T
Trevelyan
Guest
Pub 15 (aka pre pub 16)
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Define "Classic Shard"
- Thread starter sablestorm
- Start date
- Watchers 13
- Status
UO:Ren, before the game became item based & after players were freed from the clowns in armor with weapons who liked to act tough and manly after wasting a miner in regular clothes and holding a shovel.
PvPers who fight opponets capable of fighting back I have no problem with.
PvPers who fight opponets capable of fighting back I have no problem with.
pre pub 16 That pub was the start of the fall of the true UO experience.
I doubt it would be low population. I'd say a lot of people from 26 shards would go check it out, find all the annoying features of today's UO gone along with some nice ones sadly, and chose to stay.
Let me transfer in my 9 trained characters & nothing else, I'd do it in a second. if I had to start & train new characters, I might hesitate 4 or 5 seconds.
Giving up the nice game additions to get rid of Items, BODs, Super-monsters, & all the other junk would be well worth it.
E
Evlar
Guest
You just reminded me of one of the most fun times I spent playing UO there actually.
I created a warrior/miner back in those days, to combat roving reds and PK's. I still have this character now, although his skills template has changed somewhat.
I can picture it now.... beating off a red or PK with a pickaxe... it was tough, but it was possible if it was the type of "clown" you mentioned, who's only PvP prey could be the "non" PvP suited characters.
I always liked to leave a lump of ore and a book with a short "Sorry... but the miner won!" type message inside, on their corpse.
To me, those days were a good challenge. Of course the PvP example I've just mentioned was non-consent, I potentially being the victim of the part, but I went out there knowing that there was always a risk involved. If I knew an area was often populated by roving PK's, I would hire other players or take some guildmates as protection. Sometimes the mining trip would be uneventful, but in some of my best mining locations, there was often plenty of action.
Of course, I do agree that the rampant non-consent PvP that was prevalent at the time inevitably lead to the changes. The changes were poorly implemented though, as others have suggested.
I've never actually been heavily into PvP, though I've participated often enough over the years if there's a point to it. That's why to me, it's a crying shame that factions, virtues and such, have never been right. Something with great potential that's been let fall by the wayside in favour of further expansions, dabbles with potential sequel games and newer clients.
Had a lot of problems been nipped in the bud in the early days, the game wouldn't be where it is now. Arguably, it might not have been so item based. Arguably it would have been more of a challenge. Arguably... it might have kept a larger player base.
Hmm?
Oh right, I forgot. Most "PvPers" want magery to be the only option for PvP.
B
BlackMagus
Guest
Why implement a classic shard and half way ass it up? Classic is pre-UOR/pub5!
That is 3 years after the launch of UO, and during the height of the game in terms of subscription numbers.
Anything after that is also already long ago, but it does not constitute classic UO in the sense of UO as it is originally been like.
Viva la classic shard!
That is 3 years after the launch of UO, and during the height of the game in terms of subscription numbers.
Anything after that is also already long ago, but it does not constitute classic UO in the sense of UO as it is originally been like.
Viva la classic shard!
Baja is the only Classic shard I know of.
An SoS
An SoS
Pre-AoS (duh)
No Trammel ruleset
No Greater Dragons
No Dread Mares
No artifacts
No faction artifacts
No RoT
No Trammel ruleset
No Greater Dragons
No Dread Mares
No artifacts
No faction artifacts
No RoT
As someone said earlier, Archery used to be crap for PvP. Before it was crap, it was overpowered, they nerfed it.
Tamers with swarms of dragons? Swarms of dragons that died, and stayed dead.
How about all the other imbalanced rubbish that everyone's forgotten about? Things are still unbalanced.
What about smiths being useful?
What about tailors being useful?
What about Skills meaning something?
What about items you find off mobs being useful?
What about NPC's being useful again?
What about the need for other players? Now I can play most of the time solo and never need another persons help.
This list can go on and on.
Tom
Yep.. there you go.
In other words... scratch everything after that. Do-Over with PLANNING not just reaction.
*sigh* to go back in time... heh.
a pipedream
QTF
What Tom said.
