So is it fair to say that faction runes have maximum offense and defense ability too? I mean by your logic of course.
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
Kelmo, we want it fair.........
Heres my logic and or idea....
If you have 120 ninja lets say, which smoke bombs are attached to right? and you have 100 Hide which is attached to Ninja as well as Stealth is attached to hide....IMO this would be perfect world fair for stealth
If a 120 Ninja and a 100 hide 75 stealther is out armor ignoring and pvping right....said toon gets into trouble and hits the smoke bomb.....I feel that he should have a 100% percent chance of sucsess of the smoke bomb usage when attached directly to his hide....so Bam,,,,said Toons smoke bomb goes off perfectly as intended because said skill points have been invested for it to work....Now when said Toon trys to stealth away after that....he should have like a 50% percent chance of failure to stealth because he only has 75 stealth....so he chooses to either stand in place and let said detector have a chance to utilize his ability to counter the hide/smoke bomb skill or chance walking away and being revealed and killed....or gain the SKILL as you say and earning your right at least for a 95% chance of sucsess....so we do agree on that....gain the damn skill
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Vaelix
Guest
120 Ninja/80 Stealth/100 Hide will net a 36 Damage Deathstrike, which can be Bumped up to a 46-48 Damage DS if used with Human (Free) Tracking.Yah ninja/hide/stealth can be offensive with the DS. But isn't that pretty well defended by not running?? Plus in order for that to be at maximum effectiveness wouldn't you would require using 120 ninja/100 hide/120 stealth along with 120 in a wep skill...i'm bad at calculations like this..Vaelix where are yah bud
Since you are a hide/stealth, you will of taken 50 Ninja for the Smoke bombs, so another 70 for an Even 120 isnt too bad, especially considering that Ninja is Subject to 2 Skill Modifiers (Hide/Stealth) For the Base of its abilities to be powerful, it fits perfectly, and is not subject to a Weapon Rules (Meaning No weapon Skill or Tactics is required, and can be used with a -Mage Weapon for even More Free Skill)
The real trick behind deathstrike (This is my Opinion, and actually has 2 "Tricks" depending on your template) Is the Fact that to counter it, people think.. "Dont Run" Well, From my perspective, this is exactly what i want you to do. (Unless im a 60 Damage Tracking DS, in which case I want the Opposite, for you to run)
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
Not even close.....neither player has a chance of dieing, one person is taken completly out of the fight and doesnt risk living or dieing...
The toon that still has the ability to stay in the fight with no chance of dieing has all the benifit of reward with nothing towards risk....faction runes BTW are something im not in favor of...but if somoene uses it to bolt...at least i stand no chance of dieing in the encounter because of its purpose....not the case with stealth
If people are breaking the ROC, then do your job and clean up the thread instead of destroying a good discussion.
the stealther has to invest 175-220 points for his escape trick but the faction guy gets a free escape with 0 points invested.
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
Well, if you see such a major decline in the pvp because of faction runes, then please champion the cause and start working on it...
were currently here working on the OP ability of the stealther which gains Maximum Offensive and defensive ablitly....
faction runes as i currently see it....is only 100 percent defensive ability for a factioneer and they are not being used for there intened purpose...but like i said....i havent seen a huge decline in pvp because of them...hell...if you wanna put a one hour timer on being able to stealth again like a faction rune,,,,hell...ill give that up for a nice trade off.....you act like a faction rune can be used over and over and over and over....once an hour and yer done....not stealth huh? u can walk and walk and walk and walk forever without a timer or failure....but take up the cause
kelmo
Old and in the way
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Fudd. you know many on this shard choose not to die. Yes. We know it happens. The stealthers are protecting them selves.
I am damn good at it.
Many on Siege are.
Look back over history. If you folks want to take the non PvPers out... Then you apply the final nail.
All that will be left is wolves.
I am damn good at it.
Many on Siege are.
Look back over history. If you folks want to take the non PvPers out... Then you apply the final nail.
All that will be left is wolves.
Detect is SUPPOSED to counter hiding.
It currently does not work as a counter.
Yep and if anyone asks, I'm pretty damn sure everyone would be up for asking the devs to no longer allow them to be purchased on Siege.
