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105-110 Tram 115-120 Fel

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popps

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This would still skew fights toward the more established players, so I don't think it will work as you appear to intend.

I don't think learning to pvp is something you ever "complete". There is no fixed amount of data to absorb, and I don't think we should dumb it down. I believe the talent to think and adapt is as important as acquired knowledge, and I feel this is what gives the truly great pvpers their advantage. Skill can be taught, experience can be acquired, but talent is inherent.


But at least, players will only need to focus on the combat training and not also have to deal with wealth accumulation and items hoarding as it is now.....

This is not at all about dumbing down PvP, only make it more readily available to the widest number of players possible. Making combat tactics instead of modifiers as determining factors for fights' outcomes does not mean dumbing it now. On the contrary, it can mean making PvP more interesting if done well.

I think modifiers work against making PvP popular, they confine it to a status of a limited number of players activity and this is not good for the game, overall.
 
T

Trebr Drab

Guest
But at least, players will only need to focus on the combat training and not also have to deal with wealth accumulation and items hoarding as it is now.....

This is not at all about dumbing down PvP, only make it more readily available to the widest number of players possible. Making combat tactics instead of modifiers as determining factors for fights' outcomes does not mean dumbing it now. On the contrary, it can mean making PvP more interesting if done well.

I think modifiers work against making PvP popular, they confine it to a status of a limited number of players activity and this is not good for the game, overall.
Completely agree here. You can easily see the effects of items and PvP when you look at games like WoW. They have to separate PvP by levels and zones because of the difference in character strengths. That's fine for them, but in a sandbox game it makes it far less "sandbox".

It's even worse here, because it leads to the top powergamers always holding a heavy position of strength. That means all other players are always down on the list, always at a disadvantage, because as things even out the powergamers want more "content". In English, that's new levels of power. That's one of the big reasons why UO is suffering, in my opinion. When you look at games like Runescape, and all the numbers they have, you can't just say it's the 2D (or 2.5D) that UO doesn't have numbers. It's not the only issue, certainly, but if you've ever played Runescape, you can't tell me with any honesty that it's a better game than UO, or even as close to as good. Other than a few key issues.

I still believe that if UO had these few issues worked out, they'd be the number 2 game in subscriptions right now. The vast majority of players want fantasy. More and more old timers are missing the sandbox that UO was. More and more newer players are hearing about it and want it too.

But this is a big issue. How many players who can't ever maintain ability at or near the top are going to keep playing? UO needs to go back to a world full of events and excitement and things happening, and get away from this static levels of power through items.
 

popps

Always Present
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The man in charge of UO at EA. You know, the guy that actually has access to the real numbers and isn't posting a guess in an attempt to skew perception along a desired line of thinking. Which is what you're doing.

Besides who, I also asked for a link to the official data.

Could you please say where any official representative said that 25% of a given shard's population actually participate actively in Champion Spawns ?

That is, that 1 in 4 of all of the players of a shard actively play in Champion Spawns ?

Thank you very much.
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
Apparently they are not enough if I see that PvP is scarcely seeked by players and that Siege and Mugen are pretty much deserted shards.
Throughout this thread you've said that spawns are 'monopolized by huge zerg guilds' yet if PvP is scarcely seeked then who are they 'zerging'?

Siege and Mugen need seperate consideration, they are not as simple as 'being a Fel shard', I don't play either frequently enough to know what would work there, but know there's more to them than that.

If a feature is scarcely used by players (PvP) then this shows to me that something ain't working well about it, that there are problems.
PvP isn't scarcely used.

We've had Guilds for a very long time and yet, we STILL have PvP in this game at a sad state.
Most guilds are not trying to become PvP guilds.
 
C

Connor_Graham

Guest
Besides who, I also asked for a link to the official data.
And I didn't feel like doing your work for you. If you want to find it, go look for it yourself. Meanwhile, the rest of us already know that 25% of the UO population are PvP'rs.
 

mbraud4

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Popps you aren't cut out for pvp, you should go play yahoo checkers if you think this is such a big deal and just ruins the game.
 
E

Eyes of Origin

Guest
I've given up on this arguement. popps will clearly respond with a book every time we post something, so why bother? It was becoming a good discusson quite a few posts back, but this guy has a habit of ruining threads like this.

