Classic Shard #2

[eekamouse]

I agree with you eekamouse about that last statement. I think purists can't see the forest for the trees sometimes.

But I do understand the concern over champ spawns.

Champ spawns would probably be fine on a classic shard as long as the following conditions were met:

- No special drops of any kind that are unique to the spawns. No rares, no artifacts, etc.
- No guaranteed drops of anything specific. Make the drops like treasure chests used to be...random based on level.
- The creatures that spawned at them, besides the champion, should carry minimal loot...or none.

The objective is to not replicate things that have broken the current UO economy.

As for BODs...all I will say is no thanks. They did nothing besides encourage scripters and dupers. The only reason anyone even cared about BODs was the chance to get runics. If the runics are gone, and all of the skill enhancing items are gone, what exactly would you get as a BOD reward? Just gold? I can't see the point.

And tailoring reward cloth = NO WAY! NO NEON CRAP EVER!

That's my point exactly regarding Champs. Just have the thing drop like 5 treasure chests or whatever.

I agree with no Neon.

If you don't allow BOD resetting (aka turning in a weapon BOD, to get your next bod), you won't be able to script BODS, so I don't see that being a problem.

 

[fantasy10k]

Cograin, not to be rude. But nobody really cares about the stuff you said, insurance was one of the thing that also ruined Uo , thought everyone was wearing full blessed gear theese days, atleast thats what my friend said.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

People just gotta understand you don't come in this 20+ page thread and dictate what you think is the absolute truth.

We're here to discuss, you cannot "win" the biggest thread on stratics.

Saying NO THIS, NO THIS... and using strong words of evil personalities will only make you look childish at best.

Classic is a playstyle, not rules. We settled this also about 10 pages ago, and of course even if most have a short attention span and do not remember, or just chime in without having actually read the thread...

Why would it be wrong for meditation to be allowed for PVM... do you really mind about some players getting a little more loot because they dedicate their character to PVM ?

This is not going to be a purely pvp shard, things gotta feel classic, but the rules should be flexible.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Remember ImAnEwBiE ?

Whatever happened to Ima and Irma and all the rest of that motley crew. I went to the web page the other day and just got a stratics broken link. Don't tell me that the comic that pretty much enshrined the classic UO feel is dead and gone without an archive somewhere.

The more I think about it... meditation is a bad idea for PVP, maybe it could be used in a PvM setting under strict regulation, like that it could render a character PVP useless because of the skill.

A message could come up : "You are currently in fear of being murdered and cannot concentrate"

I don't think any skill that is beneficial in PvM should be excluded from PvP. Either have it or don't have it, but don't force a person to decide whether or not they will be solely PvP or solely PvM on a certain character.

 

[Coragin]

Cograin, not to be rude. But nobody really cares about the stuff you said, insurance was one of the thing that also ruined Uo , thought everyone was wearing full blessed gear theese days, atleast thats what my friend said.

Hey just making sure were all on the same page. I figured people would get upset about the housing thing, double-triple price depending on house, no secures or lockdowns, keys, deeds, ect. The MAX 700 point skills, no banks for murderers/reds. Just want to make sure were all on the same page is all.

 

[Coragin]

Classic should be classic, not "Classic with some newer stuff too". Might as well call it a modified shard and not classic, if meditation is in, its not classic at all. If you want classic, go true classic, true classic is all I would support.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Hey just making sure were all on the same page. I figured people would get upset about the housing thing, double-triple price depending on house, no secures or lockdowns, keys, deeds, ect. The MAX 700 point skills, no banks for murderers/reds. Just want to make sure were all on the same page is all.

Why would we get upset over all that? My word man, did you not even read the other thread? For a great part of T2A there were no secures or lockdowns. Small houses cost almost 50k etc. We're used to that. It doesn't scare us. It makes us feel warm and fuzzy inside actually.

Now the no banks for reds on the other hand is wrong. They should always have a bank on Buc's Den, it is after all the crime capital of Britannia.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

no secures or lockdowns

So, things in your house are going to just decay?

If you will remember, lock downs were put in when decay was added (server item wipes). Prior to this, people would just hide bags behind trees, etc. full of stuff. It would just stay there. But the servers were getting so full of items that they had to turn on decay...this was pretty early on.

Lock downs were definitely around in T2A.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Well you know... you got 5 character slots, why not dedicate one to PVM ?

Thing is with meditation they started trying to balance very small problems in pvp balance, and they created big problems when people got used to it.

Ok maybe you're right, but it should not work as good, that would make the mages stop wearing full plate and make more sense overall. But a mage cannot concentrate as well when they know they're being attacked by a murderer thats highly dangerous than if they were fighting their hundreth liche.

Ya know...

And yes you're right... IMANEWBIE just vanished from the map.. just like the AMT comics... get it before they take it down on the wayback machine.

Because all of the AMT comics and other "sensitive" information about UO's shady past have been consistently removed both from the web archives and websites who had copied them.

 

[Coragin]

So, things in your house are going to just decay?

If you will remember, lock downs were put in when decay was added (server item wipes). Prior to this, people would just hide bags behind trees, etc. full of stuff. It would just stay there. But the servers were getting so full of items that they had to turn on decay...this was pretty early on.

Lock downs were definitely around in T2A.

Ugh, the point is, no house should be 100% secure, if that rule needs to be bent to allow you to secure a chest to the ground in your house to prevent decay fine, but it should be accessable by everyone. Thus keeping locks on your chests worth something.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Ugh, the point is, no house should be 100% secure, if that rule needs to be bent to allow you to secure a chest to the ground in your house to prevent decay fine, but it should be accessable by everyone. Thus keeping locks on your chests worth something.

Hmmm...I wouldn't refuse to play on a shard that had it one way or the other.

Truth is, the only people I see asking for no security on houses are people that are looking to loot houses.

That's like people asking for no penalties on PKs...they generally want to play PKs.

