105-110 Tram 115-120 Fel

[Coragin]

rofl they deserve it, but thats getting off topic lol

Yes it is, but I must make this observation, since this actually turned into a discussion instead of people just shouting no or yes, it has been informative. Knock on wood lets hope it lasts lol. I like a good civilized discussion, point and counter-point. Can get a lot more info of what everyone is thinking when your not looking at the direct insult or whatever the person said to you.

Much much better, I am liking this discussion without the insults and bashing posts.

 

[Eyes of Origin]

shhhhhhhh lol you'll jinx it.

I remember when I first started playing UO, I joined the Trammiest guild there was on Origin, Avatars of Virtue, AV. I miss those days and I miss that guild.
Then it was about going to Fel and seeing how many spawns we could do before we got busted by the then raiding guild of FL.

I remember my first spawn. A guildie took me to The Bog, of all places. It was just him and I and he warned me that FL might show up, but they didnt and it was a pretty good feeling when those scrolls dropped in my pack.

FL had Pacific and Origin on lockdown back then. You literally had to spawn in the middle of the night and pray you didnt get busted. Harrowers were even worse. We would get up at 3am Pac time to do a Harrower and hope we had enough ppl get on to get it done and most of the time we got busted.
Back then getting a good 120 was such an awesome feeling. It meant more then going to buy them, so I can see where people are coming from.

It was frustrating to lose a spawn to a guild like FL, but we would go back and fight them anyway, knowing we would die... then we got smart and started using tactics like I posted about, minus killing them in the starroom. There were normally too many for us to do that.

Trying to get those scrolls back are some of the best memories I have to date in UO.

I am not saying you have to go in the middle of the night to spawn, but there are always ways to get around being raided and if anything, take getting raided as a learning exp. You learn what to do and how to beat them. Not all the time, but sometimes.

Taking scrolls out of Fel ruins that feeling you get when you worked so hard for something and succeeded, even if they are just 105's and 110's.

 

[Coragin]

Oh I hear ya there, itsstill rush especially when I am soloing a spawn lol. But hearing people yell in Vent, RAIDERS! Or right when you kill the champ the people that got scrolls were told to just run lol. Like I said I would still do Fel spawns for that reason, you dont get a rush like that doing tram spawns, mostly click hit move, dead champ...

And I think any people who already do champs would feel the same way even if 105 and 110 drop in Tram. I cant see Bal saying oh yea lets go do Tram spawns, he would be screamin in vent lol.

But I still dont see this being a terrible thing, expecially if they took 110 completely out of Fel, thus leaving 115 and 120 all the time. To me it would make going to do Fel spawns more rewarding in that aspect and the small onces being in Tram would help the soloers, smaller guilds and people who dont like to pvp or cant.

The most I see this doing is driving down the 120 market a tad, which would only hurt Fellers and pvpers and only in the pocketbook, no where else. So not being able to charge 10 mill for a 120 swords, 15 mill for 120 arch and 20 mill for 120 mage. Instead I see them dropping to 6-8 for 120 arch 4-6 for 120 swords 10-15 for 120 mage. Not a huge plunge, but a little more of fair pricing I can say that.

 

[Eyes of Origin]

Oh I hear ya there, itsstill rush especially when I am soloing a spawn lol. But hearing people yell in Vent, RAIDERS! Or right when you kill the champ the people that got scrolls were told to just run lol. Like I said I would still do Fel spawns for that reason, you dont get a rush like that doing tram spawns, mostly click hit move, dead champ...

And I think any people who already do champs would feel the same way even if 105 and 110 drop in Tram. I cant see Bal saying oh yea lets go do Tram spawns, he would be screamin in vent lol.

But I still dont see this being a terrible thing, expecially if they took 110 completely out of Fel, thus leaving 115 and 120 all the time. To me it would make going to do Fel spawns more rewarding in that aspect and the small onces being in Tram would help the soloers, smaller guilds and people who dont like to pvp or cant.

The most I see this doing is driving down the 120 market a tad, which would only hurt Fellers and pvpers and only in the pocketbook, no where else. So not being able to charge 10 mill for a 120 swords, 15 mill for 120 arch and 20 mill for 120 mage. Instead I see them dropping to 6-8 for 120 arch 4-6 for 120 swords 10-15 for 120 mage. Not a huge plunge, but a little more of fair pricing I can say that.

The pricing fluxuates already. A year ago you could get a 120 magery for 11mil on most shards. Archery for 6 and Swords you were lucky to sell for 3-4 mil.
It goes up and down depending on what is popluar atm. Once the Devs nerf Archery or Magery again the prices could go down.
Its like we say in Colorado, "You dont like the weather? Wait 5mins" Its constantly changing and scrolls are no different.

You know, most raiding guilds dont even sell their scrolls? The scrolls get eaten when they get them or given to secondary chars to eat. The only ones it would hurt are the ppl who spawn constantly just to sell the scrolls. Fel and Tram guilds alike.

 

[XavierGL]

Well if you all think that scrolls dropping in tram would make you all happy then I would have no problem with that. However I would split the diffrences and get rid of the scroll binders completely. This way you have your scrolls in tram the 105's and the 110's BUT if you want the higher end scrolls then your certainly going to have to either work for em or buy em. This would still keep the spawans in fel active as they are a good source of PvP but also allows the trammies to develop their chars.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Well if you all think that scrolls dropping in tram would make you all happy then I would have no problem with that. However I would split the diffrences and get rid of the scroll binders completely. This way you have your scrolls in tram the 105's and the 110's BUT if you want the higher end scrolls then your certainly going to have to either work for em or buy em. This would still keep the spawans in fel active as they are a good source of PvP but also allows the trammies to develop their chars.

None of this is acceptable to me. I see no reason why one particular play style should have a monopoly on skill advancement.

