B
Beer_Cayse
Guest
I'd settle for a "just before AOS" shard. Keep in mind, no custom housing and a lot of other stuff we take for granted now. But I think I'd do a pre-AOS shard. Yup.
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Define "Classic Shard"
- Thread starter sablestorm
- Start date
- Watchers 13
- Status
The people who want Tram to go away need to think a moment.
Tram going away would not mean all those carebear trammies would now be there to kill in a fel-ruleset. Those carebear trammies would have closed their accounts and dropped EA's bottom line and UO would be shutdown for lack of profit.
You so love the idea of no trammel-ruleset, then move to Siege Perilous.
Most of us are willing to pay a monthly fee to EA to have fun ourselves. We are not willing to pay a monthly fee to be fun for someone else.
EA clearly realized this and created Trammel because they wanted new players to come and stay, not come and leave.
A Tram free classic shard is already available.
What many of us want is a classic shard, where we can have fun, not be fun for PKers, that is pre-AoS. Which clearly should have been titled UO: Act of Stupidity, not UO:Age of Shadows. Though it certainly did cast a shadow over the game no amount of little bright candles of later neat additions can remove.
Tram going away would not mean all those carebear trammies would now be there to kill in a fel-ruleset. Those carebear trammies would have closed their accounts and dropped EA's bottom line and UO would be shutdown for lack of profit.
You so love the idea of no trammel-ruleset, then move to Siege Perilous.
Most of us are willing to pay a monthly fee to EA to have fun ourselves. We are not willing to pay a monthly fee to be fun for someone else.
EA clearly realized this and created Trammel because they wanted new players to come and stay, not come and leave.
A Tram free classic shard is already available.
What many of us want is a classic shard, where we can have fun, not be fun for PKers, that is pre-AoS. Which clearly should have been titled UO: Act of Stupidity, not UO:Age of Shadows. Though it certainly did cast a shadow over the game no amount of little bright candles of later neat additions can remove.
A classic shard absolutely must not include Trammel. I'm saying this, not from a PvP or PK standpoint, but as someone who enjoys playing crafters and wants a thriving economy. The Felucca ruleset has a built-in gold sink that keeps crafters busy supplying its players and really keeps the economy in balance. With the inclusion of Trammel, players eventually would be running around that facet with power/vanq weapons and invulnerable armor and would no longer have any need for GM-crafted items. I do understand why Trammel was added to the game and it may very well have helped sustain its success long term. At the same time, it was the first step in the UO economy's downfall and AoS item properties finished the job.
Is somebody deleting post here? I had post #103 and about 11:30 and now it is gone. What gives?
Apparently there was some forum trouble going on with posts as earlier stratics moved over to a different database. Some posts vanished to appear again. Not sure why yours didn't.
There was a warning from Petra earlier this weekend about the possibility of posts going missing. Stratics moved to a new host and there were several hours of glitches while that took place. Most posts were recovered and migrated, but I noticed a post or two that I made did not make it over.
V
Visolara16
Guest
To be honest I don't think it is a bad idea at all. You're really building the shard not so much for the current UO players (Majority of the people still playing are the people who needed Trammel to play UO) But your aiming at the thousands of free shard players who still love the classic version of UO and what EA is going to try to offer them is a piece of what they miss and the security that a free shard cannot offer. If it is a huge success you could possibly be looking at thousands of returning UO members. (Note I said a huge success it is all about convincing the people that still play UO on free shards that it would be better off to come back)
Now on the actual topic of the thread. I think everyone will have to make some sort of compromise, but the main thing is that it is before Trammel. Something I wouldn't hate would even be a hybrid version (No effects to the actual gameplay) but the faction points counter, house building tools, all the new decoration stuff (rugs ect.) If EA was to release a classic shard I think that when they continue to improve the shard it could be by releasing collective items such as listed above. Just an idea to keep the shard fresh.
Personaly I would love to go all the way back to when stat loss was around. The thing that made UO so special for me back then was the amount of risk that you dealt with everyday. It wasn't just attack, ress, attack, ress ect. Consequences of your actions were very important.
The worst blow to UO was the shift to an item-based play.
If they deleted the inflictions that came with AoS, and all the adjustments they have made since trying to get play balanced, we might once again have a game worth playing. No more uber-gear items causing EA to add more powerful monsters, then more powerful uber-gear, then even more powerful monsters.
Crafting was fun back in UO:Ren. People needed to replace gear lost when they got dirtnapped and couldn't get back to the body. There was no insurance so the players who play Crafters had a steady business.
Hunting was a lot more fun back in UO:Ren. I changed my melee characters to mages because the changes to combat back when AoS got dumped on us meant melee hunting became alternating macros 'attack monster' & 'heal method'. Have a heal fail & a second hit killed your character. The Arms Race between uber-gear kid & UO monster was started & hasn't yet ended I'm sure. With Imbueing allowing us all to make armor & weapons close to what can be gotten where uber-gear kids get theirs, the next step will be even more powerful monsters.
UO:Ren was a fun challenging PvM combat play. What we have now is a frustrating challenging play.
Dump the monsters like paragons, the ML dungeon monsters, and what probably runs around the SA dungeon, along with the better than Crafter-made armor & weapons from AoS & the arms race that resulted. That would remove a lot of the fun-killers from this game.
If they deleted the inflictions that came with AoS, and all the adjustments they have made since trying to get play balanced, we might once again have a game worth playing. No more uber-gear items causing EA to add more powerful monsters, then more powerful uber-gear, then even more powerful monsters.
