Selling gold destroys the uo community?

[imported_Goron]

<blockquote><hr>

It destroys the game because people try to make masses of RL cash for RL and not just a small amount to again use for the game.Thats a BIG difference.

[/ QUOTE ]uhh, what?

<blockquote><hr>

Ea are so extremly stupid that it hurts.
If they made it illegal (which most big mmorpg do!) to sell gold for RL via ebay etc

[/ QUOTE ]
One, ebay doesnt facilitate in-game item sales anymore,
Two, sure, most mmorpgs make it illegal, but show me one mmorpg that doesnt have gold brokers. Google 'wow gold' and EVERY SINGLE result ont he first page is for websites and brokers selling WoW gold for rl money.
<blockquote><hr>


and INSTEAD make it so that one can buy official UO Gametimecode which can officially be sold via a SECURE system:

1.: The RL cash would go to EA whatever happens !!!
2.: The whole thing would be under control on not take bad dimensions as it has now.

[/ QUOTE ]what bad dimensions? please explain. and then explain how they would be avoided if sold thru ea.
<blockquote><hr>


3.: Rich people in UO get there account(s) paid by people who have the urge to buy Gold.

[/ QUOTE ]huh?
<blockquote><hr>


But I dont give EA that much intelegence to think about this seriosly...

[/ QUOTE ]
Ummm, thats silly. I think EA goes about this well. Gold sales happen in every game. Its silly to pretend to have it illegal. if EA said it wasnt aloud then everyone would just add 'gold sales' to their list of cheats that EA does nothign about.
And I dont get how EA selling gold would help anything at all. It would just cause an influx of gold intot he economy that is not 'earned' at all. It would be the exact same thing as legal duping, as far as the UO economy is concerned. Since RL $ doesnt have an effect on the UO economy, it owuld be like the gold is appearing out of no where with no cause.

Also something that annoys me is when people say 'waaa waaa the people that buy gold are missing the experience of earning it themselves'. To that I say: There are different types of gamers, explorers, achievers, killers, socializers... Each type of gamer has different goals. I personally couldnt care less about spending time farming gold. Thats all it is to me, farming. I would kill the same monster over and over and over and over with the goal of getting the best ROI. Where am i 'experiencing the game' in that? My goal for farming is to get loot which can then buy me more junk. I dont care about how i get the loot, I just want it and will do what it takes.

Just like many people here have no desire to pvp, other people have no desire to pvm. The pvm is just a grind that needs to be done in order to continue pvping. Buying gold is a way to let certain players continue their stlye of play, while maintaining the level of gold in the economy. That does not contribute to inflation, like farming new gold would or buying it form EA.

 

[Guest]

I have a friend that is a lawyer. 60 hour work weeks. Doesnt feel like earning gold so he buys it. So he can play.

Buying gold doesnt hurt anyone.

Design the game so gold is removed and you wont have inflation.

BUT there is a different between economy and inflation.

UO doesnt have an economy problem. It works just fine.

Its the inflation people dont like.

 

[imported_Goron]

Althoguh I agree with you in general, I must dispute some things...

<blockquote><hr>

Design the game so gold is removed and you wont have inflation.

[/ QUOTE ] not neccessarily true. If gold is being added (farmed) at 100 units a day, but only being removed (gold sink) at 80 units a day there is still inflation. But it would definately help. The game needs more BIG gold sinks that ultimately have little effect on the game.

<blockquote><hr>

BUT there is a different between economy and inflation.

[/ QUOTE ] here is where i completely disagree with you. Inflation and economy are peas in a pod.

<blockquote><hr>

UO doesnt have an economy problem. It works just fine.

Its the inflation people dont like.

[/ QUOTE ]Since inflation is a big part of economy, economy does have some problems.

 

[imported_infiniti]

I think we do have a bit of an inflation problem, just a tiny one.

For Sale

 

[Zalan]

UO gold is so worthless its not even worth Real Money any more. Except, for one site. Gold Farm selling sites Haven`t carried UO Gold for atleast 3 years.

However, UO Gold Piece, &amp; Republic Credits in SWG may soon pass the US dollar in Value.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Virtual Money Laundering
recognition
1 international
tax man cometh
2 international
where the tax man has arrived(for UO)

Never "was" worth real money ... may never make it back there ...

 

[Paris_Hilton]

<blockquote><hr>

I have a friend that is a lawyer. 60 hour work weeks. Doesnt feel like earning gold so he buys it. So he can play.

Buying gold doesnt hurt anyone.

Design the game so gold is removed and you wont have inflation.

BUT there is a different between economy and inflation.

UO doesnt have an economy problem. It works just fine.

Its the inflation people dont like.

[/ QUOTE ]




I never used to reply to any of your posts.


Know why?


Because your sig was promoting a UO gold/items for sale website or broker (don't recall which).


You posted SOMETHING every 5 minutes just to flash your advertisement.


I even recall posting that PLUS members aren't supposed to have to look at ads, but by placing your ad in your sig you circumvented that little rule.


Yeah you've not had the ad flashing for awhile, but I bet you still own/work for the UO for sale for cash site you were advertising?


People who sell gold are always going to swear they got it legitimately and that it doesn't hurt the community or the economy, etc., etc., etc.


The used car dealer isn't going to jump up and say yes! these cars are lemons! because he won't make any money if he does.


You are a seller.


Just so we know which side of the fence you are posting from.

 

[Connor_Graham]

"People who sell gold are always going to swear they got it legitimately"

So, if I was to put some of my very hard earned gold up for sale, would that automatically mean I cheated, duped and scammed to get it just because I happen to put it up for sale?

 

[Guest]

Yep
Lets see,
I got 2 valorite hammer on origin for blackrock turn in.
I sold them.

I sold some of the gold.

