Thieving in Trammel.

[Aibal]

Aibal, why you trammies get so aggresive and call averyone troll when someone proposes a real change, something that will really be like the spirit of old UO?

Are you so freaking scared of being forced to do even the smallest effort to think and adapt to something?


Coward.

LOL. My houses are in Fel and I spend much of my time there. What I, and everyone else is saying, doesn't seem to sink in with you. There is never going to be free-for-all stealing allowed in Tram because the MAJORITY of the player base doesn't want it there. They want their "carebear" existence, as you like to put it. They are HAPPY with that game style. They DON'T want what you propose, so grow up and deal with it. You're NOT getting stealing in Tram, so quit whining about it.

 

[WhityJinn]

Now, I`m absolutely sure, that if the developers preserved the True spirit of Ultima Online, and hadnt made all these lame carebear changes, the game would still have lots of players...perhaps MANY more than it has now.Why?
Because many people would see that Ultima Online is different than ALL OTHER MMOS, and thats why they would come.Many, many players who would seek the challenge that is the UO gameplay.

Instead, now we have a poor, ugly, 13years old clone of WoW.Ya know, a 70 year old cripple shemale prostitute can`t really pretend that he`s a woman.Thou, she would still have some customers once in a while, some people are really perverted.

But the new UO devs lacked the creativity and Inspiration of the original team, so they made a clone of WoW.Who the hell would play that game, when they could just move to WoW/Lineage/another carebear korean mmo with purple dragons that breathe rainbow flamestrikes.

That`s why we don`t have many players in UO.And that`s why pre-AoS free shard get alot of players.

If UO was different than all those WoW-clones out there, many more people would come and try it, and many would like it, because the original Ultima Online was all about challenge, cooperation, trade and all of the other srs bsns that is now gone.

Well, it seems that other game devs proved to be smarter than the UO team, they know what lots of people would like to see.
There is already Darkfall, and there are some other similar games in development, games, that are much like the original UO than this wow-clone we are playing currently.

 

[WhityJinn]

Aibal, I CANT steal in Fel, because in Fel you have two options:

1)bandages at Yew gate
2)boring powerScroll camping in dungeons.

And you know that.Don`t pretend that you don`t know.

Aibal, maybe they are happy with their trammy existence.But they are able to adapt, and they won`t even say a word.They still have their guilds, their castles and their purple neon cusidhes.They won`t leave just like that.

And if the devs hadn`t crippled UO, we would have had more players.ALl the trammies would move to WoW and l2, and many real playaz, who currently play Darkfall, EVE and other hardcore stuff, might as well have been UO players.

Sorry you guys don`t undestand it, and it`s a pitty that you are absolutely sure that all the people on Earth are trammies/potentially trammies.

There are THOUSANDS of hardcore players out there.FREAKIN THOUSANDS.

I already told you what games they are playing.Why are they in those games, not in WoW?

 

[Aibal]

Aibal, I CANT steal in Fel, because in Fel you have two options:

1)bandages at Yew gate
2)boring powerScroll camping in dungeons.

And you know that.Don`t pretend that you don`t know.

Yep. And WHY are there no people to steal from in Fel? Because they don't want that play style. They want carebear. They won't tolerate being stolen from in Tram or having anything bad happen to them there, so they won't put up with it. They will not have your game style forced on them, which is why they are in Tram. See the circularity of your logic?

 

[WhityJinn]

Actually didnt even read your post.All of you trammel guys have only one thing to say, and say it over and over again, just in different words.

So, what are all of those guys doing in EVE, Darkfall, and other hardcore mmos?Perhaps, if UO devs were smart, those guys would be playing UO?

 

[Tazar]

WhityJinn, What you do not seem to get is that the "True Spirit" of UO is the virtues - not griefing. Griefing has nearly killed UO time and again. Trammel is the fix - not the problem... for everyone except the griefers.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

Why have you not responded to my questions to you in prior posts? Perhaps because they were toucjing on the truth?

You and other Fel residents gripe about the "Trammelization" of Fel. Insurance-wise I agree and I would love to see it gone - from all over. However please stop trying to get Trammel changed to Fel rules. It will not occur.

I daresay that if it did occur, there **might** (key word: might) be an account closure rush that would exceed earlier exoduses. Oh look, not a derogatory name-calling in the post. How about that?

 

[Dryzzid of Atlantic]

stealing potions and bandages is fun?You just don`t get it then.

..wait O.O (reads Dryzzid`s title)

its some kind of rp right?stealing bandages.

Oh I do get it. You want to be able to steal anything at anytime anywhere. Argue til you're blue in the face but it won't happen. Break it down to a basic Tram vs. Fel fight and it still won't happen. I am a thief and I would not want it to happen. I like having people to steal from and the fact is people would quit the game if they could be robbed at Luna Bank. The fact that the whole Tram vs. Fel arguement still continues amazes me.

Trammel came in 2000, so the game has more years with a Trammel setting that it did without one. And what happened pre-Tram? People acted like children and griefed. It sounds like you don't want to play the game for fun, moreso that you want to to be able to cause grief everwhere you go.