Crafting was fun back in UO:Ren. People needed to replace gear lost when they got dirtnapped and couldn't get back to the body. There was no insurance so the players who play Crafters had a steady business.
Hunting was a lot more fun back in UO:Ren. I changed my melee characters to mages because the changes to combat back when AoS got dumped on us meant melee hunting became alternating macros 'attack monster' & 'heal method'. Have a heal fail & a second hit killed your character. The Arms Race between uber-gear kid & UO monster was started & hasn't yet ended I'm sure. With Imbueing allowing us all to make armor & weapons close to what can be gotten where uber-gear kids get theirs, the next step will be even more powerful monsters.
UO:Ren was a fun challenging PvM combat play. What we have now is a frustrating challenging play.
Dump the monsters like paragons, the ML dungeon monsters, and what probably runs around the SA dungeon, along with the better than Crafter-made armor & weapons from AoS & the arms race that resulted. That would remove a lot of the fun-killers from this game.
L
Lord Onslaught
Guest
What one player does as a mage does not counter act the inbalance in game mechanics that came about by the constant push away from skill based to item based.
As you're unaware of that distinction, and unaware that sarcasm and personal attacks dont address it, I expect you're also unaware that your opinion is not remotely credible.
Pre AOS item dependence.
If by stuff, you mean items, then defining a classic shard is changing from item-based play back to skill-based play.its really hard to define a Classic shard the game has soooo many stuff
Shoot, do it in a quick fashion, Drop resists & item bonus's on gear & monsters. Every item currently still exists as pixel crack but no longer has resists or bonus's that effect play.
The former uber-gear kids would have all the challenge they could fantasize about hunting ML & SA dungeon monsters with normal gear.
Just add npc popcorn vendors so the rest of us can kick back & munch while listening to them do the moaning & whining they have accused us of because monsters were getting so overpowered.
What opinion you think that is? My main opinion was the change to archery where they fixed it so you no longer had to remain absolutely still after shooting an arrow for it to have a chance of it hitting your target. Before that fix if you moved even a step after you shot an arrow you had to remain still, even after the arrow left the bow, and wait until either you think you missed or it hits to move.
It was very annoying to miss shooting in either PvP or PvM, accidentally moving even one step then suddenly you miss regardless. This feature was quite annoying to everyone who played an archer hence seeing a lot posting asking to have that one little bit changed so you didn't have to stay absolutely still just to have that arrow have a chance of hitting.
There will be many many who will agree that archery painfully needed that change.
K
Kain_LoD
Guest
I would love to see a Classic Shard. I've spoken to others, that have not even thought about OSI run uo in forever...and they immediately expressed extreme interest in the shard. You should have heard the excitement in their voices. While I understand a classic shard is not for everyone, there are many people who would enjoy it. Anyone that I talk to, compares every new game they play to when we used to play UO and nothing lives up to the standard set by UO... that should say something about how much we used to enjoy UO.
I would be completely content with Pre-AOS/Pub 16(without tram) ruleset. And remember, they can have the ruleset but still balance things out. The ruleset doesn't mean a certain skill has to go back to being "nerfed". The player run shard that other posters spoke of, does just that, with a few bells and whistles.
I would be completely content with Pre-AOS/Pub 16(without tram) ruleset. And remember, they can have the ruleset but still balance things out. The ruleset doesn't mean a certain skill has to go back to being "nerfed". The player run shard that other posters spoke of, does just that, with a few bells and whistles.
G
Gowron
Guest
That's not entirely true. They could add all kinds of new content and just keep it in line with the "classic shard" theme.
What if there was a "Doom" dungeon and gauntlet, but the arties didn't drop. Or, perhaps there's a chance of acquiring that super fast super accurate silver vanquishing sword?
Either way, there's all kinds of stuff that can be done with a "Classic Shard" as long as the rule sets and conditions were in keeping with the Classic conditions of game play.
I strongly disagree. UO did not need saving, FAR from it. Subscriptions were rapidly increasing throughout t2a and before. The game was very healthy prior to Tram, and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that this would have changed without Tram. In fact, subscriptions started to fall for the first time AFTER Trammel's introduction.
Source: http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
...
Subscriptions were rapidly increasing throughout t2a and before
And now the rest of the story...
The above is true but WOEFULLY incomplete.
Yes subs were rising, UNTIL the release of EQ at which point the graph shows a VERY distinct flattening out while EQ's subs shoot right past and eclipse UO in very short order. Why? What did EQ have that UO did not at the time? What was one of their biggest selling points for it? CHOICE. The ability to play WITHOUT being PKed all the time. Between 1999 and 2000, UO's line flattens out while EQ jumps upwards. After 2000, when UO:R is announced and released, the expansion of UO continues. Of course several lackluster "expansions" (one GOOD facet with a relatively poorly done at the time client in one, then a complete NON-expansion afterwards before AOS) didn't do quite as well and newer MMOGs also left UO behind (especially the 8000lb gorilla).
UO's rise at the time was due to a LACK of competition, then the addition of Trammel then Factions followed by (mostly) a small bump occasionally after each expasion (not LBR though, the line stayed flat then).
Again, if non-con PvP were such a HUGE draw, why has there not been a single fantasy-based MMOG that has gone 100% non-con PvP in the current market that has succeeded?
After all of the hype, the newer attempts fell flat each time.
People simply want a choice.
Subscriptions were rapidly increasing throughout t2a and before
And now the rest of the story...
The above is true but WOEFULLY incomplete.