I'm just one player, but that's my vote, and my opinion.

 

[XavierGL]

None of this is acceptable to me. I see no reason why one particular play style should have a monopoly on skill advancement.

I'm just one player, but that's my vote, and my opinion.

I totaly agree with you here. I personally think it would hurt more than help but was just trying to make another alternitive for arguments sake

 

[KalVasTENKI]

Powerscrolls belong in Fel, period, end of story.

Secondly, if you want to buy a 120 Magery off a vendor because you dont ever go to Fel and try to get one yourself, then damn skippy you should be paying 22mil for it or whatever the current price is.

The prices are pretty much the same across the shards. 120 Magery is selling for roughly 20mil, where as a year ago they were selling for 11mil. It fluctuates, but you pay the price or you go spawn yourself.

You always pay more for things you don't get yourself and someone else has to take the risk to get.

Agreed. I think they should just up the replica drop a higher percentage , that's the only thing that would encourage more spawn / spawn fights.

 

[Trebr Drab]

None of this is acceptable to me. I see no reason why one particular play style should have a monopoly on skill advancement.

I'm just one player, but that's my vote, and my opinion.

I totaly agree with you here. I personally think it would hurt more than help but was just trying to make another alternitive for arguments sake

Gotcha. Really, I only quoted you because that post was like a wrap up of where this conversation was going at that point.

 

[HD2300]

Agreed. I think they should just up the replica drop a higher percentage , that's the only thing that would encourage more spawn / spawn fights.

It should either be 6 PS drop in Tram too, or replicas only drop in Tram and not in Fel. That way it is balanced. Fel gets the PS that PvMers want, and Trams get the replicas that PvPers want.

 

[Smokin]

And because these people would prefer to see an item pop into their pack we are supposed change the game for them and deprive PvPrs of the only items they have to fight over in game? Very thin argument.


So you’re saying here that Tram players are not very good at doing spawns and refuse to learn game mechanics so they can improve? So why should we feel the need to pander to them? This is a game and you have to play it to win, easy mode is available, they can sit in tram, farm and generate enough gold to buy scrolls. If they want the pleasure of seeing the scrolls drop in their pack, as you have inferred in your point above, then they will need to step out of their comfort zone.


That’s fine with me, as I mentioned earlier on in the thread I’ve not got a problem with the Tram ruleset spawns dropping 105s and 110s.

I am sorry but yes you are supposed to change the game at times to make it enjoyable for all. It also is only for the 6 minor scrolls which you agreed with. So you even feel its not a big deal. Trust me I am not into asking for Fel players to lose everything if that was the case no way would I support it.

As for me saying Tram players are no good at doing spawns its not quite what I meant, I more meant doing the PVP aspect of Fel spawns. Also sometimes you have to pander (as you call it) to people so they can continue to enjoy something. Once again generally Tram players are goal orientated and buying things cheapens that goal.

 

[popps]

You can attack the same at either.

But at higher skill it takes less to kill them and so, in the same given time, a player can get more gold/loot.........

Besides, is it that bad to let players advance their skills to 105, 110 skill ?

Honestly, I do not see why having them spawn in Trammel would be such a problem at all given that before scrolls of binding they were quite often discarded and neglected by more experienced players.

Experienced players do not care about 105s and 110s ?

Fine, then give these scrolls to Trammel players and so new players who can put them to good use.......

 

[popps]

And because these people would prefer to see an item pop into their pack we are supposed change the game for them and deprive PvPrs of the only items they have to fight over in game? Very thin argument.

I entirely disagree,

Number 1, the idea only suggests for 105s and 110s to spawn in Trammel.
The 115s and 120s would still exclusively spawn in Felucca.

Given the ridicolous amounts of 105s and 110s that would be needed, of the SAME one scrolls, mind you, to make 120s, I don't think they could ever realistically be used to get a 120. Simply unpractical, IMHO.

Number 2, I do not see why, to PvP, there should be something to fight for.

If people enjoy and like the challenge of fighting another human player, the main reason is that, IMHO. The FUN and CHALLENGE of fighting someone other than AI.

Personally, I'd rather prefer to see games played also by young people where they have a combat system built up where people have to fight to defend principles, ideas rather than for the possession of things........

But perhaps it is only me and my naive opinions, who knows.............

 

[popps]

Just a question.....

What do you think would happen to the scroll market if even 105's and 110's were available at Ilish and Tok spawns???

The market would get flooded. People could stay in Tram chaining the hell out of the spawns and use scroll binders to get the 120's. Great for those who need the scrolls, but extremely bad for the market itself.

Shall we look at some math, perhaps ?

In order to make a 120, the 105s needed would be 960 (yes, you read it right, ninehundredsixty........8*12*10) while the 110s needed would be 120.

SAME scrolls, mind you..........

So, a player wanting, for example to make a 120 magery out of 105s would need 960 magery 105s or 120 magery 110s.........

ALL of them of the SAME magery type........

Quite a VERY long project, ain't it ?

Clearly, IMHO, 115s and 120s would still maintain their appeal providing the 120 wanted in a MUCH shorter time.

I do not honestly think that having 105s and 110s spawn in Trammel would be a problem at all.

 

[Miriandel]

I can see why some would agree to have 115 & 120's only drop in Fel...
I got 6 x 110 scrolls today from my daily champ, of course I would vote for Fel only having 115 and 120!

That would be completely out of balance, and illogical.

Powerscrolls are a PvM thing. We were PvPing quite fine (in fact, much better) before all those scrolls and artefacts existed.
Powerscrolls are definately not a Fel thing, it's not powerscrolls that can liven Fel up.
When we were fighting Order versus Chaos, I can't remember of any reward at all (the shield, what else? my memory isn't what it used to be...). We were fighting for the sake of fighting.

