enough is enough time to nerf moving shots ROUND 2

[CovenantX]

This is really far off topic. All of them are terrible ideas, except the addition of skills that would go towards the reduction of LMC.

Off topic... the first part of the post couldn't be more ON Topic?
Where are the flaws?

It's a shocker you agree with the "addition" of skills, as those skills are also found on most archer templates...
I've posted about balance before, I don't claim it to be "perfect" but most people seem to always favor whichever template they can play most effectively.

Which is most definitely the case in this thread...

 

[Zalan]

* keeping an eye on this thread *

 

[randy]

From what I've gathered here is it seems people have an issue with not being able to run away and avoid pvp. I for one like to actually pvp if you don't there are many facets to play in Ultima online. Running away and not fighting doesn't make this game balanced. Moving shot damage is needed for people that are scared to fight. I also don't play an Archer so...

 

[virem]

OP is 100% correct. When they did the weapon rebalancing they changed the base damage on the Composite bow (running shot used to do 17-18 damage at 1.25 seconds). Now it does 23-25 damage before hit spells.. at 1.25 seconds. When archers can completely shift the mage meta there is obviously something over-powered about them. There is nothing really wrong with the composite bow base damage, or speed, but there should be a damage reduction on the running shot special move.

 

[Merlin]

Keep Moving Shot as is.

 

[OREOGL]

OP is 100% correct. When they did the weapon rebalancing they changed the base damage on the Composite bow (running shot used to do 17-18 damage at 1.25 seconds). Now it does 23-25 damage before hit spells.. at 1.25 seconds. When archers can completely shift the mage meta there is obviously something over-powered about them. There is nothing really wrong with the composite bow base damage, or speed, but there should be a damage reduction on the running shot special move.

OP is 100% correct. When they did the weapon rebalancing they changed the base damage on the Composite bow (running shot used to do 17-18 damage at 1.25 seconds). Now it does 23-25 damage before hit spells.. at 1.25 seconds. When archers can completely shift the mage meta there is obviously something over-powered about them. There is nothing really wrong with the composite bow base damage, or speed, but there should be a damage reduction on the running shot special move.

The damage is around 22 as long as your 120 with 100 damage increase.

I tested the hit spells along with it and both went off maybe one out of every 8-10 hits, which doesnt include all the misses.

id like to know what templates people are running that they are getting smoked by running shot.

im guessing its more that theyre running away when low and getting dropped with a single running shot.

even if they were using just a weapon skill or mage weapon thats still a 50% chance to block.

so out of every 2.5 seconds you can get hit for ~30 damage. or out of 12.5 seconds your getting hit for 150 points, which is easily to heal through unless you get a bad run of RNG.

are people really running bad templates or just not healing?

There's more to this than running shot is hurting me please nerf it.

Throw some numbers at me or try to explain because it's just not making any sense.

 

[Lord Trollo]

moving-shot is slightly overpowered. it merits a small nerf, but don't go overboard like paithan's internet forum rage.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

moving-shot is slightly overpowered. it merits a small nerf, but don't go overboard like paithan's internet forum rage.

You have proven this with no backing what so ever. I like your approach.

 

[Lord Trollo]

You have proven this with no backing what so ever. I like your approach.

here is your backing. i simplified the formula for layman's understanding for you. you can clearly see below the base damage on moving shot its a too heavy by 3-5 points.

 

[Bombastic Fail]

Not that I care either way (mage or Archer), but remember in all these equations, you need to add in "lower defense" to the Archer's arsenal. This furthers their % chance to hit the mage. Let's not forget that.

Also, whoever suggested full armor reforging... Not only is that really, really irritating and expensive to do, but you want to drop your BASE resists for some extra DCI? Idk about all that... Then the complaints will be 40+ damage moving shots instead of 30+

 

[805connection]

Archers are fine if you are running parry. If you chose to not run party and pick up something more offensive. Like scribe or weapon skill then prepare to be treated like a glass cannon cause that is all you are. Also you can refine your suit so you have higher cold and poison since most archers like myself run those elemental bows. And also get ur spirituality to knight so you have 20 % reduction.


