hardly
-
Hail Guest! We're looking for Community Content Contribuitors to Stratics. If you would like to write articles, fan fiction, do guild or shard event recaps, it's simple. Find out how in this thread: Community Contributions
-
Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
-
Hail Guest!, Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
-
Hail Guest! Please read the new announcement concerning the upcoming addition to Stratics. You can find the announcement Here!
enough is enough time to nerf moving shots ROUND 2
- Thread starter XavierFromLs
- Start date
- Watchers 4
Let me help you out.
You cannot achieve that damage using Running shot all by itself without someone else debuffing
This has nothing to do with parry at this point.
How is this not the takeaway from Virem's video? He has no parry; his only "defense" is a weapon skill. He is hit 50% of the time, all while lower defense is procced. Both bows with double hit spells, not one double hit spell proc in the 5 out of 10 attempts that hit. 2 out of 5 hits with no hit spells (with 46%/46% on the bows). Is a 50% hit rate, and a 100% mana consumption rate, really too much? Not to mention, if those mages weren't there, there wouldn't have been a single hit over 25 (including hit spells).
I don't know if you're as familiar with Ultima Online mechanics as you think you are. If a weapons speed goes down, the damage goes up. That is how every weapon in this game functions.
1.5s is still fast but it's better balanced. (if archers were slower than 1.5s they'd would literally only be good in groups)
The point of his video, wasn't that it was 4vs1. It was to show the damage per shot of moving shot.
I'm saying, it doesn't help your argument by saying neither of you were 211 stamina. @211 stamina one archer could yield the same results (if you watch the video, Archer B only had two shots fired) Where as Archer A would have made up those two shots by having the extra .25 attacks within the same time frame.
Thanks for the clarification on that... It is foolish to balance pvp around ganking scenarios, but it's also possible to make an archer that could curse & do roughly the same things that happened in that video, literally all the damage taking while on the ground level, was from the archers. (that is possible with one person).
Ok, this is situational, you're assuming the player that's running is able to run in a straight line indefinitely, also, you should only lose tiles when Lightening goes off because velocity does NOT rubber-band you.
Lets assume you're 3 tiles away from the person you're chasing as they're running away.
(This is not cursed)
You shoot, lightening procs so you have 18-23 damage + 7-9 (25-30) you lose a tile.
you shoot, lightening procs = another 25-30 damage, you lose a tile, you're now 5 tiles away from your target and you've done 50-60 damage (not counting velocity (keep in mind, if lightening doesn't proc, you shouldn't rubber-band thus tile loss is from failing to chase)
You need to shoot 5 times with lightening procs to be far enough behind to not be in range with a composite bow (this is also assuming 2/3 hits you'd lose two tiles instead of one just for argument sake. 5 shots (if they all hit) would be 90min-185max hp worth of damage (in a 6.25s window) with just lightening & the bow hitting Each time you hit without lightening going off, you shouldn't lose a tile, it will happen occasionally though, on both sides people get stuck on trees, houses, other players, npcs etc etc.
Lower Defense didn't proc until the fourth shot hit.
Doesn't matter he based damage off being cursed from the get go.
Yes, it is. And people in the same guild as those in the video have run curse archers. I would argue this situation could not have happened 1v1, as it would have required the curse archer to 1. curse the weapon mage, 2. re-curse them after they apple, hit them ~6 consecutive times, with some generous hit spell procs, without the target having healing/anatomy, confidence, or stopping to mage heal, all the while staying with them on screen. This is infinitely more difficult to pull off (as a result of the rubberbanding mechanics) than you've described.
Yes, I am well aware of this. Velocity is not a hit spell, so therefore it does not rubberband you.
The art of staying with someone on an archer is not something that can be described as simply as this. People outrun archers (straight line, or not) many, many times a day. Not to mention the misrepresentation of our client side position to the fleeing player's server side position, making it feel as if we're much closer than we actually are, yet not swinging as we aren't even within 10 tiles. In most chases (regardless of the numbers of the fight), you are fortunate to stay ~8 tiles back from the target, and you can consider yourself out of range if hit lightning procs once.
You're right, he was definitely Cursed before he took any damage, but the damage with curse is very possible with a single player.
20 (human) magery + 80 Eval = ~100s curse. (using scrolls, vs 120 resist)
The fact of the matter is it could happen, if the archer that was in range for the majority of the shots had 211 stamina instead of 180-209, the damage done could absolutely be done by one person.
He didn't apple the curse, there was no reason to curse again (recurse = moot point in this case), even if his apple wasn't on cooldown, recursing doesn't change the fact that archery is overpowered.
All the damage done was from the archers (this was the entire point of his video), until he was no longer on the ground level.
Even the supernova damage was from an archer.