I regret to say it, but fighting for items is a World of Warcraft mindset, inherited from Evercrap.
Don't get me wrong, hunting for items is very cool, but it's not what made UO, having powerscrolls as only Fel incentive lacks creativity, IMHO.

 

[Eyes of Origin]

You dont think some people out there dont have the time or wouldnt take the time to do this Popps?? I bet you they would.. =/
Just like on some shards where the population is low, ppl already chain spawns all day and when they arent, another guild is.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Besides, is it that bad to let players advance their skills to 105, 110 skill ?

Fine, then give these scrolls to Trammel players and so new players who can put them to good use.......

Thats the point, they aren't putting them to good use. New players do not need scrolls because they aren't there yet, and even if they did need them, in terms of being at 100 and being aware that scrolls existed, they don't know what benefit it even gives.

Most current players would be hard pushed to tell you the difference between 100 and 105 and 110 in most skills. The profession forums are full of people who don't know what level to take their skills to. If they don't know why would new players?

If they don't know what they even do, why want it, and more importantly why spend time giving it to them.

I'm not so much against them having it, as against it changing for the sake of people whos only understanding of it is that 110 is higher than 105 etc. They should have it when they know what it does and have some legitimate reason for getting it imo. (That and the flooding of scrolls/replicas, you said yourself it would take over 900 spawns for one 120, it'd just kill both markets for the sake of someones 'I want in Tram but don't know what it even does' mentality.)

 

[XavierGL]

Make the scrolls drop in tram but get rid of the binders issue solved, then the trammies have nothing to cry over. But then again we all know they will just cry for something else to be given to them so their pixles don't have to die and they can earn things with no challenge what so ever. Wow you must find the game very hard and boring if you want to do everything with little regard for challenges.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Besides, is it that bad to let players advance their skills to 105, 110 skill ?

Fine, then give these scrolls to Trammel players and so new players who can put them to good use.......

Thats the point, they aren't putting them to good use. New players do not need scrolls because they aren't there yet, and even if they did need them, in terms of being at 100 and being aware that scrolls existed, they don't know what benefit it even gives.

Most current players would be hard pushed to tell you the difference between 100 and 105 and 110 in most skills. The profession forums are full of people who don't know what level to take their skills to. If they don't know why would new players?

If they don't know what they even do, why want it, and more importantly why spend time giving it to them.

I'm not so much against them having it, as against it changing for the sake of people whos only understanding of it is that 110 is higher than 105 etc. They should have it when they know what it does and have some legitimate reason for getting it imo. (That and the flooding of scrolls/replicas, you said yourself it would take over 900 spawns for one 120, it'd just kill both markets for the sake of someones 'I want in Tram but don't know what it even does' mentality.)

Who do you think you are, God?

 

[Smokin]

You dont think some people out there dont have the time or wouldnt take the time to do this Popps?? I bet you they would.. =/
Just like on some shards where the population is low, ppl already chain spawns all day and when they arent, another guild is.

You make it sound like a bad thing, that someone would want to take the time do this to gather 100 to 200 scrolls to do this. Hey if a person has that kind of gumption let them, if they don't then they still have the option of going to Fel. Which in my eyes it would be extremely faster to get the scroll they really wanted.

The only customers and people to kill a person would lose is the person that won't do champs in Fel anyways or the customer that won't buy the scroll for millions anyways.

I highly doubt you will see people doing them and selling the scrolls. In the time it took to make a single 120 they could have gotten about 100 from Fel spawns, if not more.

 

[Smokin]

Make the scrolls drop in tram but get rid of the binders issue solved, then the trammies have nothing to cry over. But then again we all know they will just cry for something else to be given to them so their pixles don't have to die and they can earn things with no challenge what so ever. Wow you must find the game very hard and boring if you want to do everything with little regard for challenges.

Sure get rid of binders as long as ALL current 120s turn into 105s, to say PVP is a highly challenging thing in this game is joke, with its ganking and high school mentality of your not in the clic so I'm gonna kill ya. It is an aspect of the game that not all enjoy or can do that is all.

Before they changed champs to the current status, you had all kinds of people doing them and getting along. Heck on my shard we had a random group of people showing up every morning to either do Oaks to get the skull to spawn Harry or we popped it. It didn't matter who went we all went for the fun of it, and at all spawns when it got raided we all stuck together and took them on. Again it was random people.

So what have we learned from this, because of the no boot part of the spawns it allowed for a group to control the spawns and that made people not want to bother with them. So the raiders lost out on the people they could attack and the people that won't do them lost out on getting the scrolls. Well its been what hmmm 7 years or more since they put the scrolls in, I think its ok to let the small scrolls drop in Tram in a small amount now.

It will effect very little.

 

[Mistura]

I entirely disagree,

Number 1, the idea only suggests for 105s and 110s to spawn in Trammel.
The 115s and 120s would still exclusively spawn in Felucca.

Given the ridicolous amounts of 105s and 110s that would be needed, of the SAME one scrolls, mind you, to make 120s, I don't think they could ever realistically be used to get a 120. Simply unpractical, IMHO.

Mate, I know you enjoy rambling on for the sake of it, but you really need to at least read the posts in a thread before you start typing. At least read the post that you quote before commenting on it lol

If you had done this you would have seen that I have no problems with 105s and 110s in Tram ruleset…

Number 2, I do not see why, to PvP, there should be something to fight for.

If people enjoy and like the challenge of fighting another human player, the main reason is that, IMHO. The FUN and CHALLENGE of fighting someone other than AI

Yes, people PvP just for the fun and thrill every day however raiding and defending spawns offers an alternative way to PvP and the value of PS means there is something tangible to fight for giving the overall battle more meaning.

 

[Smokin]

I thought of a thing that also might help bring people to Fel for the champs. I know people will say something against this but what if you couldn't report murders in champ zones and places like the Star Room. I bet there are some people that do not want to do them for the chance of become red. Its possible who knows. I imagine it wouldn't be to hard to code just link it to the no recall areas.

