imagine, that it is what you are most familiar with.

I believe that a religion starts out with something good that draws people in. Christianity had the message of Christ which is fundamentally good. The message of Jesus is also echoed in other belief systems. Problems start when people get together and form an organized religion. Things start out ok but the stupidity grows. Then in many cases, what is valued changes. The intent changes and distortions occur. So where you start out with a tolerant Jesus who taught the respect of the good samaritan (a non-believer) you end up with, 15 to 16 hundred years later, a Spanish inquisition which tortured and killed non-believers in the very name of Jesus.

The message is still there, but it gets buried or diminished. Organized religions also tend to gravitate to the material or physical things. Physical acts of wearing certain clothing, baptism, confession, to even trivialities of hair style take precedence as the measuring stick of faith. Unscrupulous people also take advantage of religions and those who are truly faithful. These activities change the intent further.

Where I live we have a few of these crazy snake churches. Because of ONE line in the Bible, a church grew where these people feel it necessary to test one's faith handling poisoneous snakes. Idiots. Course I live in the Bible Belt, so I see a lot of ridiculousness. One church forbids dancing, another musical instruments (but just singing is okay). Some forbid drinking, others prescribe that women can never cut their hair, ever. Some believe in pre-destination, others do not.

Secular aspects of life also get rolled up into religions. Few people are so wrong as Biblical literalists because religion is never s set thing. Different societies and generations take a different spin to it.

Another problem with religions like Christianity, as you sort of mentioned about the 'temptaions of society', is that they make evil what is natural. In the Christian view, sex is a sin. But it is not healthy to do these things. I don't advocate irresponsible behavior or anything, but sex is a natural and necessary function to human beings. Women are not weak or evil either.

Maybe you should remind your cousins family that their God also gave them brains which they could USE to, I don't know, go to a doctor. My condolences on the needless loss of your cousin. Your story reminds me of a joke you might pass on to them:

<blockquote><hr>

A town by the Missouri River was getting flooded out. One God-fearing man, trapped on the roof of his house. His neighbors came by, riding the rising waters in their bass boat and asked him if he needed help.

"No, I will wait for the Lord to save me," he declared in firm belief.

His neighbors could not convince him to get in their boat, so they went on to safety. A couple hours later, a motor boat with some rescue workers came by and offered to save the man.

"No," he stated, "God will save me."

Despite their best efforts, they could not convince the man to leave his roof, so they reluctantly went on to save others. The man continued to pray. Later that afternoon, as the waters were reaching record heights, a rescue helicopter flew overhead and tried to save the man.

"No, God will save me this day," he said.

No matter what the copter crew sould say, they could not convince this man to take the rope. So they flew on in hopes of saving others. About an hour later the water crested the man's roof, and washed him over. He died in the torrent.

Soon after, his spirit arrived at Heaven. Once he got sorted out, he went to confront God.

"Lord," he said, "I, your loyal and loving servant, prayed and prayed, yet you did not save me from the flood? Why is this?"

"What are you talking about," God said exasperated, "I sent you a frickin' bass boat, a rescue crew and a damned helicopter!"

<hr></blockquote>

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

I was raised in churches like that. It was one of the reasons I left Christianity for awhile, but I did keep allot of the good morals, and understood what he meant. Yes allot of Churches have lost the meaning of Christ and what he was about and what he taught.

I am not sure what you mean by the sex thing? Sex is a sin if you are not married or if you commit Adultry. God meant Sex to be pleasurable so we would procreate more. This is the core reason why the Vatican prohibits Birth Control, though still makes no reason to me as right. But oh well I do not have to worry about it anyhow, kinda impossible for me to have another Kid.

Good joke BTW /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

Sex is considered a sin because constantine the great, who cobbled the most common version of the new testament together and held a coucil to declare jesus christ divine three centuries after his death, was attempting to stamp out paganism which revered woman and set them equal to men in their religion, if not above. Also why women can't go very high up in the church. It is small minded to think that any god would make the distinction between two sexes to grant that one of them would be more able to carry his word than the other.

One of the most effective smear campaigns in all of history. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

*What other reason would people come together once a week or more without Religion? *

Football? BBQ? Dance? AA meeting?

