[Feedback] Combat Game Balance

[Cloak&Dagger]

Then with the petals, apples and lightning strike nerf, it's like they said "hey, what else can we do to make sure nothing stronger than an ogre lord can be soloed." Yet very little has been done to advertise UO and try to bring in more players. Players are soloing stuff sometimes because they want to, but for some, it's because it's hard to find other players to group with.

I can wholly agree with this, advertisement fixing things that are less than player friendly, causing more positive remarks on the boards. All these would help with UO's population. Also I find more people who are trying to make it/keep it a single player version of a multiplayer game than I do find people who "have" to play that way. It has gone on for years now, and even on the lowest of populated shards people should have been able to find someone to play with, if you can't then it is because of people who want to play alone. (Well I would amend this statement to be more of if you "couldn't" rather than if you can't since population on some shards does seem to be reaching the end of the line where everyone you see is afk.)

 

[Wojoe]

PVP balance:

I do like the idea's that are on test now but a lot more should be done to help pvp. I'll just list some things I know affect pvp.

Guilds: The existence of massive guilds has done more to stem pvp then any other thing in UO...the vast majority of player's are forced to join one...if not, you cant compete. THE END... If you want to increase pvp competition across the board somehow limit this.

Skill Scrolls: Should be available to everyone, Fighting over them is stale now anyways. If people can not get them they will not PVP.

Voice chat: Add it to the game...This is another thing that limits player's. Most all large guilds use voice chat programs and if it was a game feature more people would group to pvp. It is the biggest force multiplier in the game and adding it would do wonders for the have nots.

Cheating: Sorry but skill training programs and medic scripts need to be addressed. For years this has been a issue and we that do not are at a disadvantage.

Order/Chaos: This feature was great...it was simple and fun....The best part of O/C was people just fought to fight...I’ll repeat that....People just fought to fight...there was no rewards for fighting as it should be.

Stat Loss: just sucks...that's 20 mins to do something else...like play lol. Factions has failed and failed and failed...the first 6 mths after it was put in it was fun...but now its how everyone gets items for PVP....there is hardly any PVP in factions now...people just trade points for items between guild members.

Items: It's way to hard for a new player to achieve the items for PVP.


thanks...

 

[Wojoe]

Sorry but the PVM nerfs are long over do...No one person should be able to solo the games hardest monsters...The problem is, if they can beat the most powerful monsters then they can kill everything else to and there is no risk/reward in that.

It will also bring less gold into the game, And that's a good thing right now.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Sorry but the PVM nerfs are long over do...No one person should be able to solo the games hardest monsters...The problem is, if they can beat the most powerful monsters then they can kill everything else to and there is no risk/reward in that.

It will also bring less gold into the game, And that's a good thing right now.

This barely addresses any of those issues. It is a start but it is not really a big enough hit to stop soloing most things if not everything.

 

[Thav12]

I am not a dev as$ kisser, never been, but this thread is ridiculous. The changes that messana is proposing (they can still be adjusted) are actually very well thought out. It is incredibly hard to adjust things without unbalancing things more. The very brave move to make changes to core skills in this game in an attempt to balance the game more with the power players can exert should be applauded.

I play sampires and various variations of characters and I am constantly searching for new combinations for pvm and pvp. The proposed changes largely make sense. I can't wait to test them and tweak my characters accordingly.

Anyone relying on enemy of one or consecrate weapon on their sampires does not know how to play this game.

 

[drizztdagrimm]

... Try using just cleansing to stay alive.

It will be a bunch of poison pure mages, or scribe pure mages. Those would be the only focused characters. A focused poisoning ninja maybe? but again, I don't see the point if SDI is the only benefit of focusing. I also don't think the game needs 30 dmg lightnings.. and 55 dmg flamestrikes.

awww poor Virem can't play point and click characters anymore boo hoo All I can say is its about damn time we turn the pvp world back to the hands of mages! I'm so sick and tired of point and click templates that require 0 skill.

I know this is all temporary an eventual nerf will make dexers top dogs again anyways so everyone should just relax its uo its always a giant clusterf#%$

sorry Virem nothing but love just couldn't resist

 

[KoolAidAddict]

I did not make an assumption "Your" does not have to be specific to you, would you rather me have said "why does my group"? I can understand a little better with your example of playing with strangers I take it? But other than that I would assume a group of people can figure out how to share nicely.

Would have been better to say "any" group.
And yes, if you have 4 random people you've gathered from chat to do a boss, champ, whatever, who decides who gets the honor?
And does the other 3, heheh, then recall home and stone on 120 chiv?
hehe
I just dont see where this does any good, nor how or why they feel it needs adjusting for pvm.

 

[Squeax]

Chivalry changes were long, long, long overdue. It's not even a nerf, since someone who has GM or better Chivalry is actually getting better. Whining that you shouldn't need to take the skill past like 60 at all is just ridiculous.

The change they need to make now: Spirit Speak needs to dictate the power of leeches derived from Necromancy forms, being much better than current at GM+ levels.

Genuine necromancers with necro and SS get a buff from this. Genuine paladins with full Chivalry get a buff from the changes already announced. Chiv/necro Sampires disappear in a puff of whining.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

why they feel it needs adjusting for pvm.

I do agree with this, or at least am concerned with the lack of "why" a lot of the changes are good and are look like things people have over all gripped about but the chiv seems random and would be nice to know what the plans are there.

 

[Zero Day]

After testing it seems that the scale for consecrate is close to 1 to 1, with skill vs chance to proc.
So my Sampire with 50 Chiv is going to be hitting every other hit at the lowest resist.
Thats not gonna really impact my damage enough for me to bother changing my template.

However, on my necro chiv archer, he seems to be getting a little better healing than on prod. But his bonus for divine fury not as good.

I am curious to see if my pure paladin is going to be able to do more damage to make it a competitive pvm template, it seems slayer + EoO at 120 and consecrate i'm getting some sweet damage ticks.

Can we please get some numbers on consecrate!

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I've come to the conclusion that this change is a step forward for ultima online, although I might not agree with some of the changes, it is in the right steps towards a major pvp revamp. This is the beginning of a fresh new slate of pvp, new diverse templates 40 sdi necro warriors, effective tactic mages.

necros got their apple timers,
pure and tactics mages got a nice punch,
Poisoning finally got some incentive
Dexxers finally got a much needed Nerf for 1 vs 1 situations,

although I wish some different routes were taken I hope to see more drastic pvp changes,

 

[Jonathan Baron]

First, pardon one off topic remark that I feel compelled to make. Great job with the pet vendors. Splendidly designed and implemented, a real boost to New Magincia and spreading out commerce which, for so many, is the true core of the game.