What game were you playing back then? UO subs were dropping pre Ren. UORen saved UO. UOs best subs were pre AoS at 250K. Already people are saying pre whatever but also let us have. If they are going to do a clasic shard then they need to pick a date and only the stuff that was there can be used. I remember the rants all so well pre Pub16 of all the tamer and mage flames. If you want pre Tram then go play SP and give more player slots to SP. No one will agree what a clasic shard is so the Devs will have to just say this is what we think a clasic shard is and go from there. If it is Fel only it will not last long.
Here is a good link for all the pubs http://www.uoguide.com/Publish
L
Llwyd
Guest
Sometimes I feel like we're talking about the stone age.
UO has evolved -- not always in desirable ways -- but it has evolved and it would be difficult, if not impossible, to return to the past.
UO has evolved -- not always in desirable ways -- but it has evolved and it would be difficult, if not impossible, to return to the past.
B
BlackMagus
Guest
My fault for being unclear: pre UOR had the highest player density, with subscriptions per square mile of game territory. And that's what I cared about back then, and care about now.
And no, SP is absolutely not the same as pre Tram.
But I do agree that no one will ever agree on the ideal definition of classic...
K
Kiminality
Guest
Yeah, let's all live in a world where we can pretend that tamers toting around multiple dragons isn't a problem. I mean, they stay dead, if you can kill one before the swarm kills you, right? And the tamer can't tame another to replace it, right?
We can pretend that the classic shard won't end up with an oversaturation of crafters, which by your reckoning would be useful again, which would surely be more reason for people to train up one than to train up a currently not useful one.
Just making a list of things you remember, all in a rosy tint, doesn't make it true.
And even it by some miracle it does turn out to be true, there's a fatal flaw in the reasoning of "Let's go back in time, and it'll all be good" - The psychology of the players has changed, along with the MMO market. What worked in the past is highly unlikely to work in the present, straight out of the box.
L
Lord Onslaught
Guest
Spellplay is, and always has been, the only player skill based pvp in uo. The item and rng based pvp we have now completely misses the point of having a classic shard.
This would interest even me for PvP.
Ganks would still be an issue...but in war...outnumbering opponents is an age old tactic for winning battles, I guess. And if a person signs up for Order/Chaos, even I would have to just know it can happen!
I would definitely try a shard like this...it could be very fun.
M
Mairut
Guest
I don't much care to "bring back the old UO". Sure, I loved it. It was great... all the people I met, all the fun I had exploring... it was absolutely wonderful.
If some people want a classic shard, and the devs are willing to do it... whatever. And I don't mean whatever like it sounds, but far be it from me to keep people from doing what they want.
What I want is a new... brand...spanking...new Golden Age for UO.
I want this game to be better than it's EVER been before. I would like to see UO on the top of the MMO gaming lists again as one of the top games.
The thing with that is... it doesn't have to be like those other games (WoW, etc.), with the grinding and/or whatever. This game has always been unique, but unique doesn't have to mean niche, and I think we need to move away from that. No... *sigh*... not move away from what makes UO unique. Move away from the definition that UO is unique=niche and you can't play this x game if you're y.
The only thing I'd like to see brought back is the community that it had before...and I don't mean that it has to be around a bank or smithy either. No, I don't know how to do that. Maybe a higher population would work, maybe not.
Before, in the "golden age" of UO, we had pkrs to help keep the community together... imo. Either you went out in a group or what have you, or you risked getting pk'd.
You trusted that smithy to give you back your armor, you trusted that when you ran to WBB from a dungeon or graveyard, someone would be there to help you get to your corpse (actually this still works if you forget to auto-insure).
But that doesn't mean that those things are all there is to create a community-type feel around. I still don't see any reason why I can't have my items AND my feeling of camaraderie with the rest of the UO player-base.
And back then, I didn't notice that the devs had a whole lot to do with that feeling. Either you trusted people or you didn't, either you were trustworthy or you weren't (or your characters were/n't).
Hopefully, at some point in time, we can have our cake and eat it too (and make the people who play those "other games" say ....wth was that! where did UO just come from?! I thought it died in 2000! Omg.. why have I been playing this game, when I could have been on UO?)
I guess for me, classic shard isn't so much about the items and how they worked, the gumps and whatever else. It was more about how I felt when I was playing then, and I'm 99% positive that we can have that again along with what the game has turned into now, with the items, gumps and whatever else.
