The War on Cheating - What's the Next Step?

[Llewen]

*A note for the moderators before I start. I was asked to give this topic some time to cool down, I've done that. I would ask that if this thread gets trolled, which it inevitably will, that you deal with the trolls and the trolling specifically, and not let the trolls have the victory by locking the thread - which is apparently what they want to have happen.*

Ok, we've had some action taken against some accounts based on third party cheat detection, no one knows how many outside the devs, so now what? I'm still seeing some scripting in pvp in the game, but certainly not as much as there was before the action was taken.

What must not happen: That the situation with regard to cheating be allowed to settle back to "business as usual". Action needs to be taken on an ongoing basis against those using illegal third party apps. There is a very real danger that those who are inclined to cheat will think that the recent action was like so many actions against cheaters have been throughout UO's history, one big action against a very few individuals, and then nothing.

The next step: In my opinion we now need checksums, or some kind of integrity check for client files - for both clients, but most especially the classic client. There are a lot of illegal art hacks in use for the classic client that give their users an unfair advantage. Everything from the infamous "stump hack", to hacks that alter the behaviour of fields by allowing them to be cast on tiles they wouldn't normally be allowed to cast on, or art hacks that allow players to run through objects that should block movement.

Personally, I don't have a problem with hacks that change UI elements, such as changing the background colour of containers, etc. You can do those things with the enhanced client, so it seems rather unfair that you wouldn't be able to do the same with the classic client. If there was some way to perform integrity checks for world and object art files, without doing the same for gui element files, that would be the best solution, again in my opinion.

/discuss

 

[Babble]

Make Felucca to have Trammel rules and give the PvP players a free month of Warhammer!

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

What more can be really discussed?

No offense but maybe players that are new might have something to add.

Otherwise its the same old.

We say stop cheating. It goes on. Some get caught. It goes on.

And even when cheating isnt going on... players get accused of cheating.

To me. It's just here. And aside to no profit in PvP or added content... cheating keeps me away from it.

So I guess I am impacted very little by the cheats.

 

[Picus at the office]

Way to beat a dead horse. This topic is older then a twinky trying to grow mold.

 

[Llewen]

And aside to no profit in PvP or added content... cheating keeps me away from it.

Well that's it exactly isn't it. It would be nice if those who played clean didn't feel like they were the ugly stepsister in pvp. Just once I'd like to gain access to a pvp guild's vent, and not have the conversation inevitably drift to what cheats you should be using. Just once I'd like someone other than myself say, "You'd better not do that," when the new guy brings the topic up.

I have seen a noticeable improvement since the action taken a few weeks ago now, but that isn't enough. If that's all there is, the war is lost. Next to scripting in pvp, in my opinion, the big problem is those using art hacks. The problem is that currently, as far as I know, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about art hacks in the classic client.

As far as I know there is no file integrity check (in fact I'm certain there isn't), and this is something that again, as far as I know, every other online multiplayer game released in the past few years has, or at least has the option for in those games where the public can host servers.

 

[Llewen]

Way to beat a dead horse. This topic is older then a twinky trying to grow mold.

Actually you are wrong. I've seen very little discussion of art hacks and what can be done to get rid of them. I think it's also safe to say that the majority of pvp'rs are using them, and that as such, they are part of what is holding back the acceptance of the enhanced client. That's why I posted this thread.

 

[Lynk]

I agree with the OP, since she makes so many good points.

I think the most important thing that needs to be resolved is posting links to sites that use these cheating programs to operate and generate revenue.

Personally - I'd like to see any player who posts a link to a website that uses cheats to be permanently banned - instantly, without any possibility of it being overturned.

 

[Tanivar]

Personally - I'd like to see any player who posts a link to a website that uses cheats to be permanently banned - instantly, without any possibility of it being overturned.

Couldn't Griefer's have fun with that.

--------------

"Yeah! There's this neat website which has good info and <????> for you and saves you all kinds of time! Post it where all your friends will see it!"

<snicker snicker > "The trusting fool will post that and he's gone!" <ROFL> "One less clueless sucker in the game." <g>

---------------

 

[HD2300]

What's the Next Step?

Release patch every 2 days and the illegal scripting program will be out of action forever.

 

[Lord Chaos]

What's the Next Step?

Release patch every 2 days and the illegal scripting program will be out of action forever.

Still 2 problems with that

1. They only make it go out of Commission on purpose, they could easily remove that and it would work regardless of updates. Its not a functionality restriction.