Everyone seems to want whatever makes it easiest for their particular playstyle. I understand that. But is this truly what is in the best interest of the shard?

 

[Coragin]

Hmmm...I wouldn't refuse to play on a shard that had it one way or the other.

Truth is, the only people I see asking for no security on houses are people that are looking to loot houses.

That's like people asking for no penalties on PKs...they generally want to play PKs.

Everyone seems to want whatever makes it easiest for their particular playstyle. I understand that. But is this truly what is in the best interest of the shard?

I defend houses from being looted and that was fun. But the whole point is if you are gonna go classic go true classic. You HAD to be careful at ALL times, be it in dungeons or entering or leaving your house. Remember moving around your front door to make sure no one was hiding?

Why waste the time, server and dollars on classic if your not gonna go true classic? You made a good point on people wanting stuff to go with their playstyle, hence people saying add meditation...it dont belong in classic neither does focus, stealth, necro, chiv, ect.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Why waste the time, server and dollars on classic if your not gonna go true classic? You made a good point on people wanting stuff to go with their playstyle, hence people saying add meditation...it dont belong in classic neither does focus, stealth, necro, chiv, ect.

Others have brought up these same points...and almost every single one of them has admitted that there was at least 1 feature or bug fix that came after whichever publish or date that they considered to be "classic" that they liked or wanted to see in the game.

"Classic" means different things to different people. For me, Classic UO means anything before UO:R. To someone else, it might mean anything prior to AoS,
and others will think that means anything before Publish 1.

The idea of discussing this topic is to come to a general consensus about what everyone agrees should or should not belong on a Classic Shard. If you see the sticky, those are things that most everyone pretty much agreed upon.

A lot of people came into the last thread and shrilly stated "IT HAS TO BE EXACTLY LIKE X DATE". The problem is, the server code for any of those dates reportedly no longer exists...so the devs are going to have to re-create things...and unfortunately, without writing the server code from the ground up...there is no way to make it "exactly" like any particular timeframe. They can get close, but that's about all.

Unless of course we have been misled, and they have the old server backups (like they should). In that case, this discussion becomes extremely different.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Coragin,

We have debated and debated and came pretty much to a consensus on what a classic shard should be. Read the sticky. If we're not classic enough for you, oh well. Classic means different things to different people and we all have to make compromises if we really want a shard that doesn't have all that stuff we hate on it.

Honestly though, from the tone of your posts, I get the distinct feeling that you wouldn't be playing on a classic server anyways.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Read the sticky. If we're not classic enough for you, oh well.

Hang on sec here.

If he, or anyone else, can make a good case for something, why not listen?

Nothing is set in stone at this point, right?

I am not necessarily saying I agree with everything he says, but I think any intelligent argument should at least be heard.

 

[slaveone]

This whole classic shard thing has gone on a little long don'tcha think????

There is never going to be an agreement on what truely is classic. There is never going to be enough dev time to create a classic shard based on some flimsy at best agreement on what is classic. No one but a handful of loud mouth stratics players would ever even consider playing a classic shard. All estimates of interest for a classic shard i've ever seen have been grossly over estimated at best and are usually chimed in by the same 5-10 people with 5-10 stratics accounts each.

Just get over yourselves and over this silly idea. If you want to play something similar to an old classic shard go play siege otherwise quit crying cause it's all falling on deaf ears.

 

[Babble]

Anything pre AOS is fine with me.
BODs were introduced so crafters would not lose money while training.
So without BODS giving runics or too silly colours it should be feasable, but no necessity - Crafters could sell their goods too to NPCs to make money.

Championspawns on the other hand could be fun.
Make them more dynamic - Maybe make a few more of them and the don't drop too much super loot but maybe one of a limited amount of rares that might get changed every few months or so.

I would set some championspawns into some towns and those would only become usable when the spawn is defeated. UO is still way too static, they tried with the Yew swamp once , got scared and never tried again. Is my main reason why I doubt EA can pull it off.

 

[Guido_LS]

Coragin,

We have debated and debated and came pretty much to a consensus on what a classic shard should be. Read the sticky. If we're not classic enough for you, oh well. Classic means different things to different people and we all have to make compromises if we really want a shard that doesn't have all that stuff we hate on it.

Honestly though, from the tone of your posts, I get the distinct feeling that you wouldn't be playing on a classic server anyways.

There was no consensus when that post was stickied, unless the will of 4-5 people count as consensus, and there is none at this point. The only debate has been my way or the highway, and it has been allowed to stand, so let's not pretend it has been otherwise. I mean, there's only been what, another 12 or so pages - in effect, more than doubling the size of the conversation, since that "consensus" was reached?

 

[Coragin]

Guido,

Renyard Foxenwyle is just defending his consensus. Nothing more.

 

[fantasy10k]

well like I said before, I rather have a p15 shard , the perfect UO then a t2a shard. I agree that some stuff need to change that was in t2a, like stealing houses. Roleplayers wont be able to play if they can do this. Meditation should be ingame.
Runebooks should be blessed.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

Wow step out for a little while and it's armageddon around here, in any event the forum sticky is more of a guideline for people to read before they get into a classic shard thread so they don't have to read the entire thing from start to finish.

The way I've seen it for a while now there is no way to make forward progress without either voting from a list of publishes or just trust in the devs to build what they think is the best classic shard.

The problem is simple, the devil is in the details, and the details can be argued from now until the end of our solar system. It comes down to the fact that many people will never be willing to compromise on certain issues because those issues are so important to them that if they are either there or not there it becomes game breaking.

A player consensus will never be reached on every little issue, there are just to many opinions to sort through and the more we try to micromanage what is and isn't classic the more credence it gives to the "lolz even day cant agree on wut clazzic iz" argument.

And I feel like this has been said enough times but for some reason it just will not soak in. NOBODY HAS NUMBERS! stop asking for numbers they don't exist at least not for us they don't, asking someone to present numbers is an infantile attempt to make yourself look right when we all know good and well nobody has them.

