Classic Shard #2

[Evlar]

That all being said, once everyone decides what a "classic shard" is, I say EA/Mythic should give it to ya. I'll be interested in seeing who is satisfied once they get what they think they want.

There is a sticky at the top of UHall...that's more or less what the majority of us (classic shard supporters) consider to be "classic".

This is a common tactic amongst anti-classic shard/pro-no risk, item based fans use to attempt to derail the topic of a classic shard.

"Oh, look, they don't even know what they want!!"

Lies. Pure and simple...lies.

The truth is that most of us just want pre-AoS and pre-Trammel, and don't really care about a lot of the smaller details.

There are some people that post here that want a Trammel-based Classic Shard, but they are few compared to those that want it to be Classic ruleset.

It sounds to me, based on your post, that you are very content with the game as it is currently. So my best advice is to ignore Classic Shard threads, because you are going to find an awful lot of people that aren't...and none of your patronizing, smug, diatribes are going to change that.

...and you know what makes me chuckle the most?

Just scan through a few pages of U-Hall... it's mostly topics and posts from people who are supposedly happy and content with UO in its current format... moaning and complaining about aspects of its content!

Oh the irony!

 

[Beleg Megil]

because ONE man wanted to make it item based? It's commonly known the guy who made AoS is the WoW lead designer, and he wanted to get a job with Blizzard, so he made AoS in order to add it onto his resume. So he left us right after that, and is still the lead designer of WoW. That's a big reason I want a classic shard, UO was turned into a WoW clone even before WoW just so Mr. Chilton could impress a few people and get a new job...

And because the man who made the game and hated the idea was forced out? Had EA not made some huge mistakes, Lord British would have been around still to direct things. He never did us wrong all the way back to the 1970s, I doubt he would have from 2000 on.

/massive Vent

So because of that you think us wanting to go back to the way the game was meant to be played is wrong?

First, UO has never been very much like WoW. Sure, its a game on the internet with graphics and swords...but...meh...

Second, I don't think its up you you to decide how the game was "meant" to be played. And its not up to Richard Garriott any more. Sure, it was based on the Ultima series, but it has never been part of the Ultima series. In Ultima I (first Ultima title was 1980, btw)"the Stranger is first summoned to Sosaria to defeat the evil wizard Mondain who aims to enslave it. Since Mondain possesses the Gem of Immortality, which makes him invulnerable, the Stranger locates a time machine, travels back in time to kill Mondain before he creates the Gem, and shatters the incomplete artifact." That's where UO's connection to the Ultima series starts and ends. This leaves room for creativity and new content/expansions/evolution, which is needed for an MMORPG. If shards, content, and gameplay had not evolved, UO would not be around for you to complain about except as emulator versions.

Its up to EA/Mythic, with the feedback of the players...all of us...to determine how the game is "meant" to be played . And despite what you may think, there are more forms of feedback than Stratics.

As I said, give the noisey minority on Stratics their "classic shard". As long as it doesn't cut into the time developers have for working on current shards and new content.

But I'm not convinced moving backwards, or regressing, will bring EA/Mythic any new income from new players. Its counter-intuitive. They may get a bump from old players reactivating for a couple months out of a sense of nostalgia, but none of us are the same people we were 13 years ago. 13 years ago, everything UO did was new. It was the "only game in town". Games have evolved since then. There are always new choices and new games coming out. The consequence of that is, people will leave and stop paying for UO to pay for and try other games reguardless of what UO does. UO has managed to remain UO and is still unique as it is, but trying to recreate the past won't be the answer to the longevity of UO. Only advertising and putting a product on store shelves will do that.

But like I said, I'm up for giving you what you think you want (once you all decide what that is) as long as it doesn't detract from the majority of players who are fine with current shards and would rather the money and time be spent on improving and expanding what we already have.

My main wish is, if they DO do this, and they go with player housing, I hope its:
A.) the old, deeded, non-customizable houses, maybe with the lovely bonus of if you get PKed and your key is looted, all your base are belong to PK.
and
B.) Any house you place counts as the 1 house per account rule. If you want a house on the classic shard, you lose your spot on current shards.

 

[Beleg Megil]

There is a sticky at the top of UHall...that's more or less what the majority of us (classic shard supporters) consider to be "classic".

This is a common tactic amongst anti-classic shard/pro-no risk, item based fans use to attempt to derail the topic of a classic shard.

"Oh, look, they don't even know what they want!!"

Lies. Pure and simple...lies.

The truth is that most of us just want pre-AoS and pre-Trammel, and don't really care about a lot of the smaller details.

There are some people that post here that want a Trammel-based Classic Shard, but they are few compared to those that want it to be Classic ruleset.

It sounds to me, based on your post, that you are very content with the game as it is currently. So my best advice is to ignore Classic Shard threads, because you are going to find an awful lot of people that aren't...and none of your patronizing, smug, diatribes are going to change that.

Your posts contradicts itself. If you all know what you want, there wouldn't be "some people that post here that want a Trammel-based Classic Shard, but they are few compared to those that want it to be Classic ruleset". Apparently there are enough worth mentioning.

I read the sticky, and the poll, and they are hardly unanimous. 567 voters (and I'd like to see the breakdown of puppet accounts) with just over a 50% majority on one of the 4 voting options. Only 288 total voters (again, wonder how many are unique posters and actual current paying players) will be get what they want if the developers follow the vote.

"It sounds to me, based on your post" that you missed the part where I said in multiple posts I was FOR giving the 567 Stratics accounts that voted a "classic shard". With the understanding that I won't appreciate it if it hinders moving FORWARD with the shards that exist currently in their attempt to take a giant 12 year leap backwards. So to label me as "anti-classic shard/pro-no risk blah blah blah" means you either lack reading comprehension or you are just bitter someone has a different opinion than you.


And "It sounds to me, based on your post" that you don't want the Dev's who may or may not read this thread and may be considering making a "classic shard" to know that there are players who are against it, if it takes time and money away from developing the current shards. If the Devs can convince me that coming up with a classic shard WON'T have any bearing on the development of current shards, new content, bug fixes and such, then by all means, knock your rose-colored, nostalgic, retro-socks off.


And as for your "best advice" to ignore Classic Shard threads?

Tough. I'll keep letting the Devs know my thoughts about it. Get over it. I won't be ignoring classic shard threads.

 

[Archie]

*points Beleg to the anti-classic shard troll thread*

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=213230

Kafka was nice enough to start it for you.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

Your posts contradicts itself. If you all know what you want, there wouldn't be "some people that post here that want a Trammel-based Classic Shard, but they are few compared to those that want it to be Classic ruleset". Apparently there are enough worth mentioning.

This is very fallacious logic and I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to base an argument on it, you find me a group of players that agree on everything even in current UO and I've got some beach front property on the moon to sell you.

"It sounds to me, based on your post" that you missed the part where I said in multiple posts I was FOR giving the 567 Stratics accounts that voted a "classic shard". With the understanding that I won't appreciate it if it hinders moving FORWARD with the shards that exist currently in their attempt to take a giant 12 year leap backwards. So to label me as "anti-classic shard/pro-no risk blah blah blah" means you either lack reading comprehension or you are just bitter someone has a different opinion than you.

Seems to me that you are quite anti-classic and that is of course your right, by and large however it is out of our hands, if the devs decide to go through with it then they will, if not then they won't that simple.

Our opinion is that it would be a twelve year leap forward in regards to the current state of the game, this is of course the sticking point in our little discussion.

And as for your "best advice" to ignore Classic Shard threads?