What I love is that it serves the needs of new and veteran players alike and serves all classes of players, not just tamers seeking a greater Greater or a vanity Cu Sidhe. Many pet sellers carry Fire Beetles, Giant Beetles, rideable Llamas and the calmer varieties of the Ostards. This is how I evaluate all changes: what's in it for the old player and the new.

Back to the topic. Making single discipline magic users more powerful in PvP is brilliant. Anything to simplify PvP is brilliant. PvP is attractive to young players and would attract new players if it made some semblance of sense.

But then we move onto the rest of the list. Here is where we part company. If you mean to troubleshoot a problem or make a substantial change it makes sense to do it one major change at a time. See how it plays out, and make another change or improvement.

This volume of simulataneous change is unwise. Too disruptive, too confusing, and nearly impossible to gauge with any precision. Such utterly comprehensive levels of change almost guarantee negative disruption even if every single change would, by itself, be a good one.

I have a more modest proposal. Make single discipiline magic users more powerful in PvP as you suggest and dump the out-dated 700 point skill cap on new accounts. This will allow new players to be competitive in PvP, encourage more teamwork in existing PvP, and simplify an activity already conditionally overburdened.

If that works out, then move onto, say, your Chivalry overhaul.

Finally, and pretty please, post detailed change notes *in the patcher* the day changes go live.

Thank you
-

 

[KoolAidAddict]

Anyone relying on enemy of one or consecrate weapon on their sampires does not know how to play this game.

rant....
Stupid to rely on a skill to do what it was designed to do huh.
Im positive you dont rely on whatever skill you use to get from point A to point B either, right?
I mean, theres other ways, or one just doesnt know how to play.
One can just ride their mode of trans (or run) to the waters edge, plop the boat in, and sail to your island destination, right?
Wait, wouldnt that be relying on the ride to work, the boat to float?
And relying on the "help Im stuck" option would be asking too much as well, I guess.
/rant

I "rely" on EOO cause that is what it does, same as your relying on your 70 suit, or your hit point leech, even tho relying on my boat rune is now a thing of the past, evidently.
The template is what it is, based on the "reliance" of certain things.
Some proposed changes are gonna make that hard to do, but perhaps not impossible.
And if we can agree on that last statement, then WHY in the crap make the change in the first place????
It certainly doesnt, IMO, balance a dum diddly thing!

 

[Kellgory]

Interesting changes, I can see people contemplating and revamping skills and suits already...Do I ditch the Mystic Mage and go pure class caster or keep what I have. Hope everyone tests the changes and gives honest feedback. Personally I like it, UO has always been about having to make choices and changes. If I wanted to be stuck with cookie cutter templates, I probably would be playing something else.

 

[puni666]

Chivalry changes were long, long, long overdue. It's not even a nerf, since someone who has GM or better Chivalry is actually getting better. Whining that you shouldn't need to take the skill past like 60 at all is just ridiculous.

The change they need to make now: Spirit Speak needs to dictate the power of leeches derived from Necromancy forms, being much better than current at GM+ levels.

Genuine necromancers with necro and SS get a buff from this. Genuine paladins with full Chivalry get a buff from the changes already announced. Chiv/necro Sampires disappear in a puff of whining.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. I've been saying this for vampiric embrace FOREVER! Spirit speak should add 30/7.5%, 60/15%, 90/22.5%, 120/30% life leech.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I "rely" on EOO cause that is what it does, same as your relying on your 70 suit, or your hit point leech, even tho relying on my boat rune is now a thing of the past, evidently.
The template is what it is, based on the "reliance" of certain things.
Some proposed changes are gonna make that hard to do, but perhaps not impossible.
And if we can agree on that last statement, then WHY in the crap make the change in the first place????
It certainly doesnt, IMO, balance a dum diddly thing!

I simply believe it is a step in the right direction, depending on the desired result that is. I guess I should not even speculate by saying that since I have no idea what they are thinking anymore than anyone else does.

 

[Mirt]

I have only 2 semi-crazy points that I need to get off my chest.
First. This is a huge PVM nerf and just for those that like to PVP who seem not to care about this well, there isn't much I can say about that except that if you want UO to keep going you need to realize that PVMers are far more numerous. If the PVMers go the game probably will too. Before you all yell test it before you say I already have, it hurts big time.
Second. This one is going to start a flame war so I am just going to say it and let smarter folks that PVP actually decide. Anyway here it is. Everyone saying how they love how the chiv changes are making skill more important would you also support taking away mage weapons. I think you should in this case as mage weapons essentially give mages an extra 60 points to their template (80 if they are using a crystalline ring which is easy for PVPers to come by using faction arties). If so we should also add in this change as it will help provide some balance. Also it will have the benefit of not messing with PVM to much so at least we can all be miserable together.
Well there's my two cents worth.
Oh for the Devs as I primarily play PVM I am reconsidering the amount of money I now spend on UO in these tough times because I really only have fun playing Dexxer temps. Figured I should say that.

 

[Selan]

So...to everyone quitting yet again after a change...can I have your stuff?

 

[slayer888]

For the new sampire template, if under new changes, try this method:-

human or elf

120 sword
120 tactics
120 chiv
100 bushido (+10 each on ring and bracelet)
100 resisting
100 necro
60 parrying

or

120 sword
120 tactics
120 bushido
100 chiv
100 resist
100 necro
60 parry

or

120 sword
120 tactics
100 bushido
100 chiv
100 resisting (+10 each on ring and braclet) option A
100 necro
80 parry (+10 each on ring and bracelet) option B

To offset the remove curse enchanted apple 45 seconds, you could simply carry 20-30 faction bandage for removal as well

120 + 120 + 60 = 300 (so meaning do not require any extra mana for special moves)

suit will need to be 40 LMC + full resist (65+ physical will still be acceptable) + EP 50, hci 45, dci 45, di 100 (with weap), mr is not so important since your weapons must have mana leech, for extra slots, I will put hp increase and mana increase

Of course, i honestly dont want to see the stupid new change in chiv cuz I dont have any time to adjust 30 of my pvp and pvm chars like when i was a teen.

Every night I log on after work, I could only bear the 1-2 hours time for pvping in Asuka or Formosa.

Hope the changes doesnt need to change the template and suits at all, otherwise its just crazy! Wasting too much time.

 

[SixUnder]

More damage output will allow you to potentially kill your opponent before they run off screen.

