Classic Shard #2

[Evlar]

And on a lighter note...

@Ahuaeyjnkxs

Ahu: Noooooooooooo!

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

 

[o2bavr6]

Here's a rather interesting critique of UO that might be worth reading...

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/sempiternal/112007/695_Why-Electronic-Arts-Ultima-Online-Sucks

WOW, I could not have said it better myself.

So So True.

 

[o2bavr6]

And on a lighter note...

@Ahuaeyjnkxs

Ahu: Noooooooooooo!

I gave my toy doll that came with LBR away to a friends kid

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

If Ultima Online is ever going to be recognized as more than the grandfather of MMOGs and the MMO with the greatest reversal of potential ever, there are two major points that need serious attention;

1. Believable World. When Lord British and Lord Blackthorn were in charge of Ultima Online, the integrity of the medieval virtual world was strong and healthy. Ultima Online was at it’s finest, it was a believable medieval fantasy virtual world and was therefore highly immersive; more than any game previous. This immersion is the “magic” that current UO and many newer MMOs lack. There were very few limits on the freedoms of players and almost all aspects of the game world were interactive and dependent upon the actions of players. The game focused on and revolved around the players themselves, not the content. It was the community and people that were important to the game experience, not the pre-programmed NPC content.

Under the supervision of British and Blackthorn, UO did not have giant cartoon-like snowmen and snowflakes, rainbow colored armor, purple spikey-haired elves, flip-flop wearing ninjas, or neon swords with statistics plastered all over them. All aspects of the game fit the medieval theme. Building a reasonably believable world must have originally been one of the main goals and visions for Ultima Online.

In addition, Ultima Online was a quality product and the gameplay was highly balanced; it's likely that the developers, including British and Blackthorn, were some of the most experienced players and used their first-hand gameplay experience to further develop UO. Lord British and Lord Blackthorn were probably the filters that kept most of the poor development ideas out of their virtual world. Because, after they left UO, the floodgates opened with all sorts of foolish game development occurring, such as mirrored attached worlds with two different sets of rules. The original game balance and virtual world that Garriott and Long had created was destroyed by the Electronic Arts Inc. employees that were appointed to take over

After over seven years of poor development from Electronic Arts, Ultima Online is limping along as a hodge-podge MMOG. UO has become nothing more than a conglomeration of ideas stolen from other successful MMOGs and therefore no longer offers players a unique experience. There's very little reason left to play UO, since the same PvM game designs that UO is now copying are found in newer MMOGs offering better graphics and technology. The integrity of the world is also ruined with forcefields, parallel worlds, the ability to carry items in death, infinite NPC supplies, giant insect mounts, ridable pastel colored dogs, and even sunglasses; EA might as well add laser cannons at this point - it would not hurt the game that much more.

Clearly, the goals and visions of creating a reasonably believeable medieval virtual world were lost when the talent left UO and EA took over. The virtual world began to suffer as it was torn apart and morphed into a mere online PvM content game by the sophomoric MMO developers that followed. Origin Inc., will always be known as the first company that created a truly massive online world and Electronic Arts Inc. will always be known as the first company to destroy an online world.



2. Heroes & Villains. "Without villains, there can be no heroes.” A game, or any entertainment medium, is flat, predictable, and utterly lacking in conflict, tension, and suspense without a worthy intelligent villain, see The Worthy Villain . “The villain is the main source of conflict and tension and suspense -- those necessary qualities in all of literature. Without a worthy villain, there cannot be a worthy hero. Whether the hero wants to win back the love of a woman, escape from prison, rescue a child, nail a serial killer, or save the world, his quest must be difficult and its outcome uncertain if we are to keep turning the pages. That’s the job of the antagonist. As Christopher Vogel writes in his essential book THE WRITER’S JOURNEY, “The function of the Shadow [villain] in drama is to challenge the hero and give her a worthy opponent in the struggle.”

An online world is no different, if there are no worthy villains, then there are no worthy heroes; the game lacks conflict, tension and suspense and our interest in participating in such a game is much more easily lost. When Ultima Online was a virtual world full of villain players, there was always a large portion of the player base actively playing the game, even into the wee hours of the night. It was the conflict that drove the game. The game was exciting enough to play that it was always highly populated with active players. Even though there may still be 100,000 Ultima Online subscriptions left today, its painfully obvious that most do not spend very much time playing Ultima Online anymore.

I read this, and I decided I needed to post one more time in this thread.

I could not have written this article any better if I tried everyday until the last day of my life. There is nothing, and I mean nothing, said in this article that I disagree with. If ever any single thing has been written that sums up my feelings about what has happened to Ultima Online...it is this.

I quoted the article in it's entirety because I know that many will just scroll past the link...and I believe it is important that everyone that wants a Classic Shard reads that article, becaues it is essentially canon to this discussion.

 

[Derium of ls]

If Ultima Online is ever going to be recognized as more than the grandfather of MMOGs and the MMO with the greatest reversal of potential ever, there are two major points that need serious attention;

1. Believable World. When Lord British and Lord Blackthorn were in charge of Ultima Online, the integrity of the medieval virtual world was strong and healthy. Ultima Online was at it’s finest, it was a believable medieval fantasy virtual world and was therefore highly immersive; more than any game previous. This immersion is the “magic” that current UO and many newer MMOs lack. There were very few limits on the freedoms of players and almost all aspects of the game world were interactive and dependent upon the actions of players. The game focused on and revolved around the players themselves, not the content. It was the community and people that were important to the game experience, not the pre-programmed NPC content.

Under the supervision of British and Blackthorn, UO did not have giant cartoon-like snowmen and snowflakes, rainbow colored armor, purple spikey-haired elves, flip-flop wearing ninjas, or neon swords with statistics plastered all over them. All aspects of the game fit the medieval theme. Building a reasonably believable world must have originally been one of the main goals and visions for Ultima Online.