If some people want a classic shard, and the devs are willing to do it... whatever. And I don't mean whatever like it sounds, but far be it from me to keep people from doing what they want.
What I want is a new... brand...spanking...new Golden Age for UO.
I want this game to be better than it's EVER been before. I would like to see UO on the top of the MMO gaming lists again as one of the top games.
The thing with that is... it doesn't have to be like those other games (WoW, etc.), with the grinding and/or whatever. This game has always been unique, but unique doesn't have to mean niche, and I think we need to move away from that. No... *sigh*... not move away from what makes UO unique. Move away from the definition that UO is unique=niche and you can't play this x game if you're y.
The only thing I'd like to see brought back is the community that it had before...and I don't mean that it has to be around a bank or smithy either. No, I don't know how to do that. Maybe a higher population would work, maybe not.
Before, in the "golden age" of UO, we had pkrs to help keep the community together... imo. Either you went out in a group or what have you, or you risked getting pk'd.
You trusted that smithy to give you back your armor, you trusted that when you ran to WBB from a dungeon or graveyard, someone would be there to help you get to your corpse (actually this still works if you forget to auto-insure
).But that doesn't mean that those things are all there is to create a community-type feel around. I still don't see any reason why I can't have my items AND my feeling of camaraderie with the rest of the UO player-base.
And back then, I didn't notice that the devs had a whole lot to do with that feeling. Either you trusted people or you didn't, either you were trustworthy or you weren't (or your characters were/n't).
Hopefully, at some point in time, we can have our cake and eat it too (and make the people who play those "other games" say ....wth was that! where did UO just come from?! I thought it died in 2000! Omg.. why have I been playing this game, when I could have been on UO?)
I guess for me, classic shard isn't so much about the items and how they worked, the gumps and whatever else. It was more about how I felt when I was playing then, and I'm 99% positive that we can have that again along with what the game has turned into now, with the items, gumps and whatever else.
K
Kiminality
Guest
One of the primary benefits cited for free PvP is the ability to perpetrate "player justice" on scripters and the like.
Any PvP switch would give the scripters and such a safe haven, thereby trivialising the efforts of genuine players, which is counter to one of the classic shard ideas.
People need to define more specifically of "classic shard".
Lets talk about housing first. Pre-AOS: you mean you actually want your house to have keys again - a key without insurance, and therefore will be vulnerable to be stolen SOMEHOW (including griefing) and have your house LOOTED?
"Classic shard" also = griefing paradise.
People dont play this game to be griefed.
So, if you can overcome the griefing that occurred in the "good o' times", people might be willing to start think about supporting classic shard.
Lets talk about housing first. Pre-AOS: you mean you actually want your house to have keys again - a key without insurance, and therefore will be vulnerable to be stolen SOMEHOW (including griefing) and have your house LOOTED?
"Classic shard" also = griefing paradise.
People dont play this game to be griefed.
So, if you can overcome the griefing that occurred in the "good o' times", people might be willing to start think about supporting classic shard.
So you're in favor of unbalanced PvP...ok.
But no one is saying keep the item based system we have now for a classic shard, so I have no idea what you're talking about. The "fix" for archery was not the addition of the whole new item based system, that system only made it stronger, particularly with swing speed. The fix for archery was not having to stay still for the arrow to hit the target!
Classic shard from my perspective is:
One facet, Britannia and maybe T2A as well.
No more resists the way we have it now.
No insurance.
Weapon/Armor system the way it was prior to AOS, such as vanq, power, indestructible, etc.
No more LRC, etc.
No powerscrolls, caps limited to 100.
Order/Chaos returned.
Keeping the way the skills work now should be alright. Such as no longer having to stay still after shooting for archery is a nice change.
One facet, Britannia and maybe T2A as well.
No more resists the way we have it now.
No insurance.
Weapon/Armor system the way it was prior to AOS, such as vanq, power, indestructible, etc.
No more LRC, etc.
No powerscrolls, caps limited to 100.
Order/Chaos returned.
Keeping the way the skills work now should be alright. Such as no longer having to stay still after shooting for archery is a nice change.
A
AesSedai
Guest
-
Classic
Classic
Exactly. Back then you equipped a weapon and some protection to cover your face and groin area before going in to battle with mobs or players.
