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[Feedback] Combat Game Balance

Squeax

Visitor
Please stop implying that Sampire is an actually a template. I have one so I can put in my 2 cents...
Sampire is a template put together by people and not the dev team on how the game is ment to play. Hence the balance is towards CORE skills and not a mash of ALL of them in one leech machine. Sucks to see that your money making grind boss may not be soloed anymore because of the changes. But this is about balance skills and not making the best template to solo peerless or be the best in pvp. It's to even it out.
 
T

Tm84

Guest
Poisoning on a mage should increase the chance of actually hitting opponet. Reduce the chance of being resisted. Especially if you are going to allow dexers to cure and heal with one bandaid. 100 points for poison on a mage is alot to cram into a template.
Uh, No. casters are already over power as is being to cast on the move or little to 1/4 sec stop on casting. Let's not give them the power to have DOT damage on top of it and beable to spam poison like it's cool. You would have to be nerf in cast time to make it even remotely fair. Casters can cure and heal within 2 secs why a dexer can't do the same under the same time?

I pvp with a dexer and a mage so i see what's going on and what's more powerful.
 

Klapauc

Sage
Stratics Veteran
I dont get all that sampire bashing here. This is a pvm template, everyone can build one today thanks to imbuing , soulstones and 5-7 character slots.
There is nothing to worry here, everyone can do the same.

Apart from that, the reason that peerless and champs are soloed now frequently has nothing to do with sampires or vampiric embrace or chivalry in general.
The true reason is, most of those bosses came into game before we had imbuing. Back then, not many people had suits exactly matching their template. Characters are much stronger now in general, and even more stronger if the player behind that character knows how to play.

A lot of peerless / champ quality mobs can be soloed on a non necro melee if you are a dedicated player. And for a lot of other templates to.

Sampire just makes it easier for people that got not much time, are casual players or enjoy other things more, to get access to the high end pvm content.

A lot of people have fun with those chars, others seem to not like that and cry foul.

A better solution would be to give traditional melee/parry/heal/chiv templates a serious buff. To bump them to the same level the bushido/necro users are.
The benefits from 120 chiv are a good start, but it should go further. Give bandage healing another buff in pvm, something with poison immunity would be nice if you are at least gm healing/anat.
Make something similar to feint available if one has a shield equipped.
Give paladins at 115 or higher the ability to dodge a bit of spelldamage now and then.
Design these abilities so that you cannot stack them on top of the bushido/parry abilities.

I know that this would lead to more powerful templates, but i always love to see some more variety on the battlefield.

And for all that think a nerf to the necro forms is a solution. IT IS NOT.
There is that small spell called curse weapon that requires 40 necromancy and some spirit speak, very little mana and pig iron in backpack.

Personally i rather see some more people that look like warriors running around then that metric ton of colossus and energy vortexes that take absolutly no player skill to use.
Or those armies of greater dragons, but at least there are tamers now and then that are good and you can watch and learn.
 

Squeax

Visitor
The "It's balanced because anyone can make one!" argument is always the last bastion of someone who knows something is grusomely overpowered but likes it that way. Ditto with the herfblerf about casual players.
 

Klapauc

Sage
Stratics Veteran
The "It's balanced because anyone can make one!" argument is always the last bastion of someone who knows something is grusomely overpowered but likes it that way. Ditto with the herfblerf about casual players.
To me it looks like you are on a personal crusade against something. You cannot even exactly explain what is it you want to see nerfed, and i tried to explain why it wouldnt change much if they did nerf that template.
Yet the outcome will be the same, that is, some players will find ways to farm the spawns/bosses. As this stuff isnt really so high end as you might think, in the end it comes down to "know your enemy".
And because it is the way it is and our devs will not buff these encounters, there can as well be a relativly easy method.
If you want, you can always try the hard , unusual and more funny methods, i do that alot myself, there is nothing that stops you from doing that.
 

Saint of Killers

Sage
Stratics Veteran
I've played ninja mage plenty and it would be pretty close to impossible to fit 40 SDI on a ninja mage who needs HCI/DCI also. Just getting the 15 is hard enough. Only reason I don't want it to be included is because of ninja forms for dismounters. You can't cast in form anyway so there's no harm done.
Heh, oh spoony. You want that 40 sdi & get out of jail free card still eh (ostard/llama form FTW baby)!

I want my cake, and I wanna eat it. :p
 

Saint of Killers

Sage
Stratics Veteran
I'm actually fine with the changes, and the degree to which it impacts me is actually fairly minimal. I have 3 characters, might have a 4th soon. Of my 3, 2 already have more Chivalry than is typical. One will require a minor adjustment, one will not. The 3rd will probably return to being a full Samurai with no Chivalry at all.

However, while I am fine with the changes, I want to point out to the team that if they expect this to have a major impact on the power of the Sampire class? (And that if is far from clear.) It won't. Because Chivalry never has mattered all that much to the class. They will, I suppose, have to adjust some. (At least those who don't already incorporate 40 LMC will.)

Overall, a good thing.

And, as stated, they (the team) may not agree with you at all; they may merely think that, as a matter of policy, skill should always matter as much as or more than some external, non-skill attribute, such as Karma. This can be argued in and of itself, apart from arguing that Chivalry is the driver of the imbalances.

