Thieving in Trammel.

[kelmo]

You keep terming people who play in fel "trammies". You do realize that "trammy" implies that the player only play in tram rule sets, right?

I dare him to call me a trammie... *stares*

 

[phantus]

king fisher, you are bursting with trammy stuff, not possibilities.

You are seeking some kind of compromise, while I want drastic changes to be made.

you just say 'ok we can`t steal in tram, and there`s nothing to steal in fel, so make Thieving a trammy profession like the others, so we can hunt for tagets/deco items/purpe cusidhes that breath rainbows/iguanas-on-stick.

Nut up and play Siege or keep to the free shards. UO only exists because of housing, not because of trammel or fel or pvp or pvm. People have over a decade worth of stuff and memories and some still have some friends that haven't moved on to bigger and better games. Join the crowd advocating for a classic shard and quit trolling us with this garbage.

 

[WhityJinn]

trammy is everyone who agrees that trammel, insurance is good, that UO now as it is is fine.

Opposite to Trammies are hardcore players, who are able to play a classic/pre-aos server without whining and complaining, simply because they accept all aspects of the gameplay and know how to deal with murderers/thieves/looters/etc.

Many of them right now are playing on pre-aos free shards, others have quit.

I know that many players don`t care about those people and that kind of gameplay.

But I do care about those people.Either RPers or not, I`ve seen what are they capable of, what they can do on a classic shard.All those amazing scenarios, pvp or non-pvp related.I`ve seen nothing like these here.Just some guys running around farming essences and lol'ing at luna bank.

Don`t you understand what made old UO perfect?And that now it is gone?I wouldnt mind if it was still there, i`d play even if I was forced to wear a pink dress and sandals at all times.

But it`s gone, and all that is left is guys farming essences and filling their castles with more and more neon-colored crap.Ad infinitum, tho I doubt anyone would let them do it for that long.


__
kelmo, I told you, I quit Siege because I was wandering everywhere for days and saw no trace of living beings.Only monsters and town shopkeepers.

Now, I know there are people on siege.Maybe 20-60 at all times online.Maybe 20 of them really play only one account at a time, who knows.

But when I go out I don`t see anyone.So that`s why I moved to Atlantic.

Siege is worthless to me if there are 60 people running god knows where, but not where I walk.

 

[kelmo]

Trammel exsists for a reason. It pays the bills so we PvPers can play. *winks*

 

[[King_Fisher]]

No im saying steal in fel but make it more worthwhile than grabing a fistfull of potions or bandies and then have no need for them. Trading them in to a Npc Fence for points would be more useful then me just chewing apples as I run away. Make it so that the items handed in that must be stolen from players makes them more difficult to get. This also makes it more profitable for stealing pot/apples/bandies/powerscrolls. If you want drastic change for thieving make the ammount of items insurable in fel limited.

Stealing from players in Tram will never likely happen. Could you imagine the influx of thieves? I myself would just circle Luna for victims. Maybe put some items for sale on vendors at low prices to chum the waters and steal it all back.

It's too easy.

 

[kelmo]

Trammel is good. So is insurance. Look who pays the bills.

 

[hen]

Trammel is good. So is insurance. Look who pays the bills.

Too far Kelmo, too far.

 

[kelmo]

It is the truth.

 

[[King_Fisher]]

The PvM'ers of Trammel pay the bills. The hoarders and collectors pay the bills. The PvPers, Murderers and Thieves pay the bills.

Leave Trammel as it is, people are happy there. Trying to remove the safety of trammel is like trying to swim up up a lava chute. Ain't gonna happen.

Fel could be tweaked somewhat to the days of old, to remove its safety/security. This is a fine dream but again unlikely.

Compromising maybe the only route to take for the changes required to be made.

 

[Old Man of UO]

I hear that you can steal from anyone on Siege and Mugen. That should make you happy.

 

[Ashlynn_L]

No im saying steal in fel but make it more worthwhile than grabing a fistfull of potions or bandies and then have no need for them. Trading them in to a Npc Fence for points would be more useful then me just chewing apples as I run away. Make it so that the items handed in that must be stolen from players makes them more difficult to get. This also makes it more profitable for stealing pot/apples/bandies/powerscrolls. If you want drastic change for thieving make the ammount of items insurable in fel limited.