L
Lord Onslaught
Guest
Spellplay vs spellplay is balanced.
Uninteruptable/unstopable mobility (Archery) vs interuptable/stop to cast (spellplay) is unbalanced.
So no, I'm in favour of balanced player skill based pvp. Stoping to shoot an automatic weapon isn't it.
M
Minky
Guest
I agree with the hypothesis of player justice, but put into the hands of the masses, player justice is just a new form of greifing.
You can see this throughout Human history. The mob mentality made it okay for Romans to cruicfy their "criminals", the mob mentality of the Dark Ages thought might was right, the mob mentality of today is .. well, I'll leave my political views aside. Point being, the devs can only give us tools to work with with the idea of what they want and we may find a different method to carry out the usage of those tools.
Remember when Oil Cloths were able to be cut down into 1 olive cloth?
-There *must* be a pvp switch for the game to strive, or there must be an alternative to it for it to flourish.
Here's an idea:
What do you think the majority of people would do if our stop-lights stopped working? Who would be safe and stop at them so they didn't get into a wreck, and who would keep driving past them because they were no longer turning red?
P
Punkte
Guest
No Factions! I would prefer Order/Chaos again.
Anything before AoS would make me happy!
K
Kiminality
Guest
I have mixed feelings.
Whether or not to have full PvP is a major design decision, that would greatly affect its appeal to players, since its removal was a major factor in the history of UO, and thus perceptions of "classic". The other major factor being AoS.
I think that most could agree that "classic" would be largely pre-AoS (taking into account the inevitable need for an emulated, or hybrid, ruleset).
I don't think there's an easy answer for which side of Ren to go.
Allowing a safe haven from PvP would hasten things in a simplified analogue of current production UO - people would use the safety to grind the game, legally and otherwise, and the emphasis would end right up at the endgame.
Maintaining free PvP would likely marginalise the shard's appeal, somewhat like Siege. As people left Fel for the safety of Trammel, people would likely just choose production over the PvP shard (as they do with Siege).
It would be awesome if it could work, though.
R
Reximus
Guest
Noone used pets when I pvp'd pre-aos, pets used to follow other peoples gates, so within no time someone would cast gate, stand behind the gate and attack the pet, the pet would go in the gate and then you'd dispell field, no auto stable on logout etc existed, if the person didnt know where you gated to, the pet was gone.
I used to derive much enjoyment out of said activity.
E
Evlar
Guest
I suppose when considering any "classic" shard, many will also consider "what could have been". Poorly implemented changes, opportunities missed, they're all factors in making UO what it is today.
One such thing would be housing space. Personally, I feel that this was an opportunity missed. Instead of creating the abortion of housing space that is Malas, they could have created space next to towns, with some form of layout, roads, order. Granted, they were almost there with the design of Luna and Makoto, but they created so little space next to these towns, that it created a "premium" for space.
They could on the other hand, have made "plots" at 18x18 tiles (or smaller if more suitable), surrounded by roads or pathways, either close or next to existing and newer towns/cities. For example, to the east of Royal City in Ter Mur, there's an area with spaces along these lines, though it's very small.
Players themselves have tried to do such (see Umbra Road on Europa shard as an example), but something along the lines of designed streets and roads would have been better for the actual towns.
One such thing would be housing space. Personally, I feel that this was an opportunity missed. Instead of creating the abortion of housing space that is Malas, they could have created space next to towns, with some form of layout, roads, order. Granted, they were almost there with the design of Luna and Makoto, but they created so little space next to these towns, that it created a "premium" for space.
They could on the other hand, have made "plots" at 18x18 tiles (or smaller if more suitable), surrounded by roads or pathways, either close or next to existing and newer towns/cities. For example, to the east of Royal City in Ter Mur, there's an area with spaces along these lines, though it's very small.
Players themselves have tried to do such (see Umbra Road on Europa shard as an example), but something along the lines of designed streets and roads would have been better for the actual towns.
T
theBaddestMug
Guest
If you want to see a good example of a classic shard check out what the guys over at UOGamers have created, by far the biggest and longest running free shard. While its not a 100% classic ruleset they have taken the best of everything and created something amazing.