Tough. I'll keep letting the Devs know my thoughts about it. Get over it. I won't be ignoring classic shard threads.

I'm sure you will keep letting the devs know your thoughts on it, but then again the devs pretty much know both sides of the argument as well as they need to, we just keep this thread open to toss ideas back and forth with each other for the most part.

 

[Derium of ls]

First, UO has never been very much like WoW. Sure, its a game on the internet with graphics and swords...but...meh...
]

I stopped reading there, I'll read on after you turn in a book report on Tom Chilton, then try and tell me about how UO was never much like WoW...

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Your posts contradicts itself.

So does yours.

It sounds to me like you would be better off concentrating on threads that concern you, and not this one.

Can we get a mod over here to bounce this troll please?

 

[Beleg Megil]

It concerns me, as I said, because:

A.) I am a paying customer
B.) Unless a Dev corrects me, it seems common sense that developing a classic shard will take time, energy and resources away from the current shards. Issues such as fixing bugs, final touches on the EC, the Faction revamping, new content, etc.
C.) there were 567 voters in the poll about what a classic shard should entail. Among those voters were many puppet accounts and ex-players that you in no way can guarantee will becoming paying customers again even if they get what they voted for. I don't see why the Devs should pander to a partially artificial minority.
D.) If EA/Mythic is going to lure in new players or ex-players, the only proven way to do that is to advertise and put a product on store shelves. A classic shard would be nice for some, but if the choice is between that and spending some cash to remind people UO is still alive and unique among MMORPGs, I'd rather they do the later. It makes sense that would be better for the longevity of UO.

How does this thread not concern me and how are my opinions trolling? And please leave the profane insults out of it if you respond. (yeah, i saw that. )

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

C.) there were 567 voters in the poll about what a classic shard should entail. Among those voters were many puppet accounts and ex-players that you in no way can guarantee will becoming paying customers again even if they get what they voted for. I don't see why the Devs should pander to a partially artificial minority.

We don't know how many were puppet accounts but it may be a leap to say many, it's also important to realize that stratics isn't the only place that is keeping an eye on the subject.

You cannot guarantee that every ex player will return but I would feel comfortable wagering that if the shard gets built a lot of the old players will return.

D.) If EA/Mythic is going to lure in new players or ex-players, the only proven way to do that is to advertise and put a product on store shelves. A classic shard would be nice for some, but if the choice is between that and spending some cash to remind people UO is still alive and unique among MMORPGs, I'd rather they do the later. It makes sense that would be better for the longevity of UO.

UO probably isn't going to snare that many more new players, it's old and it's niche for it's style of gameplay, the market today is far to diverse and advanced for UO to be a serious contender in it.

Store shelves, not really a great idea for UO, for the reasons cited above. Theres no point for EA to invest that kind of money when they can just push the new product directly to their subscriber base and keep the cash cow going as long as possible.

Also the concept of buying games in a store seems to be slipping by the wayside, unless you go to a game stop or some other game specific outlet, I have seen game sections shrink more and more each year in many shopping centers.

 

[Beleg Megil]

UO probably isn't going to snare that many more new players, it's old and it's niche for it's style of gameplay, the market today is far to diverse and advanced for UO to be a serious contender in it.

Store shelves, not really a great idea for UO, for the reasons cited above. Theres no point for EA to invest that kind of money when they can just push the new product directly to their subscriber base and keep the cash cow going as long as possible.

Also the concept of buying games in a store seems to be slipping by the wayside, unless you go to a game stop or some other game specific outlet, I have seen game sections shrink more and more each year in many shopping centers.

UO Gold sold quite well a couple years back. It wasn't an expansion, no new content, but it did bring in new players who were looking for a WoW alternative and let lots of old players know it was still around. $9.99 as a Walmart exclusive. It also had the added bonus revenue generated by existing players who bought it both for the bonus in-game items and as a cheaper way to upgrade accounts to ML. Pretty sure I read somewhere that all units sold out. UO, with the proper marketting, can still be a serious contender. Its pretty unique. That's for a different thread though.

 

[Evlar]

Beleg - I hear and agree where you're coming from when it comes to "proper" marketing. I've always preferred a tangible product... a disc... in a box, from a store.

Fact is though, digital media such as games, music, movies, is increasingly sold via digital downloads. It doesn't cost shelf space for stores and it's arguably less costly to promote. The number one medium by which to market an online game is fairly obvious... via the internet. UO could certainly benefit by being added to some of the online stores, such as Steam. If they set the price at $5 a pop, then I'm sure it would sell well.

Now I don't think I'm alone when I say that should EA/Mythic provide a "classic" option, I believe most of the "hype" will come from games players themselves.

Have a browse through a few MMO and MMORPG forums around the net (aside from Stratics...) and you'll see what I'm talking about. Just the mention that the senior UO developer for Mythic has made a comment, no matter how small, but one that suggests it's something under consideration, has created a buzz around various gaming forums.

When you see threads in forums for other games and even forums for the "free" servers, then you know there's a foot firmly in the door, so to speak. EA/Mythic would likely need very little, if any, marketing expenditure to promote any "classic" shards. People would very quickly find out.

Assuming that if Cal has approached the "people upstairs" about classic servers, which his comments suggests he already has, then it's up to the number crunchers. I would imagine part of the proposal would involve some sort of budgetary committment from EA, so the more they can save on marketing, the more they can spend on the product itself.

Hell, there's plenty of us about who'll spread the news for them, completely free of charge.

As for the longevity of any "classic" shards. That is the big question mark. Something that I pondered over, was that I believe it would actually be easier for players to get back into a classic option. Assuming things will remain pretty much the same over time, you may have players (just like with the production shards), who leave, return, leave, return... but still pay their subscriptions. Over the long term though, I would have thought that people are more likely to return to somethign they "know", over something that may have changed incredibly since they last played.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

UO Gold sold quite well a couple years back. It wasn't an expansion, no new content, but it did bring in new players who were looking for a WoW alternative and let lots of old players know it was still around. $9.99 as a Walmart exclusive. It also had the added bonus revenue generated by existing players who bought it both for the bonus in-game items and as a cheaper way to upgrade accounts to ML. Pretty sure I read somewhere that all units sold out. UO, with the proper marketting, can still be a serious contender. Its pretty unique. That's for a different thread though.

That was a few years ago and many of those players I would guess are long gone, and you said it best yourself they were looking for a wow alternative and likely didn't find it, UO has become a poor mans wow with a few minor differences.

UO will not again be a contender, it just isn't going to happen short of completely relaunching the game to bring it into more modern times. I feel comfortable stating that, no amount of marketing is going to make it compete with WoW or Aion or any of the other popular games that are on the market.

If the day comes where I am wrong I will happily admit it, but if I were a betting man, I would feel comfortable betting the house on UO not making any big splashes in the market.

 

[Evlar]

The only place UO will compete with WoW, is in China, where apparently WoW ain't working at present (plug pulled there?). But that won't be this UO... it'll be the "new" NetDragon UO...

As for "our" UO, it's always going to be a small niche. It must be profitable, otherwise it wouldn't be around still. It's come perilously close on more than one occasion to the great void though.

I don't know about breathing new life into the game, but we can certainly bring back some "old" life, with a considerable amount of returning players.

 

[Evlar]

I'd be very interested in a classic shard with the following conditions:

1) No AoS and spell casting same as pre AoS casting/recovery.

2) No customisable housing.

3) No Neon clothes.

4) No Ilshenar/Malas whatever as it spreads people too thin.

5) No runic weapons

6) I can run around in my pants slaughtering newbies.