I really like that idea. If you could only trade in items that you had stolen from other players for the points. An addition like that can only add to a struggling "profession", right?
My only concern is what you do to stop say, me making a thief, getting a friend to buy lots of items, then I just steal it all and then go trade it in. And repeat.

 

[kelmo]

Hello! I am a Siege player. I could not play Siege if thousands of you other players were not playing where ever it is you play.

If UO depended upon Siege subscriptions, we would have been done years ago.

Trammel saved this game. I know it and you know it. Trammel allows Fel and Siege to survive. If you believe otherwise you are a fool.

Trammel pays the bills.

 

[[King_Fisher]]

I hear that you can steal from anyone on Siege and Mugen. That should make you happy.

Why should thieves have to stay localized to two dead shards to just be able to steal from players?

Maybe tamers should move to legends and balhae to tame dragons and Cu's.

Doesn't seem sensible.

 

[[King_Fisher]]

No im saying steal in fel but make it more worthwhile than grabing a fistfull of potions or bandies and then have no need for them. Trading them in to a Npc Fence for points would be more useful then me just chewing apples as I run away. Make it so that the items handed in that must be stolen from players makes them more difficult to get. This also makes it more profitable for stealing pot/apples/bandies/powerscrolls. If you want drastic change for thieving make the ammount of items insurable in fel limited.

I really like that idea. If you could only trade in items that you had stolen from other players for the points. An addition like that can only add to a struggling "profession", right?
My only concern is what you do to stop say, me making a thief, getting a friend to buy lots of items, then I just steal it all and then go trade it in. And repeat.

Timer on stolen goods? Maximum allowable ammount per-day? Different person per stolen item? All of the above? any ideas?

 

[kelmo]

Why should thieves have to stay localized to two dead shards to just be able to steal from players?

Maybe tamers should move to legends and balhae to tame dragons and Cu's.

Doesn't seem sensible.

Stealing is useful on any shard and facet. If you want to PvP, well play Fel or Siege.

 

[kelmo]

Stealing from a player is PvP. Get that.

 

[[King_Fisher]]

Stealing is useful on any shard and facet. If you want to PvP, well play Fel or Siege.

I'd say I play tram and fel roughly 60/40. I went on Siege ran around but didn't find anyone. The shard didn't appear to be very active so I left. I return maybe once a month but it can't hold my attention.

I enjoy player to player interaction be it positive or negative. Siege just doesn't provide that kind of interaction in the ammounts I require.

 

[kelmo]

Do not get me wrong. This is not a Siege thread. This is a thread about allowing unconsentual PvP on any Trammel shard. That simply will never happen. For good reason.

Forcing a play style is just stupid. We have the choices.

 

[[King_Fisher]]

Kelmo I agree with you entirely. Im just testing the waters here to see if there are any possibile compromises that could be made.
I've said numerous times that tram will never lose its safety and security and I don't want it to change. I'm against the OP on that note, but im all for creating a system that adds to the profession.

 

[northwoodschopper]

so no one likes the idea of thieves guild players stealing from each other anywhere?

 

[Old Man of UO]

so no one likes the idea of thieves guild players stealing from each other anywhere?

What would be the point? My thief doesn't carry anything that would be worth stealing.

 

[kelmo]

so no one likes the idea of thieves guild players stealing from each other anywhere?

That idea deserves another thread. This one is about forcing a style of play upon others that do not wish it.

 

[WhityJinn]

Well, you forced a trammy style of play upon those who didnt want it.

 

[hen]

I'd say I play tram and fel roughly 60/40. I went on Siege ran around but didn't find anyone. The shard didn't appear to be very active so I left. I return maybe once a month but it can't hold my attention.

I enjoy player to player interaction be it positive or negative. Siege just doesn't provide that kind of interaction in the ammounts I require.

Siege was great, but it died sometime around AOS and SE. Griefers would run around in blessed anniversary gifts and the rp guilds whose gear was annihilated by AOS would go down in droves by a couple of wither spammers etc. The shard emptied real fast.
My time with the orcs on Siege was really fun until AOS came in.