-Galen's player
I love a lot of the changes also, but let's be honest Galen, your pvper is a 4/6 melee holy lighter that got stronger (not weaker) from these proposed changes.
 

Squeax

Visitor
To me it looks like you are on a personal crusade against something. You cannot even exactly explain what is it you want to see nerfed,
Excuse me? I believe I've explained in great detail that I want to see Necromancy forms nerfed in such a way as not to reduce the effectiveness of the skill when taken separate from Chivalry. Namely by instituting a continuous karma drain for forms, a "garlic-like" burn damage effect for Chivalry spells cast while in forms, and possibly a requirement for Spirit Speak in order to derive the full benefit of forms.

This would take the overpowered and thematically-bizzare standard Sampire template, a template that currently rules melee PVM so utterly as to have rendered all other melee templates irrelevant, and compel it to diversify into Necro/Bushido "Chivless Sampires" and Chivalry/Bushido Paladins.

While the former would still have substantial life leech due to Curse Weapon, it's damage output would be reduced, thus also reducing it's ability to leech mana. Additionally, it wouldn't be able to spam Divine Fury, meaning stamina would matter more than it does now. The latter Chiv/Bush template would maintain current high levels of damage, but without being able to easily convert that damage directly into health via life leech.

No, this would not instantly cure all balance problems in UO, but it would cure one of them. When players are not only able to pile Bushido AND Necromancy AND Chivalry all onto one template, but doing so becomes the only remotely sensible choice for PVM melee, something is out of whack. When that template is able to solo bosses, something is out of whack.

When every Paladin has to be a Necromancer or basically get laughed off as an underpowered "LOL RP" character, stuff is just plain not working like it's supposed to.

Please don't tell me I don't know what I want nerfed or why. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

And I would LOVE to see Logrus or anyone else comment on this, if only to tell me "No man you are wrong for reasons XYZ!"
 

Klapauc

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Excuse me? ...

Lets assume i cannot use vampiric embrace together witch chivalry anymore.
That leaves several options:

1) Drop chiv, use skillpoints on anatomy , tactics , parry or resist.
2) Don't use a form, but do 40 necro/ 60 spirit speak for curse weapon. Can keep chivalry then.
3) No chiv, 40 necro/60 spirit speak for peerless without slayer, you get more mana back, the damage you miss from eoo can be made up by spamming armor ignore, doublestrike or crushing blow.

Chivalry is generaly not needed in wraith form as the additional mana leech allows chaining of high damage weapon specials.

The only 2 widely used sampire weapons where stamina can be an issue and you need divine fury are double axe and heavy ornate axe. All others are either 1-handed or can be made fast enough with ssi so that stam is never really a problem. My fencer sampire uses maybe 10 npc refresh pots at a spawn, and divine fury only if i hit the wrong hotkey.

Its also not true that all other pvm templates are irrelevant. There is a good amount of high end stuff around where
A) you are better of if you not use vampiric embrace or curse weapon
B) it doesnt really matter
C) healing is absolutly required
D) ninjitsu beats bushido/parry

The only real problem with sampires is there power at champ spawns and in doom, and removing chivalry would not do anything to change that.

The only opinion i share with you is that necro/chivalry is role play wise an "odd" combination, but i do not really care about that because imho uo has absolutly nothing to do with ultima anymore.

I also do not get why people would laugh about someone who is pure paladin. You either know wrong people or play wrong server. Its true that some particular old school skill combination doesnt works so well atm, but thats a basic problem of all mmorpg's that you need to adapt.

I somehow think that you are facing a more general problem here, and that is that we got players that know game mechanics pretty well, and know how to use and DO USE every item in game and game mechanics to their advantage. And others that dont know much and use only 30% of the potential their char has.
 

Squeax

Visitor
Oh crap dude, you just gave me a much better idea. Call the concept "Opposed Skills" or something like that.

Effective Chivalry = Actual Chivalry - Actual Necromancy
Effective Necromancy = Actual Necromancy - Actual Chivalry
Effective Bushido = Actual Bushido - Actual Ninjitsu
Effective Ninjitsu = Actual Ninjitsu - Actual Bushido

Skip the Spirit Speak changes, skip the Vampiric Embrace changes, skip everything. You wanna have 100 Chiv and 40 Necro, smartypants? Now you're casting like you have 60 Chiv and 0 Necro.

This is really much more elegant and ought to be trivial to code. Thanks for pushing me to think of it.
 

NuSair

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Sorry but the PVM nerfs are long over do...No one person should be able to solo the games hardest monsters...The problem is, if they can beat the most powerful monsters then they can kill everything else to and there is no risk/reward in that.

It will also bring less gold into the game, And that's a good thing right now.
Going to repeat what I (and others) said earlier- people have been soloing the 'hardest' monsters WAY before sampires came along.

And nothing these changes do affect those.
 

Klapauc

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Oh crap dude, you just gave me a much better idea. Call the concept "Opposed Skills" or something like that.