In addition, Ultima Online was a quality product and the gameplay was highly balanced; it's likely that the developers, including British and Blackthorn, were some of the most experienced players and used their first-hand gameplay experience to further develop UO. Lord British and Lord Blackthorn were probably the filters that kept most of the poor development ideas out of their virtual world. Because, after they left UO, the floodgates opened with all sorts of foolish game development occurring, such as mirrored attached worlds with two different sets of rules. The original game balance and virtual world that Garriott and Long had created was destroyed by the Electronic Arts Inc. employees that were appointed to take over.

After over seven years of poor development from Electronic Arts, Ultima Online is limping along as a hodge-podge MMOG. UO has become nothing more than a conglomeration of ideas stolen from other successful MMOGs and therefore no longer offers players a unique experience. There's very little reason left to play UO, since the same PvM game designs that UO is now copying are found in newer MMOGs offering better graphics and technology. The integrity of the world is also ruined with forcefields, parallel worlds, the ability to carry items in death, infinite NPC supplies, giant insect mounts, ridable pastel colored dogs, and even sunglasses; EA might as well add laser cannons at this point - it would not hurt the game that much more.

Clearly, the goals and visions of creating a reasonably believeable medieval virtual world were lost when the talent left UO and EA took over. The virtual world began to suffer as it was torn apart and morphed into a mere online PvM content game by the sophomoric MMO developers that followed. Origin Inc., will always be known as the first company that created a truly massive online world and Electronic Arts Inc. will always be known as the first company to destroy an online world.


taken from http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/sempiternal/112007/695_Why-Electronic-Arts-Ultima-Online-Sucks

thank you for the post Evlar!

THIS says it ALL.

 

[Derium of ls]

damn you Morgana you're just a bit quicker than I am

 

[Evlar]

I thought that article might whet your appetites

 

[Guido_LS]

I guess, but the introduction of Tram/LBR was a bad idea because it divided the population and ruined the communities that were built and AoS with item based play pretty much destroyed what UO used to be all about.

And you are correct there are many definitions of classic: mine is pretty much UO before Tram. But in the end we all have opinions and everyone knows that opinions are like _________ everyone has one

There are very few, and I do mean FEW, here that are calling for split facets again. That's just the weak sister argument being thrown out by people who are for no holds barred PK'ing (and yes, those of us with an IQ of more than 2 know there is a difference between PK'ing and PvP) against those that, while we may not care to participate in full blown PvP, are willing to participate and live in a world where there is a greater risk than a headless coming along. But not at the complete and total expense of no checks and balances.

I hate to keep beating the same dead horse in the head, but the simple things, like basic stat loss on resurrection, did NOTHING to curtail the grief play that was a rampant problem pre-Renaissance, and yes, still exists to a degree today. That some people want to pretend otherwise does not make it any less true. The fact that so many of a select group are crapping their pants at the thought of anything more severe than a slap on their UM wrist is all the proof that I, and a LOT of others, need to see to show that things are on the right track in the discussion.

 

[Evlar]

...and just for chuckles, take a look at the description of this little MMO game.

http://www.g4g.it/download/comment.php?dlid=2709&ENGINEsessID=f93f3cff6b3ef6201f8e65b26a8f2621

...remind anyone of anything? The answer is in the game description

 

[phantus]

So while many of us are debating about a classic shard you see fit to troll and do whatever you can to prevent it and make it sound a bad idea... nice.

That's a trammie for ya

This is why it's like playing chess with an 8 year old BuzZzZ. At no time have I ever said a classic shard was a bad idea. Not only do I think it's a good idea I believe it will be initially very successful. If you take the time to read the responses of the people you are accusing of things instead of jumping to conclusions because someone doesn't agree with your take on things you might understand that. Then again, the chances of that are no better than the chances of you sounding like you have something more to say other than you are a scared trammy responses.

This thread and the last are worthless wastes of time. A waste I indulge in because there is little more to discuss on these boards and the last set of discussions got me all riled up and full of opinion. When there is some actual consideration to creating this shard and not just a passing mention by Wild West Cal to get people to show interest in current UO I will change my opinion. Advertising is all it is. You think it a coincidence it was mentioned when there is a large sweeping faction(pvp) changes added to current UO? Look beyond the obvious.

 

[o2bavr6]

There are very few, and I do mean FEW, here that are calling for split facets again. That's just the weak sister argument being thrown out by people who are for no holds barred PK'ing (and yes, those of us with an IQ of more than 2 know there is a difference between PK'ing and PvP) against those that, while we may not care to participate in full blown PvP, are willing to participate and live in a world where there is a greater risk than a headless coming along. But not at the complete and total expense of no checks and balances.

I hate to keep beating the same dead horse in the head, but the simple things, like basic stat loss on resurrection, did NOTHING to curtail the grief play that was a rampant problem pre-Renaissance, and yes, still exists to a degree today. That some people want to pretend otherwise does not make it any less true. The fact that so many of a select group are crapping their pants at the thought of anything more severe than a slap on their UM wrist is all the proof that I, and a LOT of others, need to see to show that things are on the right track in the discussion.

I understand where you are coming from but the one thing in Pre-Ren UO that made it so successful,at least to use vets, was the sweaty palms feeling when doing something such as mining.

Not knowing if a pker would come by and kill you to take all the ore or ingots that you just spent 3 hours working for was exhilarating. Yes it sucked to die and lose all your stuff, but after a while you got better and richer and before you knew it, you could defend yourself and surprise the pker and kill him. or you would have a couple of friends hide near you waiting for the pker to arrive and jump him.

To me the ability to kill anyone at anytime, outside of guard zone, is what is at the heart of the game and what actually builds the community.

 

[Llewen]

Time to do a little dissecting...