I do think a line needs to be drawn for the first classic shard as to what constitutes classic, and I don't feel trammel can be included in this since it brought about major game play differences from the original game, to me trammel from a game mechanics point of view marked the end of classic and the beginning of a new era.

If the first classic shard is successful though I don't see why a second with trammel couldn't be made. So to reiterate the only way to make any solid progress forward is to vote a publish, I'm not opposed to the bug fixes/stat and skill locks, and I don't think most people would be either.

Beyond those simple additions however, anything else begins to change the game and creates a snowball effect of "if this, why not that too!" so we can either spend a lot of time bickering over details that we will never agree on or we can try to at least get a publish consensus where everyone has to set aside their personal likes and dislikes.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

There was no consensus when that post was stickied, unless the will of 4-5 people count as consensus, and there is none at this point. The only debate has been my way or the highway, and it has been allowed to stand, so let's not pretend it has been otherwise. I mean, there's only been what, another 12 or so pages - in effect, more than doubling the size of the conversation, since that "consensus" was reached?

I think a good deal of the consensus came from the poll itself. Most of what is described in the sticky is just T2A...pure and simple. A few things were thrown in, like some crafting changes...but that's about it.

Dakkon is correct, the sticky is more of a guideline than anything else. I don't recall anyone ever saying it was a done deal. Constructive and intelligent input is always welcome. Shrill insulting trolling is not (not aimed at you Guido).

 

[Evlar]

No matter the era people will still want rare or status symbol item. T2A had plenty of things. Fruit baskets, candles, rock and blood tiles come to mind. All worthless in the game. No history just items. Black sandals anyone?

Champ spawns don't seem to fit in the classic shard though. Regardless of whether they have a reward or not. That's not to say they couldn't be made into something that could. Expand them to encompass chaos/order. Make a spawn for each and if the opposite team builds up and kill the champ of the other they get some type of apropriate reward. A title or their armor doesn't decay for a day or something. It could work but it seems a little bit funky in a classic frame.

I think your post got a little lost amongst the following discussion there phantus, but you raised some very good points.

I think everyone in favour of a classic shard, shares the same distaste of item-centric gaming. Yes, there were still items in UO, of varying importance, but skills were more important.

Pride is a big part of any online game. Pride in collecting a "rare" items, pride in titles, pride in success against creatures or players. It comes in many different forms, for many different reasons.

People will always want to collect something for their efforts in the game though. I've always felt rather than increasingly powerful items, from increasingly powerful creatures (following the direction UO has headed), that more importance could have been placed on titles. This has already been done to some extent, but I would have loved to see it be more important than the items. People always seem to like a trophy of some description though. I remember players who would display the heads of opposing players during the bounty system, in their houses. They took more pride in others seeing who they had beaten, rather than turn the heads in for the bounty.

As for the champion spawns, I'm not sure they have a role in a classic server, other than the order/chaos orientated suggestion you made. That could work very well in the context of the lore and ideology of the game. No artifact items or scrolls as drops, but titles and fame, certainly. As part of an ongoing battle between opposing forces, most definitely. That's the heart and soul of having order/chaos. The ongoing struggle between "good" and "evil".

 

[Tanivar]

What the people involved with this discussion need to accept is that we will not ever all agree on the exact specific things a Classic Shard should have.

All of us have specific things we feel strongly about, with me it's serious restraints on PKing, with others, it's other things. We must accept that all we can come up with are a pool of preferences that the Devs will take, consider, and use or not use when they set up a 'Classic' Shard. What we create will be more or less guidelines, nothing beyond that, and getting vocal that the 'Classic' Shard MUST be exactly *THIS!* or you won't play, isn't going to change that fact.

Accept it people.

The Devs will hopefully follow the ideas most people favor. If not, we work on getting changes made after they open the 'Classic' Shard.

Right now getting a 'Classic' Shard up and being checked out by players is the first priority.

 

[HD2300]

No one but a handful of loud mouth stratics players would ever even consider playing a classic shard. All estimates of interest for a classic shard i've ever seen have been grossly over estimated at best and are usually chimed in by the same 5-10 people with 5-10 stratics accounts each.

Just get over yourselves and over this silly idea...

this.

Where's The Beef?

I have to LMAO when a week ago Stratics sends out this mass bulk email to its MMO members, and you get 6 people saying I got the email and I want a Classic shard.

The fact that no one on the pro-Classic side can post something plausible to show that a Classic shard will be a success for UO, proves that it wont be.

 

[Guido_LS]

I think a good deal of the consensus came from the poll itself. Most of what is described in the sticky is just T2A...pure and simple. A few things were thrown in, like some crafting changes...but that's about it.

Dakkon is correct, the sticky is more of a guideline than anything else. I don't recall anyone ever saying it was a done deal. Constructive and intelligent input is always welcome. Shrill insulting trolling is not (not aimed at you Guido).

Where I get totally lost and confused with this 'conversation' is why anyone that posts thoughts on pre-AoS, but without complete and total non-con, is shouted down, and yes, called stupid, noob, idiot, troll... that anyone that suggest something that isn't 100% exactly T2A is called stupid, noob, idiot, troll... that anyone that doesn't completely agree with the steadfast MINORITY gets called stupid, noob, idiot, troll... are we starting to see a pattern here yet, ladies and gents?...

Yet some (and I daresay most) of the people making these oh so unholy sacrilegious comments and suggestions are actually people that *ARE* interested in a classic server... just without the grief that, contrary to what certain people like to pretend, DID exist for more than just a few people...