Effective Chivalry = Actual Chivalry - Actual Necromancy
Effective Necromancy = Actual Necromancy - Actual Chivalry
Effective Bushido = Actual Bushido - Actual Ninjitsu
Effective Ninjitsu = Actual Ninjitsu - Actual Bushido

Skip the Spirit Speak changes, skip the Vampiric Embrace changes, skip everything. You wanna have 100 Chiv and 40 Necro, smartypants? Now you're casting like you have 60 Chiv and 0 Necro.

This is really much more elegant and ought to be trivial to code. Thanks for pushing me to think of it.
You just need to explain what is wrong with bushido and ninjitsu on the same char.
 

NuSair

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
In brief, sampires can solo monsters in the game that were quite specifically never intended to be soloed. And, according to their posts, they can do it somewhat easily. I, for one, find it depressing to see that they have become synonymous with PvM even though they are far from the only viable PvM class.

I have every reason, however, to think that sampires will adjust to this and will merely have to work a little harder.

And that's not a bad thing.

-Galen's player
Sampires work harder? No... not really. Not with these changes anyway.

I feel like I am watching the DCI trying to fix a deck in Magic the Gathering oh so long ago. For those that don't know, Magic: The Gathering is a collectable card game. They have tournaments and such where players compete to build the best deck. There are times when they would make a card/combination of cards that were so over powered they would create an imbalance in the environment.

To correct this, in general, you ban the card from being played in decks.

Well, a number of years ago, what they would do instead of addressing the problem card(s), is restrict (limit to one, you normally can have 4) a card or ban a card that made up some part of the deck, without going after the true problem of the deck. Because that card was rare and helped drive product sales. Eventually, it was proven that the problem card didn't need the fluff cards and the problem card was (after months and months and months) banned.

It seems to me, this is the same issue. Instead of dealing with the true problem (this is assuming that these changes were targeted at sampires) which is necromancy (specifically the spells Wraith Form and Vampiric Embrace), they are tinkering with the fluff- Bushido and Chivalry.

Well, I am here to let the Devs in on a secret, since it is quite evident that they don't know how and never have played a sampire (this again assumes that these changes were targeted at sampires).... a sampire needs neither bushido nor chivalry to operate.

With the current set up of slayers, you can reach the damage cap without the use of Honor or EOO. Sure, certain changes will/can limit some of the choices of weapon and the lack of a spell or two will cause changes of playstyle, but until Wraith Form/Vampiric Embrace are changed/eliminated, the sampire/wammy will be a viable template that can solo most things in the game.

Then again, people seem to forget that there were temps (necro/bard, tamers) that were solo'ing things BEFORE the sampire became the flavor of the year. What about those? (I've solo'ed champ spawns and peerless on my necro/bard, tamer, swords paladin (chiv/bushido) and archer).

If these changes were not aimed at nerfing sampires, then I apologize for the tone of this post. IF the changes were aimed at nerfing sampires, then I suggest the devs spend sometime actually PLAYING one. I'll be happy to show them how if they need help or if they want to contact me concerning sampires.... you know where to find me.
 

NuSair

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Something else just struck me....

Concerate Weapon and Lightning Strike...... similar type spells. CW effects the damage type, LS effects HCI (in general).

They alter CW (presumed) based off the generally accepted template of sampires.

Yet, they leave a similar spell, Lightning Strike.... alone. Again, guessing because the accepted template of a sampire uses 120 Bushido.
 

NuSair

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
This would take the overpowered and thematically-bizzare standard Sampire template, a template that currently rules melee PVM so utterly as to have rendered all other melee templates irrelevant, and compel it to diversify into Necro/Bushido "Chivless Sampires" and Chivalry/Bushido Paladins.
1. A wraith thrower (wammy) can out damage a sampire. Yes, I know what I am talking about, I've played (and currently play) both.

2. A wraith mage with a slayer spell book can do quite a bit of damage itself, rarely running out of mana.
(sensing a theme here)
The problem is, is that at least the sampire is in melee combat with what it is fighting.

People keep saying that they (the UO devs) don't want this to be a solo game and want people to play and do things together.

I completely and categorically disagree. And here is why.

Without vampiric embrace/cursed weapon a character cannot melee most peerless level creatures alone. If there was a character acting as a cleric/healer, it's possible, but that character has to do nothing but spam heals. Which in UO means you will get no loot. Unless you are playing with people you really trust a lot so the loot will be rolled on/split.

So, until they fix it so that people in the same party can get separate loot coffins, to say they want people to play together is a huge heaping pile of bull****.

It will go back to greater dragons tanking everything, a tamer sitting back and healing the dragon, while everyone else sits back and uses ranged attacks on the creature. Joy.

Therefore making melee skills in those environments near useless, and to me, that is unacceptable.
 

Klapauc

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Something else just struck me....

Concerate Weapon and Lightning Strike...... similar type spells. CW effects the damage type, LS effects HCI (in general).

They alter CW (presumed) based off the generally accepted template of sampires.

Yet, they leave a similar spell, Lightning Strike.... alone. Again, guessing because the accepted template of a sampire uses 120 Bushido.
I do not really get the reason for increasing mana cost on lightning strike. My best guess is because of bushido archers/throwers. They tend to get little damage at all and deal out a lot. But leech only half of the mana from ranged weapons. Will hurt them a bit. At least my thrower on siege will not like it, as ls was a nice replacement for real hci at a low mana cost.