2. There are several more cheats out there besides that one program.

 

[seapup]

Quick and easy sollution to all this.

Take names and server info and post it all on here so we can all see wtf realy cheats.
Trust me there are lots on GL and I for one are getting tired of it.
Can't play a good game with all the pancakes about speed hacking and stuff.
Get rid of cheaters.Ban the whole guild if it has to go that far.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

The only way to eliminate all of the cheaters. Shut the game down. Otherwise there will always be those who cheat in a game if they can. There isn't a game on the market today that hasn't been cheated in, even free games...la

 

[Elden of Baja]

As far as Image editing being a huge problem I'd have to disagree. The only real benefit that comes from it is the ability to walk through some of the gravestones, which if you actually played the Enhanced Client these Gravestones don't exist anyways.....

As to scripting in pvp, Biggest thing I see is trapped boxers and I can't blame people. Have 3 mages doing nothing but casting "Paralyze" on you over and over again for a while. I wouldn't blame that on the mechanics, I'd blame that on the ability to para Repeatedly. Even dexxers para blows have Cooldowns.

Real Issue - Speeders

End of Statement.

 

[Llewen]

The only way to eliminate all of the cheaters. Shut the game down. Otherwise there will always be those who cheat in a game if they can. There isn't a game on the market today that hasn't been cheated in, even free games...la

Of course that is true, however an effective anti-cheat strategy can make cheating far less common and in the process make the UO game experience a more fair and enjoyable one, and file integrity checks need to be a part of any effective anti-cheat strategy.

To bring the discussion back on topic, is there any reason that file integrity checks are a bad thing? Are they technically too difficult to implement? Are they unfair in some way that I can't think of?

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I agree with the OP, since she makes so many good points.

I think the most important thing that needs to be resolved is posting links to sites that use these cheating programs to operate and generate revenue.

Personally - I'd like to see any player who posts a link to a website that uses cheats to be permanently banned - instantly, without any possibility of it being overturned.

Sadly the cant stop people drop books with web links. Im with you. Its just lets not go crazy banning without fixing the problem.

 

[Llewen]

As far as Image editing being a huge problem I'd have to disagree. The only real benefit that comes from it is the ability to walk through some of the gravestones, which if you actually played the Enhanced Client these Gravestones don't exist anyways.....

As to scripting in pvp, Biggest thing I see is trapped boxers and I can't blame people. Have 3 mages doing nothing but casting "Paralyze" on you over and over again for a while. I wouldn't blame that on the mechanics, I'd blame that on the ability to para Repeatedly. Even dexxers para blows have Cooldowns.

Real Issue - Speeders

End of Statement.

I've had this discussion a number of times and I've said this many times. In the year since I came back to UO I have seen no one, absolutely no one, move faster than I do, unless I'm lagging, and I don't speed hack. I've never seen anyone on foot move any faster than they should, not even once. This is in hundreds of hours of pvp.

On the other hand I've seen plenty of people who magically drank a heal pot the instant they reached a certain level of health, without fail, or drank a cure pot the instant they were poisoned, without fail, or never forgot to use a bandage. Or always, without fail, executed that perfectly timed, devastating combination of attacks the instant they hit someone with a nerve strike, etc. etc.

The point is I've seen plenty of evidence of scripts being used in pvp. I'm sure that speed hacks are also being used, but movement rates are capped server side, that happened over three years ago now if my memory serves me well, and at worst the "speed hacks" are only compensating for lag. In my opinion scripts were a far worse problem than speed hacks have been in the past few years, and kudos to the devs for their efforts thus far in combating them.

But in my opinion art hacks are in wide usage, and they do offer distinct, and unfair advantages. Advantages such as having all fields labelled and colour coded so you can easily tell which are hostile and which are friendly, and who cast which field. That might not seem like a big deal, but it is, and all the little advantages offered by illegal art hacks add up to quite a substantial advantage for those who use them.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

The next step is for you to stop whining and either play the game or quit.

 

[Arcus]

The next step is for you to stop whining and either play the game or quit.

Spoken like a cheater. Its funny how its really easy to tell who wants to push this issue under the rug. Its not much of a stretch to assume that those same people are also the cheaters, otherwise why try an inhibit progress?

 

[ress me plz]

Win XD

 

[Picus at the office]

Here is an idea: Why not stay out of the conversation since you obviously dislike the topic? Other than trying to irritate people whats your point of posting if you think the topic has no merit?