 

[Paris_Hilton]

In all honesty I think actual UO "Players" (not those who are ingame to pay their real life bills) who are logical readers should be able to draw their own conclusions just from reading what you say in your posts without me having to go line by line and tell you why I think what I think.



This is what I personally have gathered from your posts.


You make a 6 figure income irl and yet your irl wife begrudges you $70 a month for the internet and 3 UO accounts.

Therefore when you "play" UO for a few hours on weekdays and more hours on the weekends, you run bods on two shards and fill those bods and without ever selling any high end crafting rewards, you sell lots of POF and 120 smith scrolls and some crafted armor and lowend crafting rewards and you manage to rake in hundreds of millions of "extra" gold every single month which you sell for the super low price of $1.50 per million to pay for your UO habit?


Since your time in UO is limited I am guessing that on your RP account you only have time to roleplay a Tailor and a Smith?


Oh, I see that you also find the time to moderate on Stratics.



I am not accusing you of anything.



People who DEPEND on a certain amount of income every month through selling UO gold or virtual items must, if they are NOT cheating, at some point in time run low on stock and therefore have lower sales.


I mean you don't own plowed fields growing UO gold or server birth rares or event rares or Doom arties. Once you sell these things for cash they are gone from your inventory and more need to be acquired to keep up a steady stream of income.


How many gold sellers do you think would resort to cheating when that was the only way they had to get the UO gold or items they needed to sell for real money to pay their real life rent that month?


(Flip a coin. We fell short on gold/item sales this month so now we have to choose: heads we cheat and get cash and keep a roof over our heads, tails we don't cheat and we move into a lovely empty refrigerator box in a roadside ditch).


(We asked my youngest son when he was about 5 what he wanted to be when he grew up and his reply was he was going to live in a cardboard box in a ditch).



So what I was pointing out was that for those relying on UO as an income source the temptation to cheat does arise (apparently often since most gold selling websites have been caught cheating at some point).


I can see that if for some reason you were ill for a week and couldn't do your bod runs and crafting and fell short in your gold sales that you could always ask your wife if you could borrow some money to pay for UO.


But not every gold seller has that option.



So not an accusation, no, just logic, and the fact that I see gold/ item sellers in action ingame. Haven't we all?


And what I see isn't pretty.


They ruin our fantasy world dropping their buy cheap gold! crap books on the ground, naming a character after their "gaming" company and buying a Luna City House and posting their ICQs and informing you that you can buy everything in UO from them in unlimited amounts (and even a baglady's kidney too, if you really want one, they'll find you one).


One fellow on Pac regaled me once with the 'proper' way to get those exploited black faction horses and keep them from poofing (sold for 2 million per), told someone right out loud at Luna bank that he only "allowed" one gold Brit guard sash colored cloak into "circulation", and was macroing magery afk in his fel house on a blue character once (power leveling). Exploit, exploit/dupe, scripting afk.


Everytime I see the guy he's doing something else that used to be against the rules but seems to not be anymore?


I bet if I tried any of that I'd get 3 days off and a flag on my account.



Am I surprised to see that this guy now owns a Luna City vendor house with his "gaming' company as owner and his ICQ on the sign?


Not at all. It's par for the course in Mythic run UO.


For some reason gold sellers have been immune to the rules for quite some time. (But of course there's hope that that is changing).



There IS a need for some players with limited time to buy gold but EA should be doing the selling and the profiting, not anyone else.

 

[Paris_Hilton]

<blockquote><hr>

Virtual Money Laundering
recognition
1 international
tax man cometh
2 international
where the tax man has arrived(for UO)

Never "was" worth real money ... may never make it back there ...

[/ QUOTE ]




Thanks for those links!


Shocking...


Yet somehow uplifting...


IRS/DEA might get involved?


I see why ebay got the hell out.

 

[Paris_Hilton]

<blockquote><hr>

"People who sell gold are always going to swear they got it legitimately"

So, if I was to put some of my very hard earned gold up for sale, would that automatically mean I cheated, duped and scammed to get it just because I happen to put it up for sale?

[/ QUOTE ]



Must be a bit like heroin is for some people, I would think.


I am sure most gold "sellers" started out all virginal and as pure as the driven snow.


But like the heroin addict gows dependent on his fix, some gold sellers grow dependent on those gold sales.


And like the heroin addict will in the end do anything to get his fix, they will end up doing anything to make their sale.


Are you an addict?


There's only one real way to tell.


Try it (whatever IT may be) and see.

 

[Connor_Graham]

"Must be a bit like heroin is for some people, I would think."

There's also people that can walk right by the drug dealer and not think twice about passing him by.

Me for example. I've got lots of time on my hands. If I so chose to, I could spend a few hours in Doom every day. Get a few arties a day, sell them, then turn around and sell that gold for cash. I could then use that gold to pay for my monthly subscription. That doesn't mean I NEED that gold to pay for it, just that I could use it for that purpose. Doesn't mean I'd necessarily get "addicted" to that extra money, as it is just that, "extra money". Maybe I could use it to put a NOS kit on my Monte Carlo, or save it up and pay for a cruise.

Just like with your heroin example, people that sell gold can "just say no" and not "need" to have it, but don't mind having a little extra cash to toss around either.

I happen to have 50mil right now that I consider to be "extra" gold because I really don't have anything to spend it on. It's not all the gold I have by a longshot, just what I feel is "extra". I've got all the soulstones I could use, all the arties I need for all of my characters and then some, a max lockdown house with 300+ lockdowns left, and even a few extra "rare" things that most people don't have, but I happened to be in the right place at the right time and they were something I wanted. In short, I've got everything I "want" or "need" for my characters right now, and anything I don't have I can simply put in a little bit of time and get in a fairly short period.

So, I could sell this gold easily and make a few quick extra bucks that I could use to get an external hard drive that I've had my eye on. Doesn't mean I'm going to get "addicted" to anything.