And, by the way, I don't steal bandages, I steal scrolls and artifacts. Not for a role-play reason but because it lines my coffers. The +20 mystic sitting on my vendor at the moment proves that, as well as the stolen Protector of the Battle Mage on my necro. I make plenty of gold and see plenty of activity just being a champion spawn thief.

 

[Assia Penryn]

Aibal, I CANT steal in Fel, because in Fel you have two options:

1)bandages at Yew gate
2)boring powerScroll camping in dungeons.

You need to have more practice with patience and playing a thief if that is all you are able to steal in Felucca.

If you want excitement. Get a solid group mix of thieves and combat-orientated. Target steal something vital to the target's survival and then kill them with ease. Find some friends and work as a team.

Perhaps it is because I started before Trammel, but pvp was never about 'stuff I could loot/steal', but the actual pvp and adrenaline itself. We could loot back then, but unless folks were being jerks we usually just left the stuff on the corpse.

 

[UOKaiser]

Hello! I am a Siege player. I could not play Siege if thousands of you other players were not playing where ever it is you play.

If UO depended upon Siege subscriptions, we would have been done years ago.

Trammel saved this game. I know it and you know it. Trammel allows Fel and Siege to survive. If you believe otherwise you are a fool.

Trammel pays the bills.

Agreed with you 100%. Now can you please wisper to the DEV ears on next convention to stop killing trammel!!! And stop taking advise from people with popps like beliefs. They seem to keep ignoring me

 

[Requiem_baja]

Oh I do get it. You want to be able to steal anything at anytime anywhere. Argue til you're blue in the face but it won't happen. Break it down to a basic Tram vs. Fel fight and it still won't happen. I am a thief and I would not want it to happen. I like having people to steal from and the fact is people would quit the game if they could be robbed at Luna Bank. The fact that the whole Tram vs. Fel arguement still continues amazes me.

Trammel came in 2000, so the game has more years with a Trammel setting that it did without one. And what happened pre-Tram? People acted like children and griefed. It sounds like you don't want to play the game for fun, moreso that you want to to be able to cause grief everwhere you go.

And, by the way, I don't steal bandages, I steal scrolls and artifacts. Not for a role-play reason but because it lines my coffers. The +20 mystic sitting on my vendor at the moment proves that, as well as the stolen Protector of the Battle Mage on my necro. I make plenty of gold and see plenty of activity just being a champion spawn thief.

So your that annoying guy that I always have to sleep spam to keep from getting away!

 

[Dryzzid of Atlantic]

So your that annoying guy that I always have to sleep spam to keep from getting away!

That's why the guild's called GNAT The annoyance factor is implied..

 

[WhityJinn]

Damn guys, I hoped that RPers here would be more like the rpers I remember from 1999.You guys watch Shaman King and play Pokemon?

Whatever.carpe baculum - MMORPG.com Blogs - Why Electronic Arts' Ultima Online Sucks?

 

[WhityJinn]

I gotta leave for about a month or so.

For all of you classic server supporters - Stay True, guys.There`s nothing more important than that.Because if you give up, you`ll be left with that neon-colored trammy bullcrap we have now.
So it`s worth the try, I wish you luck.

All the others may simply rot, for all I care.They play and like some ugly clone of WoW, not Ultima Online.They are not True.

And those who vote for a Classic Server are True.It`s that simple.You can`t take what`s yours by right, without offending or hurting anyone.

Cya.

 

[Taylor]

kthxbai

 

[Lord Frodo]

I gotta leave for about a month or so.

 

[Surgeries]

I gotta leave for about a month or so.

Cya.

Awwww....

Take your time going, but please don't hurry back!!

 

[WhityJinn]

Oooh, you sound so bad, I`m so scared.

After being in a company of tough guys and bullies for many years, I don`t actually get affected by such foolish replies, nor can I be offended in any way.
Childish.

Damn, you are so hardcore.You roll hard.
;D

 

[Surgeries]

Oooh, you sound so bad, I`m so scared.

After being in a company of tough guys and bullies for many years, I don`t actually get affected by such foolish replies, nor can I be offended in any way.
Childish.

Damn, you are so hardcore.You roll hard.
;D

Funny...I find the best way to deal with "Rough" treatment is to not give the Bullies any satisfaction.

Just the fact that you replied to us is proof enough for me...

Thanks for the validation.

Have a super trip, tough guy!! Don't beat up too many people...hold that Tough Guy torch high!!

Tough Guy!! Yeah!!!

 

[Lord Frodo]

Funny...I find the best way to deal with "Rough" treatment is to not give the Bullies any satisfaction.

Just the fact that you replied to us is proof enough for me...

Thanks for the validation.

Have a super trip, tough guy!! Don't beat up too many people...hold that Tough Guy torch high!!

Tough Guy!! Yeah!!!

 

[WhityJinn]

and what`s so wrong with me being tough?Are you afraid of tough guys who can beat the crap out of your skull without any hesitation?

Yea, I know, most of you are good guys, with jobs, families, reputation and such..

Gladly traded all of these things for a leather jacket and a pair of Doc Martens`.Never felt sorry about that.It`s fine, and a classic shard is fine.

After all, we are all gonna die, life can`t last forever.I choose to support what I love the most.
Here on these forums it`s the Classic Shard.

Farewell.

