Trammies won? :(

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

there use to be two types of uo player, they were broken into those groups when trammel came to be, those that played, adventure, and fought in fel/ and those that camped at the bank, wanted a "safe" dungeon experience

, or socialized in tram.... why didnt they give anything to the fel players to make them feel loved too? i think all the patches, and changes for a long time now have been based around the crowd of trammies?, or malasites?, or Tokunians?, i dont know what to call them now that they have all those new lands to adventure.... can we please have some attention in Fel!!!..

and please dont say it isnt added to due to the lacking population, if that is the reason, please turn that statement around, it is a lacking population because of the lacking attention to players of that style...

[/ QUOTE ]


(replied to thread starter but not just aimed at this poster)

I get so sick of hearing this debate over and over again, I am a trammie however I do visit fel and take on the risks that go with that and I am also part of factions on Oceania as a thief. So I play both facets although I would not say I am a pvper as the bottom line is I know nothing about it and lack the skills to participate on any high level. But I do enjoy both tram and fel for different reasons.

What irks me most about this debate is that it is not a debate it is always some fel dweller attacking trammies and blaming them for all that is wrong with there play style. Why can you not write a post requesting changes without attempting to bash down another player style. Both are valid play styles in the game..if you do not like one play style play your own and focus on building it up with like minded people there is no reason to bash down everyone else for enjoying something different.

You would also find you may get more respect and acknowledgement from the Dev's for a well written anti inflammatory post. So you want more dungeons and locations for reds to access........ask for them but you do not have to start the thread by attacking trammies because they have something you do not.

 

[Guest]

The way I see it is if you don't like "Trammies" then go fel and you won't have to worry about them!

 

[Dean478]

There should never have been a split. From an in-game context I hated murderers. but htye bought that simulated virtual world to LIFE. Statloss, murder counts and bounties were slowly bringing reds to a minority to keep that sense of a virtual world without exagerating it.

Then EA appointed the same lot that would bring us fantastic decisions such as elves, sunglasses, raid like content, itemised gameplay, item properties and world splitting.

Fantastic lot, where are they now?

 

[Feyre]

<blockquote><hr>

There are no "Trammies" where I play. What are you?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dunno what shard you play but theres plenty of trammies on siege.

 

[Babble]

The whole game needs more than it has now

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I hate the fact that the direction this game has gone has done nothing to strengthen this philosophy but, only serve to destroy it.

I am a bitter old veteran, who has seen every phase this game has gone through and have lost soooo many friends AND enemies because of the neglect and down right disrespect given to our playstyle.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

It's a pity that the old Fel has to survive just in the memories of us crumbly vets. Sadly the game has been changed to listen to the vocal sorts who want life safe and easy. I don't care how many people like it, we lost some amazing players and the "want it easy" attitude has spread back into Fel with some PvPers who need their whiny butts kicked hard. Players just seem to ask for the game to be lowered to their level nowadays. Where did that fighting spirit go?

When I started out, you just accepted that life didn't always go your way, picked yourself up and went back in there. You didn't cry on the forums because you understood the difference between in game and RL. A real shame that years later players still can't understand that a player might play a murderer simply to let off steam from his RL job/life.

If someone behaved in a despicable way in old Fel, it fired you up to hand out some justice. You didn't take it personally, because everyone who passed that PK's house got the same treatment

. Thieves didn't just rob you, they'd rob anything that looked a good mark. There was a sick satisfaction from getting a PK into loss after they'd terrorised your community. Nothing worse than being nuked by a horde of RPers

If you and your friends regularly tried to uphold the virtues by attacking those evil doers, both alignments needed each other. Fel is a desperately sad place without those colourful characters. It's a real pity the new players today didn't see the other side of Fel. I often got new players into Fel who loved it, just as the world became more sanitised, fewer would take the chance. Stupid really, as Fel is safer than ever now.

I'm tempted to try Siege, but when you've spent long years on a shard running a RP town in Fel, you want to see a better land there, not uproot and move.

Wenchy

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

...I'm doing a lot of bashing and it's really not fair.

Now tuck tale and run back to trammy land... where the biggest obstacle is figuring out how to stay 8 tiles from a monster walking towards you.

Whats the hold up??? Get to it!

So much for role-play... now go back to playing your watered down version of Ultima... I enjoy my fantasy's in full flavor thank you very much.

bye byes!

Go buy a console if you want to play a videogame where the only things you interact with are computer generated characters and get the [censored] out of this wonderful masterpiece.

ok ok ok?!?

I thought it was the panzies that couldn't handle the fact that other players had the choice to impact their gameplay...

The only griefing I can understand as legitimate is verbal harassment, and even then... the trammel ruleset does NOTHING against this.

Like I said, trammel is the dumbest philosophy I've ever heard of... not to mention the most hypocritical.

I am a bitter old veteran..


[/ QUOTE ]

The attitude you display in your posts shows exactly why we need two shards.

As for the OP, I remember changes that affect my playstyle being implemented specifically to appease the PvP crowd. Yes, sometimes changes are made that aren't well thought out, or that impact a certain playstyle more than others. It's a big game with lots of players and there is no way the Devs can make everyone happy all of the time.