I've said it many times before, generalizations are bad. Just like when you say that gold sellers resort to illegal means to get gold to sell, or will, doesn't mean it's true. I'm a perfect example of that. I know a couple of other people that have a hell of a lot more gold to sell than I do, that have sold gold in the past, and I know for a fact that their gold is all legit and don't have to resort to anything illegal to make more.

Gold is very easy to make if you've got the time and the initiative. Even if you're limited to how much time you have it's still easy to make.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Well writ Setnaffa, just one minor quibble.

More for "definition" than anything really. ingame gp vs rmt$ ...They "are" tied ... but as you noted ... NOT directly relevant and related.

RMT$ are external to the game ... as much if not more so as the availability of gp ingame is INTERNAL.
One can survive without the other ... one can change rapidly in respect to the other ...

They influence each other ... but there is no direct lead/follow relationship ... looks like does not equal IS.

As a legit player ...an increase in the value of rmt$ for gp ...will not necessarily affect you ... not why you "sell it"
you could remain AT 1.5per millio ...continue playing the game as you like ...that someone is continuosly buying at that ... then turning a margin profit on ReSale at 2.permil ...*shrugs* so what? you could remain/continue playing the game as you like ... no change ... aye?

Some are ... dismayed that theres any rmt at all ... tis a shame ... A) it is allowed B) no clear understanding how to "fix it" .
Banning it ... meh ... won't stop it.
Banning those that engage in it ...extra cost for "policeing" investigating ... meh ... day or two at most ... back at it.
EA setting up shop to engage in it ... few dollars after costs... possible profit ... won't necessarily "absolutely" end the margin players ...
Sad actually ... all some HAVE is dismay and the forums ... no resolution ... none "I" can see ... would love to see an actual "solution" ... just don't see it, even on a remote horizon.

rmt$ for UO pixels ... legal

I'm not a "user"

but if someone were to "offer" rmt$ ... for a set of "my" pixels ... *Shrugs* maybe ... maybe not ...
Like yourself, I'm not "driven by money in my play" ... and "could buy better pixels" pfffft! but why? not my style either.

All "we" (maybe, unknown, more from my perspective) need worry about ... tis the "illegal" ingame generation of GP ...
scritters and dupers ...
Surprisingly ... same as the Devs ...

need to focus on what you CAN effect ...

Ingame controllable systems ... being KEPT legitimate ...

ooo

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

No.

If people want to sell gold go for it. There are people out there who want to buy it.
That didnt wreck the community, the duping and cheating did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I disagree, while I agree cheating and duping do more harm, the RL sales of gold brings certain types of people to UO that do indeed ruin UO, they are called scalpers and they are as bad as the ones who make you pay double for the tickets at yopur local events in RL.

They bring "players" into the game, who are not players... They are slimey types like car salesmen, they will do anything, and say anything to make a buck. It is their only interest, you know these types even if you do not realise it...

They dont want to go do something in UO cuz they dont get anything to "sell" You know them, just open your eyes and you will see the scalpers, even in your own guilds, mine too. It's really sad. Even sadder you dont see it.

 

[imported_ElRay]

<blockquote><hr>

Anyone who thinks Duping and Gold selling Ruined this game is completely ignorant

Bottom line is, People dont quit video games because there is TO MUCH GOLD, they quit video games because of lack of content, bad gameplay, and lack of service.. As relevant as Duping is for some, Nobody picking up the video game ont he shelf says OMG ultima online, I hear that game has dupes lets not buy that.. No, They go, jesus this game has HORRID graphics and is 10 years old.. What the hell does it have to offer me ...

Every video game on the PLANET has gold sellers, Every video game stays right where it is based on what CONTENT is involved, Promotion and marketing given to it and attention to detail.

Inflation in a 10 year old video game isnt exactly gonna maintain its "control" after 10 years of gold influx from monsters, the 5-6 duping era's which ISNT bad for 10 years of a video game that created the damn mmorpg scene, and a few event items that top dollar vendors sell for Rl cash..

Whoever can justify those terms is one thing and one thing only.. VERY JEALOUS and thats it..

IF the majority of the player base agreed with people who didnt want gold sold being the case they would not BUY the damn gold, There are DOZENS of top dollar sellers who make decent profit in there spare time selling goods and buying accounts and gold from people who otherwise would have a worthless account they spent years d eveloping..

Again, Jealously drives this post nothing more

[/ QUOTE ]

your arguement is dumb and false, you are dumb and false


now sell me some gold

j/k

 

[the 4th man]

trashed the economy.

made players lazy.

 

[HD2300]

<blockquote><hr>



Well I disagree, while I agree cheating and duping do more harm, the RL sales of gold brings certain types of people to UO that do indeed ruin UO, they are called scalpers and they are as bad as the ones who make you pay double for the tickets at yopur local events in RL.

They bring "players" into the game, who are not players... They are slimey types like car salesmen, they will do anything, and say anything to make a buck. It is their only interest, you know these types even if you do not realise it...

They dont want to go do something in UO cuz they dont get anything to "sell" You know them, just open your eyes and you will see the scalpers, even in your own guilds, mine too. It's really sad. Even sadder you dont see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree. Gold/item sales has caused more cheating, scripting and slimey types.

 

[Guest]

Forever in UO some type of exploit or cheat has existed and it has been the precurser to much out cry and along with the exploiting and cheating have been many arguments of why it was ethical to do so.

The fault is in the design of UO it was to be a world and it was to be able to facilitate both good and evil and as levels of envy and compitition rose so did the creative ways to out do the next guy.

Its not uncommon to hear a story of the friend who was trusted many years had betrayed a best in game friend and so on.

UO does what it was designed to do well but the one thing that is our responsibility has been the most violated rule ever-be good to others.
how that is defined can be debated far and wide as to what is good and what is defiling but it is aparent to me that the nature of the net does facilitate certain actions that in rl would muster a much more savage responce but we are safe behind our key boards far from each other at least in most cases.