Yes subs were rising, UNTIL the release of EQ at which point the graph shows a VERY distinct flattening out while EQ's subs shoot right past and eclipse UO in very short order. Why? What did EQ have that UO did not at the time? What was one of their biggest selling points for it? CHOICE. The ability to play WITHOUT being PKed all the time. Between 1999 and 2000, UO's line flattens out while EQ jumps upwards. After 2000, when UO:R is announced and released, the expansion of UO continues. Of course several lackluster "expansions" (one GOOD facet with a relatively poorly done at the time client in one, then a complete NON-expansion afterwards before AOS) didn't do quite as well and newer MMOGs also left UO behind (especially the 8000lb gorilla).
UO's rise at the time was due to a LACK of competition, then the addition of Trammel then Factions followed by (mostly) a small bump occasionally after each expasion (not LBR though, the line stayed flat then).
Again, if non-con PvP were such a HUGE draw, why has there not been a single fantasy-based MMOG that has gone 100% non-con PvP in the current market that has succeeded?
After all of the hype, the newer attempts fell flat each time.
People simply want a choice.
I think UO's initial rise was because of people saying "OMFG this game is so freaking unbelievably awesome that I have got to play it." I know thats what I said when I first saw my friends brother playing it in '97.
There is one.... can anyone think of it? Hmmm...
No?
I will give you a hint. It's the longest continuously running MMORPG in history...
Still no?
Another hint: it's initials are U and O...
Yup. Thats right. For the first 3 years of it's life, UO was "100% non-con PvP" and hugely successful... and yes, that is the current market, because last time I checked UO is still open for business!
It is because of UO's HUGE early success that it is still standing. It's why there are so many of us (such as myself) that have been playing for so long. The UO I fell in love with was UO (pre-t2a), I got hooked on it. Playing it for the first time was like smoking your first ciggarette... harsh, but so so addictive.
They always had the choice. Even in pre-Ren days they had the choice. If you don't like first person shooters, you dont run out to the store and buy Counter Strike, do you? If you didn't like UO's style of non-con PvP, don't play it. It is as simple as that. No-one was forced to play UO, but they did
M
Minky
Guest
Firstly mate: I applaud you on a very well-written pro-non-consensual PvP post. *tips bonnet*
Let's compare methods of instituted PvP systems across two other games: SW:G and WoW (granted, WoW is the IN thing right now, but we're just after their PvP system)
SW:G: The game has undergone two revisions that completely altered the game mechanics, which caused the decline of that player base's subscriptions. During the initial game, the PvP was thirving, because the game was new (and it had a Star Wars skin). The PvP was also horribly unbalanced, because it had a skill system - much like UO. It also had a way to opt-in to the PvP system via Overt, Covert, and Neutral.
As the game went through its next phase, the subscriptions declined, but the PvP was slightly changed into Special Forces (constantly flagged), Combatant (PvP vs NPCs pretty much), and still Neutral.
During the third, and current, system, it has kept the same PvP flagging as it had during the second phase, but players kept leaving. The declining subscriptions weren't due to the PvP system. There are still a goodly number of PvP'rs flitting about in SW:G, perhaps more than during the original game because SOE has gone from a skill-based system to a class-based system making it (more) balanced.
WoW: This game has an opt-in system from the get-go. You can select PvP, PvE, and RP realms. On the PvP realms, your character is always flagged outside of the few safe havens (towns, starting zones, sanctuaries). On the PvE realms, you can choose when to flag yourself, or you can join PvP arenas (battlegrounds), same with the RP realms.
Aside from being the IN thing right now, the game's PvP system is superb because as someone said earlier: Choice.
Why did I compare two games to UO? Because you can see a good bit of UO residing within them. UO is the granddaddy of visual MUDs, it is most likely the sole reason for the MMO market.
For UO's PvP to thrive, it must have an Opt-In (flagging), or it must be balanced (classes). I say this knowing that UO has the best Open-PvP out of any game, but I also realize that for more players to enjoy it, in today's gaming world, it is missing that one thing to make it great: Choice.
Let's compare methods of instituted PvP systems across two other games: SW:G and WoW (granted, WoW is the IN thing right now, but we're just after their PvP system)
SW:G: The game has undergone two revisions that completely altered the game mechanics, which caused the decline of that player base's subscriptions. During the initial game, the PvP was thirving, because the game was new (and it had a Star Wars skin). The PvP was also horribly unbalanced, because it had a skill system - much like UO. It also had a way to opt-in to the PvP system via Overt, Covert, and Neutral.
As the game went through its next phase, the subscriptions declined, but the PvP was slightly changed into Special Forces (constantly flagged), Combatant (PvP vs NPCs pretty much), and still Neutral.
During the third, and current, system, it has kept the same PvP flagging as it had during the second phase, but players kept leaving. The declining subscriptions weren't due to the PvP system. There are still a goodly number of PvP'rs flitting about in SW:G, perhaps more than during the original game because SOE has gone from a skill-based system to a class-based system making it (more) balanced.
WoW: This game has an opt-in system from the get-go. You can select PvP, PvE, and RP realms. On the PvP realms, your character is always flagged outside of the few safe havens (towns, starting zones, sanctuaries). On the PvE realms, you can choose when to flag yourself, or you can join PvP arenas (battlegrounds), same with the RP realms.
Aside from being the IN thing right now, the game's PvP system is superb because as someone said earlier: Choice.
Why did I compare two games to UO? Because you can see a good bit of UO residing within them. UO is the granddaddy of visual MUDs, it is most likely the sole reason for the MMO market.
For UO's PvP to thrive, it must have an Opt-In (flagging), or it must be balanced (classes). I say this knowing that UO has the best Open-PvP out of any game, but I also realize that for more players to enjoy it, in today's gaming world, it is missing that one thing to make it great: Choice.