E
Edmond_Dantes
Guest
I really don't understand why all of you people who are opposed against a classic shard are so deeply offended that someone would even mention the idea. I think it is a great idea, and would make a lot of people very happy, even if we can't agree on which publish, there are some things everyone seems to want:
NO TRAMMEL
NO UBER-GOD ITEMS
is that too much to ask for, as a paying customer?
NO TRAMMEL
NO UBER-GOD ITEMS
is that too much to ask for, as a paying customer?
M
Minky
Guest
While true, there needs to be a check put in-place. Free PvP here means PK. If people want to indulge their PvP-ness, there are methods - Guild Wars, Order/Chaos or Factions. Under the idea of a PvP switch, those that want to PvP will. Sure, you'll loose the griefing aspect of it, but it's a win-win-lose situation.
PvP'rs win.
Non-PvP'rs win.
Griefers lose.
I say griefing because under the old Britannia system, there was no escape. Players were forced into PvP.
I just thought of another con that's really more of a pro due to the Lore of UO, the old Moongate system.
While I would miss instant travel to my desired destination, the old moongate system really offered an immersiveness that no other game has.
M
Minky
Guest
Everyone? No.
Majority? No.
Few to Several? Yes.
Trammel would not even exist were this the case.
E
Edmond_Dantes
Guest
Maybe you could suggest the making of a trammel only shard where everyone bank-sits and farms shiny pixels all day.
M
Minky
Guest
I'm only pointing out that as it failed before, a Felucca rule-set will fail again.
There are options to PvP without forcing others into it. Based on your post I assume you're a red that enjoys free-form PvP?
I assure you that were the switch the only method to PvP, you would not be the only one in that guild war, order/chaos, or faction system.
I don't see what the draw is to fight others who do no opt-in to PvP vs fighting those that truly want to.
*note: do not read this as an attack.
There are options to PvP without forcing others into it. Based on your post I assume you're a red that enjoys free-form PvP?
I assure you that were the switch the only method to PvP, you would not be the only one in that guild war, order/chaos, or faction system.
I don't see what the draw is to fight others who do no opt-in to PvP vs fighting those that truly want to.
*note: do not read this as an attack.
E
Evlar
Guest
Something that I would like to point to, as perhaps a gauge of real interest in the potential of a classic shard...
This image is taken from the server status screen of a "free" UO server, two important areas are those highlighted in red.
Now, don't those figures make interesting reading?
881 people actually playing the game, at the time I took the screenshot (5pm central European time, today, 14th Feb). This is a damn sight more than we see active at any one time on many "official" servers.
160,723 players... those registered with this free shard. Although likely there's a very large quantity that have only registered to take a look and never returned, it does definately indicate interest!
Granted, you could make whatever you will of such figures, but it does show the potential and what's possible with the concept of an official EA/Mythic "classic" shard.
For me, it's about having the option available, as a current subscriber. I believe there's enough former players out there who would consider a return if such an option was available.
I also play on some of the free servers. The telling thing for me is that I'm enjoying them more than the official ones. That's not because they're free either.
This image is taken from the server status screen of a "free" UO server, two important areas are those highlighted in red.
Now, don't those figures make interesting reading?
881 people actually playing the game, at the time I took the screenshot (5pm central European time, today, 14th Feb). This is a damn sight more than we see active at any one time on many "official" servers.
160,723 players... those registered with this free shard. Although likely there's a very large quantity that have only registered to take a look and never returned, it does definately indicate interest!
Granted, you could make whatever you will of such figures, but it does show the potential and what's possible with the concept of an official EA/Mythic "classic" shard.
For me, it's about having the option available, as a current subscriber. I believe there's enough former players out there who would consider a return if such an option was available.
I also play on some of the free servers. The telling thing for me is that I'm enjoying them more than the official ones. That's not because they're free either.
Obviously if there is only one choice for a skill for PvP it will be balanced...but that's just a lazy way of balancing. Hell PvP could be balanced right now if they removed all but one combat skill from PvP! But that would remove the point of UO being a freedom of choice of skills.
But if you can't find a way to PvP as a mage against a non-mage, you wouldn't have survived pre-aos. You wont survive a classic shard. Find it hard to believe you survive now. If it's real-skill then you shouldn't worry about it since you should have learned how to cast between getting hit, lol.