It just confuses the heck out of me that allies, unwilling or otherwise, in what is essentially common ground and common cause, are treated like pariahs. Even you, Morgana, respond to anyone that wants something other than 100% non-con to just go play on one of the 24 other servers - have you ever, for a single second, considered that maybe, just MAYBE, the current servers aren't acceptable to a LARGE constituency of people that just so happen to have ZERO interest in PvP, let alone want to be PK'ed in the only opportunity that might exist to get close to an era we prefered as well? Or is simply that because most of us that didn't want to PvP had some type of respite with Trammel, only to get totally ganked by EA with AoS, that the old PvP crowd hates anyone but themselves?

To those that say, well, get over it, learn to PvP, learn to fight, whatever, there is nothing in the job description of tailor that says swords... nothing in the blacksmith's job description that says fencing... nothing in the miner's job skill set that says macing... but to enjoy THEIR game style, they have to put up with somebody else's? Yep, seems completely, totally and absolutely fair to me.

What people here are just failing to see is that, there is another side to this coin of people desiring a more classic time frame, and we are very willing to give, and give, and give - it's just that the other side isn't willing to give anything but my way or the highway. And that's how you lose support.

Do I think a classic shard is a bad idea? No, but I'm starting to feel really stupid for ever openly supporting the concept.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

this.

Where's The Beef?

I have to LMAO when a week ago Stratics sends out this mass bulk email to its MMO members, and you get 6 people saying I got the email and I want a Classic shard.

The fact that no one on the pro-Classic side can post something plausible to show that a Classic shard will be a success for UO, proves that it wont be.

As I told the person that you quoted (a deleted post...that should have been your first clue)...

...go troll another thread.

 

[HD2300]

As I told the person that you quoted (a deleted post...that should have been your first clue)...

...go troll another thread.

How can I be trolling when the exact opposite, not getting a response proves my point?

You cant win an argument based on the facts and reason, so you report every post that isnt pro-Classic as a troll post. rolleyes:

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Where I get totally lost and confused with this 'conversation' is why anyone that posts thoughts on pre-AoS, but without complete and total non-con, is shouted down, and yes, called stupid, noob, idiot, troll... that anyone that suggest something that isn't 100% exactly T2A is called stupid, noob, idiot, troll... that anyone that doesn't completely agree with the steadfast MINORITY gets called stupid, noob, idiot, troll... are we starting to see a pattern here yet, ladies and gents?...

Actually, the only people I am calling trolls are the ones that come into the thread and either get insulting, or keep posting the same thing, over and over, even though people have answered their question.

Yet some (and I daresay most) of the people making these oh so unholy sacrilegious comments and suggestions are actually people that *ARE* interested in a classic server... just without the grief that, contrary to what certain people like to pretend, DID exist for more than just a few people...

You will never have a multiplayer game that is open to everyone that is going to be totally without grief.

Also, I don't consider PvPers and PKs to necessarily be griefers. I know that some people do, and I fully recognize that some are, but not all.

It just confuses the heck out of me that allies, unwilling or otherwise, in what is essentially common ground and common cause, are treated like pariahs. Even you, Morgana, respond to anyone that wants something other than 100% non-con to just go play on one of the 24 other servers - have you ever, for a single second, considered that maybe, just MAYBE, the current servers aren't acceptable to a LARGE constituency of people that just so happen to have ZERO interest in PvP, let alone want to be PK'ed in the only opportunity that might exist to get close to an era we prefered as well? Or is simply that because most of us that didn't want to PvP had some type of respite with Trammel, only to get totally ganked by EA with AoS, that the old PvP crowd hates anyone but themselves?

Fair enough. I will not tell you to go and play on the current servers. If the majority of the people want a Trammel shard, then so be it...I will support that it be created. I would just never, ever, play on it.

To those that say, well, get over it, learn to PvP, learn to fight, whatever, there is nothing in the job description of tailor that says swords... nothing in the blacksmith's job description that says fencing... nothing in the miner's job skill set that says macing... but to enjoy THEIR game style, they have to put up with somebody else's? Yep, seems completely, totally and absolutely fair to me.

What people here are just failing to see is that, there is another side to this coin of people desiring a more classic time frame, and we are very willing to give, and give, and give - it's just that the other side isn't willing to give anything but my way or the highway. And that's how you lose support.

Do I think a classic shard is a bad idea? No, but I'm starting to feel really stupid for ever openly supporting the concept.

I have more or less stated openly from day 1 that I think a Classic Shard needs more controls on PKs (and I have been called nearly every name in the book for doing so). I have also said that I believe that a non-PvP/Trammel shard is not the best idea for a Classic Shard...and I have been called not as many names from the book, but enough.

The difference is, I am advocating for what I believe would be best for the shard...not for me personally.

Are some people going to disagree with me? Absolutely!! As you can see by the responses I get...no one side supports my ideas because they do not cater specifically towards either side. I believe in risk vs. reward, open PvP...which Trammies don't like, and I believe that there should be greater risks involved with being a PK...which the PK/PvPers don't like.

It's the selfish inflexible attitudes on both sides of the argument that make me realize that this topic is probably a waste of time.

The developers added Trammel because PKs wouldn't stop killing non-PvPers...AND because the non-PvPers would accept NOTHING short of zero risk.

As long as everyone on both sides is going to remain closed minded to what the other side is saying...then no compromise can be had.

Specifically to you Guido I ask:

What exactly would you do about PKs if it were totally up to you?

I believe I have answered this question myself many times.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

How can I be trolling when the exact opposite, not getting a response proves my point?

You cant win an argument based on the facts and reason, so you report every post that isnt pro-Classic as a troll post. rolleyes:

I have only ever reported one post on Stratics...and it wasn't yours.

I am just tired of the same question being asked by you every 5 or 6 posts.

I answered your question as best I could, and so did others.

One last time, and then you go on ignore if you refuse to take this as an answer...

THERE ARE NO NUMBERS AND THERE IS NO WAY FOR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE TO BACKUP ANYTHING WE POST HERE WITH NUMBERS SO STOP ASKING FOR NUMBERS!!