1 to 5... groovy.

6... well, doubt you'll get many "true" newbies. You'll get more players who know the score and fight back though

 

[Archie]

The Murderers' guild idea leads me to a bit of an OT comment. I've always wanted to see something like that but allow all NPC guilds to talk to each other just like 'real guilds'. You're a thief and need some back up? you just ask all your fellow thieves to come help! Even for crafting guilds it would be cool.

Okay, there is me random thought for the day.

You mean when players join an NPC guild? (It would allow players to talk in an NPC guild chat? That would be pretty cool, but what about the NPCs?!?)

Murderers' guild: Only requires 60 spirit speak to join and stay in the guild, but is tied to stat loss. The formula could be something easy, like:

% stat loss = (100 - spirit speak) / 2

100 spirit speak - 0% loss
80 spirit speak - 10% loss
60 spirit speak - 20% loss

That would encourage people who have a pk char to work that char's spirit speak up to a high level. The reasoning? It would give them less points for other skills, and because their character has high spirit speak, they wouldn't have to macro as a ghost!

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

I'm still in favor of public humiliation at a public place when your red PK dies after 6+ murders. There would be no stat loss and the time served would be until the murder counts decayed to 4. I am still up in the air as to weather the player would need to be logged in. I think they should be able to just count the time down without being in the game, but I'm sure there are others who would want them to have to be online and at the keyboard the entire time they were in the pillory. Personally I think it would be a novel way to advertise your player run shops and establishments. "When I buy my regs I buy them at Joe Schmoes...that is if I don't take them from his dead corpse!"

Honestly though, the type of player who tends to play the PK/ganker/griefer (as opposed to the regular PvPer) tends to be very egocentric and hates to be embarassed, thus putting them on display when they die would be a great way to deter people from PKing and encourage them to use consensual forms of PvP such as the O/C system or guild wars..

 

[Archie]

I'm still in favor of public humiliation at a public place when your red PK dies after 6+ murders. There would be no stat loss and the time served would be until the murder counts decayed to 4. I am still up in the air as to weather the player would need to be logged in. I think they should be able to just count the time down without being in the game, but I'm sure there are others who would want them to have to be online and at the keyboard the entire time they were in the pillory. Personally I think it would be a novel way to advertise your player run shops and establishments. "When I buy my regs I buy them at Joe Schmoes...that is if I don't take them from his dead corpse!"

Honestly though, the type of player who tends to play the PK/ganker/griefer (as opposed to the regular PvPer) tends to be very egocentric and hates to be embarassed, thus putting them on display when they die would be a great way to deter people from PKing and encourage them to use consensual forms of PvP such as the O/C system or guild wars..

Detectives' Guild: 60 forensic eval, 60 detect hidden, 60 tracking to join and stay in the guild.

At 80/80/80, the detective develops the ability to uncover clues at the scene of the crime that allows them to track a character at great distances. (In other words, recalling or gating away would not be a fool proof escape, and the detective would not need a corpse or bones to uncover clues.)

At 100/100/100, the detective can uncover clues more easily and can track much further. Plus they could query certain NPCs to see where the criminal was last seen, which would be useful to pick up a cold trail, and maybe catch someone online at just the right time. (Wandering healers, order guards, town guards for town crimes, nobles who travel, etc. might have information on criminals. Oh, and of course barkeeps.)

Any detective can serve a summons, once they've caught up to the criminal. Once a summons is successfully served, it will only be a matter of time before the Mounties come and take the criminal away for their trial.

Any criminal (murderer, thief, gray looter) would have to go to court once served a summons. Victims might get compensation upon a successful trial (which it would be), and your idea of public humiliation would also work. Have stockades where their character is stuck for days, weeks, or months, depending on the severity of the crimes. None of this 2 minute criminal flag, die, and lose perma-gray. (Compensation for victims would have to be small, or maybe insurance could be taken out on items as a gold sink, and once the criminal was convicted, the item would be returned. Item ID could be used to determine which insured items are "hot", so that players don't buy ill-gotten loot off vendors, only to have it confiscated later.)

Someone with 500 murders might have their character locked in the stockade for months, whereas a petty thief might be locked up for days. But the slow town guards who don't insta-kill would be more fun than the crazy meth guards.

The fun in it for detectives is putting criminals out of commission for a while. The fun in it for murderers, thieves and looters is to not get caught!

 

[Kaleb]

NO,NO,NO No stupid jail system that makes a player NOT be able to use his character at all. What has already been in game all together will work just fine for PK's

Stat/skill loss like 20-30 mins like factions and is stackable in loss of skills stats and time up to err down to say 50%.
No virtues or use of.
No blessed or newbie items (can be used but fall on corpse).
cannot enter GZ.
Can only rez at Chaos shrine or by player,.
no use of non player made moongates.
all previously tamed will attack.

almost all have been in game(except the faction like stackable loss) but never at the same time, if all would have been active at the same time then PK's would be few but totally playable. It would have ensured that only the greatest pks/pvpers would be about. we dont need a whole bunch of new rules to make trammel inside a fel ruleset shard. We dont want a dumbed down easy version of UO.

 

[Archie]

NO,NO,NO No stupid jail system that makes a player NOT be able to use his character at all. What has already been in game all together will work just fine for PK's

Stat/skill loss like 20-30 mins like factions and is stackable in loss of skills stats and time up to err down to say 50%.
No virtues or use of.
No blessed or newbie items (can be used but fall on corpse).
cannot enter GZ.
Can only rez at Chaos shrine or by player,.
no use of non player made moongates.
all previously tamed will attack.

almost all have been in game(except the faction like stackable loss) but never at the same time, if all would have been active at the same time then PK's would be few but totally playable. It would have ensured that only the greatest pks/pvpers would be about. we dont need a whole bunch of new rules to make trammel inside a fel ruleset shard. We dont want a dumbed down easy version of UO.

PvP will always be available. (Order/Chaos) What was always missing was a way for players to serve justice, instead of contrived mechanics to prevent bad behavior.

For example, back in the day a thief could steal a house deed that some player worked weeks or months to acquire. So for the "hard" task of hanging around hidden in the carpenter shop, a thief was greatly rewarded at another player's detriment. Same with a murderer who killed for the deed before the house was placed, or back in the day, took someone's house keys.

So weeks or months down the drain because the game mechanics did not give the players an opportunity to get justice. (Reds would usually recall away when threatened with force, and thieves could get right back in the game after two minutes down time.)

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. (Or, don't get caught.)

But it's entirely fair that if someone has a pk character with lots and lots of murder counts, and that character gets caught by a detective, then the character is put out of commission for a long while, like the weeks and months of time that they took off other players.

Or is that too tough?

 

[Tanivar]

PvP will always be available. (Order/Chaos) What was always missing was a way for players to serve justice, instead of contrived mechanics to prevent bad behavior.

For example, back in the day a thief could steal a house deed that some player worked weeks or months to acquire. So for the "hard" task of hanging around hidden in the carpenter shop, a thief was greatly rewarded at another player's detriment. Same with a murderer who killed for the deed before the house was placed, or back in the day, took someone's house keys.

So weeks or months down the drain because the game mechanics did not give the players an opportunity to get justice. (Reds would usually recall away when threatened with force, and thieves could get right back in the game after two minutes down time.)

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. (Or, don't get caught.)

But it's entirely fair that if someone has a pk character with lots and lots of murder counts, and that character gets caught by a detective, then the character is put out of commission for a long while, like the weeks and months of time that they took off other players.

Or is that too tough?

Maybe there is hope for a survivable fel-ruleset Classic Shard.