Chivalry changes are just made so that you have to invest a more reasonable amount of skillpoints and you get a bonus at higher levels. I do not think its directed at any specific template, it just hurts everyone a bit. Nice bonus for people that can put 120 on a char, but i still think the points are spent better somewhere else. Pvm melee chars are always short on skillpoints because they tend to get hit alot and need proper defence and healing.
 

GalenKnighthawke

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
I love a lot of the changes also, but let's be honest Galen, your pvper is a 4/6 melee holy lighter that got stronger (not weaker) from these proposed changes.
*crosses fingers*

I sure hope you're right, Saint....As someone who almost always fights alone I sure need all the help I can get.

We shall see.

At minimum I will need a little more Chivalry though.

-Galen's player
 

GalenKnighthawke

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Every single change I've proposed has related to Necromancy. Nowhere will you have seen me me campaigning to nerf Chivalry for people who pursue the skill to >=100 or anyone besides CNB Sampires.
It is not my fault if you do not wish to admit that you clearly think Chivalry is the driver of the imbalances; little that you have said makes much sense in most other contexts.

That's because the entire imbalance is driven by excess template slack, and out of the three skills we're discussing, the only one a CNB Sampire might actually take up to 120 and pick up the secondary skill for is Bushido. None of the three are particularly out of line as skills in their own right.
I have never heard the term CNB Sampire before, I can only assume it means Chivalry, Necromancy, and Bushido.

Indeed, none of them are out of line in their own rights; yet the only one being targeted for a significant nerf (and I'm not really sure it's a nerf so much as an alteration, but I can't think of another term for it at the moment and "alteration" doesn't fit the bill either) is Chivalry.

I mean what precisely do you propose? Go ahead, lay some game design theory on me and explain the results of your proposal.
I have never claimed to have a proposal. I am musing out loud, deliberating.

Discussions

This next statement is very curious:

Having Chiv spells burn Necro forms is an elegant, thematically-sound means of nerfing full CNB Sampires (and no one else) that re-uses an effect (garlic burn) which is already a part of Necromancy.
Because I have openly said your proposal is interesting, and have constructed an argument in favor of it.

I liken it to the difference between Vlad Tepes and the fictional character Dracula whom is partially based on the historical character Vlad Tepes. Vlad was surely a Paladin in some sense, though necromantric in some sense as well.

However, Dracula the fictional character, a vampire, was not in any sense a Paladin.

What I specifically like about your proposal is that it still maintains the Necromancer/Paladin combination, which I find defensible, but the Paladin in Vampire form thing, which I find less defensible, is nerfed at minimum.

Let's see you come up with something better than doesn't just hamfistedly wreck one skill in favor of another.
Again, I never said I had a proposal, I am musing out loud, deliberating. It's you who keeps trying to turn this into some kind of fight.

It's not, save perhaps in your own mind.

Oh yeah, and a little protip: Anything which terminates or substantially diminishes melee boss-soloing is a Pefection nerf by default, since only one person in a given encounter gets to use it, and even non-Bushido characters can ruin it by doing damage before it's been invoked.
This is an odd argument. Perfection is a means of solo boss fighting. So nerfing the solo boss fight through other means nerfs another means, Perfection, somehow?

Sorry, but no....Your proposal is defensible; you should probably stick with that.

-Galen's player
 

Squeax

Visitor
It is not my fault if you do not wish to admit that you clearly think Chivalry is the driver of the imbalances; little that you have said makes much sense in most other contexts.
And precisely why do you give a damn when you agree that Sampires need a nerf and nothing I'm proposing affects anything but those? Hmm?

Cluebat time: It wouldn't really matter from a strictly mechanical standpoint whether you isolated Necromancy from Chivalry or from Bushido, except for the fact that the former makes infinitely more thematic sense.

I have never claimed to have a proposal. I am musing out loud, deliberating.
You're hurfblurfing whenever you think someone is looking at Chivalry crosseyed whether anyone's really talking about nerfing it or not.

I liken it to the difference between Vlad Tepes and the fictional character Dracula whom is partially based on the historical character Vlad Tepes. Vlad was surely a Paladin in some sense, though necromantric in some sense as well.
I don't know where you're going with this or what you think "I'm so good that if I'm bad I lose my superpowers" fantasy paladins have in common with Vlad the freakin' Impaler.

Wait, this is about you trying to RP justify Necromancer Paladins even though those two things are pretty much directly contradictory and were even pitched as directly contradictory with AOS. Oh. Yeah Vlad the Impaler was just like a Paladin except for his sadistic murder of tens of thousands of people.

Man, Consecrate Weapon must have worn off like INSTANTLY with his karma.

This is an odd argument. Perfection is a means of solo boss fighting. So nerfing the solo boss fight through other means nerfs another means, Perfection, somehow?
Tell you what, we'll make it so that only one person can have EOO on any given target, and none can if anyone else hits it first. You'll be totally cool with that and not consider it a nerf at all when you have to start running with other people and going "Okay who gets to EOO today?" You won't care at all what you can or cannot solo under those circumstances.
 