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about the video at all. In your hypothetical of the curse archer versus other character, here's the sequence of events: 1. curse archer curses target (without being interrupted), 2. target apples, 3. curse archer recurses target (without being interrupted), 4. curse archer is ready to start doing specials. Are you telling me there isn't enough time between steps 2 through 4 for any reasonable template to either disrupt the second curse, or go offensive, stopping the slew of oncoming specials beginning at step 4?
I'm failing to see the actual core of your argument. Is moving shot too powerful? Or is moving shot while cursed too powerful? If it's the latter, is it curse that is too powerful in general?
Should archers who carry supernova potions and run EP not be allowed to use them? Literally anyone in VvV can carry novas as interrupts or damage, regardless of template. I don't see why an archer using a supernova is even relevant, as it is a damage utility that every single PvPer can have.
sure can, but how many archers you know rolling around with 80 eval instead of focus or resist.
this doesnt include the damage rate in the video from running shot was from two archers.
so even if one of them did 3 of the 5 shots thats a 102 points of damage, ~35 points of which he chugged through.
You're telling me 67 points on a dude with hld and only a weapon skill is over powered?
Id say thats pretty good.
I don't disagree with you at all here. It's tough sometimes, but how much harder do you think it is for a melee dexer to stay on someone?
Archers don't need to "out run" to keep within range to continually deal damage, they simply need to maintain a reasonable distance between you and the target.
It's pretty interesting that the only people in this thread that don't seem to be in favor of a slight nerf, are archers or parry mages, but then when you ask the parry mages why they even have parry in the first place, they say "It's because of archers". - I don't see anything wrong with that at all, do you?,,, /sarcasm
Honesty, I think the best solution would be to cap all ranged weapons at 1.5 speed.
Parry mages will continue to be parry mages because they would then become overpowered. so then, make parry require a combination of skills to be fully effective. Weapon skills (Swords, Fencing, Macing, & Throwing) If Wrestling+Parry = 120/240 parry chance = 20% down from 35%.
those two adjustments would tone down archery to be more in-line with melee though still very competitive.
and parry mages toned down to melee
end result = melee being viable again without being buffed.
That is situational, assuming the mage even apples before any damage is done, that simply won't happen every fight. and 30 seconds should be an ample amount of time to recurse regardless if it play out exactly as you describe. you failed to mention auto-attacks that could interrupt the mages "offense" or even just defensive interrupts on the archers curse. it only takes one interrupt to allow a curse to go off, sometimes it could take more/less, like I said, it's situational.
Archery is too powerful in general.
No, this really doesn't mean anything, I was simply saying that 100% of the damage done in the video (on the ground level), was done by the archers. suggesting that it is also possible for a single player to achieve the same results.
I don't know of any archers rolling with eval (that aren't full-archer-mages), but you could have resist and eval as an archer.
It includes the time that the archers (one or both) were in/out of range.
and an example of If it were just one archer being max stamina/ssi within range the same amount of time shots were being fired.
If you watch the video, the two archers were really close to each other, The archers were very likely out of range because of them stand-blocking each other.
That would not occur with a 1vs1 fight.
The heal potion healing has nothing to do with it, as the archer would also be using heal potions to heal damage made by the other player.
You're grasping here.
There was two archer hitting him while he was cursed and had hit lower defense debuffed.
There's no feasible argument against nerfing moving shot.
No archer is adding 80 eval and 40 points in something else.
I have parry and it is not 100% because of archers. It is for any dexer and pet that can hit me. Not sure why you think parry is useful only vs archers.
Also, if they are picking up enough skill to curse... they are giving something else up. So once again, it would not be feasible.
swing speed
mellee 1.25s
ranged 1.75s
no parry on mages
remove 15sdi cap on magery when paired with multiple magic skills (cap at 30sdi like pure mages)
no more spammable mortal
no 300combat skills required for the LMC bonus for specials or atleast add tactics to it
thatd be a nice start i would think
mellee 1.25s
ranged 1.75s
no parry on mages
remove 15sdi cap on magery when paired with multiple magic skills (cap at 30sdi like pure mages)
no more spammable mortal
no 300combat skills required for the LMC bonus for specials or atleast add tactics to it
thatd be a nice start i would think
he was not debuffed by lower Defense until the 4/5 shots hit him. so Lower Defense effect one out of the five shots that landed.
I'm not arguing to nerf "moving shot", I'm arguing to nerf archers in general down (slightly) to make melee more viable, nothing more, nothing less.
you can't effectively nerf Archery without doing something about Parry-Mages either, Melee would continue to be left behind.
When is the last time you saw a melee-only-dexer without hiding or 4/6 chiv?
Literally the first defensive thing people worry about Every Single Time when they make a pvp template is, their defense vs archers, is it not?