If Ultima Online is ever going to be recognized as more than the grandfather of MMOGs and the MMO with the greatest reversal of potential ever, there are two major points that need serious attention;

1. Believable World. When Lord British and Lord Blackthorn were in charge of Ultima Online, the integrity of the medieval virtual world was strong and healthy. Ultima Online was at it’s finest, it was a believable medieval fantasy virtual world and was therefore highly immersive; more than any game previous. This immersion is the “magic” that current UO and many newer MMOs lack. There were very few limits on the freedoms of players and almost all aspects of the game world were interactive and dependent upon the actions of players. The game focused on and revolved around the players themselves, not the content. It was the community and people that were important to the game experience, not the pre-programmed NPC content.

Under the supervision of British and Blackthorn, UO did not have giant cartoon-like snowmen and snowflakes, rainbow colored armor, purple spikey-haired elves, flip-flop wearing ninjas, or neon swords with statistics plastered all over them. All aspects of the game fit the medieval theme. Building a reasonably believable world must have originally been one of the main goals and visions for Ultima Online.

This is a load of crock. The world of Ultima Online has never been even remotely "believable", nor has it's world milieu or it's cultural or technological schema ever been even remotely consistent.

I'll just list off some of the first things I noticed in 1997 when I first played Ultima Online. I'm a history buff, and I love consistency in a game world, so I notice these details.

Here are some examples of what I am talking about:

- Viking longswords and Japanese katanas. They were from two entirely different cultures, different eras, and the technologies supporting their creation were also poles apart.

- And while we're on the subject of swords. How long did it take, and still does, to make a viking sword or a katana in UO? Maybe five minutes if you include mining and smelting the ore? And you can sell them or buy them for under 100gp?

I wasn't able to quickly find exact information on how long it took to make them, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that historically it might have taken a month, or longer, to make a single viking sword or katana, and a single viking longsword was worth the price of a dozen milking cows, which represented a small fortune. Similarly a quality katana was also worth a fortune.

No matter how you scale it, manufacture times and the prices of weapons in the early days of UO weren't even remotely believable. By contrast with the expense of ingredients and the time it takes to farm them, the effort involved in making a high end imbued weapon in UO these days, is much more "believable".

And this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to "classic" UO.

And on the subject of bright colours in UO, I posted this thread some time ago. In the context of that article and some of the discussion around a "classic" shard, some of you might find it interesting, or inflammatory I suppose...

In addition, Ultima Online was a quality product and the gameplay was highly balanced

And still more steaming horse crap. UO has always had "balance" issues. At no point in it's history was there not a fotm template or tactic that ruled the roost. I was there in the old days. I remember tank mages, and the infamous "hally whack". Claiming that "classic" UO was some paragon of gaming balance and bliss, is flat out nonsense.

And I won't even get into the use of the word "quality" and the whole subject of server crashes, lag, reverts, bugs, dupes, and the list goes on. The UO of today has a far higher standard of "quality" than UO did in it's early years, no matter how you look at it. Unless of course your memory is fatally flawed, as this writer's appears to be.

I could continue on and rip that entire article to shreds if I was in the mood. For the most part it is sentimental hogwash.

I'm not against a classic shard. I think it would do very well, at least at first. But let's keep the fantasy in the game, and not let it extend to our memories of what UO really was, or what it is today. The game has never been perfect, and never will be. There was something special about UO back then, but that had less to do with the game itself than it did with the fact that it was one of the first of it's kind.

UO was special, but let's not build it up to be something it never was, and let's not use those false memories to **** all over the excellent work that has been done on the game since then. I realize that the supporters of a classic shard don't agree with this, but in my opinion UO today is a much more interesting game than it was back then, with far more depth, and far more room for creative game play.

 

[Bc-]

Always easy to dissect a post when you only take out certain parts

Ahhh selective criticism... the made in China of the literary world!

This topic is turning south fast, I think it is time for me to jettison from it before the taint rubs off on me.

I will see you guys on the Classic server, till then stay fit and have fun! Body break!

 

[Coldren]

I've come to the realization that those who are so adamantly against a classic shard are never going to change their minds no matter how many logical arguments you make.

They confuse those of us in favor of a classic shard with those lost in nostalgia, somehow defective in our memories of what we experienced and enjoyed and are somehow in denial of the realities of the time. Apparently in need of psychiatric help.

The sane amongst us have never denied there were not bugs or balance issues.

The sane amongst us have never denied there were issues with PKs, necessitating the need for Tram in the first place even if it wasn't the ideal solution.

The sane amongst us has never disagreed with the fact that it will take some resources to initially set up. (Although I will strongly contest that it will continue to draw resources, because if the Dev team finds it doesn't succeed in the way they want it to, they can quite literally leave it as is and let players play on it at their own risk. )

The sane amongst us aren't old men and women with Alzheimer's - We do, quite clearly, remember EXACTLY what the world was like.

It had issues, but for some of us, it sure as hell was a lot better than the loot ***** fest that requires spreadsheets to play effectively, spread out over vast tracks of wasted, useless land, sprinkled with neon elves and ninjas, god awful (Or as some prefer to call it, "Creative and Varied") housing designs that have no cohesion to the them of the world. That is what UO has become.

I'd advise anyone listening to do the following: Let it go. Mythic doesn't care. Find an alternative. You'll be glad you did.




Actually, I take that back. There must be something wrong with my memory. Until recently:

I had forgotten how hard it used to be to fight mongbats without 50 weapon skill, and you didn't have anything but a weapon because you didn't start with enough money for both weapons and armor.

I had forgotten what it was like to visit Sosaria and actually find players (numerous by modern UO standards.. 10 to 20 different ones in a given play session.. even during non-primetime hours) in cities other than Brit/Luna.

I had forgotten how nice it was to travel the lands and see houses that fit the theme.

I had forgotten what it was like where there was no need for comma's in the price of an item on a vendor.

I had forgotten how useful Plate used to be.

I had forgotten the rush you feel when you come across someone, and you're not sure if they're going to kill you or not, and the levity that accompanies finding out that even though that uncertainty is there, being happy that they were friendly and cordial - And realizing this is the case the majority of the time.