Pkers will scream, whine, cry, pout, moan, pancake, bellyache, and threaten to leave the game though.

Keep in mind, they haven't figured out there will be few if any sheep for them to have fun with for the same reasons there were less & less sheep back in the days when the PKers made Tram neccesary. A couple thousand posts in the two Classic Shard threads have shown that. rolleyes:

Without an effective way to limit the harm PKing will do all over again eleven years later, a fel-ruleset Classic Shard will be a waste of time. The PvMers won't go there or stay long due to rampant PKing, and the PKers will leave as they did 10 years back because the game is no fun. No sheep to kill & rob.

 

[Kaleb]

I never played a red until power scrolls were out, So I wouldn't know. but in no way should a player loose a character/un playable for x-amount of time to burn a count+ that is just straight ******** and this is coming from someone who will be strictly playing a anti PK. There needs to be penalties but there also has to be a reason to play one also, so the penalties cannot be to severe to make the playstyle obsolete. In no way for any reason a player who plays by the rules Not be allowed to play his/her character when he/she so pleases. Hence why NO JAIL SYSTEM.

A majority of people who have posted on what they want in a classic shard and the top 2 are:

#1 No trammel ruleset's anywhere!!
#2 No post AOS Weapon, Armor, Combat, coding.

 

[Archie]

Maybe there is hope for a survivable fel-ruleset Classic Shard.

Pkers will scream, whine, cry, pout, moan, pancake, bellyache, and threaten to leave the game though.

Keep in mind, they haven't figured out there will be few if any sheep for them to have fun with for the same reasons there were less & less sheep back in the days when the PKers made Tram neccesary. A couple thousand posts in the two Classic Shard threads have shown that. rolleyes:

Without an effective way to limit the harm PKing will do all over again eleven years later, a fel-ruleset Classic Shard will be a waste of time. The PvMers won't go there or stay long due to rampant PKing, and the PKers will leave as they did 10 years back because the game is no fun. No sheep to kill & rob.

Well, it also has to be fun for the pks and thieves, but it needs to be hard enough so only skilled players with discretion succeed at being criminals. So detectives should not be able to target anyone and everyone to see who can be served.

Maybe have the bounty board show who the top criminals are, and detectives take the case based on whatever motivates them: revenge, payout, fun, etc. Once they're on the case, they'd get a blessed book that contains the character name and crimes being investigated. If they manage to track down that character, they'd have to do a successful forensic eval check to make sure the book matched the character, and then get within two tiles to drop (throw) the book on the character. Then the criminal would be served.

Of course the courts would get bogged down and could only handle so many cases a day. Some Mounties might be subject to bribes when they come to apprehend the criminal. (Others would not, and trying to bribe them would add to the time served.) Town guards would be slower and would not insta-kill. Detectives could be found out with forensic eval by members of the thieves' or murderers' guilds. Detectives could be murdered! In short, there has to be a reasonable chance to escape, but the important thing is to not let players recall in, gank, recall out, and never be the worse for it, except maybe macroing off their counts.

Contrived mechanics will never be as much fun as putting meaningful justice into the players' hands.

 

[Archie]

I never played a red until power scrolls were out, So I wouldn't know. but in no way should a player loose a character/un playable for x-amount of time to burn a count+ that is just straight ******** and this is coming from someone who will be strictly playing a anti PK. There needs to be penalties but there also has to be a reason to play one also, so the penalties cannot be to severe to make the playstyle obsolete. In no way for any reason a player who plays by the rules Not be allowed to play his/her character when he/she so pleases. Hence why NO JAIL SYSTEM.

A majority of people who have posted on what they want in a classic shard and the top 2 are:

#1 No trammel ruleset's anywhere!!
#2 No post AOS Weapon, Armor, Combat, coding.

Monsters would not be push through.
Houses could be looted.
Deeds could be stolen.
Thieves could escape from the guards.
Murderers could kill detectives.

No Trammel.

 

[o2bavr6]

Houses could be looted.
Deeds could be stolen.

I would have to disagree with you on these two.

At some point there needs to be some kind of safe haven for peoples items, unless they made bank boxes unlimited in the amount of items they could hold.

The reward thieves would get for their skill under you idea well outweighs the reward every other skill requires to obtain something like a house deed.

It simply is not fair for a thief to sit there hidden just to wait and steal a house deed from someone.

Also not sure if you were there in the past but thieves would work in pairs or groups while in town. As an example the first would disarm and try to steal the item. if he got guard killed the second person would insta steal the item at which point he might get guard killed and if he did then the third person would loot his corpse to get the item freely since the corpse was gray. This left the victim with no real way to defend themselves especially when people use a looting script.

Near pub 15 it got to the point that a thief could steal from you in town and if no one saw he would stay blue so you could do nothing about it.

Now I suppose if once a thief steals from someone he is perma gray to that person forever, even if they use something like a disguise kit. then maybe your ideas would be sort of acceptable. at least this way you could kill the thief on site forever and ever until he deleted his char. they could also add some sort of reprieve for the thief that only the person who he stole from could provide. this way the thief say please stop killing me on site, and ill give you back your house deed.

As for lootable house, i'm torn on that too, but am open for suggestions again as long as there is a way to make the thief's life miserable in the same way he would make the person whos house he looted miserable.

again every skill should have some sort of balance, and as you propose the risk vs reward of playing a thief way outbalances the work someone puts in to obtain items.

Edit:
One resolution is not allowing thieves to steal in town under any circumstances.
Second resolution is that the moment a character touches the steps of a house he no longer has the ability to hide under any circumstances. Aside from the home owners characters.

 

[Archie]

I would have to disagree with you on these two.

At some point there needs to be some kind of safe haven for peoples items, unless they made bank boxes unlimited in the amount of items they could hold.

The reward thieves would get for their skill under you idea well outweighs the reward every other skill requires to obtain something like a house deed.

It simply is not fair for a thief to sit there hidden just to wait and steal a house deed from someone.

Also not sure if you were there in the past but thieves would work in pairs or groups while in town. As an example the first would disarm and try to steal the item. if he got guard killed the second person would insta steal the item at which point he might get guard killed and if he did then the third person would loot his corpse to get the item freely since the corpse was gray. This left the victim with no real way to defend themselves especially when people use a looting script.

Near pub 15 it got to the point that a thief could steal from you in town and if no one saw he would stay blue so you could do nothing about it.

Now I suppose if once a thief steals from someone he is perma gray to that person forever, even if they use something like a disguise kit. then maybe your ideas would be sort of acceptable. at least this way you could kill the thief on site forever and ever until he deleted his char. they could also add some sort of reprieve for the thief that only the person who he stole from could provide. this way the thief say please stop killing me on site, and ill give you back your house deed.

As for lootable house, i'm torn on that too, but am open for suggestions again as long as there is a way to make the thief's life miserable in the same way he would make the person whos house he looted miserable.

again every skill should have some sort of balance, and as you propose the risk vs reward of playing a thief way outbalances the work someone puts in to obtain items.

Players used to have to go around paranoid all the time, with pack protection, barriers in their houses, detecting and tracking for thieves and murderers, etc. It was a pain, disruptive, and not relaxing. Personally I didn't mind it, but I got good at a few simple rules to get by.

Keep reflect up. Carry trapped pouches. Have an emergency recall macro, etc.

Those little red boxes could be locked and carry regs and gold safely. Stuff could be added to stacks, but not taken out. And some thieves just couldn't resist the temptation to snoop that boom box!

