G
Guest
Guest
...
The difference is that player 2 does not use UO as a source of income.
Fail.
The difference is that player 2 does not use UO as a source of income.
Fail.
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Selling gold destroys the uo community?
- Thread starter bordegan
- Start date
- Watchers 0
G
Guest
Guest
...
I'd like to be friends with someone #2 in game, you know, do some Peerless with them, maybe attempt some Fel champ spawns...because they are a UO "player". I'd be afraid someone #1 was only interested in me in game because my stuff equals $$$$ to them. Because they are a UO "worker".
Fail.
I'd like to be friends with someone #2 in game, you know, do some Peerless with them, maybe attempt some Fel champ spawns...because they are a UO "player". I'd be afraid someone #1 was only interested in me in game because my stuff equals $$$$ to them. Because they are a UO "worker".
Fail.
G
Guest
Guest
...
There's no player inside the game they are outside. And they make difference from outside.
Also Fail.
What do you mean by inside/outside?
Inside the game, there is an event happening in both scenario #1 and scenario #2.
In both cases it is THE EXACT SAME EVENT. And in both cases it is a 100% legal event.
From an ingame perspective, there is ZERO difference between a gold seller and someone who gives the same amount away. All the game sees is gold going from Player A to Player B.
Also, according to the game, it is gold that ALREADY EXISTS within the confines of the game. It is not gold that was created out of thin air for the purpose of transferring from Player A to Player B.
The PROBLEM arises when a player uses exploitive measures (duping, exploiting a flawed system, or scripting) to acquire the gold in which they are selling... or giving away.
Paris says she'd rather meet the person giving away the gold.
So what would she say if the Gold seller obtained their gold through legal gameplay and the person giving the gold away duped it all. Does she feel the same then?
The problem IS NOT the gold selling.
The problem IS NOT giving gold away.
The problem IS NOT transferring gold from one player to another.
The problem IS exploiting, duping, and scripting to create gold at an exponentially faster rate than is uhmanly possible within the legal confines of the game.
All of the personal judgments are the problem of the person making the judgment and quite frankly, some people need to consider their words and accusations along those lines.
There's no player inside the game they are outside. And they make difference from outside.
Also Fail.
What do you mean by inside/outside?
Inside the game, there is an event happening in both scenario #1 and scenario #2.
In both cases it is THE EXACT SAME EVENT. And in both cases it is a 100% legal event.
From an ingame perspective, there is ZERO difference between a gold seller and someone who gives the same amount away. All the game sees is gold going from Player A to Player B.
Also, according to the game, it is gold that ALREADY EXISTS within the confines of the game. It is not gold that was created out of thin air for the purpose of transferring from Player A to Player B.
The PROBLEM arises when a player uses exploitive measures (duping, exploiting a flawed system, or scripting) to acquire the gold in which they are selling... or giving away.
Paris says she'd rather meet the person giving away the gold.
So what would she say if the Gold seller obtained their gold through legal gameplay and the person giving the gold away duped it all. Does she feel the same then?
The problem IS NOT the gold selling.
The problem IS NOT giving gold away.
The problem IS NOT transferring gold from one player to another.
The problem IS exploiting, duping, and scripting to create gold at an exponentially faster rate than is uhmanly possible within the legal confines of the game.
All of the personal judgments are the problem of the person making the judgment and quite frankly, some people need to consider their words and accusations along those lines.
P
Paris_Hilton
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
...
I'd like to be friends with someone #2 in game, you know, do some Peerless with them, maybe attempt some Fel champ spawns...because they are a UO "player". I'd be afraid someone #1 was only interested in me in game because my stuff equals $$$$ to them. Because they are a UO "worker".
Fail.
[/ QUOTE ]
I always feel like saying:
I Surrender!
When F words get tossed my direction.
But in this case,
I think I''ll just laugh.
...
I'd like to be friends with someone #2 in game, you know, do some Peerless with them, maybe attempt some Fel champ spawns...because they are a UO "player". I'd be afraid someone #1 was only interested in me in game because my stuff equals $$$$ to them. Because they are a UO "worker".
Fail.
[/ QUOTE ]
I always feel like saying:
I Surrender!
When F words get tossed my direction.
But in this case,
I think I''ll just laugh.
G
Guest
Guest
...
If you fail to comprehend the question being asked, that's not my fault.
However I have provided the answer for you with some additional content for thought as well.
I can't, nor am I trying to make you like gold selling or people who sell gold, however your single-minded dislike of them in the scenario provided could lead to your endorsement of a duper or exploiter and the scorn of the person engaging in a completely legal game activity.
The point of the question was to be able to think beyond your own knee jerk dislike of someone for engaging in a legal behaviour.
If you fail to comprehend the question being asked, that's not my fault.
However I have provided the answer for you with some additional content for thought as well.
I can't, nor am I trying to make you like gold selling or people who sell gold, however your single-minded dislike of them in the scenario provided could lead to your endorsement of a duper or exploiter and the scorn of the person engaging in a completely legal game activity.
The point of the question was to be able to think beyond your own knee jerk dislike of someone for engaging in a legal behaviour.
P
Paris_Hilton
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
...
There's no player inside the game they are outside. And they make difference from outside.
Also Fail.
What do you mean by inside/outside?
Inside the game, there is an event happening in both scenario #1 and scenario #2.
In both cases it is THE EXACT SAME EVENT. And in both cases it is a 100% legal event.
From an ingame perspective, there is ZERO difference between a gold seller and someone who gives the same amount away. All the game sees is gold going from Player A to Player B.
Also, according to the game, it is gold that ALREADY EXISTS within the confines of the game. It is not gold that was created out of thin air for the purpose of transferring from Player A to Player B.
The PROBLEM arises when a player uses exploitive measures (duping, exploiting a flawed system, or scripting) to acquire the gold in which they are selling... or giving away.
Paris says she'd rather meet the person giving away the gold.
So what would she say if the Gold seller obtained their gold through legal gameplay and the person giving the gold away duped it all. Does she feel the same then?
The problem IS NOT the gold selling.
The problem IS NOT giving gold away.