I love the topic but the OP postings have gone beyond absured. I'm sorry that my thread count isn't as high as some of the other members but my thought's are just as silly as the next.

I've read the OP stating that speeding isn't a issue but then says that they have been in vent servers listening to people talking about cheating but never has heard this? Get real. This has been the single greatest problem with UO in the last few years. The great scripting issue is next to finished. No one buys ingots or wood save for boat repairs or making a new char and Bod's are useless thanks to imbuing. Though I'm sure that there are a few people fishing now adays simple because it can be done. When was the last time you saw a gold farmer? Scripting has only been truelly used to get around the mindless problem of working skills in the last few (2)years I'd be willing to say.

The only thing left is pvp pot chuggers and box trippers which only a few people use. I've stated many times that if the only updated client, the CC, had a decent interface which was not reliant upon my spending of $15 for UO-A even less people would use healers.

Graphic mods are far from as used as the OP seems to think they are. I've known of one person out of the hundreds that modded the fields most others have only changed the desolation file to allow for Fel to look like Tram, simple and legal.

 

[Llewen]

I love the topic but the OP postings have gone beyond absured. I'm sorry that my thread count isn't as high as some of the other members but my thought's are just as silly as the next.

I've read the OP stating that speeding isn't a issue but then says that they have been in vent servers listening to people talking about cheating but never has heard this? Get real. This has been the single greatest problem with UO in the last few years. The great scripting issue is next to finished. No one buys ingots or wood save for boat repairs or making a new char and Bod's are useless thanks to imbuing. Though I'm sure that there are a few people fishing now adays simple because it can be done. When was the last time you saw a gold farmer? Scripting has only been truelly used to get around the mindless problem of working skills in the last few (2)years I'd be willing to say.

The only thing left is pvp pot chuggers and box trippers which only a few people use. I've stated many times that if the only updated client, the CC, had a decent interface which was not reliant upon my spending of $15 for UO-A even less people would use healers.

Graphic mods are far from as used as the OP seems to think they are. I've known of one person out of the hundreds that modded the fields most others have only changed the desolation file to allow for Fel to look like Tram, simple and legal.

I haven't stayed in the vents of any pvp guild very long, precisely because the cheat talk annoys the hell out of me, but in the time that I have been in a pvp guild's vent I have never heard anyone suggest that someone else use a speeder, or offer advice on which speeder they should use. What I've heard more than once is people talking about which scripts they should use, and how they should use them. And I've seen the screen shots from pvp'rs posted on private boards. I don't think, this isn't a guess, I know that art hacks are a big deal and a lot of people are using them.

And it does stand to reason that people who use pvp scripts and art hacks would want to deflect attention away from the topic, and as much as possible obfuscate and confuse the discussion around it, which was why I posted my note to the moderators. Every thread posted on the subject attracts the same cadre of dedicated trolls and people who seem determined that the light of day never be shone on it.

 

[Lynk]

And it does stand to reason that people who use pvp scripts and art hacks would want to deflect attention away from the topic,

Your 10 page posts that everyone skips over is enough deflection.

PvP scripts really aren't a problem. They can all be tricked to cause more harm than good.

The real problem is the scripts and automated programs that people don't share and that aren't available for public usage. Farming 15k silver an hour unattended for days on end. AFK soloing champ spawns, etc.

I disagree that Speeder isn't an issue. I ping 30 to East coast and 60 to west coast. West coast can be blamed on my lagging, but east coast servers I never hiccup when I run and there are plenty of people that can outrun me with ease. They skip a couple tiles when they cut corners.

I do actually agree that an integrity check for the art files would be beneficial. It doesn't give a huge advantage, but it is an advantage when pushing a choke and being able to target tiles with fields that other players aren't able to.

Even with all of the 'problems' above, I still find PvP fun. IMO speedhacking is the biggest problem.

 

[TMC Crowley]

 

[Elden of Baja]

Never Missing a Bandi, That means you should know the exact moment that bandi is about to go off and can attempt a poison/heal a half a second before hand.

Plus Everything is Object Timer Orientated, you can only use 1 object every second. So, its one second Before you can use that Bandi after Using your Cure Pot, and Another Second Before Using That Apple, and if you happen to need a trapped box inbetween those you are SOL.

If you aren't seeing people outrunning you, then lucky you. I've seen 5 guildmates all chasing a target and all of them lose it simply because it outran them. And all of them live on the coast that the server is on and ping less than 30. Meanwhile one of the players they chase, who was a former guildmate, is on the opposite coast of the server and outrunning them.