Squeax

Visitor
Also, I just had to touch on this bit in particular.

3) No chiv, 40 necro/60 spirit speak for peerless without slayer, you get more mana back, the damage you miss from eoo can be made up by spamming armor ignore, doublestrike or crushing blow.
So 0 Chiv, 40 Necro, and 60 Spirit Speak would be just as good as 70 Chiv and 99 Necro are now. Hmm. Gee. So either everyone is currently wasting 69 points on their Sampire templates for no good reason, or I'm seeing pretty much every possible desperate reason that nerfing Sampires would be pointless being thrown at the wall.
 

GalenKnighthawke

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Honestly, skrag, I couldn't follow this post, save for the paladin and Vlad the Impaler thing....Ask anyone from Romania why Vlad Tepes could be considered a Paladin.

Apart from this....Ummm....Sorry, I guess? Couldn't follow it. Never heard of the expression "hurfblurfing" until now, or "cluebat." Both come up in Google so I guess you didn't make them up but.....

*shrugs*

I don't think we disagree on all that much here, but...If you're going to let the discussion get to you that much?

*shrugs*

-Galen's player


And precisely why do you give a damn when you agree that Sampires need a nerf and nothing I'm proposing affects anything but those? Hmm?

Cluebat time: It wouldn't really matter from a strictly mechanical standpoint whether you isolated Necromancy from Chivalry or from Bushido, except for the fact that the former makes infinitely more thematic sense.



You're hurfblurfing whenever you think someone is looking at Chivalry crosseyed whether anyone's really talking about nerfing it or not.



I don't know where you're going with this or what you think "I'm so good that if I'm bad I lose my superpowers" fantasy paladins have in common with Vlad the freakin' Impaler.

Wait, this is about you trying to RP justify Necromancer Paladins even though those two things are pretty much directly contradictory and were even pitched as directly contradictory with AOS. Oh. Yeah Vlad the Impaler was just like a Paladin except for his sadistic murder of tens of thousands of people.

Man, Consecrate Weapon must have worn off like INSTANTLY with his karma.



Tell you what, we'll make it so that only one person can have EOO on any given target, and none can if anyone else hits it first. You'll be totally cool with that and not consider it a nerf at all when you have to start running with other people and going "Okay who gets to EOO today?" You won't care at all what you can or cannot solo under those circumstances.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Game Balance Changes

SPECIAL MOVES:
Lightning Strike
Mana Cost raised from 5 to 10.
Ehhh. So let me get this straight. At 120 Bushido, we can use 10 Mana and have a 20% chance to deal a 35 damage hit in PvP, or we can spend 20 Mana, and get a guaranteed 35 damage hit? This is before LMC of course, which means 6/12 Mana respectively. Sounds like AI is now the way to go for reliable damage.

If you're gonna change Chiv that much, at least make it to where it counts towards Special Move Mana Discount.

With the changes to Consecrate Weapon as well, they should at least make it possible to imbue Damage Types on Weapons, like 100% Fire or such.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
50 skill points of chiv can easily negate 240 of a necro currently. That is ridiculously unfair.
20 skillpoints in Necro (Or even just Human JoAT) can negate 120.0 points in Resist with Evil Omen. Baseline, Evil Omen requires 20.0 Necromancy, 11 Mana, 1 second to cast. That's 7 Mana with 40% LMC, and 0.5 secs to cast with 2 FC. My oldschool Nox/Scribe Mage (120 Magery/120 Eval/GM Med/GM Resist/GM Wrest/GM Inscrip/80 Poison) can cast a full power Evil Omen with just his Human JoAT for a unresistable Lethal Poison. If i really want to cast it reliably, all i have to do is put on my +15 Necro/15% DCI/FC 1/FCR 3 Ring/Bracelet.
 

Klapauc

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Also, I just had to touch on this bit in particular.

3) No chiv, 40 necro/60 spirit speak for peerless without slayer, you get more mana back, the damage you miss from eoo can be made up by spamming armor ignore, doublestrike or crushing blow.
So 0 Chiv, 40 Necro, and 60 Spirit Speak would be just as good as 70 Chiv and 99 Necro are now. Hmm. Gee. So either everyone is currently wasting 69 points on their Sampire templates for no good reason, or I'm seeing pretty much every possible desperate reason that nerfing Sampires would be pointless being thrown at the wall.
Just for your information, that variation is called a wammy. It is slightly harder to play then a sampire because you have to watch curse weapon and are on foot.
Sure sign that you do not really understand what you are talking about if you dont know that. You also seem to not want to understand anything that is against your prefabricated opinion, yet you start a campaign in several threads and insult people that express another opinion, or god beware, people that come with arguments at you.
 

Saint of Killers

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Sampires work harder? No... not really. Not with these changes anyway.

I feel like I am watching the DCI trying to fix a deck in Magic the Gathering oh so long ago. For those that don't know, Magic: The Gathering is a collectable card game. They have tournaments and such where players compete to build the best deck. There are times when they would make a card/combination of cards that were so over powered they would create an imbalance in the environment.

To correct this, in general, you ban the card from being played in decks.