*Algebra is Moorish, if not for the Christian conquest of Spain, the modern world might have never ever known this or learned it, it could have stayed in that region forever. *

Check your history books, man. The Arabs preserved and developed the legacy of ancient science (Egypt, Greece etc.) when it was being destroyed by the church as pagan. Many, many Arab books in Spain were destroyed by the good christians after the reconquista, it was the scholars who saved some of them risking their own lives, not the domini canes. Just like they destroyed later almost all the written records of the Mayas and Aztecas. I just hate people who burn books... whoever they are.

imported_Arla · Oct 16, 2003

<blockquote><hr>

What other reason would people come together once a week or more without Religion?

<hr></blockquote>

I know plenty of people who come together once a week or more without religion. D&D gamers. My quilting guild. The Swim Team at the high school.

They all accomplish something. Matter of fact, my quilting guild makes baby quilts for newborns of poverty-line families that are given away at the hospital. We are NOT a religious group - we just all feel that helping the less fortunate is a good thing for our group.

Just because YOU are xtian and choose to do good deeds does not mean that everyone who does things for others is automatically religious or xtian.

And quite frankly - I don't want your "Peace" with me.

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

May peace be with you always...la

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

Well I knew that part about Constantine. I only ever heard of Sex is a Sin if you use as a sin of the flesh, or for those not married.

If I am mistaken woman were actually High in the ranks of the Church till then. I think it is wrong as well, I am not sure if we will have RC Female Priests or not in my Lifetime, but I am sure I will see Female Deacons again. So things are changing I hope, but only time will tell. But there is allot of Popes to go thru till then, unless they elect someone who is Radical in beliefs of course.

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

"Football? BBQ? Dance? AA meeting?"
Ok I agree, but I did not state that the only way for people to come together. It was a opened question, sorry I did not write it like that very well. Long night in the FAB/php-bin/shared/images/icons/yawn.gif.

"Check your history books, man. The Arabs preserved and developed the legacy of ancient science (Egypt, Greece etc.) when it was being destroyed by the church as pagan. Many, many Arab books in Spain were destroyed by the good christians after the reconquista, it was the scholars who saved some of them risking their own lives, not the domini canes. Just like they destroyed later almost all the written records of the Mayas and Aztecas. I just hate people who burn books... whoever they are."

Ok I did, look at how Algrebra and other Sciences moved into our society. How did algebra become such a cornerstone of Modern Science?

Also I am sure the Ireland had a huge part of Literary and education preservation as well, and this was almost directly due to St. Patrick.

Ditto on the Book Burnings/php-bin/shared/images/icons/sad.gif

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

"Just because YOU are xtian and choose to do good deeds does not mean that everyone who does things for others is automatically religious or xtian."

Please find a Post that I have ever stated that, EVER. You automactically place a Blackmark on me, not that I even really care(it is as it was written). But yet you want to world to to be open to tolerance of ones individuality and not stereo-type due to ones associations. But yet you auto-brand me that because of my Religion. I did not once speak of me Being in any way superior to you or anyone else or have I ever or will. Are you that Blinded by your hatred, are you that bitter? If not what is it then?

"And quite frankly - I don't want your "Peace" with me."
Offer is always there, take it as you will.

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

and also with you!

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

>>I absolutely, 100% do not believe in a god.
and
>>But overall, I have a VERY big problem with orgainzed religion . . . God is bad for our planet!

God, and "organized religion" are not the same thing. Let's deal with the second part first.

I got a call from Dubya last night. He'd gotten himself into a jam that he couldn't figure a way out of. You see, he's actually a liberal at heart, and all the dopey things he did was an act, a kind of satire on how not to be. Only it backfired and people believed in that persona. Now they're acting and thinking just as stupidly as his performance had been, and he was wondering how to go about undoing the damage. He told me to post it here on the forum to let other people know, so I'm doing just that. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

So, did I really speak with Dubya last night? Am I really doing that he asked? Saying so doesn't necessarily make it so. Just because people are saying they are speaking for God, doesn't necessarily make it so. In fact, unless God is hopelessly schizophrenic, at MOST there can only be ONE "true" religion of God (if even that), which means the other 99,999 are lying through their teeth, even if they don't realize it (i.e. incredibly clueless).

Assuming, of course, that there IS a God.