I had forgotten how frustrating it can be to lose your stuff to a monster or player, but I had also forgotten how fulfilling it was when you got it back without spending weeks to get it.

I had forgotten how valuable a real crafter used to be.

I had forgotten how RP guilds used to find creative ways to stand out, but still fit in with the world around them.

I had forgotten how valuable housing space really was.

I had forgotten the great value of MIB's.. Guess I'll have to start fishing again!

I had forgotten that I now take for granted the stability of most servers, but that as bad as things could be or sometimes were, it really wasn't that bad.

I had forgotten that weekly, scheduled events are not only possible, they are done far more frequently that I have time to participate in!

I had forgotten what a creative team of programmers can do outside the game to help facilitate community other than throw up or speak on message boards.

... So yeah, I guess there is something wrong with my memory. Thankfully, I've remedied that situation.

Regardless, there's my worthless 2 gold coins on the issue. Enjoy the conversation, everyone.

 

[Llewen]

Always easy to dissect a post when you only take out certain parts

The entire post is up there for you to read. As I stated, I could have torn the entire post apart if I had been in the mood.

Possible reasons for me not responding to every single letter and punctuation mark in a post:

- I've got better things to do than write a ten thousand word essay in response to a single post. Some may find that ironic given the amount of posting I have done recently, but there it is. I'm not sure if I spent 24 hours a day posting on Stratics that I could respond to every point made in every post.

- I don't feel that every point merits a response.

- I don't feel that every point requires a response.

- I feel that others have already responded adequately to a given point I haven't responded to.

- I simply missed it. Yes, I am human, and I do make mistakes.

- And the list goes on...

 

[o2bavr6]

This is a load of crock. The world of Ultima Online has never been even remotely "believable", nor has it's world milieu or it's cultural or technological schema ever been even remotely consistent.

I interpret the "believable" statement as; there were no laws. People did what they wanted when they wanted and could say what they wanted, sort of like real life. It allowed the community to police itself.

Yes there were weapons that did not belong in a Medieval time, but then we would have only have few weapons to use, so they embellished a bit, so what. Seems to me you are taking it to literally.. Now when it came to Lord Blackthorns Revenge and the stupid mechanical creatures I am with you 100%. those were just too over the top.

And still more steaming horse crap. UO has always had "balance" issues. At no point in it's history was there not a fotm template or tactic that ruled the roost. I was there in the old days. I remember tank mages, and the infamous "hally whack". Claiming that "classic" UO was some paragon of gaming balance and bliss, is flat out nonsense.

Yes there were balance issues but every combat template could kill each other. Tank mages were the most used, i know I was one of them, but this was partially due to the ease of travel because we could Recall to places.

My tank mage had a katana of vanq that could kill any other tank mage almost at will, and I wouldn't even use magic. But that did not mean I was a god at PvP and didn't die, because I did many, many times.

Most people in those days would just run instead of actually trying to fight, so inevitably they died. Yes the explode flamestrike halberd hit was gimp, but it was easily overcome with a greater heal cast. Dont forget that with protection on in those days your spells did not get interrupted.

You should not dismiss everything because you had trouble competing or using your noodle to get around some of the gimpness.

Remember pissing off mages with magic reflection? they would cast magic arrow to remove it and we would recast it again, forcing them to magic arrow us again. It all came down to tactics.

 

[Llewen]

Most people in those days would just run instead of actually trying to fight, so inevitably they died.

Which highlights one of the major differences between UO today, and UO back then. The sheep are protected, so hunting them is pointless. There is still plenty of pvp to be had, but there is a really good chance that as long as the numbers are even they will stand and fight, and they just might kick your ass.

You brought up tactics (not quoted, you can read the original post if you like). People talk about tactics as though UO was some kind of high level chess match back then. There are just as many tactics, moves and counter moves available today, in fact I think there are far more. In fact there are so many that a skilled pvp'r needs to learn how to keep it simple and not get caught up in all the choices that can be made.

I don't have a problem with the idea of a classic shard. I did at first, but most of my reservations in that regard are gone. What I do have a problem with is the misinformation that is spread regarding the classic era, and how many hold it up as some paragon of gaming virtue. It was fun, it was special, but it was far from perfect.

I also have a real problem with people advocating for a classic shard using it as an excuse to bash the game as it exists today. UO today is a special game. Go spend some time in other MMO's and you will see what I mean. There is a reason why veterans who leave UO keep coming back, and a reason why I always advise those thinking of quitting to not burn any bridges and store everything of value that they can in their bank when they cancel their subscriptions.

UO is a good game. UO was a good game in the "classic era" and it is still a good game today. In fact in my opinion it is a better game today than it was back then, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, including those who disagree with me, but if you start bashing UO, I will respond if I am in a position to.

Development mistakes have been made, it's inevitable with any MMO. But the problem with an MMO is that mistakes, once made, can be very hard to reverse in a way that doesn't do even more damage to the franchise. And the developers of UO have had thirteen years in which to make plenty of mistakes.

Having said that, a lot of good development decisions have been made, and excellent work done. It isn't a black and white issue, "Old UO good! New UO bad! *grunt*". There were good things and bad things about "classic" UO, and there are good things and bad things about UO as it exists today. But overall, in my opinion, UO is a better game today than it has ever been, with a lot more interesting game play options, and a lot fewer serious problems.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

I've come to the realization that those who are so adamantly against a classic shard are never going to change their minds no matter how many logical arguments you make.

They confuse those of us in favor of a classic shard with those lost in nostalgia, somehow defective in our memories of what we experienced and enjoyed and are somehow in denial of the realities of the time. Apparently in need of psychiatric help.

The sane amongst us have never denied there were not bugs or balance issues.

The sane amongst us have never denied there were issues with PKs, necessitating the need for Tram in the first place even if it wasn't the ideal solution.