In my opinion, it's the Fel/PvP'ers that always want everything their own way. It seems that half of you wont be happy until everyone is effectively nerfed to exactly the same template. The one that you can kill without dying yourself. (Of course that means that you alone have to be the only one with the winning template. You wouldn't want to nerf yourself!)

Here is a little exercise for you... go through UHall, Professions, and the Shard forums and count how many messages are written by a Fel/PvP player that is complaining about some game imbalance just cause some other class can actually kill them. Do they change their tactics/skills to deal with this new threat? No, they start screaming for a nerf.

If someone has a more powerful character than yours... then there is a game imbalance! If the devs dont immediately implement a nerf/change... then they are ignoring you and killing the game!

Get over it already.

 

[Guest]

I often wondered how many people would be back in fel if factions was fixed and actually meant something.

No one willingly (esp. those that hate pvp) would go to a place where they could be ganked 4:1 at any time.

Just look at the top games out there, pvp is for the most part optional and not forced. Even when UO was in the "glory days" of no trammel, EQ was beating out UO in subscriptions.

 

[Sneaky Que]

<blockquote><hr>

Even when UO was in the "glory days" of no trammel, EQ was beating out UO in subscriptions.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? No it wasn't. EQ did not even start until two years after UO...

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html

 

[Babble]

I still remember bit after t2a came out in europe for about $100 here, to either get UO or EQ1 (which needed 3d card I did not have)
EQ came out way before Trammel though.

On EA shards you cannot bring Felucca back to life.
There is no way all playstyles will agree on one facet.

Siege and Mugen are different and they are not that full as not many non pvpers go there.


Maybe a balanced shard for pvp and non pvpers might have a chance, but lots easier for developers to just segregate the two playstyles and avoid the mess.

Add pvp features for felucca and be done with it.

 

[Guest]

RTOP

Does more content mean new land? If so… Do PvPers really want more land? Wouldn’t more land be like spreading not enough butter over too much bread? My impression is that PvPers like to engage other people. Adding an additional land mass for PvPers would be like cutting the probability of finding someone to PvP with in half. Do PvPers really want less people to PvP with. Well it might not really be less people, but it’ll seem like less. Just curious…

 

[Sneaky Que]

<blockquote><hr>


Maybe a balanced shard for pvp and non pvpers might have a chance, but lots easier for developers to just segregate the two playstyles and avoid the mess.


[/ QUOTE ]

What about the mess that happens when a new change comes in for one play style that unbalances the other in some way? It happens all the time (mostly PvM changes unbalancing PvP).

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

oops, i have to agree then, siege is the happiest place around.. i applaud you

[/ QUOTE ]

Siege indeed is a great place for some players, and Fel is a great place for some players (agreed...not as good as it COULD be)...but some people love both Fel and Siege. Nothing wrong with that, at all.

<blockquote><hr>

but to you who say pvp isnt adventure, you need to understand that pvp is the best form of adventure. you see, only in pvp can you get a contest against someone or thing that you cannot predict, or may not repeat an action.

[/ QUOTE ]

IN this, I will disagree...to a point. PvP IS very exciting. It is particularly exciting when you can be certain there are no cheats being used. I really hate cheaters, a lot, and from what I gather, many that PvP DO use healing scripts, etc. I mean...that sucks, right?

But to say that you can't predict what your opponent will do...well...we are all creatures of habit, and even back when there was no Trammel, and I engaged in Non-Consensual PvP...people, themselves, became predictable. They would do a lot of the same thing in fights. Especially the part where they would go get 5 friends, after getting pwned by a single player. That part you could set your watch by...

<blockquote><hr>

if you are playing the game for the monsters, or that is what you call adventure.. doesnt it get old knowing that no matter what you do, you will get no reaction that is varried. or response that is non-pregenerated?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well...honestly...for some people, there IS no fun in having 5 players walk up, while you are already fighting a predictable monster (OR three), and having them kill your toon. To a lot of people, that just isn't fun, at all.

To you, and to some, it is. Nothing wrong with that.

But as hard as it is to fathom, some people JUST want to fight those easy Paragon Balrons, or Dragons...or do the Peerless Bosses, or just explore and adventure killing predictable AI, without worrying about some person that wants to demonstrate how bad ass they are, to come up with 4 friends, and kill, then laugh at them.

Yeah..I know...dang Trammies!!!

<blockquote><hr>

PvP IS the challenge that CANNOT be faked by a computer untill they come up with AI, and from the last thing i heard, we arent there yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now...if there were actual "Duels"...with actual "Rules"...and ways to prevent the person I am fighting from running a script that automatically applies bandages, or chugs pots for them, as they become damaged (which, by the way, is what I would have to do manually...taking away the ability to do other things...like they can do to me)...that would likely get more people to Fel...getting more love from the Dev Team, as it would likely become more populated. Things like no insurance, and no loss of items, at all, at death, would help a lot, too, I would think. No smack talking would help too...

Take your bandwagon, and devote your energies to those causes, and I am thinking you would go a long way to helping your cause out. Far further than denigrating people that currently do NOT enjoy a play style that you enjoy...far further,, I am betting.