 

[popps]

You dont think some people out there dont have the time or wouldnt take the time to do this Popps?? I bet you they would.. =/
Just like on some shards where the population is low, ppl already chain spawns all day and when they arent, another guild is.

Some, perhaps, but I doubt it that it would be too many players having that much time to actually use 105s and 110s to put together zillions of 120s....

That is, I don't see it as a significant problem should we have 105s and 110s spawn in Trammel.

 

[dukarlo]

Powerscrolls are dirt cheap nowadays. A few may be on the more pricey side but so what. Champ spawns are the last bit of old school type pking in the game. Allowing scrolls in Trammel would eliminate this. Fel has been watered down and Trammified enough as it is. The solution to get scrolls is simple.
1 Get organized and get a group of people on and work as a team to get them.(promotes fights which are fun)
2 Try to sneak spawns at off hours solo and be at the mercy of getting raided.
3 make a thief(this has been butchered beyond belief tho, thnx stealth archers)
4 farm other items or gold in the safety of trammel in order to barter for scrolls(believe it or not this can actually promote player interaction)

I never understood how people can actually come on here and complain that there is something left in Fel to fight over. When scrolls were introduced the whole idea to replacing looting of players corpses, weapons armor etc would be having the scrolls to fight and pk over. Im against anything that further waters down the original ruleset(Fel) and I believe aloowing scrolls of any kind would do that. The fact of the matter is scrolls can be obtained on any facet. This whole movement is simply a case of Trammel players wanting the game even easier than they have it now. Ive always played almost exclusively in Fel and am not rich in game but have always been able to get my characters proper pvp gear because of income I can make at champs. I dont want to see the opttion of players making a living in Fel taken away. Nobodies ever tried to take a Trammies living away have they?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Nobodies ever tried to take a Trammies living away have they?

You're right, how would the people who support this idea feel about making a Fel version of the Doom Gauntlet and putting all the good arties on the Fel side and all the ones that are basically only good for Relics on the Malas side? It's the same principle after all. & all the Peerless, & Parragons, & ML, & ToT, & most events.

 

[CatLord]

For the past years I did my best to bring equality into UO...

We all play the same... we all have access to the same items.

I did ALOT of research... and lean't alot about how the merchant guilds operate.

Not long ago it was possible to make 300mil per week from powerscrolls... now it isn't (at least not on most shards)...

If you add to that the current price of one million on some shards ($0,25)... and how it fell from $1,50 you will see a Deflaction of real $ per game item and an Inflaction inside UO...

The items cost more (ingame) but less if paid with real $... (an effort to keep somekind of profit...)


I believe once we reach the $0,10 per uo million... most of the leeches will leave uo for greener(more profitable) pastures...

Then we'll find out who plays uo for fun... and who plays uo for a living...

Until then... you will have a huge roar... of Fel defenders... prolly merchants... or the few exceptions... true pvpers.

 

[popps]

Yes, people PvP just for the fun and thrill every day however raiding and defending spawns offers an alternative way to PvP and the value of PS means there is something tangible to fight for giving the overall battle more meaning.

Unfortunately, as I see it, the negative effects counter and quite some whatever positive effects may come from Powerscrolls exclusive of Felucca.

How so ?

Because by becoming a monopoly of only a limited number of players, and being Power Scrolls highly seeked for in the game (that is worthy many millions), basically the results they determined, as I see it, is that they have brought an enormous amount of wealth to too few players and, since Ultima Online is (unfortunately, IMHO) too much dependant on items and their modifiers, the fact that a limited number of players might have such a large wealth at their disposal just allowed a little number of players to become even stronger (more wealth means larger ability to obtain better items) and so make it even more difficult for anyone to break those monopolies not being able to outfit and compete at that same level.

At that point, the game becomes dead locked and dull.

Those players wanting to break the monopoly find it too hard to break it because those holding the monopoly have accumulated too much wealth and, therefore, high end items to be beatable (their modifiers, thanking to their wealth, are just too much to beat), and those who hold the monopoly for the scrolls may find the game dull because of lack of challenge.

So, that's bad for everyone, IMHO.

That is why I think that developers should step in and do some changes, to break the dead lock and the stall the game as come to in regards to Champion Spawns and their monopoly.

Having 105s and 110s spawn in Trammel could be a start in the right direction to break the monopoly of Champion Spawns, IMHO.

 

[popps]

I never understood how people can actually come on here and complain that there is something left in Fel to fight over. When scrolls were introduced the whole idea to replacing looting of players corpses, weapons armor etc would be having the scrolls to fight and pk over. Im against anything that further waters down the original ruleset(Fel) and I believe aloowing scrolls of any kind would do that. The fact of the matter is scrolls can be obtained on any facet. This whole movement is simply a case of Trammel players wanting the game even easier than they have it now. Ive always played almost exclusively in Fel and am not rich in game but have always been able to get my characters proper pvp gear because of income I can make at champs. I dont want to see the opttion of players making a living in Fel taken away. Nobodies ever tried to take a Trammies living away have they?

I have heard the argument that 120s are needed to Felucca to survive.

I disagree entirely.

All they have done is give to Felucca the bad reputation it has and keep lots of players well away from it.

Why ?

Because the wealth they brought made it so that a limited number of players established their exclusive control and monopoly to use the millions to get the best items and so become even stronger and more impossible to be fought and won.

I imagine if the developers coded a limit of pricing for 120s (at the MOST 10,000 gold points for a 120, period) or made them impossible to be traded, if arguments would be different.....

Personally, I think 120s harmed Felucca way, but way more than they may have helped it.

They helped a small number of players to become uber rich and uber powerfull, almost impossible to be beaten but Felucca ? My opinion is that Felucca resulted being a victim of this design choices.

