Classic Shard #2

[eekamouse]

Two questions based on the sticky (http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=190295)

1) What exactly is wrong with bods and runics, if you can just make vanq/invul + gm moddifier weapons/armor? Take out the ability to reset BODs (to prevent scripters), and you have a nice system... imo.

2) What about Champ Spawns that don't drop PS's? Is that what the "Ilshenar potential" is about? Why not just have Ilshenar (with Fel ruleset) in from the get go? It would be a nice end game to shoot for, paragons and all. Fighting a Para Balron with 700 skill cap (while watching your back for raiders) would be a great experience, imo.

-Edit-

Also for reference...

Though I have no interest in any manifestation of a "classic shard". Here is a link to the Classic Shard #1 thread, which this one is an extension of. This will save you some hassle of looking for it later (since it will eventually get buried in the depths of UHall.

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=185487

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[eekamouse]

Here we go... re: runics....

A quick info thread that I just learned so anyone that doesn't quite understand which is better and why heres a small chart.

This is what each runic hammer adds to a weapon when crafted.


-------------------Durabilty--------Damage Mod----------Tactics/Archery
Dull Copper ---- Durable -------------------------------------- Accurate
Shadow -------- Durable ------------ Ruin -----------------------------------
Copper --------- Fortified ----------- Ruin -------------- Surpassingly Accurate
Bronze ---------- Fortified ---------- Might ------------- Surpassingly Accurate
Gold ---------- Indestructable ----- Force ------------- Eminently Accurate
Agapite ------ Indestructable ---- Power ------------- Eminently Accurate
Verite -------- Indestructable ---- Power ------------- Exceedingly Accurate
Valorite ------ Indestructable -- Vanquishing ------- Supremely Accurate

If they come exceptional it adds another 30% damage increase to weapon
or on simple terms adds another might.

Damage modifiers (ie. ruin, is added to the weapon before the exceptional is added.)


Base damage modifier to my understanding is as follows:

Ruin +1 damage
Might +3 damage
Force +5 damage
Power +7 damage
Vanquishing +9 damage

Now looted magic weapons do not come with exception, what you see on a looted magic weapon is what you get ie. Fortified/Might/Supassingly Accurate. This is exactly what you get nothing else. Now lets say you crafted a Copper runic weapon Fortified/Ruin/Supassingly Accurate/Exceptional now visionally looking at this you know for sure that Ruin is worst then the Might as a damage modifier, but the Exceptional added to this weapon makes that Ruin damage modifier in the middle of Might and Force giving into fact that exceptional give +3 damage and Ruin gives +1 thus making +4 damage add to the weapon. While the looted magic weapon is still giving +3 damage add for the Might modifier. Making the Runic weapon better. This is all I have to say on this subject I hope this helps alot of you out there. Thank you for your time.

 

[Ray_]

2) What about Champ Spawns that don't drop PS's? Is that what the "Ilshenar potential" is about? Why not just have Ilshenar (with Fel ruleset) in from the get go? It would be a nice end game to shoot for, paragons and all. Fighting a Para Balron with 700 skill cap (while watching your back for raiders) would be a great experience, imo.

Having Ilshenar in would just spread the playerbase too thin. One of the good things about pre-UO:R was that everyone was crammed in together and you couldn't farm for hours on end without ever seeing another player.

I personally don't care if higher-end mobs are added in, just as long as none of the new mounts are added at the same time.

 

[eekamouse]

Having Ilshenar in would just spread the playerbase too thin. One of the good things about pre-UO:R was that everyone was crammed in together and you couldn't farm for hours on end without ever seeing another player.

I personally don't care if higher-end mobs are added in, just as long as none of the new mounts are added at the same time.

But if there's only 1 or 2 Classic Shards (likely), it will probably be just the opposite... too crowded...

 

[Ray_]

They started accusing me after that, knowing how good a hacker I was,

This is the funniest thing I've read in a very long time. Thanks for that.

 

[Ray_]

But if there's only 1 or 2 Classic Shards (likely), it will probably be just the opposite... too crowded...

Then you open new shards or wait for the population to settle.

Ilshenar is a pretty big landmass with no player housing. It would be way too easy to farm mobs or resources will little to no risk.

 

[eekamouse]

Then you open new shards or wait for the population to settle.

Ilshenar is a pretty big landmass with no player housing. It would be way too easy to farm mobs or resources will little to no risk.

I just think only Brit + T2A will get old fast PvM wise. And yes, the shard needs to have good PvM ...and... good PvP

The risk will definitely be there. You can bet on that. The Balron just outside Chaos Gate will be a hot bed of fun.

Meer Town, Skel Drags, etc etc...

 

[fantasy10k]

dont really want one of the new monsters. Champs could work , but it should drop decos to houses in that case.

 

[eekamouse]

dont really want one of the new monsters. Champs could work , but it should drop decos to houses in that case.

Really? Decos? Not like Vanqs and Gold?

...

Decos?