With stat loss and stuff, whats the difference, alot of people run off screen if you get one spell off or connect with one weapon hit anyways. people run and apple immediatly as soon as you even curse them. These changes are nice.

I think the chiv change is kind of crappy for the pvm guys, but honestly, its much needed. Chivalry has always been a skill without a reason to have higher skill points in it unless you wanted to holy light, now it has a purpose. Don't we all just throw 120 chivs away anyways?

your right. it would make mages even more powerful than they allread vs dexers anyways now. but riddle me this....

when your alone, and getting mortaled, blood oahts, spell plague spammed, evil omen, strangle etc..and you cant apple.. you wish that timer wasnt what it will be on tc.


my .02
make ther 16 sec see what happens?
for being devlopers you dont seem very logical.
taking a 12 sec timer and almost quadrupling it in a rng enviornment.
that makes no sense.

small changes we ased for, not a shot to the moon

 

[Cetric]

your right. it would make mages even more powerful than they allread vs dexers anyways now. but riddle me this....

when your alone, and getting mortaled, blood oahts, spell plague spammed, evil omen, strangle etc..and you cant apple.. you wish that timer wasnt what it will be on tc.


my .02
make ther 16 sec see what happens?
for being devlopers you dont seem very logical.
taking a 12 sec timer and almost quadrupling it in a rng enviornment.
that makes no sense.

small changes we ased for, not a shot to the moon

don't act like you aren't drooling over the poisoning changes

 

[Jonathan Baron]

Again, I have to stress that these changes have to be implemented in increments and evaluated before the next is released.

I decided to just listen in to the radio traffic on the shards I have guys on: Chessy, Cats, Atlantic, Great Lakes, and Siege....well....Siege was quiet Most intense, naturally, was Atlantic and its help channel was non-stop abuzz.

The volume and diversity of these changes is overwhelming any sense of merit, in my view. Each person latches onto the element most pertinent to their main guys and play style thereby making coherent discussion "difficult."

You must be clear. Which changes are aimed at PvP and apply only to PvP? What are the design goals of each? Same for PvM.

What is the problem? How does a proposed change address it?

You have to do this for all of them. You really do.

Online games are a narrative told by the audience. It's their world. The development team is the hired help. That's not meant to belittle the latter. It's simply the most basic of facts, delivered without rancor and agenda-free.
-

 

[Violence]

Nice!

These may have been already discussed, but reading through those changes I noticed a few peculiarities..

Enchanted Apples:
CD Increased to 45
Failure does not invoke the CD.

> I see that this clearly IS way more balanced. But not invoking CD on Fail?.. Why?..

Healing Skill
At half the Heal Duration will attempt to remove Poison and Bleed. This will reduce the amount Healed.
Max Heal Duration Reduced to 8 Seconds.
Slip Damage Now Scales based on Dexterity

> Reduced to 8? Don't you mean INCREASED to 8? Did I get something wrong? Then, so, basically you allow Healers to remove ALL major effects AND Heal though not fully.. How is this balanced along with Potions and a zillion other ways to recover Health and remove various effects?
I see this as a BOOST. Not a BALANCING measure. A boost which is not really required, is it? As you clearly did not put new Timers on any Pots.

**Faction Bandages do not require the Healing skill and so function using the old Healing methods.

> I've been gone too long, and never used Healing on my Characters. I take it then that the old method was that 1 Bandage/Attempt = Remove 1 Effect and without removing Effects, can't Heal?

Poison (Magery): Players with greater than GM Poisoning..

> WAIT WHAT?! GREATER THAN GM POISONING = LEGENDARY POISONERS NOW? Wow...

Increase SDI cap *15% to 40%* for focusing in only one Spell School: Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, Ninjitsu, Bushido, Animal Taming, Musicianship, Chivary, Spellweaving.

> Okay, so now I need SDI items or more DI for a Ninja so that my Ninjitsu Specials can inflict their Max Dmg? Or is this just in terms of "Conflicting" to BLOCK SDI Cap Inrease?

Cure Potions:
Success has been adjusted.

> Yeah okay, without a Timer you're not doing ANYTHING. Are you.. Srsly. This will take ANOTHER 4 years of constant EXPLAINING to fix, after it took you 4 years for this change? Uhhhmmm. Either fix it for serious or stop teasing with miniscule redundant tweaks...?

Block:
Bonus DCI scaled with Ninjitsu or Bushido.
> What if BOTH are present...
Penalty to their HCI and DMG.
> Okay, again what if BOTH are present and isn't this too punishing?
Block : Next DMG severely reduced. Parry 70+.
> Right. How severely, what TYPES of damage? All? Even DOTs?

Force Arrow:
20% DI. Target DCI -10%. Stacks.
> Woah, what's the point of DCI now then? Too many ways to reduce it which all stack. Items, Skills, Debuffs from one's own Abilities and now Force Arrow? And why did Archery need so much BUFF? (Pure)Melee did.. Not Archery.
Dazed : GUARANTEED Spell Interrupt even with Protection.
> Okay, all Cast Abilities then? So Archers will now have +1 to Mage Pwnery as if they didn't have it easy enough Vs. Mages?.. Like, Daze that last second Heal, just to be sure? Come on. Either give the same Ability to ALL Templates or forget the Daze part. What, a Melee can't sort of Daze? Or a Mage can't Daze another Mage? Doesn't make much sense in terms of Game Mechanics to me. I may be confused but I think this is too much.

At 90+ Chivalry, Consecrate Weapon = DI
> Over-Cap? Even if not.. Over-Kill?! LOLWut.. So EOO, CW.. Items.. Skills.. 1Shot Chivies now especially in Ganging?

Dual Wield
> Excellent stuff! Only this Move is on the crappiest weapons, chained to the crappiest AltMoves too.. Like Talon Strike. Please just implement LITERAL DUAL WIELDING with what disadvantages you wish and get over with this?

Further Suggestions
Add some Pure Melee stuff?! Like Focusing on Lumber/Swords or Fencing/Poisoning without additional Skills such as Bushido ETC?
Seriously I love what you're doing, you're sitting there trying to fix things we've been discussing for YEARS. I respect that, that's a major improvement. BUT DO IT RIGHT PLEASE. And take it REALLY SLOW.

So..
I see great intentions, great potential.. But the calculations sound Orky at this point! And obscure at many points! Not to mention some things you've tweaked make no sense, like changing Pot Cure Chance but not adding Timers. Think it over please..!!
Otherwise the CONCEPTS of those changes alone.. Are reason enough for me to get back in UO. ....Well, that is to say that it will make competing with Cheaters much more bearable.