Well, a number of years ago, what they would do instead of addressing the problem card(s), is restrict (limit to one, you normally can have 4) a card or ban a card that made up some part of the deck, without going after the true problem of the deck. Because that card was rare and helped drive product sales. Eventually, it was proven that the problem card didn't need the fluff cards and the problem card was (after months and months and months) banned.
Love the walk down memory lane since I was a hard core Magic player back in the day, but that's an incorrect statement "Because that card was rare and helped drive product sales".

Ivory tower, zuron orb, sol ring, balance were all cheap, yet unreal cards. Some of the higher end cards (moxes, black lotus etc) were also limited in decks, but they didn't phase them out due to being overpowered, they phased them out because they were no longer being printed and there were not enough around to feed Magic's ever growing population. Magic came out with brand new sets every 4 months, so wanted to keep people buying the new cards they made. Kind of like UO with game expansions and tokens. They needed to change the format of normal tournaments to recent card set releases to keep "Joe Noobie" who just started playing 3 months ago a reason to play.

I like the proposed changes. I also like sampires to not get a free ride anymore. Five mana (before lmc kicks in) for a lightning strike that crit hits for 250ish, life leech w/o ss, full benefit of all the good chiv spells at 70 skill, highest damage output per second on most monsters.

Come on. Ridiculous.
 

Saint of Killers

Sage
Stratics Veteran
*crosses fingers*

I sure hope you're right, Saint....As someone who almost always fights alone I sure need all the help I can get.

We shall see.

At minimum I will need a little more Chivalry though.

-Galen's player
Yeah you're rockin' either 100 or 105 chiv currently probably.

If these changes go through, I'll be building the same template for one of my pvpers. I won't be a fan of being blood oathed 95% of the time, so will enjoy the 4/6 remove curse.
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Love the walk down memory lane since I was a hard core Magic player back in the day, but that's an incorrect statement "Because that card was rare and helped drive product sales".

Ivory tower, zuron orb, sol ring, balance were all cheap, yet unreal cards. Some of the higher end cards (moxes, black lotus etc) were also limited in decks, but they didn't phase them out due to being overpowered, they phased them out because they were no longer being printed and there were not enough around to feed Magic's ever growing population. Magic came out with brand new sets every 4 months, so wanted to keep people buying the new cards they made. Kind of like UO with game expansions and tokens. They needed to change the format of normal tournaments to recent card set releases to keep "Joe Noobie" who just started playing 3 months ago a reason to play.

I like the proposed changes. I also like sampires to not get a free ride anymore. Five mana (before lmc kicks in) for a lightning strike that crit hits for 250ish, life leech w/o ss, full benefit of all the good chiv spells at 70 skill, highest damage output per second on most monsters.

Come on. Ridiculous.
First. I'm gunna get one of those men in black memory eraser things and use it on your MTG brain.

Second. I'm happy someone else actually likes the chiv change in a PVM sort of way.
 

NuSair

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Love the walk down memory lane since I was a hard core Magic player back in the day, but that's an incorrect statement "Because that card was rare and helped drive product sales".
And I was a judge/TO since Arabian Nights until like 3 years ago. For many years, I was really the only active Judge in the stage of Georgia.

Tolarian Academy is a prime example of what I am talking about.
 

NuSair

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I like the proposed changes. I also like sampires to not get a free ride anymore. Five mana (before lmc kicks in) for a lightning strike that crit hits for 250ish, life leech w/o ss, full benefit of all the good chiv spells at 70 skill, highest damage output per second on most monsters.

Come on. Ridiculous.
First, sampires are not THE highest damage output. It's time to put that rumor down. If you want to make that generalization, that belongs to a wammy thrower. Sampires can use swords, maces and fencing. Throwers are pretty much limited to Soul Glaives. There is only 1 commonly used sampire weapon that out damages it (Ornate Axe). And even then, the soul glaive has Armor Ignore, which makes it superior to the Ornate Axe.

Therefore wammy throwers are THE highest damaging.

Secondly, the mana increase isn't going to mean anything to sampires. Well, I'll take that back.... if the sampire isn't leaching mana from their weapon or isn't running resist and gets hit with several Mana Vampires....then it might matter.

I was hitting for over 200 with my ABC Archer long before Sampires became THE template. Guess we need to nerf that too?
 
T

Tinsil

Guest
Whammy throwers are stupidly powerful.. Just as or more than the sampire.
 

Saint of Killers

Sage
Stratics Veteran
First, sampires are not THE highest damage output. It's time to put that rumor down. If you want to make that generalization, that belongs to a wammy thrower. Sampires can use swords, maces and fencing. Throwers are pretty much limited to Soul Glaives. There is only 1 commonly used sampire weapon that out damages it (Ornate Axe). And even then, the soul glaive has Armor Ignore, which make is superior to the Ornate Axe.

Therefore wammy throwers are THE highest damaging.

Secondly, the mana increase isn't going to mean anything to sampires. Well, I'll take that back.... if the sampire isn't leaching mana from their weapon or isn't running resist and gets hit with several Mana Vampires....then it might matter.

