REAL skill should offer a much better bonus than "beefed up" skill level.....

[EnigmaMaitreya]

That's quite the point, IMHO.

We have a SET skill CAP of 720 points and yet, this CAP is a joke because it is broken through by skill items ?

Mind you, not merely of a few points, we are talking here of a skill CAP SET at 720 points which can be broken (at least in theory) by 10 x 15 = 150 points not to mention all those extra points that can come from artifacts, talismans or pieces of wearables !!

Let's say 200 points ?

So we have a skill CAP of 720 points that CAN be punched through for some 28% ???????

And this is not absurd ?

It is NOT about something being absurd or not, as that can at the absolute best be nothing more than a subjective opinion.

It is 100% about this is the way it is NOW. Lamenting about the choices made in the past is simply whining.

A number of players have altered their play style to accommodate Skill+ Items. PvM encounters have been altered to accommodate the players USING the Skill+ Items.

Any thing proposed in this thread does NOT alter anything. It only cause change for the sake of change and no other reason.

It is like making a proposal to an addict of Oh instead of doing it at 1PM do it at 1:15PM and everything will be better.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

hrmm you should really try to actually read my post before you flame. i said 6x120 natural skill should get a perk. and fyi, if you have ever played or played against one of these bokuto- necro dread/cu -tamer mage hybrids all +item'd out you will discover just how over the top they really are. they can insta kill if the rng lines up.

I read your post and chose to reply to THE POST, NOT YOU, but hey of the shoe fits then don't come to me about how you got flamed.

As to the later part, the absolutely most obvious rebuttal is, either suck it up and become a player of THEIR LEVEL or find a field where othrs are playing on YOUR LEVEL.

There is NO NEED to be the center of all of creation. Demanding EVERY ONE be brought down to your level.

Some member(s) of some UO Team, some where in the past made an analysis of UO at that time and made a choice to give even greater diversity by creating Skill+ items. This is the world we live in NOW.

What do you really believe for one instant that they are going to ... alienate a ... number of people and TAKE BACK WHAT THEY GAVE? That they will willingly REBALANCE THE PvM ENCOUNTERS?

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

This is one senseless discussion.

There is no unfair imbalance, because everyone can get skill jewels or items.

THere is no skill that goes beyond 120, real or with skill jewels.

Then please answer to me, WHY the total of skill points WAS INDEED set with a CAP of 720 total points ?

And, if I may ask you again, WHAT is a CAP supposed to mean if not a WALL, a LIMIT that should NOT be passed ?

Now, if I can ask again, what happens when one uses +skill items ?
Perhaps what was supposed to be a CAP, a LIMIT gets punched through and what was a 720 limit no longer is such ??

if you get skill points on your jewels you don't get the other cool mods, like HCI, DCI that are very powerful also.

While some skills may not be as usefull, some are. Personally, I see, for example, a 7th skill like Spellweaving. perhaps at 6th Circle, with all of its spells, summons and so forth quite much better than whatever HCI, DCI or else one may want........
And that is merely an example....

I have characters that are using real skill only, and characters that use extra skill items, neither is more powerful than the other. Just different.

I need to dissent, a 7th or even an 8th skill can be quite better than alternate mods, depends on the skill of course....

I can't escape the feeling that one particular posters in this thread is just whining like I have not seen anyone else do on these boards.... I read back through some more post of this individual, and he is just one unhappy complainer. He keeps making these holier than thou arguments in all his posts that basically suggest that everyone should be as poor as he is, run around naked without extraneous mods, using templates that he approves so that he feels like he can compete. Well, if he wants that he can pick up a nice game of Tetris and try to get a high score, or Pong. This is a much more complex game and the social and economic fabric, although far from ideal and certainly not perfect, make this the unbelievable game it is.

Not sure who you may be referring to. Personally, I care for THE GAME and think that putting too much of a barrier in between newcomers/returning players and existing, established players, HURTS THE GAME.

When a game needs too much catching up from new players or returning players this can work against increasing the number of subscriptions.
It is not about having anyone as poor as anyone else, it is about not making that gap too hard to cover and too widening that players who do not have the time at hand or the resources to bridge it may think "why bother" ?