Well my little heart went pitter patter when I read they were thinking about it. I left shortly after pub 16. I played the gauntlet of games available. I finally settled on AC, and played it for multiple years with multiple accts.
I'd reactivate UO from time to time and see if I could stand it or if something new would bring me back. I returned just over a year ago. I missed things about this game, and decided to just play like i used to. None of my chars are powerful enough to run with big dogs. I fish and I treasure hunt. I mine and I do BODS. I fight in the old dungeons, both fel and in tram, mood depending.
But lately I am logging in less and less because for the most part I am all alone in that play style, and current UO is about bigger and stronger and badder. More things with more mods for more millions.
I'm kind of rambling, but the problem with defining "classic" is we throw the tram/fel debate in the mix. A classic shard is a slap on some armor and go shard. One where death hurts cause you lose it all, but it doesn't hurt too much cause cheap armor protects just the same. Where grandmaster meant something. How pvp is handled within the system is a different debate. One that will make some people happy one way and some people happy another.
I know if they do it, I'm there however they choose to define it. And the way I've felt lately it might be the thing that keeps me and my multiple accts from taking another walkabout.
I'd reactivate UO from time to time and see if I could stand it or if something new would bring me back. I returned just over a year ago. I missed things about this game, and decided to just play like i used to. None of my chars are powerful enough to run with big dogs. I fish and I treasure hunt. I mine and I do BODS. I fight in the old dungeons, both fel and in tram, mood depending.
But lately I am logging in less and less because for the most part I am all alone in that play style, and current UO is about bigger and stronger and badder. More things with more mods for more millions.
I'm kind of rambling, but the problem with defining "classic" is we throw the tram/fel debate in the mix. A classic shard is a slap on some armor and go shard. One where death hurts cause you lose it all, but it doesn't hurt too much cause cheap armor protects just the same. Where grandmaster meant something. How pvp is handled within the system is a different debate. One that will make some people happy one way and some people happy another.
I know if they do it, I'm there however they choose to define it. And the way I've felt lately it might be the thing that keeps me and my multiple accts from taking another walkabout.
K
Kiminality
Guest
That's the point, it was an entirely new genre.
It would have had similar popularity if RG had completely left PvP out of the original design.
Non-con PvP might have been an element that appealed to a group of people, and kept them playing, but it had no more to do with UO's rise than any other element in it.
Non-con PvP has basically nothing to do with current success of UO.There is one.... can anyone think of it? Hmmm...
No?
I will give you a hint. It's the longest continuously running MMORPG in history...
Still no?
Another hint: it's initials are U and O...
Yup. Thats right. For the first 3 years of it's life, UO was "100% non-con PvP" and hugely successful... and yes, that is the current market, because last time I checked UO is still open for business!
Siege, perhaps, but the majority of UO's modern success comes from production shard PvE related things.
PvP to the level that occurred was never intended in the original designs, so it was always "the nail that stuck out"They always had the choice. Even in pre-Ren days they had the choice. If you don't like first person shooters, you dont run out to the store and buy Counter Strike, do you? If you didn't like UO's style of non-con PvP, don't play it. It is as simple as that. No-one was forced to play UO, but they did
And as has been established, there was no real alternative - either play the brand new massively multiplayer RPG with the likelihood of getting PKed often, or play single player RPGs.
To put it another way, what if OSI had told the PvPers to GTFO? That wouldn't have been cool, but you're ultimately saying the non-PvPers should have.
R
Rhoark
Guest
Played 1998-2002. I saw the producer's letter on my semi-monthly "wonder what UO is up to" visit and came here looking for just such a thread.
First of all, setting a specific publish as a cutoff is just stupid - there have been too many bug fixes, UI enhancements, and features that were good ideas to just go back to a specific date. Don't even focus on the features, but on the big picture. Figure out what playing a classic shard should "feel" like, then create a menu of features that complement the feel.
Here's my list, focusing on _experience_ rather than _features_.
#1 Player density. MMOs are about other people. Making a specifically classic shard would be a perfect opportunity to axe Malas and Tokuno and of course go back to just one Sosaria, whether its Trammel or Felucca. Ilshenar I'm partial to keeping because its almost entirely an adventure space rather than a social/trade one, and it has more interesting lore than the lands of "lol ninjas" and "lol necromancers". Facets can be spared though with changes that funnel players to only a few areas for specific purposes. You want people to spread out for adventuring but then concentrate for socialization and trade. For example, when UO launched, there were only 4 banks: West Britain, Trinsic, Vesper, and Nu'Jelm. There were also no NPC vendors. If you wanted to buy or sell something, you went to one of the three mainland banks and talked to other players. I'm not suggesting removing banks or player owned vendors, but... actually I am. Player density and player interaction (that is spontaneous, not a pre-arranged event) is more important than everything else.
UO is kind of painted into a corner because people are so attached to their houses, but finding a way towards fewer servers and facets will make for a better game. It will work best if the needs of the "classic" audience and the siege audience can be served on the same shard. That may not be possible.
#2 Trade. People have to lose stuff so that they need to buy stuff, so that someone can sell it to them. That probably means no insurance. It also means there should not be that much difference between the best possible gear and what someone can afford on an hour spent making gold. The ideal arrangement is probably crafting with materials as they were just before AoS, so there's a continuum of price/power but the top (GM crafted valorite with no properties) can still be reasonably regarded as throw-away gear. It would probably be good for the item property system to go away, but it doesn't necessarily have to as long as the economy is set up that the norm is wearing crafted gear that is easily lost and easily replaced. I don't really know anything about imbuing to tell if it fits the bill.