 

[HD2300]

THERE ARE NO NUMBERS AND THERE IS NO WAY FOR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE TO BACKUP ANYTHING WE POST HERE WITH NUMBERS SO STOP ASKING FOR NUMBERS!!

Sure there are. Is it just that the pro-Classic side cant provide anything plausible to show that a Classic shard will be beneficial to UO.

Businesses and people make decisions and crunch the numbers all the time. Which is the best option, should I drive to work which will save time, or should I use public transport which will save money. Should I pay EA to play a Classic shard, or should I just play a free Classic shard. Should the Classic shard be the next expansion or should hobbits or pirates be the next expansion. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate, just ball park accurate enough to make the right decision.

 

[Guido_LS]

Specifically to you Guido I ask:

What exactly would you do about PKs if it were totally up to you?

I believe I have answered this question myself many times.

Expand the guard zones - make areas where gatherers can actually be safe - to me, it's utterly stupid and hypocritical to want to go back to a time when the smith and tailor were an admired class of people, only to also make them subject to wanton and pointless killing at the same time.

That alone would solve a multitude of issues. I'm not going to comment on housing issues - I wasn't able to actually own a house until Trammel came out, simply because there was no where to place one. Which is hilarious, considering that, at the time, I had 3 pure black mares, one of which was long maned (which is still stabled, btw), a WW and a dragon - all except that long maned were gifted to me, or traded for services rendered... so it wasn't like I couldn't afford one - they just weren't available.

Before the split, I was PK'ed once - just once. And that PK found out what player justice was truly about, in a very (looking back on it) inappropriate way - the guild I was in hunted the guy down, and killed/rez-killed him at least 6-7 times. They'd have done it more, but he managed to get a guard zone, and, as far as I know, he never logged back in again on that character.

It's not that I can't PvP - right now, I choose not to, because what exists on current prodo shards is NOT PvP. I don't need to explain that - there are hundreds of threads on the topic. And, to put a not so fine point on it, the last 10 or so years haven't exactly been kind to my hands/wrists, so the desire to do it again, even on a level playing field, isn't exactly high. And considering I have you by at least 20, and probably closer to 30 years, it's not quite as easy to bounce back as it used to be... So yes, some of my reasoning is selfish - personally selfish. But no less selfish than anything else that's been posted, and they also happen to echo the thoughts of more than just a few other people.

The difference is, I am advocating for what I believe would be best for the shard

Then follow your head and your heart, and not the screams of an overly loud, overly self-important minority.

You see, I am NOT a believer in the Bull Durham fantasy going on in some people's minds (the if you build it, they will come crowd). And that's probably a good thing. I know what happened to Durham Athletic Park, and it's field of dreams, after the movie... want a UO equivalent? Modern day Felucca...

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I know what happened to Durham Athletic Park, and it's field of dreams, after the movie... want a UO equivalent? Modern day Felucca...

Ha! Funny you should mention that...I live like 2 exits from there! Actually, the new park they built is very nice. I don't care much for baseball, but the company I work for does outings there, and it's a really nice area down there.

But I digress...off topic.

So you say expand guardzones?

Expand them to where exactly? Not trying to be difficult here, but I am curious. Instead of guards, would you settle for powerful NPC paladins and rangers that roamed the forests and mining areas and such?

One thing I will say, when we started this discussion, I was totally committed to the idea that a T2A Classic Shard would be a failure, and that extra anti-PK measures were needed. I partly changed my mind. Not because I listened to a minority...but because I realized that most Trammel fans are not going to log into a Classic Shard, not for long anyway. It's too difficult. They will not be able to farm items without risk...so they won't play. But, as I said, if it were up to me, I would add things that encouraged PvP, but did so in a way that it took the focus away from killing newbies and crafters. (Exile, Bounty Hunter system, Stat Loss on death, etc.)

The problem is, when I suggest those things, no one wanted to hear them. The PKs were like "no! no! no! Too hard! no! no! no! You ________in' _______!! Go back to Trammel!" And the non-PvPers didn't back me up, because it didn't take PKing out of the equation...in fact, in certain places, it encourages it!!

There is no way to please both sides on this I fear. I think maybe the devs were right. Isolated environments might be the only answer. I was once hopeful that both sides could compromise, but it has become increasing apparent that is not going to happen.

 

[Guido_LS]

Ha! Funny you should mention that...I live like 2 exits from there! Actually, the new park they built is very nice. I don't care much for baseball, but the company I work for does outings there, and it's a really nice area down there.

/ot

They are doing some nice things to renovate Durham, that's for sure. I just went on extended leave from teaching at NC State in Cary (over the hill and through the woods from Red Hat) to come back to west side of the state to care for my grandfather (Rutherford county - beautiful country, but deader than yesterdays roadkill...) who's on the backside of 90, has all his wits, but who's body is steadily giving up...

But I digress...off topic.

Was a nice digression - puts a human face to what's normally nothing more than pixels.

So you say expand guardzones?

Expand them to where exactly? Not trying to be difficult here, but I am curious. Instead of guards, would you settle for powerful NPC paladins and rangers that roamed the forests and mining areas and such?

Way back when, when we actually started in a city, the places to be for a smith were Britain or Minoc - and yes, there is a fairly decent guard zone just outside of Minoc specifically for mining. But by the same token, it was one of my least favorite places, because everyone that wanted to mine in a relatively safe environment was herded into that one cave. I'd personally like to see that entire area of mountain as a safe zone. It's not like it's a particularly huge landmass - it would barely double the area that already exists.

There's not a whole lot more I can think of in that direction - everything else was more or less ok, or wasn't a good craft oriented city to begin with.

I could live with the npc roamers, as long as they could be done in a way that wasn't exploitable.