 

[popps]

You're right, how would the people who support this idea feel about making a Fel version of the Doom Gauntlet and putting all the good arties on the Fel side and all the ones that are basically only good for Relics on the Malas side? It's the same principle after all. & all the Peerless, & Parragons, & ML, & ToT, & most events.

It is a non argument, IMHO.

Why ?

Because most of the players who do Champion Spawns ALSO have blues to do Doom and whatever they want in trammel ruleset.

That is, they DO HAVE access to both worlds.

On the contrary, that is not the same for those cut out from the Monopolized Champion Spawns.

So, we have a minority of players basically milking a majority of players thanking to the current design of the game which allows for Champion Spawns to be hold tight in Monopoly by a limited number of players.

I can't agree with this design, by no means. I think it hurts the game and it hurts Felucca and PvP most of everything.

It makes PvP not challenging and only helps some players easily gank other players thus deterring even more players away from PvP and make PvP not challenging and the real fun it should be.

Allowing some players to become too rich and too powerfull is not good for PvP.
What is good for PvP, IMHO, to keep it challenging and fun, is to have as many players as possible all at the same combat level.

In the real world there are in most countries anti-trust governmental agencies to control and avoid monopolies because monopolies are bad, bad and again bad and to be avoided by all means.
I do not think Ultima Online as a game differs much from that concept. Also in UO Monopolies can be bad and when players become unable to break them, then should the government (developers) step in and make changes to break those monopolies and make sure that no player can ever have control of them.

Unfortunately, during the many years that Champion spawns have been going on I have yet to see any design changes being made to actually positively make it so that holding a Monopoly of a Champion Spawn is impossible for any player or group of players.

Getting rid of Ghost cams was at attempt, yes, but eventually other ways came up, apparently, for groups to keep tight control of Champion Spawns and Power Scrolls.

I think something more effective should be done so that noone at no time can ever again keep and maintain control of Champion Spawns.
This would help, to my opinion, PvP and Felucca.

The way I see it, the key to a good PvP (fun and challenging) is NOT having some players easily dominate over others, but have as many players as possible be at the same combat level so to make it up for fights that are even and always open ended.

But to achieve this, differences in wealth and gear/weapons/modifiers must be overcome.

As long as wealth will allow to buy better items and better modifiers there will always be a number of players being able to dominate over others easily, thus making PvP for them dull, and for those at the receiving end, a frustrating task that might deter them and alienate them from PvPing any further.

At least, so I see it.

 

[Mistura]

Unfortunately, as I see it, the negative effects counter and quite some whatever positive effects may come from Powerscrolls exclusive of Felucca.

How so ?

Because by becoming a monopoly of only a limited number of players, and being Power Scrolls highly seeked for in the game (that is worthy many millions), basically the results they determined, as I see it, is that they have brought an enormous amount of wealth to too few players and, since Ultima Online is (unfortunately, IMHO) too much dependant on items and their modifiers, the fact that a limited number of players might have such a large wealth at their disposal just allowed a little number of players to become even stronger (more wealth means larger ability to obtain better items) and so make it even more difficult for anyone to break those monopolies not being able to outfit and compete at that same level.

At that point, the game becomes dead locked and dull.

Those players wanting to break the monopoly find it too hard to break it because those holding the monopoly have accumulated too much wealth and, therefore, high end items to be beatable (their modifiers, thanking to their wealth, are just too much to beat), and those who hold the monopoly for the scrolls may find the game dull because of lack of challenge.

There is no monopoly, it is possible for players to do spawns even with small numbers, if they are smart about it. I have said this already more than once, but you don't listen.

Does anyone else think Popps is a bit like the Terminator? He just can't be reasoned with.

 

[popps]

There is no monopoly, it is possible for players to do spawns even with small numbers, if they are smart about it. I have said this already more than once, but you don't listen.

Does anyone else think Popps is a bit like the Terminator? He just can't be reasoned with.

Most people who attempt to do Champion Spawns, unless they are members or allied to those Guilds who keep them tight under their monopoly, almost inevitably get raided when the Boss spawns.

Perhaps at really ackward times of the day, I don't know, but most players during non prime playing times have often things for them more important to do than what after all is only and just a game........

The problem should be solved at ALL times of the day, not force players to play at weird times for them just to get a powerscroll.....

At least, that is how I personally see it.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

It is a non argument, IMHO.

Why ?

Because most of the players who do Champion Spawns ALSO have blues to do Doom and whatever they want in trammel ruleset.

So its fine for Fel players to need a character to go to Tram while Tram players refuse to go to Fel. Thats what you're saying? I could never agree with such blatant blinkered hypocrissy.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Most people who attempt to do Champion Spawns, unless they are members or allied to those Guilds who keep them tight under their monopoly, almost inevitably get raided when the Boss spawns.

That is incorrect. Most spawns go unscouted.

The problem should be solved at ALL times of the day, not force players to play at weird times for them just to get a powerscroll.....

They aren't forced to, they chose to, because they believe things that aren't true. The only spawn that gets regularly scouted is Despise. The spawn that gets scouted the least is Island in T2A.

 

[popps]

So its fine for Fel players to need a character to go to Tram while Tram players refuse to go to Fel. Thats what you're saying? I could never agree with such blatant blinkered hypocrissy.

That is not the point.

The point is that contrary to PvM, PvP relies heavily on expensive high end items with modifiers all maxed out or close to.

Imbuing ?

Imbuing at high levels is ALSO expensive since the items (especially armour and weapons) break down relatively fast and need to be replaced.

Bottom line is, those who have more wealth have access to the best PvP outfit and, consequentially, have the upper hand to win fights.

Now, what is the best source of wealth in the game ? Powerscrolls.

Perhaps now less than it used to be but my point is that it is too late now, the damage has already been done over the years.