Which brings us to the first point you made. Isn't 100% not believing in God actually an act of faith in itself? Isn't atheism a leap of faith? Do you have evidence there is NO God. I don't think so. All you have is lack of evidence that there IS a God. Does lack of evidence prove the contrary?

Look around the room you are sitting in. Find evidence that Kiev (Kyjiv), a city purported to be in the Ukraine, actually exists. Any luck? Perhaps you found a book that mentioned Kiev. I can find a book that mentions God. Other than that, what evidence have you that Kiev exists? None. Is lack of evidence therefore proof of non-existence? I don't think so.

>> . . . but I argue that it's much more difficult to be an atheist. 

Difficult? It's impossible for me to be one because I lack the faith to have an unfounded dis-belief in God. Lacking evidence one way or another, I simply cannot know. Therefore, I'm an agnostic.

Jermosh--The big difference between being an Atheist and a Christian is reliance of Faith.

As you've already read above, I disagree. I think that's one of areas where atheists and Christians share something in common.

>>Religion is what keeps people together.

I disagree there. It's one of the things that keeps people divided.

Sarsmi--Sex is considered a sin because constantine the great, who cobbled the most common version of the new testament together and held a coucil to declare jesus christ divine three centuries after his death, was attempting to stamp out paganism which revered woman and set them equal to men in their religion, if not above. Also why women can't go very high up in the church. It is small minded to think that any god would make the distinction between two sexes to grant that one of them would be more able to carry his word than the other. 

Exactly right. It's amazing how few people bother to learn the history of a religion that is so central to their lives.

Magdalene--I just hate people who burn books... whoever they are.

100% agreement. Anyone who fears books does not have a solid foundation in their own faith or beliefs.

Arla--And quite frankly - I don't want your "Peace" with me. 

Here, let me offer you some agnostic peace, untainted by any religious dogma.

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

It's not easy to convince enthusiastic zealots of something /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

So, for you killing and expelling the Arabs from Spain was the only way for Western civilization to acquire algebra knowledge? They would not give it to us otherwise? We would have never discovered it? Well maybe not, as sciences were regarded as pagan dark arts. Galileo, thou shalt be avenged...

I agree about Ireland and Irish monasteries, but it was a very special situation for many reasons (also because it was so far away from Rome).

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

<blockquote><hr>

unless God is hopelessly schizophrenic, at MOST there can only be ONE "true" religion of God (if even that), which means the other 99,999 are lying through their teeth, even if they don't realize it (i.e. incredibly clueless).

<hr></blockquote> And why would they do this? Out of sheer ignorance. So you take the crap that's been fed to you, sift through it and eventually come to the conclusion that people really don't know much of anything at all except for what can be emperically proven scientific data. The existance of a god denies all laws of physics, and not only that, but from my experience, he's been assigned all-too human attributes. So coupling this with what you quoted above, I'm finding more evidence to promote my own atheism then to deny it.
I guess personally, I've reached the point that to even consider the possibility of a god, I'd have to be lying to myself and what I've learned of human nature.

The desire to believe in a god I believe is a selfish one. Those zealots that crashed into the twin towers would have themselves seen as martyrs, dying selflessly to help destory this civilization of 'infidels'. In fact, I think they're death, just like my cousin's was pretty selfish (keep in mind, they felt they were doing the 'right' thing). They died in a way wherein they couldn't had they not believed in a god. They faced death openly, believing their maker would be waiting for them with open arms on the other side. What an easy way to face death!
I think it's obvious that the entire reason behind the belief in God is to prepare ourselves, individually for our own death. And I think that facing death in that manner is self-indulgent and defies all common-sense in that these people faced death the easy way, yet somehow thought of themselves as selfless.
Hey, thanks for the condolensces for my cousin, and yeah, it sucked, but I think I was more disappointed in him then anything. His Mother recently 'cast-out' her other son from the family for having sex before marriage. No more contact PERIOD. And Ironically enough, I got off the phone with my owm Mom last night, and my Aunt is on her death-bed now because she's frickin' constipated and won't take anything for it. Talk about a family being broke apart by religion and ending in such tragedy. Idiots.

<blockquote><hr>

Isn't 100% not believing in God actually an act of faith in itself?