But it was not fun for players who play the game to do something with their time other than avoid having their time wasted, for a good part of the session, whether pack protecting, being cautious about house security, etc.

What I would like to see is that same level of caution and danger brought to the disruptive players as opposed to recreating an experience like current UO, which already exists. So a classic shard to me is dangerous, free, difficult, and unpredictable. But most importantly it has to be fun. What could possibly be more fun, in a classic shard context, than be able to turn the tables against those players who log in solely to ruin someone else's night? I say, fine, let them try! Just give the players the opportunity to have a meaningful way to extract justice.

Without that, don't bother. It will be a boutique shard and not worth the effort.

I have no problem with newbified house deeds and houses with adequate secure storage so players can protect what they've worked for. But it's not necessary if there is a meaningful way to put thieves and murderers out of commission. (Like, um, any civilized society tries to do.) Not all of the criminals, but enough to make a dent so that there is order, law and justice in the land more than chaos, lawlessness and injustice.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqvcmud3LFQ

 

[Archie]

Hehe, I love that album. (However, not my favorite song.)

 

[Tanivar]

There needs to be penalties

That there certainly does. Penalties that penalize in a serious way. There needs to be nasty risks to go with the big rewards PKers and Thieves easily take.

but there also has to be a reason to play one also,

There is, griefing others in a way that follows game rules..

so the penalties cannot be to severe to make the playstyle obsolete.

Like PKers were making their sheep obsolete back pre-UO:Ren?

In no way for any reason a player who plays by the rules Not be allowed to play his/her character when he/she so pleases. Hence why NO JAIL SYSTEM.

Definitely a Jail System or a penalty that must be burned off while in game. The penalty monitors for unattended macroing. You ruin a lot of our playtime or steal something that takes a lot of work for one of us to get, you risk your fun being ruined, perhaps for a lot of time.

A majority of people who have posted on what they want in a classic shard and the top 2 are:

#1 No trammel ruleset's anywhere!!
#2 No post AOS Weapon, Armor, Combat, coding.

I agree very loudly and very completely with #2.

If PKers can't be restrained with a penalty system, then like 10 years ago, there will have to be a Tram ruleset Shard.

Once the unrestrained PKers have made the Classic Shard a fel ghost town. EA could just change it to a Tram ruleset and draw a population of players sick & tired of AoS to make a profit from the Shard. We all seem to want AoS to go away.

 

[frenchtoast]

My suggestion for this whole project is to stop asking people who have never played a classic server.

The people who play uo now are too used to the lame system that's in place right now. UO nowadays is way too much like WoW. If I want a game like that, I'm gonna pay for the better graphics rather than a 2D game.

Classic uo servers were one of a kind. You can not, and will never find any other game like them. I've spent the past 5 years trying to find a game that resembles Classic UO in the least bit and have not been successful.

It's astonishing how people don't realize how much better classic uo servers were. i bet if you looked at server populations around pre-pub 16, they are probably 5x higher then what the server populations are now. Why would that be? Because everyone I used to play UO with quit after AoS came out.

Either way, this classic server needs to be skill based and not item based, which in the end, defeats the purpose of letting people have a "safe haven" for their items.

Just my thoughts. I would most definitely pay per month to play a classic server that resembles pre pub 16 WITH NO TRAMMEL

 

[Kain_LoD]

As mentioned before... I know many people who said they were extremely interested in playing if this shard is developed. After t2a was an enjoyable time, yet the people I talk to feel pre-aos had the most balance in regards to how characters matched up against each other. So I agree with the person above me and also would pay for a pre-pub 16 with no trammel.

Certain non-play-factor things, which are kind of like amenities, do not really sway my interest. I do not mind custom housing with lock-downs, nor do I mind blessed clothes, (sandals, hats, etc). I don't care about ethereals, nor do I really use them because the server I play on people use bola's..but still. Nothing wrong with neon-ish hair dye as that was in UO for a fair amount of time. What's the harm with people having these items? You sweat the small stuff too much, and the big thing may never come to be.

Classic doesn't need to be a "100%" accurate remake of the old game, just reimplement the game mechanics from that time period, and those other amenities are all really non-factors...just little perks that some might enjoy.

 

[Kain_LoD]

I was wondering why are some people opposed to factions? I loved factions. On Chesapeake the action was pretty heavy from what I remember. Just looking for some opinions from the other side of the coin...

 

[Kaleb]

That there certainly does. Penalties that penalize in a serious way. There needs to be nasty risks to go with the big rewards PKers and Thieves easily take.

Most of the people who will play the shard are fully aware of the risks involved and are not bothered by it, again the majority does not want trammel like rules anywhere, Never for any reason besides cheating Should a character be locked up, He will be red freely attackable by anyone, with what i posted prior the penalties fit the crimes.

There is, griefing others in a way that follows game rules..

Depends where you play I suppose, I get griefed more in tram dungeons than I do at the Yew gate Fel. on pacific.

Like PKers were making their sheep obsolete back pre-UO:Ren?

I disagree, there were a few people on pacific who were too scared to go outside city limits and most of them are more apt to play single player games but a lot like me were anti PK, The t2a Ruleset is a system designed for people to have to work together to reach their goal.

Definitely a Jail System or a penalty that must be burned off while in game. The penalty monitors for unattended macroing. You ruin a lot of our playtime or steal something that takes a lot of work for one of us to get, you risk your fun being ruined, perhaps for a lot of time.

No! On a classic server based with the T2A ruleset(all fel no trammel rules) most players that have an IQ over 20 would be fully aware of of the shards rules and accept what can happen if they cannot defend themselves to the other players capabilities.

For no reason should a person who pays the same as I do for my account every month not be able to play his/her playstyle or character for any other reason than cheating keep in mind I am probably more anti PK than you except I accept their playstyle as a viable entity to ultima online. Burning counts today is not macroing, you do not have to do any action so long as you are in a high traffic area, Reds can simply be a ghost at say the yew gate and burn counts, with what was proposed by me a long time ago in classic 1 is that counts cannot burn time while dead, in a fel only shard there would not be a lot of places one could burn counts easy, even houses are not a 100% safe, Unpopulated areas would auto log you, Givin that UO's 3rd party detection is working.

All of what I posted for penalties is all that is needed to make it hard to play a PK , Remember alone those penalties did not work, But all together they would have I have seen it at places I cannot name. Also keep in mind 99% of the player base of the "Classic shard" is fully aware of the ruleset just as they are aware of sieges fel ruleset.

I agree very loudly and very completely with #2.

If PKers can't be restrained with a penalty system, then like 10 years ago, there will have to be a Tram ruleset Shard.

Once the unrestrained PKers have made the Classic Shard a fel ghost town. EA could just change it to a Tram ruleset and draw a population of players sick & tired of AoS to make a profit from the Shard. We all seem to want AoS to go away.

I am also not against a Trammel version and feel one also needs to be made, Just that for once something to come to our playstyle (Feluccian) first, You all had a decade. There is no way to prove the t2a server would become a ghost town, Todays UO has way fewer people in it then what I remember prior to UO:Ren. where at places I cannot name populations thrive with the t2a systems (non trammel).

I was wondering why are some people opposed to factions? I loved factions. On Chesapeake the action was pretty heavy from what I remember. Just looking for some opinions from the other side of the coin...

I loved old school factions, with chaos/order made things interesting.

 

[Evlar]

Factions for PvP "purpose" is fine. It gives people a reason to choose a side and fight for it.

Factions for "items" - utter waste of time. Easily exploited and soon becomes unbalanced and just a "cheap" way for players to get uber gear.