One thing I will say, when we started this discussion, I was totally committed to the idea that a T2A Classic Shard would be a failure, and that extra anti-PK measures were needed. I partly changed my mind. Not because I listened to a minority...but because I realized that most Trammel fans are not going to log into a Classic Shard, not for long anyway. It's too difficult. They will not be able to farm items without risk...so they won't play. But, as I said, if it were up to me, I would add things that encouraged PvP, but did so in a way that it took the focus away from killing newbies and crafters. (Exile, Bounty Hunter system, Stat Loss on death, etc.)

Just on the bolded part - I can say, with some certainty, that I know just as many real people that don't even play anymore because of the PK issue that would be willing to come back and give a classic shard a try with some relative safety, as do the people that say they know all these people that would come back for PvP. Would they stay? I can't say for any certainty anymore than anyone can claim for their friends. It would depend on a lot of issues that aren't even PvP/PK related. I know for certain it wouldn't be a younger crowd - a lot of my students would laugh when they found out I played UO to this day. I had one go so far as to ask me if it would still load on a Vic20... But a lot of my colleagues (especially the ones over at Red Hat) would kick back, and remember how cool UO was, and we'd kick back and BS about the game, and the lore, and the original series, for hours on end. Those are the type that would come back, if it were worth coming back to. For all I know, some of them might even be interested in PvP - I know I was in the mood to kill on some days...

The problem is, when I suggest those things, no one wanted to hear them. The PKs were like "no! no! no! Too hard! no! no! no! You ________in' _______!! Go back to Trammel!" And the non-PvPers didn't back me up, because it didn't take PKing out of the equation...in fact, in certain places, it encourages it!!

There is no way to please both sides on this I fear. I think maybe the devs were right. Isolated environments might be the only answer. I was once hopeful that both sides could compromise, but it has become increasing apparent that is not going to happen.

A lot of us felt, and feel, shouted down no matter what we think/say/offer. I may well be the only *Trammie* left with any fight in him... but at this point, I'm wondering to myself if that fight is for the shard I believe in, which will have good points for everyone involved, or if that fight is just stubbornness against letting certain people, who won't be named, win by default.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I had one go so far as to ask me if it would still load on a Vic20...

OMG! I am only 28, but I am geek enough to know what a Vic20 is! That was like the precursor to the Commodore 64! (my brother had a C64 back when I was like 5 or 6. We used to play Moon Patrol and Dig Dug on it. He played other stuff, but I was too little to understand those games. It's funny because now I have a C64 emulator, and I play those games and remember them like it was yesterday! I guess I am a nostalgic creature!)

But a lot of my colleagues (especially the ones over at Red Hat)

You work for RedHat? I know A LOT of people over there. I used to work with like half of them at Nortel before everybody got the axe!!

A lot of us felt, and feel, shouted down no matter what we think/say/offer. I may well be the only *Trammie* left with any fight in him... but at this point, I'm wondering to myself if that fight is for the shard I believe in, which will have good points for everyone involved, or if that fight is just stubbornness against letting certain people, who won't be named, win by default.

Thing is, I felt that way in the beta. My brother and his friend got me started playing Diablo...none of his friends wanted to be the girl character, so they got me to play. Best thing that ever happened to me! (besides my daughter of course!) Anyway, when UO came out, I was all excited. I got accepted for the beta (lied about my age btw! ) and started playing. I was PKed so many times. All I ever wanted to do was tame stuff. That, to me, was the coolest! Well, that and owning a house, but that came later. Anyway, by the time the game launched, I was pretty fed up with jerk-wad PKs, and I almost didn't even play. My brother didn't play, but his friend did, and he talked me into it (Mr. Clean...it's all Clean's fault!!! )

Anyway, I took being PK'ed VERY personally at first, but I learned quickly that the best way to avoid that feeling was to avenge myself...tenfold...upon the little weasels that had killed me. So Clean and I joined the Regulators (TR). At first they were all about hunting PKs. That changed because the GuildMaster, Hawthorne, got into some disagree with someone, so they started PKing. Some of us quit, and we formed PoV for the sole purpose of exacting player justice.

So for me, I sort of understand the aversion people have to being PKed, but at the same time, I always saw this as a higher function of the game. You PvM'ed, crafted, etc. to gain the necessary skills and material to become a champion of virtue, and to change the world.

Corny...I know. rolleyes:

But that is what UO was to me...and it always will be.

So when I want an open PvP shard, it's because I want that purpose back. I know that you say you don't enjoy PvP, or didn't, but if you never experienced from the virtuous side, all I can say is...you gotta try it!

I really hope we all get that chance.

 

[phantus]

A lot of us felt, and feel, shouted down no matter what we think/say/offer. I may well be the only *Trammie* left with any fight in him... but at this point, I'm wondering to myself if that fight is for the shard I believe in, which will have good points for everyone involved, or if that fight is just stubbornness against letting certain people, who won't be named, win by default.

I honestly don't believe the team currently deciding on the classic shard creation are targeting the trammel crowd. They have a great deal of them for the most part. The classic shard target from a decision factor will have to appeal to the audience that can support it's creation. I strongly feel that target audience is not trammel style players.

If one could dream. It's my beliefe they will be using existing server code and turning off the parts that aren't conforming the classic shard idea. In doing so they will have the opportunity to create a trammel off switch. Much of the problem with trammel it's the extra landmass. There would have to be only 1 brittain for a shard to be classic. This could always be turned on as a switch system on an additional shard. I did say dream mind you.

I really hope some people can let go of the publish date strategy. There are too many server side stability fixes and patches not relating to those times that will not be taken out because of their overall benefit. This is my basis for believing existing code will used instead of some backup. Some things are just not going to be the same. I don't like the paint yourself in a corner ideas either.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I honestly don't believe the team currently deciding on the classic shard creation are targeting the trammel crowd. They have a great deal of them for the most part. The classic shard target from a decision factor will have to appeal to the audience that can support it's creation. I strongly feel that target audience is not trammel style players.