Other than that, well...just realize that the Dev Time will always go where there are the most people...and for a LOT of years...and they know this...MOST people prefer to not put up with completely Non-Consensual PvP. At the very least...MORE people than want to, it would seem. It's just the way it is, whether we like it, or not.

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

Hmmm.....can I get a darkfall reference? I know one is coming...haha

[/ QUOTE ]

OK...that was just...just...mean.

Mean...but likely true...hahaha...

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

When UO was the number 1 MMO in the world (1997-2000), ya know the title held by World of Warcraft ATM? Guess [censored] what.... NO TRAMMEL.

[/ QUOTE ]

And MOST importantly:

NO COMPETITION

Oh...until Everquest came along in 2000 or so...WHICH HAD NO NON-CON PvP...NONE...ZERO...AND SURPASSED UO's "#1" Subscription totals WITHIN SIX MONTHS.

Sheesh.

Talk about way flawed logic on your part, along with a HEFTY set o' Blinders, there Sneaky.

Not a cogent way to argue your point, I must say.

Oh...and in closing:

There IS no "Non-Consensual" PvP in WoW...the #1 MMO EVAH!!

You MUST be one side, or the other, and can ONLY kill "Your Side" in a Duel...so even there...not correct about the Non-Con.

 

[imported_Prince Erik]

Sam.... tsk tsk.. that's not going to win you any l33T friends!

There sure have been some interesting points on this thread, that's for sure.

Personally I'm with the posters who play all styles. I've been in factions, I used to try to protect miners around the moutain side (wasn't very good at it alas, sorry miners!) I have two fully developed SP chars and played there for a long time (including dealing with the famous wipe) and I loved when power scrolls first came out and I miss my battles with the role playing Orcs .. what fun! Did I ever become a professional pvp'er with the win at all cost mentality, no. Do I ever want to be? No. I applaud those with the dedication to be the best (except the ones that do it by cheating and exploits) .. but I can't sink all my time into learning those ways.

In many ways I play to relax. I like to explore sometimes - try new things meet different people and collect things. The droning sound of a shovel repeatedly hitting an ore location helped calm me after a rough day.. the steady plop, plop of a fishing pole was soothing. Soothing was not watching my boat fill with fire and poison fields by four pirates who happened to sail by and wanted the "ultimate challenge" of wasting a poor lowly fisherman 1 v 4.

Sometimes I like a good fight, but not always. In fact it's quite rare now since I've fallen farther down the "can't compete with the pro's" slope. That's why I cannot play Siege anymore - every time I tried to leave my tower I would be killed before I could fill up my pack with gold and get home.

That's great for some but not my cup of tea anymore.

To each his own - for the good of the game I always say. PvP'ers will be PvP'ers and the rest .. well.. usually are not. I fail to see why OUR game has to be one sided either way. Democracy... you know the drill.

-P.E.

 

[Lord Kotan]

It's probably because it's their largest subscription base... And there is also Siege.... if they ever patch the new dragons there.

 

[Belmarduk]

Hm what am I ?
Have lived in Fel for nearly all my UO Life but have zero to..hm zero interest in activly pvping in UO anymore.

Remove insurance and balance pvp properly then I might start again.

Going on a operation looking for enemies for 2 hours and in the end I myself only getting of one potshot on a pirate who fled too fast for us is more fun than killing the same person 20 times who is back in battle after 2min everytime and loses *gasp* 3k gold per insured item... Thats lame - but opinion.

Why did that operation take 2 hours and ended with zero kills?
Because both sides KNOW they could lose EVERYTHING. ergo Both sides are really careful - Is much more nerve wracking - believe me

IF I hadnt the center of my "UO Life" on Drachenfels and IF I had a really good ping to Siege I would definatley be on Siege ! On the otherhand it is quite nice to have "safe-zones" when you really just want to do pve stuff
A better solution are "safer" zones - eg you can get killed there but it is fairly unlikely if you keep to certain rules plus the Killer would get shreeded anyway by Concor..ah the Townguards

Greetings Belmarduk

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I hate the fact that the direction this game has gone has done nothing to strengthen this philosophy but, only serve to destroy it.

I am a bitter old veteran, who has seen every phase this game has gone through and have lost soooo many friends AND enemies because of the neglect and down right disrespect given to our playstyle.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, you disrespected your own playstyle.

Back in the long ago days, there were so many people who held your "philosophy" that it was impossible to do anything else in the game. You couldn't go out mining because PKers would reguarly gate into every popular mining spot simply for the fun of chopping down naked, penniless miners for no reason. You couldn't go PvM against any good spawns because hoards of griefers would come in and draw massive hoards of monsters on to you, laugh and then loot your corpse. I remember that you couldn't even walk between cities without bumping into somebody and them murdering you just for the hell of it.

It got to the point where there was no point in having most of the events and cool new stuff in the game because nobody would be able to enjoy it anyway; they would just be PKed. What would be the point in having 80% of a game you couldn't enjoy freely?

So they brought in penalties to try and force players into actually considering that PKing might have consequences and to only do it for something worth it, and not just kill every random newbie they could find. But then when that didn't work they realised ... they were simply jerks who took fun in killing newbies and didn't really care. So Trammel was born.