 

[KalVasTENKI]

Two questions based on the sticky (http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=190295)

1) What exactly is wrong with bods and runics, if you can just make vanq/invul + gm moddifier weapons/armor? Take out the ability to reset BODs (to prevent scripters), and you have a nice system... imo.

2) What about Champ Spawns that don't drop PS's? Is that what the "Ilshenar potential" is about? Why not just have Ilshenar (with Fel ruleset) in from the get go? It would be a nice end game to shoot for, paragons and all. Fighting a Para Balron with 700 skill cap (while watching your back for raiders) would be a great experience, imo.

1A) Well , it causes a respectable drive to want to go out and PvM.
Kind of how back in the day was , was a lot of fun going out hunting and getting vanqs and gold.

2A) Well that takes the "classic" out of "classic shard" but in a way that is a good idea in my opinion.. For example make the Vanq and good armor drop a little higher to reward the fighters would be awesome.

 

[KalVasTENKI]

Having Ilshenar in would just spread the playerbase too thin. One of the good things about pre-UO:R was that everyone was crammed in together and you couldn't farm for hours on end without ever seeing another player.

Great point as well.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

The "Ilshenar later" came in because people were throwing out things like "well, you will just have a shard that will remain static forever".

That's never been the intention of most of us here.

As Ray stated, in the beginning the landmass should be kept as small as possible. I have often argued for Britannia only at launch, and then add the Lost Lands like 6 months to a year later. Ilshenar was mentioned because of all the "new" lands, it would probably be closest to fitting in with a Classic Shard.

Don't take this the wrong way eekamouse, I am not saying this as an attack...but if you think that Classic UO would be boring, why not just stay on your current shard...or join Siege? Siege has open PvP and it includes all the new content.

It's the new content that most of us are trying to get away from.

But, as I said, I don't think too many people have ever stated that the shard should never get new content...just not the new content that the current shards got (Trammel, AoS, Tokuno, Malas, that ridiculous Elf tree thing (Scriptwood? No, Heartwood...sorry), and Stygian Abyss).

I just think that the less land there is in the beginning, the more community will gel.

Also, think about it, the main reason most people go to the new areas is to farm the uber items that drop there. If the items weren't there, most people would lose interest. The original landmass and T2A were plenty of land to keep people interested at one time...and that was when the shards had a much higher population.

 

[the 4th man]

I agree about taking the classic out of classic, adding the tweaks makes it a dream shard then. Get the classic as it was, nothing more, nothing less.

It's like wanting a 67 chevelle, but give me the power doors, the AC, and an ipod adapter........classic goes out the window, as does value. You lose the originality.

 

[dinanm3atl]

Is this the new thread where all the experts that have no first hand knowledge make up random numbers to prove their point?


Also... is the classic shard live? I got some monies I want to spend

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Is this the new thread where all the experts that have no first hand knowledge make up random numbers to prove their point?

I think mods should delete any posts that throw out any made up numbers on either side of the argument by default!

 

[Tanivar]

But if there's only 1 or 2 Classic Shards (likely), it will probably be just the opposite... too crowded...

It won't be crowded, the PKer crowd will prevent that by once again driving the non-pvp players to Tram on another shard. People won't pay a monthly fee to be fun for others instead of having fun themselves.

Once the 'sheep', 'Trammies', or whatever we get refered to as, have gone elsewhere, to have fun for our monthly fee, the PKers will get bored and leave as they did 10 years ago. The Classic Shard will be a ghost town like fell on the regular shards.

Many of those who would return as mentioned in the other classic shard thread seem to think they will have many easy targets to kill endlessly. It wouldn't be that way for long, if at all.

But they can dream can't they.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I agree about taking the classic out of classic, adding the tweaks makes it a dream shard then. Get the classic as it was, nothing more, nothing less.

It's like wanting a 67 chevelle, but give me the power doors, the AC, and an ipod adapter........classic goes out the window, as does value. You lose the originality.

You said this before, and I responded, but I think the posts got buried in the discussion.

If you bought a '67 Chevelle (god forbid), and it had a warped rim, for example, and you replaced the rim with one that wasn't warped, would it make the car any less Classic?

Many of the changes people have suggested are simple things that make sense...like skill and stat locks. There is no valid argument against having skill and stat locks. Things like extra penalties for PKs, Ilshenar, etc...you are right, that is not remaining true to the Classic spirit of the shard, although it is highly debatable as to whether that is a good thing or not.

There were numerous bug fixes and tweaks that went in during the T2A Era...so which publish exactly do you have in mind?

We can all bicker and argue over details, but I think the key components of a Classic based shard would be:

- No Trammel
- No AoS properties of any kind
- No expansion content (new lands, artifacts, new monsters, new skills, etc.)
- Classic skills and spells
- Classic item system...Ruin, Vanq, etc.
- No transfers
- No Neon crap

Pretty much everything else is details. I, for one, would jump at the chance to play on a shard that had just those few things, and I wouldn't worry that much about other details, because it would be head and shoulders above what EA is currently offering.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

It won't be crowded, the PKer crowd will prevent that by once again driving the non-pvp players to Tram on another shard. People won't pay a monthly fee to be fun for others instead of having fun themselves.