There's a lot of things wrong with Siege... What's your point? We shouldn't talk about this problem, because there's that problem too?
With a boost to monster loot, people won't be as easy to kill. If that's what we truly wanted, then we wouldn't have supported that too.
The PvPers want fun and fair PvP. The skills are not ok as is or these discussions wouldn't be taking place. The people arguing to keep things the way they are would be able to counter the points people asking for change are making. They have yet to counter even ONE issue that's been brought up.
If I really want to kill militant stealthers... I shouldn't have to become a stealther to effectively do it.
This is not supposed to be a shard full of just stealthers. Stealth tamers, stealth dismounters, stealth crafters, stealth detectors, stealth stealth stealth... like what the ****?
Dealing with an unbalanced game is frustrating. Has nothing to do with winning or losing, killing crafters or anything else. It has to do with what's fair and balanced.
Stealthers countering stealthers? Stealthers insisting on keeping things the way they are because they don't want to risk being pk'd more often? Stealthers lying about the detect timer and what's wrong with it?
What the hell?
Plenty of reasons have been given. The game mechanics of why it is over powered have been broken down for you. It's you're fault if you've skipped over them.
Let's be real here. You haven't skipped over them. No one has. No one has done anything but post lies (see kats post about the timer) or not addressed the issues brought up at all.
That's not gullible, that's deceitful.
You said you didn't support passive detect, but you supported fixing detect hidden so it actually countered stealthers.
Thanks for showing your true colors by not supporting fixing detect hidden. You don't give a crap about fixing anything... you want to keep your advantage and that's about it.
This thread is an idea to solve the stealth problem without using passive detect.
I personally would rather see passive detect put in than something like this, but I'm coming up with options to maybe address the problem in a different way.
John Connelly says he doesn't support passive detect, but wants the detect skill to be fixed. Well he then turns around and doesn't support fixing detect either. If this kind of crap continues, kiss your wish list of changes good bye.
This charade of manipulation and lying is hilarious. People like you and Kelmo claiming to be all about what's best for Siege really only care about what's best for you.
Like I said, if something about this stealth problem doesn't make its way into the wish list... then forget the support for boosting monster loot. We can all just agree that this shard will remain the same as it is right now.
Not one person here can deny how ineffective detect hidden/tracking is at countering stealthers. The only templates that use those skills successfully are stealthers. I really can't fathom how that doesn't seem off to anyone reading it.
Stealthers countering stealthers? Stealthers insisting on keeping things the way they are because they don't want to risk being pk'd more often? Stealthers lying about the detect timer and what's wrong with it?
What the hell?
It won't be as bad as you fear.
If you truly try to avoid pvp, then you have nothing to worry about.
If you are one of those stealthers who abuses this to combat other players... well you won't be abusing it any more.
I really wish you would know what passive detect is like and actually understand what it is you're talking about. Your whole outlook on this subject would change.
What's you're point? Are stealthers not allowed to join factions?
I think you're trying to make a completely different issue (that we all pretty much agree upon) into the same thing as this issue.
It's not.
Go champion the cause to stop being able to buy faction runes. Start a poll... I'm sure you get the support you hope for.
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
Did you read my post?
I want it to be fair
Here Kelmo please read this with an honest open mind
If you gain 50 ninja 100 hide and 75 stealth = 225 skill points
My point is you have been given a 100% chance of smoke bomb sucsess with those skills ...
In all fairness....you should be penalized in your sucsess chance of smoke bomb because you dont have the required skill....but right now you dont....
So now lets give you 120 ninja 50 hide and 75 stealth....your smoke bomb sucsess needs to be affected for the lack of the hide skill not being raised
So now lets give you 120 ninja and 100 hide and 75 stealth
now your sucsess chance of a smoke bomb is like 99% like everything else on siege....but since your only 75 stealth.....YOUR MOVEMENT IMMIDIATLY AFTER THE SMOKE BOMB should be subject to the same failure rate like a 50% chance of sucsess because you have not the invested skill points for succsess....right now..... the way it is currently....you have 100% sucsess
Now you have 120 ninja 100 hide 120 stealth....your smoke bomb sucsess 99% and your ability to stealth away is 99% also....im on board for something like this.....this is actually fair and just
Like you said.....Gain the damn skill
or if you dont want to gain the damn skill...or the devs dont want to make it mathmatically fair....at least put in passive detect.....why is this so hard to see it from a logical point of view...right now...stealthers have no real chance of failure.....PERIOD
I do support fixing the detect skill but your feeble attempt at a poll gives only two options, remove the timer or keep the timer as it is. I would be quite happy to see the timer set lower, but that wasn't an option. Try thinking about the middle road some time instead of working in extremes.