You don't have the right to whine about how your playstyle was killed ... you killed your own playstyle by being such jerks. Trammel didn't win, the PKers pwned themselves.

Incidentally, this is my first post in five years.

 

[imported_Goron]

<blockquote><hr>


Siege and Mugen are different and they are not that full as not many non pvpers go there.


[/ QUOTE ]I respectfully disagree. We have MANY nonpvpers. Just because someone doesnt actively pvp does not mean they cannot enjoy a shard with actual risk. I have no doubt there are more nonpvpers than pvpers on Siege.

 

[Babble]

Depends how you define it.
Every one playing Siege agrees to open pvp. So is that not by definition a consenting pvper?

 

[Clx-]

<blockquote><hr>



There is a lot to this game. If you want to play a place that has no Trammel, my world beckons. Come on over and play. You choose the place you play.

[/ QUOTE ]

If only it was that simple:

ie if Siege actually had good PvP.

 

[Guest]

I'm sorry that was your experience, but it certainly wasn't mine and never has been. I've run vendors, crafted and run a RP town and loitered in other RP towns pretty much since I started in UO 9 or so years ago. Exclusively in Fel.

Our town is still standing simply because we made a conscious decision to forge alliances and truces with PvPers rather than play the victim. The town is still standing and not once have I considered moving to Tram. Yes, we had trouble at times, but that was where community came into it. It's perfectly possible to have a very contented life in Fel with RPers and PvPers in the same place, but I guess not everyone was as crazy as me in trying that approach.

But to say Fel players created their demise is simply untrue. Players moved to Tram because they didn't like to be PKd or stolen from. Often it was their perception that the person was after them personally or they just felt uncomfortable in those situations. You don't have to grief a player for them to think that's what you're doing. But when a player gets the choice of a safe haven and feels that discomfort, they'll move.

Many players have never set foot in Fel and believe stories told second and third hand by other Tram players who haven't been there in years. Makes me laugh in these days of insurance, that players are so timid about Fel, yet will solo peerless spawns. You'd think Fel was overrun by griefers to hear some Trammel players speaking and I'm sure few have any idea what the current Fel is like

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

there use to be two types of uo player, they were broken into those groups when trammel came to be, those that played, adventure, and fought in fel/ and those that camped at the bank, wanted a "safe" dungeon experience

, or socialized in tram.... why didnt they give anything to the fel players to make them feel loved too? i think all the patches, and changes for a long time now have been based around the crowd of trammies?, or malasites?, or Tokunians?, i dont know what to call them now that they have all those new lands to adventure.... can we please have some attention in Fel!!!..

and please dont say it isnt added to due to the lacking population, if that is the reason, please turn that statement around, it is a lacking population because of the lacking attention to players of that style...

[/ QUOTE ]


Brother, Im late to the party...
But there arent 2 groups...

There arent 2 play styles...

Knock it off.

 

[Guest]

I'm on Europa

Wenchy

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

We don't have whiny Trammies on Siege.

 

[Stigmatas]

<blockquote><hr>

I am a bitter old veteran, who has seen every phase this game has gone through and have lost soooo many friends AND enemies because of the neglect and down right disrespect given to our playstyle.

It's time we start changing that.

[/ QUOTE ]


As far as this goes, I'm a [somewhat] non-bitter old veteran who also has seen friends lost because of a complete non-consensual ruleset before EQ ever came out. Remember EQ? Remember the mass exodus of players to that game because of rampant pk'ing? I know I do. I could flame the boards and act like a child about losing a dozen friends to EXACTLY the opposite of what your trying to prove.

Think about that.

 

[Fluffi]

RTL.


God these threads depress me!


Nothing but people taking sides and making blanket judgements about other peoples' playstyle. My, how we are all impressed by your posturing on a comuter game forum.
Combining this with the immensly childish "all Trammies are Carebears" and "all PvPers are antisocial braggarts" stereotypes, makes me want consider opening a vein.


To the Trammies... You are not perfect. You are not real-life morally better than the PvPers.

To the PvPers... You are not perfect. You are not real-life tougher than the Trammies.


I have a couple of reasonably well-developed characters on Siege.
I have utterly irredemable murderers on Europa.
I have Europa characters who never leave Trammel.

Does that mean that I am a hardcore player of "the real UO" (who probably maltreats small, helpless animals as a hobby)?
Does that mean that I am a sad little person, scared of competing against "real men", (who is probably morally and intellectually superior to the "cheating gimps" who inhabit the PvP realms)?


Each facet/ruleset has its' pros and its' cons.

Until we, as a combined playerbase, are able to debate these faults and advantages without resorting to juvinile name-calling, then NOTHING of any value will ever come from our discussions.

 

[Guest]

If they put in a PvP switch, I'd plat in Fel. I hate PvPer so I play in tram.

Why do I hate PvPer?

Maybe back when I first played UO there was only one land. That land you had Pkers and non-pkers. The pkers were ass hats that liked to target new playes and kill them. Then they'd rez them and kill them again. They would also empty the players pack.
As well as hack up the body and pose the remains.

Now if Pvp allowed me to fight without the risk of losing stuff I worked hard to get, then maybe I'd try it. I know about insurance, but its can empty ones bank account fast.