They won't need to pay to do anything besides what they are already paying to do. No one is suggesting that the current shards be changed at all.

I know that you used to be for this idea, but I guess in the course of the debate, you have changed your mind?

I wish you would give Classic UO a chance before writing it off due to the lack of Trammel...but that's just me.

*btw...I like the new avatar...but I miss the puppy! *

 

[eekamouse]

The "Ilshenar later" came in because people were throwing out things like "well, you will just have a shard that will remain static forever".

That's never been the intention of most of us here.

As Ray stated, in the beginning the landmass should be kept as small as possible. I have often argued for Britannia only at launch, and then add the Lost Lands like 6 months to a year later. Ilshenar was mentioned because of all the "new" lands, it would probably be closest to fitting in with a Classic Shard.

Don't take this the wrong way eekamouse, I am not saying this as an attack...but if you think that Classic UO would be boring, why not just stay on your current shard...or join Siege? Siege has open PvP and it includes all the new content.

It's the new content that most of us are trying to get away from.

But, as I said, I don't think too many people have ever stated that the shard should never get new content...just not the new content that the current shards got (Trammel, AoS, Tokuno, Malas, that ridiculous Elf tree thing (Scriptwood? No, Heartwood...sorry), and Stygian Abyss).

I just think that the less land there is in the beginning, the more community will gel.

Also, think about it, the main reason most people go to the new areas is to farm the uber items that drop there. If the items weren't there, most people would lose interest. The original landmass and T2A were plenty of land to keep people interested at one time...and that was when the shards had a much higher population.

No offense taken. I will debate a point into oblivion, just to play devil's advocate more than anything. I'm not emotionally attached to Ilshenar.

I still would love to see Ilshenar, in action, with a Fel ruleset. I just think fighting over the Ancient Wyrm spawn will get old.

Also, it will get old knowing EXACTLY where to find people. On umm.. "certain" (not-to-be named) shards, it's easy to have a Rune Book or 2 with all of the prime hunting spots, and canvas it every 15 minutes.

The nice thing about Ilsh would be.... no recalling in or out. None. Zero. Gate camping will need to be addressed though.

This is where the advanced players will migrate to.

But ya... It's not required right away by any means.

 

[Unsatisfied]

Two questions based on the sticky (http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=190295)

1) What exactly is wrong with bods and runics, if you can just make vanq/invul + gm moddifier weapons/armor? Take out the ability to reset BODs (to prevent scripters), and you have a nice system... imo.

2) What about Champ Spawns that don't drop PS's? Is that what the "Ilshenar potential" is about? Why not just have Ilshenar (with Fel ruleset) in from the get go? It would be a nice end game to shoot for, paragons and all. Fighting a Para Balron with 700 skill cap (while watching your back for raiders) would be a great experience, imo.

1) A few things we've argued against ruinics a. They after a short period of time they become the "standard" and start harming the little crafter that doesnt have time to farm bods, simple gm crafted stuff becomes a thing of the past and you have to have hammers to compete as a crafter b. Vanqs are hard to come by in this era and we want people to stay in the dungeons looking for them or hunting t maps for the small chance of them dropping. Introducing hammers leaves almost no reason to look for them anymore.

2) Champ spawns I dont mind without powerscrolls but they should still only drop a small ammount of high end weapons I dont want them becoming too easy to get in this era, and Ilsh like has been stated before definately not at the start, and id REALLY rather it never come in but if theres a massive need for it (and i mean MASSIVE) and they dont want to start more than one server I'll keep my mouth shut

 

[Ray_]

Also, it will get old knowing EXACTLY where to find people. On umm.. "certain" (not-to-be named) shards, it's easy to have a Rune Book or 2 with all of the prime hunting spots, and canvas it every 15 minutes.

A true classic shard wouldn't have blessed runebooks. Doesn't completely negate what you're saying, but certainly helps mitigate it to a large degree.

 

[Tanivar]

I know that you used to be for this idea, but I guess in the course of the debate, you have changed your mind?

I wish you would give Classic UO a chance before writing it off due to the lack of Trammel...but that's just me.

I'm not writing it off due to a lack of Tram Morgana, I'm writing it off due to the PKerfest it's going to be.

*btw...I like the new avatar...but I miss the puppy! *

Here is the pic if you want to use it somewhere.

 

[Kaivan]

From the other thread:

Exp/ebolt = ~30 damage, fs = ~40 damage. We're talking 69hp after a clumsy here.

On a player with no resist, Explosion and Energy Bolt did exactly 29 damage on average. Flamestrike did 33. On GM resist, the damage was severely curtailed. 20 for Explosion and Energy Bolt and 23 for Flamestrike.