And by the way it seems that there is a two to one vote in favor of leaving detect as it is. I suppose others know how to use it properly. Maybe you should spend more time practicing instead of trying to change the game to suit yourself.
How about keeping a DOT spell on the stealther? there are a million ways to counter a stealther just spend more time planning and less time crying.
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
Please read my post to kelmo two posts above, there is no way in hell anyone can argue against that....what i said is fair for the skill being used,,,,its broken and been broken for a while...there is no crying., only logical discussion about something being completly out of balance, people here on siege actually just want it to stay on Easy mode....and thats exactly what it is....EASY MODE.....this is the hard shard....so make em earn there skill and points...if i choose to only run 90 tactics, my damage caculator is changed....if my bushido is 100 instead of 120 my defence chance calculator will change...if my parry, my anatomy, my eval, my focus or any other skill for that fact is lowered....my damage/sucsess caculator changes......
NOT SO WITH HIDING STEALTH NINJA AND SMOKE BOMBS....Hence easy mode...and its not hard to understand why the not so good Pvpers wanna keep it on easy mode...PvPers just wanna be given the chance and ability for a sucsesful kill based on ability and points invested...
At 80 poisoning you have a 100% chance to apply deadly poison, at 80 spirit speak you never fail. etc. etc. so should we nerf those skills too?
Now that's the best idea I've heard in this thread, you're one of the biggest reasons people don't pvp on this shard anymore, they're tired of fighting at a disadvantage against God like toons with overpowered blessed faction items. So this is a step in the right direction.
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
The rate of how often a DP goes off on yer opponant is affected and the amount of healing power as well as the strenght of your necro spells are affected my your SS so there is a balance affect in those,,,,so no....they shouldnt be nerfed....obviously you arnt very educated with UO these days....
Right now,,,,there is nothing more out of balance than what i explained....period...is there tweaks needing to be made? sure....but when your proven wrong with logical points you try and divert the topic to something else because you have no logical educated counter for my post....and im playing siege every damn day almost......
That's funny. No where does this poll ask if anyone's in favor of leaving things as they are.
Your bias is pretty clear. Thanks for coming out and saying you don't want things to change... even if it was subconsciously.
Also - the poll is pretty awesome. 90% of the no votes are by STEALTHERS. More than half the yes votes are by stealthers too. How many stealthers does Siege have? 80%?!?!?! I imagine such a high proportion of the population is using stealth because it's not over powered. No... people aren't that opportunistic.
Thanks again John.
Oh, by the way... if you're in full support of lowering the timer (by who knows how much), how much and why that much (break it down to how it will solve the issues highlighted). Shouldn't be too hard. I assume you've already thought this through... that is of course if you aren't here simply to derail changes to stealth.
I've poisoned several stealthers and they just stay hidden while poisoned.
Of course I was a mage and hit them with a low level poison, so someone who can DP will have to test it. Either way, your post was perfect on why even things like these are not enough.
According to the HOT forums...there really isnt many fights happening on ATl these days either
I don't know about the forums I don't read them because I'm normally busy playing... But anytime I feel like pvping all I have to do is walk out of the gate, or go raid spawns I always find several people to fight...
I logged on Siege about an hour ago... Yew-Empty, Luna-Empty, Spawns-Empty, I didn't see a single person... I guess everyone is to busy crying on the forums...
I logged on Siege about an hour ago... Yew-Empty, Luna-Empty, Spawns-Empty, I didn't see a single person... I guess everyone is to busy crying on the forums...
They are busy stealthing.
I havnt been around so long as to know when plate was the best armor you could have. But stealth was designed around heavy armor means more stealth skill to pass the check. Looks like theyve upgraded leather armor to be the best and left stealth to meet a "light armored" check. Maybe im wrong and you can/could stealth in full plate at 75 skill.