<hr></blockquote> I guess if you believe that if you're willing to lose all possibility of salvation, then yeah, that's kind of a leap, but I wouldn't think it one of faith. I'd rather think of it as something much more unpleasant in facing the reality that you can no longer deny.
<blockquote><hr>

All you have is lack of evidence that there IS a God. Does lack of evidence prove the contrary?

<hr></blockquote> I think that when you're looking at a tilting scale, and the side with the most evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that whether it be sacrificing virgins to volcanoes, or burning witches, humans have always been incredibly ignorant and easily assimilated into whatever belief system is most convenient for them, or that they were born into. I think that yes, coupled with what I quoted you with about 99.99% of the world being wrong, then it's not much of a leap of faith to believe that they ALL are, and disregard this 'God' notion we've invented that even the most isolated Amazonian tribe has some form of.

<blockquote><hr>

Is lack of evidence therefore proof of non-existence?

<hr></blockquote>
Of course not. But when there's overwhelming evidence that the need for a god has and always will be a part of the human condition I think we can make a safe assesment of what is or isn't BS, and how much longer are we going to go on about God with no evidence to support it's existance? If there IS no God, then there will NEVER be evidence that it exists and hopefully, somewhere in our evolution, we might be able to finally quit looking for it and accept the contrary evidence as undeniable proof.

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

My personal belief on this is that man created religion in an attempt to explain things that happened to him that defied reason. Why did the crops all die because there was no rain? Why did a baby die when it was innocent? Why was this country invaded by savages? Why was there a flood, hurricane, whatever?

As they huddled around their fires at night and looked up into the expanse of sky gradually they came to the idea that someone/something "caused" these things to happen to them for a reason. Man has always been more comfortable with an orderly universe. If there is something causing these disasters, then there is reason to believe that there might be a way of getting them to stop. So the first rituals were born and the first superstitions hatched.

It helped man deal with the uncertainties of life. If he did ritual X every fall, then spring would return at the end of winter, and the sun would rise in the morning. And it always did. See how well that one worked? If something went wrong then they sought a scapegoat to explain why. Someone had screwed up. Find the screw up and expaite it, and things would be ok again.

Since things are generally ok in an agrarian society over the long haul, this seemed to work. Over centuries these different coping strategies solidified into beliefs that eventually became religion. Over even greater times, the original reasons for certain beliefs and rituals have disappeared leaving only the dogma.

Remember, everything you now accept as a part of your eternal belief system actually had a beginning and made sense as something beyond mere ritual. You've only just forgotten the reasoning behind it now.

This is not accepting/denying the existence of god btw. I have no way of doing that. And Cyne, this is just a generalized rambling, not aimed at you in particular.

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

Just a few points.

"Jermosh--The big difference between being an Atheist and a Christian is reliance of Faith.

As you've already read above, I disagree. I think that's one of areas where atheists and Christians share something in common."
Faith is a gift that one needs to accept the exsitence of God, even though there are allot of unanswered questions. To me it is a disaplined gift, one that I need to go thru and accept on a daily basis. So to me it seems easier not to have a God and just go with the Whims of society. But yes Faith is a term that can be placed on anything. But Faith is a core of Judeo/Christian/Islam religion.
"I disagree there. It's one of the things that keeps people divided."
Maybe I am just one-sided. But I do not see that today, history yes, world yes. But in my community no, we have allot of Inner-Belief orgs and Events, we often work with a Synagod(Spelling?) that helps us with Sader dinner and the history of Passover, or we have a inner-faith homeless shelter. At my work we have a chartered group for all the religions, we have a room set aside for all types of worship, and we regulary do Charitie work and events at work together.

"Here, let me offer you some agnostic peace, untainted by any religious dogma."
Believe it or not I have had this saying along time before I refound Christ, it is only related to Dogma by coinstenance.

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

>>>So, for you killing and expelling the Arabs from Spain was the only way for Western civilization to acquire algebra knowledge? They would not give it to us otherwise? We would have never discovered it? Well maybe not, as sciences were regarded as pagan dark arts. Galileo, thou shalt be avenged...<<<

I am not sure if it would have ever been discovered. Although the Moors of that land were very civilized and very educated much more then the general European populas so who knows.