#3 Consensual and non-consensual PvP. Two things that people will not readily remember or admit are a) the justice system at launch was severely broken with perverse incentives and disincentives, and b) PKing was pretty much dead due to harsh stat loss right before Trammel. PKing actually picked up when they dropped stat loss after Trammel came about. There is no patch, expansion, or publish you can name where the PvP landscape was perfect. I reiterate the need to aim for a classic feel, not a classic feature list. PKs enhance the game for everyone by providing fear and excitement, as long as they don't completely take over. A trammel has to be provided I think or some people will just ragequit. They won't listen to any argument or even try it. However, there should be very little challenge or reward in it. It's the settled, civilized trade and socialization area and newbie training ground. The Lost Lands, Ilshenar, _and Sosarian dungeons_ should be lawless frontier non-con PvP zones and the place to go for the best PvE rewards.
#4 Keep new skills and stat cap scrolls. In the early days, there weren't even 700 points you could spend on combat-relevant skills. It wasn't that great, actually. The synergy of chivalry and bushido probably needs to be looked at because last I played a trial account it seemed like characters with those two skills were on a completely different playing field in PvE. That doesn't mean they should be taken out for a classic experience though. Classic is an experience, not a version number. Elves are stupid, though.
First of all, setting a specific publish as a cutoff is just stupid - there have been too many bug fixes, UI enhancements, and features that were good ideas to just go back to a specific date. Don't even focus on the features, but on the big picture. Figure out what playing a classic shard should "feel" like, then create a menu of features that complement the feel.
Here's my list, focusing on _experience_ rather than _features_.
#1 Player density. MMOs are about other people. Making a specifically classic shard would be a perfect opportunity to axe Malas and Tokuno and of course go back to just one Sosaria, whether its Trammel or Felucca. Ilshenar I'm partial to keeping because its almost entirely an adventure space rather than a social/trade one, and it has more interesting lore than the lands of "lol ninjas" and "lol necromancers". Facets can be spared though with changes that funnel players to only a few areas for specific purposes. You want people to spread out for adventuring but then concentrate for socialization and trade. For example, when UO launched, there were only 4 banks: West Britain, Trinsic, Vesper, and Nu'Jelm. There were also no NPC vendors. If you wanted to buy or sell something, you went to one of the three mainland banks and talked to other players. I'm not suggesting removing banks or player owned vendors, but... actually I am. Player density and player interaction (that is spontaneous, not a pre-arranged event) is more important than everything else.
UO is kind of painted into a corner because people are so attached to their houses, but finding a way towards fewer servers and facets will make for a better game. It will work best if the needs of the "classic" audience and the siege audience can be served on the same shard. That may not be possible.
#2 Trade. People have to lose stuff so that they need to buy stuff, so that someone can sell it to them. That probably means no insurance. It also means there should not be that much difference between the best possible gear and what someone can afford on an hour spent making gold. The ideal arrangement is probably crafting with materials as they were just before AoS, so there's a continuum of price/power but the top (GM crafted valorite with no properties) can still be reasonably regarded as throw-away gear. It would probably be good for the item property system to go away, but it doesn't necessarily have to as long as the economy is set up that the norm is wearing crafted gear that is easily lost and easily replaced. I don't really know anything about imbuing to tell if it fits the bill.
#3 Consensual and non-consensual PvP. Two things that people will not readily remember or admit are a) the justice system at launch was severely broken with perverse incentives and disincentives, and b) PKing was pretty much dead due to harsh stat loss right before Trammel. PKing actually picked up when they dropped stat loss after Trammel came about. There is no patch, expansion, or publish you can name where the PvP landscape was perfect. I reiterate the need to aim for a classic feel, not a classic feature list. PKs enhance the game for everyone by providing fear and excitement, as long as they don't completely take over. A trammel has to be provided I think or some people will just ragequit. They won't listen to any argument or even try it. However, there should be very little challenge or reward in it. It's the settled, civilized trade and socialization area and newbie training ground. The Lost Lands, Ilshenar, _and Sosarian dungeons_ should be lawless frontier non-con PvP zones and the place to go for the best PvE rewards.
#4 Keep new skills and stat cap scrolls. In the early days, there weren't even 700 points you could spend on combat-relevant skills. It wasn't that great, actually. The synergy of chivalry and bushido probably needs to be looked at because last I played a trial account it seemed like characters with those two skills were on a completely different playing field in PvE. That doesn't mean they should be taken out for a classic experience though. Classic is an experience, not a version number. Elves are stupid, though.
E
Evlar
Guest
What interests me most so far in this discussion, seems to be that along with the both-ways PvP talk (which is always going to divide opinions), most people seem to agree when it comes to items and item-based gameplay.
Craftable items being the "best" option, along with the odd (although rare) loot finds, instead of the "item-based" game, more emphasis on "skills".
PS: Good post Rhoark BTW
Craftable items being the "best" option, along with the odd (although rare) loot finds, instead of the "item-based" game, more emphasis on "skills".
PS: Good post Rhoark BTW
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BlackMagus
Guest
Why does everyone claim this, while it's blatantly untrue...?
UO has had PvP during the whole beta. Did they remove it? No.
UO has had PvP when it initially launched. Did they remove it? No.
UO's first major publish has been to add the notoriety system, to handle what? *drum rolls* PvP *tada*
UO's first *three* years was wide open for non-consentual PvP.
To sum it up: UO's initial game mechanics did deliberately support PvP gameplay in all it's facets. This obviously excluded exploitation. This though did not exclude ganking, thievery, looting, and all the other not so cozy gameplay styles that are trammeled out nowadays...