I've always been in favour of PvP having a purpose. A reason to participate. That's why most of my PvP time was spent involved in guild wars, or role-play PvP. I have taken part in factions with some other genuinely good factions players, working the "capture the flag" sigils side of things. I've seen some superb teamwork going on there.

Sitting at moongates, groups versus one ganking, random PK'ing of non-PvP players... I've never really seen any point to.

I've often had detailed ideas, about how to channel PvP into something highly interactive and engaging to participate in, all within a single facet. Unfortunately, most of those ideas would involve such great changes to game mechanics, we'll never likely see happen in UO.

 

[Evlar]

One of the biggest attractions for a return to "classic" UO gameplay, is the important reliance on other players.

Modern UO feels too much like there's no real need to interact with others, once you understand how the game works. That pretty much negates the point of playing an MMO for me personally.

It's also the reason why I don't believe you can refer to "current" UO as an MMORPG really. When you're able to do everything and be everything, what role is it one assumes then? When players are increasingly self-sufficient, what need or desire do they have to interact more fully with other players?

 

[o2bavr6]

As much as I am in favor of a Classic Shard, I wonder if it would really work.

Back then the game was new to everyone in all aspects. Today we all no the game in and out. Because of that it loses it's freshness.

It was fun working skills regardless of which ones. but today we have all worked every skill, so as i said it wont be fresh anymore.

The one thing I do remember was when we finally got to 7 x GM. We were all saying "what now?"

Maybe one of the answers is to increase the skill cap to 120 in each but without the use of Power Scrolls. But even that just delays the inevitable of the "what now?".

This is where in my mind balanced bug and hack free PvP shines. This is where inevitably everything should lead to. You may not want to participate in it, but you will even if it's in the form of a crafter who makes the items for PvPers. Ya know... Community.

I was thinking about this last night, do they implement the game with the need for Meditation? or Eval for Magery and SS for Necro? Do they even include Necro?

On a side note: someone mentioned Macroing not being allowed. Well in early UO macroing was allowed. I do believe scripting should not be allowed but I see no reason that people shouldn't be allowed to macro a skill or macro mine even while AFK. After all everyone would have the ability to do so.

Also macroing was a way to balance against power gamers. some people aren't 16 who can play 24x7. They have to work for a living so allowing them to macro while at work balances things out.

 

[Tanivar]

No! On a classic server based with the T2A ruleset(all fel no trammel rules) most players that have an IQ over 20 would be fully aware of of the shards rules and accept what can happen if they cannot defend themselves to the other players capabilities.

Players with a Crafter Template can't win against a Template with all 700 points put to combat skills. With even less chance vs. a gank squad of 700 points to combat characters.

Also keep in mind 99% of the player base of the "Classic shard" is fully aware of the ruleset just as they are aware of sieges fel ruleset.

So its 99% PvPers & PKers, 1% sheep for the PKers to get their jollies with. How long will that 1% consider running around in black & white after getting PKed over & over fun? How long will PKers stay with so few to gank?

"Dang! Another ghost! Ghost! Ghost! Ghost! EA needs to force more players to play this Classic Shard! This dumb game is no fun like this! I can't have any fun since thiers no one to gank! I'm gonna quit this stupid game like I did 10 years ago! No one's fun to ruin! < whine, pout, moan, etc, etc>

I am also not against a Trammel version and feel one also needs to be made, Just that for once something to come to our playstyle (Feluccian) first, You all had a decade.

You had the same decade. Fel facets tainted with AoS just like we had Tram facets tainted with AoS.

Fel Facets are the ghost towns they are because going to fel gets you ganked. Not even all the bait features EA has added to fel to try and draw victims to fel for the PKers to get their jollies on have worked because we know the result of going to fel. OOOoooOOOooo.

There is no way to prove the t2a server would become a ghost town,

Take a look at every shards fel facet where PKers roam. Any more evidence needed?

 

[frenchtoast]

One of the biggest attractions for a return to "classic" UO gameplay, is the important reliance on other players.

Modern UO feels too much like there's no real need to interact with others, once you understand how the game works. That pretty much negates the point of playing an MMO for me personally.

It's also the reason why I don't believe you can refer to "current" UO as an MMORPG really. When you're able to do everything and be everything, what role is it one assumes then? When players are increasingly self-sufficient, what need or desire do they have to interact more fully with other players?

That's probably one of the best points I've seen so far in this thread. And I'm going to steal my buddies line when I say that, current UO, as well as world of warcraft and games of that nature, are just big single player games that people play together.

On old school UO, if you were mining and farming ingots and things of that nature, you run the risk of being PKed. To counteract that, you have buddies help you out while you mined or what not. That's where interaction comes into play.

Here's a list of things I would love to see on the classic server, and would pay per month to play:

1. No trammel
2. Pre-AoS Weapons (Vanqs, powers, force, Etc)
3. Factions, Chaos/Order, PKing.
just to name a few.

In my opinion, the people who want a pre-aos classic server are the people who PvP. If you don't like pvp, and dont like the classic server idea, then simply dont play it.

The beauty of classic UO is the fact that items are essentially worthless. It's based on skill and how you play your character rather then what items you have equiped. If you die, you get looted and lose a few things, but those things can easily be replaced.

A good example of what a good classic server would be is the free UOGamers server. People PvE on that server, tons of pvp, and I think the server population on that server is more than any current UO server. Don't hold me to that, but I believe that is the case.

The biggest problem about UOGamers is that it isn't staffed properly and not enough time is put into making it a better server therefore the population is dying down. A classic server like uogamers that is being ran by EA would certinaly produce a pretty good size server population therefore people will play.

 

[frenchtoast]

Players with a Crafter Template can't win against a Template with all 700 points put to combat skills. With even less chance vs. a gank squad of 700 points to combat characters.




So its 99% PvPers & PKers, 1% sheep for the PKers to get their jollies with. How long will that 1% consider running around in black & white after getting PKed over & over fun? How long will PKers stay with so few to gank?

"Dang! Another ghost! Ghost! Ghost! Ghost! EA needs to force more players to play this Classic Shard! This dumb game is no fun like this! I can't have any fun since thiers no one to gank! I'm gonna quit this stupid game like I did 10 years ago! No one's fun to ruin! < whine, pout, moan, etc, etc>





You had the same decade. Fel facets tainted with AoS just like we had Tram facets tainted with AoS.

Fel Facets are the ghost towns they are because going to fel gets you ganked. Not even all the bait features EA has added to fel to try and draw victims to fel for the PKers to get their jollies on have worked because we know the result of going to fel. OOOoooOOOooo.



Take a look at every shards fel facet where PKers roam. Any more evidence needed?

We get it, you've never played a classic server nor want one to be implemented. Thats fine, just dont play it. It's that simple.

There are towns and guards for a reason. If you are on a crafting character, stay in town, you wont get ganked. In all honesty, if people join and pvp, groups will be too busy fighting eachother rather than killing naked newbs running through the forest.

Basic thing is, if you cannot figure out how to survive, you dont need to be playing UO.

I understand, you play UO the way it is now and probably enjoy it, And that's perfectly fine. But you don't understand how classic servers were.

Fel was full of people, you would find twice maybe three times as many people in fel then you would in tram. That problem isn't the case right now because people don't enjoy pvping in post-aos UO. Therefore Fel is probably nearly empty.

Good example would come from my own experience with world of warcraft. Basically, I love to pvp. That's all I ever did on UO. When i started playing wow, I hated the pvp on the game and still do, therefore I'd rather PvE and do the raids. To me, it's that same concept for Modern UO. People want to play it, but the pvp is so bad all they want to do is PvE and stay in trammel.