I see real PvPers who know how to do that and they always send the non-mages running.
M
Minky
Guest
I agree with this from my time spent on some free servers.Something that I would like to point to, as perhaps a gauge of real interest in the potential of a classic shard...
This image is taken from the server status screen of a "free" UO server, two important areas are those highlighted in red.
Now, don't those figures make interesting reading?
881 people actually playing the game, at the time I took the screenshot (5pm central European time, today, 14th Feb). This is a damn sight more than we see active at any one time on many "official" servers.
160,723 players... those registered with this free shard. Although likely there's a very large quantity that have only registered to take a look and never returned, it does definately indicate interest!
Granted, you could make whatever you will of such figures, but it does show the potential and what's possible with the concept of an official EA/Mythic "classic" shard.
For me, it's about having the option available, as a current subscriber. I believe there's enough former players out there who would consider a return if such an option was available.
I also play on some of the free servers. The telling thing for me is that I'm enjoying them more than the official ones. That's not because they're free either.
I strongly disagree, UO did not need saving, far from it.
To prevent this derailing the thread that is all I will say on it, we can agree to disagree
E
Evlar
Guest
That which I've made bold I completely agree with. For me, there was never a need to create Felucca in the first place.
Far better would have been a system in which those who wish to PvP, have to sign up to a faction or an order/chaos system. PvP is therefore not forced on anyone, those who don't want to PvP can't be attacked, they in turn cannot attack another player.
F
five oclock
Guest
Finally they are considering a classic shard. Thank the Gods..Then people will finally shut up.
Plz make it Pre AOS or Pub 16. For those two Updates are the most complained about.
Life was so much better before this. The bugs were not as bad before that.
It will come out. People will play it for a month or so. get tired. then jump on there normal toons and complaing about the classic shard.
BUT hey with these new devs or who ever is in charge of running UO nowadays. At least they are listening and not saying No No No No. So I do have to give ya kudos for that
Plz make it Pre AOS or Pub 16. For those two Updates are the most complained about.
Life was so much better before this. The bugs were not as bad before that.
It will come out. People will play it for a month or so. get tired. then jump on there normal toons and complaing about the classic shard.
BUT hey with these new devs or who ever is in charge of running UO nowadays. At least they are listening and not saying No No No No. So I do have to give ya kudos for that
M
Minky
Guest
Generic Reply to those that still believe in a Felucca-only rule-set:
Let's look at WoW. They have Seige Perilous servers (PvP) and Trammel servers (PvE), they also have unenforced RP servers (doesn't matter here).
That game is amazingly successful, and I believe part of that success is the fact that they realized some players enjoy World-PvP, while others don't. For those that do enjoy PvP, they've not only given opt-in servers (says right on the server list), but on all servers, they have PvP opt-in areas (Battle Grounds, Wntergrasp).
Let's look at WoW. They have Seige Perilous servers (PvP) and Trammel servers (PvE), they also have unenforced RP servers (doesn't matter here).
That game is amazingly successful, and I believe part of that success is the fact that they realized some players enjoy World-PvP, while others don't. For those that do enjoy PvP, they've not only given opt-in servers (says right on the server list), but on all servers, they have PvP opt-in areas (Battle Grounds, Wntergrasp).
...
That's the thing though, people WON'T shut up. They proved an earlier point just by reading this thread in that just the concept of a "classic shard" prompts about 20,000 different "ideas" on what constitutes a "classic shard".
If/when they actually put one up, it's not that hard of a bet to make to say that people will be complaining about some aspect of the shard being "wrong", or that it's "almost there, but can we do X?" or some other complaint ("{Template} is too powerful, please nerf them!").
Whatever a classic shard will do, one thing it WON'T do is shut people up.
That's the thing though, people WON'T shut up. They proved an earlier point just by reading this thread in that just the concept of a "classic shard" prompts about 20,000 different "ideas" on what constitutes a "classic shard".
If/when they actually put one up, it's not that hard of a bet to make to say that people will be complaining about some aspect of the shard being "wrong", or that it's "almost there, but can we do X?" or some other complaint ("{Template} is too powerful, please nerf them!").
Whatever a classic shard will do, one thing it WON'T do is shut people up.
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