After all the issues with UO, you think their ability to actually cap speed and prevent methods from getting around it aren't possible? It fixed the Devastating Speeders that would let you cast a flamestrike pop into someones screen, hit them with it, cast a flamestrike, catch up to them (They were running in one direction), and hit them with it again, and repeat!

 

[Prince Caspian]

Yeah, I still remember all the hubbub about PunkBuster. It'll stop them cheating bastards, and when we get 'im, we're gonna toss em in Azkaban, yessireebob!

Then all of a sudden a bunch of cryptic messages that PunkBuster wasn't gonna work, and then some vague promises other countercheating measures would be explored.

Sure.

How's that "search for the real killers," going, OJ?

 

[Llewen]

What I've heard more than once is people talking about which scripts they should use, and how they should use them.

I feel the need to clarify. I've heard people discussing both pvp and non-pvp oriented scripts, more than once. I've heard talk about training scripts, health scripts, box scripts, and a few years ago house placement and looting scripts for use at idocs.

 

[Llewen]

The real problem is the scripts and automated programs that people don't share and that aren't available for public usage. Farming 15k silver an hour unattended for days on end. AFK soloing champ spawns, etc.

Actually I agree that the best scripts are not those that are most widely available, and for those who have some scripting skill even if they use scripts that are widely available, they will have customized them and tweaked them to suit their needs and to deal with the ways they might commonly be foiled. Which was why I was somewhat sceptical when Cal said that they were actually going after specific scripts.

At that point I guess you just have to hope that they can also spot those scripts that are not widely distributed.

 

[Llewen]

If you aren't seeing people outrunning you, then lucky you. I've seen 5 guildmates all chasing a target and all of them lose it simply because it outran them. And all of them live on the coast that the server is on and ping less than 30. Meanwhile one of the players they chase, who was a former guildmate, is on the opposite coast of the server and outrunning them.

After hundreds of hours of pvp, and after pvp'ing against people who have transferred in from many different shards, and after pvp'ing against many who clearly were cheating and would use any advantage they could get, legal or otherwise, it isn't luck. I'm not seeing people moving faster than the maximum rate because it isn't happening, not because I'm "lucky".

I use the enhanced client, and it handles lag differently than the classic client. For starters it is less affected by lag, but if you are experiencing significant lag, you don't slow down, you just stop momentarily. With the classic client if you experience even the slightest lag you will slow down and most of time for people with new computers and good connections, they don't even realize it's happening.

How do I know this? I know this because I can outrun everyone on my shard, except for one other player who has also recently started using the enhanced client. When I am trying to get away from someone who is using the classic client they may keep up to me for a while, but I will always eventually lose them, unless I am experiencing one of my extremely rare serious bouts of lag.

I will lose them because of the auto avoid code for obstacles, but I will also lose them because they will always lag at some point, and I'm betting that most of the time they won't even realize it is happening. I will be running away from them and they may keep pace with me for a few screens, or even a few dozen screens, but eventually they will start to fall behind. I can't predict exactly when it is going to happen, but it is as inevitable as winter that they will eventually lag and I will lose them.

And just to be clear, I don't use a speed hack, and I never have. Speed hacking is not the issue that so many think it is. The real issue is an outdated client that handles network latency badly.

 

[Korik Bloodguard]

I don't think the developers have any intention of getting rid of cheating entirely. While some do find it frustrating to encounter a cheater in a competitive environment, I think scripting, for example, is here to stay because the developers realize that their skill building system is completely disconnected from any meaningful progression in the world. The developers, however, can't admit this else the onus would be on them to retrofit the system, which is never going to happen.

For example, in WoW even though the majority of interesting play happens when one's character is completed, the road towards that completion is engaging and meaningful - learning how to play one's class, interacting with the world, etc...

However, in UO there is no such engagement. A character is basically worthless until it's finished - especially in the any competitive environment - and I think the developers realize this. Skill building in UO is unnecessarily tedious and I think a lot of people are unwilling to reinforce the system by participating in it as is intended.

So, in terms of applications such as speed hacks (I've never seen anyone use them that I wasn't able to kill) sure, those may get broken, but macroing... I don't think so.

I say we all need to learn to stop worrying and embrace the bomb.