I did go to fel a few weeks ago nude. I was killed, then laughed at for dressing like a "noob". I laughed back and said who was the noob that murdered an unarmed player?
He then killed me again.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I am a bitter old veteran, who has seen every phase this game has gone through and have lost soooo many friends AND enemies because of the neglect and down right disrespect given to our playstyle.

It's time we start changing that.

[/ QUOTE ]


As far as this goes, I'm a [somewhat] non-bitter old veteran who also has seen friends lost because of a complete non-consensual ruleset before EQ ever came out. Remember EQ? Remember the mass exodus of players to that game because of rampant pk'ing? I know I do. I could flame the boards and act like a child about losing a dozen friends to EXACTLY the opposite of what your trying to prove.

Think about that.

[/ QUOTE ]

How in the hell do you know that there was a mass exodus of players that left just to go to EQ?

Infact... there wasn't as UO's subscriptions were steadily gaining at the same rate they had been the entire time this game was a Fel only game. There was no mass exodus to EQ and for starters, lets talk about the fact that EQ is made by Sony, an ASIAN based company which garnered ASIAN subscribers... which make up MORE subscribers than any other demographic (look at lineage?)

Lets also not forget that people didnt go to Trammel because they hated PKs... people went to trammel to PLACE A HOUSE and got stuck there because at the time, it wasn't easy to move back and forth...


Thats total utter crap that any of you try to pass of that PKing was the reasons people quit playing UO or why people moved to Trammel... theres absolutely no evidence to support that stupid statement.

Sure, maybe a few players quit... but they belonged on a Trammel only shard... not mixing with UO's population and imprinting their stupid playstyle upon those of us who enjoyed UO exactly the way it was set up.

And let's get another thing straight... UO's population isn't increasing and Trammel hasn't done squat to keep this game afloat... like you all had promised us for sooo long.

The only thing Trammies have shown is that they're willing to jump ship and move onto the next game that has better graphics and cooler looking pixel crap.

Feluccans prove that even after 8 years of screwing them over, they will make their own shard and play this game how it was originally designed. And 8 years later, they have populations on those servers that rival ours...


Way to completely kill the community in this game and then go ahead and post on here the biggest thing you wish you still had was... community.

Oh the irony, sounds like you need a hug, buddy.


Don't be mad I'm right... it wasn't me or my people who ruined fel, it was the REVOLVING DOOR Dev team listening to all the cry baby brats about OH NOES PKS NOOO I'LL QUIT IF I HAVE TO START ON A NEW SHARD AND LOSE ALL MY PRECIOUS PIXELS!!!

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

And in the seven or eight years since Trammel was born and Felucca abandoned, there have been ******* like you coming to boards like this, to whine about how Trammies don't love their precious PVP and just want easy-mode or whatever. Eight years.

Here's a clue, kid. We don't care what you think. We didn't care eight years ago, we didn't care now, and we never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

******* like me?

 

[Guest]

You might like pking, I for one don't, well I don't unless I knew it was a fair fight.

Problem is back in the old days the fights weren't fair. Many pkers used a few 3rd party programs to help their fight game.
Then there were the pkers that preyed upon just the new player only.

Now if I knew that I could goto fel and have just 1 person attack me at a time, then I just might go. But 90 precent of pkers prefer to jump a solo guy as a group. Giving solo guy no chance.

My chars are old school. I don't have time to build what todays UO players considers the uber char. I don't seek out uber armour or items, instead I just use what I loot or can make.
Why would a pk want to jump me, I have no clue, but yet, I still get jumped even with my junk stuff.

 

[GreywolfUK]

Trammies never won anything, UO lost a lot of its character, but not its LIFE.


I am an old school vet, and I have played just about every character type you can in our world, thief, murderer, adventurer, trader, crafter of all the characters I have been in the years I have played, my thief and old school crafter is the ones I miss the most.

I used to be so against the like of Pub16 and AoS, and that tram ruleset was imposed on more of the landmass than the Fel ruleset, but has it stopped me playing no, so what has stopped me playing Fel rules and sticking to Tram, lets see, script monkeys, speed hacking, arti gimps, death of the thief class, (this one hurt the most) what could be more funny than a disarm thief, stealing someone weapon out of there hand and killing them with it

, or getting chased all over Fel after getting noticed dipping someone bag

. Will I ever return to the old lands, I would be lying if I said no, but it would take the restoration of the thieves and an end to all scripting, speed hacking and insurance, fixing Factions, COM forever baby

. Maybe one day I will rez my Fel account.

Be it Fel, Tram, Malas or anywhere else in our world, I don't bloody care what ruleset you play by, the one thing that we have to remember is, WE ARE ALL members of the UO community, and we all love this game, otherwise we would not have such passionate discussion every now and then

.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

There's no non-consentual PVP in UO either, once you click that red gate, you consented.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is incorrect and is a great deal of the problem. Felucca is much more than a playground for pvp players. There is more than just pvp to felucca but most of those who are found there now treat it as nothing more than an arena.