M
Minky
Guest
The above bolded part is inaccurate. The game was released under the idea of it having Role Playing and Player Justice. The players morphed it into open PvP.
After some heavy debate off-stratics with several old players I've been trying to get back into UO - or to just come here & post fer crissake - they told me to go ahead and post these opinions for them...
Player 1
"Classic Client", "Classic Shard" - what's this with "Classic"? Everything grows and changes or there wouldn't be any progress. Leave the "Classic" stuff to the free-shards and make the paid UO something everyone can be happy to play in by the following:
----fix factions (he doesn't know they are doing that already)
----take away power scrolls and other twinking scrolls - takes the fun out of developing a character!
----take away artifacts, uber-godlike weapons should be an uber rarity and NOT insurable or blessed... but most likely cursed! (in D&D uber weapons were intelligent and tried to take control of the player, remember?!?)
Player 2
bring back order vs chaos and limit the factions to gaining cities only if they are one or the other... so yea, combine order/chaos with factions. take away all the arties and make crafted items worthwhile again. bring back item decay, take away insurance, and create a HUGE gold sink of some sort as there is just way too much gold in the game. and yeah, that bounty system was the schiz - i missed collecting heads!
Player 3
One toon per shard.
Player 4
I like everything the way it is, but would like to see some form of risk again along with changes to housing and vending. Trammel-Ruleset is the majority of the game now, and there is no risk of anything. Remember before Trammel, the risk was great to gather resources, so the price was more on the vendors, but it was FUN. Now, is a grind to go and chop wood, mine ores, create cloth, gather leather and make stuff no one really buys so you drop your vendor prices. Time + effort = $ very basic pricing rule. It is not profitable anymore to be a merchant as the time to gather the resources and make the items is still the same, but we have to drop our prices because no one buys - they'd rather go get some arties. If they use crafted items, well, just about everyone has created a crafting mule... that's why I left. I have more fun now on (free shard name removed) than I have for years in UO. Why? I'm a crafter and a merchant and just about no one else is! And there is a tax system - not just vendor cost. So if I make more gold, I have to pay more taxes for the protection of the city, which by the way I have a shop IN Brit right by the WBB! Dunno how they do it but players can RENT a SHOP in the cities! Is awesome - and totally fun! Rent is a percentage of my shop's profit so yeah, you get to learn how to run a business and think of the costs! Vendors are not allowed in private homes, so having a shop means you have your house AND the shop. Very real this shard, and very much fun!
To repeat, the above is not MY input... but the words of several players I still talk to who are not in EA's version of UO. Most play on free shards, or have left UO altogether and play some other game.
Player 1
"Classic Client", "Classic Shard" - what's this with "Classic"? Everything grows and changes or there wouldn't be any progress. Leave the "Classic" stuff to the free-shards and make the paid UO something everyone can be happy to play in by the following:
----fix factions (he doesn't know they are doing that already)
----take away power scrolls and other twinking scrolls - takes the fun out of developing a character!
----take away artifacts, uber-godlike weapons should be an uber rarity and NOT insurable or blessed... but most likely cursed! (in D&D uber weapons were intelligent and tried to take control of the player, remember?!?)
Player 2
bring back order vs chaos and limit the factions to gaining cities only if they are one or the other... so yea, combine order/chaos with factions. take away all the arties and make crafted items worthwhile again. bring back item decay, take away insurance, and create a HUGE gold sink of some sort as there is just way too much gold in the game. and yeah, that bounty system was the schiz - i missed collecting heads!
Player 3
One toon per shard.
Player 4
I like everything the way it is, but would like to see some form of risk again along with changes to housing and vending. Trammel-Ruleset is the majority of the game now, and there is no risk of anything. Remember before Trammel, the risk was great to gather resources, so the price was more on the vendors, but it was FUN. Now, is a grind to go and chop wood, mine ores, create cloth, gather leather and make stuff no one really buys so you drop your vendor prices. Time + effort = $ very basic pricing rule. It is not profitable anymore to be a merchant as the time to gather the resources and make the items is still the same, but we have to drop our prices because no one buys - they'd rather go get some arties. If they use crafted items, well, just about everyone has created a crafting mule... that's why I left. I have more fun now on (free shard name removed) than I have for years in UO. Why? I'm a crafter and a merchant and just about no one else is! And there is a tax system - not just vendor cost. So if I make more gold, I have to pay more taxes for the protection of the city, which by the way I have a shop IN Brit right by the WBB! Dunno how they do it but players can RENT a SHOP in the cities! Is awesome - and totally fun! Rent is a percentage of my shop's profit so yeah, you get to learn how to run a business and think of the costs! Vendors are not allowed in private homes, so having a shop means you have your house AND the shop. Very real this shard, and very much fun!
To repeat, the above is not MY input... but the words of several players I still talk to who are not in EA's version of UO. Most play on free shards, or have left UO altogether and play some other game.
K
Kiminality
Guest
They didn't remove it, I agree. Not because they thought a wide-open PvP game would be awesome, but presumably because they couldn't know what was going to happen for certain. They didn't have a whole lot of hindsight and previous examples to go on, being that they were pretty much pioneering.
RG really didn't like PKs.
And the notoriety system... As you say, it was to handle PvP - PvP that took off to an extent they hadn't anticipated within the original design - and additional mechanics were needed to make up for the fact "player justice" wasn't working as well as expected.
^This, in other words
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BlackMagus
Guest
M
Minky
Guest
Very accurate assessment. While the ideas of p16+ have some merit, the old simple game was fun.