 

[Llewen]

However, in UO there is no such engagement. A character is basically worthless until it's finished - especially in the any competitive environment - and I think the developers realize this. Skill building in UO is unnecessarily tedious and I think a lot of people are unwilling to reinforce the system by participating in it as is intended.

This is nonsense. You can access more of the game's content meaningfully during skill development than you could ever dream of in WoW. The ones that primarily think a character is "worthless until it's finished" are pvp'rs. Outside of pvp there are many interesting ways to train skills if that is what you choose to do. The devs can't be blamed for the fact that most players, and especially most pvp'rs, choose the most anti-social and mind numbingly boring ways to train their characters possible.

 

[Vaelix]

Faster, EC, No Speedhack, Fun Stuff

It seems like you are not against "Speeder" because you have basically a built in version in the form of the EC.

I don't really like the Idea of being forced into that trash client to keep up with people who are pinging Higher than I am.

 

[Llewen]

It seems like you are not against "Speeder" because you have basically a built in version in the form of the EC.

The enhanced client doesn't allow you to move any faster than you can on the classic client. The big difference comes with the auto avoid code, the lack of tombstones in Felucca and the fact that it is less affected by all forms of lag, including network latency. If you use the enhanced client you will be moving at the maximum allowable speed more of the time than you are with the classic client.

I'm not in favour of "speed hacks", I just know based on what I have seen in game that they aren't the huge issue that so many think they are. My guess is they are for the most part simply compensating for slow downs in movement in a client that handles network latency, and probably other forms of lag as well, very badly.

 

[Vaelix]

The enhanced client doesn't allow you to move any faster than you can on the classic client. The big difference comes with the auto avoid code, the lack of tombstones in Felucca and the fact that it is less affected by all forms of lag, including network latency. If you use the enhanced client you will be moving at the maximum allowable speed more of the time than you are with the classic client.

I'm not in favour of "speed hacks", I just know based on what I have seen in game that they aren't the huge issue that so many think they are. My guess is they are for the most part simply compensating for slow downs in movement in a client that handles network latency, and probably other forms of lag as well, very badly.

I like how you ignored the second part of my post which basically counters everything said right here.

You dont have a problem because you are a User of EC, which has "Speedhack" like capabilities.

Most of us dont want to be forced into that Client to be able to compete on a level with players who are doing it illegally.

How about we turn this around, we force you onto the CC with the people you are fighting using speedhack?

 

[Lady Storm]

I have sat here reading all this...............

I think to understand about how EA/OSI has handled the business with cheating players.
You can and will never know who is banned and why. Period. Its a privacy issue and even EA cant cross that line without having a very tough time in court on their hands.

Yes yes I know they can oust any player from UO with a wave of their royal finger on the delete button if EA so chose to. But there are some constraints Even GODS must go by.
If they didnt UO would have been dead as would any other game out there many years ago.
You do have some rights, and most of the cheaters know this.

Most times if banned they only hit 1 account, and you can bet your bottom dollar they have more than 1 account. Most have a second or even a third account in the wings. Some even have a golden parashute, it was once called the "goodie two shoes account".

Unlinked to the hell raiser account, they had a place to safely hide their mills and goodies free from GM/Dev fingers. If they lost the cheating account it was no big deal... 3 days later they would be back in business with a new "HellRaiser" and EA would be back to trying to catch him red handed again on a unlinked account cheating.
BTW....
Did you forget they need to catch you at it?? Remember the GM's telling you that they needed to SEE the offending player??

UO should have set up programs to do the work of many of the apps that the players want to use this might have stemmed the cheating. Cheating is universal no matter where you go, this is true in RL as in this game.
You cant escape it, this is hard to say but we bred it into our children to be competive and goal orientated.
Its sad to say but people are bound to cheat in one form or another.
You cant dangle a golden carrot in peoples faces and not have people do anything to get it. EA cant stop the cheating, your asking them to police your children, and you.

They have caught players with the new program and for your info its still running.. and will continue to do so as part of how UO works. So to say ok they caught "johnny" this week but they wont catch the next "johnny" doing the same thing next week is wrong. It wasnt a one time thing. So ...kiddies did you hear about the Gamer HD?? 7200 rpm and speeds you wont beleave...... yes the computer is faster. Now are you going to berate that??

 

[cdavbar]

Actually you are wrong. I've seen very little discussion of art hacks and what can be done to get rid of them. I think it's also safe to say that the majority of pvp'rs are using them, and that as such, they are part of what is holding back the acceptance of the enhanced client. That's why I posted this thread.