:rant2: :wall:
 

HD2300

Certifiable
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Stratics Legend
T

Trebr Drab

Guest
The man in charge of UO at EA. You know, the guy that actually has access to the real numbers and isn't posting a guess in an attempt to skew perception along a desired line of thinking. Which is what you're doing.

Besides who, I also asked for a link to the official data.

Could you please say where any official representative said that 25% of a given shard's population actually participate actively in Champion Spawns ?

That is, that 1 in 4 of all of the players of a shard actively play in Champion Spawns ?

Thank you very much.
Wow, those Champ Spawns must really be rockin'. :gee:
 
T

Trebr Drab

Guest
I've given up on this arguement. popps will clearly respond with a book every time we post something, so why bother? It was becoming a good discusson quite a few posts back, but this guy has a habit of ruining threads like this.

:rant2: :wall:
Yeah, what gives him the right to disagree with people, and to continue to reply with basic logic while being treated like some sort of scuzball.
 

mbraud4

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yeah, what gives him the right to disagree with people, and to continue to reply with basic logic while being treated like some sort of scuzball.
Basic logic?

Like I said before, the sky is green and the grass is blue because and only because popps says so. There is his logic, "What I say goes b/c I dont pvp but I know everything about pvp."
 
G

georgemarvin2001

Guest
I think somebody miscounted. It takes 10 105s to make a 110; 10 110s to make a 115 and 10 115s to make a 120. 10x10x10=1,000 105s to make one 120 scroll. Having 105s and 110s drop in Tram wouldn't affect the 120 powerscroll market much. Before I left UO for over a year, I had been to a lot of champ spawns, and gotten my warrior all scrolled up. However, I never received a single 120 magery or EI scroll. There's a good reason why they're like 25 million each; they hardly ever drop. And when they do, everybody wants them. Maybe the Devs should look at the drop rates for the scrolls in comparison with the number of people who have the skill.

Powerscrolls as a whole were one of the awful ideas that the AOS Dev team came up with. Maybe the worst. Before AOS, UO was mostly skill based. I actually liked the UO:R idea of Trammel and the new skills of chivalry and necro. But AOS ruined the balance in PvP, made weapons and armor far too complicated, vastly unbalanced PvP due to power scrolls and artifacts, which made a few very rich players totally unkillable and the rest of us had to either spend endless hours in Doom and champ spawns just to stand a chance, and pretty much made the whole game a lot less fun.

When powerscrolls were introduced, if the Devs had increased the skill cap to 820, to allow us to keep 7 skills at maximum, and made them easy enough to get that it would have kept PvP balanced, it wouldn't have been so bad. If they had just NOT PUT THEM IN THE GAME IN THE FIRST PLACE, it would have been much better.

When I got back to UO, I noticed that things have changed somewhat; the current power scroll system does benefit a couple of large guilds, which monitor all the champ spawns and raid them just in time to get the scrolls, if any Tram guild does venture into Fel to do a spawn. Other than those PvP guilds, everybody is stuck with the prospect of buying PS, or praying that they can escape the carnage with one.

A really good set of Devs wouldn't have needed power scrolls to get people to stay in Fel (remember that most of us still lived there before AOS). They could have made it so that valorite and frostwood only spawned in Fel. They could have made it so that the monsters in Fel had the best loot. The ML and Tokuno expansions could have had Fel rulesets in parts of the dungeons. Especially places like the Trog cave, where you can just stand there and collect 500 gold every 5 seconds. If you need something massively expensive, just stand in the cave and pick up the gold from the Trog corpses, which fall as fast as they can spawn. Empty your bank and carry a bag of sending and 100 trans powder. In a day's time, you can buy that jackal's collar or 120 magery PS. They could have made it so that normal people had a real incentive to go to Fel, not just hardcore PvPers. They could have forgotten the whole idea of power scrolls and kept PvP balanced. Fel could have been the place that people went to play the game, once they had "wet their feet" in tram. Instead, it's a deserted wasteland, where the reds rule. Before AOS, people still played in Fel. I kept a second account just to keep a Fel house; I went to Khaldun a lot because it was the best place to get a vanq weapon. The Tentacles of the Harrower always had people at it, taking turns. Sometimes a red would venture in, but the other people there would team up and kill him. It wasn't all hostility and hatred. The way that AOS was implemented turned Fel into a place that maybe 80% of the players don't even venture into for fear of insta-death; the artifacts were put into the Tram ruleset. Players can get the best crafting materials without venturing into Fel. The best monster loot is in the ML dungeons. Nearly all the quests are in the Tram ruleset. And the one resource that only spawns in Fel is limited to champ spawns, which require several players in a guild to work, and when they are worked, are easily taken away from the normal players by the PvP guilds.