The problem IS NOT transferring gold from one player to another.
The problem IS exploiting, duping, and scripting to create gold at an exponentially faster rate than is uhmanly possible within the legal confines of the game.
All of the personal judgments are the problem of the person making the judgment and quite frankly, some people need to consider their words and accusations along those lines.
[/ QUOTE ]
"So what would she say if the Gold seller obtained their gold through legal gameplay and the person giving the gold away duped it all. Does she feel the same then?"
There you go again acting like I never played UO.
Why do you assume that I don't know what goes on within the game?
Take for instance last night.
Caught a tailor bod gathering scripter.
Their script was running 13 newb tailors through Delucia, using 2 recall spots in the back of the building. I wrote down the names of ALL 13 newb chars and the times that they recalled in.
One hour later they repeated their recalling in, only this time their recall spots were blocked. Love those bagballs.
Removed a bagball after 48 minutes and here comes bod collector number 10, 48 minutes behind. I had my daughter come watch and told her the name of the one who would recall in next when I picked up the bagball, and sure enough I was right.
So we got us a confirmed scripter here, I mean if they were attended they never bothered to come see why their recall spots were blocked. We paged on them, though some of the bod collector names the paging system could not find EVEN though we targeted the scripting chars as they recalled in.
Then I was going to change chars and log at Delucia inn and surprise!, there's old number 12 bod collector, trying to recall to the inn, but couldn't because her 2 recall spots were blocked.
We sat and watched this char cast sacred journey until it ran out of tithing points, it still continued to cast but lost it's sparkle and noise and finally, several hours after paging, the char poofed.
Did the GM come and catch them? Hope so.
Figure this, 13 bods, maybe 13 tailor AND 13 smith, EVERY HOUR ON THE HOUR, using this script, 24 hours a day, times 7 days a week.
I get 2184, all gotten while unattended.
So ask me how I know gold sellers cheat.
I play UO.
That's how.
...
There's no player inside the game they are outside. And they make difference from outside.
Also Fail.
What do you mean by inside/outside?
Inside the game, there is an event happening in both scenario #1 and scenario #2.
In both cases it is THE EXACT SAME EVENT. And in both cases it is a 100% legal event.
From an ingame perspective, there is ZERO difference between a gold seller and someone who gives the same amount away. All the game sees is gold going from Player A to Player B.
Also, according to the game, it is gold that ALREADY EXISTS within the confines of the game. It is not gold that was created out of thin air for the purpose of transferring from Player A to Player B.
The PROBLEM arises when a player uses exploitive measures (duping, exploiting a flawed system, or scripting) to acquire the gold in which they are selling... or giving away.
Paris says she'd rather meet the person giving away the gold.
So what would she say if the Gold seller obtained their gold through legal gameplay and the person giving the gold away duped it all. Does she feel the same then?
The problem IS NOT the gold selling.
The problem IS NOT giving gold away.
The problem IS NOT transferring gold from one player to another.
The problem IS exploiting, duping, and scripting to create gold at an exponentially faster rate than is uhmanly possible within the legal confines of the game.
All of the personal judgments are the problem of the person making the judgment and quite frankly, some people need to consider their words and accusations along those lines.
[/ QUOTE ]
"So what would she say if the Gold seller obtained their gold through legal gameplay and the person giving the gold away duped it all. Does she feel the same then?"
There you go again acting like I never played UO.
Why do you assume that I don't know what goes on within the game?
Take for instance last night.
Caught a tailor bod gathering scripter.
Their script was running 13 newb tailors through Delucia, using 2 recall spots in the back of the building. I wrote down the names of ALL 13 newb chars and the times that they recalled in.
One hour later they repeated their recalling in, only this time their recall spots were blocked. Love those bagballs.
Removed a bagball after 48 minutes and here comes bod collector number 10, 48 minutes behind. I had my daughter come watch and told her the name of the one who would recall in next when I picked up the bagball, and sure enough I was right.
So we got us a confirmed scripter here, I mean if they were attended they never bothered to come see why their recall spots were blocked. We paged on them, though some of the bod collector names the paging system could not find EVEN though we targeted the scripting chars as they recalled in.
Then I was going to change chars and log at Delucia inn and surprise!, there's old number 12 bod collector, trying to recall to the inn, but couldn't because her 2 recall spots were blocked.
We sat and watched this char cast sacred journey until it ran out of tithing points, it still continued to cast but lost it's sparkle and noise and finally, several hours after paging, the char poofed.
Did the GM come and catch them? Hope so.
Figure this, 13 bods, maybe 13 tailor AND 13 smith, EVERY HOUR ON THE HOUR, using this script, 24 hours a day, times 7 days a week.
I get 2184, all gotten while unattended.
So ask me how I know gold sellers cheat.
I play UO.
That's how.
G
Guest
Guest
...
So instead of addressing the topic you pat yourself on the back for identifying and watching a scriptor.
That's nice and all, but completely off the specific topic.
The topic was making personal judgments on people engaged in a legal game mechanic (scripting as we all know is technically ILLEGAL... specifically unattended scripting).
Noone in this thread who is arguing in favor of selling gold for real money (whether they engage in it or not) is trying to defend, excuse, or justify exploiting, duping, or scripting.
We are in fact attempting to point out that there is a difference between those activities and the completely outside of game process that may take place to facilitate the exchange of gold between one player and another.
It's not what is done with the gold or other resource that is the issue, it's how that resource is obtained to begin with.
So instead of addressing the topic you pat yourself on the back for identifying and watching a scriptor.
That's nice and all, but completely off the specific topic.
The topic was making personal judgments on people engaged in a legal game mechanic (scripting as we all know is technically ILLEGAL... specifically unattended scripting).
Noone in this thread who is arguing in favor of selling gold for real money (whether they engage in it or not) is trying to defend, excuse, or justify exploiting, duping, or scripting.
We are in fact attempting to point out that there is a difference between those activities and the completely outside of game process that may take place to facilitate the exchange of gold between one player and another.
It's not what is done with the gold or other resource that is the issue, it's how that resource is obtained to begin with.