 

[Old Man of UO]

and what`s so wrong with me being tough?Are you afraid of tough guys who can beat the crap out of your skull without any hesitation?
...

1 Million gold to the first Mod who changes his name to WhineyJinn!

 

[Lord Frodo]

1 Million gold to the first Mod who changes his name to WhineyJinn!

I will add 1 mill too.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

me too ... making the lottery at 3 mil!

 

[Evlar]

Although I'll venture that over the years, I've seen far more "griefing", in Tram than Fel (just in different ways than stealing or PK'ing...), the majority of current players have made it pretty clear what they prefer about the concept of the Tram ruleset, over the Fel ruleset.

There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong at all. Just like there's nothing wrong with a more hardcore, completely open, anything goes, classic option. What goes on, is entirely in the hands of the players and such a server, lives or dies by the players.

For those who want thieving or open PvP in Tram, it's not gonna happen. Simples.

Play Siege or play a pre-Ren emulation shard, if that's the overall type of UO experience you want. Either that, or wait to see if an official classic option actually gets off the ground.

If your preferred play-style is attacking weaker players without risk, then those days are long gone. If that's really what you want, then even the pre-Ren emulator servers or Siege cannot help you I'm afraid, because there, players actually fight back.

I loved pre-AOS and pre-Ren UO, because I quickly adapted to the potential harshness of the gaming environment and enjoyed the challenge. I could never understand the point of playing just to upset other players. I probably never will.

You know, I would really like to see a classic shard, simply to see how some of the "griefer" type players (those who's jollies came from causing as much annoyance as they could), would handle players fully aware of what they're up to and could fight back. Indeed I believe, once they realised there were no easy pickings, they wouldn't likely be around for long.

I don't see the point in advocating enforcing a gameplay style on people that wouldn't enjoy it. What's the point? Much better to have a server where people would enjoy those elements of gameplay, right?

Interestingly, I'm playing a strategy based MMO game, which is entirely PvP orientated. There's little to no griefing, because the other players can actually do something about it themselves. The rare griefers and smack-talkers come, get smashed to bits, then leave with their tail between their legs. It's great!

 

[Adol]

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

This could be done by using some type of random placement on characters so that when a thief peaks into a pack they see an item that the player doesn't really have and is able to attempt to steal it.

So, an example would be, i'm standing in Brit, i'm completely naked and I have nothing in my pack. I happen to be standing there with 10 other people who happen to be naked and they also have empty packs, in Trammel.

A mean, nasty thief comes in and looks puzzled and begins peaking in our packs. In the first 4 people he doesn't see anything in their packs but then someone happens to have an orny on them. So, the thief tries to steal the orny.

Now, if the thief is successful, he has a chance to get away with the orny but if he's not successful, he turns grey. Now, once the thief turns grey, everyone is able to attack him.

So, all the naked people will see this thief turn grey and then be able to kill the thief.

So, turning grey as a thief would allow for people to attack you in Trammel and the people you are stealing from are not really losing anything because it's spawned into your pack once you steal it, before that the items really don't exist.

Did you just describe Fel?

Oh, you didn't? I don't know how I was confused...

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

Now, I`m absolutely sure, that if the developers preserved the True spirit of Ultima Online, and hadnt made all these lame carebear changes, the game would still have lots of players...perhaps MANY more than it has now.Why?
Because many people would see that Ultima Online is different than ALL OTHER MMOS, and thats why they would come.Many, many players who would seek the challenge that is the UO gameplay.

Instead, now we have a poor, ugly, 13years old clone of WoW.Ya know, a 70 year old cripple shemale prostitute can`t really pretend that he`s a woman.Thou, she would still have some customers once in a while, some people are really perverted.

But the new UO devs lacked the creativity and Inspiration of the original team, so they made a clone of WoW.Who the hell would play that game, when they could just move to WoW/Lineage/another carebear korean mmo with purple dragons that breathe rainbow flamestrikes.

That`s why we don`t have many players in UO.And that`s why pre-AoS free shard get alot of players.

If UO was different than all those WoW-clones out there, many more people would come and try it, and many would like it, because the original Ultima Online was all about challenge, cooperation, trade and all of the other srs bsns that is now gone.

Well, it seems that other game devs proved to be smarter than the UO team, they know what lots of people would like to see.
There is already Darkfall, and there are some other similar games in development, games, that are much like the original UO than this wow-clone we are playing currently.

Apparently you missed the interview with Richard Garriot when he said he said surprised people were actually killing each other in UO. He hadn't even thought about it, but with the anonymity of the internet, people were more likely to do it.
UO is not a WoW clone. There was a Tram before there was a WoW. If anything, it is the other way around.

 

[copycon]

Apparently you missed the interview with Richard Garriot when he said he said surprised people were actually killing each other in UO. He hadn't even thought about it, but with the anonymity of the internet, people were more likely to do it.
UO is not a WoW clone. There was a Tram before there was a WoW. If anything, it is the other way around.

Well, looking at that argument from a different perspective... What would Garriott have said otherwise? That he enjoys players killing each other and wants to see more? Or, maybe that he didn't care that people were killing each other? That would have been met with outrage from the community who, for the most part, did not enjoy being killed by another player and wanted to play UO as it is today which is a linear, lifeless, predictable shell of a game that does it's best to emulate something that it isn't. I think people are missing out on what UO could have been if the right minds were put to good use.