So, protecting those who have more time at hand or more wealth, means to me increasing that GAP so that it might work as a deterrant towards newcomers or returning players who, after trying to catch up, may give up seeing the task as too far to be seen as reachable.

Their giving up, means loss of subscriptions to the game.........

1) It is painfully obvious that the OP just cant understand the fact that skill items are obtainable & usable by all so quite fair. The OP vainly tries to use new players as a basis for his argument and it backfires quite quickly. Ever see a new Tamer or Mage without a skill item of some sort? They all use them, new and old. Either way a new player not being able to obtain a certain high-level skill item is absolutely no different then that same player not being able to obtain certain Artifacts or rares instantly. The foundation of Uo and why it is an MMORPG and not Monopoly.



2) "CAP, WALL, LIMIT" are nothing more then 3 words in the English language. The OP seems to believe(with a scary sort of Rain Man zeal I might add)that these 3 words govern Uo. They do not govern Uo and they never have.
Obviously one of the absolute best things about Uo since day 1 has been the ability to create a variety of different templates/characters(pvm and/or pvp).
Skill items are a part of this and have been forever.

Many, many times over the years after a long and fun battle against a new adversary I have had great conversations about certain tactics or template styles the person used.
In some cases I have died to a wild new template and realized that the person was quite smart and obviously spent ALOT of time and effort into putting it all together. Bravo.
This person did not cheat or diminish the player that chose to cap himself at 720.

We all make choices based upon what the Devs have ALLOWED us to do.
The OP'S choice is to not go over 720 and whine about losing to another player that does go over 720. And yes, the OP has whined about exactly that in this thread. Pathetic.

3) Any experienced pvper fully realizes that the time, dedication, smarts and effort it takes to create a unique template with or without skill jewels FAR outweighs the time it takes to train a similar template to only 720.
And yes, the Op's own words make it very clear that he is talking about pvp when it comes to skill items.

4) This thread hurts my head too much to go on any further If this thread were something that I stepped in whilst walking through a pasture I would throw out my shoes.

Peace

 

[popps]

What do you really believe for one instant that they are going to ... alienate a ... number of people and TAKE BACK WHAT THEY GAVE?

Did I say take the +skills items away ?

Nope, I did NOT.

I said give a BONUS, a good, sound and meaningfull bonus to those who actually TRAINED their real skill all the way up which makes all the sense in the world to me since those players who actually trained their 6 skills all the way up to 120 DESERVE to have more than other players who stopped, say, at 90 or 100..........

This is MORE, EXTRA, PLUS without taking +skill items away.

 

[Wenchkin]

In my opinion, and it's just that, an opinion...I think effort should get a higher reward than doing nothing, or throwing gold around. But UO does mirror RL in this respect, sometimes the least hard working get the rewards and others will work like crazy for nowt. Unfairness is a fact of life which we have to accept, but I think the current skill gain and boosting system is stupid, over complicated and as far from entertaining and addictive as it gets.

See what you think...

We have a training system which hasn't really changed since I started almost 10 years ago.
Skill items that compete with an array of other mods to get onto our bodies.
Powerscrolls taking us to 120 skill.
Yet more scrolls for training us faster or simply adding skill points right on.
And that's before we get into skill training with golems, satyrs and so on.

I look at that list and think "crazy". Well I think other things too, but the rules prevent those from being posted

I think we have a lot of "sticky plaster" items covering up a fundamentally flawed training system, and I really wish EA would quit adding more plasters and just fix the skill gain system and simplify the game. All that EA have done is cleverly hooked some players on their uber items and distracted them from complaining about the underlying problems. Which is a bit of a pattern for UO And while I'm equipped and trained on my toons, the new player entering UO with his 1k must really wonder where on earth to start.

I'm guessing soon enough it'll be uber advanced char tokens that give you a completely built char for $30, or they'll give us the test centre set skill commands and be done with it lol.