Are you kidding? Do remember that crushing blow was changed to +50% damage and capped at 60hp because people were getting hit for 80hp war hammer shots. 40hp hits on a mage from a 2h weapon weren't rare.
Proof: http://update.uo.com/design_208.html

Umm, what? If you actually read the patch note you linked you would have seen that the maximum damage from crushing blows before the patch was approximately 70-80 damage. Also, the maximum damage after the patch was now capped at approximately 60. This had nothing to do with the actual problem which was that average hits when hitting with a crushing blow was 44 damage (assuming a GM weapon). You've got to realize that the worst possible scenario wasn't what happened all the time, and statistically speaking, it was exceedingly rare (for war hammers it was approximately 1 in 260000 with 100 int)

A GM hally did around 33 damage on average with GM swords/tacs/anat. Max damage was something like 55 or 60.
War hammers were did like 27 damage on average with max around 40.
Those are non-LJ builds.

Average Halberd damage was only 31 with a GM weapon, swords, tactics and anatomy under a best case scenario calculation. The maximum was only 53 and only happened once in every 529 swings. Again, you need to stop painting the maximum damage as the number that happened all the time. Also, what dexer in their right mind would ever use a halberd in the first place except for the concussion blow (in which case the damage was practically irrelevant to the goal)?

I was thinking of a mage when I wrote that. Balanced stats didn't hurt dexers nearly as much as they hurt mages, as was it's intent. The whole point of UO:R combat changes was to nerf mages into something more resembling standard PnP mages. I'd say glass cannon, but since overall mage DPS output was severely reduced that isn't quite accurate.

I'll agree that UOR intentionally tried to nerf the mage, and that they went too far with it. However, there were many issues with mages that needed to be corrected that aren't present on a T2A server. Cases in point: Poison was "resistable" in so much that it reduced the intensity, but the spell was effectively uniresistable, the double hit exploit, and healing through poison. All were fixed with UOR (or early patches therein) and were problematic advantages for a mage that presented an exceedingly unbalanced scenario.

 

[Kaivan]

Two questions based on the sticky (http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=190295)

1) What exactly is wrong with bods and runics, if you can just make vanq/invul + gm moddifier weapons/armor? Take out the ability to reset BODs (to prevent scripters), and you have a nice system... imo.

2) What about Champ Spawns that don't drop PS's? Is that what the "Ilshenar potential" is about? Why not just have Ilshenar (with Fel ruleset) in from the get go? It would be a nice end game to shoot for, paragons and all. Fighting a Para Balron with 700 skill cap (while watching your back for raiders) would be a great experience, imo.

There's nothing wrong with either if they aren't a source for balance altering items. For example, forges and anvils weren't a problem, but runic hammers were. Power scrolls and massive amounts of gold for completing these spawns were a problem, but the concept of a champion spawn isn't.

 

[Barry Gibb]

Though I have no interest in any manifestation of a "classic shard". Here is a link to the Classic Shard #1 thread, which this one is an extension of. This will save you some hassle of looking for it later (since it will eventually get buried in the depths of UHall.

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=185487

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[Kaleb]

Having Ilshenar in would just spread the playerbase too thin. One of the good things about pre-UO:R was that everyone was crammed in together and you couldn't farm for hours on end without ever seeing another player.

I personally don't care if higher-end mobs are added in, just as long as none of the new mounts are added at the same time.

Cant base it off most of current servers W/O a trammel and a trammel T2A, Ilsh. would not be all that bad. At least on siege it worked out well and was fun.

Runics are not IMO all that bad, I play with them on a server that has "classic combat/items/skills", fel ruleset, runics, With out item bless deeds they are pretty balanced, and you still see vendors selling monster loot. If they didn't add would I not play? No.

Seriously I would be happy if it was what we had today just under the pre Aos combat,Skill,Item,AR, no private housing system we had with no trammel rulesets. Some penalties for PK, if that's all that the devs are able to do.

 

[Tanivar]

Just got done skimming the origonal Classic Shard thread and saw Petra's post at the end. Long discussion

Has a Dev chimed in recently? I'm curious what the chances are for an AoS free UO shard. Hopefully one PvMers and Crafters can enjoy enough to stay.

 

[Unsatisfied]

A true classic shard wouldn't have blessed runebooks. Doesn't completely negate what you're saying, but certainly helps mitigate it to a large degree.

So true, I'm looking for this shard to be as era accurate where possible. But I'll miss my blessed runebooks.

For the greater good tho!

 

[Unsatisfied]

Cant base it off most of current servers W/O a trammel and a trammel T2A, Ilsh. would not be all that bad. At least on siege it worked out well and was fun.

Runics are not IMO all that bad, I play with them on a server that has "classic combat/items/skills", fel ruleset, runics, With out item bless deeds they are pretty balanced, and you still see vendors selling monster loot. If they didn't add would I not play? No.

Seriously I would be happy if it was what we had today just under the pre Aos combat,Skill,Item,AR, no private housing system we had with no trammel rulesets. Some penalties for PK, if that's all that the devs are able to do.