I was hitting for over 200 with my ABC Archer long before Sampires became THE template. Guess we need to nerf that too?
Sammies/whammies...tomaaatoes/tomottoes. You're talking about the same template with a slight variation. lol

Oh, and yes, Tolarian Academy was stupidly broken. There were many cards that ended up being stupidly broken. Fortunately, Wizards had plenty of input from the professional base (and judges) that they would act on and attempt to remedy the situation, until the next one arose of course. By the way, I was also a pro tour player for many years, pro tour champion, and judge. I used to like it when Wizards would shake things up because it always meant new strategies would have to be used. So maybe that's why I'm all for change in UO.

I don't really care if they do or don't change chiv. I'd like to see it changed for the reasons I stated, but if it didn't get changed, no sweat off my back.
 

GalenKnighthawke

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Yeah you're rockin' either 100 or 105 chiv currently probably.

If these changes go through, I'll be building the same template for one of my pvpers. I won't be a fan of being blood oathed 95% of the time, so will enjoy the 4/6 remove curse.
4/6 Remove Curse is nice.

Galen's template is.....idiosyncratic.

Based around doing both PvP and PvM on the same character.

I recognize that this makes me not quite 100% at either.

Couple that with the fact that I don't consider myself to be a great player.

If you are right that Chivalry will be more powerful now then I have been reduced from 3 excuses for losing (Chiv is not the greatest skill; usually fighting alone; not a great player), to 2 excuses for losing.

Oh well.

-Galen's player
 
T

Tm84

Guest
i dont really think the dev's are trying to nerf Sampire's. I think what they are trying to do is to make each combat related skill able to win in a pvp match if you a pure X, you can win verse a pure Z. And after that it's really up to the player on what XYZ they want to put together. But then again you can be very powerful then a pure X if you mix it together correctly So how bout we just get back to the feed backs on the test and stop knocking a specific temp. And find out what actually makes another set of combo skills together over-powering or needs more power.
 
Z

Zev Vir'cyth

Guest
Well Well, Seems like every time mages can't rule with no competition, the rules change. That's why I went from a pally to a tamer. Now they are after them too. And I did make a Sampire just so I could fight the big stuff without sitting on the sidelines throwing sticks and sparks like the other sissies.
 
W

waldoalso

Guest
Poisoning:
A few tweaks to Poison and Poisoning Skill
Poisoning skill now grants a small measure of resistance to being poisoned.
When poison is cured by any means except potions, the target receives a temporary resistance which is similar to, but less effective than the natural resistance granted by the poisoning skill.

Spells:

* Poison (Magery): Players with greater than GM Poisoning and GM Magery will have a 10% chance to inflict lethal poison at distance of less than 3 tiles. Poison strength now reduces with range instead of dropping to 1 at ranges 3 or greater.

* Poison Strike (Necromancy) : Necromancers with greater than 60 poisoning skill will have a 3% to 9% chance (Scales with poison skill) to poison their target.
Will the archery special Serpent Arrow be effected by this change ?
 
W

waldoalso

Guest
CHIVALRY
The way chivalry and abilities work has been revised so that the effects, and durations now place more emphasis on skill level rather than just karma. In cases where Karma is evaluated, it will provide a modifier to the chivalry skill factor. This means that chivalry will provide a baseline for the power or duration of the effect and karma will either increase or decrease that baseline. In order to achieve the highest possible levels, both skill and karma will be required.

Can you give us a clue about the "scaling" here?
Will the effects of Chiv spells be roughly the same as they are now at what skill point?
Let us say I have invested in GM Chivalry and have high karma. Will EoO be at 1.5 x damage and go up from there with more skill? Will Divine Fury be close to a full stamina refresh at this point ? Will Remove Curse be very effective and not fail often at this point?
 

Alezi

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
here is what needs addresed if your going to nerf the apple timer..

mortal spamming..
spell plague spamming...
evil omen spamming..
blood oath spamming...


just for starters, LOL

this new tc idea is so bad.
1. Decreases healing received by 50-75%
2. Make Spell Plague's explosion damage proportional to the damage that triggered it (i.e if you trigger it with a magic arrow doing 7 damage spell plague won't do 20)
3. Trap Box / Resisting Spells
4. Resisting Spells

What prize did I win?
 

PaithanTheElf

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
20 skillpoints in Necro (Or even just Human JoAT) can negate 120.0 points in Resist with Evil Omen. Baseline, Evil Omen requires 20.0 Necromancy, 11 Mana, 1 second to cast. That's 7 Mana with 40% LMC, and 0.5 secs to cast with 2 FC. My oldschool Nox/Scribe Mage (120 Magery/120 Eval/GM Med/GM Resist/GM Wrest/GM Inscrip/80 Poison) can cast a full power Evil Omen with just his Human JoAT for a unresistable Lethal Poison. If i really want to cast it reliably, all i have to do is put on my +15 Necro/15% DCI/FC 1/FCR 3 Ring/Bracelet.
Who cares about baseline? You need 60 skill to stop failing evil omen. Even with that and your JoaT, you dont have enough time to cast anything on the opponent if they move four spaces away as the evil omen will already have worn off.