EDIT : I hope you go through with all that, particularly the Spec'ing.. When last Devs tried to implement Spell/Skill Focusing there was lots of /NerdRage on Stratics. Best of Luck!(Over 9000)

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

Great Changes! As a long time paladin (and hopefully somewhat respected as one) I think transfering some of the pvm only chiv abilities into the pvp arena is a good move.

Also forcing people to dedicate skill points to get the full benefit of Chiv abilties and forcing players to maintain the highest karma to unlock their full effectiveness is exactly what the UO paladin needed.

For far to long, people have been able to throw 50-60 skill points into chiv and get almost the entire benefit of the template. This change will effect pvp and pvm for the better (maybe make it harder on some of the uber templates but better in terms of equality and competativeness among different templates both in pvp and pvm).

I won't be able to do much testing this week but I do have some questions and suggestions for those willing to test some things out:

Game Balance Changes
Focus Skill Spec (PVP)

Increase of spell damage increase cap from *15% to 40%* for templates that focus in only one spell school. Focused players, having no more than 30.0 modified skill points in another main skill set will be able to benefit from the raised cap.Main skills include: Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, Ninjitsu, Bushido, Animal Taming, Musicianship, Chivary, Spellweaving.
*subject to change based on testing

Chiv is mentioned on the Focus list. The only spell I can imagine being effected by the sdi cap would be Holy Light. In my experience sdi has had no effect on Holy Light Damage. Would anyone mind testing this out and letting me know if sdi now effects Holy Light? Or any other chiv spells for that matter?

Enchanted Apples:
Cooldown Increased to 45
They now have a chance to fail depending on the level and number of curses applied to the user.
Failure does not invoke the cooldown period.

Great change, the timer of 45 seconds is good but there should be a timer applied when a curse is removed that prevents the target from being recursed immediately. Something simple like a 5 second immunity.

CHIVALRY
The way chivalry and abilities work has been revised so that the effects, and durations now place more emphasis on skill level rather than just karma. In cases where Karma is evaluated, it will provide a modifier to the chivalry skill factor. This means that chivalry will provide a baseline for the power or duration of the effect and karma will either increase or decrease that baseline. In order to achieve the highest possible levels, both skill and karma will be required.

The way it should be!

Divine Fury:
Bonus effects and stamina regeneration from divine fury now scale based on chivalry skill and karma. Stamina regeneration from divine fury is no longer a full refreshment, but rather a set amount of stamina.

Great change. As Chiv increases so do the hci, dmg and ssi.

Please do not make this abilitiy overpowered by raising the max effects above hci: 10, dmg 10, ssi: 10, although reducing the negative effects of dci, based on chiv skill and a high karma bonus would be an interesting wrinkle.

Something like:
Chiv Skill__________Bonus_____________________________Negative_____
Chiv: 0-60: Hci:0, ssi:0, dmg:5, stamina = (chiv/2)----------DCI (-20)
Chiv: 61-70: HCI: 5, ssi0 dmg:5, stamina = (chiv/2)---------DCI (-20)
Chiv: 71-80: HCI:5, ssi:5, dmg10, stamina = (chiv/2)-------DCI(-20)
Chiv: 81-90: HCI:10, ssi:5, dmg:10 stamina = (chiv/2)------DCI (-20)
Chiv: 91-100: HCI:10, ssi:10, dmg:10 stamina =(Chiv/2) -----DCI (-20)
Chiv 101-110 hci:10, ssi:10, dmg 10, stamina = (chiv/2)-----DCI (-15)
Chiv 111-119: hci:10, ssi:10, dmg 10, stamina = (chiv/2)-----DCI (-10)
Chiv 120: Hci:10, ssi:10, dmg:10, stamina = (chiv/2)---------DCI (-5)

High Karma reduces DCI penalty by -5 and increases duration of effect.

IMPORTANT: MAKE SURE multiple castings of Divine Fury DO NOT CAUSE the benefits or negatives to stack. Recasting simple resets the timer and adds additional stamina to the pool. [Long ago archers would stack divine fury's for massive hci and damage bonus's - lets not go back there lol)

Cleanse By Fire:
Cure chance for poison has been updated.

Hopefully scaled with karma and skill. I rarely fight people that dp anymore but high levels of poison were always hard to cure even at gm chiv and the highest karma level.

Enemy of One
Enemy of one has now been changed to a Spell Toggle. You can remove the effect before the duration expires by recasting the spell. (Recasting while the spell is in effect will cost 0 mana and 0 cast time)
The Damage bonus will now Scale based on Chivalry Skill. Duration Will Scale with Chivalry and Karma
(PvP)
Enemy of One will now work against Players and Pets. The damage increase cap will be significantly reduced and apply ONLY to the player or Pet being attacked. Damage received from all other sources will be increased by 30% while this ability is in effect versus a player or pet. Duration is capped at 8 seconds for PvP.

Initial thoughts: Timer is to short to be useful in combat, maybe a base of 8 seconds and scaled up to a cap of 15 seconds based on karma and chiv.

The negative of increased damage from all other sources of 30% seems a little excessive and should be scaled down from a base of 30% to 15% determined by the Skill and Karma of the caster.

Remove Curse
The difficulty of successfully removing curses now scales with the level and number of curses in effect in addition to factoring chivalry skill and karma.

Sounds great as long as removing curses are not to difficult for high karma, high chiv characters nor to easy for low chiv or low karma characters.

Consecrate Weapon
Consecrate Weapon no longer guarantees damage against a target’s weakest resist. Concecrate weapon now provides a scaling chance to do damage against the targets weakest resist type. At 90+ Chivalry, consecrate weapon will also offer a damage increase in addition to optimal damage type.

Great change. Add a buff icon and its golden

Additional Thoughts:

Give the Dispel Evil spell the additional function of exorcising ghosts from champ areas and faction bases (working in the same fashion as the necro exorsim spell).

-Lore's Player

 

[Nexus]

First, pardon one off topic remark that I feel compelled to make. Great job with the pet vendors. Splendidly designed and implemented, a real boost to New Magincia and spreading out commerce which, for so many, is the true core of the game.

What I love is that it serves the needs of new and veteran players alike and serves all classes of players, not just tamers seeking a greater Greater or a vanity Cu Sidhe. Many pet sellers carry Fire Beetles, Giant Beetles, rideable Llamas and the calmer varieties of the Ostards. This is how I evaluate all changes: what's in it for the old player and the new.