But the server you play also allows mages to wear full invul leather suits to soften the blow of these ruinics... Try fighting as a mage against a ruinic hammer in t2a where you cant wear armour due to the massive loss of meditation. And besides, its not true that its not that bad there. Crafters are absolutely useless if they dont have ruinics which is one of my main points against ruinics. And magic weapons are worthless unless its a very high end supremely accurate or close to it/vanq hally for tank mages to run tourneys with because they usually dont allow ruinics. I love that server, but its not what I want in a classic EA shard. Its something unique there.

 

[Eros]

We can all bicker and argue over details, but I think the key components of a Classic based shard would be:

- No Trammel
- No AoS properties of any kind
- No expansion content (new lands, artifacts, new monsters, new skills, etc.)
- Classic skills and spells
- Classic item system...Ruin, Vanq, etc.
- No transfers
- No Neon crap

Pretty much everything else is details. I, for one, would jump at the chance to play on a shard that had just those few things, and I wouldn't worry that much about other details, because it would be head and shoulders above what EA is currently offering.

I must disagree on not having trammel. I am a long time vet and I like to play in trammel and felucca. In my opinion I believe a good classic shard to have would be before the launch of AOS. When if im not mistaken when they had no insurance and when you were able to turn your guild into a chaos or order guild. Where you were able to attack the opposing guild even in trammel. Plus, I also believe at the launch of AOS is when we had the most complaints about the new changes of the game.

 

[eekamouse]

I'd be ok with Blessed Runebooks and no house keys (aka lock downs and secures)...

If they didn't have them, I would also be ok with it, but I would prefer these things were in.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I must disagree on not having trammel. I am a long time vet and I like to play in trammel and felucca. In my opinion I believe a good classic shard to have would be before the launch of AOS. When if im not mistaken when they had no insurance and when you were able to turn your guild into a chaos or order guild. Where you were able to attack the opposing guild even in trammel. Plus, I also believe at the launch of AOS is when we had the most complaints about the new changes of the game.

Well, you and I disagree here.

For me, the addition of Trammel did more damage to the game than AoS did.

I don't think it is necessary to drag out all of the old arguments against Trammel. I will just say this...if the Classic Shard is going to involve Trammel or any kind of PvP switch, then it is a pointless endevour. One of the primary reasons AoS was added to the game was to retain player interest in what equated to an almost no-risk environment.

What exactly makes Trammel so appealing to people? I really, really, don't get it.

Take this example, and consider it before you answer the question I posted above:

You are in Trammel. You are fighting a Lich Lord. While fighting the Lich Lord, another Lich Lord spawns, and you are killed. Pre-AoS, your 'stuff' is sitting between 2 Lich Lords, and whatever other spawn might be around. You probably aren't getting it back. Or are you? Monster AI is so limited that you might actually be able to kite one of the LLs away, kill it, then finish off the other.

By contrast:

You are on a Classic server that doesn't have Trammel. You are on your way to fight Lich Lords. You are attacked by 2 red players. You are killed. You are probably not getting your "stuff" back. Human players are not as stupid as monster AI, so you can guarantee, your stuff is gone.

So...is it the fact that your stuff is gone that makes people cling to Trammel so desperately? Or is it that you lost the stuff to another player?

What, in the end, is the difference?? If monster AI was where it should be, you would still lose your stuff.

Again...I just don't get it. Is losing "stuff" that big of a deal? In a Classic environment, the 'stuff' wasn't worth that much anyway...you could re-equip in a matter of minutes. It's not like there were billion gold artifacts like we see now.

I just want to understand this...really. Could a Trammel fan please explain to me why it is perfectly acceptable to die to an AI monster...but not a human being?

 

[dinanm3atl]

I still contend that T2A UO was not a 'PvP Game'. I don't understand where everyone is coming up with this 'PKers will kill everyone and the shard will die'.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I still contend that T2A UO was not a 'PvP Game'. I don't understand where everyone is coming up with this 'PKers will kill everyone and the shard will die'.

I am 99% sure that people get that impression because that's what actually happened the first time.

I know that a lot of T2A fans like to pretend that it didn't happen, and that OSI/EA put Trammel in for another reason...

...but the truth is, PKing was killing UO, so they split the world.

Big mistake in my opinion, but that's what happened.

A Classic Shard is likely going to attract, primarily, those that left because non-con PvP was essentially turned off by EA.

However, a lot of posters make a good point. Everyone going into the Classic Shard will know...up front...that they are signing on for a shard that will be very PvP oriented. So the complaining and mass quitting should not happen this time...those players just won't sign on at all.

 

[eekamouse]

I still contend that T2A UO was not a 'PvP Game'. I don't understand where everyone is coming up with this 'PKers will kill everyone and the shard will die'.

Agreed. One of my favorite memories of T2A was killing Titans and Cyclopean Warriors, getting a Vanq off one... A red shows up, and I kill him with the Vanq I just looted. Good stuff.

I lost the Vanq later that night

 

[HD2300]

A rehash from thread #1 as I'm still waiting for anyone from the pro-Classic shard side to post some plausible numbers on cost and duration.