Just because a person is in felucca does not mean they are there to pvp. In today's day and age, most are there for that purpose but with that simple philosophy you have successfully spent the last 8 years painting yourself into a corner. Congratulations.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

Be it Fel, Tram, Malas or anywhere else in our world, I don't bloody care what ruleset you play by, the one thing that we have to remember is, WE ARE ALL members of the UO community, and we all love this game, otherwise we would not have such passionate discussion every now and then

.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be nice if we were all looked at as equally important. Too long has the picture been painted that Trammel is the golden ticket in this chocolate bar... and wow, have we been screwed by believing in that stupid, stupid... notion.

We all have a place in UO and each should be nurtured and cared for.

We need to stop alienating those who enjoy the Felucca mindset and give Felucca the love it deserves... we might see that there really are people out there who enjoy having the freedom to play any role they so desire in our virtual world... rather than limiting everyone to one specific style of play.

Nice post.

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

There's no non-consentual PVP in UO either, once you click that red gate, you consented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Righto...and before the gates led TO Trammel? Then?

Oh yeah...that's right...I consented by logging in...almost forgot that, there, Homegrown.

A heck of a lot of people chose what EQ defined, and WoW and almost ALL other games defined as "Consensual"...to be the kind of game they would pay to play.

They don't have "Red Gates"...they don't need em...

They have half million or better subscribers...and have NEVER had Red Gates.

Think that over...in your Logical Ponderings...

Oh yeah...I know...THOSE people don't know what FUN is...

But the companies that provide the "Non-Red Gate" environment know what "Half a Million Subscribers" feels like...UO never has.

Think about that, too...

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

There's no non-consentual PVP in UO either, once you click that red gate, you consented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Righto...and before the gates led TO Trammel? Then?

Oh yeah...that's right...I consented by logging in...almost forgot that, there, Homegrown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy red herring!!! Where did he even imply what you infer?

<blockquote><hr>

A heck of a lot of people chose what EQ defined, and WoW and almost ALL other games defined as "Consensual"...to be the kind of game they would pay to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

So... why aren't "a heck of a lot of" people playing UO since UO offers... just that?

Oh... wait.

"Consensual" PvP does nothing for the success of a game... otherwise SWG would be teaming with people rather than being a niche game.

Sony garners lots of players because they are Sony and people trust them to make a solid game.

Blizzard garners lots of players because they are Blizzard and people trust them to make a solid game.

Again, I ask... UO has been focused on Consensual PvP for 8 years now... where are all the people if this is such a determining factor?!?

Your excuses are up... and you've dropped the ball.

<blockquote><hr>

Think about that, too...

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you try it first.

since you forgot that <u>millions</u> play Lineage... so you're points are pretty pointless.

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

Sony garners lots of players because they are Sony and people trust them to make a solid game.

Blizzard garners lots of players because they are Blizzard and people trust them to make a solid game.


[/ QUOTE ]

No one can argue that those are Solid Companies...but really...answer this...why don't THEY...the Solid Game Making Companies with MILLIONS of subscribers...current, that is...why don't THEY offer what YOU want...there MUST be a reason, eh? Logic says...there must be a reason...and a darn good one, at that...yep...there MUST be a Reason.

They are idiots? They make so much money already that they don't want the teeming completely Non-Consensual MILLIONS that play Lineage to join them?? Yeah...that's the ticket...

The day you use Logic, rather than obtusely derived and excessively biased, and unbackable "Facts", to back up the drivel you call posts...

Well..that is the day we can actually debate a topic, with real Rebuttals, and all that. You know...like Grown Ups do.

Until then...drivel on, my friend.

It isn't without notice...the way a Court Jester provides amusement to the court...drivel on.

Sheesh.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Sony garners lots of players because they are Sony and people trust them to make a solid game.

Blizzard garners lots of players because they are Blizzard and people trust them to make a solid game.


[/ QUOTE ]

No one can argue that those are Solid Companies...but really...answer this...why don't THEY...the Solid Game Making Companies with MILLIONS of subscribers...current, that is...why don't THEY offer what YOU want...there MUST be a reason, eh? Logic says...there must be a reason...and a darn good one, at that...yep...there MUST be a Reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said there wasn't a reason? Did you see me say there wasn't a reason? You can't even tell me what that reason is... and the only thing your mind seems to be able to conquer is that there is a reason (duh, no [censored] sherlock) but, why do you keep hedging around what you think the reason is?

Oh... now, could it be because it's not the reason you keep trying to "infer" us into believing it is? No... you couldn't hit that reply button and admit that Consensual PvP doesn't determine the success of a game... now could you?

Nice try, but you've fallen through that thin sheet of ice you just tried to walk across... here, I'll throw you a life preserver before you drowned.

So why don't I try and explain what logic would tell you... that is of course, if you actually knew what logic sounded like...

Logic states that they chose to make their game with a certain philosophy in mind because they felt like it would best serve that style of game and for that, they have a solid game.

Ultima however was not created with that philosophy in mind... and thus, attempting to cater to people who hold the same empty reasoning that you do has done nothing but ruined this game.

Both of those games have PvP dedicated servers... as UO should have created Trammel servers... but let's get one thing straight.

Consensual PvP does nothing of what you wished it would for this game.

Nice try in using savy verbiage to make it seem so... but that's all you get, is a nice try and a pat on the back.