Back to the topic. Making single discipline magic users more powerful in PvP is brilliant. Anything to simplify PvP is brilliant. PvP is attractive to young players and would attract new players if it made some semblance of sense.

But then we move onto the rest of the list. Here is where we part company. If you mean to troubleshoot a problem or make a substantial change it makes sense to do it one major change at a time. See how it plays out, and make another change or improvement.

This volume of simulataneous change is unwise. Too disruptive, too confusing, and nearly impossible to gauge with any precision. Such utterly comprehensive levels of change almost guarantee negative disruption even if every single change would, by itself, be a good one.

I have a more modest proposal. Make single discipiline magic users more powerful in PvP as you suggest and dump the out-dated 700 point skill cap on new accounts. This will allow new players to be competitive in PvP, encourage more teamwork in existing PvP, and simplify an activity already conditionally overburdened.

If that works out, then move onto, say, your Chivalry overhaul.

Finally, and pretty please, post detailed change notes *in the patcher* the day changes go live.

Thank you
-

I can buy this but it still won't help the issue that they are refusing to use Object Oriented Programming techniques to their full potential. I don't know if this is because of limitations related to them using a Custom Java Derivative or what (I say this because if I remember correctly they use a modified version of Wombat).

It really shouldn't be difficult to do since flagging works both way, if someone flags on you, you get a message so there is obviously something passing between player A and player B that can be tracked and both players are listed as being in "Heat of Combat" on a level completely different than that of PvM.

If they can't check for this combat flag on a character, and have Apples, Skills reactions, potions, equipment buffs etc. react differently using conditionals then the concept of trying to achieve balancing in the game is futile. They simply will not have enough control on the conditions in which players interact with each other and the game world to bring things into a sphere they can influence with ease. I'm not saying that the devs lack the creativity or the skill to do this, I'm sure they do, but for the life of me, I just can not understand why they don't.

What irks me more is these changes must have been in the works for months. UO has many more pressing things that need to be addressed than Combat balancing.

1. Rampant Cheating - Scripting being #1 on the list
2. Bug Fixes - Bugs can not be allowed to Endure
3. Measures to Stabilise and Balance the Game Economy
4. Correct the gross imbalances that favours veteran players over new players.

All of those things right now are more important, more important than, Combat Balancing, more important than an aggressive new content push, more important than their project to revamp the "New Player Experience". Until those things are brought into check bringing in 100,000 new people won't matter if those people quickly realise that the game is grossly imbalanced in favour of cheaters and veterans and 95,000 of them quickly march right back out the door, along with a small percentage of the current players in the game as they continue to get fed up with hoping for a revitalisation of the game.

 

[Cetric]

Long time no see lore denin!

I'll try to answer some of your testing questions.

Chiv is mentioned on the Focus list. The only spell I can imagine being effected by the sdi cap would be Holy Light. In my experience sdi has had no effect on Holy Light Damage. Would anyone mind testing this out and letting me know if sdi now effects Holy Light? Or any other chiv spells for that matter?

SDI still does not effect holy light. My assumption is that Chiv wasn't added to the list for the 40sdi bonus, but was added much like animal taming. so that you couldn't say, have a 4/6 chivalry spell weaver with 40 sdi, 4/6 heal yourself and have 40sdi for essence of wind, etc.

IMPORTANT: MAKE SURE multiple castings of Divine Fury DO NOT CAUSE the benefits or negatives to stack. Recasting simple resets the timer and adds additional stamina to the pool. [Long ago archers would stack divine fury's for massive hci and damage bonus's - lets not go back there lol)

Did not appear to stack

Hopefully scaled with karma and skill. I rarely fight people that dp anymore but high levels of poison were always hard to cure even at gm chiv and the highest karma level.

surprisingly, i actually had more success at 10k karma/120 chiv curing lethal poison than i did on my mage with arch cure/120magery. I'd say its a safe bet that it is actually more effective.

Initial thoughts: Timer is to short to be useful in combat, maybe a base of 8 seconds and scaled up to a cap of 15 seconds based on karma and chiv.

The negative of increased damage from all other sources of 30% seems a little excessive and should be scaled down from a base of 30% to 15% determined by the Skill and Karma of the caster.

I agree, the 8 seconds did not feel like nearly enough considering if you EoO'd. doubleing it would be much more effective. It really only gives you about a 1-2 base damage boost. at my 120 chiv/10k karma test

I'd also like to point out that consecrate weap appeared to give a similiar base damage boost in that test, which was very nice. So all the sampires should stop screaming

 

[whiterabbit]

oklies it all sounds badz, mebe ozog go back to DDO.I only pvm but des things do sound like pvm nerfs.

Ozog bery depressed

 

[Grey Eagle of Baja]

The chiv changes have been needed since the pwr scroll for it came out. Why else would we have a 120 chiv? . I have 3 characters that run chiv including a Sampire. The change won't be fun, but it will be fair IMO.
As for the apple/ its fine except as I've read on several posts, what is a player suppsed to do after the second curse/spell plague ?
The new template idea of using 1 main skill and 1 sub skill to get the 40SDI thats sweet. Not everyone in UO will be a mystic/mage now. I have 2 mystic/nox/mages that I will need to change around .
Change is good people or we would all get bored and find another game. Ultima is a unique game and so it should stay. After all isnt that why we all stay and or come back to UO ?
Good job DEV'S,
One thing that really would help the game IMO, is to bring back the true warrior to pvp. I read an earlier post from someone that has the same opinion as me on Warriors. They cant do anything in PvP. that really should be fixed. Warriors were great when UO started out and should be again .

Thanks

 

[Don't Tread on Me]

However I do think the current spells of Chivalry isnt worth the full investment of skill points.
Perhaps 1 or 2 new spells for Chivalry which would make it more worthwhile and it will become a fun self-propelled class to play.
QUOTE]

I agree with this. A couple more spells would make the skill points and FC needed to effectively weild chiv worthwhile.

Also, I think that in general this is a good change. Perhaps the SDI cap should go down to 25 or 30 instead of 40. If you are a pure mage with inscription, wouldn't that put your SDI to 50%? That might be a bit much. I also think the 45 second apple timer is a little high, 25-30 seems like a good compromise. It is also nice seeing thought put into poisoning as well. The poison looks to me like the to compromise to the dexxor. Dexxor's can inflict poison and pots might cure it (I'm assuming that the change to the cure pot will make it less effective) but dexxors have 2 chances per bandie to cure.

I think these changes are going to be all right. I like the expansion of classes... this makes it for more templates, which is always fun. I was just telling someone the other day that chiv isn't really worth it in pvp... maybe that isn't going to be so true now.