I would have loved to see the old UO with the addition of customizable housing, bonded pets with the whole "listening to the master" rule, usable specials instead of random proc chance (that procced pretty often), monster ideas. I would have just rather seen the old Virtue Dungeons revamped with all the additions instead of landmass after landmass after landmass after landmass being released (although the idea of Ilshenar is nice).
Outside of those agreed upon ideas, the only argument that has stood during the whole existence of UO has been the Consensual or Non-Consensual PvP front.
During it's peak, an additional landmass was okay. As life happens, so does evolution. With today's subscription numbers, less landmass is required. Hey devs, here's some ideas:
Remove Powerscrolls, bring back skill and remove items.
Update all the old monsters, let lizardmen pierce your armor and let drakes rake you and make you bleed.
Remove the idea that a hard encounter means you luck-out and have enough HP to outlast your opponent - why not have a mob that has 99% armor and like 50 HP, but every time he is hit, he spawns an underling with 25 HP and 5% armor? Or maybe have a monster heal himself everytime he's hit by non-Cold magic damage? Here's an original idea, a robot that is immune to magic damage until its shield has been removed by physical damage, then once the shield is down, it is only susceptible to magic damage? Oh wait, that last idea already exists in-game.
From the last example of the LBR robot (forgot the name), what happened to that era of ideas that challenge = hard, not luck = hard?
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Minky
Guest
M
Minky
Guest
I allowed myself to get derailed.
Not one person is saying to remove PvP.
PvP is a requirement for any game to flourish.
Predator/Prey PvP is not.
Not one person is saying to remove PvP.
PvP is a requirement for any game to flourish.
Predator/Prey PvP is not.
K
Kiminality
Guest
Ooooh! Stating of facts!
1.) Yes, it has. No one's actually arguing that.
2.) Yes, that's true. But, the reason was that they didn't design the game with widespread and indiscriminate PvP in mind. So, they had to put in the development hours, to iron out the unforeseen consequences.
3.) Perhaps, but through their own choice? Or because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time?
No, I don't think that at all.
You seem to think that Origin were incapable of making a mistake, in underestimating the popularity of PvP in UO. They assumed a balance where a few people could play villains, and the virtuous masses would oppose them. PvP became more popular than they anticipated, and that balance became quickly tipped, and the "villains" grew too powerful.
The reality of the situation ran contrary to RG's vision, thus the original intended design.
And you're speculating that, even though it goes completely contrary to the producer's vision, and they spend three years dedicating development time to "fixing" it, large-scale non-con PvP was exactly what they intended.
Who ever said there was "player justice" in Trammel.
How about you try reading what people are writing, hmm?
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BlackMagus
Guest
I agree that we disagree on this matter.
Since I do not personally know RG to ask him about his vision when he created and maintained the game back in the 90s, and you probably do neither, I'll settle at that...
Since I do not personally know RG to ask him about his vision when he created and maintained the game back in the 90s, and you probably do neither, I'll settle at that...
K
KoolAidAddict
Guest
If were gonna go "classic", then lets go with a Pre Pub ONE shard.
Put in all the bug fixes, but leave out all the rest of the addons, adjustments, pretties, etc, etc, etc.
UO......as it went LIVE, day one!
Woot me in, im there babee!!!!
Put in all the bug fixes, but leave out all the rest of the addons, adjustments, pretties, etc, etc, etc.
UO......as it went LIVE, day one!
Woot me in, im there babee!!!!
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
A "classic shard" will never exist.
Here is why:
People have choices now. Instead of playing UO, and dealing with PKs, they would simply move to a shard without them, unless of course they wanted to be PKs. We see where that goes with Fel and SP. Useless. No victims, no protectors. Old UO is DEAD. EQ came along, and AC, and killed it. It's no one's fault. It was the natural progression of gaming.
To really see a "classic UO" shard, you would have to have something that offered something that nothing else offered. And you won't. There it is.
Players, no names mentioned here, that hated being PKed, moved on to other games. Once Tram arrived, some came back, or the ones that had stuck around simply moved there. Done.
Ultima Online died when Tram was created. A new game was introduced using the same name, but it is far from the original game...and it gets further from the original with every single expansion...especially AOS.
Face it. Ultima Online has become a 2d version of every other MMO out there and is dead.
My best advice is to move on from it. I give it less than 2 years before they pull the plug on the servers. They cannot afford to bring it up to snuff with the competitors they have, and it cannot go back to what it once was.
It was a good run, and an awesome game. I will always hold the memories in my heart. I am glad to have been a part of something so special, but the end has come. Now UO dies a slow death. I will be here to see it, but I will not hold on to hope that we can ever recapture what once was.
Here is why:
People have choices now. Instead of playing UO, and dealing with PKs, they would simply move to a shard without them, unless of course they wanted to be PKs. We see where that goes with Fel and SP. Useless. No victims, no protectors. Old UO is DEAD. EQ came along, and AC, and killed it. It's no one's fault. It was the natural progression of gaming.
To really see a "classic UO" shard, you would have to have something that offered something that nothing else offered. And you won't. There it is.
Players, no names mentioned here, that hated being PKed, moved on to other games. Once Tram arrived, some came back, or the ones that had stuck around simply moved there. Done.
Ultima Online died when Tram was created. A new game was introduced using the same name, but it is far from the original game...and it gets further from the original with every single expansion...especially AOS.
Face it. Ultima Online has become a 2d version of every other MMO out there and is dead.
My best advice is to move on from it. I give it less than 2 years before they pull the plug on the servers. They cannot afford to bring it up to snuff with the competitors they have, and it cannot go back to what it once was.