I think the fact that UO is what it is today is a perfect example of the extreme misconception of what UO was meant to be. I think it also shows why there are people like us who would like to see a change. The majority feel that "our" game was taken away from us, and we would like to see changes that made it what it was so many years ago. But, that argument has been made... let the chips fall where they may.

Furthermore, I don't quite understand why people are so afraid of the concept when there were so many people who enjoyed it in the past. Do they really think that there is no possible way that they could enjoy a game that involved something more than killing the same monster(s) over and over? Or a game that involved a situation where they actually had to run/escape from something besides a programmed AI? Think about it... have you ever watched a movie or a TV show that had a persuit in one form or another and not felt excitement? Did you not enjoy that feeling? What if YOU WERE the person chasing, or the person being chased? It would force you to actually think about what you were doing and item hoarding could come at a cost. Amazing, "thought", what a novel idea...

Think what you will of my comparisons, but it is true. The feelings that were experienced during those moments were actually excitement, which is most likely foreign to the vast majority of people that still play UO today. I do not play UO today because I can't stand the sight of it, but what I can envision is a game world that involves people ogling at each others in-game hat and waiting for their new shiny X that they can show off to their "friend(s)" tomorrow... You know what most accurately compares to that? Preschool.

I think people are misunderstanding what it meant to actually play UO... and I think that they will actually enjoy it if it ever comes back.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

Well, looking at that argument from a different perspective... What would Garriott have said otherwise? That he enjoys players killing each other and wants to see more? Or, maybe that he didn't care that people were killing each other? That would have been met with outrage from the community who, for the most part, did not enjoy being killed by another player and wanted to play UO as it is today which is a linear, lifeless, predictable shell of a game that does it's best to emulate something that it isn't. I think people are missing out on what UO could have been if the right minds were put to good use.

I think the fact that UO is what it is today is a perfect example of the extreme misconception of what UO was meant to be. I think it also shows why there are people like us who would like to see a change. The majority feel that "our" game was taken away from us, and we would like to see changes that made it what it was so many years ago. But, that argument has been made... let the chips fall where they may.

Furthermore, I don't quite understand why people are so afraid of the concept when there were so many people who enjoyed it in the past. Do they really think that there is no possible way that they could enjoy a game that involved something more than killing the same monster(s) over and over? Or a game that involved a situation where they actually had to run/escape from something besides a programmed AI? Think about it... have you ever watched a movie or a TV show that had a persuit in one form or another and not felt excitement? Did you not enjoy that feeling? What if YOU WERE the person chasing, or the person being chased? It would force you to actually think about what you were doing and item hoarding could come at a cost. Amazing, "thought", what a novel idea...

Think what you will of my comparisons, but it is true. The feelings that were experienced during those moments were actually excitement, which is most likely foreign to the vast majority of people that still play UO today. I do not play UO today because I can't stand the sight of it, but what I can envision is a game world that involves people ogling at each others in-game hat and waiting for their new shiny X that they can show off to their "friend(s)" tomorrow... You know what most accurately compares to that? Preschool.

I think people are misunderstanding what it meant to actually play UO... and I think that they will actually enjoy it if it ever comes back.

I play in Fel. Not primarily, but I do play there. I go to champ spawns, I (try to) PVP, and I know that it is still fun and it is still exciting. Do I get tired of playing UO from time to time? Sure do. So I take a break and come back, and it's fun again. I did play before AoS and I see the differences, but all games change in time. That is what happens in every game today... things just change. I will take Garriot's word that he honestly didn't expect to see player killing, and I don't believe he ever said anything negative about it except for being surprised. He neither condoned it or condemned it.
While making a classic shard would benefit UO, if we just went back to what UO was in the old day, many people would quit. Trammel has kept players, it has brought it new players, but we have also lost players due to it. You can't say that making a trammel hasn't had it's benefits. Just because players play around in Fel doesn't make them hoarders. Sure there are some, but I'm not even sure where your argument comes into play here about showing off my new shiney toy.
And, if you no longer play UO, why do you still post here? I'm guessing because you don't play, you don't pay for anything. So what value does your word have? Not much. A lot of players have played and loved this game for a long time, through it's ups and downs. That last thing UO needs is people stomping on it and saying what crap it's become when the new team is obviously making a effort to make a classic shard and give paying costumers new content.
What this thread is asking about is making stealing acceptable in the Trammel faucet, and many people are saying no because it goes against everything Tram is, not because they don't want to be stolen from imo. At least, that's why I said no. I have a theif, I play (get owned) with him in Fel, and I don't agree that I should be able to steal in the Tram faucet even if it would be easier. If I wanted to do that, I would go to Seige.

 

[canary]

That`s BS.

It's interesting how people want risk versus reward until they realize that they are at risk.

If you are a thief, you have consequences for your actions. Far too many people abused the lack of real consequences as an outlet for generally anti social behavior... so we had Trammel introduced.

I would wonder how many would actually want to play murderers or thieves if there was real potential for bad things to happen to you as a recourse for such actions. You know, time in Green Acres doing nothing for 48-72 hours if you were caught stealing, public executions (ie perma death) for murderers.