G
Guest
Guest
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that SOME gold-sellers may cheat or profit from other's cheating.
But it is the cheating and exploiting that is causing the problems, not the selling of gold. Players would cheat to the same extent they do now, even if there was no RL market for in-game goods.
Honest players that want to save a little time or enhance their entertainment by purchasing gold or in-game items with RL $$ are not ruining the community, cheaters are.
Not all RL business owners are unscrupulous, and obviously they're in business to profit. Not all customers are thieves. Why must some assume it's this way with UO buyers and sellers?
But it is the cheating and exploiting that is causing the problems, not the selling of gold. Players would cheat to the same extent they do now, even if there was no RL market for in-game goods.
Honest players that want to save a little time or enhance their entertainment by purchasing gold or in-game items with RL $$ are not ruining the community, cheaters are.
Not all RL business owners are unscrupulous, and obviously they're in business to profit. Not all customers are thieves. Why must some assume it's this way with UO buyers and sellers?
G
Guest
Guest
...
Honest players that want to save a little time or enhance their entertainment by purchasing gold or in-game items with RL $$ are not ruining the community, cheaters are.
Not all RL business owners are unscrupulous, and obviously they're in business to profit. Not all customers are thieves. Why must some assume it's this way with UO buyers and sellers?
To take this even further, honest players who are also gold sellers would be the first and foremost to want to be rid of exploiters, especially dupers and scriptors because of the damage they do to the price of the traded commodity.
If I were to want to sell gold (I don't right now because the price per million vs what I tend to gather in during a given timeframe would have me making a tiny fraction of minimum wage), the LAST thing I would want is to deal in a market that has been as depressed as UO's has become due to the exploiters.
From a purely economical point of view, even from a seller's point of view... exploiting is simply bad for business.
Honest players that want to save a little time or enhance their entertainment by purchasing gold or in-game items with RL $$ are not ruining the community, cheaters are.
Not all RL business owners are unscrupulous, and obviously they're in business to profit. Not all customers are thieves. Why must some assume it's this way with UO buyers and sellers?
To take this even further, honest players who are also gold sellers would be the first and foremost to want to be rid of exploiters, especially dupers and scriptors because of the damage they do to the price of the traded commodity.
If I were to want to sell gold (I don't right now because the price per million vs what I tend to gather in during a given timeframe would have me making a tiny fraction of minimum wage), the LAST thing I would want is to deal in a market that has been as depressed as UO's has become due to the exploiters.
From a purely economical point of view, even from a seller's point of view... exploiting is simply bad for business.
G
Guest
Guest
Excellent points! *nods*
P
Paris_Hilton
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
...
So instead of addressing the topic you pat yourself on the back for identifying and watching a scriptor.
That's nice and all, but completely off the specific topic.
The topic was making personal judgments on people engaged in a legal game mechanic (scripting as we all know is technically ILLEGAL... specifically unattended scripting).
Noone in this thread who is arguing in favor of selling gold for real money (whether they engage in it or not) is trying to defend, excuse, or justify exploiting, duping, or scripting.
We are in fact attempting to point out that there is a difference between those activities and the completely outside of game process that may take place to facilitate the exchange of gold between one player and another.
It's not what is done with the gold or other resource that is the issue, it's how that resource is obtained to begin with.
[/ QUOTE ]
"The topic was making personal judgments on people engaged in a legal game mechanic (scripting as we all know is technically ILLEGAL... specifically unattended scripting)."
Lol.
Actually the USE of UNAPPROVED third party programs is illegal.
Attended or unattended.
A certain website even tells you this, yet they say that as long as you are attended and can speak when spoken too GMs will never know you are running a script, isn't that what you meant?
Had to do some research on bod scripts recently.
...
So instead of addressing the topic you pat yourself on the back for identifying and watching a scriptor.
That's nice and all, but completely off the specific topic.
The topic was making personal judgments on people engaged in a legal game mechanic (scripting as we all know is technically ILLEGAL... specifically unattended scripting).
Noone in this thread who is arguing in favor of selling gold for real money (whether they engage in it or not) is trying to defend, excuse, or justify exploiting, duping, or scripting.
We are in fact attempting to point out that there is a difference between those activities and the completely outside of game process that may take place to facilitate the exchange of gold between one player and another.
It's not what is done with the gold or other resource that is the issue, it's how that resource is obtained to begin with.
[/ QUOTE ]
"The topic was making personal judgments on people engaged in a legal game mechanic (scripting as we all know is technically ILLEGAL... specifically unattended scripting)."
Lol.
Actually the USE of UNAPPROVED third party programs is illegal.
Attended or unattended.
A certain website even tells you this, yet they say that as long as you are attended and can speak when spoken too GMs will never know you are running a script, isn't that what you meant?
Had to do some research on bod scripts recently.
I
imported_Coppelia
Guest
"Fail"... caps in bold... Are you 8 years old?
You can deny it all you want, the fact is that buyers encourage botters.
Other compagnies understood it.
Adena is the ingame currency.
If botting wasn't possible, then selling gold or giving it would have the same impact on economy. But with demand, botters actually create more offer by increasing amounts of gold ingame. They add gold to the economy.
Second thing, with your argument of "inside the game it's the same" for gold, botting ingame is the same as playing 24/7. "That doesn't hurt anybody", right?
Banging a golem, spamming spells or music instrument, getting hit by a summoned air elemental... what does it change for you if I'm afk or not?
What does it change for you if I buy my ingots in RL cash, with gold coins or if I bot to get it? There's enough places to mine as you want, I won't bother you if I bot. The ressources I create mining, the seller of ingots would have needed to create it too. And given the quantity needed we both know where it comes from.
You can deny it all you want, the fact is that buyers encourage botters.
Other compagnies understood it.
Adena is the ingame currency.
If botting wasn't possible, then selling gold or giving it would have the same impact on economy. But with demand, botters actually create more offer by increasing amounts of gold ingame. They add gold to the economy.
Second thing, with your argument of "inside the game it's the same" for gold, botting ingame is the same as playing 24/7. "That doesn't hurt anybody", right?