The sane amongst us has never disagreed with the fact that it will take some resources to initially set up. (Although I will strongly contest that it will continue to draw resources, because if the Dev team finds it doesn't succeed in the way they want it to, they can quite literally leave it as is and let players play on it at their own risk. )

The sane amongst us aren't old men and women with Alzheimer's - We do, quite clearly, remember EXACTLY what the world was like.

It had issues, but for some of us, it sure as hell was a lot better than the loot ***** fest that requires spreadsheets to play effectively, spread out over vast tracks of wasted, useless land, sprinkled with neon elves and ninjas, god awful (Or as some prefer to call it, "Creative and Varied") housing designs that have no cohesion to the them of the world. That is what UO has become.

I'd advise anyone listening to do the following: Let it go. Mythic doesn't care. Find an alternative. You'll be glad you did.




Actually, I take that back. There must be something wrong with my memory. Until recently:

I had forgotten how hard it used to be to fight mongbats without 50 weapon skill, and you didn't have anything but a weapon because you didn't start with enough money for both weapons and armor.

I had forgotten what it was like to visit Sosaria and actually find players (numerous by modern UO standards.. 10 to 20 different ones in a given play session.. even during non-primetime hours) in cities other than Brit/Luna.

I had forgotten how nice it was to travel the lands and see houses that fit the theme.

I had forgotten what it was like where there was no need for comma's in the price of an item on a vendor.

I had forgotten how useful Plate used to be.

I had forgotten the rush you feel when you come across someone, and you're not sure if they're going to kill you or not, and the levity that accompanies finding out that even though that uncertainty is there, being happy that they were friendly and cordial - And realizing this is the case the majority of the time.

I had forgotten how frustrating it can be to lose your stuff to a monster or player, but I had also forgotten how fulfilling it was when you got it back without spending weeks to get it.

I had forgotten how valuable a real crafter used to be.

I had forgotten how RP guilds used to find creative ways to stand out, but still fit in with the world around them.

I had forgotten how valuable housing space really was.

I had forgotten the great value of MIB's.. Guess I'll have to start fishing again!

I had forgotten that I now take for granted the stability of most servers, but that as bad as things could be or sometimes were, it really wasn't that bad.

I had forgotten that weekly, scheduled events are not only possible, they are done far more frequently that I have time to participate in!

I had forgotten what a creative team of programmers can do outside the game to help facilitate community other than throw up or speak on message boards.

... So yeah, I guess there is something wrong with my memory. Thankfully, I've remedied that situation.

Regardless, there's my worthless 2 gold coins on the issue. Enjoy the conversation, everyone.

Wow, I hadn't realized how much I forgot myself.

 

[o2bavr6]

Which highlights one of the major differences between UO today, and UO back then. The sheep are protected, so hunting them is pointless. There is still plenty of pvp to be had, but there is a really good chance that as long as the numbers are even they will stand and fight, and they just might kick your ass.

Back then there were many times when I was in a dungeon with 8 blues and suddenly 2 reds would appear and every blue but me and maybe one other would recall out. If all the blues stayed and fought the 2 reds would have died immediately.

As for protecting the sheep, yes that is was Tram does. There is not much PvP to be had at all anymore in Fel other than Champs spawns. I challenge you to find one person in any Fel dungeon that does not have a Champ spawn in it, like shame. And the ones that do, good luck finding someone in the levels or areas that are far from the champ spawn.

You brought up tactics (not quoted, you can read the original post if you like). People talk about tactics as though UO was some kind of high level chess match back then. There are just as many tactics, moves and counter moves available today, in fact I think there are far more. In fact there are so many that a skilled pvp'r needs to learn how to keep it simple and not get caught up in all the choices that can be made.

Yes there are more tactics today but they are due to the ITEMS in the game, not due to players skill levels.

It was a sad day when items became more important than skills in the game, at least to me.

I don't have a problem with the idea of a classic shard. I did at first, but most of my reservations in that regard are gone. What I do have a problem with is the misinformation that is spread regarding the classic era, and how many hold it up as some paragon of gaming virtue. It was fun, it was special, but it was far from perfect.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because UO as it is today is garbage compared to pre-ren days. but again this is my opinion, just like you have yours.

And no it wasn't perfect back then but it was still light years ahead of today's care bear game. Again in my opinion. You see the Devs decided that we dont want the new players to quit out of frustration so split the worlds and made the game item based. this allowed players to compete since skill no longer mattered and only items did.

I also have a real problem with people advocating for a classic shard using it as an excuse to bash the game as it exists today. UO today is a special game. Go spend some time in other MMO's and you will see what I mean. There is a reason why veterans who leave UO keep coming back, and a reason why I always advise those thinking of quitting to not burn any bridges and store everything of value that they can in their bank when they cancel their subscriptions.

UO is a good game. UO was a good game in the "classic era" and it is still a good game today. In fact in my opinion it is a better game today than it was back then, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, including those who disagree with me, but if you start bashing UO, I will respond if I am in a position to.

This is where you and I part ways. You like today's game, I hate it. You like chocolate I like Vanilla. so we will agree to disagree here.

You may flame away at me for this but I will say it again "UO IS GARBAGE TODAY"

Having said that, a lot of good development decisions have been made, and excellent work done. It isn't a black and white issue, "Old UO good! New UO bad! *grunt*". There were good things and bad things about "classic" UO, and there are good things and bad things about UO as it exists today. But overall, in my opinion, UO is a better game today than it has ever been, with a lot more interesting game play options, and a lot fewer serious problems.

Yes there were good and bad decisions in the classic game, but most decisions were made to improve things, such as stat/skill locks to you could control them and stop them from dropping.

Again here we will have to agree to disagree because I cant think of one good thing that has been done since Ren came out....

thinks: housing changes? nope...
new skills? nope...
new dungeons? nope, they just made the old ones graveyards.
new items? nope, they were just implemented to be time sinks for people to keep them as paying subscribers, it had nothing to do with better content.