 

[hen]

Well, you forced a trammy style of play upon those who didnt want it.

Three main groups forced Trammel. The Whiners (who would become Trammies), The PKs and the thieves. Within the whiner group was a large lobby for more housing space.
The solution worked to an extent. A limited extent, but it killed many communities and ended the 'Golden Age' of the game.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

There's already Thieving in Trammel, just not from players. Steal in trammel, whacked dead is next, that's the law of the land

 

[Dryzzid of Atlantic]

Stealing in Trammel wouldn't be fun. Stealing from smack talking 12 year old PvPs who fill Gen Chat with nonsense all day is fun. True story.

 

[WhityJinn]

stealing potions and bandages is fun?You just don`t get it then.

..wait O.O (reads Dryzzid`s title)

its some kind of rp right?stealing bandages.

 

[Llewen]

Three main groups forced Trammel. The Whiners (who would become Trammies), The PKs and the thieves. Within the whiner group was a large lobby for more housing space.
The solution worked to an extent. A limited extent, but it killed many communities and ended the 'Golden Age' of the game.

I'd have to mostly agree with this, which I find surprising...

stealing potions and bandages is fun?

Stealing consumables, etc. can actually be more than just a nuisance in a pvp setting. And then of course there is the ultimate prize, stealing scrolls at spawns.

 

[Viper09]

stealing potions and bandages is fun?You just don`t get it then.

..wait O.O (reads Dryzzid`s title)

its some kind of rp right?stealing bandages.

Sounds like someone never played a thief...or doesn't have the cajones to venture beyond Yew gate on one. If you did you'd discover the joys of champ spawn thieving. There is of course the wonders of infiltrating a trammel guild on a thief in a disguise kit. Of course you're also the one who believes trammel is force upon every player. Despite the existence of Siege and Fel where people refuse to play in trammel. Man up and pick one already.

 

[WhityJinn]

and in the past you could steal almost anything..anywhere.

now you gotta go stand like an idiot waiting until the pvmers finish the champ just to attempt to steal it and get a few mills (dunno the actual prices on PS`s).

Just don`t tell me that it`s fun and you gotta be a skilled thief to manage to snatch em scrolls.
But when there`s nothing else left to steal I guess thieves just learn to like it.Even if it is complete BS.

__

Viper, I honestly don`t freakin understand what are you sayin.Sounds like "I want to offend this unpleasant guy".
Got nothing to say on the subject?Don`t post, I don`t want to have a conversation with you.

 

[Viper09]

You don't understand my post? Let me summarize my very short paragraph...

-Steal scrolls in champ spawn, takes some skill but pays off. Trust me, if the guild is good you wont be standing in one spot.
-Infiltrate a trammel guild with a disguise kit = steal in trammel
-Don't want trammel play-style forced? Easy! Don't play in trammel. Pick fel or Siege and play there.

Easier? Wasn't trying to necessarily offend, just trying to mimic your attitude, lol.

 

[Taylor]

Stealing in Trammel wouldn't be fun. Stealing from smack talking 12 year old PvPs who fill Gen Chat with nonsense all day is fun. True story.

This.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

I started pre-Tram (1998) ... I chased and killed my share of thieves. I chose to not partake in PvP because of attitudes like you display. Arrogant, shove-it-Jack attitude makes for lousy teaching/guidance. It also is nearly certain your type of "teaching" was what cause Trammel to be in the first place - miner ganks to show them how to play.

BS - as Kelmo has stated ... Trammel is here to stay. And in the words of some Stratics folks on the pre-Tram boards ... suck it up or leave.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

No... just NO to this idea.

 

[five oclock]

kelmo = Trammy Just kidding my friend just kidding!

Ok seriously now..I SO wish Chad Sexington would post something to this..He/she made it clear that being a theif in todays nerfed world was possible and freaking fun!!!

OP do a search on him and his stories about fel...That alone hands down proved that being a thief is still possible and fun in this game..K

 

[Viper09]

kelmo = Trammy Just kidding my friend just kidding!