Banging a golem, spamming spells or music instrument, getting hit by a summoned air elemental... what does it change for you if I'm afk or not?
What does it change for you if I buy my ingots in RL cash, with gold coins or if I bot to get it? There's enough places to mine as you want, I won't bother you if I bot. The ressources I create mining, the seller of ingots would have needed to create it too. And given the quantity needed we both know where it comes from.
G
Guest
Guest
...
Where am I defending or supporting scripting or botting or any such thing?
Scriptors as shown can be identified.
If someone is scripting unattendedly, then REMOVE THEM from the game. (This seems simple enough, doesn't it?)
The statement that selling currency ALWAYS makes more scriptors is propaganda garbage.
Scriptors, bots, and exploiters will be ingame REAGRDLESS of selling gold or resources for $$$. You mentioned one type yourself... the skill-gain scriptor that has been ingame even since the pre-UO:R days (people who were there may remember the crowds around town criers working up Eval Int when that change was put in), how about the 8x8 boat scriptors, and as you mention the golem bashers. NONE of those people are apparent gold sellers, yet they're exploiting the game by scripting unattendedly.
The point is that gold selling has two actions... one outside of game and one inside of game.
Outside of game, it is simply the payment of real money for the service of the transfer of ingame goods (notice I state service of transfer as the ownership of said goods is with the company that owns the game AND REMAINS SO regardless of who has said goods).
Inside the game it is simply the transfer of gold from Player A to Player B.
Neither of these activities break any of the game's rules (unless you want to make it illegal to transfer gold from one character to another which causes another HUGE problem by itself).
What DOES break the game's rules are scripting, botting, exploiting, duping, and if UO had the same type of message system that other games use... Spamming.
If you want to be righteously indignant at something, be so at the scriptors, botters, exploiters and dupers for doing THOSE THINGS, not because someone sells gold that they gained through legitimate gameplay.
Where am I defending or supporting scripting or botting or any such thing?
Scriptors as shown can be identified.
If someone is scripting unattendedly, then REMOVE THEM from the game. (This seems simple enough, doesn't it?)
The statement that selling currency ALWAYS makes more scriptors is propaganda garbage.
Scriptors, bots, and exploiters will be ingame REAGRDLESS of selling gold or resources for $$$. You mentioned one type yourself... the skill-gain scriptor that has been ingame even since the pre-UO:R days (people who were there may remember the crowds around town criers working up Eval Int when that change was put in), how about the 8x8 boat scriptors, and as you mention the golem bashers. NONE of those people are apparent gold sellers, yet they're exploiting the game by scripting unattendedly.
The point is that gold selling has two actions... one outside of game and one inside of game.
Outside of game, it is simply the payment of real money for the service of the transfer of ingame goods (notice I state service of transfer as the ownership of said goods is with the company that owns the game AND REMAINS SO regardless of who has said goods).
Inside the game it is simply the transfer of gold from Player A to Player B.
Neither of these activities break any of the game's rules (unless you want to make it illegal to transfer gold from one character to another which causes another HUGE problem by itself).
What DOES break the game's rules are scripting, botting, exploiting, duping, and if UO had the same type of message system that other games use... Spamming.
If you want to be righteously indignant at something, be so at the scriptors, botters, exploiters and dupers for doing THOSE THINGS, not because someone sells gold that they gained through legitimate gameplay.
C
Connor_Graham
Guest
"So ask me how I know gold sellers cheat.
I play UO.
That's how."
So, if and when I decide to sell off my excess gold, even though it was obtained legally, I'm automatically a cheater since I'll have sold gold huh?
Discriminate much?
You'd think that someone that got so upset about a certain house sign and the discrimination it showed would be a bit more careful about discriminating themselves.
Otherwise they might appear to be a hypocrite....
I play UO.
That's how."
So, if and when I decide to sell off my excess gold, even though it was obtained legally, I'm automatically a cheater since I'll have sold gold huh?
Discriminate much?
You'd think that someone that got so upset about a certain house sign and the discrimination it showed would be a bit more careful about discriminating themselves.
Otherwise they might appear to be a hypocrite....
I
imported_Coppelia
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
If someone is scripting unattendedly, then REMOVE THEM from the game. (This seems simple enough, doesn't it?)
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, simple as that! That's why they've been all removed, right?
And if it's only propaganda, why are Chineses from Guangdong creating a website selling Lineage II ingame money? Because Chineses like to play on NA servers when there are Chinese, Korean, Filipino servers?
Yeah right, stay blind. They would play there if it wasn't possible... sure.
Or Ultima Online is an exception maybe?
It tell you, the only exceptions are game with so few players there's not enough customers : there, the only bots that can appear are to powerlevel a character.
And while you're getting upset against
<blockquote><hr>
skill-gain scriptor that has been ingame even since the pre-UO:R days (people who were there may remember the crowds around town criers working up Eval Int when that change was put in), how about the 8x8 boat scriptors, and as you mention the golem bashers
[/ QUOTE ]
remember that those people have been arguing their behavior doesn't affect the gameplay of other players since pre-UO:R too. And if you remember well, the arguments are the same as the eBayers' ones. So I don't see why it should be ok for some and not for others.
If someone is scripting unattendedly, then REMOVE THEM from the game. (This seems simple enough, doesn't it?)
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, simple as that! That's why they've been all removed, right?
And if it's only propaganda, why are Chineses from Guangdong creating a website selling Lineage II ingame money? Because Chineses like to play on NA servers when there are Chinese, Korean, Filipino servers?
Yeah right, stay blind. They would play there if it wasn't possible... sure.
Or Ultima Online is an exception maybe?
It tell you, the only exceptions are game with so few players there's not enough customers : there, the only bots that can appear are to powerlevel a character.
And while you're getting upset against
<blockquote><hr>
skill-gain scriptor that has been ingame even since the pre-UO:R days (people who were there may remember the crowds around town criers working up Eval Int when that change was put in), how about the 8x8 boat scriptors, and as you mention the golem bashers
[/ QUOTE ]
remember that those people have been arguing their behavior doesn't affect the gameplay of other players since pre-UO:R too. And if you remember well, the arguments are the same as the eBayers' ones. So I don't see why it should be ok for some and not for others.