Allowing a limited number of players to become uber rich thanking to their Monopoly of the Champion Spawns have now made them impossible to be beaten because they always stay on top since their wealth ensure that they can always have the best PvP item and replace them swiftly as they break.

Other players, the majority, simply cannot keep up and fight this wealth availability.

And unfortunately, the way that combat is set up and the whole game organized, sheer numbers (unless really overwhelming) cannot win over better outfitting and multi-years organization (of course unless we are talking like 5-6 vs 1 which is hardly something I have seen).

So, the bottom line is that Champion Spawns stay deadlocked always under control of the same players or Guilds.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Now, what is the best source of wealth in the game ? Powerscrolls.

This is completely false. It may have been true at one time, but not any longer. I can make more gold by farming imbuing ingredients than from PS's any day of the week.

Please stop posting blatantly false information to try and prove a point. Or you can continue to do so and continue to have your arguments tossed out the window because of it.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

That is not the point.

Actually it's exactly my point. You want to do nothing but take from Fel with no risk, reason or return. And the only reason for that is your basic prejudice against people who play there which you try to disguise as their fault.

The point is that contrary to PvM, PvP relies heavily on expensive high end items with modifiers all maxed out or close to.

Doesn't make any difference, the spawns themselfs are PvM.

Imbuing ?

Has nothing to do with anything. Every player has access to it.

Bottom line is, those who have more wealth have access to the best PvP outfit and, consequentially, have the upper hand to win fights.

Well given the balance of artifacts it is the Tram players who should have the most wealth. But regardless that isn't the bottom line, you think that you're going to be any better at PvP just because you're scrolled, you aren't. A noob in arties is still a noob. A scrolled noob is still a noob. They have the upper hand because they don't cry foul when they die like it couldn't possibly because they're unaware, they think how they can avoid it the next time and improve.

Now, what is the best source of wealth in the game ? Powerscrolls.

No. Event items, runics, idocs, resources.

Allowing a limited number of players to become uber rich thanking to their Monopoly of the Champion Spawns have now made them impossible to be beaten because they always stay on top since their wealth ensure that they can always have the best PvP item and replace them swiftly as they break.

Again, being scrolled is no substitute for lack of skill and knowledge.

So, the bottom line is that Champion Spawns stay deadlocked always under control of the same players or Guilds.

No they don't. More solo spawns get done than the large guilds even know about.

 

[mbraud4]

Did I read this wrong?

popps said that most fel pvpers have a blue they can go do doom with to get the arties but its not the same as tram players with powerscrolls?

Tram players cant go to fel to get powerscrolls?

They can, they just get pked. Nothing wrong with that.

Popps you should learn that in life, theres something called RISK VS. REWARD.

This means you get a great reward by taking a great risk.

I think you should stay in tram/ter mur and farm imbuing ingredients to sell, and buy ur powerscrolls with that, problem solved. Or take the risk of being pk'ed to get ur powerscrolls yourself and enjoy the danger in risk of fel and get the full scope of UO and its many different aspects that make it such a great game.

...Or then again you could ignore everything I said and continue to ramble on blindly about the same stuff you have been crying about, ignoring any argument or evidence against you, and look like the sad blue care bear of stratics.

 

[popps]

Well given the balance of artifacts it is the Tram players who should have the most wealth. But regardless that isn't the bottom line, you think that you're going to be any better at PvP just because you're scrolled, you aren't. A noob in arties is still a noob. A scrolled noob is still a noob. They have the upper hand because they don't cry foul when they die like it couldn't possibly because they're unaware, they think how they can avoid it the next time and improve.

What item is going to be one that fetches the most gold to the owner ?

The item which is hardly accessible to the buyers, IMHO............

Now, since everyone can hunt the trammel ruleset artifacts, this means that the buyers are much scarcer (they can easily hunt for theirs if they wish so) as compared to Powerscrolls where a minority of players can hunt them (those who hold them monopolizied) but a majority of players need to buy them if they want to advance their game play.

So, Powerscrolls are better sellers and faster sellers.

Yes, nowdays that most players are scrolled up they are not so best sellers any longer but for years they were and they provided such a source of wealth to a limited number of players that they can have it much easier to dominate the PvP scene with the help of this wealth.

That is, as I see it, the damage has already been done leaving Powerscroll spawns to be monopolized for way, but really way too long.

Combat skills sure help win fights, but I think modifiers are probably a bigger help the way combat outcomes are designed to be determined.....

Besides, most of the scroll spawns monopolists have had years to add combat training to their superior gear and maxed out modifiers thus having it way easy to dispatch anyone who may want to bother disturbing their monopoly of Champion spawns....

As in regards to imbuing, yes, everyone can imbue, but imbuing at high levels ain't cheap. On the contrary, it is damn expensive due to failures and to wear and tear of armor and weapons (especially those needed for PvP combat).
So, those having the most wealth will keep being able to always stay ahead and keep a distance as far as PvP competitiveness is concerned........

This, as I see it, is the true problem with PvP in today's UO.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

What item is going to be one that fetches the most gold to the owner ?

The item which is hardly accessible to the buyers, IMHO............

Everything is accessible to everyone. Quantity and frequency are the biggest factors.

Now, since everyone can hunt the trammel ruleset artifacts, this means that the buyers are much scarcer (they can easily hunt for theirs if they wish so) as compared to Powerscrolls where a minority of players can hunt them (those who hold them monopolizied) but a majority of players need to buy them if they want to advance their game play.

No it doesn't.
They aren't monoplized.
A majority of players do not need them, or even know why, as I've said to you 3 times now.

So, Powerscrolls are better sellers and faster sellers.

No they aren't.

Yes, nowdays that most players are scrolled up they are not so best sellers any longer but for years they were and they provided such a source of wealth to a limited number of players that they can have it much easier to dominate the PvP scene with the help of this wealth.