Would be very interesting how many of them would continue their behavior in game when faced with somehow more fitting punishments for their actions.

 

[copycon]

I'm going to try to break this up in some form, so here goes:

I play in Fel. Not primarily, but I do play there. I go to champ spawns, I (try to) PVP, and I know that it is still fun and it is still exciting. Do I get tired of playing UO from time to time? Sure do. So I take a break and come back, and it's fun again. I did play before AoS and I see the differences, but all games change in time. That is what happens in every game today... things just change.

I agree with you, change is needed. However, I think that the changes that were made were largely negative and literally removed a large part of what made UO unique and interesting.

I will take Garriot's word that he honestly didn't expect to see player killing, and I don't believe he ever said anything negative about it except for being surprised. He neither condoned it or condemned it.

That is your perspective, but I will say that it was written to calm the tides, and for no other reason. It is clear that certain elements of the game were introduced and/or modified with PvP in mind. For example, saying that he did not "expect players to kill each other" while placing a dueling pit in the center of a town is a bit contradictory. Or, even allowing players to damage each other at all to begin with.

While making a classic shard would benefit UO, if we just went back to what UO was in the old day, many people would quit. Trammel has kept players, it has brought it new players, but we have also lost players due to it. You can't say that making a trammel hasn't had it's benefits.

Agreed. It does have it's benefits. I think it would have been a bigger benefit if it had been made for the sole purpose of allowing players to hunt in a safe environment without causing a majority of active players to migrate from one facet to the other. That broke the gaming world apart and ultimately condemned Felucca.

Just because players play around in Fel doesn't make them hoarders. Sure there are some, but I'm not even sure where your argument comes into play here about showing off my new shiney toy.

I disagree with this. I think that the majority of players today are item hoarders. I think you also understand my "shiny toy" analogy, but are ignoring the reason. If you really don't, look at the majority of people who are "playing UO" right now. I think you would find that a majority have some sort of "rare", have a ludicrous amount of gold, and have a house packed to the gills with items and most of which they will never use in this lifetime.

And, if you no longer play UO, why do you still post here? I'm guessing because you don't play, you don't pay for anything. So what value does your word have? Not much. A lot of players have played and loved this game for a long time, through it's ups and downs. That last thing UO needs is people stomping on it and saying what crap it's become when the new team is obviously making a effort to make a classic shard and give paying costumers new content.

Let me answer this in the form of a question. Do companies today only cater to their existing dwindling customer base? Or do they try and appeal to new/previous customers as well? The answer to these questions should provide the answer you are looking for.

What this thread is asking about is making stealing acceptable in the Trammel faucet, and many people are saying no because it goes against everything Tram is, not because they don't want to be stolen from imo. At least, that's why I said no. I have a theif, I play (get owned) with him in Fel, and I don't agree that I should be able to steal in the Tram faucet even if it would be easier. If I wanted to do that, I would go to Seige.

Seige is not the same and was never designed to replace. You already know that if you played pre-AoS.

 

[copycon]

It's interesting how people want risk versus reward until they realize that they are at risk.

If you are a thief, you have consequences for your actions. Far too many people abused the lack of real consequences as an outlet for generally anti social behavior... so we had Trammel introduced.

I would wonder how many would actually want to play murderers or thieves if there was real potential for bad things to happen to you as a recourse for such actions. You know, time in Green Acres doing nothing for 48-72 hours if you were caught stealing, public executions (ie perma death) for murderers.

Would be very interesting how many of them would continue their behavior in game when faced with somehow more fitting punishments for their actions.

Stealing was "nerfed" to allow the item that was stolen to immediately return to the players inventory upon death of the thief. What is the problem with that?

Also, please explain how stat loss is not fitting punishment for a murderer?

 

[Extra Value Meal]

All kidding aside, still not sure why they disallowed looting of decayed corpses when they go to bones. Stupidest change ever.

Edit - After reading above, can UO possibly afford to have less players?

 

[Old Man of UO]

... Let me answer this in the form of a question. Do companies today only cater to their existing dwindling customer base? Or do they try and appeal to new/previous customers as well? The answer to these questions should provide the answer you are looking for. ...

Let me address just this statement. The rule of thumb is that it costs ten times as much to get new customers or to bring back old ones who have left. Dollar for Dollar, it is better to keep your current customers happy than to concentrate on getting new customers.

Sure, new customers are needed to expand your business, but keeping the current customer base happy should always take a higher priority than trying to get new customers.

 

[copycon]

Let me address just this statement. The rule of thumb is that it costs ten times as much to get new customers or to bring back old ones who have left. Dollar for Dollar, it is better to keep your current customers happy than to concentrate on getting new customers.

Please don't try to analyze true costs. None of us know the truth to the matter, so we should stop trying to speculate and avoid bringing it into the conversation.

To address the statement though, I don't understand the "rule of thumb" if EA has an existing IP and a team of developers who are already on the payroll. Heck, I can name a hand full of people who may very well openly volunteer for the opportunity to develop, and who already do so on the basis of receiving donations. Aside from hardware costs, I don't see the logic behind the argument.