Good luck

 

[leet]

Not that I care either way (mage or Archer), but remember in all these equations, you need to add in "lower defense" to the Archer's arsenal. This furthers their % chance to hit the mage. Let's not forget that.

Also, whoever suggested full armor reforging... Not only is that really, really irritating and expensive to do, but you want to drop your BASE resists for some extra DCI? Idk about all that... Then the complaints will be 40+ damage moving shots instead of 30+

No then it would do the same it always does when you are cursed. And if someone happens to have the damage type of the resist you lowered (1 out of 4 chance) then thats just more RNG

And im not sure where everyone is getting these 22-25 numbers. I am probably one of the hardest hitting archers in the game and i hit 18's all day.
Can we stop exaggerating ? And can we stop talking like you get hitting with running shot + hit spell + max range velocity every single time because thats isnt the case by any means.

 

[OREOGL]

No then it would do the same it always does when you are cursed. And if someone happens to have the damage type of the resist you lowered (1 out of 4 chance) then thats just more RNG

And im not sure where everyone is getting these 22-25 numbers. I am probably one of the hardest hitting archers in the game and i hit 18's all day.
Can we stop exaggerating ? And can we stop talking like you get hitting with running shot + hit spell + max range velocity every single time because thats isnt the case by any means.

I tested the damage for a while last night.

The highest damage was 22, in threw them a bone for their argument. A lot of them were in the 18 range usually with 7-9 points of damage vs all 70s from either the velocity or hit lightning I have on the composite bow.

The biggest hit i did around 20 shots was 38 points of damage.

But this was an outlier due to goofing with the targets resists.

 

[leet]

I tested the damage for a while last night.

The highest damage was 22, in threw them a bone for their argument. A lot of them were in the 18 range usually with 7-9 points of damage vs all 70s from either the velocity or hit lightning I have on the composite bow.

The biggest hit i did around 20 shots was 38 points of damage.

But this was an outlier due to goofing with the targets resists.

Thank you, my point exactly.

 

[TimberWolf]

I tested the damage for a while last night.

The highest damage was 22, in threw them a bone for their argument. A lot of them were in the 18 range usually with 7-9 points of damage vs all 70s from either the velocity or hit lightning I have on the composite bow.

The biggest hit i did around 20 shots was 38 points of damage.

But this was an outlier due to goofing with the targets resists.

interesting...was your target cursed or corpse skinned? If so were you using an elemental weapon??
All this can change the effective damage....not to mention if you happen to be running a single low resist that your opponent happens to be targeting. I dont think a 18 damage moving shot is over powering..

Now if you are flying solo and have a couple archers chasing you with moving shot and a mage healing them and casting on you.....

 

[CovenantX]

I tested the damage for a while last night.

The highest damage was 22, in threw them a bone for their argument. A lot of them were in the 18 range usually with 7-9 points of damage vs all 70s from either the velocity or hit lightning I have on the composite bow.

The biggest hit i did around 20 shots was 38 points of damage.

The numbers were changed slightly, as last time I just calculated the damage and rounded it, below are in-game results.
This is assuming the archer has 150 Str, 120 tactics, Anatomy, 100% damage increase, +10% damage modifier & 100% elemental damage Composite Bow (when applicable)
Running shot averages min 19-21-24 max damage with no debuffs & target being 70s in all resistances (not a single shot out of about 40 hits were 18 or less)
Running shot averages min 26-29-32 max damage while Cursed. (if the composite bow is 100% elemental damage) (about 40 hits)
Running shot averages min 36-39-40 max damage while Cursed & Evil-Omen (100% elemental damage composite bow) (about 40 hits)

Each test was done with 0 hit-spells & a 100% cold damage composite bow (meaning the damage can only go up by adding hit velocity & lightening)

With the right setup Running Shot can hit harder than armor ignore on average with less mana cost and the ability to shoot while moving, it is overpowered.

on a side note: Running shot used to have a hit chance penalty applied to it, what happened to that?

 

[OREOGL]

interesting...was your target cursed or corpse skinned? If so were you using an elemental weapon??
All this can change the effective damage....not to mention if you happen to be running a single low resist that your opponent happens to be targeting. I dont think a 18 damage moving shot is over powering..