There, there.

<blockquote><hr>

The day you use Logic, rather than obtusely derived and excessively biased, and unbackable "Facts", to back up the drivel you call posts...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dance puppet, dance... do not look up at the strings but simply dance.

You are very good at what you do.

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

You do realize you have a better chance of talking logic to a wall, right?

Non-consensual PvP was what made this game so great. Player justice. The simple combat system. We went from a system that had hundreds of thousands of players (in an age when computers weren't a dime a dozen) to one that I would wildly guess is less than half that.

Among those half are all the cheaters, scripters, and "businesses" that leech off the requirement that every play have top notch items that were (up until recently) available only to those who could spend countless hours in doom etc...

The item based game (IE Age of Shadows) decimated any hope that UO had. The tide is already beginning to turn. I suspect after they flood the market with all these high end items, they'll be craftable with UO:SA.

Then we're virtually right back where we started.

Hopefully minus lots of bugs.

Maybe they learned their lesson...

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

Logic states that they chose to make their game with a certain philosophy in mind because they felt like it would best serve that style of game and for that, they have a solid game.

[/ QUOTE ]

So...now...just answer this:

WHY aren't there a LOT more Completely Non-Consensual MMO Games?

Why?

That is all I want you to tell us all.

Why.

It's easy...stop with the song and dance.

Stop with the seemingly brilliant come-backs.

Tell us all WHY the a LOT more of the BIG companies DON'T offer what you, and all the rest of the Hard Core Non Cons SAY is so Fargin' Great...that thing that Sergul'zan_SP and all the rest SAY is what made UO so awesome...and went away within 3 years of UO's launch, and hasn't been revisited, in depth for 8 years now? (Obviously you will always turn a completely blind eye to the very simple fact that SOME loved Non Con, but most don't...at least...not the Non-Con that UO offered, when it started...because that If Statement would then beg the Else statement, to back it up...but the return is #N/A, or False).

Tell us all...go ahead...show us your Brilliance...

After all...there are MILLIONS of people that LOVE Completely Non-Con...MILLIONS of em...so...maybe you and Sergul'zan_SP can team up to tell us ALL why there AREN'T a LOT more games that cater to that thing that SO many love, and made UO the Game it is today? Are the company officials idiots? Do they not like making money? WHY aren't there a LOT more of em?

Please...I know I just can't wait...

I'd ask ask Sergul'zan_SP how the teeming millions on SP are doing...but that's right...the Devs messed that all up...it isn't the Non-Con...no...it...must ...be...something...

Um yeah.

A Wall.

LOL.

That's it.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Logic states that they chose to make their game with a certain philosophy in mind because they felt like it would best serve that style of game and for that, they have a solid game.

[/ QUOTE ]

So...now...just answer this:

WHY aren't there a LOT more Completely Non-Consensual MMO Games?

Why?

That is all I want you to tell us all.

Why.

It's easy...stop with the song and dance.

Stop with the seemingly brilliant come-backs.

Tell us all WHY the a LOT more of the BIG companies DON'T offer what you, and all the rest of the Hard Core Non Cons SAY is so Fargin' Great...that thing that Sergul'zan_SP and all the rest SAY is what made UO so awesome...and went away within 3 years of UO's launch, and hasn't been revisited, in depth for 8 years now? (Obviously you will always turn a completely blind eye to the very simple fact that SOME loved Non Con, but most don't...at least...not the Non-Con that UO offered, when it started...because that If Statement would then beg the Else statement, to back it up...but the return is #N/A, or False).

Tell us all...go ahead...show us your Brilliance...

After all...there are MILLIONS of people that LOVE Completely Non-Con...MILLIONS of em...so...maybe you and Sergul'zan_SP can team up to tell us ALL why there AREN'T a LOT more games that cater to that thing that SO many love, and made UO the Game it is today? Are the company officials idiots? Do they not like making money? WHY aren't there a LOT more of em?

Please...I know I just can't wait...

I'd ask ask Sergul'zan_SP how the teeming millions on SP are doing...but that's right...the Devs messed that all up...it isn't the Non-Con...no...it...must ...be...something...

Um yeah.

A Wall.

LOL.

That's it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh goodness...!!!!

Aren't you in a humongous huff and puff over being completely wrong!!!


LOL


but seriously... you didn't know about Age of Conan? Darkfall?

and hell... let's even look at Mythic who took over Ultima Online

Realm vs Realm warfare was the central theme of Dark Age of Camelot... and is also the central theme of....

WARHAMMER which is NON-CONSENSUAL PVP!!!


EVERY GAME ON THE INDUSTRIES HORIZON IS PVP ORIENTED!!!


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaahaahhahahahahahahahahahhahah


now please, eloquently put up another cry fest showing us how immature you become when you lose an argument...

This is entertaining!

Dance puppet, dance!!!!

 

[Guest]

IBTL?

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

Both of those games have PvP dedicated servers... as UO should have created Trammel servers... but let's get one thing straight.

Consensual PvP does nothing of what you wished it would for a game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh...one more thing...

Listen carefully...

SOME People love Non Con PvP.

Not ENOUGH love it for the biggest game companies to make it the center of their efforts.