Wenchy

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

In my opinion, and it's just that, an opinion...I'm guessing soon enough it'll be uber advanced char tokens that give you a completely built char for $30, or they'll give us the test centre set skill commands and be done with it lol.

Wenchy

It wont be the Test Center commands.

I can only see UO moving more and more towards the commercial rewards system (aka your $30US for a completely custom built character). In most respects I have no issues with this as I would most certainly prefer the dollars to go to UO than to the ..... 3rd party companies. To be clear, I would NOT use such a system because I do believe there are hidden attributes to everything, and part of my raising up a character is to LEARN THAT CHARACTERS LIMITATIONS, its strengths, its weakness. That enables me to play that character to the best of my ability. It also allows me to adapt my play style to take the best advantage of that characters abilities.

I would like to put on a hat of dreams and assume that some how UO would no longer have 3rd party .... things, but I feel it is completely safe, for the immediate future, to assume that is not going to happen.

While I am on this platform, I will say I would like it if they reverted everything back to T2A or just before that. Again, that isn't going to happen.

I do not mind change but to have change for the sake of change is .... well just that, I do not have a chair to sit down in, so lets start the music and everyone must move around again so I can get a chair.

I obviously disagree with your assertion that because one has 120.0 in a skill that they some how worked harder to get it. How convenient that you categorize your effort as REAL effort and categorize the effort made by others as FAKE effort.

Neither is more real than the other they are just differing forms of manifesting the effort made to achieve the template one wants.

 

[popps]

Care to tell another lie?

I am not sure what you mean, all I know is that I never played World of Warcraft and never even got interested into it.
I would imagine I knew which game I played or got interested into........

Ok, so a new player should have the 1.5+ billion worth of stuff that it's taken me nearly 5 years to obtain within a few months? Bull****.

Who cares about the billions, my point is merely about making new comers or returning players feel that their task to "catch up" is not a Mission Impossible one and that not necessarily having to play 24/7 new/returning players CAN catch up with existing ones in a reasonable time.

And, luckily, the Developers seem to be on the right patch with the replica items and the new Factions........

What is important is that in a reasonable time, which IMHO is a few months, any player, even starting from scratch CAN be effective in PvP which means being also able to put together some reasonable amount of gold that allows one to cover the high end gear, weapons, powerscrolls and so forth needed to compete head to head at high levels.

Now, if only Ultima Online picked up some of the old flavour of a skill based game and become less dependant on items it would be wonderfull.........

 

[popps]

And while I'm equipped and trained on my toons, the new player entering UO with his 1k must really wonder where on earth to start.

Same feeling.

Well said, concise and right on spot.

 

[Warpig Inc]

This is the world I/We play in and we have addapted and use the tools available. Untill the tool breaks or is taken from us lets keep banging away on stuff. After going through all the post and the OP's hate for items .......... WHERE IS THE JOIN US ON SEIGE POST????......LOL

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

And while I'm equipped and trained on my toons, the new player entering UO with his 1k must really wonder where on earth to start.

Same feeling.

Well said, concise and right on spot.

I would say this is true of any person that has never played a MMORPG.

Anyone that has played is not going to fit that profile.

Any returning to UO (ME for example) is not going to be confused or wonder were or what to do. They are going to, in varying degrees, wonder WTF did they do to UO. Once they get over the shock, they are going to get down to it and start a) revamping existing characters OR b) start a new character.

One thing ALL MMORPG'S have in common is this simple Golden Rule.

"In Game Currency is the path to solving all your in game problems/issues".

And UO Gold Faucets are 100% open as well as any number of places to buy gold for under a $1.00US per 1 Million Gold. For the record, I despise both of these things being true. But it is the current UO reality.

Any Shard Forum Board, Profession Board, UHall is going to give the New Player all the direction they will need or want to be successful in UO.

Stratics itself is probably all the new player really needs, with all of its write ups etc.

I would go so far as to say the amount of information is so over whelming as to be on the verge of being a problem for the new player.

So no, I do not agree with the assertion being made.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Who cares about the billions, my point is merely about making new comers or returning players feel that their task to "catch up" is not a Mission Impossible one and that not necessarily having to play 24/7 new/returning players CAN catch up with existing ones in a reasonable time.