What we did get was:
a destroyed economy.
imbalanced skills, in regards to pvp and in some cases PvM.
silly items that destroyed the crafting community.
Destruction of the magery skill.
Dupes and bugs that have never been fixed.
No in game GM support.

I'm sure I could add a whole page more of stuff.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

What I adore about the subject line for this thread is the implication that there's only 2 custom rules shard threads. In reality there's closer to a dozen.

-Galen's player

 

[Derium of ls]

- Viking longswords and Japanese katanas. They were from two entirely different cultures, different eras, and the technologies supporting their creation were also poles apart.

Not trying to argue, but Vikings first appeared in northern England during the dark ages and attacked churches and other unarmed places. So to me it's 100% believable that by the middle ages we had their technology. As for Katanas, I'm pretty sure they were invented in the middle ages to replace the Tachi, and it quickly became a standard sword in Asia. My guess would be since the Roman empire was the strongest in the east around this time, but still had it's grip on the west that their superior trading (before the black death) would have brought the sword west rather quickly. But most of this is just guessing.

 

[o2bavr6]

Not trying to argue, but Vikings first appeared in northern England during the dark ages and attacked churches and other unarmed places. So to me it's 100% believable that by the middle ages we had their technology. As for Katanas, I'm pretty sure they were invented in the middle ages to replace the Tachi, and it quickly became a standard sword in Asia. My guess would be since the Roman empire was the strongest in the east around this time, but still had it's grip on the west that their superior trading (before the black death) would have brought the sword west rather quickly. But most of this is just guessing.

The medieval times were between the 5th and 15th centuries.

The viking sword was first invented 700 - 1000 ad.

The katana was first invented in 1390' to 1580's.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Not trying to argue, but Vikings first appeared in northern England during the dark ages and attacked churches and other unarmed places. So to me it's 100% believable that by the middle ages we had their technology. As for Katanas, I'm pretty sure they were invented in the middle ages to replace the Tachi, and it quickly became a standard sword in Asia. My guess would be since the Roman empire was the strongest in the east around this time, but still had it's grip on the west that their superior trading (before the black death) would have brought the sword west rather quickly. But most of this is just guessing.

More to the point, and I think this is what the author of the article was saying, the katanas and viking swords in Classic UO actually looked like realistic weapons. They weren't pink, or orange, and they actually looked like historically accurate weapons. Not every weapon added to UO since the Classic Era have been completely unrealistic...but there have been several added that are. Not to mention things like sunglasses. While the Chinese had tinted glasses going all the way back to 1300, they most certainly were not around during the medieval period in Europe.

One can nit-pik the article, but the fact remains that everything the author said is correct.

@ Llewyn:

It's good to see that you have changed your mind about having a Classic Era Shard (or so you claim). I am still not certain why you continue to post in opposition of, if that is the case...but its not really for me to tell you what to post and what not to post.

As for your taking "offense" at people trashing the current game...there is not much that anyone is going to be able to do to change that. There are people all over the world that disagree on all sorts of things. Taking offense because someone doesn't share your opinion is your right, but I think you might find yourself offended very often about a great many things.

For example, I could probably go and round up a couple of hundred thousand WoW players that would not only disagree with your opinions about "the current game", but they would disagree with my opinions about "the Classic Era" as well.

The fact of the matter is, some of us...admittedly a minority...do not care for the game in its current state. Many of the people that got fed up with the direction of the game simply moved on, and some of us have simply stuck by the game, hoping it would get better...foolishly, but stubbornly.

I will freely admit...I am so tired of what the devs have done to UO that I no longer have any interest in the game the way it is. Just as I am sure that there are many players that have no interest in a Classic Shard.

That's why it is better to have options for those that simply want something outside of what others want.

I think the biggest mistake fans of the current game make when discussing a Classic Shard is that they somehow believe that a case can be made for the current game to players like me. It can't. There is nothing short of rolling back the last 10 years of development that is going to keep my interest in this game any longer...and I am sure I do not speak for only myself when I say that.

It's great that you, and others, enjoy the current game as it is. Without you, and others like you, paying your subscriptions, the game would simply cease to operate. However, that does not entitle you, or anyone else, to any moral superiorty where development of the game is concerned. If the devs decide to make a Classic Shard, it will appeal to gamers that are not content with the current offering, and it will bring back players that left because they were not content with the offering at the time they left.

Arguing that those people are somehow unworthy, or lesser in any way, shows a selfish inclination towards entitlement that no UO player, regardless of how highly they think of themselves, deserves.

I believe that I have made my case for a Classic Shard. I believe that others have agreed. There are those that disagree, even though they will be essentially unaffected by it's creation, at least not directly...and there are those that have agreed with them as well.

From here, I think further discussion of this topic, in this environment, is pointless. The devs should have all of the information they need to make this decision.

That's the biggest reason I left the discussion, and the sole reason I will not be participating here any longer. All that could be said has pretty much been said...and more than should have been said has been said as well.

Later.

 

[Derium of ls]

The medieval times were between the 5th and 15th centuries.

The viking sword was first invented 700 - 1000 ad.

The katana was first invented in 1390' to 1580's.

ahh, so it still is possible the Viking Sword being there. But the Katana is a rather long stretch.

 

[Derium of ls]

More to the point...

I wasn't trying to argue or say they were wrong. Just picked that small part to have a discussion about

 

[Evlar]

- Viking longswords and Japanese katanas. They were from two entirely different cultures, different eras, and the technologies supporting their creation were also poles apart.

Not trying to argue, but Vikings first appeared in northern England during the dark ages and attacked churches and other unarmed places. So to me it's 100% believable that by the middle ages we had their technology. As for Katanas, I'm pretty sure they were invented in the middle ages to replace the Tachi, and it quickly became a standard sword in Asia. My guess would be since the Roman empire was the strongest in the east around this time, but still had it's grip on the west that their superior trading (before the black death) would have brought the sword west rather quickly. But most of this is just guessing.