Ive had good times in this game and i always find myself trying to rekindle the spirit i felt so long ago and in fact is does always come back if i search well enough.

UO is a world and do to that fact we will never be happy with it forever.
Gold is only a symtom.

 

[Paris_Hilton]

<blockquote><hr>

"Must be a bit like heroin is for some people, I would think."

There's also people that can walk right by the drug dealer and not think twice about passing him by.

Me for example. I've got lots of time on my hands. If I so chose to, I could spend a few hours in Doom every day. Get a few arties a day, sell them, then turn around and sell that gold for cash. I could then use that gold to pay for my monthly subscription. That doesn't mean I NEED that gold to pay for it, just that I could use it for that purpose. Doesn't mean I'd necessarily get "addicted" to that extra money, as it is just that, "extra money". Maybe I could use it to put a NOS kit on my Monte Carlo, or save it up and pay for a cruise.

Just like with your heroin example, people that sell gold can "just say no" and not "need" to have it, but don't mind having a little extra cash to toss around either.

I happen to have 50mil right now that I consider to be "extra" gold because I really don't have anything to spend it on. It's not all the gold I have by a longshot, just what I feel is "extra". I've got all the soulstones I could use, all the arties I need for all of my characters and then some, a max lockdown house with 300+ lockdowns left, and even a few extra "rare" things that most people don't have, but I happened to be in the right place at the right time and they were something I wanted. In short, I've got everything I "want" or "need" for my characters right now, and anything I don't have I can simply put in a little bit of time and get in a fairly short period.

So, I could sell this gold easily and make a few quick extra bucks that I could use to get an external hard drive that I've had my eye on. Doesn't mean I'm going to get "addicted" to anything.

I've said it many times before, generalizations are bad. Just like when you say that gold sellers resort to illegal means to get gold to sell, or will, doesn't mean it's true. I'm a perfect example of that. I know a couple of other people that have a hell of a lot more gold to sell than I do, that have sold gold in the past, and I know for a fact that their gold is all legit and don't have to resort to anything illegal to make more.

Gold is very easy to make if you've got the time and the initiative. Even if you're limited to how much time you have it's still easy to make.

[/ QUOTE ]





"Gold is very easy to make if you've got the time and the initiative. Even if you're limited to how much time you have it's still easy to make."



Then no one needs to BUY any for cash. They can just go get it ingame themselves.



Thanks for pointing this out to all of us!



I knew you were on the good guy's (and girl's) side.

 

[Guest]

Buying gold doesnt ruin an economy.
Look at the US. We are printing money like water.
It causes a devaluation. Or inflation.

Since UO is closed economy unlike the US. UO has 100% control.

The problem is GETTING gold by script or normal game play isnt hard.
So gold comes in.

What you actually need to buy in game to play isnt that expensive over time.

You end up with more gold then things to buy.

Why is this such a foriegn concept for some?


Decrease the ease to get gold by CHEATS
Increase gold sinks that remove gold

AND ALL YOU DO IS DECREASE inflation.


Now if I or anyone sells gold. Who cares? Its my business and the buyers. I havent sold gold in months. But I might. Am I really ruining the game. I dont thinks so.

Scripts, Bags of sending, static resources spots, easy kill swoops, those are the things that cause problems for inflation.

Look at it this way, I kill a dark father and get this new really awesome ARTIE. I could care less. If I sell it for RL money. Have I ruined the game. Or did Joe PVPER get something he wants.

Hmmm.

 

[Connor_Graham]

"Then no one needs to BUY any for cash. They can just go get it ingame themselves."

Unless they don't want to. Monster bashing, Merchanting, or other forms of gold making may not be something a player wants to spend any time at all doing. They may only get a short time to play each day/week, and prefer to spend that time doing what they find fun to them instead of doing something they have no interest in. I know a BUNCH of PvP'rs that don't want to do anything but PvP, and have absolutely NO interest AT ALL in doing anything else in UO. Even returning players may want to "catch up" with the economy and all of the changes/new items in the game, and buy a few mil to do so.

There isn't a single thing wrong with selling gold that was obtained legitimately, regardless of the reason the buyer may have for buying it. I could name off a half dozen reasons why someone would want to buy gold, all of them perfectly reasonable.


"Thanks for pointing this out to all of us!"

The only thing I pointed out is that a gold seller can get gold easily and legitimately if they want to.


"I knew you were on the good guy's (and girl's) side."

I always have been, but ya know, I may just sell off 50mil of my "extra" gold, and I'll still be on the "good guy's" side because the gold was obtained legitimately.

 

[Guest]

Exactly
My lawyer friend story is the same.
Hes got money, hell buy gold and go play.
He has less time to play and doesnt want to waste it gold getting.
He buys it.
Because he can.

 

[imported_Coppelia]

<blockquote><hr>

Exactly
My lawyer friend story is the same.
Hes got money, hell buy gold and go play.
He has less time to play and doesnt want to waste it gold getting.
He buys it.
Because he can.

[/ QUOTE ]
If your lawyer friend has no time to actually play and earn his gold ingame, why should he be able to get high-end game content? Because he's rich IRL?
"I'm a rich businessman so I don't have time for lower parts the game huh huh, I deserve to enter directly at the top! Because I'm worth it."

Some people are really mad.


But yeah, go buy your gold with RL cash because botters need to feed their family.


Bunch of idiots, if you realized that buying gold with RL cash is actually hiding the problems of this game, maybe we could have some benefical fixes on this game, instead of nerfs that kill the fun (BoS...).

 

[Paris_Hilton]

<blockquote><hr>

Buying gold doesnt ruin an economy.
Look at the US. We are printing money like water.
It causes a devaluation. Or inflation.