A new player will never be able to catch up to someone that's been playing 10 years because that vet player will always have 10 years worth of game time more than a new player. This isn't that hard a concept to grasp. I don't know why you seem to think every player should be created equal in the game anyway. People have what they work for, they don't get it handed to them after they've been playing for a month.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

A new player will never be able to catch up to someone that's been playing 10 years because that vet player will always have 10 years worth of game time more than a new player....

Screw that they have 10 Years of Rewards.

I can not say just how irritating it is to me that the Poof Mounts can NOT be used by anyone that has them as just one example. Dye Tubs .....

The Skill cap of +5 per year to what 720?

I do believe there is a Stat cap increase as well is there not?

These things as an aggregate make the difference between the 1 year and the 11 year .... HUGE.

 

[popps]

One thing ALL MMORPG'S have in common is this simple Golden Rule.

"In Game Currency is the path to solving all your in game problems/issues".

And UO Gold Faucets are 100% open as well as any number of places to buy gold for under a $1.00US per 1 Million Gold. For the record, I despise both of these things being true. But it is the current UO reality.

I am sorry, but over the years I have played UO, and they were quite a few, I never ever sold or bought anything.
I disagree with a game where new players may feel somehow obligated to have to spend real money to be competitive and catch up with other players.

This is a game and the only charge, IMHO, should be its subscription fee and the occasional purchase of expansion boxes/codes and such.

To my opinion, it was the worst thing to happen to UO when items/accounts started being sold/bought for real money and, I think, it was detrimental to the game.

 

[Lynk]

I do not mind change but to have change for the sake of change is .... well just that, I do not have a chair to sit down in, so lets start the music and everyone must move around again so I can get a chair.

........

WTF

 

[Serafi]

Originally Posted by Wenchkin

And while I'm equipped and trained on my toons, the new player entering UO with his 1k must really wonder where on earth to start.

Same feeling.

Well said, concise and right on spot.

And that is bad? How? Isn`t that what any new player feels in any MMO they start to play? Isn`t that part of the new player experience, getting to learn how to make enough gold to get by? What`s more - I think ruining that first gap is actually cheapening the experience for new players.

 

[Konge]

Popps I can't help but notice your rapid change in arguments... First It was that 8-10 skill chars were amazingly more powerful than 6x120 chars. Then it was people who use +skill items are lazy. Then It was uo has a CAP and caps shouldn't be blah blah blah... Now it's new players can't catch up to vets... so I'm going to answer all your arguments here and you're going to ignore this post and keep saying the same thing over and over again so I'm just going to copy and paste theses? Okay?

1. "10 skill templates are grosely overpowered to 6x120"- No. You loose bonuses to have those extra skills. For your spell weaving example? You loose lower mana cost and MR, thus limiting the amount of spells you can cast while someone who is 6x120 can run around with 100lrc 40lmc and 14 mr. Or a 10 skill dexor wouldn't have hci/dci/di so them vs any 6x120 dexor so the dexor would win? Why? 120 weapon skill vs 120 weapon skill with 45hci/dci. Sure they have some tricks up their sleaves but they'll be exhaused, because at that skill amount, 10 skills? they're not gonna have the mana for anything game changing so your point on this is moot. next argument.

2 "They don't TRAIN for their skills cuz back in my day we hiked up a mountain in a blizzard while only wearing sox while taming that ki-rin/unicorn..." Of course they don't work. They only spend countless hours/days/weeks/months/years in some cases, working out a template, getting the items needed for it, the resources, crafting, refiguring their template and suits together so their char is effective, also sacrificing mods. See point 1. Again... dead in the water, so to point 3!

3. The Devs obviously planned for the +skill jewels to excede the cap, other wise... guess what? They wouldn't. It's been many many years, since AoS if I remember right, I'm not sure anymore. They still go over the cap, I'm pretty sure it's intended. And it's not like it doesn't come without comprimises and consequences. They loose a LOT do to that. again. Moot point, I see a patern here!