G
Guest
Guest
...
I don't see why it should be ok for some and not for others.
In UO, selling ingame items (or technically the service of transferring the items) is NOT an illegal action.
Exploiting, scripting, duping and so on ARE.
If a group of Chinese people want to start a website to sell ingame gold for a game, then more power to them. Free Markets are WONDERFUL things and should be ENCOURAGED.
However if they exploit game mechanics in order to obtain the resource at a faster than accepted rate, then they need to be permanently removed from the game.
Pointing at gold selling as the CUASE for cheating is a logical fallacy of Corrolation/Causation.
You can EASILY correlate real life sales to cheating in an online game, but the ability to sell ingame items for real money does not CAUSE cheating in the least. Otherwise, that would be the ONLY type of cheating that you see.
Instead we see cheating including, but not limited to:
1. Speedhacking in PvP
2. Scripting for resources/BODs
3. Scripting/unattended macroing for skill gain
4. Exploiting game mechanics to gain skill by bypassing the use of material components (i.e. the Earthquake scroll exploit years ago)
5. House break in exploits
6. Dupe exploits (both before and after the rise of real life money sales)
7. Forced lag/crash exploits/hacks
8. The original Black Dye tub was an exploit/hack
the list goes on, yet of that list, only 2 or 3 items correlate with out of game sales for real money, yet all are exploiting to some degree.
The problem is that I am NOT blind by any stretch. I believe in a Free Market system, however to keep a Free Market system healthy, you have to identify and remove exploits and those who abuse them.
Gold didn't go down from $30+ per million to $1-2 per million just because people were selling gold. It went down that far because people were DUPING gold.
This is why I'm a STAUNCH advocate of an EA/Mythic run out of game auction site. Benefits of such a system would be:
1. host auctions as a neutral party reducing or removing drama fro auctio sites run by less than honest "brokers"
2. charge a percentage fee for auctions involving real life money allowing the site to become self sufficient or even adding a revenue stream to the game itself
3. tie auction site accounts to game accounts to facilitate #4 listed below
4. use the auction system as a start for investigating exploiters based on amounts of resources posted.
Like I stated... the gold seller can be someone who plays the game completely legitimately and legally while the "philanthropist" can be the biggest exploiter in the game, yet you don't know based on simply seeing gold change from one player to another.
We ALL want exploiters removed from UO, I just want to show that SOME people are pointing fingers in a certain direction for the WRONG reasons.
I don't see why it should be ok for some and not for others.
In UO, selling ingame items (or technically the service of transferring the items) is NOT an illegal action.
Exploiting, scripting, duping and so on ARE.
If a group of Chinese people want to start a website to sell ingame gold for a game, then more power to them. Free Markets are WONDERFUL things and should be ENCOURAGED.
However if they exploit game mechanics in order to obtain the resource at a faster than accepted rate, then they need to be permanently removed from the game.
Pointing at gold selling as the CUASE for cheating is a logical fallacy of Corrolation/Causation.
You can EASILY correlate real life sales to cheating in an online game, but the ability to sell ingame items for real money does not CAUSE cheating in the least. Otherwise, that would be the ONLY type of cheating that you see.
Instead we see cheating including, but not limited to:
1. Speedhacking in PvP
2. Scripting for resources/BODs
3. Scripting/unattended macroing for skill gain
4. Exploiting game mechanics to gain skill by bypassing the use of material components (i.e. the Earthquake scroll exploit years ago)
5. House break in exploits
6. Dupe exploits (both before and after the rise of real life money sales)
7. Forced lag/crash exploits/hacks
8. The original Black Dye tub was an exploit/hack
the list goes on, yet of that list, only 2 or 3 items correlate with out of game sales for real money, yet all are exploiting to some degree.
The problem is that I am NOT blind by any stretch. I believe in a Free Market system, however to keep a Free Market system healthy, you have to identify and remove exploits and those who abuse them.
Gold didn't go down from $30+ per million to $1-2 per million just because people were selling gold. It went down that far because people were DUPING gold.
This is why I'm a STAUNCH advocate of an EA/Mythic run out of game auction site. Benefits of such a system would be:
1. host auctions as a neutral party reducing or removing drama fro auctio sites run by less than honest "brokers"
2. charge a percentage fee for auctions involving real life money allowing the site to become self sufficient or even adding a revenue stream to the game itself
3. tie auction site accounts to game accounts to facilitate #4 listed below
4. use the auction system as a start for investigating exploiters based on amounts of resources posted.
Like I stated... the gold seller can be someone who plays the game completely legitimately and legally while the "philanthropist" can be the biggest exploiter in the game, yet you don't know based on simply seeing gold change from one player to another.
We ALL want exploiters removed from UO, I just want to show that SOME people are pointing fingers in a certain direction for the WRONG reasons.
P
Paris_Hilton
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
"So ask me how I know gold sellers cheat.
I play UO.
That's how."
So, if and when I decide to sell off my excess gold, even though it was obtained legally, I'm automatically a cheater since I'll have sold gold huh?
Discriminate much?
You'd think that someone that got so upset about a certain house sign and the discrimination it showed would be a bit more careful about discriminating themselves.
Otherwise they might appear to be a hypocrite....
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't discriminate between them.
Neither gold sellers nor racists are necessary to the continued survival *(edited for spelling) of UO.
All the evidence I have been able to gather,
from ebay banning the sale of virtual items (the difficulty proving someone had handed over the virtual item after they had accepted payment being one reason),
from reading three of the major UO for sale websites who sell gold and items and listening to the gold sellers THEMSELVES admitting to duping and other forms of cheating ingame to keep themeselves in business,
after actually playing UO for 5 years (2 on test so mostly I have been eyewitness to cheating in just the past 2 years)
and going up against the gold selling machinery more than once and losing every single time (same people always win Luna City idocs and sell plots for cash)
I can weigh the evidence
and the gold sellers come up wanting.
Gold sellers who rely on UO as their principal means of financial support would *be affected in a negative way* (changed the wording to something more polite and grownup) if their cash flow was threatened by ingame changes. They are at the same time the biggest cheaters within the game.