Also forgot that Richard Chamberlain went to Japan and wielded a katana. He was a middle-aged person of European descent, might have brought some back with him.

What, nobody watched Shogun then?

Bah... I'll get my coat...

 

[Derium of ls]

Also forgot that Richard Chamberlain went to Japan and wielded a katana. He was a middle-aged person of European descent, might have brought some back with him.

What, nobody watched Shogun then?

Bah... I'll get my coat...

I do remember a movie where a guy went back and introduced his "boom-stick" to the middle ages... I want Shotguns in UO!!

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

attempts to derail the thread, from either side of the "argument" are going to be deemed eternally laughable contributions.

I am Spuhchial, so I know it. hahahaha

Derium you're talking about Army of Darkness... which is the guild (named humorously after the movie) I got in after Tiffric passed on and the devs gave the guild to someone that noone knew and admitted to be a very evil necromancer, defeating the whole logic of my UO experience in the first place. Watching people that deserved the AMT cry broke my heart and turned me into a senseless killing machine.

I didn't really like the guild or the people in it, they were the most infamous in UO history... anyways that dosen't matter any longer...

 

[o2bavr6]

ahh, so it still is possible the Viking Sword being there. But the Katana is a rather long stretch.

Well the Katana in Europe is a stretch but the time line is correct.

14th century Japan is 200 years before the end of the middle ages.

 

[Derium of ls]

Well the Katana in Europe is a stretch but the time line is correct.

14th century Japan is 200 years before the end of the middle ages.

do we know around the date UO tries to copy in the middle ages? I know none of this matters at all. But Still cool to figure out.

 

[Evlar]

I do remember a movie where a guy went back and introduced his "boom-stick" to the middle ages... I want Shotguns in UO!!

...but they gave us a "Boom-Stick" that was some form of crook looking thing?

I'm waiting for the chainsaw

 

[Derium of ls]

...but they gave us a "Boom-Stick" that was some form of crook looking thing?

I'm waiting for the chainsaw

yeah, you're probably right. A Shotgun might have balancing issues, it will never stand up to the Artis we have. But Chainsaws do have +2 damage against zombies (undead) so at least they will have the 'silver' tag to them!

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QFCNEfd9mQ8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QFCNEfd9mQ8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

I'm going to work, never lose perspective Avatar !

This is the time to remember.

ITS SOMETHING I HAVE TO DO ! I WAS THERE TOO !!!! BEFORE EVERYTHING ELSE ! I WAS LIKE YOU !

 

[gunneroforgin]

Ahh, a classic shrard, How wonderful. I dream of the old days, the complaining about the lack of new content and how dull the current content is. The lack of new players to kill. The reverse complaining of being greifed at every turn. The complaining about losing all your stuff. If you want a classic shard please think about it real hard, because the reason our game has evolved to where it is today is because players asked for all this new content.

If you get a classic shard I don't want to see any posts here on Stratics complaining about it. You got what you asked for. I will have no sympathy for it.

 

[o2bavr6]

do we know around the date UO tries to copy in the middle ages? I know none of this matters at all. But Still cool to figure out.

sorry no idea.

 

[Evlar]

Ahh, a classic shrard, How wonderful. I dream of the old days, the complaining about the lack of new content and how dull the current content is. The lack of new players to kill. The reverse complaining of being greifed at every turn. The complaining about losing all your stuff. If you want a classic shard please think about it real hard, because the reason our game has evolved to where it is today is because players asked for all this new content.

So smug in your own wonderfulness, that you had to post exactly the same comments, in two different threads...

*applause* (I trust the applause strokes your ego sufficiently)

Hopefully you're wonderful enough to understand there's two sides to every coin. Classic shard threads aside, just ask yourself a few things, which you can research the answer to at your hearts leisure...

How many people complain about varied aspects UO since AoS/Trammel implementation?

Are those complaints any more or less valid than issues people raised during the early years of UO?

Since AoS/Trammel implementation, are you suggesting that nobody complains about aspects of the game?

Whilst we're on the subject, have EA and the developers always been right with which changes they've brought to the game, in your opinion?

Which proportion of UO players is the largest in number, those who currently play the game, or those who no longer play the game, for whatever reason?

If you get a classic shard I don't want to see any posts here on Stratics complaining about it. You got what you asked for. I will have no sympathy for it.

You do realise, that if they're paying customers, they're just as entitled to complain, as you are about any aspects of version of the game you prefer.

Your post simply smacks of "I've got what I want. I don't want you to have what you want, but if you get it, you should never be as important as I am!"

Perhaps it would be better for you to assume your normal position in life...

 

[Nihilus]

Come on...are we really arguing about why Viking swords and Katanas were in UO as a reason for not making a classic shard? IQ's just suddenly drop or what?

Sosaria / Britannia is a fantasy world like Middle-earth or Discworld etc etc... In the original story it's an alternate dimension to our own (the Avatar being human from earth, passes through a moongate into Britannia). Garriott simply used the medieval european setting as a basis for his imagination, is that so hard to understand.

Why is gold called "Gold" and not some foreign Sosarian word, why is a guild called a guild and not some made up terminalogy from the Britannian lore, why are Cats in Brittannia, Cats are from Earth arn't they!?? Well the obvious answer is that so we can understand what the hell it is when we see it in game, so we can relate to it. We don't question this, so why question why some swords are Katanas so we can visually imagine what it might be like without relying too much on a pixelated sprite for representation.

End of.

 

[Derium of ls]

Come on...are we really arguing about why Viking swords and Katanas were in UO as a reason for not making a classic shard? IQ's just suddenly drop or what?

We are having a discussion about it, that's all. Nothing to do with a persons I.Q. We love this game, and like talking about it >_<

 

[o2bavr6]

We are having a discussion about it, that's all. Nothing to do with a persons I.Q. We love this game, and like talking about it >_<

I think he is referring to Llewens post, not so much our defense of them.