If one could dream. It's my beliefe they will be using existing server code and turning off the parts that aren't conforming the classic shard idea. In doing so they will have the opportunity to create a trammel off switch. Much of the problem with trammel it's the extra landmass. There would have to be only 1 brittain for a shard to be classic. This could always be turned on as a switch system on an additional shard. I did say dream mind you.

I really hope some people can let go of the publish date strategy. There are too many server side stability fixes and patches not relating to those times that will not be taken out because of their overall benefit. This is my basis for believing existing code will used instead of some backup. Some things are just not going to be the same. I don't like the paint yourself in a corner ideas either.

Good post...and you are probably 100% right.

The primary question in the 'turning things off' scenario is...what will it break?

If these in-game systems were not designed to be optional, it might cause some major problems when they start turning off things...like AoS properties in particular.

I am not saying this isn't the best way to proceed...it's probably the avenue I would explore first if I were in charge of this project (assuming I didn't have old server code to fall back on). Even still, if I DID have old code...I might still have a go at making the current code conform to the specs of the project just to create ease of support for the long run.

I think a lot of Classic fans need to understand that IF the devs are indeed working backward with the current code, that hitting even an 80-85% accuracy to any specific publish is going to phenomenally difficult. There were so many tiny little behind the scenes mechanisms that have been tweaked, changed, and even removed since then that it might not even be possible to recreated it accurately without starting from old code, or scratch.

And doing either of those to satisfy minute details is unlikely at best.

 

[Guido_LS]

You work for RedHat? I know A LOT of people over there. I used to work with like half of them at Nortel before everybody got the axe!!

Nah, my geek isn't that deep, although I adopted before a lot of the staff there knew what Linux is, who Linus is, and that RedHat isn't just the coal cap on Wolfie's head... I'm NC State staff, and teach in the Dept of Philosophy and Religious Studies, while (not seriously) working on my PhD. I just like hanging out with the cool kids

So when I want an open PvP shard, it's because I want that purpose back. I know that you say you don't enjoy PvP, or didn't, but if you never experienced from the virtuous side, all I can say is...you gotta try it!

I really hope we all get that chance.

I wasn't day 1, or 2, or even 30 - I came in mid '99 or so. And by that time, the virtues that I had grown so accustomed to from playing 1-9 et al were already dead on LS. That's not to say there weren't some decent people on LS - there most certainly were. There still are, for that matter. I live right around the corner from Stupid Miner, as far as that goes. But (in my jaded memory) they were in the minority. I guess when you don't know from one minute to the next if the server will be up, or if your ping will shoot to 10k, and the words server stability were an oxymoron, getting somewhat nasty is expected.

So I gave up early on trying to get immersed in the lore - it didn't exist. I'd have left LS fairly quickly if I hadn't of met some of the nicest people in any setting that I've ever known - the real shame there is that they remained only pixels... that, and I completely lost touch with them.

As far as PvP goes, if this happens, we'll see just how level the playing field is, how the various cheat fixes work (or don't) and I may just give it a go again.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Nah, my geek isn't that deep, although I adopted before a lot of the staff there knew what Linux is, who Linus is, and that RedHat isn't just the coal cap on Wolfie's head... I'm NC State staff, and teach in the Dept of Philosophy and Religious Studies, while (not seriously) working on my PhD. I just like hanging out with the cool kids

We should talk! Are you in Raleigh?

I wasn't day 1, or 2, or even 30 - I came in mid '99 or so. And by that time, the virtues that I had grown so accustomed to from playing 1-9 et al were already dead on LS. That's not to say there weren't some decent people on LS - there most certainly were. There still are, for that matter. I live right around the corner from Stupid Miner, as far as that goes. But (in my jaded memory) they were in the minority. I guess when you don't know from one minute to the next if the server will be up, or if your ping will shoot to 10k, and the words server stability were an oxymoron, getting somewhat nasty is expected.

So I gave up early on trying to get immersed in the lore - it didn't exist.

That's the best part! It didn't exist until WE made it!

UO was not about the previous Ultima lore...it was about making lore, and shaping the world.

I'd have left LS fairly quickly if I hadn't of met some of the nicest people in any setting that I've ever known - the real shame there is that they remained only pixels... that, and I completely lost touch with them.

I understand this. There are so many people that were in PoV, and I tried to make time to get to know each and every one of them. I didn't, not as well as I would have liked to, but I still miss every single one of them.

As far as PvP goes, if this happens, we'll see just how level the playing field is, how the various cheat fixes work (or don't) and I may just give it a go again.

You come and join PoV. If the playing field is not level...we will level it.

 

[Kaleb]

Nah, my geek isn't that deep, although I adopted before a lot of the staff there knew what Linux is, who Linus is, and that RedHat isn't just the coal cap on Wolfie's head... I'm NC State staff, and teach in the Dept of Philosophy and Religious Studies, while (not seriously) working on my PhD. I just like hanging out with the cool kids



I wasn't day 1, or 2, or even 30 - I came in mid '99 or so. And by that time, the virtues that I had grown so accustomed to from playing 1-9 et al were already dead on LS. That's not to say there weren't some decent people on LS - there most certainly were. There still are, for that matter. I live right around the corner from Stupid Miner, as far as that goes. But (in my jaded memory) they were in the minority. I guess when you don't know from one minute to the next if the server will be up, or if your ping will shoot to 10k, and the words server stability were an oxymoron, getting somewhat nasty is expected.

So I gave up early on trying to get immersed in the lore - it didn't exist. I'd have left LS fairly quickly if I hadn't of met some of the nicest people in any setting that I've ever known - the real shame there is that they remained only pixels... that, and I completely lost touch with them.

As far as PvP goes, if this happens, we'll see just how level the playing field is, how the various cheat fixes work (or don't) and I may just give it a go again.