There has never been a limited number of players with access to them. Either way its still irrelavent as everyone has access to the same items and money. The only difference is Tram players chose to make an issue out of the only thing thats in Fel and Fel players do not chose to make an issue out of the many things that are in Tram.

Besides, most of the scroll spawns monopolists have had years to add combat training to their superior gear and maxed out modifiers thus having it way easy to dispatch anyone who may want to bother disturbing their monopoly of Champion spawns....

This makes no sense.

As in regards to imbuing, yes, everyone can imbue, but imbuing at high levels ain't cheap. On the contrary, it is damn expensive due to failures and to wear and tear of armor and weapons (especially those needed for PvP combat).

It doesn't matter everyone has access to the same. You aren't there for PvP combat you are there to spawn. Being PK'd doesn't mean you have participated in PvP.

This, as I see it, is the true problem with PvP in today's UO.

I think you see problems where there are none and use them as an excuse not to try when they have no bearing on the outcome.

 

[popps]

Did I read this wrong?

popps said that most fel pvpers have a blue they can go do doom with to get the arties but its not the same as tram players with powerscrolls?

Tram players cant go to fel to get powerscrolls?

They can, they just get pked. Nothing wrong with that.

Popps you should learn that in life, theres something called RISK VS. REWARD.

Personally, I cannot call a race someone on foot running in competition with someone driving a Ferrari.

Because, to my opinion, this is what Champion spawns have been for years and are.

We have the players monopolizing the scroll spawns best outfitted, with best weapons and all mods maxed out or so and, on top of that, over the years they have also trained up combat. That is, they are driving a Ferrari.

Then we have other players, most likely not scrolled out (otherwise why would they need to bother with the spawns unless they needed the scrolls ?), with gear and weapons not a match to those of the players monopolizing the spawns by far. That is, they are those on foot.......

Now, you are telling me that those on foot have a chance versus those on a Ferrari ?

Yeah, right...........

Risk vs. reward ?
Gimme a break, the Ferraris risk nothing or hardly anything and those on foot have no reward possible because the chances to outrun those Ferraris are so slim that, why bother ?

That is why I think that most players don't even bother with the Champion Spawns, and this is why I am convinced that unless the Developers make changes, things will not change as in regards to Champion Spawns.

There is way too much a Gap between those keeping a monopoly of the spawns and those needing the scrolls.
Players alone cannot fix this because if they could, over the many many years that we have had Champion Spawns and Powerscrolls this inbalance and issue would have been fixed.

Instead, we are here STILL talking about this issue and this inbalance.

Speaks to me wonders that players cannot fix it and that Developers have to step into it introducing changes to the system to make the fight more even for a better challenge and to give to those on foot a chance versus those in a Ferrari......

I think you should stay in tram/ter mur and farm imbuing ingredients to sell, and buy ur powerscrolls with that, problem solved.

I don't think so.

The problem is only made worse.

Why ?

Because bringing more wealth to those locking the spawns only makes the spawns even more locked since the wealth gives them more tools to keep those spawns locked.

It has been going on for way too many years, and provided way too much wealth accumulation. Players cannot fix it alone. Developers are needed, IMHO.

Or take the risk of being pk'ed to get ur powerscrolls yourself and enjoy the danger in risk of fel and get the full scope of UO and its many different aspects that make it such a great game.

Risk ?? It is almost a 100% certainty to get pkilled and when one is sure to have no chance whatsoever where would be the enjoyment if I may ask ?

Now, "if" the developers evened out the field and made UO LESS dependant on items and more on actual combat tactics available to everyone, cheaply, than I would be in agreement with you but unfortunately, combat in UO works so that the items with the best modifiers have the better hand over the best combat tactic and so........

 

[mbraud4]

ferrari vs a person on foot?

Both people could have bought a ferrari, one person worked hard and bought one.

The other sat on their lazy arse complaining to the government about how its unfair they dont have one and now they have to race on foot. Instead of getting a job he continued to complain and now claims the ferrari monolpolizes everything.

Hows that analogy?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Now, you are telling me that those on foot have a chance versus those on a Ferrari ?

Yeah, right...........

In your case, no. For everyone else, yeah. You, for no discernable reason, chose to ignore that scrolls, money and items are not the deciding factors. You think that you will be able to beat another player just on the strength of one of you being scrolled and the other not, it doesn't work like that.

Risk vs. reward ?
Gimme a break, the Ferraris risk nothing or hardly anything and those on foot have no reward possible because the chances to outrun those Ferraris are so slim that, why bother ?

They are the risk. The risk is very small, for reasons I've already pointed out, that you continually chose not to see. As for why bother, thats pretty much the point of what I asked you originally, if you don't know then theres no problem.

That is why I think that most players don't even bother with the Champion Spawns

Most players do bother with them.

I am convinced that unless the Developers make changes, things will not change as in regards to Champion Spawns.

... If things don't change they'll stay the same ... (more nonsense)

There is way too much a Gap between those keeping a monopoly of the spawns and those needing the scrolls.

No there isn't.
They don't need the scrolls.

Players alone cannot fix this because if they could, over the many many years that we have had Champion Spawns and Powerscrolls this inbalance and issue would have been fixed.

Instead, we are here STILL talking about this issue and this inbalance.

The only inbalance is that every drop system in UO is in Tram apart from 1.

Speaks to me wonders that players cannot fix it and that Developers have to step into it introducing changes to the system to make the fight more even for a better challenge and to give to those on foot a chance versus those in a Ferrari......

Developers stopped trying to make UO balanced a long time ago. There are PvP inbalances but none of them are anything you've pointed out.

Because bringing more wealth to those locking the spawns only makes the spawns even more locked since the wealth gives them more tools to keep those spawns locked.

Just because you chose not to do them in no way makes them locked.