Because of them, the rest of us suffer.
No honest player needs 4368 smith/tailor bods a week, of course the person running this script is doing it for financial gain irl.
Because of this scripter taking up so much server storage room with their afk bod gathering operations the rest of us will most likely NOT be able to get additional stable slots.
Do gold sellers affect you now? Do gold sellers affect you now?
I would honestly love to hear all about you selling your gold that you obtained ingame "legitimately".
Please fill us in on the details. I mean aren't you afraid that someone will send you the $20 paypal for your extra 10 million gold, you hand over the gold and then they accuse you of not giving them anything?
Is $20 really worth the hassle?
"So ask me how I know gold sellers cheat.
I play UO.
That's how."
So, if and when I decide to sell off my excess gold, even though it was obtained legally, I'm automatically a cheater since I'll have sold gold huh?
Discriminate much?
You'd think that someone that got so upset about a certain house sign and the discrimination it showed would be a bit more careful about discriminating themselves.
Otherwise they might appear to be a hypocrite....
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't discriminate between them.
Neither gold sellers nor racists are necessary to the continued survival *(edited for spelling) of UO.
All the evidence I have been able to gather,
from ebay banning the sale of virtual items (the difficulty proving someone had handed over the virtual item after they had accepted payment being one reason),
from reading three of the major UO for sale websites who sell gold and items and listening to the gold sellers THEMSELVES admitting to duping and other forms of cheating ingame to keep themeselves in business,
after actually playing UO for 5 years (2 on test so mostly I have been eyewitness to cheating in just the past 2 years)
and going up against the gold selling machinery more than once and losing every single time (same people always win Luna City idocs and sell plots for cash)
I can weigh the evidence
and the gold sellers come up wanting.
Gold sellers who rely on UO as their principal means of financial support would *be affected in a negative way* (changed the wording to something more polite and grownup) if their cash flow was threatened by ingame changes. They are at the same time the biggest cheaters within the game.
Because of them, the rest of us suffer.
No honest player needs 4368 smith/tailor bods a week, of course the person running this script is doing it for financial gain irl.
Because of this scripter taking up so much server storage room with their afk bod gathering operations the rest of us will most likely NOT be able to get additional stable slots.
Do gold sellers affect you now? Do gold sellers affect you now?
I would honestly love to hear all about you selling your gold that you obtained ingame "legitimately".
Please fill us in on the details. I mean aren't you afraid that someone will send you the $20 paypal for your extra 10 million gold, you hand over the gold and then they accuse you of not giving them anything?
Is $20 really worth the hassle?
C
Connor_Graham
Guest
All that and you still haven't answered the question...
"So, if and when I decide to sell off my excess gold, even though it was obtained legally, I'm automatically a cheater since I'll have sold gold huh?"
You've said several times now that gold sellers are cheaters as shown in this example:
"So ask me how I know gold sellers cheat.
I play UO.
That's how."
...yet I've asked this question at least twice now and still have as yet to receive an answer.
You also have not shown in any way how legitimate gold sellers affect the game negatively.
Oh wait...
According to you there isn't any such thing as a legitimate gold seller...
But then there's my question that still begs an answer.....
"So, if and when I decide to sell off my excess gold, even though it was obtained legally, I'm automatically a cheater since I'll have sold gold huh?"
You've said several times now that gold sellers are cheaters as shown in this example:
"So ask me how I know gold sellers cheat.
I play UO.
That's how."
...yet I've asked this question at least twice now and still have as yet to receive an answer.
You also have not shown in any way how legitimate gold sellers affect the game negatively.
Oh wait...
According to you there isn't any such thing as a legitimate gold seller...
But then there's my question that still begs an answer.....
I
imported_Coppelia
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
...
I don't see why it should be ok for some and not for others.
In UO, selling ingame items (or technically the service of transferring the items) is NOT an illegal action.
Exploiting, scripting, duping and so on ARE.
[/ QUOTE ]
EA just has to deem it illegal and your whole argument fall? Is that it? Be serious. I hope you're mature enough to understand that EA choosing what's illegal and what's not doesn't equal to what's wrong and what's right for the game.
<blockquote><hr>
If a group of Chinese people want to start a website to sell ingame gold for a game, then more power to them. Free Markets are WONDERFUL things and should be ENCOURAGED.
However if they exploit game mechanics in order to obtain the resource at a faster than accepted rate, then they need to be permanently removed from the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stop the hypocrisis, it sounds like either you are living a strange world which connections to mine still are a mystery for me, or you are exagerating the presumption of innocence just to convince yourself you're right. But being blind doesn't count. The people who enter the market of ingame money sales are not getting it legally. It wouldn't be profitable.
You perfectly know the difference between a vet selling her account to stop the game or reduce the number of account held, and regular gold suppliers. But don't worry, EA knows it as well. They've even rethought the question of the sale of ingame products by players. You'll find a note from Jeremy on a FoF. We didn't get the conclusion, but most likely it's too late to change anything, in their opinions.
<blockquote><hr>
Instead we see cheating including, but not limited to:
1. Speedhacking in PvP
2. Scripting for resources/BODs
3. Scripting/unattended macroing for skill gain
4. Exploiting game mechanics to gain skill by bypassing the use of material components (i.e. the Earthquake scroll exploit years ago)
5. House break in exploits
6. Dupe exploits (both before and after the rise of real life money sales)
7. Forced lag/crash exploits/hacks
8. The original Black Dye tub was an exploit/hack
the list goes on, yet of that list, only 2 or 3 items correlate with out of game sales for real money, yet all are exploiting to some degree.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if you do it blatently, but you maybe have not understood what I'm speaking about. I'm not speaking about speehacks and such PvP cheats, or exploit of the moment like stealing in houses etc. I'm speaking about bots or automatons (which is more precise that scripters, which can define PvP scripters), made to farm ressources. Gold, ingots, wood, runic kits (BODs and Heartwood quests)... and also to duplicate items.