Stealth is not a problem on siege, siege has no population, that is the real problem here. So why not ban together and fix the real problem rather than worrying about some stealth. Get people to fight on siege again! The following post is the real reason you guys have no one to fight. So if you want to find the problem on siege then just take a good look in the mirror. Best Friends Forever!
These are the words of a person who runs around in a blessed suit that no one else can wear. You only have yourselves to blame.As far as not looting anything other than non imbued items and faction arties, I can pretty much tell you that the guild I'm in (BFF) will not agree to that. I will definitely not agree to that.
If you guys don't want to lose your items then don't leave your house
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
Your low level poison would probably do better than DP would in the long run. Damage has a chance of revealing a stealther, so the low level poison that ticks more often, would have more chances to reveal.
Removing the reuse timer would not be the way to balance detect vs stealth, not that I think that they are unbalanced. I remember what it was like when detect had no timer, it was anything but balanced.
Stealth is not a problem on siege, siege has no population, that is the real problem here. So why not ban together and fix the real problem rather than worrying about some stealth. Get people to fight on siege again! The following post is the real reason you guys have no one to fight. So if you want to find the problem on siege then just take a good look in the mirror. Best Friends Forever!
These are the words of a person who runs around in a blessed suit that no one else can wear. You only have yourselves to blame.As far as not looting anything other than non imbued items and faction arties, I can pretty much tell you that the guild I'm in (BFF) will not agree to that. I will definitely not agree to that.
If you guys don't want to lose your items then don't leave your house
Where did you get that quote from? I don't think I posted that in this thread... Did I?
I'm an equal opportunist looter. That means, I'll loot anyone's armor. I dont really give a damn if its regular leather or unblessed arties. If I don't need it/not worth selling back, I'll cut it up and put the leather beside your dead corpse.
Thanks for playing
FIFY
I manage to kill stealthers, so it must be possible with the skills/items in game. Some stealthers manage to get away, but it isn't because of the all powerful stealth. They get away because of their ability to run. I expect that if stealth is nerfed some way, running will be the next thing the BFF cheerleader is polling about.
Shay is designed to counter stealth, she is a "support" character mostly. Tracking allows me to know where any stealther is, this info is then passed on to anyone with me. Tracking takes away the stealther's main weapon, surprise, allowing me/us to plan for anything the stealther might do. Detect allows me/us to grab bars and forces the stealther to either hide again(and stealth around nearby), flee, or fight. Hiding means that the stealther has less than 10 seconds before an attack is coming, an attack that anyone with me is ready to perform at the moment I detect again. This will usually lead to the hide/flee/fight choice again, assuming they are alive. Fleeing, either visible or stealthed, usually results in a chase with me detecting them along the way. The chase, assuming no houses or moongates are nearby, almost always ends up with the stealther being visible. Assuming they do not get caught up on anything, this is usually when the stealther gets away. Or dies. Or turns to fight. If they chose to fight, there is no need for detect unless they hide again. Should that happen, then we're right back to the beginning with track/detect countering hide/stealth every step of the way.
I honestly can not see how anyone could say that track/detect needs a buff, or hide/stealth needs a nerf.
I agree with the smoke bomb issue, and i have said so in the past.
I don't agree with your solution entirely ( a different stealth check if hidden by bomb ), but I agree it should be based on more than Hiding.
Currently, you only need 50 Ninja to use them, and success rate is equal to hiding, which everyone runs 100.0.
I disagree with this formula. It allows people who half heartedly train in the art of Ninjitsu to fully benefit ( whereas stealth was indirectly affected by AOS and multiple resistances instead of a single AR score, making it okay to get by in leather and not needing full plate for maximum protection ).
To use smoke bombs effectively, I believe it should be based on all of these factors:
Hiding + Stealth + Ninjitsu + Dexterity / 500
So, for example: someone who was running:
100 hiding + 120 stealth + 120 Ninjitsu + 80 Dexterity / 500
They would have an 84% chance for the bomb to hide them, even with that much skill. There still remains a risk involved if using this method to escape.
If someone less disiplined in the art were to use the bomb, say, a stealth tamer:
100 Hiding + 75 stealth + 50 Ninjitsu + 30 Dexterity / 500
They would have only a 51% chance for the bomb to hide them.