Since UO is closed economy unlike the US. UO has 100% control.

The problem is GETTING gold by script or normal game play isnt hard.
So gold comes in.

What you actually need to buy in game to play isnt that expensive over time.

You end up with more gold then things to buy.

Why is this such a foriegn concept for some?


Decrease the ease to get gold by CHEATS
Increase gold sinks that remove gold

AND ALL YOU DO IS DECREASE inflation.


Now if I or anyone sells gold. Who cares? Its my business and the buyers. I havent sold gold in months. But I might. Am I really ruining the game. I dont thinks so.

Scripts, Bags of sending, static resources spots, easy kill swoops, those are the things that cause problems for inflation.

Look at it this way, I kill a dark father and get this new really awesome ARTIE. I could care less. If I sell it for RL money. Have I ruined the game. Or did Joe PVPER get something he wants.

Hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]





A UO "player" PLAYS THE GAME and doesn't give a rat's ass about inflation in UO.


Seeing dollar signs rather than Doom arties and worrying about the economy in UO is merchant gibberish.


What would a merchant with hundreds of millions of extra gold in UO do with it?



Donate it to a guild?


Buy a newb a house? (ok several newbs)


Drop it in the trashcan to ease inflation and stabilize the economy?



Oh hell no!


They sell it for real cash.



To players. (pvpers)



The gold stays in the economy.



I wonder how many UO "economists" have tossed their excess hundreds of millions of gold in the trash can lately to decrease inflation in UO?



Ye Olde Trash Can



Fastest, bestest gold sinker ever.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Exactly
My lawyer friend story is the same.
Hes got money, hell buy gold and go play.
He has less time to play and doesnt want to waste it gold getting.
He buys it.
Because he can.

[/ QUOTE ]
If your lawyer friend has no time to actually play and earn his gold ingame, why should he be able to get high-end game content? Because he's rich IRL?
"I'm a rich businessman so I don't have time for lower parts the game huh huh, I deserve to enter directly at the top! Because I'm worth it."

Some people are really mad.


But yeah, go buy your gold with RL cash because botters need to feed their family.


Bunch of idiots, if you realized that buying gold with RL cash is actually hiding the problems of this game, maybe we could have some benefical fixes on this game, instead of nerfs that kill the fun (BoS...).

[/ QUOTE ]

Your just being selfish. Reread what you wrote. Now your saying you actually need to have the time to play to play the right way.

Brother.
Its a game. And a game can be played however one wants.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Buying gold doesnt ruin an economy.
Look at the US. We are printing money like water.
It causes a devaluation. Or inflation.

Since UO is closed economy unlike the US. UO has 100% control.

The problem is GETTING gold by script or normal game play isnt hard.
So gold comes in.

What you actually need to buy in game to play isnt that expensive over time.

You end up with more gold then things to buy.

Why is this such a foriegn concept for some?


Decrease the ease to get gold by CHEATS
Increase gold sinks that remove gold

AND ALL YOU DO IS DECREASE inflation.


Now if I or anyone sells gold. Who cares? Its my business and the buyers. I havent sold gold in months. But I might. Am I really ruining the game. I dont thinks so.

Scripts, Bags of sending, static resources spots, easy kill swoops, those are the things that cause problems for inflation.

Look at it this way, I kill a dark father and get this new really awesome ARTIE. I could care less. If I sell it for RL money. Have I ruined the game. Or did Joe PVPER get something he wants.

Hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]





A UO "player" PLAYS THE GAME and doesn't give a rat's ass about inflation in UO.


Seeing dollar signs rather than Doom arties and worrying about the economy in UO is merchant gibberish.


What would a merchant with hundreds of millions of extra gold in UO do with it?



Donate it to a guild?


Buy a newb a house? (ok several newbs)


Drop it in the trashcan to ease inflation and stabilize the economy?



Oh hell no!


They sell it for real cash.



To players. (pvpers)



The gold stays in the economy.



I wonder how many UO "economists" have tossed their excess hundreds of millions of gold in the trash can lately to decrease inflation in UO?



Ye Olde Trash Can



Fastest, bestest gold sinker ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Donate no.
I have bought houses for newbs.
I have given away millions to players that were scammed.

But the problem is, sort of how you stated, gold doesnt come out of the economy.

Be it someone selling it. Or getting it in game.

 

[imported_Coppelia]

<blockquote><hr>

Your just being selfish. Reread what you wrote. Now your saying you actually need to have the time to play to play the right way.

Brother.
Its a game. And a game can be played however one wants.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course you need the time to play the game to be able to play the game.
You said it, it's a game! You don't begin Monopoly with more game money by buying it with real money, that's senseless!
If you don't have time to play the first part of Monopoly (buying plots), that doesn't give you the right to start the party in the middle of the party of other people by buying some of their plots with RL cash. Are you even reading what you write?

Those buying gold with RL money are those who are selfish and don't care about players actually playing the game, and decide some parts of the game are suddenly just options.

But maybe people arguing around real life laws are above the rules of a game.

 

[Paris_Hilton]

<blockquote><hr>

"Then no one needs to BUY any for cash. They can just go get it ingame themselves."

Unless they don't want to. Monster bashing, Merchanting, or other forms of gold making may not be something a player wants to spend any time at all doing. They may only get a short time to play each day/week, and prefer to spend that time doing what they find fun to them instead of doing something they have no interest in. I know a BUNCH of PvP'rs that don't want to do anything but PvP, and have absolutely NO interest AT ALL in doing anything else in UO. Even returning players may want to "catch up" with the economy and all of the changes/new items in the game, and buy a few mil to do so.

There isn't a single thing wrong with selling gold that was obtained legitimately, regardless of the reason the buyer may have for buying it. I could name off a half dozen reasons why someone would want to buy gold, all of them perfectly reasonable.