Maybe because the discussion of said hacks is against stratics RoC? Also becuase it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tell what someone changes a said graphic to in a their clients! Most people the "stump" hack you speak of is to reduce lag on crappy internet speeds. Yes there are more hacks that allow you to do more things than change a little visulization to make your speed a little better to better compete with people but when it all comes down to it, the code in UO is way to old, a lot of these things can not be detected, so like many people have said you are just .,....

.....


.....


....

 

[Llewen]

...it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tell what someone changes a said graphic to in a their clients!

No actually it isn't. All they need to do is what most online game developers have been doing for quite a few years, hold all client art files in an archive that is accessed dynamically when the client is started up, and do checksums on those archives. It's a hell of a lot more straight forward than third party cheat detection, by a country mile, and then some.

Most people the "stump" hack you speak of is to reduce lag on crappy internet speeds. Yes there are more hacks that allow you to do more things than change a little visulization to make your speed a little better to better compete with people...

Actually art hacks will have no effect on, and are completely unaffected by network latency and the use of bandwidth. That's another fine mythconception. The only effect art hacks will have on lag in the classic client are on really old computers with really slow processors.

The advantage offered by art hacks are various, but some of them are very significant. The main advantage offered by the stump hack specifically was an unobstructed, uncluttered view of the battlefield. It also made it impossible for anyone to use terrain to do things like hide dropped objects.

Claiming that the stump hack lessens lag is for the most part a smoke screen and an excuse. It's a cheat that does offer significant advantages to those who use it.

 

[AesSedai]

- Aye, I agree with the spirit of this thread (as I have for more than the decade that I've been aware of, and vocally rallying for support for, people illegally altering their client in advantageous ways..). Stay optimistic my fair playing fellows.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

what does stump art do besides change graphics? I thought it just made it easier to see where you were going? Getting rid of the 'canopy' seems like an advantage, because the other person can't see while under it. Isn't the stump'd art still impassable?

 

[Llewen]

I haven't stayed in the vents of any pvp guild very long, precisely because the cheat talk annoys the hell out of me, but in the time that I have been in a pvp guild's vent I have never heard anyone suggest that someone else use a speeder, or offer advice on which speeder they should use.

Actually now that I think of it, this isn't true. A number of years ago I did hear pvp'rs talking about their use of a certain application that included some kind of "speed hack" functionality. That was, I believe, four to six years ago now, and because that was before movement was capped server side, it could very well be that it did actually allow you to move faster than anyone could who wasn't running a speed hack.

 

[Llewen]

what does stump art do besides change graphics?

I believe I already addressed this.

The main advantage offered by the stump hack specifically was an unobstructed, uncluttered view of the battlefield. It also made it impossible for anyone to use terrain to do things like hide dropped objects.

 

[seapup]

Did you forget they need to catch you at it?? Remember the GM's telling you that they needed to SEE the offending player??

Where are the GM's?
Show me GM's that are in this game.
There should be GM's 24/7 if it wants to catch these people.

 

[Korik Bloodguard]

This is nonsense. You can access more of the game's content meaningfully during skill development than you could ever dream of in WoW. The ones that primarily think a character is "worthless until it's finished" are pvp'rs. Outside of pvp there are many interesting ways to train skills if that is what you choose to do. The devs can't be blamed for the fact that most players, and especially most pvp'rs, choose the most anti-social and mind numbingly boring ways to train their characters possible.

I've got to disagree and here are my reasons:
And to disclose, I've been playing since the beta, primarily a PvPer but I've done every bit of PvE content as well with many different character permutations.

1) UO may have more permutations in terms of skill combinations for accessing content, but it isn't meaningful in the same way. In WoW there is a progression which actively engages you in content - forces you really - while you build your character; you either instance, grind, or quest, either way you MUST be engaged in the content which constantly changes (this is the most important part), the most efficient path is with a combination of the three.

In UO, when one is building a melee skill, sure you can hit anything in your level range - ratmen, lizardmen, ogres, a golem - to gain skill, but if you're working something like ninjitsu you need to use the skill appropriate for your level over and over again to the exclusion of all others. From say 80-100 you'll need to use your level-specific skill literally thousands of times at the cost of others.

Basically in WoW you use your basic skill set to progress through content at a consistent rate, in UO you use a single determined move to gain in one skill and you can only progress after you've used your level-appropriate move enough times. To get a little more complex, in WoW your skills are a means to an end - leveling; in UO your skills are the end itself.