Sure, new customers are needed to expand your business, but keeping the current customer base happy should always take a higher priority than trying to get new customers.

Some people need new content to remain interested, true. However, that should not deter from appealing to other audiences.

 

[Adol]

It's interesting how people want risk versus reward until they realize that they are at risk.

....

Would be very interesting how many of them would continue their behavior in game when faced with somehow more fitting punishments for their actions.

Oh it's better than that; they claim they hate item collecting, but what they really mean is they hate the idea of people being able to collect items that they can't then have stolen from them. It's not even about the items themselves, they just want you to want something, and then lose it so you feel upset and they feel the joy of bullying and reducing someone.

Reasonable PvP players long ago adapted to Trammel, because they understand it wasn't a zero sum game; but people like the above, who have been wasting their lives for over a decade now can only feel like they are winning if someone else loses. Trammel players for all their claims don't hate PvPers, they just don't want to be forced into playing it. What they hate are people who hate them for getting on with their fellow man, make no bones about it, and try to demand they be made victims of to please these sociopaths.

And even the arguments used to make that demand are bogus; you pointed one of the outright deceptions out. Let me point out another, at least 7 years after I know I first made it myself about Shadowbane, which was then also going to be a UO killer... All but one of those games mentioned have not only less total players than Ultima Online still has but even EvE Online, the big free-PvP champion (which claims more total accounts, but many of them are not unique and are paid for by in game ISK... the highest simultaneous logins was 60,453) has a large PvM player base which never ventures into Low Security systems, because they like playing what is basically a MMO version of Frontier: Elite II (It even filches the same text font). I can name a few players who do exactly that... they mine and chat and occasionally do high level NPC missions. And we all know the plural of "anecdote" is "data" don't we?

Meanwhile WoW trounces the competition almost combined, a game which is even more item based, and entirely consensual PvP. The "You take the risk, I'll have your reward" crowd never were, and never will be the majority of any game or gaming environment. And they know it. Which is why they keep demanding that the first game out of the stables, before all of those lessons were learned, go back to the days when the imbalance of power was accidentally stacked in their favour. Without "Nanny EA" holding their hands, and helping kick people when they are down, they don't get to feel like they are "hardcore" any more...

... which doesn't mean I don't think there shouldn't be a "Classic" shard for those of you who understand the world has changed, but just want a little voluntary nostalgia for yourselves. But we all know that's not what this thread, and an awful lot of the last wasted 10 years have been pining for. And they will continue to be disappointed until the day they die, and with good reason.

 

[copycon]

Oh it's better than that; they claim they hate item collecting, but what they really mean is they hate the idea of people being able to collect items that they can't then have stolen from them. It's not even about the items themselves, they just want you to want something, and then lose it so you feel upset and they feel the joy of bullying and reducing someone.

Reasonable PvP players long ago adapted to Trammel, because they understand it wasn't a zero sum game; but people like the above, who have been wasting their lives for over a decade now can only feel like they are winning if someone else loses. Trammel players for all their claims don't hate PvPers, they just don't want to be forced into playing it. What they hate are people who hate them for getting on with their fellow man, make no bones about it, and try to demand they be made victims of to please these sociopaths.

And even the arguments used to make that demand are bogus; you pointed one of the outright deceptions out. Let me point out another, at least 7 years after I know I first made it myself about Shadowbane, which was then also going to be a UO killer... All but one of those games mentioned have not only less total players than Ultima Online still has but even EvE Online, the big free-PvP champion (which claims more total accounts, but many of them are not unique and are paid for by in game ISK... the highest simultaneous logins was 60,453) has a large PvM player base which never ventures into Low Security systems, because they like playing what is basically a MMO version of Frontier: Elite II (It even filches the same text font). I can name a few players who do exactly that... they mine and chat and occasionally do high level NPC missions. And we all know the plural of "anecdote" is "data" don't we?

Meanwhile WoW trounces the competition almost combined, a game which is even more item based, and entirely consensual PvP. The "You take the risk, I'll have your reward" crowd never were, and never will be the majority of any game or gaming environment. And they know it. Which is why they keep demanding that the first game out of the stables, before all of those lessons were learned, go back to the days when the imbalance of power was accidentally stacked in their favour. Without "Nanny EA" holding their hands, and helping kick people when they are down, they don't get to feel like they are "hardcore" any more...

... which doesn't mean I don't think there shouldn't be a "Classic" shard for those of you who understand the world has changed, but just want a little voluntary nostalgia for yourselves. But we all know that's not what this thread, and an awful lot of the last wasted 10 years have been pining for. And they will continue to be disappointed until the day they die, and with good reason.

Adol, I'm going to try and make something very clear to you. The point that we've been trying to make is that UO was never intended to be about item collecting to us. Also, it was and is possible to "get along" with someone without Trammel. Thieves had friends, Murderers had friends, Anti-PKs had friends, nearly every subset of play style that I can think of had friends and weren't necessarily sociopaths as you describe. They were merely villians in a game that involved a struggle between good and evil of which there is now none. Please read the blog post in my signature to understand.

The rest of what you said has no merit, so I'm not going to bother responding.

 

[canary]

Adol, I'm going to try and make something very clear to you. The point that we've been trying to make is that UO was never intended to be about item collecting to us.