Also you do know that some of the Best food items in the world were invented by Monks, or religous Brothers? Caphachino, Exresso, Champagne, Modern Chocolate, Sour dough bread, most spirits, etc, etc. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

As for St. Patrick I don't think the capital was in Rome at that time but I am probually wrong on that. But the Irish influx had allot of positive pratices embraced by the Church.

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

Leandra--I agree with you about religion, but I'm not convinced that if there is a God, God has to be a part of the created religion. God could easily be like Brahma, who created the world than had nothing further to do with it.

Jango--I think we may agree in general, but are not quite matching up on some of the specifics.

>>The existance of a god denies all laws of physics . . .

Not necessarily. It could be that God follows the same laws of physics that we all do, except that, as the Physicist of physicists, knows how to do things a helluva lot better.

It really all comes down to what someone's definition of God is. If we go with the traditional (and not necessarily scriptural) Christian definition that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, than you've just described a God that, by definition, IS the UNIVERSE. That doesn't necessarily describe a personal God, however. And as the universe is forced to follow the laws of physics, or indeed is the creator of those laws, then so would be God.

If you start defining God as a white-bearded magician without the wand or pointy cap, you start getting into people's fantasies about what they THINK God may be like. Slap in a few Biblical emotions into this Critter, like love, jealousy, and vengeance, and you have a nebulous mess no one can agree upon.

>> . . . but from my experience, he's been assigned all-too human attributes. 

That's one of the major keys, isn't it? "He's been assigned . . ." If we take the passive construction and make it active, we have to fill in who did the assigning, and we find it was humans who assigned those attributes. Maybe they got lucky and got some right, or maybe the got it all wrong. Just like we have to separate the concept of religion from the concept of God, we also need to pull the humans away from it.

If you want to say humans are turds toward one another, you'll find no disagreement from me. Open the newspaper any day of the week and you'll find proof. But why blame God (if God exists) on the acts of humans?

Look at it this way. If you don't believe in God, who's then responsible for the way people behave? Why, the people themselves. God, therefore, may not be a factor in that equation, even if that God exists.

>>But when there's overwhelming evidence that the need for a god has and always will be a part of the human condition . . .

Ah, you've nailed on a fundamental concept here. That of "need." Need according to whom? According to people. I need new tires on my car. Do I need God?

What is this need for God that people have? It varies per person. Some need God to eliminate their fear of death. Some need to excuse their own bad deeds that they lack the courage to accept responsibility for. Some need an invisible friend. Some need a scapegoat. Some need justification for acting like ****s. With all these needs comes all kinds of strangeness . . . which may or may not have any basis of reality, if indeed God is a reality.

If I ever get my book published (working through the second draft) you may be interested in reading it.

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

>>Faith is a gift that one needs to accept the exsitence of God . . .

I'll agree with that, but with some reservations. While I agree that faith is necessary to accept the existence of God based on no proof, it's also necessary to deny the existence of God with no proof. That it's a gift may be correct, but that assumes, then a giver. I, for one, do not have that gift. Can I then assume the giver has denied me? Couldn't it also be something innate, that is, something some (most) people are born with and some without? Could it be something that is earned?

If it's a gift, one can only assume the giver has reasons for withholding it from some.

About your second point, I think we may have to agree to disagree. When criminals use the excuse of religion to fly planes into buildings, and people react by taking action against other members of that religion, and leaders of religious groups, in reaction, say that the planes were an act of God against Americans for allowing homosexuals, feminism, and abortion (that would be our buddies Jerry and Pat, if you recall), those are not acts of unity. There are now more religions on the planet than ever before, rather than fewer, and I can only see the number increasing rather than decreasing.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying those are some of the reasons I happen to disagree.

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

*Also you do know that some of the Best food items in the world were invented by Monks, or religous Brothers? Caphachino, Exresso, Champagne, Modern Chocolate, Sour dough bread, most spirits, etc, etc. *

This only proves that the friars were taking good care of their bellies...

Guest · Oct 16, 2003

<blockquote><hr>

This only proves that the friars were taking good care of their bellies...

<hr></blockquote>
*sigh* Do you ever lighten up? Or is my humor just to dry?

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

>>>I'll agree with that, but with some reservations. While I agree that faith is necessary to accept the existence of God based on no proof, it's also necessary to deny the existence of God with no proof. That it's a gift may be correct, but that assumes, then a giver. I, for one, do not have that gift. Can I then assume the giver has denied me? Couldn't it also be something innate, that is, something some (most) people are born with and some without? Could it be something that is earned?