If the pvp system from pre-aos was implemented, you would see A LOT more people in fel.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

There are towns and guards for a reason. If you are on a crafting character, stay in town, you wont get ganked. In all honesty, if people join and pvp, groups will be too busy fighting eachother rather than killing naked newbs running through the forest.

If you honestly believe that you are sorely mistaken. PvPers may be fighting in groups having fun, but the PK's will always seek out the easy prey...Sadly there will be more PK's than there are PvPers on a classic shard.

Fel was full of people, you would find twice maybe three times as many people in fel then you would in tram. That problem isn't the case right now because people don't enjoy pvping in post-aos UO. Therefore Fel is probably nearly empty.

If the pvp system from pre-aos was implemented, you would see A LOT more people in fel.

Huh? What world were you living in where Fel was full of people? Once Trammel was introduced in Publish 5 Fel became a barren wasteland with very few people. Even the introduction of extra resources, Factions and Power Scrolls couldn't entice people to Fel. If Fel was as popular as you say then there never would have been the need to introduce those enticements.

Face it, the basically penalty free PKing is what forced trammel and ultimately AoS on us. If the PK's aren't willing to accept some form of different punishment then the classic shard will be doomed to failure. Stat Loss didn't work. And while I like Archies suggestions for Murderer guilds etc... I still think public humiliation upon death for the duration of their murder counts to decay until 4 counts would be the best solution. It would be no different than back in the day when they would UM counts off to rezz without stat loss but instead of being able to macro away in their house, they would be forced to be in a place where everyone could see them and make fun of them. Maybe even place barrels of rotten vegetables to throw at them.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

I was wondering why are some people opposed to factions? I loved factions. On Chesapeake the action was pretty heavy from what I remember. Just looking for some opinions from the other side of the coin...

I was never opposed to factions, that being the two factions we already had that worked just fine, Order and Chaos. The other stuff they came out with is a giant mess that overly complicated things and they still haven't straightened it out.

Another fine example of the developers trying to fix something that wasn't broken.

Face it, the basically penalty free PKing is what forced trammel and ultimately AoS on us. If the PK's aren't willing to accept some form of different punishment then the classic shard will be doomed to failure. Stat Loss didn't work. And while I like Archies suggestions for Murderer guilds etc... I still think public humiliation upon death for the duration of their murder counts to decay until 4 counts would be the best solution. It would be no different than back in the day when they would UM counts off to rezz without stat loss but instead of being able to macro away in their house, they would be forced to be in a place where everyone could see them and make fun of them. Maybe even place barrels of rotten vegetables to throw at them.

I agree that it forced trammel on us but come on AoS really doesn't have an alibi, it's ugly. Stat loss failed because it was avoidable by burning off counts as a ghost and then rezzing, if it had occured on death you would have seen the pk ranks thinned out much more.

I also agree that there can be no punishment that involves a paying customer losing control or playability of their character, it just doesn't work when you are paying for a service.

I think also people need to realize most of those who come back to a classic shard won't be sheep, in fact I think there will be a lot of dissapointment among the old wolves looking for easy pickings when all they find are hardened MMO veterans who are more than capable of defending themselves.

There may be a short term influx of newbies who never experienced UO in it's wild wild west days, but you can count your bottom dollar on those players quickly retreating back to candy land after a few hours on a classic shard, in fact there should be a gump that pops up when people log into classic that reads.

"Abandon every hope ye who enter here" Mostly in a joking manner though

 

[Evlar]

I think also people need to realize most of those who come back to a classic shard won't be sheep, in fact I think there will be a lot of disappointment among the old wolves looking for easy pickings when all they find are hardened MMO veterans who are more than capable of defending themselves.

I believe a lot of people miss this point entirely. Certainly and especially, those against the "classic" concept.

About a fifth of my game time was spent on PvP. Would that stop me playing a "classic" shard? Not in the slightest. Even a crafter hybrid template I spent most time using, could defend themselves more than capably against the "prey on the weak and alone" type PK'ers.

Often, those type of players weren't very good PvP'ers. They couldn't stand toe-to-toe with the more able and skilled PvP'ers, so they often looked for the easy targets. Well, given that most of those likely to play a "classic" shard will know what to expect, there simply won't be many unsuspecting "victims" for the "wolves" to prey upon.

 

[o2bavr6]

Stat loss failed because it was avoidable by burning off counts as a ghost and then rezzing, if it had occured on death you would have seen the pk ranks thinned out much more.

I'm not sure stat loss did fail. If a char had to burn off murder counts before ressing it meant he wasn't out pking people. ANd dont forget back then it took months to work resist back up to GM. heck in the beginning it took almost a year to GM resist, let alone GMing magery again and getting the regs needed.

On chessy before AoS there were Pk's but they were the minority by like 200 to 1.

Personally I think third party programs were the fall of PvP more than the "failure of stat loss" or "rampant PKs". ones like UOExtreme or even UOAssist before it was legal. the people who didn't use it couldn't last target spells or arm or disarm themselves while people using the programs could.

 

[Tanivar]

We get it, you've never played a classic server nor want one to be implemented. Thats fine, just dont play it. It's that simple.

I've played fel back in 2000 & 2001.

Fel back then was a 'Classic Shard' with a Trammel attached.

Going to fel you encountered some Pvpers who wouldn't bother Miners and Loggers. Pvpers like a challenge.

PKers, in armor, slaughterd unarmored Miners & Loggers, and danced over the corpses babbled how hot, tough, & studdly they were.

PKers don't play for the challenge of PvP, they just get there jollies killing easy targets.

In all honesty, if people join and pvp, groups will be too busy fighting eachother rather than killing naked newbs running through the forest.

<laugh> And who are you trying to convince with this babble? rolleyes:

PvPers may group & fight other groups.

PKers only group when they feel that Miner or Logger in normal clothing might be good enough to kick their rump if they don't bring help. Don't want to risk losing after all.

Basic thing is, if you cannot figure out how to survive, you dont need to be playing UO.

Survivng in UO isn't all that difficult. You just don't take on monsters or players you have no chance against. Two or more PKers in a group tend to fall into that no chance catagory. They can inflict two or more times the damage a lone character can, and have two or more times the hit points the lone character does.

I understand, you play UO the way it is now and probably enjoy it,

Actually I despise the item-based game UO has become and come & go when I'm to disgusted with the super monsters you have to have super-items to hunt.

With the addition of Imbueing so I can craft the items to hunt ML & SA with, I'm less disgusted, but would still rather see an AoS-free UO return.

But you don't understand how classic servers were.

Sure I do. I've played UO since just after UO:Ren was released. Fel was a 'Classic Shard' back then. Just minus the sheep. The sheep had either left pre- UO:Ren, or went to Tram to escape the PKers.

Fel was full of people, you would find twice maybe three times as many people in fel then you would in tram.

I've stopped taking you seriously right here. That is the biggest load of fertilizer I've seen in these forums. rolleyes:

That problem isn't the case right now because people don't enjoy pvping in post-aos UO. Therefore Fel is probably nearly empty. (underline my addition)

"Is probably empty" ? So your not currently playing and haven't for a lot of years I take it.

Pvpers still Pvp, even with items being neccesary to compete. Imbuers can now make items that let Pvpers compete aginst those who have the pre-SA items.

The reason fel is so empty, is because there are few PKers, because there are few sheep to slaughter.

PvPers are no fun for the Pkers because the Pvpers whomp them into the ground unless it's several PKers vs one PvPer.