"Thanks for pointing this out to all of us!"

The only thing I pointed out is that a gold seller can get gold easily and legitimately if they want to.


"I knew you were on the good guy's (and girl's) side."

I always have been, but ya know, I may just sell off 50mil of my "extra" gold, and I'll still be on the "good guy's" side because the gold was obtained legitimately.

[/ QUOTE ]





Am I in the wrong thread?



I thought this thread was entitled:



"Selling gold destroys the uo community?"



Not:



"Selling gold [obtained legitimately] destroys the uo community?"




But yes I just recently figured out it was the pvpers that the gold sellers cater too.



Mythic Mother of Warhammer!



Pvp Reigns Supreme in Mother Mythic's house, so Those Cheater's Who Feed the War Machine Must be Feeling Truly Blessed (Protection?) These Days.



Looks Like We NonPvpers Are Trapped in a Choke Point?



How depressing.

 

[Connor_Graham]

"You don't begin Monopoly with more game money by buying it with real money"

Unless you were here for day 1 of UO, then you have no chance of being here for the "beginning" of the game. UO is perpetual, no beginning and no end. Monopoly is also a board game with clear cut rules as to how to play the game, UO isn't. There are no rules as to how to play other than don't cheat.


"Those buying gold with RL money are those who are selfish and don't care about players actually playing the game"

You're right. I'm very sure that when a person pays monthly for their account, their account is the only one they're concerned about. Do you really care what I do with my time, or what Joe Nextdoorneighbor does with his, or are you concerned about what you do and how you play?


"decide some parts of the game are suddenly just options."

Do you play every single part of the game? For example...Do you garden? Do you have plants in your house? Some people decide that certain parts of the game AREN'T FUN TO THEM, so they don't engage in those parts of the game.


"But maybe people arguing around real life laws are above the rules of a game. "

RL laws have nothing to do with UO. Not one single thing to do with it.

 

[imported_Coppelia]

<blockquote><hr>

"decide some parts of the game are suddenly just options."

Do you play every single part of the game? For example...Do you garden? Do you have plants in your house? Some people decide that certain parts of the game AREN'T FUN TO THEM, so they don't engage in those parts of the game.


[/ QUOTE ]
Of course I don't play all the part of the game, but I don't buy the rewards of that part with RL money. That's the point.

 

[imported_Coppelia]

<blockquote><hr>

Not everyone that buys gold cares about housing plots in luna, uber items for PvP, or messing with your game play.

[/ QUOTE ]
As I said, they indirectly mess with my gameplay, even with the best intentions.

<blockquote><hr>

They buy gold because they need it to enjoy the game. Maybe buy ingots, ore, some stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
And botters can feed their families, everyone is happy, no problem, "bro".

<blockquote><hr>

If a RL cash gold buyer is buying gold and impacting your game, that is a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hence why I'm taking time to reply.

<blockquote><hr>

I just dont think you can lump people like you are.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't. You just bring an example of someone I don't know and show him as a proof of something... so he takes the hits you exposed him to.

<blockquote><hr>

Sorry. Monopoly has a beginning middle and end. UO is much more then that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Monopoly was a simplification of terms for a clearer debate. And it works, because Monopoly is a game and you just said that UO is much more than that.
So, is it a game or not?
Connor said there's no such rule as not buying stuff with RL money in a game. I know, Monopoly rules suck. But at least I'm not paying botters when I buy Monopoly money.


But heh, is there anything in this world that money can't spoil?
Oh yeah, games, those where you can't use RL money to be better!
I stopped playing Magic The Gathering because it was really clear that rich people were rewarded for something that had nothing to do with the game itself.

 

[Connor_Graham]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

"decide some parts of the game are suddenly just options."

Do you play every single part of the game? For example...Do you garden? Do you have plants in your house? Some people decide that certain parts of the game AREN'T FUN TO THEM, so they don't engage in those parts of the game.


[/ QUOTE ]
Of course I don't play all the part of the game, but I don't buy the rewards of that part with RL money. That's the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, but if the part of the game you didn't want to play was the part that you earned gold in, you'd do one of 2 things:

1. Play a part of the game that you hate, hating every second of it and eventually resenting the fact that you were forced to do so, which would eventually lead to you simply quitting and playing something else.

or...

2. Buy the gold from another player and be happy playing the part of the game that you do enjoy, with continued enjoyment for years to come.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Not everyone that buys gold cares about housing plots in luna, uber items for PvP, or messing with your game play.

[/ QUOTE ]
As I said, they indirectly mess with my gameplay, even with the best intentions.

<blockquote><hr>

They buy gold because they need it to enjoy the game. Maybe buy ingots, ore, some stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
And botters can feed their families, everyone is happy, no problem, "bro".

<blockquote><hr>

If a RL cash gold buyer is buying gold and impacting your game, that is a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hence why I'm taking time to reply.

<blockquote><hr>

I just dont think you can lump people like you are.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't. You just bring an example of someone I don't know and show him as a proof of something... so he takes the hits you exposed him to.

<blockquote><hr>

Sorry. Monopoly has a beginning middle and end. UO is much more then that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Monopoly was a simplification of terms for a clearer debate. And it works, because Monopoly is a game and you just said that UO is much more than that.
So, is it a game or not?
Connor said there's no such rule as not buying stuff with RL money in a game. I know, Monopoly rules suck. But at least I'm not paying botters when I buy Monopoly money.


But heh, is there anything in this world that money can't spoil?
Oh yeah, games, those where you can't use RL money to be better!
I stopped playing Magic The Gathering because it was really clear that rich people were rewarded for something that had nothing to do with the game itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said it. You dont know him. Yet you seem to know him.

Ill just politely agree and disagree with you.

Some people bot and script. And make a living selling gold.
Some people sell some gold here and there.

Some people buy gold and ruin the game.
Other buy gold and go on their merry way.