Ok seriously now..I SO wish Chad Sexington would post something to this..He/she made it clear that being a theif in todays nerfed world was possible and freaking fun!!!

OP do a search on him and his stories about fel...That alone hands down proved that being a thief is still possible and fun in this game..K

Being a thief is indeed still fun! A good guild doing a spawn can be intense for a good thief who knows the ropes. Of course you might want stealth for that otherwise you're immediately ganked or run off. A harrower is even more intense and in some cases almost impossible if the guild leaves immediately after spawn. Passive detect is one of the reasons and sometimes they even have detect. Biggest problem is all the people in one spot. Sometimes for harrowers the stragglers will still have scrolls. Spawns are a fun obstical course for a thief

Another good trick is finding people around luna who open gates to fel. I managed to pick the right one once and ended up in a house. Some guy was outside buying item bless deeds off their vendor and had REALLY good armor. Managed to steal one of those pieces of armor and sold it back for a high price

 

[WhityJinn]

I know Chad.

What he did proves nothing, I was doing the same for two years.

Tram sucks and needs a drastic change.Trammies will get used to being stolen from in Tram, they won`t leave because of their houses full of neon robes.

 

[Tazar]

Trammies will get used to being stolen from in Tram, they won`t leave because of their houses full of neon robes.

History has already proven you wrong... That's why Trammel exists.

 

[Llewen]

Trammies will get used to being stolen from in Tram...

No they won't because it's never going to happen, absolutely never, unless it is something like what Zyon suggested, in which case they still won't lose anything. As for what Trammel needs. Pirates? Sunken treasure? Trammel doesn't "need" those things, but they are coming, and it sounds like it will be great fun.

 

[Taylor]

so no one likes the idea of thieves guild players stealing from each other anywhere?

Thief's code, man. I don't steal from other thieves . . . you know, unless they really deserve it.

 

[Quilnn]

I believe Trammel should be demolish (Just my opinion and was not made to offend any mules rolleyes The reason why people played this game in the FIRST place, was the intensive pvp and risks you had to take, thus making you more aware of your surroundings. Nowadays, people walk around flashing their bright items worth 10 to 80m. This game is dying, people are quitting, because it has become too damn boring, no matter how many loyal players strive on here.

 

[Saunders]

Most people don't like to be on the lose side of a zero sum game.
Being stolen from in conditions where the thief is immune from reprisal is such a situation.
Indeed, most people (who, as Kelmo pointed out, with his customary insight, pay the bills) have voted with their feet not to be stolen from.

Fun for you, but not such a popular idea in practice.

 

[Shinobi]

Ok i had a few thoughts pop into my head while reading this.

First off, as said before, there already is stealing in trammel. Believe it or not, alot of trammel players (at least on atlantic) have become used to having their guilds infiltrated. They have started to adapt, and are developing ways to prevent these thieves from robbing their guild. Fallon Valor can back me up on this, noting the past instances between P0O and UWF. This adaptation proves that a form of PvP stealing CAN (and already does) exist in trammel without a mass amount of players quitting UO.

That being said, onto the suggestion.

As said by another poster, give thieves jail time in trammel. Allow stealing, but with the following consequences:

If you steal in trammel and are guard whacked, rather than just having the thief die, have him/her teleported (equivalent to being "squelched" by a GM) to the new town jail. When teleported, any uninsured/unblessed items the thief is carrying are placed in a box near the jail cell, freely lootable to all. The stolen item, upon guard whacking, is automatically returned to the victim (which already is the case if guard whacked). Also, allow teleporting to jail when killed in a guard zone by another player (when you steal you are freely attackable by all if you turn criminal).

FYI, a thief who attempts to steal at a crowded bank (even at 120 Stealing) has a very high chance of being noticed. If a thief turns grey (criminal) after attempting to steal in a guard zone, and an NPC (example: the minter) is a few tiles away, the NPC will automatically call guards, resulting in an insta-whack for the thief.

Here's where the fun comes in, especially for you roleplaying trammies. When a thief is thrown in jail he/she is automatically held for 24 hrs, in which time a trial by judge/jury must take place. A player recognized as a judge may sentence thieves to a maximum of one rl week in prison, depending on the severity of the theft.