No where have I ever said that NO ONE likes, or loves, completely Non Con PvP. The POINT is that if a LOT of people DID love it, as YOU infer, there would be LOTS more games and companies that offer it. SOME love it...but not enough to warrant big companies like Sony and Blizzard, or EA/Mythic, to offer it up the way it was offered up in the beginning, when there was NO competition...and guess why.

Go ahead.

Because now there IS competition that DOESN'T offer it...with MILLIONS of subscribers.

Get it yet? It's OK...we'll keep going...have a cookie to keep your strength up...you may need it.

<blockquote><hr>

You can't even tell me what that reason is... and the only thing your mind seems to be able to conquer is that there is a reason (duh, no [censored] sherlock) but, why do you keep hedging around what you think the reason is?


[/ QUOTE ]

The REASON is that the concept of completely Non Con PvP, based on what the big companies (not you, thankfully) know to be true, is that it is NOT a big draw. It just ain't. It's a draw...just not a big one...like WoW's PvP...completely consensual, and VERY popular. No Dry Looting. No guilding someone, and killing them. None of that.

THAT'S the reason...got it yet? It's OK if you don't...I am very persistent...even with people whose posts indicate that there is no hope in their ever comprehending it.

No worries...I'll keep at it until you do get it. You can be 100% certain of that.

<blockquote><hr>

Oh... now, could it be because it's not the reason you keep trying to "infer" us into believing it is? No... you couldn't hit that reply button and admit that Consensual PvP doesn't determine the success of a game... now could you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Two negatives...couldn't and doesn't.

*Watches the Post Dance*

Not good enough.

The REASON is that although SOME people like "completely Non Con loot you Dry PvP"...MOST do not...so MOST big companies do NOT offer it, like that. At all. Some do...but certainly not most, nor do the very biggest and most popular games offer PvP that way.

MANY offer PvP...and SOME, like Lineage, do very well with their Non-Con...but MOST don't...and there is a Reason for that...MOST people that pay to play a game do NOT care for that playstyle, or MORE companies would offer it...MORE Lands in UO would offer it....that's what the LOGIC says...

Get it yet?

<blockquote><hr>

Nice try in using savy verbiage to make it seem so... but that's all you get, is a nice try and a pat on the back.

There, there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pats are nice...and since it's all you have to offer...in lieu of actual Logic in your posts, I guess it's the best you can do. But it IS so...or you would have 8 Non Con Lands in UO, and Trammel would be one lonely little land, with one other hardly populated server to keep it company...but that isn't how it is, is it? Hasn't been for about 8 years now...LOGIC says, it IS that way...that MOST people don't love Non Con like you and some others do...it's that way right now...or we wouldn't be having THIS conversation. Get it yet?

Have a nice evening...don't get too sick from the spinning you are doing...hopefully you aren't drinking whilst you do this...could get ugly.

 

[Guest]

IBTL??

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

Darkfall?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

When IS that wonderful game coming out?

Look...I NEVER said PvP isn't popular.

If I did...post it.

Good lord, man.

LISTEN:

<font color=red>Non-Consensual PvP is NOT NEARLY as Popular as Consensual PvP. PERIOD</font color=red>

Read that again. Let it sink in. It is a fact, whether YOU acknowledge it, or not, makes not a whit of difference in the real world.

If you have something like Facts to back up that I somewhere said that ALL PvP is completely unpopular, post it.

Otherwise, spend some of the time you would use to try to come up with witty "Rebuttals", and go back and read...READ what I wrote.

Otherwise, this is a complete waste. Well...based on your posts to myself, and others so far, it likely is, anyway...but I hate giving up...

...even on you...

<blockquote><hr>

EVERY GAME ON THE INDUSTRIES HORIZON IS PVP ORIENTED!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

OK Captain Obvious...we all know that PvP, ESPECIALLY Consensual PvP , is very popular. There is a little game called "WoW...Completely Consensual...WAY more popular than Lineage, UO, DAoC, combined...COMPLETELY Consensual...yah...

My point is, and has been, that what YOU and some other say is SO popular, isn't, otherwise, there would be a HUNDRED games like that...COMPLETELY Non-Consensual, and there isn't...

Darkfall...LOL...too funny.

That one statement clearly indicates you are in a Fantasy World...total Pun intended.

Aaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahha.

Vaporware.

Good night...

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

Surgies, you really shouldn't be so upset that you were wrong

Nobody likes a sore loser!

You still have done nothing to show how focusing on Non-Con PvP has been successful for Ultima Online. Which is my point and not a single one of the so called <font color=red>facts</font color=red> you listed even addressed this argument and you didn't even concisely address any of my points in their <u>entirety</u>.

Way to fail!

Good night good friend!! You should stop cutting just the "bull" out of UOHall... you keep leaving so much crap behind in your posts!!!


So much anger, so much hate... damn that rap musik!

 

[Guest]

*chuckles* BR is what he is.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

*RAWR*

 

[Guest]

The way I see it is if you have a problem with "Trammies" then it's just like your tv....don't like it, then quit looking at it! If you want to pvp then pvp and quit griping about the ones that don't want to! Not everyone has socialpathic urges!