I think that is a very good idea. I'm not talking about changing the base weapon speed, but putting a straight cap of 1.5 second swing speed on ranged weapons
There are quite a few melee dexers running around I'd suggest leaving roof and actually go and pvp before spending hours on a PVP related topic in which you don't even participate in.
That's what 90% of archers are currently at..official numbers.
its UO in 2016. 211 stamina is not hard to reach with the gear available today
how about get rid of curse
sorry virem, it sounds like your complaining about ganks, not about archery. im sure 4 mages would drop my archer faster than 4 archers could drop your mage.
Leaving roof, you mean shadow guard? I haven't done that since I recorded that video btw, I said that, and you can believe me I will not do it again until cameos are either easier to get, or made Pof-able.
I pvp quite often, obviously I know quite a bit about it, otherwise people like:
wouldn't be posting things like this, If I'm not mistaken this is the same "Trevor" that plays with De Leet eD & Diddles. (I could be wrong about that though, apologies if I am) but this is almost exactly what I said earlier in this same thread. (my first post in this thread actually, go figure.)
Edited to add: 1.75s between ranged attacks would pretty much make a melee skill mandatory with archery, because 1.75s attacks are slow enough to where mages would very easily out heal damage done.
its hard to reach while having 100 damage increase on the suit and 2 hit spells on bow, which is what the post is about. and keep in mind that 210 stam suits only helps for the comp bow, it gives no advantage for regular bow or heavy xbow.
if we're talking about wanting template variet, ill stick to what i said before that changing what skills contribute to the 300skill point bonus, and possibly also what skill take away from the mage sdi bonus would be a much better way to provide more options.
like just adding chiv and necro to both these (count towards lmc bonus, and not take away from sdi bonus) would allow for more temp variety.
theres also refinements. if your having trouble with archers and cant spare the 100 skill points for parry (cause thats all you really need) maybe try a 70dci refined suit. like everything in UO theres tradeoffs.
to put it as simply as possible, a mage needs 120 parry to fight an archer just as much as an archer needs 120 resist to fight a mage. you dont have to have the skill, but it helps.
Pretty sure you need Anatomy as well. Unless you don't want a free hand to chug with.
but its impossible to add in that 80 eval without greatly increasing your mana cost, or dropping magic resist. both are sacrifices.
so maybe just removing bushido from the the 30sdi list would be improvement.
personally id only have magery, mysticism, and spellweaving bring down sdi to 15.
I disagree.
If you put an archer without resist, vs a mage without parry. RNG decides what the mage is able to do against the archer. mana vamp doesn't stop the archer from doing damage.
If the archer hits often enough, the mana vamp will not even happen, but mage would be forced to heal OR do damage (both is not possible).
the same difference with an archer+resist vs Mage+Parry.
Right, but you only need enough mana based on what the RNG is allowing you to do. by using curse, you reduce your RNG from 6-8 consecutive hits down to 5-6 consecutive hits. If you're able to attack at 1.25s as a "Curse-Archer", auto-attacks would hit for 26-32 (not including hit-spells) if you manage to make your suit max damage increase.
There's no saying if you'd have to spend mana on every shot or not, if your auto-attacks hit 3-9 points less than an Armor ignore, it's not worth it to use armor ignore unless you know it's going to make the difference. Auto-attacks hit for the same amount as moving shot so if your target isn't running you're not spending mana.
Again, the mana argument is very situational, it has little to do with this. Every template deals with mana conservation some more than others.
LoL,
Let's change the entire game and the mechanics to accommodate the Atlantic Gate Trash. In every other game I have played (WoW) (STWTOR) (LOL) (Albion) mages are glass cannons, I don't see why ultima online should be any different, unless you're building into a defensive template. Most of the healing mages in uo mainly fight in a group and are not going to be very successful killing other quality mages 1 vs 1... Just like a archer will not be successful at killing parry characters alone. But as a group the templates stack great together.
We have one group of pvpers that don't give a **** about 1 vs 1 and want to work as a unit going ham on everyone. Then you have the rest of ultima online with individual templates getting wrecked left and right..
The funny part of all this, is people have the nerve to cry wolf because their "leet pvp temp" last about 3 seconds in a gank.
When you get a pvp crew of 3 or 4 mages there is really no point in stacking inscribe is everyone is doing their job and syncing on the same target. But you cant sync if you are dead.
Let's change the entire game and the mechanics to accommodate the Atlantic Gate Trash. In every other game I have played (WoW) (STWTOR) (LOL) (Albion) mages are glass cannons, I don't see why ultima online should be any different, unless you're building into a defensive template. Most of the healing mages in uo mainly fight in a group and are not going to be very successful killing other quality mages 1 vs 1... Just like a archer will not be successful at killing parry characters alone. But as a group the templates stack great together.