This may seem like a stretch, but i assure you it isn't, considering i've already been brought before a UO player-run court, which of course was very biased and found me and my guildmate guilty. Afterwhich, we laughed, opened a gate to fel, and said, "Come get us." They followed, and we proceeded to kill them. I believe it was a large blacksmith guild on atlantic.

After being found inevitably guilty, the thief is teleported back to jail for the set amount of time. While in prison, a thief can still talk in all chats, but cannot recall, nor use the physically stuck help menu.

Player "guards" must keep watch, taking turns around the clock. A thief cannot lockpick the cell himself, but an outside thief can. If a thief is able to escape, then they must "lay low" for the remainder of their sentence. They are freely attackable until the sentence is over (which isn't much of a change since we're already freely lootable in trammel...which is ridiculous considering we aren't supposed to be able to steal from trammies, but they can loot us). If spotted in a town by an NPC, then guards will be called, automatically returning the thief to jail.

If another thief attempts to lockpick a cell, they will instantly turn criminal, allowing a nearby player-guard to click them and place them in jail as well, to await a court hearing.

Visitors, as well as onlookers, are allowed to visit thieves in jail. Maybe they'll even play a game of dice through the cell.

Thieves who attempt to steal in trammel will know of these consequences, and agree to them the moment they steal an item.

This court system would see old thieves returning, as well as a new group looking to be law-enforcers in UO. Thieves are happy, trammel players can exact revenge on thieves (rather than having to sit by and watch as their guild is infiltrated, robbed, then left by a thief looking to make a quick buck), and insurance is left alone...everyone wins.

To any nay-sayers, you can already be robbed in trammel without a thief having to worry about being guard whacked. If this idea is implemented, will you quit UO, or adapt? I think you'll adapt. And if you feel so strongly to seeing thieves punished, become a UO law-enforcer and send us to prison, guarded around the clock by other volunteers.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Ok i had a few thoughts pop into my head while reading this.

First off, as said before, there already is stealing in trammel. Believe it or not, alot of trammel players (at least on atlantic) have become used to having their guilds infiltrated. They have started to adapt, and are developing ways to prevent these thieves from robbing their guild. Fallon Valor can back me up on this, noting the past instances between P0O and UWF. This adaptation proves that a form of PvP stealing CAN (and already does) exist in trammel without a mass amount of players quitting UO.

That being said, onto the suggestion.

As said by another poster, give thieves jail time in trammel. Allow stealing, but with the following consequences:

If you steal in trammel and are guard whacked, rather than just having the thief die, have him/her teleported (equivalent to being "squelched" by a GM) to the new town jail. When teleported, any uninsured/unblessed items the thief is carrying are placed in a box near the jail cell, freely lootable to all. The stolen item, upon guard whacking, is automatically returned to the victim (which already is the case if guard whacked). Also, allow teleporting to jail when killed in a guard zone by another player (when you steal you are freely attackable by all if you turn criminal).

FYI, a thief who attempts to steal at a crowded bank (even at 120 Stealing) has a very high chance of being noticed. If a thief turns grey (criminal) after attempting to steal in a guard zone, and an NPC (example: the minter) is a few tiles away, the NPC will automatically call guards, resulting in an insta-whack for the thief.

Here's where the fun comes in, especially for you roleplaying trammies. When a thief is thrown in jail he/she is automatically held for 24 hrs, in which time a trial by judge/jury must take place. A player recognized as a judge may sentence thieves to a maximum of one rl week in prison, depending on the severity of the theft.

This may seem like a stretch, but i assure you it isn't, considering i've already been brought before a UO player-run court, which of course was very biased and found me and my guildmate guilty. Afterwhich, we laughed, opened a gate to fel, and said, "Come get us." They followed, and we proceeded to kill them. I believe it was a large blacksmith guild on atlantic.

After being found inevitably guilty, the thief is teleported back to jail for the set amount of time. While in prison, a thief can still talk in all chats, but cannot recall, nor use the physically stuck help menu.