It was a good run, and an awesome game. I will always hold the memories in my heart. I am glad to have been a part of something so special, but the end has come. Now UO dies a slow death. I will be here to see it, but I will not hold on to hope that we can ever recapture what once was.
...
UO changed, yes. UO is dead for a specific and narrow playstyle, granted, but to say that "UO is dead and is no different than any other MMOG out there" is a completely narrowly viewed falsehood.
UO is and has always been MUUUUCH more than just non-con PvP (even before April 2000)
Oh and to point out a contradiction:
Ultima Online died when Tram was created
...
Now UO dies a slow death.
A contradiction cannot exist, if a contradiction exists, check your premises... given the two statements above, one must be incorrect for the other to be true.
You are right though in that a "classic shard" will NOT bring back the predator/prey model people seem to want back. That model has FAILED... repeatedly.
I know the rose colored memory glasses are fun to wear, but it's not going to bring back what made those days "fun". We can look back, but we can only move forward.
If UO's days are numbered, it will be due to MANY more recent circumstances than letting people opt out of getting killed for stepping outside a guard zone.
UO changed, yes. UO is dead for a specific and narrow playstyle, granted, but to say that "UO is dead and is no different than any other MMOG out there" is a completely narrowly viewed falsehood.
UO is and has always been MUUUUCH more than just non-con PvP (even before April 2000)
Oh and to point out a contradiction:
Ultima Online died when Tram was created
...
Now UO dies a slow death.
A contradiction cannot exist, if a contradiction exists, check your premises... given the two statements above, one must be incorrect for the other to be true.
You are right though in that a "classic shard" will NOT bring back the predator/prey model people seem to want back. That model has FAILED... repeatedly.
I know the rose colored memory glasses are fun to wear, but it's not going to bring back what made those days "fun". We can look back, but we can only move forward.
If UO's days are numbered, it will be due to MANY more recent circumstances than letting people opt out of getting killed for stepping outside a guard zone.
Hope is not gone until EA pulls the plug. Until then there is always the chance EA will choose to undo it's mistakes.
They gave us the choice of Siege Perilous for the Tram haters. It lacks a lot of relatively helpless victims for gankers to have fun with, but people pay money to have fun themselves, not be fun for others.
Giving us a skill-based non-item based shard would be a popular thing. People who play Crafters would find play there more fun. People who don't play a lot of hours a week & so don't have uber-gear could hunt monsters that are not powered up to be a challenge for super-uber gear players.
I could play a UO:Ren based shard for years. Just as I still play old WIN95 stand-alone games. I don't need a game to constantly change. I just want it to be constantly entertaining.
Taking the AoS changes out of the game would do wonders for it.
Well, maybe because we have the orginal designers thoughts on the subject available for every one to go read. If everyone spent a little time over at Raph's blog reserching his various UO comments, perhaps we could elevate the discussion to what people want in the shard instead of 'what was'.
http://www.raphkoster.com/
V
Vyal
Guest
SP is stupid, Luna? Malas? T2A? Ter Mur? With no population....
UO is pretty vast stickin 50 players in all of UO without insurance and you have SP.
No a classic shard T2A and Fel only, no insurance, no necro, no ninja, no pet balls, no supers, no dreadmares, no dismounts with bows (only bolas & you need tactics to hit with a bola) no 120's just 7x GM and cut your heads off
Then again EA will never in a million years do it as good as the free shard does :/
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
THIS is exactly what I am talking about. Look no further for evidence that old UO is dead and gone.
"rose colored memory glasses" "killed for stepping outside of guard zone" "predator/prey model people seem to want back"
These sentiments are what echoes through the current player base. Why would EA/Mythic ever revert back to anything other than what the current player base (as a majority) wants??
Dermott validates my points rather than refuting them, the way he thought he might. The old days are GONE. They have been gone a long time...and make no mistake Dermott, that is what ultimately killed UO. The rest is simply the corpse decaying as pixel crack players feed off it.
...
Morgana what YOU knew is gone (or in reality, changed) doesn;t mean that UO is "dead".
Again, you contradicted yourself in your initial post... either UO (in your opinion) is "dead" or "slowly dying", it cannot be both.
For example, UO has changed a lot for me. There are things I miss and things I'm glad to have been part of, things I think they could have done MUCH better (including the creation of Trammel... always believed it was implemented backwards and the PKs should have been tossed out instead), and I think we're at a very critical time in the game after the downsizing, the incomplete attempt at two client upgrades and an expansion... but that doesn't mean UO is dead.
People who signed up for an MMOG expecting it to never change are simply in the wrong genre.
Morgana what YOU knew is gone (or in reality, changed) doesn;t mean that UO is "dead".
Again, you contradicted yourself in your initial post... either UO (in your opinion) is "dead" or "slowly dying", it cannot be both.
For example, UO has changed a lot for me. There are things I miss and things I'm glad to have been part of, things I think they could have done MUCH better (including the creation of Trammel... always believed it was implemented backwards and the PKs should have been tossed out instead), and I think we're at a very critical time in the game after the downsizing, the incomplete attempt at two client upgrades and an expansion... but that doesn't mean UO is dead.
People who signed up for an MMOG expecting it to never change are simply in the wrong genre.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Yep. And that is all that matters to me. A time will come when you will find the same applies to you.
UO is dead. UO is something that Richard Garriott created with Origin. What exists now is nothing but a cheap, neon colored, plastic copy. If you like that copy, then so be it. I cannot, and SHOULD NOT, tell you what to like and dislike...but make no mistake, UO is dead, and it will never return.
- Status