Now if you are flying solo and have a couple archers chasing you with moving shot and a mage healing them and casting on you.....

There are a lot of variables to pvp that I'm not sure you can account for trying to balance a base damage.

I did pull some armor pieces to drop a few resists down to say 50 and that resulted in the 38 damage outlier I mentioned. So that ruled out the need for corpseskin and elemental damage weapon.

If you have a couple people chasing you it skews the entire argument.

You can't balance something in a 2 vs 1 scenario otherwise you make something incredibly overpowered.

 

[OREOGL]

The numbers were changed slightly, as last time I just calculated the damage and rounded it, below are in-game results.
This is assuming the archer has 150 Str, 120 tactics, Anatomy, 100% damage increase, +10% damage modifier & 100% elemental damage Composite Bow (when applicable)
Running shot averages min 19-21-24 max damage with no debuffs & target being 70s in all resistances (not a single shot out of about 40 hits were 18 or less)
Running shot averages min 26-29-32 max damage while Cursed. (if the composite bow is 100% elemental damage) (about 40 hits)
Running shot averages min 36-39-40 max damage while Cursed & Evil-Omen (100% elemental damage composite bow) (about 40 hits)

Each test was done with 0 hit-spells & a 100% cold damage composite bow (meaning the damage can only go up by adding hit velocity & lightening)

With the right setup Running Shot can hit harder than armor ignore on average with less mana cost and the ability to shoot while moving, it is overpowered.

on a side note: Running shot used to have a hit chance penalty applied to it, what happened to that?

The balance is requiring the perfect conditions, template etc to meet the top tier of damage.

And this is only the average of when you do hit. Not accounting for the other persons template.

Most are going to have parry wrestle or a Mage weapon to make it a maximum hit of 50%.

So I can't really see this happening because you're including other factors such as curse etc that'd require another person attacking.

No one can fit enough skills to curse and evil omen effectively while achieving max damage from archery skills.



No clue about the hci penalty though.

 

[drcossack]

Archers are fine if you are running parry. If you chose to not run party and pick up something more offensive. Like scribe or weapon skill then prepare to be treated like a glass cannon cause that is all you are. Also you can refine your suit so you have higher cold and poison since most archers like myself run those elemental bows. And also get ur spirituality to knight so you have 20 % reduction.


Good luck

Yeah, because it's totally impossible to have both Scribe AND Wrestle/Parry on a mage...

 

[leet]

The numbers were changed slightly, as last time I just calculated the damage and rounded it, below are in-game results.
This is assuming the archer has 150 Str, 120 tactics, Anatomy, 100% damage increase, +10% damage modifier & 100% elemental damage Composite Bow (when applicable)
Running shot averages min 19-21-24 max damage with no debuffs & target being 70s in all resistances (not a single shot out of about 40 hits were 18 or less)
Running shot averages min 26-29-32 max damage while Cursed. (if the composite bow is 100% elemental damage) (about 40 hits)
Running shot averages min 36-39-40 max damage while Cursed & Evil-Omen (100% elemental damage composite bow) (about 40 hits)

Each test was done with 0 hit-spells & a 100% cold damage composite bow (meaning the damage can only go up by adding hit velocity & lightening)

With the right setup Running Shot can hit harder than armor ignore on average with less mana cost and the ability to shoot while moving, it is overpowered.

on a side note: Running shot used to have a hit chance penalty applied to it, what happened to that?

Ok so what you are saying is if an archer is 150 str / 120/120 / 100 DI and 10% modifier. It hits for 19-21-24

So were going to complain that if your cursed you get hit for more? Okay so then i cant start a thread complaining that if im cursed a mage can hit me for 60 dmg with a flamestrike.
How can you even add evil omen to this list? So you have to be omen'd, you have to get hit by the rng, hit before the omen wears off, and you have to take no other dmg before the archer hit.