But in truth we probably shouldn't have given Llewens post a second though and just ignored it.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Looks like it's going to be another illuminatus masterpiece. Well if you like to call em that.

In a way, life is long, whatever happens to you, if you let them direct your flow of time, you are being misguided Avatar. Imbedded within those movies however is a blueprint ; and thats whats the creators are proud of, which inspires in turn a sense of "greatness" to humanity.

Some will think ; why isn't he afraid to write like this ?

Because I'm out of the game, I cannot play anymore and if we follow the lore to the trace, I also became immortal and eternal ! In "game" for all practical purposes !

There were some awesome contributions to this thread including Treb's... this guy has a fascinating collection of special UO lore that helps people remember.

And if you like to take it philosophically ; there is no way for any of you to tell if the "switch" between true life and spoonfed illuminatus pyramid ascension of false premises, has already taken place. Some have a clearer view of what time period ; isn't it cloudy ?

I AM META-TRON FROM THE 10TH DIMENTION ! kidding

sorry but me feels pretty joyous at the moment. The guardian has the full advantage over the earth right now, and many of you that help him walk amongst you like best friends ; oh they are few, but they have good coordination and know your weaknesses...

I'm... hysteric ... like ThAt... hee...

*breathes in*

People must think for themselves ! When does it start ?

Who in here is not evil and will challenge the guardian ? Britannia needs a champion !

Oh yes I almost forgot... while we're at it !

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See the child
With the golden hair
Yet eyes that snow the emptiness inside
Do we know
Can we understand just how he feels
Or have we really tried

See him now
As he stands alone
And watches children play a children's game
Simple child
He looks almost like the others
Yet they know he's not the same

Scorn not his simplicity
But rather try to love him all the more
Scorn not his simplicity
Oh no
Oh no

See him stare
Not recognizing the kind face
That only yesterday he loved
The loving face
Of a mother who can't understand what she's been guilty of

How she cried tears of happiness
The day the doctor told her it's a boy
Now she cries tears of helplessness
And thinks of all the things he can't enjoy

Scorn not his simplicity
But rather try to love him all the more
Scorn not his simplicity
Oh no
Oh no

Only he knows how to face the future hopefully
Surrounded by despair
He won't ask for your pity or your sympathy
But surely you should care

Scorn not his simplicity
But rather try to love him all the more
Scorn not his simplicity
Oh no
Oh no
Oh no

 

[lynxofeuropa08]

some really interesting ideas in here

i would pay for a classic shard, i hope it would stick.... and have pve'er as well as pvpers

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

It'll work !

As long as people can listen to a train of tought and discern what is politics, what is philosophy, what is science and what is lore.

It reminded me of this ; which is not to be taken as a political statement or a religious innuendo, I just found it hillarious that when you put all those 4 "cardinal" points away, what is left for us to grasp is an infime part, and thats where we grasp the significance of doing the same thing here. Something small will be left but it will grow, and "stick".

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[BuzZzZ]

What civilisation invented the flame strike?

 

[Nihilus]

I think he is referring to Llewens post, not so much our defense of them.

But in truth we probably shouldn't have given Llewens post a second though and just ignored it.

What he said.

 

[Llewen]

Come on...are we really arguing about why Viking swords and Katanas were in UO as a reason for not making a classic shard? IQ's just suddenly drop or what?

The only reason I brought them up is that further up in the thread you will find the statement that someone thought the classic era was more believable. My whole point was that the classic era is no more or less believable than the present era in UO. I could just as easily have gone into a myriad of other game play issues that were completely ridiculous in the classic era, and still are.

UO isn't a terribly "believable" game, and there is very little consistency in the world lore, or the rules set. At some point you just accept it for what it is, and have fun, whether you happen to long for the "classic" era, or enjoy the game as it exists today. Either that or you go find something else to do.

I'm not going to go looking for the post at this point but someone else said that he felt that the person saying the classic era was more believable was referring to the rules set. As in a wide open pvp, full loot environment, is more immersive and believable.

I'm not sure that that was the point that was being made, but I can accept that. Yes, a full loot, wide open pvp is perhaps more believable, but in my opinion, only if their are serious consequences for murder. There were consequences for murder in the classic era, not ones that particularly appealed to me, but they were there, so I will concede that point.

Is there anything else I can help you with?

 

[northwoodschopper]

The only reason I brought them up is that further up in the thread you will find the statement that someone thought the classic era was more believable. My whole point was that the classic era is no more or less believable than the present era in UO.

I'm not going to go looking for the post at this point but someone else said that he felt that the person saying the classic era was more believable was referring to the rules set. As in a wide open pvp, full loot environment, is more immersive and believable.

I'm not sure that that was the point that was being made, but I can accept that. Yes, a full loot, wide open pvp is perhaps more believable, but in my opinion, only if their are serious consequences for murder. There were consequences for murder in the classic era, not ones that particularly appealed to me, but they were there, so I will concede that point.

Is there anything else I can help you with?

the viking sword did somewhat fit since there was a norse helm too. the katana was kinda lame though, i always thought it should've been a saber instead.

 

[BuzZzZ]

I think some people here claim they want a classic shard when they actualy don't. They do it to to weaken the cause to those who do want it.

Again I ask, what real life civilisation invented the flame strike or the gate spell or the rune book?

 

[northwoodschopper]

flamestrike was probably invented by the greeks via greek fire. or you can go with moses vs the egyptians, didn't he call forth a piller of fire, though from above?

anyways, the big arguement about realism is just symantics. what people mean is consistency and believability. UO up until about 3rd dawn was consistent and believable to ultima's established lore from IV-VIII. things didn't pop out looking out of place, and UO's concepts were still fairly unique to itself.

 

[Llewen]

I think some people here claim they want a classic shard when they actualy don't. They do it to to weaken the cause to those who do want it.

"It'sh a cunshpirashy I tell ya! A cunshpirashy!"