 

[Kelleron]

Hmm,

Looks like everyone involved in PVP will need either High Level Chiv or Myst to survive. Without the ability to eat apples every 12 seconds, you'll pretty much always be mortalled against a dexxer or cursed/corpse skinned against a mage.

Seems mostly a dexxer nerf to me! As a dexxer you'll need:
High level chiv and the mods to make that work, i.e., FC and FCR.
These templates tend to be somewhat lacking offensively cuz it's hard to have 300 skill points to get the max mana reduction and FC and FCR take of a lot of space on jewellery that could be used for more offensive mods.

Perpetual curse: wonder how much damage an explosion/flamestrike will do from a pure mage with 40% damage increase and incription on someone with only 60 fire resist? Pretty sure if you're on the receiving end, you can basically pack up and go home.

Well, I guess we'll see how it all looks after testing.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

your right. it would make mages even more powerful than they allread vs dexers anyways now. but riddle me this....

when your alone, and getting mortaled, blood oahts, spell plague spammed, evil omen, strangle etc..and you cant apple.. you wish that timer wasnt what it will be on tc.


my .02
make ther 16 sec see what happens?
for being devlopers you dont seem very logical.
taking a 12 sec timer and almost quadrupling it in a rng enviornment.
that makes no sense.

small changes we ased for, not a shot to the moon

You really should not comment on PvP. You for some reason think the timer is 12 seconds. I believe you think this because you start jamming your apple macro right after you get cursed once you just ate an apple. it does take a few seconds to get recursed. For the record the timer is 15 seconds.

 

[Saint of Killers]

This thread is so funny. Almost everyone begging to have their template not messed with.

If all the changes stay as is, you'll see:

Sampys/whammys adjust their template and get along just fine.

Poison will be put on quite a few pvp templates including pure mage/mystic mage/necro mage/any dexxer that can use a melee weapon.

Initially all pure mages will try to squeeze on scribe/poison, but will later drop scribe because 40 to 50 sdi won't feel like a big enough difference for the 100 skill points to them as it did with 15 to 25 sdi.

The template that will take over fel once again will be necro mages, but they'll squeeze in poisoning onto their temps. They won't care about your 40/50 sdi because you'll be constantly debuffed, and their dreaded blood oath will reign supreme. You will see more off screening than ever before due to blood oaths now.

Mystic mages will sit in the back of the line cleansing their group, and plaguing for their 50 sdi guildies. They'll try to rock the gm poisoning, but won't be able to handle pure mages with poisoning, or necro poisoners. They'll resort to what half of them do on my main shard right now, sit in fields in rock form/protection.

I love diversity and major shakeups. I think poisoning is going to be abused, and I think blood oath will be cried about a lot after these changes. I also think 30 seconds sounds right for apples. Faction mages will already have their faction aids, so this apple timer does nothing to weaken their template at all.

 

[yanaki2]

well you should expect this from a game with so little flexability on charicter generation to begin with. half the skills are worthless, the other half dont even do what they were intended to do back in the beginning of the game anyways. you have 2 types of monsters now, the stupid and insanly tough.this game needs a serious overhaul. you nerf one skill and then treak another ..been doing the same thing for years, you get abilities that last for a few seconds instead of minutes.you fight monsters that can 1 to 2 hit kill you when you have your max resists suit on because you dont have the exact mathmatical skill set on to be able to take that 3rd hit.your forced into either ignoring half of the game content or being forced into a group, which most people dont like.it truly is a wonder that this game is still around..i know its not because of pvp...the developers might think that with there rose colored glasses..

 

[PaithanTheElf]

The chiv changes have been needed since the pwr scroll for it came out. Why else would we have a 120 chiv? . I have 3 characters that run chiv including a Sampire. The change won't be fun, but it will be fair IMO.
As for the apple/ its fine except as I've read on several posts, what is a player suppsed to do after the second curse/spell plague ?
The new template idea of using 1 main skill and 1 sub skill to get the 40SDI thats sweet. Not everyone in UO will be a mystic/mage now. I have 2 mystic/nox/mages that I will need to change around .
Change is good people or we would all get bored and find another game. Ultima is a unique game and so it should stay. After all isnt that why we all stay and or come back to UO ?
Good job DEV'S,
One thing that really would help the game IMO, is to bring back the true warrior to pvp. I read an earlier post from someone that has the same opinion as me on Warriors. They cant do anything in PvP. that really should be fixed. Warriors were great when UO started out and should be again .

Thanks

"what is a player supposed to do after the second curse/spell plague"-- Um Take damage instead of appling everything off? People have gotten way to used to 15 second apples and running away at the first sign of a debuff.

Also, pure warriors were good when the game came out-- Yeah- the game has gone through a lot of changes, adapt with the new suits and add skills to your warrior, just like mages have added skills to their template.

 

[Grey Eagle of Baja]

"what is a player supposed to do after the second curse/spell plague"-- Um Take damage instead of appling everything off? People have gotten way to used to 15 second apples and running away at the first sign of a debuff.

Also, pure warriors were good when the game came out-- Yeah- the game has gone through a lot of changes, adapt with the new suits and add skills to your warrior, just like mages have added skills to their template.

I guess the question was, since mages and necros and such are going to be better now back like old school . then maybe the old warrior could get a boost also.
no need to be rude man, I was jsut asking jees

 

[PaithanTheElf]

I guess the question was, since mages and necros and such are going to be better now back like old school . then maybe the old warrior could get a boost also.
no need to be rude man, I was jsut asking jees

Was not trying to be. But there is not much you can do to buff a warrior other than have weps do more damage per hit. You need to pick up complimentary skills and use strategy to kill someone.

 

[jrede23]

im curious if the ppl who institute these changes even play this game or know what the pvp is like? Why is it everytime the try to "balance" the game they make it worse. Furthermore they never change some of the main complaints of the real pvp players. A few off the top of my head.

CHange 1: Im all for apples havin a 45 second cooltime, yet u dont touch smokebombs? U know how many kids who dont pvp just sit there and rely on killshots and smokebombing away. Move smokebomb cooldown timer to 2mins or make it obsolete like WOW, if you pop out and attack u shouldnt be able to instant hide when u didnt get ur redline kill.

Change 2: why have they done nothing about house hiding? Ppl should not be allowed to fight from houses and every shard you see these ppl just attacking from a house and getting in the middle of real pvp. No matter if you are flagged or not, u should automatically be booted out of a house if you attack someone, no questions asked.