We have one group of pvpers that don't give a **** about 1 vs 1 and want to work as a unit going ham on everyone. Then you have the rest of ultima online with individual templates getting wrecked left and right..
The funny part of all this, is people have the nerve to cry wolf because their "leet pvp temp" last about 3 seconds in a gank.
When you get a pvp crew of 3 or 4 mages there is really no point in stacking inscribe is everyone is doing their job and syncing on the same target. But you cant sync if you are dead.
No one said it was hard to reach, however that doesn't mean people are using it. Most fall in the 180 stam group AKA 1.5 sec swings with comp
You want an entire template nerfed because someone doesnt want to play with swords?
what kind of logic is that?
An entire template? No, just Ranged Weapons + Parry when combined with Wrestling or Anatomy.
Why don't people want to play with swords? is it because.... let me guess, Archery is better? Sure, that would be why.
Derp derp no kidding. I have yet to talk in the context of 1v1. This is not a game of 1v1. If you find a shard where people go around fighting like that, let me know sounds fun. Then I wouldn't need parry at all.
Merlin
The Enchanter
Moderator
Professional
Governor
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
There is nothing wrong with having a good spirited debate, but some posts are starting to tread on taking personal shots at one another. Let's keep it civil or we will have to lock it up.
Because they tie in together directly. Moving shot isn't horrible without the fact that mortal can be abused and I can only apple a curse every 30 seconds. Dig deep and follow me on this. I have faith in you leet
If I want to PVM I use a tamer or a mystic weaver,
If I want to Spawn I use a sampire or some AOE Style Char
If I want to PvP Dungeon I'm gonna use a necro a weaver or a mystic,
if I want to Pvp in yew Im gonna use a archer stealther or something with parry.
YOU CAN ALSO PLAY THE FOLLOWING PARRY TEMPS In Yew
Parry Healing mage
Parry Inscribe
Parry Alchy mage
Parry combat Mage
Bushiod Parry Dexxer,
Parry Tamer Mage
Parry 4/6 chiv mage
Parry Deathstriker, with 4/6
those are just casting temps and every temp has its respected strengths, So please UO has tons of different builds.
I'm not really sure why you cannot grasp this concept, no one is telling you there is only one pvp temp.
you don't balance skills in terms of ganking. Derp.
Wouldn't that be an argument to improve swords then?
It can be viewed that way, sure, but I'll explain why it's different...when everything gets buffed, it requires more balancing.
You have different aspects of the game that rely on the same things, if Ranged weapons are nerfed too hard, melee becomes even better than it should be (much like in PvM right now)
If Melee gets buffed up, and archery parry-mages remain the same, you have an even more imbalanced pvm aspect.
This is why it's important that there's no more "buffing" fix the problems at hand that would be less likely to break other aspects of the game. This is why I'm against "Buffing" melee up, as opposed to nerfing the things that are "overpowered".
Too many things can be changed but then affect something else that is seemingly unrelated.
Everything doesn't need rebalanced if the change isnt over compensated for.
Generally changes are over tweaked for something and then later nerfed to compensate for fixing it to begin with.
since the weapon rebalancing put all weapons in line with each other damage and speed wise the composite bow should just be made exactly the same as the cyclone.
13-17 base damage, 3.25 seconds swing speed.
If archers went harder damage running shots they can use a heavy crossbow.
13-17 base damage, 3.25 seconds swing speed.
If archers went harder damage running shots they can use a heavy crossbow.
Last edited:
i dont see the point. yeah, youd be swinging at 1.5 then (180stam 60ssi) but people would just complain then about these temps being impossible to kill.
as it is now i have 7hpr and 12 damage eater on my 216 stam suit.
if there was no benefit to 210+stam, i could make a 180s stam suit with max eaters and 18hpr. or incorporate about 60 more skills in a fully offensive suit to allow a curse archer template, necro archer, tamer archer etc.
point is, its not going to make archers "weaker" by raising the speed of the bow. yeah they might do slower damage in specific situations like moving shot, but that damage would also be higher. and people would just complain then about how hard a moving shot hits and how hard archers would be to kill with max eaters and hpr.
How can you make it the same as a cyclone when they have different special moves?
Sure can we give it a 3.25 second dismount as well?
Your logic on this thread is baffling
Well, it won't effect AI damage at all, and they are both the classes main running shot weapons.
Honestly, you are just terrified of any change to moving shot because you don't want to lose the most overpowered aspect of the only template you play.
Honestly, you are just terrified of any change to moving shot because you don't want to lose the most overpowered aspect of the only template you play.
Repeating yourself does not make your points any more valid.
The only thing that needs tweaked in archery is mortal.
I would like to echo the sentiment that being forced to play a parry mage really blows. I had to convert due to the overwhelming nature of moving shot ganks. Running parry fixed this particular issue, but it doesn't seem right that every other mage template is not viable in current meta.