A dex Assassin running :
100 hiding + 120 stealth + 120 Ninjitsu + 150 Dexterity / 500
Would have a 98% chance for the bomb to hide them.
Your average assassin would have:
100 hiding + 80 stealth + 120 Ninjitsu + 80 Dexterity / 500
76% Chance.
What all 100 of them? And Yew gate fighting doesn't count...
Or got tired of a ****ty game?
Your character is a stealther. A stealther countering stealthers. So it is possible to counter stealthers with a stealther.
Needing to be a stealther to effectively counter stealthers?
Thanks for trying to protect stealth. I'm sure it has nothing to do with you being a stealther and hunting down stealthers... on your stealther.
Draxous everything you post is 100% truth...the DEVS still don't give a ****...
Keep up the good fight...
Keep up the good fight...
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
This is why I really dont address Ru...I respect RU for running the template well...but by having to run the template in such an exact form to stealth to have to counter stealth and Yada Yada is bull****....it makes people have to run one template to counter everyone damn near on the shard...so lets get this right...in RU's world of stealthing....we will all run dismount archers/AI and another guild will run all detect tracking RU characters or visa versa...or some slight variations of course for everyone to have fun....now were forced to run a template to deal with an OP template??????? WOW
I see he didnt address my issue with smoke bomb stealth and gaining the skill to use it....OH NO...wouldnt do that...thats fair to stealth and smoke bomb...and if we need to add dex like knightstalker said....fine i dont care...im only stateting the **** is broke as hell by pure numbers alone....LOOK AT IT AGAIN....lol
Stealth counters the gank mentality that most of you play with. Doesn't matter what your template is, if you run into 3+ pvp players who are looking to kill someone, stealth is the only way to stop that.
Nerf multiple players running around together. Ban voice chat groups. Eliminate sync dumps, then I might say stealth is overpowered. Fricking whiners who want to kill other players and can;t figure out how to stop wittle stealthers. Poor babies...la
Nerf multiple players running around together. Ban voice chat groups. Eliminate sync dumps, then I might say stealth is overpowered. Fricking whiners who want to kill other players and can;t figure out how to stop wittle stealthers. Poor babies...la
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
@ Nightstalker
I was purley pointing out by numbers the way it is now is broke...im glad u had the time to point out exact figures....thats exactly what im talking about....if that sysytem with dex and skills like were both saying was in place...i wouldnt have near the problem with it....but damn....the way it is now...you have MORONS who no nothing about the game being able to survive and get cheap kill shots and gank like crazy at will with no risk of dieing.....thats bull**** IMO....so what happens is...you get a guild or guilds who are lets say better at fighthing....now the not so skilled guild goes....well.....we cant beat them really and we dont want to learn to fight anybetter....so lets all run stealth AI archer and just gank like crazy and if it looks like were dieing or outnumbered.....smoke bomb away and go home....in essence it forces people to stay in house and not fight....ITS OP AS HELL
I was purley pointing out by numbers the way it is now is broke...im glad u had the time to point out exact figures....thats exactly what im talking about....if that sysytem with dex and skills like were both saying was in place...i wouldnt have near the problem with it....but damn....the way it is now...you have MORONS who no nothing about the game being able to survive and get cheap kill shots and gank like crazy at will with no risk of dieing.....thats bull**** IMO....so what happens is...you get a guild or guilds who are lets say better at fighthing....now the not so skilled guild goes....well.....we cant beat them really and we dont want to learn to fight anybetter....so lets all run stealth AI archer and just gank like crazy and if it looks like were dieing or outnumbered.....smoke bomb away and go home....in essence it forces people to stay in house and not fight....ITS OP AS HELL
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
Address nightstalker and I's post about the stealth smoke bomb figures....and tell us by the numbers how its not broke....now i know you cant cause its in black and white....now gain the skill and quit abusing an OP skill or stfu......i know u cant address the issue at all....its impossible for you do so....so move along.....its broke....end of story,,,,,make it fair,,,,thats all were asking....wow....is that to tough for you to figure out?????
So somehow having 500 points tied up into getting away is unfair? What that leaves 225 points to kill a fully spec'd PvP template? If the stealther with 500 points tied up in escape can kill you, there is something really wrong, especially since most of you rarely run around the field without a crew.