Change 3: Why is there guard zone in FEL? Its FEL! kill or be killed! all guard zones should be removed. There is no reason for blues to be in fel hiding in guards, that is what trammel is for. Ppl talk about exploits and the guardzone is the biggest exploit there is.. oooooo hit me near my teleporter, i say yew gate and bam ur guard whacked hehe.. im Soooo great.

I also guarantee that the 40sdi will never hit the main shards. Tactic/mages will be soo OP and no one wants 50 somethin hp FS or Hailstorms depending on what pure temp u choose. Fights will end wayyy too quickly that way.

P.S. one thing i know that will never change but i will complain anyway is thiss... Its called PVP player vs player.. its not player vs players pets.. ALL kill no skill...

 

[Jonathan Baron]

well you should expect this from a game with so little flexability on charicter generation to begin with.

Sorry....don't really mean to single this out, as emotions are running high, but I postulate that most people who stick with UO (and would adopt UO as new players if its rep and new player experience was refurbed) do so precisely because you have so much character flexibility compared to ALL the alternatives in the genre.

Pardon the off topic digression, brothers and sisters in arms....spells....beasts and such
-

 

[Zumm]

Cure Potions:
Success chance for curing poison with cure potions has been adjusted.

Has the success chance been raised or lowered?

 

[Kelleron]

I agree; seams that dexxers are gonna take quite the hit. Think ill go back to WOW. Nothing in the new developments really helps dexxers - I don't much like playing mages.

 

[warrigul]

Well here we go again, yeah guys, us old pvm'ers are put at some disadvantage again! and yeah the PvP'ers are given another handout, and yes we gotta set our sammy's up again.

But ya all gotta learn that we are the minority, (probly not in numbers but in voice yeah), us solo pvm guys are a dying race, but c'mon, dont throw ya hands in the air and run off to WoW. Dont ya think they make changes there from time to time that would upset ya apple cart.

We have to adapt, and then we adapt again. Sure, I dont like the changes, but I am not gonna throw a tamptrum. I am going to adapt, coz thats what we do.

I have multiple accounts and a heap of characters to change too, but I am going to show the devs that we are worth listening to. Maybe if we keep adapting they will see our loyalty and adjust theirs.

Give it a little time and there will be plenty of information on what changes to make.

Hang in there guys.

 

[Obsidian]

For the new sampire template, if under new changes, try this method:-

human or elf

120 sword
120 tactics
120 chiv
100 bushido (+10 each on ring and bracelet)
100 resisting
100 necro
60 parrying

or

120 sword
120 tactics
120 bushido
100 chiv
100 resist
100 necro
60 parry

or

120 sword
120 tactics
100 bushido
100 chiv
100 resisting (+10 each on ring and braclet) option A
100 necro
80 parry (+10 each on ring and bracelet) option B

To offset the remove curse enchanted apple 45 seconds, you could simply carry 20-30 faction bandage for removal as well

.

I agree with you, people will work through the templates and find a way to remain effective. I run two sampires on my primary shard. One is with parry and resist. The other goes for max AI damage with 120 tact/anat and healing (no parry). Lots of ways to adjust both to keep them viable.

One thing I need to test is the 300 DI cap with 120 Chiv. With 120 Chiv, can you go over 300 DI damage with Honor, EOO, and 100 DI on the weapon?

 

[Nexus]

But ya all gotta learn that we are the minority, (probly not in numbers but in voice yeah), us solo pvm guys are a dying race, but c'mon, dont throw ya hands in the air and run off to WoW.

Oh I won't go off and join the WoW band wagon... I'll keep my accounts with UO if for nothing else, because I keep a house setup for Guildmates to run vendors out of.

What I will do and have largely been doing is go play LOTRO. I've been a part time UO player for the past year or so, I keep my accounts going, but I go off play other things and come back... it just seems those away times are getting longer and longer as I see nothing happening to actually "improve" the game in terms of subscriptions, and cheating.

It's really frustrating, you spend well over a decade immersing yourself into a game and suddenly one day you get the feeling, that your standards and expectations have diverged from those of the developers.

Yes it's their game we don't know everything behind the scenes, but when even the Developers have admitted something is wrong (like scripting) and you continually see nothing happening it's not hard to put 2 and 2 together.

The only thing that makes sense any more is that UO is either on or extremely close to being on life support. We've got a 15 person Dev team credited in High Seas, one of the smallest in the MMO industry from what I could find out by pulling the credits from half a dozen games (most listed over 50, and closer to 100).

They release the plans for these "Combat Balance" changes and push it on TC, and still once again the real issues that are hurting the game aren't being addressed. We can get a bug fix for something that started 2 weeks ago, but not 5 years ago. The people who were scripting their nights away years ago are still doing it now. But we get Combat Balancing, and hints about a "New, New Player Experience" when there aren't really all that many New Players coming in. This isn't a Field of Dreams type thing, if they are thinking, "If you build it they will come" then I hate to point it out but it will not work. It's resources that could be better spent addressing the real issues harming UO.


Even with all of this I don't blame Cal and company.... UO was in rough shape when Cal took the reigns it's in bad shape now, and I don't know if there is really anything other than a complete overhaul on the serve side to eliminate bugs, scripting, exploits etc. that can help, and with so few I don't think there are enough people on the team left to undertake that type of project and still push out content to keep the folks playing now happy until it's done.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Let me address the new new player experience quickly.

The reason that's worth it, even without a lot of new players, is that UO's future lies in retention.

For my part, in terms of health of the game and potential health of the game, I would consider a mere 2 new players a month who stayed for a couple of years to be worth the effort of revising the new player experience.

Not from an actuarial perspective, perhaps, but from a cultural/relevance perspective.

-Galen's player

Oh I won't go off and join the WoW band wagon... I'll keep my accounts with UO if for nothing else, because I keep a house setup for Guildmates to run vendors out of.

What I will do and have largely been doing is go play LOTRO. I've been a part time UO player for the past year or so, I keep my accounts going, but I go off play other things and come back... it just seems those away times are getting longer and longer as I see nothing happening to actually "improve" the game in terms of subscriptions, and cheating.

It's really frustrating, you spend well over a decade immersing yourself into a game and suddenly one day you get the feeling, that your standards and expectations have diverged from those of the developers.

Yes it's their game we don't know everything behind the scenes, but when even the Developers have admitted something is wrong (like scripting) and you continually see nothing happening it's not hard to put 2 and 2 together.

The only thing that makes sense any more is that UO is either on or extremely close to being on life support. We've got a 15 person Dev team credited in High Seas, one of the smallest in the MMO industry from what I could find out by pulling the credits from half a dozen games (most listed over 50, and closer to 100).