I have a better solution to the power scroll situation, and the fact that Fel is deserted, to boot:
1. Make sure that there are really tough monsters, like the ancient wyrm in Destard and put one back in level 4 Covetous to replace the useless event dragon that's still there, on the bottom levels of all the Fel dungeons. Make the Khaldun tentacles a little stronger. Those creatures would all have a chance of dropping both fel-only (NOT OVERPOWERED, but useful) artifacts and power scrolls, up to 120s. People with max skills should be able to solo them, and the drop rate could be pretty low, like for the marties at Miasma, or lower.
2. Change the RNG so that Fel ruleset mining and lumberjacking has a much better chance of giving valorite and frostwood. Make the odds for them much lower in Tram rulesets. I noticed that the opposite seems to be in effect lately; my miner spent the day in Fel and was PK'ed 8 times, losing 4k in insurance, a garg pickaxe, prospector's tool, several shovels and all the ore I had mined every time, but I only found 1 valorite vein, and it only lasted 3 or 4 times digging until I would get the "no metal" dialogue; I went to Tram ruleset mines and found 3 spots in a matter of minutes, and each was good for about 16 times digging. Who cares if we get 2x the ore per use of the shovel, when the total ore from the spot is less than in Tram, and the valorite spots are less common? Shovels are worthless, I just tinker new ones when they wear out, and the valorite ore is worth 500 gold per ingot. I know that it showed me that mining in Fel is pretty much a waste of both time and gold.

Besides changing the RNG so that mining in Fel is worth the added risk, they should make a new set of fel-only crafting marties that you can only get by harvesting resources in Fel. A shovel that never wears out. A hammer that never wears out. A sewing kit that never wears out. A lockpick that doesn't break when it fails for a GM lockpicker. And crafting powerscrolls. Most crafters already have them, so most of them would just be dropped on the ground, but they would be an incentive for newer crafters to venture to Fel.

(Making lockpicks break at GM and tools wear out in the first place was one of the many AOS grief tactics that the Devs pulled that I never will understand. Pre-AOS, a character could just keep the newbied lockpick he got as a new character, not use it till he GM'ed lockpicking and never have to worry about it breaking. At GM lockpicking, you shouldn't fail 35 times and break 15 lockpicks before picking a lock!!! Pre-AOS, a miner could just keep his newbied shovel. A tailor could keep his newbied sewing kit. A blacksmith kept his newbied hammer. WHY OH WHY did the AOS team make them all wear out??????????? It's like the AOS team had a bet about how much they could mess up before we all left.)

I like the idea of having the high-end monsters at the lowest levels of all the Fel dungeons drop power scrolls and a fel-only set of arties and fel resources drop crafting powerscrolls a LOT better than having any power scrolls drop in Tram, but letting the low-end ones drop in Tram really wouldn't make any difference anyway, when it takes 1,000 of the 105s to make just 1 120.
 

popps

Always Present
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Throughout this thread you've said that spawns are 'monopolized by huge zerg guilds' yet if PvP is scarcely seeked then who are they 'zerging'?

I do not recall using the word "huge".... I just said there is a limited number of players monopolizing the spawns and precluding it to a wider number of players...

I do remember Champion Spawns back when they started and back then, for a few months, they were highly attended. Not to mention the Harrower. I have memories of floods of players all together hunting the Harrower.

Today, sadly, is an entire different story.


Siege and Mugen need seperate consideration, they are not as simple as 'being a Fel shard', I don't play either frequently enough to know what would work there, but know there's more to them than that.

PvP isn't scarcely used.