I see the harm is some circumstances. Not all

But still feel the game economy isnt effect by RL buying and selling.

The problem is the bots and scripts and ease of getting gold.
UO did a great job addressing this with resources randomizing, BOS changes, and such.

Now they need to create for players to use gold. Gold that is used and removed from game.

But remember that is only about inflation. All youll get with that is less gold in the economy.

Not a fix of the economy. If there is no reason to buy sell and trade, the economy wont be swinging.

 

[imported_Coppelia]

<blockquote><hr>

Ah, but if the part of the game you didn't want to play was the part that you earned gold in, you'd do one of 2 things:

1. Play a part of the game that you hate, hating every second of it and eventually resenting the fact that you were forced to do so, which would eventually lead to you simply quitting and playing something else.

or...

2. Buy the gold from another player and be happy playing the part of the game that you do enjoy, with continued enjoyment for years to come.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I would stop playing this game.That's all.

 

[Connor_Graham]

"No, I would stop playing this game.That's all. "

That's exactly the point. There are a LOT of people that want to buy gold so they don't have to stop playing. That would be a LOT of lost subscriptions.

 

[imported_Coppelia]

<blockquote><hr>

"No, I would stop playing this game.That's all. "

That's exactly the point. There are a LOT of people that want to buy gold so they don't have to stop playing. That would be a LOT of lost subscriptions.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why keep players playing for the wrong reasons? Because UO needs subscriptions so bad?
That's exactly the problem : instead of thinking about a system to bring players that have fun, devs wouldn't see that players actually hate playing it (because earning gold is the basis of the game).
If you don't like buying plots and building hotels to make opponents pay, but just want to babble around the board and say "vroom vroom" with the car figurine, don't play Monopoly.

If you don't like how gold is earned in UO, then you don't need a lot of it. You only need it to play the part required to earn some more. Plenty of things to do without money, lots of players will confirm. If that's not enough, then UO is not enough. Then bye.

 

[Connor_Graham]

"Why keep players playing for the wrong reasons?"

That's the quandry right there.

Who's to say if it's wrong or not?

Well, EA says it's ok as long as it's handled through something like right here on Stratics. Since they're the ones that make the rules, and they say it's ok, then it must be.

The only thing that would make it not ok is if the gold was obtained illegally.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

"You don't begin Monopoly with more game money by buying it with real money"

Unless you were here for day 1 of UO, then you have no chance of being here for the "beginning" of the game. UO is perpetual, no beginning and no end. Monopoly is also a board game with clear cut rules as to how to play the game, UO isn't. There are no rules as to how to play other than don't cheat.


"Those buying gold with RL money are those who are selfish and don't care about players actually playing the game"

You're right. I'm very sure that when a person pays monthly for their account, their account is the only one they're concerned about. Do you really care what I do with my time, or what Joe Nextdoorneighbor does with his, or are you concerned about what you do and how you play?


"decide some parts of the game are suddenly just options."

Do you play every single part of the game? For example...Do you garden? Do you have plants in your house? Some people decide that certain parts of the game AREN'T FUN TO THEM, so they don't engage in those parts of the game.


"But maybe people arguing around real life laws are above the rules of a game. "

RL laws have nothing to do with UO. Not one single thing to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]


Just a point of interest.

Gold used to sell $30 per million. About 6 years ago or something.

It wasnt until the dupe that produced trillions did you get inflation like this. It has nothing to do with selling the gold.

It just looks funny to see 50 million gold for $75. The dupe occured and people didnt just do it to make RL money. They did it because they could cheat.

We really have no idea how much gold... dupe or not and duped items are in the game. Thats the stuff that effects the economy.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

If you don't like how gold is earned in UO, then you don't need a lot of it. You only need it to play the part required to earn some more. Plenty of things to do without money, lots of players will confirm. If that's not enough, then UO is not enough. Then bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that every player that has ever purchased gold or an item for RL $$ is worthless to the game?

Cheating, duping and scripting are the reasons UO's economy is crazy, not gold selling.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

If you don't like how gold is earned in UO, then you don't need a lot of it. You only need it to play the part required to earn some more. Plenty of things to do without money, lots of players will confirm. If that's not enough, then UO is not enough. Then bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that every player that has ever purchased gold or an item for RL $$ is worthless to the game?

Cheating, duping and scripting are the reasons UO's economy is crazy, not gold selling.

[/ QUOTE ]


Cheating, duping and scripting... Ah a sane comment. Did I mention I agree.

 

[imported_Coppelia]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

If you don't like how gold is earned in UO, then you don't need a lot of it. You only need it to play the part required to earn some more. Plenty of things to do without money, lots of players will confirm. If that's not enough, then UO is not enough. Then bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that every player that has ever purchased gold or an item for RL $$ is worthless to the game?

Cheating, duping and scripting are the reasons UO's economy is crazy, not gold selling.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not what I was saying in the quote you made, but on most of MMORPGs, people put eBayer in the head of the to-be-banned train because without demand, most of botting would be pointless. And I wrote "most" for a reason, don't try to make me say something I didn't.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Those buying gold with RL money are those who are selfish and don't care about players actually playing the game, and decide some parts of the game are suddenly just options.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see anything about 'Most' players in this statement...or the one I quoted previously, either...

Do you really think that if EA made gold-selling illegal, that cheating/duping/scripting would magically go away? Do you think cheaters and those that disregard authority in general would stop selling gold?

Nope. People cheat because they can. Like someone said before in the thread, there are entire books and magazines dedicated to cheats. There's no RL profit to be derived from cheating at a single-player game, but it's wildly popular.

It's silly to assume you know the intentions of those that buy gold. How about if they bought items from EA and sold them in-game for gold? Are they also selfish and uncaring?