I totally agree with you, I respect your reservations and that is why I suggested early on C1 that they should Include a trammel rule set server of the same type. But let them work on getting the first one off, Never know we have players here myself included with over 12 years in UO who have learned from past mistakes who agree on a core rule set (now Known as Fel pre AOS). Plus you need to understand We who are for a Classic shard know its not going to be a shard based around PvP, I play it everyday and see the positive effects I just wish I can play a mythic supported version.

as for PKs the penalty needs to be harsh, but not so harsh it will make the playstyle obsolete.

-Stat loss/skill loss on rez(faction type, -20% skill/stats for 30 mins)
-No use of npc's or cities besides bucs and what npc's bucs provides.
-No use of moongates, and all blessed/newbie items drop not limited to spell/rune books.
-Can only rez at Chaos shrine or by player.

-Blues commit murder- After one count short or long cannot recall if attacked.

This I feel will help against Issues with PK's, there will be some it will be challenging for them but yet not obsolete. And with the blue murder rule it really makes a blue decide if killing that guy is worth losing a great PK defense ability in using recall when attacked. seriously to me its a win win for all play styles.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

As crazy as this sounds, it would be nice to hear Peaches chime in about what she would like to see on a classic shard. I don't know if she's still around the stratics community or even with us still in RL, but even though I know I didn't agree with most of what she said I respected her opinion. I'd like to hear her thoughts on what a good system to deal with PK's would be.

As for the Blues who have a murder count not being able to recall if attacked, that sounds good. *Edit* Prior comment on this portion has been deleted because I miscomprehended what was being said.*Edit*

Now if the functionality of the recall spell worked like that for everyone regardless of murder counts that might be acceptable, but then you're essentially dooming crafters and gatherers to being even more defenseless fodder for the gankers out there.

 

[kelmo]

*smiles* I saw Peaches viewing Stratics just a few days ago.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

Hmmm...I wouldn't refuse to play on a shard that had it one way or the other.

Truth is, the only people I see asking for no security on houses are people that are looking to loot houses.

That's like people asking for no penalties on PKs...they generally want to play PKs.

Everyone seems to want whatever makes it easiest for their particular playstyle. I understand that. But is this truly what is in the best interest of the shard?

houselooting is one of the thing that excite me the most but i would never ask for no secures/lockdowns . The houses had A STRICT amount of secures and 125 item per secure, so there would be a lot of lootable **** even if you had secures/lockdowns enabled

 

[Kaleb]

Now if the functionality of the recall spell worked like that for everyone regardless of murder counts that might be acceptable, but then you're essentially dooming crafters and gatherers to being even more defenseless fodder for the gankers out there.

Under what I stated with blues with counts they should have no problem getting away if they are free of counts, without bonding their pet may be left behind but its a small price for survival. Just a quick UO macro when you see a red name come on screen can get you away from anywhere,there are no places in game a blue would not be able to recall from if they are free of counts even T2a or ilsh. if it were added.

I think the biggest issue will be Friendly fire, all someone has to do is walk into a field, in front of blade spirit or EV die and get you for murder. I think some things will need to be tweaked to prevent the grief tactics friendly fire can allow.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Under what I stated with blues with counts they should have no problem getting away if they are free of counts, without bonding their pet may be left behind but its a small price for survival. Just a quick UO macro when you see a red name come on screen can get you away from anywhere,there are no places in game a blue would not be able to recall from if they are free of counts even T2a or ilsh. if it were added.

I think the biggest issue will be Friendly fire, all someone has to do is walk into a field, in front of blade spirit or EV die and get you for murder. I think some things will need to be tweaked to prevent the grief tactics friendly fire can allow.

I'm sorry, I didn't edit my prior post thoroughly enough. I had originally understood what you were saying as applying somewhat differently than I got when I re-read the post, thus why I edited it. I obviously missed that last part, I was in a hurry when I edited it.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

The shadowlords are taking over... noone is yet doomed but the structure will collapse in short order if noone lets go off the religious "god driven" penalty part of being "bad".

Anyways I warned you ; I'll go away until the lies, cowardice and hatred dissipates.

Namase.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

So right now, would anyone say that they are firmly against extra PK penalties of any kind? Or just against the ideas that have been posted in the other thread?

Anyone else have any ideas?

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

My path as a companion leads me elsewhere in the galaxy now.

I'm not against the classic rules, my most fun time was when my murderer risked his life everytime he got out.

So yes I have an idea, but noone needs it, since this is all so illogical and I seem to be the main reason for that. I'm leaving.

You'll never see me log into stratics or UO again, and I leave without remorse.

At least I'll make happy those two people who didn't understand voting the thread as ONE star still makes it more visually attractive than if it had no star at all.

I rest my case, do not expect any answer to PMs or otherwise. The only reason I might be seen on again will be to see if Nick-of-time came around to say hi.

Hope everyone has a good life, may you live it virtuously and keep the shadowlords out of your life.

Fare thee well Avatar !

 

[Tanivar]

So right now, would anyone say that they are firmly against extra PK penalties of any kind?

I'm all for enough PK penalties to prevent the Classic Shard from being what the game was that caused Tram to become nessesary.

No one playstyle should be allowed to actively, seriously block the ability of other playstyles to be fun to play. Going out where Reds wander should not be a near guarenteed dirtnap. No matter how much fun it happens to be for the Reds.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Nothing that I haven't mentioned in prior posts.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

My path as a companion leads me elsewhere in the galaxy now.

I'm not against the classic rules, my most fun time was when my murderer risked his life everytime he got out.

So yes I have an idea, but noone needs it, since this is all so illogical and I seem to be the main reason for that. I'm leaving.

You'll never see me log into stratics or UO again, and I leave without remorse.

At least I'll make happy those two people who didn't understand voting the thread as ONE star still makes it more visually attractive than if it had no star at all.

I rest my case, do not expect any answer to PMs or otherwise. The only reason I might be seen on again will be to see if Nick-of-time came around to say hi.

Hope everyone has a good life, may you live it virtuously and keep the shadowlords out of your life.

Fare thee well Avatar !

Bye Ahu.

See you next week