"Well if im cursed/ and i get hit by a flamestrike/ and i got omen'd/ and the mage had me sashed up"

Because you get hit by more in certain situations does not mean anything.
It simple, A running shot will hit for 19-21-24 (which most people cant achieve even this because they dont run with 150/120/120/100)

If you dont like running shots, get parry. Or better yet, stop running like 92% of "pvpers" do.

 

[virem]

The balance is requiring the perfect conditions, template etc to meet the top tier of damage.

And this is only the average of when you do hit. Not accounting for the other persons template.

Most are going to have parry wrestle or a Mage weapon to make it a maximum hit of 50%.

So I can't really see this happening because you're including other factors such as curse etc that'd require another person attacking.

No one can fit enough skills to curse and evil omen effectively while achieving max damage from archery skills.



No clue about the hci penalty though.

The conditions described above aren't at all difficult to achieve, that's the problem. Any pure archer can get to max damage and max speed with average gear, then all you need is a mage cursing and you are at max damage. God forbid apple is on cooldown, that's 30 seconds of 30 damage running shots.. with a 50% chance of them being 40+ all while MOVING at every 1.25 seconds...

Before weapon rebalancing almost no one played a parry mage.. and now? everyone. All because archery is too strong in its current state.

 

[OREOGL]

The conditions described above aren't at all difficult to achieve, that's the problem. Any pure archer can get to max damage and max speed with average gear, then all you need is a mage cursing and you are at max damage. God forbid apple is on cooldown, that's 30 seconds of 30 damage running shots.. with a 50% chance of them being 40+ all while MOVING at every 1.25 seconds...

Before weapon rebalancing almost no one played a parry mage.. and now? everyone. All because archery is too strong in its current state.

This is a blanket statement which requires several players to match the conditions.

So yes it is difficult for a single player get to these conditions.

You cannot "balance" something that requires multiple players to perform against one person.

Let alone the damage tested did not exceed 40 and certainly not consecutively along with spamming evil omen to get.

You're cherry picking numbers to try and fit the argument which doesn't account for every factor described.

I'm not sure how anyone could ask to nerf something with a straight face that requires several people to get max damage, requires RNG to work and both hit spells to go off repeatedly along with all the skills and equipment and stats while finding some goofy mage that isn't using party and a weapon skill/wrestling.


Sorry just not buying into it and I play a Mage most of the time.

 

[cobb]

The conditions described above aren't at all difficult to achieve, that's the problem. Any pure archer can get to max damage and max speed with average gear, then all you need is a mage cursing and you are at max damage. God forbid apple is on cooldown, that's 30 seconds of 30 damage running shots.. with a 50% chance of them being 40+ all while MOVING at every 1.25 seconds...

Before weapon rebalancing almost no one played a parry mage.. and now? everyone. All because archery is too strong in its current state.

Agreed. Archery is a bit ridiculous at the moment

 

[OREOGL]

Agreed. Archery is a bit ridiculous at the moment

You have to excuse my amusement at this since you derived this using no logic at all.

 

[cobb]

Can we stop exaggerating ? And can we stop talking like you get hitting with running shot + hit spell + max range velocity every single time because thats isnt the case by any means.

Can we stop pretending that hit spell + velocity never proc? Can we stop pretending you don't have HLD on your weapon? Can we stop pretending there is not gonna be a disarm/splinter before the moving shot spam happens?

 

[cobb]

You have to excuse my amusement at this since you derived this using no logic at all.

I believe I was agreeing with Virem who presented his argument. Do you want me to repeat the same thing?

 

[virem]

I'm not cherry picking anything. This is mostly a group fighting game. That's what happens in a group fight, the target gets cursed. 25-30 damage to a cursed target +10 for lighting + 10 for velocity.

 

[virem]

Even if hit spells didn't exist on bows, running shot still does too much damage... It's a product of years and years of suits getting better and better. Max Archer damage and speed has become more common place, where as Mage damage is still relatively the same.

 

[randy]

If they fix running shot they should give mage a spell where they don't have to stop to cast. Can't reward players who are running away running shot is big on finishing off or getting someone low enough to where they actually need to stop and heal. I don't see why rewarding people for running will ever be ok nobody will die if they just run if they fix moving shot and don't give mages something to cast on the run.