And again, people buy gold for the same reason others (or the same) bot their character up in skills or attended with cheap tactics depending on how they fear the banhammer. That's not ethic. We're playing a game, and real life money shouldn't have such a weight in a game.
The less worse thing EA could do is to sell UO gold in their shop. Even if that throw my idealist views of a game or a virtual world w/e you call it to the trash bin, at least the money goes to the less wrong person. They are the ones working for UO, and not destroying it.
...
I don't see why it should be ok for some and not for others.
In UO, selling ingame items (or technically the service of transferring the items) is NOT an illegal action.
Exploiting, scripting, duping and so on ARE.
[/ QUOTE ]
EA just has to deem it illegal and your whole argument fall? Is that it? Be serious. I hope you're mature enough to understand that EA choosing what's illegal and what's not doesn't equal to what's wrong and what's right for the game.
<blockquote><hr>
If a group of Chinese people want to start a website to sell ingame gold for a game, then more power to them. Free Markets are WONDERFUL things and should be ENCOURAGED.
However if they exploit game mechanics in order to obtain the resource at a faster than accepted rate, then they need to be permanently removed from the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stop the hypocrisis, it sounds like either you are living a strange world which connections to mine still are a mystery for me, or you are exagerating the presumption of innocence just to convince yourself you're right. But being blind doesn't count. The people who enter the market of ingame money sales are not getting it legally. It wouldn't be profitable.
You perfectly know the difference between a vet selling her account to stop the game or reduce the number of account held, and regular gold suppliers. But don't worry, EA knows it as well. They've even rethought the question of the sale of ingame products by players. You'll find a note from Jeremy on a FoF. We didn't get the conclusion, but most likely it's too late to change anything, in their opinions.
<blockquote><hr>
Instead we see cheating including, but not limited to:
1. Speedhacking in PvP
2. Scripting for resources/BODs
3. Scripting/unattended macroing for skill gain
4. Exploiting game mechanics to gain skill by bypassing the use of material components (i.e. the Earthquake scroll exploit years ago)
5. House break in exploits
6. Dupe exploits (both before and after the rise of real life money sales)
7. Forced lag/crash exploits/hacks
8. The original Black Dye tub was an exploit/hack
the list goes on, yet of that list, only 2 or 3 items correlate with out of game sales for real money, yet all are exploiting to some degree.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if you do it blatently, but you maybe have not understood what I'm speaking about. I'm not speaking about speehacks and such PvP cheats, or exploit of the moment like stealing in houses etc. I'm speaking about bots or automatons (which is more precise that scripters, which can define PvP scripters), made to farm ressources. Gold, ingots, wood, runic kits (BODs and Heartwood quests)... and also to duplicate items.
And again, people buy gold for the same reason others (or the same) bot their character up in skills or attended with cheap tactics depending on how they fear the banhammer. That's not ethic. We're playing a game, and real life money shouldn't have such a weight in a game.
The less worse thing EA could do is to sell UO gold in their shop. Even if that throw my idealist views of a game or a virtual world w/e you call it to the trash bin, at least the money goes to the less wrong person. They are the ones working for UO, and not destroying it.
F
Fayled Dhreams
Guest
...might have some ... depends on how implemented ingame ...
gonna need to block ALL transfer of items between players ... to lock the system down ... else the "illicit trade" WILL continue ...
Thing is ... there "ain't" any real way to "tell" which trade, ingame, is or is not, arranged/controlled by external communications ...
"... real life money shouldn't have such a weight in a game. "
[eye-roll]
Stay on topic re: the game .... to "fix" that particular "shouldn't" ... gonna require a whole lot of social engineering ...
ie.
Fix the humans first ...
G
Guest
Guest
...
A Correlation/Causation error = case closed?
A Correlation/Causation error = case closed?
P
Paris_Hilton
Guest
"Thing is ... there "ain't" any real way to "tell" which trade, ingame, is or is not, arranged/controlled by external communications ..."
How many people would PREFER to buy ingame gold if they needed to from a reputable source such as EA Games (THEY haven't made public confessions of THEIR duping/cheating activities) rather than from a broker or UO gold seller (most of whom HAVE made public confessions of cheating).
If EA sells gold ingame for cash I think it'd be a whole lot easier to tell whose trading what and how because the gold sellers should become extinct.
But maybe they could have a nice plaque in their memory placed down in Brit sewers?
How many people would PREFER to buy ingame gold if they needed to from a reputable source such as EA Games (THEY haven't made public confessions of THEIR duping/cheating activities) rather than from a broker or UO gold seller (most of whom HAVE made public confessions of cheating).
If EA sells gold ingame for cash I think it'd be a whole lot easier to tell whose trading what and how because the gold sellers should become extinct.
But maybe they could have a nice plaque in their memory placed down in Brit sewers?
F
Fayled Dhreams
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
"Thing is ... there "ain't" any real way to "tell" which trade, ingame, is or is not, arranged/controlled by external communications ..."
How many people would PREFER to buy ingame gold if they needed to from a reputable source such as EA Games (THEY haven't made public confessions of THEIR duping/cheating activities) rather than from a broker or UO gold seller (most of whom HAVE made public confessions of cheating).
If EA sells gold ingame for cash I think it'd be a whole lot easier to tell whose trading what and how because the gold sellers should become extinct.
But maybe they could have a nice plaque in their memory placed down in Brit sewers?
[/ QUOTE ]
so ...
you want more easy/reliable access to gold for $'s ??
why didn't you say so in the first place ... ???
Gold sellers would welcome a "stabalizing effect" by introducing an EA sponsored system ...
The reputable ones, like have been mentioned, by the "legit" sellers ... for instance ...
true ... those scritters that generate their gp via scripts ... will likely take a "stabalizing hit" ...
not like they'll need to lay anyone off though, just add more scripts to compensate ...
Course ...
that'll just "fix" gp for $'s ...
Gonna need to lock up house trades too ...
which I suspect is what your reallllllly chapped about ...
and equally ineffectual at "fixing" ...
but
Sure ... EA selling GP ...
Talk 'em into it
"Thing is ... there "ain't" any real way to "tell" which trade, ingame, is or is not, arranged/controlled by external communications ..."