If you read anything by the original designers, it was also not about rampant anti social behavior, which it quickly devolved into. They admit that the initial social experiment was a failure when they could not control those who anonymously (IRL) logged in just for the simple ability to ruin another player's gaming experience.

I have no problem with those who role play bad guys. But please spare me the ones who prey upon others intentionally to get a kick out of it and then say 'but I play a villain in game' as if that absolves them out of their behavior. It isn't the same.

The rules currently stand because of those who could not control their rampant, childish behavior in game. And because of those people, things are not going to change.

I find it funny that those pining for the 'old days' of stealing and killing easily gloss over the fact that the people who created UO also admit they were wrong making it as they did.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

And, if you no longer play UO, why do you still post here? I'm guessing because you don't play, you don't pay for anything. So what value does your word have? Not much. A lot of players have played and loved this game for a long time, through it's ups and downs. That last thing UO needs is people stomping on it and saying what crap it's become when the new team is obviously making a effort to make a classic shard and give paying costumers new content.

Let me answer this in the form of a question. Do companies today only cater to their existing dwindling customer base? Or do they try and appeal to new/previous customers as well? The answer to these questions should provide the answer you are looking for.

What this thread is asking about is making stealing acceptable in the Trammel faucet, and many people are saying no because it goes against everything Tram is, not because they don't want to be stolen from imo. At least, that's why I said no. I have a theif, I play (get owned) with him in Fel, and I don't agree that I should be able to steal in the Tram faucet even if it would be easier. If I wanted to do that, I would go to Seige.

Seige is not the same and was never designed to replace. You already know that if you played pre-AoS.

For the first thing you've said, I think you and I both know the answer in terms of EA's standpoint. They have been catering to the existing base that has stuck around. Kingdom Reborn received... no ads. Stygian Abyss received... no ads. If you are not paying for an account, you have really no say. If the old players were actually being heard, I think we would have had a Classic Shard by now, but obviously it's been pretty ignored except for Cal saying "you'll have an answer by the end of summer". Here we are in Fall, quickly trickling (at least here in Korea, I dunno how it's looking over there) into winter.
Think it's going to happen?
I'm not sure. I will bet the same amount of money I did for the "3rd party detection system" they claimed they made: Zero.
As for playing Pre-AoS, I did, but I stuck mostly to Moonglow with the small group of friends, back when it was expected to mostly stick to one town. I was very young back then and didn't know what the game was about. I never claimed that Seige was a replacement for Pre-AoS, what i was saying was that if I wanted to steal in Tram, I would go to Seige to do that. But there is a reason why no one plays on Seige... because being stolen from and ganked 24/7 and training for nothing isn't fun. It failed in Seige... it'll fail if stealing is implemented in Tram. This is not an idea, in my opinion, the Dev's would ever consider. It goes against the reasons Tram was made in the first place.

 

[copycon]

If you read anything by the original designers, it was also not about rampant anti social behavior, which it quickly devolved into. They admit that the initial social experiment was a failure when they could not control those who anonymously (IRL) logged in just for the simple ability to ruin another player's gaming experience.

I have no problem with those who role play bad guys. But please spare me the ones who prey upon others intentionally to get a kick out of it and then say 'but I play a villain in game' as if that absolves them out of their behavior. It isn't the same.

The rules currently stand because of those who could not control their rampant, childish behavior in game. And because of those people, things are not going to change.

I can see that you are determined will not be easily convinced otherwise.

Let me reiterate, "rampant anti social behavior" is a harse word to use for what UO was in the past. It was not antisocial by any means. Some people may be convinced of that, and they would be wrong. There was always a social aspect to UO for every play style (good or evil).

<Joke>Granted, some of that "socialization" may have happened on black and white (me included)</Joke>

Also, "rampant childish behavior"? Really? Do you mean to say that children do not play UO today and act childish because of the rule changes? Because they do. I can assure you. The changing of the rules merely meant that they could do it safely.

 

[canary]

Here we are in Fall, quickly trickling (at least here in Korea, I dunno how it's looking over there) into winter.

Well, to be honest it was 'end of the year', but I guarantee Cal will dangle that carrot to entice people as long as he can.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

If you read anything by the original designers, it was also not about rampant anti social behavior, which it quickly devolved into. They admit that the initial social experiment was a failure when they could not control those who anonymously (IRL) logged in just for the simple ability to ruin another player's gaming experience.

I have no problem with those who role play bad guys. But please spare me the ones who prey upon others intentionally to get a kick out of it and then say 'but I play a villain in game' as if that absolves them out of their behavior. It isn't the same.

The rules currently stand because of those who could not control their rampant, childish behavior in game. And because of those people, things are not going to change.

I find it funny that those pining for the 'old days' of stealing and killing easily gloss over the fact that the people who created UO also admit they were wrong making it as they did.

That is way closer to the Garriot quote than what I said, and I still stand firm that I believe he was being honest in that statement, not just pleasing people.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

Well, to be honest it was 'end of the year', but I guarantee Cal will dangle that carrot to entice people as long as he can.

Opps! I thought he said the end of summer... =[ Sorry about that. Was the end of summer thing something else then?