Player "guards" must keep watch, taking turns around the clock. A thief cannot lockpick the cell himself, but an outside thief can. If a thief is able to escape, then they must "lay low" for the remainder of their sentence. They are freely attackable until the sentence is over (which isn't much of a change since we're already freely lootable in trammel...which is ridiculous considering we aren't supposed to be able to steal from trammies, but they can loot us). If spotted in a town by an NPC, then guards will be called, automatically returning the thief to jail.

If another thief attempts to lockpick a cell, they will instantly turn criminal, allowing a nearby player-guard to click them and place them in jail as well, to await a court hearing.

Visitors, as well as onlookers, are allowed to visit thieves in jail. Maybe they'll even play a game of dice through the cell.

Thieves who attempt to steal in trammel will know of these consequences, and agree to them the moment they steal an item.

This court system would see old thieves returning, as well as a new group looking to be law-enforcers in UO. Thieves are happy, trammel players can exact revenge on thieves (rather than having to sit by and watch as their guild is infiltrated, robbed, then left by a thief looking to make a quick buck), and insurance is left alone...everyone wins.

To any nay-sayers, you can already be robbed in trammel without a thief having to worry about being guard whacked. If this idea is implemented, will you quit UO, or adapt? I think you'll adapt. And if you feel so strongly to seeing thieves punished, become a UO law-enforcer and send us to prison, guarded around the clock by other volunteers.

That's not a bad idea, generally speaking. A few details might need to be worked out.

The real problem is that there's no middle ground for most players. They won't accept this. Some won't accept a successful theft at all.
But the bigger problem, no matter what "justice" system is used, is that the thieves and PKers, those who perform "criminal acts" in game, won't accept the middle ground either. They don't want to face a punishment. They want to be right back out there doing it again in five minutes, even if they were caught.

 

[Aibal]

Tram sucks and needs a drastic change.Trammies will get used to being stolen from in Tram, they won`t leave because of their houses full of neon robes.

Tram sucks for YOU, not for the vast majority of other people that reside there. Trammies will not get used to being stolen from, and it will NOT happen. Ply your trade in Fel. Tram will NOT have stealing in it...deal with it. Your whole rant is the lamest troll I've seen in a while.rolleyes:

 

[WhityJinn]

Shinobi, you are crazy.Dont you see they just DONT WANT TO BE BOTHERED in any way.And you propose player-run courts, guard-players at the cell, etc.

Who the hell would do that?All they want to do is farm neon robes without any risk of losing anything.They don`t want to DO something that is harder than hitting summon energy vortex/Enemy of One - macro.

So what you say really makes even less sense than what I say.

You still want to find some kind of compromise, you say OK, we are gonna be able to steal, but id we get caught we suffer a very hard punishment (10 hours, 24 hours, a week, u name it) in prison, so for that time we spend in prison trammies don`t get to worry about being stolen from.

That`s BS.

 

[Shinobi]

They don't want to face a punishment. They want to be right back out there doing it again in five minutes, even if they were caught.

Please send me to jail for a week, lol.

"Where's shinobi, haven't seen him lately."

"Oh, didn't you hear? He got thrown in the joint again."

 

[Shinobi]

Shinobi, you are crazy.Dont you see they just DONT WANT TO BE BOTHERED in any way.And you propose player-run courts, guard-players at the cell, etc.

Who the hell would do that?All they want to do is farm neon robes without any risk of losing anything.They don`t want to DO something that is harder than hitting summon energy vortex/Enemy of One - macro.

So what you say really makes even less sense than what I say.

You still want to find some kind of compromise, you say OK, we are gonna be able to steal, but id we get caught we suffer a very hard punishment (10 hours, 24 hours, a week, u name it) in prison, so for that time we spend in prison trammies don`t get to worry about being stolen from.

That`s BS.

Risk vs. Reward.

Great reward, extreme risks. We could plot an escape, but if they want us to rot then we'd better have our cells watched 24/7 by volunteer guards. It'd liven things up a bit. The best bank sitters can now be the most useful guards. No more than like two guards at a time though. We can't have an entire crowd guarding us.

 

[Aibal]

Well, you forced a trammy style of play upon those who didnt want it.

Nothing is "forced" on you. You can steal to your heart's content in Fel.