It has been going on for way too many years, and provided way too much wealth accumulation.

So have you, but you're not willing to change.

Risk ?? It is almost a 100% certainty to get pkilled and when one is sure to have no chance whatsoever where would be the enjoyment if I may ask ?

More like 10%. There are multiple spawn locations, most people who have been doing it for years are lazy when it comes to scouting, even more so when it comes to pulling out a boat for Island.

If you don't enjoy it, don't do it.

Now, "if" the developers evened out the field and made UO LESS dependant on items and more on actual combat tactics available to everyone, cheaply, than I would be in agreement with you but unfortunately, combat in UO works so that the items with the best modifiers have the better hand over the best combat tactic and so........

This doesn't relate to the topic. If you think items are all thats needed for you to spawn then you're sorely mistaken.

 

[mbraud4]

popps belongs to a huge trammy guild on a dead shard, they go out and try to do a spawn, if they see you, they dont even try to fight, they just dart for the exit.

And he wonders why they always get pked, they dont even try to practice their pvp skills.

Its like the first time you do a peerless spawn, or doom. You dont go in there and make the same mistakes as your first go round, you learned from ur mistakes and now have the doom/peerless runs down to an artform. Or you didnt see the dark father and take off running out of there, u faught, what difference is it if a monster or a player kills you.

 

[Miriandel]

So its fine for Fel players to need a character to go to Tram while Tram players refuse to go to Fel.

Since when Fel characters can't go to Trammel?
All mine can.

Felluca gives you the oppurtunity to kill anyone for no reason, it's just that, an oppportunity. Don't be a sociopath and you won't have any trouble going wherever you want.
Unless murder counts don't go away over time anymore, in which case you have a point.

 

[popps]

ferrari vs a person on foot?

Both people could have bought a ferrari, one person worked hard and bought one.

The other sat on their lazy arse complaining to the government about how its unfair they dont have one and now they have to race on foot. Instead of getting a job he continued to complain and now claims the ferrari monolpolizes everything.

Hows that analogy?

Irrelevant. IMHO.

The Ferrari could have even be built one bolt after the other, it still is irrelevant, IMHO.

The real issue is that it HURTS THE GAME to have someone on foot and someone on a Ferrari.

Sure, those on foot can also slowly build a Ferrari one bolt after the other, one dash on top of another little by little.
But WHEN will it be done to allow the race to be even close to a fair one ?

If the time is too long, then people give up and go to play other games.....
And if not enough people plays UO then resources are too scarce to keep it up and going.

So, protecting existing PvPers to maintain their upper hand in fights due to their larger accumulated wealth and stock of items back fires and hurts the game, IMHO.

The way I see it, there gotta be a compromise where the time needed for new players to catch up with existing players and be competitive at high end PvP levels is not ridicolous but reasonably acceptable.

I'd be happy to see some developers make a brand new character and play, say, 1 hour a day, every day, the game, and see how long it takes to them before they get all things needed and all money needed to truly be competitive in PvP and start winning fights.

Once they reach a status where their PvP abilities due to the items they stocked up and the wealth they stocked up will allow them to keep up with existing players, it would be interesting to hear whether they still consider this time gone as reasonable or not.

Oh, it would also be interesting to hear whether they may have wanted, along the way, to quit playing the game and move elsewhere since the task they were facing became too lenghty and tedious and, sometimes, seemed beyond reasonably reachable......

 

[popps]

This doesn't relate to the topic. If you think items are all thats needed for you to spawn then you're sorely mistaken.

Not to PvM, but to PvP modifiers are the key to winning or losing a fight, unfortunately.

Whomever has the best suit and weaponry (assuming they are all scrolled up) with the right modifiers all maxed out in place, unless utterly incapable at figthing other players, the win is easily theirs.

I am NOT saying it is necessary for PvM, I am saying it is crucial to compete in PvP (unfortunately).

I'd rather much prefer the combat determinants to shift away from modifiers and more go towards the clever use of tactics in combat through the clever use of cheap things like potions and special moves. Things any and all players can readily learn to use without need for special modifiers and wealth.

Now, THAT will make it for a competitive and fun PvP.

To hell with expensive items and damn modifiers !! Free PvP from its deadlocked situation where it is only exclusive of powergamers and wealthy players.

Make it available, finally, to all players in a reasonable time. Even out the PvP field already !!

 

[Viper09]

I see this now a popps thread about the same ol' stuff he keeps trolling about...

 

[wanderer1origin]

wonders if we suit and scroll poops out will he become a quiet player rocking in his rocking chair inflicting his theories on us no more!!!

as he will be pvping that he wishes to be !!!!!!!!

experiment i see in this

think guys to finally to quiet him down

Not to PvM, but to PvP modifiers are the key to winning or losing a fight, unfortunately.

Whomever has the best suit and weaponry (assuming they are all scrolled up) with the right modifiers all maxed out in place, unless utterly incapable at figthing other players, the win is easily theirs.

I am NOT saying it is necessary for PvM, I am saying it is crucial to compete in PvP (unfortunately).

I'd rather much prefer the combat determinants to shift away from modifiers and more go towards the clever use of tactics in combat through the clever use of cheap things like potions and special moves. Things any and all players can readily learn to use without need for special modifiers and wealth.

Now, THAT will make it for a competitive and fun PvP.

To hell with expensive items and damn modifiers !! Free PvP from its deadlocked situation where it is only exclusive of powergamers and wealthy players.

Make it available, finally, to all players in a reasonable time. Even out the PvP field already !!

 

[Mina_Lino]

Originally Posted by Lord GOD(GOD) View Post
So its fine for Fel players to need a character to go to Tram while Tram players refuse to go to Fel.

Noone is forcing anyone to go to tram or fel...
If a person wants to stay on one facet all their UO career then that's fine.

and what are the odds that ALL your chars on your account are red?