 

[copycon]

For the first thing you've said, I think you and I both know the answer in terms of EA's standpoint. They have been catering to the existing base that has stuck around. Kingdom Reborn received... no ads. Stygian Abyss received... no ads. If you are not paying for an account, you have really no say. If the old players were actually being heard, I think we would have had a Classic Shard by now, but obviously it's been pretty ignored except for Cal saying "you'll have an answer by the end of summer". Here we are in Fall, quickly trickling (at least here in Korea, I dunno how it's looking over there) into winter.
Think it's going to happen?
I'm not sure. I will bet the same amount of money I did for the "3rd party detection system" they claimed they made: Zero.

No, I don't, but I can hope. My reasons are my own, but let me summarize by saying that I don't think they want to support it anymore. I think EA decision makers will come to the conclusion that UO in the MMO space is not a sound long-term investment and they will continue on the path that they are on until it is no more. It has nothing to do with me or anyone else's opinion.

As for playing Pre-AoS, I did, but I stuck mostly to Moonglow with the small group of friends, back when it was expected to mostly stick to one town. I was very young back then and didn't know what the game was about. I never claimed that Seige was a replacement for Pre-AoS, what i was saying was that if I wanted to steal in Tram, I would go to Seige to do that. But there is a reason why no one plays on Seige... because being stolen from and ganked 24/7 and training for nothing isn't fun. It failed in Seige... it'll fail if stealing is implemented in Tram. This is not an idea, in my opinion, the Dev's would ever consider. It goes against the reasons Tram was made in the first place.

I won't pretend to know why Seige is failing, but what I have read seem to have something to do with "lack of attention", or something... I don't know, I joined Seige a long time ago when there was hero/evil which was a great time, and then it was wiped and I never went back.

 

[canary]

I can see that you are determined will not be easily convinced otherwise.

Let me reiterate, "rampant anti social behavior" is a harse word to use for what UO was in the past. It was not antisocial by any means. Some people may be convinced of that, and they would be wrong. There was always a social aspect to UO for every play style (good or evil).

Also, "rampant childish behavior"? Really? Do you mean to say that children do not play UO today and act childish because of the rule changes? Because they do. I can assure you. The changing of the rules merely meant that they could do it safely.

And I won't be convinced by you because, as I clearly stated, the original development team has said UO was a social failure for its easy griefing tactics in regards to cheating, stealing and killing. So you are wrong in what you feel UO was made for.

Logging in merely to hamper others enjoyment by wantonly killing them or stealing from them is indeed 'anti social' behavior. It is merely that you lack the understanding of what 'anti social behavior' means. Here, let me help you: Anti-social behaviour (with or without hyphen) is behaviour that lacks consideration for others and that may cause damage to society, whether intentionally or through negligence, as opposed to pro-social behaviour, behaviour that helps or benefits society (Berger 2003, p. 302).

I will not argue that you will still find people in game that are childish and attempt to, at times, ruin the game play of others. But yes, Trammel was created to assist in curtailing what was seen as the biggest obstacles to ensure making UO a game accessible (and fun) to a larger player base.

In other words: Trammel was created because the majority of paying players were not enjoying their gaming experience due to the game mechanics of pk'ing and thievery. Listen, I enjoy the challenge of RPvP. I don't mind travelling to Fel. But I understand that, historically, those who lived off of making other players not enjoy themselves have no one to blame but themselves for where UO is today... and it simply won't go back.

 

[copycon]

And I won't be convinced by you because, as I clearly stated, the original development team has said UO was a social failure for its easy griefing tactics in regards to cheating, stealing and killing. So you are wrong in what you feel UO was made for.

Logging in merely to hamper others enjoyment by wantonly killing them or stealing from them is indeed 'anti social' behavior. It is merely that you lack the understanding of what 'anti social behavior' means. Here, let me help you: Anti-social behaviour (with or without hyphen) is behaviour that lacks consideration for others and that may cause damage to society, whether intentionally or through negligence, as opposed to pro-social behaviour, behaviour that helps or benefits society (Berger 2003, p. 302).

I will not argue that you will still find people in game that are childish and attempt to, at times, ruin the game play of others. But yes, Trammel was created to assist in curtailing what was seen as the biggest obstacles to ensure making UO a game accessible (and fun) to a larger player base.

In other words: Trammel was created because the majority of paying players were not enjoying their gaming experience due to the game mechanics of pk'ing and thievery. Listen, I enjoy the challenge of RPvP. I don't mind travelling to Fel. But I understand that, historically, those who lived off of making other players not enjoy themselves have no one to blame but themselves for where UO is today... and it simply won't go back.

Canary, I'd be interested to debate these subjects with you elsewhere. I don't think this is the place because we will be going wildly off topic (as we have already).

 

[Coppelia]

No need for a wall of text.
Guild wars allow you to steal and PvP in Trammel. It has always been like that.
But when I see players go red in Felucca because they are unable to use guild wars properly, I have no doubt that UO players are particularily stubborn and that won't change with the age.

 

[Connor_Graham]

What this thread is asking about is........the Trammel faucet

Are you trying to say Tram is a gold sink........?

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

ROFL at this thread.

*goes back to macroing detect hidden on his server that doesn't have Trammel (and isn't Siege)*...la