They release the plans for these "Combat Balance" changes and push it on TC, and still once again the real issues that are hurting the game aren't being addressed. We can get a bug fix for something that started 2 weeks ago, but not 5 years ago. The people who were scripting their nights away years ago are still doing it now. But we get Combat Balancing, and hints about a "New, New Player Experience" when there aren't really all that many New Players coming in. This isn't a Field of Dreams type thing, if they are thinking, "If you build it they will come" then I hate to point it out but it will not work. It's resources that could be better spent addressing the real issues harming UO.


Even with all of this I don't blame Cal and company.... UO was in rough shape when Cal took the reigns it's in bad shape now, and I don't know if there is really anything other than a complete overhaul on the serve side to eliminate bugs, scripting, exploits etc. that can help, and with so few I don't think there are enough people on the team left to undertake that type of project and still push out content to keep the folks playing now happy until it's done.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

This post cannot possibly be serious.

-Galen's player

PVP balance:

I do like the idea's that are on test now but a lot more should be done to help pvp. I'll just list some things I know affect pvp.

Guilds: The existence of massive guilds has done more to stem pvp then any other thing in UO...the vast majority of player's are forced to join one...if not, you cant compete. THE END... If you want to increase pvp competition across the board somehow limit this.

Skill Scrolls: Should be available to everyone, Fighting over them is stale now anyways. If people can not get them they will not PVP.

Voice chat: Add it to the game...This is another thing that limits player's. Most all large guilds use voice chat programs and if it was a game feature more people would group to pvp. It is the biggest force multiplier in the game and adding it would do wonders for the have nots.

Cheating: Sorry but skill training programs and medic scripts need to be addressed. For years this has been a issue and we that do not are at a disadvantage.

Order/Chaos: This feature was great...it was simple and fun....The best part of O/C was people just fought to fight...I’ll repeat that....People just fought to fight...there was no rewards for fighting as it should be.

Stat Loss: just sucks...that's 20 mins to do something else...like play lol. Factions has failed and failed and failed...the first 6 mths after it was put in it was fun...but now its how everyone gets items for PVP....there is hardly any PVP in factions now...people just trade points for items between guild members.

Items: It's way to hard for a new player to achieve the items for PVP.


thanks...

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

More random thoughts.

Are you all sure that it was Chivalry that was the issue, especially in PvP? I just don't see it.

The Resist Spells skill needs something of a buff. Now, during the implementation of these changes, would be an excellent time to do it. Perhaps have a chance, at 120, to resist more stuff entirely?

Any way you can un-couple the effectiveness of the Feint special move on the Leafblade from Bushido? It doesn't really make fictional sense. There may be elf samurai now, but there wouldn't have been prior to Heartwood's reappearance in the Yew trees.

If the PvM intent of these changes (I realize the intent was mostly PvP-oriented but there's obviously some PvM intent in there as well) was to nerf the sampire, be aware that the primary strengths of that class come from the ability to combine the high damage of the samurai, defensive capabilities of the samurai, and leaches of vampire form from necromancy. These changes scarcely touch those. It will, make no mistake, be something of a nerf. But good sampires, as you have already seen in this thread, are already adapting.

I cannot help but smile every time I look at the bandage changes.

-Galen's player

 

[Malek234]

OMG A Poisoning change........ Only been asking for about 4 yrs ill have to test this out and see how it works. And to the person talking about spamming infectious strike people just spam greater cure pots with no ep of any type and cure lethal every time so this i can see being a good change

 

[Ainlor]

Initially I was disgusted... But after a few reads I consider most of these changes fair and very necessary. Thank you devs.

 

[William20]

A couple other things that could be done in the name of balancing and for the sake of RP in this MMORPG:

Please do not allow necromancy and chivalry to coexist on a template.
Necromancy and chivalry are opposites, a template should be restricted to one or the other.

Please do not allow ninjitsu and bushido to coexist on a template.
This isn't as rampant as the aforementioned, but still shouldn't be possible.

Limit schools of magic on a template to a max of two.
I shouldn't be able to compete in pvm with a mage-mystic-necro-weaver.

Mages should not be able to equip shields. Please bring shields back to warrior templates.

Items such as the Quiver of Infinity should only have properties that would affect their associated skill templates, such as an archer, and should not have properties that benefit any others.

 

[Jonathan Baron]

I've been beating the new player experience drum too, Galen, but I did not find find resonance in the community and only saw lip service on the development end.

Although a revamp was promised this year, the year is half gone and the only change is that you can start in Ter Mir instead of New Haven if you want. New Haven, as designed in '00 for the edition aptly named Renaissance, does not exist today. Someone said the AI for the NPC mentors was lost but I don't know that for sure. All I have is the original design document and specification from '00.

Sticking to the topic, four years in the skill point penalty box for new players in the most fundamental of game balance issues.

Significant tactical artifacts and crafted skill adding items help but they're beyond the reach of new players in most cases, especially the former. Plus it's like the idea of catching up to an older brother in age. The veteran players who have the knowledge of these and the ability to afford them already have 20 more available skill points to begin with. Veteran rewards should be visible, but never tactical.

Finally, requiring four years to be able to build complete characters makes no sense when the game itself only guarantees six months of UO existence at any time. A veteran reward is a defacto promise. In this case it is a promise that can't be kept.

The oldest assumption in this still new medium is market saturation yet it has proven false every year. Simply put, people think there is a fixed number of customers out there at any time.....100k, 500k, one million, ten million - with most people considering each figure the limit at any given time in the 30 year history of the MMO as we know it. It is flawed thinking. Always has been.

You don't build a game world by luring people away from another one. You can add to one certainly but each successful online game in the history of the medium has created its own audience. Just look at UO. How many players you know began playing online games because of UO? How many have only played UO? If you had emptied out all the Western online games extant when World of Warcraft debuted the number would have been but a small fraction of the WoW player base. And that didn't happen.

Some might say no game has ever resurged after decline. Proof to the contrary is the game you play. UO rapidly doubled the numbers it had achieved at its release peak four years after it had had begun its decline. Among the features of the expansion that did it? A wholesale revamp of the new player experience.

Forgive me for straying from the topic to revisit this subject yet again. Abolishing, at last, the new player skill cap serves both this subject, however, and the other.

William20:

What you say makes perfect sense of course. However it is a move toward fixed character class which, to me at least, feels antithetical to the larger ethos of this game....yeah, sorry....I had to use that damned word, ethos, again....love that silly word
-