There has been general consensus that Classic will be a PvP shard, and long term players will mainly be PvPers.

Classic to appeal to former subscribers will have to be 100% Classic, not a unbalanced Trammelised version with harsher PK penalties, otherwise many former PvPers will not be interested.

Lets crunch the numbers. At the Tram-Fel split there were 260 000 subscribers. Estimates put the number of PvPers at 90-95%.

So lets just assume that Classic shard will target 26 000 PvPers. Interest is only in additional profit, that is, new subscribers to UO.

Lets assume based on the fact that freeshards offer exactly the same product but for free and that there are other alternatives such as Darkfall, DAoC, Warhammer, AoC and possibly soon Mortal Online, we get 20% initial interest. That is ~5000 new subscribers. Assuming there will be a 50% bleed rate after 6 months, this means 2500 ongoing new subscribers.

So are 2500 new ongoing subscribers worth 2 years of development, major bug fixing + balancing and ongoing bug fixing + content development? Will 2500 new subscribers, offset the high risk of subscribers on production shards leaving when there is no new content during much of this 2 year period?

The Classic shard project will just be like every big MMORPG project and take way longer than was initially estimated. So what happens when it takes way longer than expected? No new content for long long periods. The last time it happened in UO was with the KR client project. There was 9 months of no new content, such as events, and as a result tons of paying subscribers left the game. If the above happens, UO will lose more subscribers than it gains from the Classic shard.

One of the reasons, but not the only reason why production shards are slowing bleeding subscribers is that they have both Fel and Trammel, and when the best resources are placed in Fel, the sheep and wolves principles also apply. The Fel+Trammel split in Production shards reduces the rate at which subscribers bleed, but doesnt eliminate it.

That is why it is far cheaper and better to build a current patch only PvP Server for PvPers and an only PvM server for non-PvPers. PvPers can PvP against the best of the best in a populated shard without stat loss on res for reds, and non-PvPers will be happy too. You could also nullify all item properties (nerf AOS).

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Once again...you have no way of knowing anything about how much it will cost or how long it will take.

"Let's assume...let's assume"

Let's not.

So far, you are the only person throwing numbers around.

The following questions have to be answered before anyone can state with any accuracy what the cost or development time needed will be:

1. Will the shard be based on new code, existing code, or old code?

2. Will the shard be hosted on an existing server rack?

Until you know either of those things, you are just guessing and posting strawman arguments.

That's why no one is responding to your question.

 

[Tanivar]

Well, you and I disagree here.

What exactly makes Trammel so appealing to people? I really, really, don't get it.


Take this example, and consider it before you answer the question I posted above:

You are in Trammel. You are fighting a Lich Lord. While fighting the Lich Lord, another Lich Lord spawns, and you are killed. Pre-AoS, your 'stuff' is sitting between 2 Lich Lords, and whatever other spawn might be around. You probably aren't getting it back. Or are you? Monster AI is so limited that you might actually be able to kite one of the LLs away, kill it, then finish off the other.

By contrast:

You are on a Classic server that doesn't have Trammel. You are on your way to fight Lich Lords. You are attacked by 2 red players. You are killed. You are probably not getting your "stuff" back. Human players are not as stupid as monster AI, so you can guarantee, your stuff is gone.

So...is it the fact that your stuff is gone that makes people cling to Trammel so desperately? Or is it that you lost the stuff to another player?

What, in the end, is the difference?? If monster AI was where it should be, you would still lose your stuff.

Again...I just don't get it. Is losing "stuff" that big of a deal? In a Classic environment, the 'stuff' wasn't worth that much anyway...you could re-equip in a matter of minutes. It's not like there were billion gold artifacts like we see now.

I just want to understand this...really. Could a Trammel fan please explain to me why it is perfectly acceptable to die to an AI monster...but not a human being?

Simple Morgana. Monsters don't get thier childish jollies by ganking you. Pkers get their thrill by ruining the fun of others. They chase you down, kill your character, and take what you've worked for, and will do it over, & over, & over, to you and others for the thrill of griefing other players. A monster won't chase you or lie in ambush for you just for the fun of ruining your game experience. You can have fun in game around monsters because they don't act the way PKers do. You can make the effort to gain some treasure and probably get home with it around monsters. With PKers, you likely can't. You've made comments in posts in the first thread that show your able to understand this. Your not a potential Darwin Award winner.

A non-PvPer doesn't get thier jollies by being jumped by jerks and losing what they've accomplished between OOOoooOOOoooing sessions. We like to achieve something. Have something to show for our time in game besides having to find a healer again, re-equip again, try to achieve something again, and getting PKed and ripped off again.

I have foragers who can likely kick rump one on one, but it wouldn't be one on one after I dirtnapped a few single PKers, would it? It would be several on one and another OOOoooOOOooo session. We get a gang together to forage, we'd just draw more PKers. The play seesion would be PvP, not PvM or foraging. We don't get to play how we want to, but the PKers do. Either way, our fun is ruined.