How many people would PREFER to buy ingame gold if they needed to from a reputable source such as EA Games (THEY haven't made public confessions of THEIR duping/cheating activities) rather than from a broker or UO gold seller (most of whom HAVE made public confessions of cheating).
If EA sells gold ingame for cash I think it'd be a whole lot easier to tell whose trading what and how because the gold sellers should become extinct.
But maybe they could have a nice plaque in their memory placed down in Brit sewers?
[/ QUOTE ]
you want more easy/reliable access to gold for $'s ??
why didn't you say so in the first place ... ???
Gold sellers would welcome a "stabalizing effect" by introducing an EA sponsored system ...
The reputable ones, like have been mentioned, by the "legit" sellers ... for instance ...
true ... those scritters that generate their gp via scripts ... will likely take a "stabalizing hit" ...
not like they'll need to lay anyone off though, just add more scripts to compensate ...
Course ...
Gonna need to lock up house trades too ...
which I suspect is what your reallllllly chapped about ...
and equally ineffectual at "fixing" ...
but
Sure ... EA selling GP ...
Talk 'em into it
G
Guest
Guest
.
How many people would PREFER to buy ingame gold if they needed to from a reputable source such as EA Games (THEY haven't made public confessions of THEIR duping/cheating activities) rather than from a broker or UO gold seller (most of whom HAVE made public confessions of cheating).
If EA sells gold ingame for cash I think it'd be a whole lot easier to tell whose trading what and how because the gold sellers should become extinct.
You realize that EA selling gold in UO would be INFINITE times WORSE Than players doing it.
Players can only sell gold they gain through gameplay EA selling gold would be gold CREATED outside of gameplay and would make inflation matters even worse than they are now.
Surely even you can see the difference here.
How many people would PREFER to buy ingame gold if they needed to from a reputable source such as EA Games (THEY haven't made public confessions of THEIR duping/cheating activities) rather than from a broker or UO gold seller (most of whom HAVE made public confessions of cheating).
If EA sells gold ingame for cash I think it'd be a whole lot easier to tell whose trading what and how because the gold sellers should become extinct.
You realize that EA selling gold in UO would be INFINITE times WORSE Than players doing it.
Players can only sell gold they gain through gameplay EA selling gold would be gold CREATED outside of gameplay and would make inflation matters even worse than they are now.
Surely even you can see the difference here.
P
Paris_Hilton
Guest
"so ...
you want more easy/reliable access to gold for $'s ??
why didn't you say so in the first place ... ???
Gold sellers would welcome a "stabalizing effect" by introducing an EA sponsored system ...
The reputable ones, like have been mentioned, by the "legit" sellers ... for instance ...
true ... those scritters that generate their gp via scripts ... will likely take a "stabalizing hit" ...
not like they'll need to lay anyone off though, just add more scripts to compensate ...
Course ... that'll just "fix" gp for $'s ...
Gonna need to lock up house trades too ...
which I suspect is what your reallllllly chapped about ...
and equally ineffectual at "fixing" ...
but
Sure ... EA selling GP ...
Talk 'em into it"
Personally I would never buy video game gold from any place.
I can see why some UO players might though.
Pvpers who just want to pvp and are oftentimes kids with plenty of birthday and Christmas money, grownups who work fulltime.
Selling gold ingame for cash would make UO more profitable to EA, and since EA can simply generate their gold "legitimately" I don't forsee EA games setting up any scripting operations to obtain those millions they'd be offering up for sale.
(And hogging up server space with their script collected 4k smith/tailor bods per week).
Think I am upset because of the SAME people alway win those castles and Luna City idocs? (Did you really cave so easily once you learned the deal?)
Why shouldn't I be upset?
Why shouldn't everyone be upset?
It's not as if they do it without the use of exploits (and who knows what else).
Exploiting is SUPPOSED to be against the rules in UO.
It wouldn't even be a big deal if the same people USED exploits to ALWAYS win these plots IF they actually used them to play the game.
But they don't.
They exploit themselves into every single one for real life financial gain. (Selling them for cash money).
EA selling gold really wouldn't have any effect on those guys that I can see, so not sure why you mention them. (Do they sell UO gold as well?)
Hopefully Draconi and team will though.
PS: Oh don't worry I AM talking.
you want more easy/reliable access to gold for $'s ??
why didn't you say so in the first place ... ???
Gold sellers would welcome a "stabalizing effect" by introducing an EA sponsored system ...
The reputable ones, like have been mentioned, by the "legit" sellers ... for instance ...
true ... those scritters that generate their gp via scripts ... will likely take a "stabalizing hit" ...
not like they'll need to lay anyone off though, just add more scripts to compensate ...
Course ... that'll just "fix" gp for $'s ...
Gonna need to lock up house trades too ...
which I suspect is what your reallllllly chapped about ...
and equally ineffectual at "fixing" ...
but
Sure ... EA selling GP ...
Talk 'em into it"
Personally I would never buy video game gold from any place.
I can see why some UO players might though.
Pvpers who just want to pvp and are oftentimes kids with plenty of birthday and Christmas money, grownups who work fulltime.
Selling gold ingame for cash would make UO more profitable to EA, and since EA can simply generate their gold "legitimately" I don't forsee EA games setting up any scripting operations to obtain those millions they'd be offering up for sale.
(And hogging up server space with their script collected 4k smith/tailor bods per week).
Think I am upset because of the SAME people alway win those castles and Luna City idocs? (Did you really cave so easily once you learned the deal?)
Why shouldn't I be upset?
Why shouldn't everyone be upset?
It's not as if they do it without the use of exploits (and who knows what else).
Exploiting is SUPPOSED to be against the rules in UO.
It wouldn't even be a big deal if the same people USED exploits to ALWAYS win these plots IF they actually used them to play the game.
But they don't.
They exploit themselves into every single one for real life financial gain. (Selling them for cash money).
EA selling gold really wouldn't have any effect on those guys that I can see, so not sure why you mention them. (Do they sell UO gold as well?)
Hopefully Draconi and team will though.
PS: Oh don't worry I AM talking.