If it's a gift, one can only assume the giver has reasons for withholding it from some.
No it is something we can all have. It is givin willingly as well. But you need to find it, I just think you are looking in the wrong places. Or you could have found it and did not think it was what you thought, it was like you labeled it to look like Apple but it is really a Orange. Someone can guide you to find Faith but you need to find it yourself. I think also someone who is so Worldly like you can find it very hard, you have seen so much bad in some areas that are suppose to be "good" and good in areas that were suppose to be "Bad". But it will make it a much stronger Faith and more true Belief.

>>>About your second point, I think we may have to agree to disagree. When criminals use the excuse of religion to fly planes into buildings, and people react by taking action against other members of that religion, and leaders of religious groups, in reaction, say that the planes were an act of God against Americans for allowing homosexuals, feminism, and abortion (that would be our buddies Jerry and Pat, if you recall), those are not acts of unity. There are now more religions on the planet than ever before, rather than fewer, and I can only see the number increasing rather than decreasing.
Ok I see your point and agree. But I also see mine more clearer. I think it is a glass half full/ half empty thing. I also tend to see allot of good that comes out of bad situations, just my perception.

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

You love the Catholic Church, more power to you.
You bring absurd arguments into discussion, which make me laugh, too bad it's not visible.
The way you are trying to turn things so they look good for the Catholics is unbelievable, really.
Make sure you call me to witness your next try - like Galileo's trial was just and beneficial for science or the Spanish Inquisition was great for population control.

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

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Make sure you call me to witness your next try - like Galileo's trial was just and beneficial for science or the Spanish Inquisition was great for population control.

<hr></blockquote>
Not sure if I have ever said something like that, or ever will. But it is not my approach to Religion it is my whole view point of Life, I have always seen the better of any situation. Even very really horrible ones as well, but it is my general outlook of life. When I used to cook, and I would break a Holandaise sauce just before Brunch. I would just stop and savor the challange of starting a new batch, or would enjoying useing my art to fix it in a rush.

Also I often try to think of what would have happened if bad things never happened. What would happen if the Spanish Inquistition never happened? WWII?Or if crazed Zealots never flew Planes into the Twin Towers, Pentegon, or PA? Yes these things were horrible, but they helped mold humanity in differant way. Weather it was for the better or worse we will never know nor should we dwell on it, just take what is learned and move on to try for better future.

Mystery Meat · Oct 17, 2003

<blockquote><hr>

Also I often try to think of what would have happened if bad things never happened. What would happen if the Spanish Inquistition never happened?

<hr></blockquote>

OMG...

Genocide for a better moral future...

Thanks for that horrifying insight into the mindest of Catholicism.

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

I agree with you that god does not have to be part of a created religion. I have long believed that if there is a god, he/she set the world in motion, knows exactly where it is going to end, and doesn't give a rip from there on.

The comment about the existence of god denying all laws of physics is flawed on its face as it assumes that we know all laws of physics, which we most decidedly do not. We know a lot it's true, but it's overweaning arrogance to assume we know it all. I seem to remember somewhere back in the late 1800s there was a move on to close the US patent office because everything that could possibly be invented had already been invented. That assumption was no more accurate than this one.

Over the years I've discovered that god is whatever believers need it to be at the time. The Christian god can be a god of condemnation, hellfire, brimstone, and eternal torment, or it can be a god of peace and love. Depends on what people need or what leaders think they need to keep people in line.

Remember, human characteristics assigned to god are done so by people because their minds cannot encompass the notion of infinity in a person any more than in a universe. Basically we assign human motives and characteristics so we can understand.

I certainly agree with you on the fact that human beings are responsible for their own actions. I've found it vaguely amusing over the years to hear people assign to god results that they brought upon themselves and in the next breath talk about free will.

I'm sure most of you have heard the joke about the guy on the roof of his house during a flood. A rescue boat comes up but he refuses to go saying god will save him. A second boat comes and he refuses to go saying god will save him. Finally a helicopter arrives and again he refuses to go saying god will save him. Eventually he dies in the flood.