Most guilds are not trying to become PvP guilds.

That's my point, if a large number (relative to the shard population, of course) of players chooses to stay well away from PvP, probably there are good reasons for this choice ?

Perhaps rather then being all fine and dandy there do are problems with the way PvP is, today ? Just perhaps ?

And, if there do are problems with PvP since most players do not want to bother with it, wouldn't it be better to figure out what the problems are that make PvP a game feature scarcely used by players and make the needed changes so that it can (finally) become more popular ?
 

popps

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Stratics Legend
Basic logic?

Like I said before, the sky is green and the grass is blue because and only because popps says so. There is his logic, "What I say goes b/c I dont pvp but I know everything about pvp."


What wrong is there in the concept that a game feature is succesfull as long as it is seeked by players?

That is, that if players stay the hell away from a game feature (namely PvP...), ain't perhaps that something is NOT RIGHT with that game feature since it is not able to attract large numbers of players to it ?

In my book, popularity of a feature means large number of users, not marginal numbers....

In all honesty, personally I cannot say that PvP is a popular feature in Ultima Online.

And if it is not, this hints to me that something must be wrong with it or, way, but way more people would love PvPing in UO.

Unfortunately, from what I can see when I log in the game, that is not the case.

Yet, I get people tell me everything is fine and dandy with PvP in UO. Go figure.......
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
That's my point, if a large number (relative to the shard population, of course) of players chooses to stay well away from PvP, probably there are good reasons for this choice ?
That doesn't make those reasons a fault in PvP, some people just prefer other things.
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
What wrong is there in the concept that a game feature is succesfull as long as it is seeked by players?

That is, that if players stay the hell away from a game feature (namely PvP...), ain't perhaps that something is NOT RIGHT with that game feature since it is not able to attract large numbers of players to it ?

In my book, popularity of a feature means large number of users, not marginal numbers....

In all honesty, personally I cannot say that PvP is a popular feature in Ultima Online.

And if it is not, this hints to me that something must be wrong with it or, way, but way more people would love PvPing in UO.

Unfortunately, from what I can see when I log in the game, that is not the case.

Yet, I get people tell me everything is fine and dandy with PvP in UO. Go figure.......
Your point of view is ridiculous. Just because someone selects what aspects of the game they enjoy doesn't mean the ones they don't are broken.
 

mbraud4

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
What wrong is there in the concept that a game feature is succesfull as long as it is seeked by players?

That is, that if players stay the hell away from a game feature (namely PvP...), ain't perhaps that something is NOT RIGHT with that game feature since it is not able to attract large numbers of players to it ?

In my book, popularity of a feature means large number of users, not marginal numbers....

In all honesty, personally I cannot say that PvP is a popular feature in Ultima Online.

And if it is not, this hints to me that something must be wrong with it or, way, but way more people would love PvPing in UO.

Unfortunately, from what I can see when I log in the game, that is not the case.

Yet, I get people tell me everything is fine and dandy with PvP in UO. Go figure.......
Because certain people do not enjoy / are afraid of PvP does not mean PvP is broken.

There is the sky is green and grass is blue logic again.
 

phantus

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Soo funny. Powerscrolls are so 2004. It's amusing people still care about them. It's amusing you have to PvM to get them. They suck and need to be replaced with something else and given to the trammies. How about a real pvp reward?
If that was the case why do reds still raid spawns?
Because there is nothing else to do? Oh wait fel gate is awesome right?

Fel needs new stuff. Give the trammies the old crap and put in something new.
 

popps

Always Present
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Stratics Legend
Because certain people do not enjoy / are afraid of PvP does not mean PvP is broken.

There is the sky is green and grass is blue logic again.


Alright, I suppose that means that PvP is just fine as it is and needs nothing ?

Right ?

Ok, then the developers will be able to focus on trammel ruleset facets and just forget about Felucca PvP ruleset.

Developers, you heard that, right ? There is nothing wrong at all with Felucca and PvP.

PvP in Ultima Online is fine and dandy and all wonderfull, you need not bother and waste time there since it just works perfectly.

Please concentrate then your effort on Trammel ruleset facets and simply leave PvP and the Felucca facet alone.

Oh yeah..................