A Classic Shard with mildly restrained or completely unrestarined PKing will drive out the non-PvPers and Crafters like they did 10 years ago, and then leave again because the game is no fun for them. They have no one elses fun to ruin.

 

[kelmo]

*smiles* Not always...

 

[Tanivar]

A Classic Shard is likely going to attract, primarily, those that left because non-con PvP was essentially turned off by EA.

However, a lot of posters make a good point. Everyone going into the Classic Shard will know...up front...that they are signing on for a shard that will be very PvP oriented. So the complaining and mass quitting should not happen this time...those players just won't sign on at all.

Which will make the Classic Shard pretty much populated by PvPers who hate AoS like the rest of us. Their will be few others on the shard. Most of the Pkers won't stay because there are few if any 'sheep' to kill and rob, and the few that do stay will moan & whine how the games no fun and complain how the true PvPers boot their PKing rumps up between thier ears and threaten to leave the game (again).

A Classic Shard with unlimited PKing will look just like fel on the AoS tainted production shards. A Ghost Town.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Simple Morgana. Monsters don't get thier childish jollies by ganking you. Pkers get their thrill by ruining the fun of others. They chase you down, kill your character, and take what you've worked for, and will do it over, & over, & over, to you and others for the thrill of griefing other players. A monster won't chase you or lie in ambush for you just for the fun of ruining your game experience. You can have fun in game around monsters because they don't act the way PKers do. You can make the effort to gain some treasure and probably get home with it around monsters. With PKers, you likely can't. You've made comments in posts in the first thread that show your able to understand this. Your not a potential Darwin Award winner.

A non-PvPer doesn't get thier jollies by being jumped by jerks and losing what they've accomplished between OOOoooOOOoooing sessions. We like to achieve something. Have something to show for our time in game besides having to find a healer again, re-equip again, try to achieve something again, and getting PKed and ripped off again.

I have foragers who can likely kick rump one on one, but it wouldn't be one on one after I dirtnapped a few single PKers, would it? It would be several on one and another OOOoooOOOooo session. We get a gang together to forage, we'd just draw more PKers. The play seesion would be PvP, not PvM or foraging. We don't get to play how we want to, but the PKers do. Either way, our fun is ruined.

Help me understand here...because my first reaction is...you never want to die...ever. Is that right?

Tell me...from your end what is the actual difference if you are killed and looted by an NPC vs. a PC?

Forget about the entire Us vs. Them thing for a moment, and only consider the actual end results.

Is it the fact that the PK might say something to you that demeans you? Or does it go deeper than that?

I have postulated in the past that Trammel fans took things too personally...that they allowed themselves to become angry, not because they were killed, but because their deaths somehow made them feel inferior to those that killed them.

Is that the issue?

I am not saying that PKing is okay, or that people should just 'deal with it'...so no need here for the whole "Darwin Award" BS.

I am just trying to get a different perspective here...because for me, I have never really been able to understand the aversion some people have to PvP. The only thing I get from most people equates to 'PKs are jerks'. Which in most cases, I agree with. But when I probe past that, I get 'well, with monsters, I might get my stuff back...but with PKs I can't'...which means that the non-PvPer is simply looking for an easier experience in the game, ie...less challenge.

And I quote...

You can make the effort to gain some treasure and probably get home with it around monsters. With PKers, you likely can't.

So...is that it? Non-PvPers are just looking for an easier path?

 

[Tanivar]

I still contend that T2A UO was not a 'PvP Game'. I don't understand where everyone is coming up with this 'PKers will kill everyone and the shard will die'.

<laugh> Read the first Classic Shard thread posts and the linked to posts a couple of hundred posts in (quoted in a post of mine as well). The PKers speak for themselves and are quite plain about it. They look forward to returning and killing everyone. Read their own words.

At least spend some time following the topic before you post something.

 

[Tanivar]

I must disagree on not having trammel. I am a long time vet and I like to play in trammel and felucca. In my opinion I believe a good classic shard to have would be before the launch of AOS. When if im not mistaken when they had no insurance and when you were able to turn your guild into a chaos or order guild. Where you were able to attack the opposing guild even in trammel. Plus, I also believe at the launch of AOS is when we had the most complaints about the new changes of the game.

I think an AoS-free Classic Shard with a Tram would be the way to go as well. It would give the non-PvP AoS-haters a place to go where there would be an unscrewed up economy. I'd be happy if they just copied a production shard and took the uber gear numbers out of the combat formulas so the gear wouldn't affect combat. The monsters with HP planned for uber stuff would certainly be interesting to hunt before they probably eventually adjusted them. <g>

Doing the non-AoS Classic Shard with a Tram would draw a lot more players to it than a Tram free one will. All that will draw are some die hard PvPers and then some PKers briefly who won't find it fun because their 'fun' will be on the Tram facet, or will have stayed on their origonal shards.