And just to throw it in there, WoW's questing is far better designed than UO's, especially the latest expansion's.

2) Crafting: Crafting is another example of a teleological skill set - it's really only truly useful when it's maxed. Nobody who values their investment is going to burn a kit or runic on any character who can't craft exceptionally. No imbuer is going to try and make some nice 500+ weight items, wasting millions of gold in resources. Sure you can craft non-exceptional mediocre stuff but why bother when good gear is so cheap now? A GM suit is basically free, magic weapons are a dime a dozen from vendors - there is no reason at all to use a non-magical, non-exceptional katana which you have personally crafted out of the thousands of other useless items which you just smelted back to start the cycle again.

Crafting at this point of the game - after 13 years - is only useful when maxed. It's a grind and that's all.

Lots of other skills suck to do naturally, take poisoning for example. It's just not really worth it until the end.

Basically, building skill takes away from actually playing the game. When you're finished you can do anything you want without the carpel tunnel. I also wouldn't restrict macroing to just PvPers - Powergaming isn't restricted to any playstyle


Edit: Just a last thought. I wanted to respond to your argument that macroing is antisocial - I don't know about your server but at least on Catskills you'd be very hard pressed to find people in a low level tram dungeon, or really many people in a dungeon at all, other than a few farming spots. It's extremely hard to find people to level with now a days so macroing isn't such an anti-social option at all. In fact it gets you into the game faster, allowing you to participate.

I agree that your argument could have worked years ago, but certainly in my experience, and I do have 13 years of experience of both PvM and PvP, right now it's just not feasible to say it's anti-social to macro, rather, the opposite.

 

[Llewen]

I don't really like the Idea of being forced into that trash client to keep up with people who are pinging Higher than I am.

I like how you ignored the second part of my post which basically counters everything said right here.

You dont have a problem because you are a User of EC, which has "Speedhack" like capabilities.

Most of us dont want to be forced into that Client to be able to compete on a level with players who are doing it illegally.

I didn't respond to it because it was mostly an anti-EC troll, and I didn't really think it was terribly important, it's also hard to see how it "counters" anything, because you aren't saying much of anything. You don't like the enhanced client. You've made your point, was there anything else you'd like to add to that?

No one's forcing you to do anything, but you have to accept that your choices have consequences. If you refuse to use anything but a fourteen year old client, you have to accept that technically it isn't going to be as advanced as a client that is only two years old. If you want the benefits of the enhanced client, they are as available to you as they are to anyone, and you won't risk having your account banned for taking advantage of them.

How about we turn this around, we force you onto the CC with the people you are fighting using speedhack?

It's a stupid question and a moot point. No one's going to force me into doing anything, just as they aren't going to force you into doing anything. One thing I can tell you though, at this point if the only option available is to play the classic client, I'll be hanging up my spell book and moving on. I won't play UO on that client anymore. I'd rather stick forks in my eyes...

 

[Vaelix]

You've made your point, was there anything else you'd like to add to that?

Yeah sure, How about the Fact that the EC gives Distinct speed advantages that are generally only achievable through illegal means?

Or the Fact that the EC offers an advanced "Macroing" System which can almost be used to AFK, something else that is only achieved through illegal means. (Outside of Basic Action Wait Target macros through the actual CC Macros)

Or maybe the fact that you can Zoom your Screen out to a Much further range(Or Resolution), something else that only achievable through illegal means.

To me it looks like the only cheating that you are against is the type that the EC doesnt offer you passively.

 

[Llewen]

You've made your point, was there anything else you'd like to add to that?

Yeah sure, How about the Fact that the EC gives Distinct speed advantages that are generally only achievable through illegal means?

There was a video posted in another similar thread that showed two characters racing side by side, one in the enhanced client, and one in the classic client. Guess what? They were both going the same speed. The movement advantages offered by the enhanced client are exactly as I have stated.

Or the Fact that the EC offers an advanced "Macroing" System which can almost be used to AFK, something else that is only achieved through illegal means. (Outside of Basic Action Wait Target macros through the actual CC Macros)

You can't "almost" be afk, anymore than you can "almost" be pregnant. You can repeat actions up to 10 times with enhanced client macros. You can do the same thing with UO Assist, it's just not as convenient. There are plenty of advantages to the enhanced client macro system, none of which amount to any kind of a cheat, but all of which are a good reason to try out the enhanced client.

Or maybe the fact that you can Zoom your Screen out to a Much further range(Or Resolution), something else that only achievable through illegal means.