/sarcasm
 

Viper09

Grand Poobah
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Stratics Legend
Alright, I suppose that means that PvP is just fine as it is and needs nothing ?

Right ?

Ok, then the developers will be able to focus on trammel ruleset facets and just forget about Felucca PvP ruleset.

Developers, you heard that, right ? There is nothing wrong at all with Felucca and PvP.

PvP in Ultima Online is fine and dandy and all wonderfull, you need not bother and waste time there since it just works perfectly.

Please concentrate then your effort on Trammel ruleset facets and simply leave PvP and the Felucca facet alone.

Oh yeah..................

/sarcasm
Sure PvP in fel needs some lovin'

But since you don't PvP how would you know what it needs? Why should anyone believe that someone who never PvPs know the faults of PvP?

It would be like someone criticizing a game they never ever played.

Do yourself a favor and actually try PvP. Whether it is on test shard, on your own shard in fel or a guild war with your friends in tram before you go claiming you know all the faults with it.
 
T

Trebr Drab

Guest
Alright, I suppose that means that PvP is just fine as it is and needs nothing ?

Right ?

Ok, then the developers will be able to focus on trammel ruleset facets and just forget about Felucca PvP ruleset.

Developers, you heard that, right ? There is nothing wrong at all with Felucca and PvP.

PvP in Ultima Online is fine and dandy and all wonderfull, you need not bother and waste time there since it just works perfectly.

Please concentrate then your effort on Trammel ruleset facets and simply leave PvP and the Felucca facet alone.

Oh yeah..................

/sarcasm
Sure PvP in fel needs some lovin'

But since you don't PvP how would you know what it needs? Why should anyone believe that someone who never PvPs know the faults of PvP?

It would be like someone criticizing a game they never ever played.

Do yourself a favor and actually try PvP. Whether it is on test shard, on your own shard in fel or a guild war with your friends in tram before you go claiming you know all the faults with it.
I don't know. Connor, for being a "pure Trammie", seems to know enough about it to vehemently support all that is Fel.
 

popps

Always Present
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It would be like someone criticizing a game they never ever played.


It depends, as I see it, if the issue was about fine tuning of a feature then it would require the experience of those who know that feature well.

Instead, if the issue was to increase the popularity of that given feature, then the question why a feature is not popular, IMHO, should be directed in primis at those not liking it, whatever their reasons, to find out why that given feature is not appealing to many and what can be done to increase its appeal in those who do not like it.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
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Stratics Legend
Now if they went and made scrolls so anyone had a reasonable chance at getting one how would the real world traders make money selling a 120 mage for $12.99 or the 25 million gold they collect selling the scrolls in game for $24.99? A very very small percentage of the player base has a real chance at getting their own scroll and never will so long as the is real cash involved in it.
 
C

Connor_Graham

Guest
I don't know. Connor, for being a "pure Trammie", seems to know enough about it to vehemently support all that is Fel.
Way to overexaggerate things. I support PS's staying in Fel for the sole reason that it's the only reward PvP'rs have that's theirs and theirs alone.
 

mbraud4

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Alright, I suppose that means that PvP is just fine as it is and needs nothing ?

Right ?

Ok, then the developers will be able to focus on trammel ruleset facets and just forget about Felucca PvP ruleset.

Developers, you heard that, right ? There is nothing wrong at all with Felucca and PvP.

PvP in Ultima Online is fine and dandy and all wonderfull, you need not bother and waste time there since it just works perfectly.

Please concentrate then your effort on Trammel ruleset facets and simply leave PvP and the Felucca facet alone.

Oh yeah..................

/sarcasm
Yup leave PS's alone and take popps lame arse back to tram.

Sure stuff is wrong here and there in Fel, nothing to the extent of popps ramblings. And popps is the last person to have a clue whats wrong in fel b/c he is a big trammy. How is this so hard for you to understand popps? Frick off and stop stirring the pot. You are just trolling for a fight now. You have drifted off the subject of PS since your points have been counter argued time and time again and now you are trying to pick a fight on something else. I am paging a mod because its obvious you are doing nothing but trolling here and everything that needed to be discussed already has been. Now stop being the Ann Coulter of stratics and find something better to do with your time.
 
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