When he gets to heaven, he's hurt and confused. He askes god why he allowed him to die when he'd always been faithful, always been a good christian, and always believed. God replied: "What are you talking about? I sent you two boats and a helicopter. What more did you want?"

BTW Cyne. If you need a good book editor, feel free to send your draft. I'll be happy to read it for you. I'm above average in editing skills.

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

I whole heartedly agree with leandra's assesment of how religion developed. My question is this: In this day and age, we have answered many of the questions that lead to the rise of religion (why earthquakes happen, drought, etc), so why do people still adhere to these old, and to many, outdated beliefs? People have already given many good reasons for that, so I wont repeat them. I will instead address the issue of "cant prove god exists and cant prove that god doesnt exist". In my opinion, even the most religious person cant prove that god exists apart from their faith in said god. On the flipside, science has proven that the premises on which faith is based are false, and thus the religious conclusion must be false.

There are some that say science is its own form of religion, in that its a man made construction, and is thus no better than faith. However, I disagree with this, because if there were no humans, the planets would still revolve around the sun according to laws which are in place whether or not they are labelled. If there were no humans though, would god still exist? If there is no one to have faith, can the object of that faith exist?

I guess I am rambling, and if I am not making a coherent point, I apologize.

In the end, I think that the only thing that is left unexplained by science is whether or not there is a soul and a life after death. This is why I think modern people have faith in a god or whatever, to help explain these unknowns. In the future, who knows, maybe there will be concrete empirical evidence that proves or disproves the existence of a soul. If this ever happens, I expect to see a large shift in the views of people concerning "God". Personally, I do believe in a soul, but I dont believe in a god. I have reached this conclusion through my own illogical thinking, but have faith in it despite the fact that I know that there is no way of knowing until death comes a knocking. So where does that leave us? I think that if a person has faith in anything, then good for them. However, they should be willing to change their ideas once there is empirical evidence to the contrary.

The belief in a god is kinda like a belief in the tooth fairy...you believe in it, because you were taught all about it. But like god, you cant prove the tooth fairy doesnt exist. So how do we know the tooth fairy doesnt exist? Because we know that we made up that story to help children go through the trouble of losing their baby teeth. We made up a "god" to help explain those pesky earthquakes and volcanoes, but now as "adults" we know better...unless we refuse to be logical which seems to be the case in todays religious society. I cant fault people for being this way, because I am illogical in my belief in a soul. I think that if people just accepted that they are being illogical in their beliefs, then it would solve alot of the problems of arrogant religious leaders and their flocks of sheep trying to make everyone else follow their version of craziness.

Ok...that was VERY poorly written, and I can only say its 7am...let me try to sum up.
If you think science is real, then you have to realize that the belief in a god is illogical. I am fine with people being illogical as long as they recognize this fact and are willing to let others be logical/illogical in their own way. Its when illogical people think they are being logical that problems can and will arise. Damn that was weak...oh well.../php-bin/shared/images/icons/biggrin.gif.

Mystery Meat · Oct 17, 2003

<blockquote><hr>

If you think science is real, then you have to realize that the belief in a god is illogical.

<hr></blockquote>

Nah, not really..it is human nature to explain the inexplicable with respect to the supernatural and label it divine or malignant. That is obvious considering that all religions have for instance a moral code and creation mythology, typically much different than others religions.

I suppose as long as certain things remain a mystery people will always revert back to the supernatural and mysticism. Even in modern times, in the early days of quantum theory, this behavior resurfaced but died out when other pieces of the puzzle came to be known.

In my opinion science is the blind search for God and it is unscientific to assume he ( or she /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif ) does or does not exist because there will always remain the inexplicable.

Ampmonster · Oct 17, 2003

science is humans defining/explaning god's work
/php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

Mystery Meat · Oct 17, 2003

Yes, and regrettably, it is often summarily opposed by those with faith.

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

You know, that's a very interesting slant on this whole subject. However, if that is true, then why are most religious people so terribly anti-science? Or do they just not view things the way you stated and choose rather to view them as an us vs them conflict?

At any rate, your comment is an excellent and interesting way of viewing the whole process and would explain why you have always had believers who were also scientists.

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

<blockquote><hr>

science is humans defining/explaning god's work

<hr></blockquote>
Religion is humans defying logic and science only to simplify that which is much more complex!