 

[eekamouse]

Most of the Pkers won't stay because there are few if any 'sheep' to kill and rob

False, false, and more false.

PKers don't just enjoy ganking. They enjoy a good fight. They aren't there to just gank. They are there to compete and win.

 

[Tanivar]

Help me understand here...because my first reaction is...you never want to die...ever. Is that right?

I'm sitting here wondering where you got that impression from my post. You definitely did some creative interpetation there.

Tell me...from your end what is the actual difference if you are killed and looted by an NPC vs. a PC?

Go back and read my post. It'll answer that question.

Forget about the entire Us vs. Them thing for a moment, and only consider the actual end results.

Is it the fact that the PK might say something to you that demeans you? Or does it go deeper than that?

I have postulated in the past that Trammel fans took things too personally...that they allowed themselves to become angry, not because they were killed, but because their deaths somehow made them feel inferior to those that killed them.

Is that the issue?

No. <chuckle> I repeat the suggestion to read my post. <looks totally amused by the babble>

I am just trying to get a different perspective here...because for me, I have never really been able to understand the aversion some people have to PvP. The only thing I get from most people equates to 'PKs are jerks'. Which in most cases, I agree with. But when I probe past that, I get 'well, with monsters, I might get my stuff back...but with PKs I can't'...which means that the non-PvPer is simply looking for an easier experience in the game, ie...less challenge.

And I quote...

You can make the effort to gain some treasure and probably get home with it around monsters. With PKers, you likely can't.

So...is that it? Non-PvPers are just looking for an easier path?

You most definitely didn't read my post, did you...? ROTFLMAO

Nonsense babble isn't normally your style. Let's pick this discussion back up in the morning Morgana after you've had some sleep. Compared to your usual posts, this is unreal. Totally out of character for you.

 

[eekamouse]

This is how I would describe my ideal for the Classic Shard... if it were like a marketing blurb.

The idea for EA/Mythic's new Classic Shard is to create an environment that caters to every play style and allows even the casual gamer to enjoy Ultima Online the way it "used to be". For the Classic Shard we went back to the basics of what made Ultima Online such an exciting game and added in some of the best ideas which came in later publishes as well as some of the standout items from earlier times in Ultima Online This blockbuster combination resulted in an unprecedented game play style providing any kind of player a home here. As a result you'll find skill gain is much faster here than what you're accustomed to on the original shards. PvP is balanced and standard gaming systems like Factions have been added. You will also find unique systems which add to our rich game play such as our Texas Hold'em Poker which allows you to play poker with your friends in Ultima Online, a complete dueling system with a ladder system that will allow you to compete against the best in the world for bragging rights (with a rule set customized by you, to your specifications) and original daily events by our professional staff.

 

[HD2300]

This is how I would describe my ideal for the Classic Shard... if it were like a marketing blurb.

The idea for EA/Mythic's new Classic Shard is to create an environment that caters to every play style and allows even the casual gamer to enjoy Ultima Online the way it "used to be". For the Classic Shard we went back to the basics of what made Ultima Online such an exciting game and added in some of the best ideas which came in later publishes as well as some of the standout items from earlier times in Ultima Online This blockbuster combination resulted in an unprecedented game play style providing any kind of player a home here. As a result you'll find skill gain is much faster here than what you're accustomed to on the original shards. PvP is balanced and standard gaming systems like Factions have been added. You will also find unique systems which add to our rich game play such as our Texas Hold'em Poker which allows you to play poker with your friends in Ultima Online, a complete dueling system with a ladder system that will allow you to compete against the best in the world for bragging rights (with a rule set customized by you, to your specifications) and original daily events by our professional staff.

LOL I've read that before somewhere. I would like to see a showdown. :gun:

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Help me understand here...because my first reaction is...you never want to die...ever. Is that right?

I'm sitting here wondering where you got that impression from

I think an AoS-free Classic Shard with a Tram would be the way to go as well.

Self answering question.

 

[Tanivar]

Most of the Pkers won't stay because there are few if any 'sheep' to kill and rob

False, false, and more false.

True, true, and more true. <laugh>

Must have been PKers you haven't met. I certainly did. What do you think has me so anti-PK? If I had been in a position of authority at EA 10 years ago I'd have issued orders to ban Reds who clearly were getting their jollies ruining the enjoyment of other customers and to immediately install code to seriously limit such behavior, lightening up on it as possible over time. Tram would have never been nessesary. Keep the majority of the customers happy would have been the rule.

PKers don't just enjoy ganking. They enjoy a good fight. They aren't there to just gank. They are there to compete and win.

Yeah, compete and win. Only it's against those who are easy targets or where the PKer(s) have a clear advantage. A good fight is where they have a sure win. Crafting template character in clothing vs PKer template in armor with a weapon. From what PKers have shown me, that is their idea of competition and a 'good' fight.

PvPers tend to be decent people with class who don't kill those not equipped for battle. Pkers are a whole different thing.

 

[Tanivar]

Self answering question.

<shakes his head in amusement>

Goodnight M'Lady