Personally, I don't know why you all play on a server that isn't pre publish 16 anyway. No ninjas for me...la
Personally, I don't know why you all play on a server that isn't pre publish 16 anyway. No ninjas for me...la
Good. Hopefully we can convince the devs to look at the formula then? It would be really easy to implement, just need to change the code in one function.
Alot of people are complaining about the stealth skill being Over Powered without full point investment, as if they'd be okay with it if another 40 points were spent to get it to 120. They are crying nerf instead of trying to figure out a way to make the stealther WANT to invest the points.
If 120 stealth makes smoke bombs more effective, there's a little incentive to raise the skill. I'm sure we can find other incentives if we look hard enough.
The problem with stealth, as I mentioned before, is that it was based on pre AOS Armor Rating system, when there was just Physical resist, and GM Made Valorite Plate was top notch. While you would never be able to stealth in it, the system did force you to push the limits on what you would wear, while trying to maintain the highest AR possible and still stealth. You'd have full studded suits with a close helm, or even some chain mail pieces. It gave the incentive to GM stealth then, but since AOS, the resist system changed, and valorite plate was no more special than GM leather, in fact, it was less valuable, as you couldn't meditate through it.
A reworking of armors is what will be needed to make stealthers invest up to 120. If I had any say, my system would work like this:
Any metal armour cannot have any Energy resist, as Electricity and metal do not mix when it comes to body armor.
Leather armor wouldn't have any Physical resist, though it can protect you from other elements, keep you warm, etc...
Studded armor would give you an average, but would cap each resist.
Dragon scale armor would obviously give you superior fire protection, at the cost of its heavier weight.
To balance your resists, you'd have to wear a little of everything, and it would be very difficult to get to 70 in all. The weight of such a suit would cause the stealthers to WANT to get to 120.
Currently, the only incentive to go 120 is to pass detect hidden checks more often, and the player base hasn't given anyone incentive to raise the skill past 80, as only a few people run detect.
LOL
This is an MMORPG. These kinds of videogames promote player team work and cooperation. That goes for BOTH sides of the fence. Don't want to get ganged up on? Make some friends.
Want to play by yourself as the king of your world? Go play a single player game.
BTW - You're running out of ways to manipulate people into thinking stealth isn't over powered.
You think its fair that people are forced to join factions just to compete oon the same playing field as far as items and blessed items go but you think it's unfair that you have to invest points in a certain skill to counter another. WOW! Talk about being self centered and selfish.
News Flash...the sun does not rise and set on "Best Friends Forever" (BFF).
Dude.
I agree with most of what you say... but please keep this discussion practical. The devs aren't going to rework all that code just for our shard.
Your complete revamp of armor is not changing the code in just one function...
Passive detect will make stealthers WANT to invest the points into stealth...
But dude... trust me when I say this: please keep the suggestions coming. If you can come up with something that makes everyone happy and addresses the issue at hand... we'll support it.
News Flash... you don't have to be in factions to compete with faction gear. It's just really expensive too properly gear and people are too scared to use/lose those items.
We're currently even supporting a boost to monster loot so it's even more practical to compete with the slight advantages faction gear has over it's counter parts.
1. Reduce faction silver costs
2. Boost Monster Loot drops (Cursed Arties, Doom Arties, ML Arties, Tokuno Minors, Replica's, etc)
3. Address the stealth problem
And I even support boosting runic kits, peerless ingredients, imbuing ingrediets, etc. for crafters too... but the community will probably have to talk about it first.
You should really consider not acting childish right now. We want things to improve so they are fair and fun for everyone.
You trying to cling onto an advantage you hold dear to your heart isn't helping this shard or this community. The sheer volume of posts in this thread is enough to indicate how much of an issue stealth is. We will have something everyone can agree on to fix the problem or this shard will not be pushing to fix jack diddly and siege can just whither away as is.
I think DS gives more incentive than passing some detect hidden check.
Dude you really believe the crap that comes outta your mouth? Take a look in the mirror. What do you think is the biggest reason siege is as dead as it is right now? It sure as hell aint cuz of stealth. But i will bet the ranch that the faction blessed arties has a huge hand in it.
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