The enhanced client is a modern client. You can take full advantage of modern displays with it, including wide screens and high resolutions. Those are good reasons to check out the enhanced client, they are perfectly legal, and they certainly aren't cheats. If you refuse to take advantage of them, that's your prerogative, and entirely up to you, but you have no legitimate reason to complain when others do.

And all this is well and truly off topic. The only thing that is on topic about it is that these are the kinds of things that cheaters use to excuse their conduct. There should be client file integrity checks for both clients, so that art hacks are not possible in either client. I don't know if there are art hacks available for the enhanced client, but as long as there are no client file integrity checks, it is a distinct possibility that some day there will be.

 

[Vaelix]

There was a video posted in another similar thread that showed two characters racing side by side, one in the enhanced client, and one in the classic client. Guess what? They were both going the same speed. The movement advantages offered by the enhanced client are exactly as I have stated.



You can't "almost" be afk, anymore than you can "almost" be pregnant. You can repeat actions up to 10 times with enhanced client macros. You can do the same thing with UO Assist, it's just not as convenient. There are plenty of advantages to the enhanced client macro system, none of which amount to any kind of a cheat, but all of which are a good reason to try out the enhanced client.



The enhanced client is a modern client. You can take full advantage of modern displays with it, including wide screens and high resolutions. Those are good reasons to check out the enhanced client, they are perfectly legal, and they certainly aren't cheats. If you refuse to take advantage of them, that's your prerogative, and entirely up to you, but you have no legitimate reason to complain when others do.

Justification of Unfair Advantages which are only attainable through otherwise illegal means.

So otherwise Illegal Functions and Features are "Perfectly Legal" When branded under the label "EC" however when the Exact Same function/feature is provided by a Separate program (That EA doesnt make money off of) it is deemed illegal.

How exactly does that make sense?

 

[Vaelix]

And all this is well and truly off topic. The only thing that is on topic about it is that these are the kinds of things that cheaters use to excuse their conduct. There should be client file integrity checks for both clients, so that art hacks are not possible in either client. I don't know if there are art hacks available for the enhanced client, but as long as there are no client file integrity checks, it is a distinct possibility that some day there will be.

As i said This is a "Cheat" that the EC doesn't passively offer you, which is why you are against this and not others.

 

[Vaelix]

You can't "almost" be afk, anymore than you can "almost" be pregnant.

Random note : Strong Reading Comprehension Skills are generally a good thing.

Or the Fact that the EC offers an advanced "Macroing" System which can almost be used to AFK, something else that is only achieved through illegal means. (Outside of Basic Action Wait Target macros through the actual CC Macros)


Nothing about "Almost AFK" in there..

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

I like how you said that you can outrun everyone because you use the enhanced client, but that the enhanced client doesn't make you move any faster.

I've PVP'd in the last two years in three PVP guilds. In vents, I've heard people talk about speeders, and I've head people talk about scripting. Never have I heard mention of using the graphic changers. So I actually don't think you're correct.

I think the biggest issue is speed hacking. One of my friends has 12 ping and yet he is outran quite often by those using a speed hack. People even use them at Luna bank. If people are actually scripting during their PVPing, it's actually a disadvantage, imo, because those scripts are prone to errors and they die a lot more easily.

 

[cdavbar]

You can't "almost" be afk, anymore than you can "almost" be pregnant. You can repeat actions up to 10 times with enhanced client macros.

Ok I dont think you really know what the hell your talking about now. First off, the "mods" for the EC are written in LUA, extremely easy to write scripting mods for the EC, to work with the EC, that are undetectable by the EC since NO THIRD PARTY PROGRAM is needed to run these "legal" mods.

Next, what the heck are you talking about repeat actions up to ten times? I can make a simple Mystic Trainer that will play for an hour strait using the EC macro builder, it does take a few min to set up but is easily done.

"Cast" (insert spell here), "wait for targ", "target", "delay" (set delay based on your latency and FC/FCR,

NOW HERES THE FUN PART

keep building your macro list like this over and over, just for fun ten times. NOW click repeat ten times, youve just made it cast 100 times before you have to hit a button.

What about mana? okay find out how many times you can cast the spell before needing to med, after that many casts put in a med macro with enough delays afterwords to keep from getting interupted.

TA DA!

I love it when people come on here, ask not to get thread locked and get everyone else's responses deleted for trolling, and then they have no clue what they are talking about.