 

[virem]

I'm pretty sure a 20 (rather than 25-30) damage running shots before hit spells can still kill people running away.... Killing low life targets isn't really the problem. It's killing people from full to nothing in six seconds with little to no counter play.

 

[Lord Frodo]

OMG this BS has gotten so far out of hand with all the what ifs just so one person can get a template nerfed that he can't defend against. I play strictly old school fighters so I want all hybrids and any add ons nerfed so I do not need to change my template.

 

[virem]

OMG this BS has gotten so far out of hand with all the what ifs just so one person can get a template nerfed that he can't defend against. I play strictly old school fighters so I want all hybrids and any add ons nerfed so I do not need to change my template.

Really well thought out post man, keep up the good work.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Really well thought out post man, keep up the good work.

Great job with your reply considering this is exactly what the OP is asking for and you all are so funny with your support.

 

[leet]

Can we stop pretending that hit spell + velocity never proc? Can we stop pretending you don't have HLD on your weapon? Can we stop pretending there is not gonna be a disarm/splinter before the moving shot spam happens?

lmfao. now we are adding the fact that you are disarmed and splintered? i got a great idea for you cobb its really good man. get parry.

 

[leet]

I'm pretty sure a 20 (rather than 25-30) damage running shots before hit spells can still kill people running away.... Killing low life targets isn't really the problem. It's killing people from full to nothing in six seconds with little to no counter play.

I have never chased a parry mage from full to 0 with running shots. The HPR alone counterplays more damage then i will get by RNG. Good attempt tho.

 

[cobb]

I have never chased a parry mage from full to 0 with running shots. The HPR alone counterplays more damage then i will get by RNG. Good attempt tho.

archer bias confirmed

 

[virem]

umm yah.. Maybe so, but you don't have 211 stamina right?

And the real point is archery shouldn't force mages to play with parry, and that's what happened.

 

[leet]

umm yah.. Maybe so, but you don't have 211 stamina right?

And the real point is archery shouldn't force mages to play with parry, and that's what happened.

Magery doesnt force archers to play with resist?

 

[leet]

archer bias confirmed

I am an archer, doesnt change the fact that you have no idea what your talking about

 

[cobb]

Are people seriously wanting there to be only 2 viable templates in pvp? Archers and parry mages?

 

[virem]

Not really, no. And even if it did that's 100 less skill points than anatomy + parry.

 

[virem]

Are people seriously wanting there to be only 2 viable templates in pvp? Archers and parry mages?

Exactly.

 

[leet]

Not really, no.... and even if it did that's 100 less skill points than anatomy + parry.

Yes, yes it does. I cant running shot if i get mana vamped right?
100 less skill points on a completely different template. Magery/eval gives you healing and offence
archery/tactics/anatomy/healing > healing and offence

Literally apples and oranges here

 

[virem]

Yah.. You are right.. If a Mage somehow casts 3 mana vamps in a row you will be out of mana and won't be able to running shot until it comes back in a few seconds.

 

[leet]

Yah.. You are right.. If a Mage somehow casts 3 mana vamps in a row you will be out of mana and won't be able to running shot until it comes back in a few seconds.

I love your over exaggeration. Like when you said 10 damage velocity hits. Which dont exist.
We keep forgetting that a running shot takes mana even if it misses right? The only special in the game that does this.
Not including some of the failed mastery specials we wont go there.

 

[randy]

Running shot does miss quite a bit I've also never gotten killed by just running shots before that would be pretty unlucky imo.

 

[virem]

It's not an exaggeration at all.... Mana vamp takes like 50-60 mana vs a zero resist target... So it's going to take 3 to put you at 0 mana. It's hard enough casting 1 7th level spell, let alone 3. Then if you are at 0 mana and gain 2 mana per second seems like you will be able to running shot again in a few seconds to me..

 

[virem]

Running shot does miss quite a bit I've also never gotten killed by just running shots before that would be pretty unlucky imo.

Your Mage has parry... And healing.

 

[randy]

Your Mage has parry... And healing.

Why doesn't yours?

 

[virem]

because it's unskilled and boring.