Also...why should those successful in RL be penalized in-game? Some people have demanding jobs and busy lives. Why shouldn't they have other options to be monetarily successful in-game besides grinding away for hours? UO is a source of entertainment and relaxation for many. If someone wants to spend a little more $$ on their entertainment that month, I believe they should have every right to do so, legally.

Part of the allure of UO is the ability to play the game as you choose. Taking away options does not facilitate freedom.

 

[HD2300]

selling gold leads to more players with gold
more players with gold leads to higher prices
higher prices forces players to either grind endlessly, or quit, or buy more gold, or cheat/script/scam for gold.

 

[Guest]

...


If you don't like how gold is earned in UO, then you don't need a lot of it. You only need it to play the part required to earn some more. Plenty of things to do without money, lots of players will confirm. If that's not enough, then UO is not enough. Then bye.


What is the functional ingame difference between the following two situations:

1. Someone sells another player 10 million gold and transfers that gold to the person who purchased it.

2. Someone gives another player 10 million gold for free and transfers the gold to that person.

When you can tell me the difference from the standpoint of what is happening INSIDE the game, then get back to me.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

selling gold leads to more players with gold (quicker ... thats why the gp was bought ... "quicker")

more players with gold leads to higher prices(Higher prices are due to what "the market will bear" artie prices are going down ... armor and weapons too ... Less gold in system?

)

higher prices forces players to either grind endlessly, or quit, or buy more gold, or cheat/script/scam for gold.
(The game itself is "a grind" a time waster ...there is "no end" ... its a virtual hamster wheel ... watch a cage of hamsters ... some are on the wheel, some are sleeping, some are fighting, some are digging, some are dieing, some are birthing, some are just scratching at the glass ... same things tommorow ... same cage ...

)

some people cheat at solitare
some don't
some people can earn a living playing solitare
lot of people would starve trying ... natural bad luck and time constraints

Monopoly? poor basis for analogy ... real monopoly has a limited none generated cash supply ...
and

has an ending.

 

[Paris_Hilton]

<blockquote><hr>

...


If you don't like how gold is earned in UO, then you don't need a lot of it. You only need it to play the part required to earn some more. Plenty of things to do without money, lots of players will confirm. If that's not enough, then UO is not enough. Then bye.


What is the functional in game difference between the following two situations:

1. Someone sells another player 10 million gold and transfers that gold to the person who purchased it.

2. Someone gives another player 10 million gold for free and transfers the gold to that person.

When you can tell me the difference from the standpoint of what is happening INSIDE the game, then get back to me.

[/ QUOTE ]




I'd like to be friends with someone #2 in game, you know, do some Peerless with them, maybe attempt some Fel champ spawns...


because they are a UO "player".




I'd be afraid someone #1 was only interested in me in game because my stuff



equals




$$$$






to them.





Because they are a UO "worker".

*Holds up a string of garlic and a wooden stake*




PS: Don't pretend like YOU are the only person who has ever played UO.


Of course many of us know what lengths SOME (ok MOST) gold sellers go to to acquire their "sales" items in game: Duping, exploiting, hacking.


Puh leez.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

...


If you don't like how gold is earned in UO, then you don't need a lot of it. You only need it to play the part required to earn some more. Plenty of things to do without money, lots of players will confirm. If that's not enough, then UO is not enough. Then bye.


What is the functional ingame difference between the following two situations:

1. Someone sells another player 10 million gold and transfers that gold to the person who purchased it.

2. Someone gives another player 10 million gold for free and transfers the gold to that person.

When you can tell me the difference from the standpoint of what is happening INSIDE the game, then get back to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that player 2 does not use UO as a source of income. Player 2 just got rid of some gold that was surplus. Player 1 has an incentive to go out and farm more gold in order to sell it again. It's not so much the transfer of gold between players in itself as the behaviour before and after the transfer that causes a problem.

If you can sell gold, then there is a RL incentive to play in ways that maximise your gold-getting.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

When you can tell me the difference from the standpoint of what is happening INSIDE the game, then get back to me.

You pretty much addressed the challenge ..."from the outside of game" ... didn't you ?

difference from the standpoint of what is happening INSIDE the game wasn't acknowleged as "0"
...
ingame ...witnessing just one exchange of the gp ... coin toss odds of identifying it ... as #1 or #2
witnessing both exchange's of the gp .... still a coin toss whether #1 or #2 occurred first ...
even IF both occurances were a pair of #1s or a pair of #2s ... coin toss ...
ingame ... theres no difference.

Making wild ass guess's about everything Outside of the game ...

Need to get a license from Paris

 

[imported_Coppelia]

There's no player inside the game they are outside. And they make difference from outside. What do you mean by inside/outside?

The topic is the impact on the community and not the direct impact on ingame economy. And for your question about giving or selling, like Paidric I don't think give a fortune to a newcomer is good.

Players don't cheat because they can, otherwise everybody would cheat. Stop sophisms.
And this is not about allowing or not, because you know very well that you could say the same with scripts. They would be forbidden, it wouldn't change anything. Oh wait, they are. Does it change anything? In fact I tend to say yes, that prevents a part of the population to do so.
You could argue all night long, if I don't have the time to play like our lawyer, why should I be banned for botting my character? I don't have time to raise its skills! And why would you ban my ressource gatherer bot, I don't have time to mine, lumberjack and all, but I need a few ingots heh!

But I don't care, buy your gold, ingots and wood, but then don't cry when you see all the bots working hard to get what you demand.
And in terms of ingame economy, as there would be no point in having too much money without being able to convert into real currency, there would be no point in risking an account to bot for ingame ressources. That means less gold, and less ressources.
But with RMT, there's a point in cumulatig ingame fortune : making business. Is it still a game then? No. And if you're stopping yourself from botting because it's "forbidden", you're just stupid. There's real money to get. The risks are ridiculous, the income is real. Your game RIP.