People want to play it, but the pvp is so bad all they want to do is PvE and stay in trammel.

PvP has improved because any player with cheap access to an Imbuer can have items that will allow them to compete vs. the Uber-gear people.

People tend to stay in Tram because of the Ganker PKers. Been that way since the gankfest that preceded UO:Ren, that had UO bleeding paying customers to other games where the players could have fun instead of being ganked.

If the pvp system from pre-aos was implemented, you would see A LOT more people in fel.

Doubtful you'd see more for very long. The PvPers would probably stay since uber-items would be gone, but the PKers would return, find their are no sheep, and leave agian.

 

[o2bavr6]

PKers, in armor, slaughterd unarmored Miners & Loggers, and danced over the corpses babbled how hot, tough, & studdly they were.

PKers don't play for the challenge of PvP, they just get there jollies killing easy targets.

Not sure I agree 100% with you either on this.

You see "back in the day" you could be a miner and smith and still have combat skills that would be able to go head to head with any pker. The problem was that these "sheep" as you call them didn't know or were to scared to try to fight.

There was hundreds of times my miner would kill this lone pker who would prey on us "sheep".

No different than when in a dungeon with 8 blues and 2 reds showed up and everyone would recall out. if the blues all just stayed and fought the reds would have been toast.

 

[Evlar]

Not sure I agree 100% with you either on this.

You see "back in the day" you could be a miner and smith and still have combat skills that would be able to go head to head with any pker. The problem was that these "sheep" as you call them didn't know or were to scared to try to fight.

There was hundreds of times my miner would kill this lone pker who would prey on us "sheep".

No different than when in a dungeon with 8 blues and 2 reds showed up and everyone would recall out. if the blues all just stayed and fought the reds would have been toast.

This exactly.

I was one of those "sheep" when I first started playing. There was a lot of hype surrounding red PK's as I recollect.

The first day I stood my ground and won. It was the best thing I ever did. I always stood my ground after that and never ran away. More often than not, especially with my miner/smith/swordman, I would actually win encounters with lone PK's.

If I encountered more than one PK, then I would usually try to talk my way through. If that failed, then it was a case of hit & run. Strategy and a little luck and I would come out on top of some of those encounters too. If I lost, ahh well... never mind. I just got rezzed, went home and made another suit.

Problem is, some simply didn't (and still don't) like PvP elements of the game, or anything without their consent. I still maintain that on the shards I played, there wasn't rampant PK'ing. Yes it went on, but clearly not to the extent that some shards saw.

*shrugs*

If only they had given some of the other options a go, before they dropped Trammel on our world.

 

[Tanivar]

Not sure I agree 100% with you either on this.

You see "back in the day" you could be a miner and smith and still have combat skills that would be able to go head to head with any pker. The problem was that these "sheep" as you call them didn't know or were to scared to try to fight.

There was hundreds of times my miner would kill this lone pker who would prey on us "sheep".

No different than when in a dungeon with 8 blues and 2 reds showed up and everyone would recall out. if the blues all just stayed and fought the reds would have been toast.

I mainly only succeeded in killing the Pker when my Forager was pretending to be a Miner and suckered in the PKer. That character was a full combat template.

My Craftsmen did carry boobytrapped chests that would kill their killer. Found out ghosts can talk to other ghosts doing that.

I had built two serious crafters, very little magery skill for combat. it was just enough so they could gate their packers around back in the pre-bonding days. If your curious, the names are Landreu & Valana on Chessie, and both will show skill info in MYUO. Back then, Landreu mined & Valana did the logging. Mining is currently on my Thunter.

Pre-AoS, fighting PKers and winning was doable with the other three characters.

The eight blues may just have not been interested in PvP. It's certainly not a playstyle I'm into at all. Problem is, in fel, there are really just two choices. Play the PKers playstyle which you don't like, or leave. Which the 8 blues did. <shrug>

The people not into Pvp are not going to play a PKfest Classic Shard. PKers need to accept they will never have the pre-Tram gankfest world they had before UO:Ren. Until that sinks in and there are some effective restraints on PKing installed, the Classic Shard would just be another fel ghost town.

 

[Kain_LoD]

Factions for PvP "purpose" is fine. It gives people a reason to choose a side and fight for it.

Factions for "items" - utter waste of time. Easily exploited and soon becomes unbalanced and just a "cheap" way for players to get uber gear.

I see some of your points. Around the time I played... it took a long time for someone to get a really strong runic hammer..and the products they made were expensive. So while they did hurt when you ran into one, it wasn't a huge deal...people paid big dollars for them, so I was fine with it. For shards as old as you all still play on, I can see they might be more "common" now. Even on the hybrid shard they are still hard items to come by. On a new shard I think it would take a really long time to become common easy to get items.

 

[o2bavr6]

The eight blues may just have not been interested in PvP. It's certainly not a playstyle I'm into at all. Problem is, in fel, there are really just two choices. Play the PKers playstyle which you don't like, or leave. Which the 8 blues did. <shrug>

The people not into Pvp are not going to play a PKfest Classic Shard. PKers need to accept they will never have the pre-Tram gankfest world they had before UO:Ren. Until that sinks in and there are some effective restraints on PKing installed, the Classic Shard would just be another fel ghost town.

Yes the 8 blues may not have been into PvP but as I mentioned before after a while that non-pvper will have maxed out all his skills and killed every monster countelss times at which point they will get bored and leave. so that leaves PvP.

Also if those 8 non-PvPers would have stood their ground and thrashed the PKers, there is more of a chance that the PKers would not be back. Basically if you get your hand smacked enough times you will stop doing wrong.

 

[Archie]

Some people want it easy on a classic shard.

Not acceptable.

The latest, greatest classic shard must have meaningful player justice, or it will fail.

No recalling or gating as an aggressor.

A character class (detective) that can track down and somehow DISRUPT the play style of criminals. (Put them out of commission for a while.)

A penalty for choosing the path of murderer, like the thieves' guild puts penalties on thief characters.

There are ways to add game mechanics that will increase the odds that the general population can police their world without overlaying restrictive mechanics like those that brought about Trammel.

Trammel is fine for people who want to play a more solo style, or relaxed style, or hopefully a more cordial style, but a true virtual world needs freedom and CONSEQUENCES! It needs law and order, and the ability to be an outlaw. But the old ways didn't work well enough for the virtual community and thus old UO was far too anarchistic outside of town to be an acceptable alternative to today's gaming opportunities.

It can be fixed. It's not that hard. But Rule 1 should be, IMO, that it is AT LEAST as dangerous and potentially disruptive of one's play style to play a criminal character as it is just minding your own business and doing other players no harm. Period, end of story.

 

[Kain_LoD]

I think also people need to realize most of those who come back to a classic shard won't be sheep, in fact I think there will be a lot of dissapointment among the old wolves looking for easy pickings when all they find are hardened MMO veterans who are more than capable of defending themselves.

There may be a short term influx of newbies who never experienced UO in it's wild wild west days, but you can count your bottom dollar on those players quickly retreating back to candy land after a few hours on a classic shard, in fact there should be a gump that pops up when people log into classic that reads.

"Abandon every hope ye who enter here" Mostly in a joking manner though

I think this is a great point. I can tell you now, the average UO players is leagues better now then they were in the times of old. On the hybrid server a pk rampage really does not last all that long before the masses just walk outside and smoke them. I can tell you that most of the pvpers only use their reds as a last option because the odds are heavily against them.

People in general are just better then they used to be. And reds will not steam-roll people like they used to. It's just evolution of people. Things that were once amazing are now average.