C'mon, bury your head as deep as you want to, the evidence will still be there.

Budner · Oct 17, 2003

Good news for Nietzsche: God is NOT dead.

God never existed in the first place.

Ampmonster · Oct 17, 2003

"C'mon, bury your head as deep as you want to, the evidence will still be there. "

evidence...another human term. you don't think there is any mystery to life?

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

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It could be that God follows the same laws of physics that we all do, except that, as the Physicist of physicists, knows how to do things a helluva lot better.

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I think the laws of physics are referred to as laws because there's no negotiation or consideration of/on any type of idiosyncracies. They are defined and definite.

<blockquote><hr>

It really all comes down to what someone's definition of God is.<blockquote><hr>

Our definition is entirely biased, according to what we've accepted as being our own truth. I agree with your assesment, but can't with your defining 'god' as being the universe. The universe must follow certain rules, of which we're not certain, but you have to admit the preponderance of evidence supports scientific data versus any type of God, in any form.

<blockquote><hr>

If we take the passive construction and make it active, we have to fill in who did the assigning, and we find it was humans who assigned those attributes. Maybe they got lucky and got some right, or maybe the got it all wrong.

<hr></blockquote>

Considering it was humans that assigned those attributes, I'd consider it safe to say that they're completely, entirely and undeniably fallible, and with regards to that, I think we could safely consider all of them balderdash, gobbledygook and fabricated.
<blockquote><hr>

If you want to say humans are turds toward one another, you'll find no disagreement from me.

<hr></blockquote>
Yet you don't seem to understand that a major reason we're 'turds' to one another is the belief in a 'god'. I mean, if we're to evolve into a species that can co-exist peacefully with eachother and with our planet, this whole notion of a 'god' has to be dismissed IMO.

<blockquote><hr>

Ah, you've nailed on a fundamental concept here. That of "need." Need according to whom? According to people. I need new tires on my car. Do I need God?

<hr></blockquote>
You seemingly want to define 'need' as in what you 'need' to survive in the here and now. New tires? Sure, you might need them, but it has nothing to do with the FUNDAMENTAL (using your word here) need to have a purpose for your existance, or an answer for what will become of you after you're gone.

Is it so hard for people to think that after they die, they're simply worm food? Maybe it's disturbing, but on the same line, if we could think of another type of philosophical reasoning, imaybe t'd be okay?
We're only a speck and stuff, a moment in time, but hopefully we can enjoy our visit here without living our lives in ignorant bliss of something that awaits us in the 'hereafter' because of our own cognisant awareness of our impending death.

I believe fervently that the belief in god only serves to limit ourselves and our ability to associate without subjectivity with our fellow man.

The belief in god = evil. IMO.

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

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evidence...another human term. you don't think there is any mystery to life?

<hr></blockquote>
I think there's so much mystery to life that I can't contribute it to such a simplistic idea as a creator, which would be the easy answer, IMO.

Ampmonster · Oct 17, 2003

what about emotion?...nothing scientific about that

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

Thanks for the simplistic small mindset of a Troll/php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

imported_snoopy · Oct 17, 2003

Emotion is caused by chemical reactions in the brain...isn't the study of that somewhat scientific?

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

<blockquote><hr>

simplistic idea as a creator

<hr></blockquote>
I think the idea of a creator is allot more complex then you you think.

Ampmonster · Oct 17, 2003

why dont all animals have them ?(im just asking questions here)

Mystery Meat · Oct 17, 2003

imported_snoopy · Oct 17, 2003

I think they do to varying degrees. An alpha male becomes enraged when another infringes on his territory...animals cower in fear...they may or may not experience love (we can't even really define it ourselves so that is tough to say) but there is certainly maternal instinct etc. Our emotions are likely more developed...just as our thought processes and mental capacity are...but that is what puts us at the top of the chain.

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

I believe the gift part is meant as in a gift from God through your early formation, where all our abilities develop. Some propably has it stronger than others.

Guest · Oct 17, 2003

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They are defined and definite.

<hr></blockquote>

The laws of physics are never definete nor complete.

<blockquote><hr>

The universe must follow certain rules

<hr></blockquote>

We don't know this for sure, we just postulate from our observations of the universe we can percieve.

Religion Revisited?

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