For one, that template you proposed was really bad. For two, you would fail EO so many times it would not be worth a cast. Are you suggesting to put +15 on both ring and brace to give you 30? You will still fail a majority of the casts, seeing as how you are only half way to stop failing. And on top of that, unless you are casting right next to the target and they are not moving, you will not get the lethal/deadly off. (you would need to get within one tile of them).
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
Who cares about baseline? You need 60 skill to stop failing evil omen. Even with that and your JoaT, you dont have enough time to cast anything on the opponent if they move four spaces away as the evil omen will already have worn off.

For one, that template you proposed was really bad. For two, you would fail EO so many times it would not be worth a cast. Are you suggesting to put +15 on both ring and brace to give you 30? You will still fail a majority of the casts, seeing as how you are only half way to stop failing. And on top of that, unless you are casting right next to the target and they are not moving, you will not get the lethal/deadly off. (you would need to get within one tile of them).
And all that is not even giving the mention of the short length of time it lasts with 0 SS (or I guess 20 since Human). To many variables to actually say using EO and poison on a human with 0 skill is a "good" way to do something let alone saying it was "reliable". Sure you might be able to pull it off in a pinch if you are lucky, other wise a useless mention by him.
 

Logrus

UO Legend
VIP
Stratics Veteran
For Chiv/Karma Scaling it works like this.

The base effect from Chiv skill * .5 to 1.5 depending on Karma.


So if 10 Chiv Heals you for 10 HP at 0 Karma, @Max positive Karma it should heal you for 15, and Max Negative Karma would heal you for 5.


If 100 Chivalry healed you for 30 @ 0 Karma, then it would be 45 @ max positive karma and 15 @Max negative


Serpent Arrow was unchanged. (In code serpent arrow seems capable of inflicting lethal poison with HIGH dex, archery and poisoning).


The Poison Resistance effect, acts as a passive chance to self cure poison. This does not prevent the character from being re-poisoned. The chance to cure is re-rolled on each poison tick. Since these ticks usually occur between 2-5 seconds, and the first tick takes place around 3 seconds.
This means that even if the resistance kicks in on the first tick the target is guaranteed to remain poisoned for at least 3 seconds unless they cure the poison by their own initiative.
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
For Chiv/Karma Scaling it works like this.

The base effect from Chiv skill * .5 to 1.5 depending on Karma.


So if 10 Chiv Heals you for 10 HP at 0 Karma, @Max positive Karma it should heal you for 15, and Max Negative Karma would heal you for 5.


If 100 Chivalry healed you for 30 @ 0 Karma, then it would be 45 @ max positive karma and 15 @Max negative


Serpent Arrow was unchanged. (In code serpent arrow seems capable of inflicting lethal poison with HIGH dex, archery and poisoning).


The Poison Resistance effect, acts as a passive chance to self cure poison. This does not prevent the character from being re-poisoned. The chance to cure is re-rolled on each poison tick. Since these ticks usually occur between 2-5 seconds, and the first tick takes place around 3 seconds.
This means that even if the resistance kicks in on the first tick the target is guaranteed to remain poisoned for at least 3 seconds unless they cure the poison by their own initiative.
What is "HIGH" Logrus? Because most archers usually have max dex in order to increase their swing speed.
 

Logrus

UO Legend
VIP
Stratics Veteran
Looking at serpent arrow its a very convoluted formula but basically.
In order to have a chance to hit lethal with serpent arrow, an archer would need an average of 100 archery and dex in addition to GM poisoning.
The chance to inflict poison is reduced by the targets poison resistance.

The chance to Lethal Poison is about 0.14% (Not 12%, 0.14%). Anything less cannot do lethal.
28% Chance to DP
28% Chance to GP
28% Chance to NP (Normal Poison)
14% Chance to Lesser Poison




At GM Poisoning, 120 Archery and 150 Dexterity the chances scale like this.
100% Chance to Poison Target
17% Chance to Lethal
24% Chance Each DP to Normal Poison
7% Chance for Lesser poison.
(Those wont add up because of the decimals getting dropped)
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Logrus, any idea when we can expect any adjustments to be made in test center per any suggestions AND/OR a goal for any of this going live? Just curious if this will be in a feel it out stage for a very long time, or not.

Pretty exciting stuff.
 
T

Tommy Gun's

Guest
Re: Combat Game Balance - Must Read

OK , as a decent pvper and from playing on the test and testing out the new spell damage increase cap . all i can say is if you guys really wanna even pvp out and make it lot better for all the Ultima Online players, is you guys need to change the Magic Resist skill, and change it so that it randomly resist spells that players cast like explode and flamestrike, and increase the %percent of damage it reduces . that would make it soooo much better !
 

PaithanTheElf

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Re: Combat Game Balance - Must Read

OK , as a decent pvper and from playing on the test and testing out the new spell damage increase cap . all i can say is if you guys really wanna even pvp out and make it lot better for all the Ultima Online players, is you guys need to change the Magic Resist skill, and change it so that it randomly resist spells that players cast like explode and flamestrike, and increase the %percent of damage it reduces . that would make it soooo much better !
There was a day when that actually happened. I remember taking 3 damage flamestrikes due to resist...
 

J.B.

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Make the fixes for PVP not PVM, Specifically the Chiv spells. PVM'rs were not the ones crying for fixes, at least i was not.
 
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