4. "New players can't catch up to vets because of the huge difference in monitary value of the equipment of those darn skill bonus users!" Okay... So what you're saying, is that they should be able to get an 8-10 skill suit relatively easily, but not artifacts or anything else because guess what? This thread isn't ABOUT MAKING THINGS EASIER FOR NEW PLAYERS. I thought you would know, I mean, you did MAKE this didn't you? Why complain about only this? But okay, I'll shoot it down anyway. New players use + skill bonuses a lot. They don't have the money for these amazing 10skill suits that are so much better than 6x120 in your mind because why? It takes vets time and money to get them! We work our asses off and spend billions to make our template fantasy useable and you want to give it on a silver platter to the guy who just made a char? You gotta work for it. Also, a 7x100 skill char is good enough to start things off with, I know cuz I was a new char! and I used that 7x100 char till I got money to put some 120's in it! MOOT POINT.

5. "Imbuling going to make the suits amazingly easier to get" Didn't you just whine about them being too hard to get for new players? My god man! Yes it will, but here's the trade off. First you have to train imbuling and max it out. 2nd you need to get a bunch of items to unravel, and they have to be decent items. 3rd you begin imbuling. now to get +15 skills you need to use rare resources? Guess what! you're gonna have to shell out some money or farm 'em for each +15 or 90%+ intensity mod on your jewel. Sure you could go with 85% for a cheaper version but there's also the thing about the more mods you put on that item, the harder it is to imbule = more failed attempts. Now lastly... IT'S TEMPORARY. Guess what that means? You're gonna have to do it again, and again, and again, and again. now note just to be clear, this information is from the public information on imbuling that was mentioned earlier this year on Uhall so this is subject to change.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I am sorry, but over the years I have played UO, and they were quite a few, I never ever sold or bought anything.
I disagree with a game where new players may feel somehow obligated to have to spend real money to be competitive and catch up with other players.

This is a game and the only charge, IMHO, should be its subscription fee and the occasional purchase of expansion boxes/codes and such.

To my opinion, it was the worst thing to happen to UO when items/accounts started being sold/bought for real money and, I think, it was detrimental to the game.

I do not disagree with your sympathies, I have so far been able to resist 100% using any 3rd party services, including the purchase of Gold.

But in reality, THIS UO is more or less premised on the existence and use of 3rd Party Suppliers. Hence my position that I would prefer the money spent on 3rd party suppliers be vectored to the UO Team and not the 3rd Party Suppliers. This should keep the Real Life Currency in the UO family and should manifest itself with a better product.

The changes this thread seeks, do not really change anything, in my opinion and the argument for the New Player is in my opinion, more closely aligned to a fantasy than to reality.

The very first lesson I learned within the first 2 weeks of UO being open for business was the cold hard reality that in game currency dramatically improved your chances of success. (Not literally the first, that was to learn to cast Night Vision BEFORE entering a Dungeon. In those days, Dark was REALLY DARK).

Hence my position that the assertion that was made would only apply to truly new to MMORPG people.

As to the need to buy your way into UO with Real Life Currency. I have been on record in the past and will reassert that position. It is incredibly disingenuous of established players to assert that new (any definition of new) players do NOT need to buy Gold/Items. A poster mentioned Billions of Gold (a bit of an exaggeration) and you refuted them. In my opinion, the poster was right and your wrong. Although I have resisted the services, I did so because it was of no value to me to zoom from 0 to 100 in the shortest possible time frame. I have a lot to unlearn about the Old UO game rules and then to learn about the Current UO game rules. I am doing just that and getting the things I need. I have spent probably close to 50+ Million Gold on items to equip my 2 accounts. Most all of this gold came from selling higher end pets, which required a lot of effort on my part to get. Had I not had access to that revenue stream then I would be a lot farther behind or a lot closer to buying Gold. I really do hate the fact that to be equipped right in this UO, you either accept charity OR you need a LOT OF GOLD.

I can readily as in easily see how others will want to go a lot faster than me as they would have a lot less to unlearn and learn than I do and would consider my path as .... a problem that can be solved for less than $20US.

A thought to ponder, when I left UO, 4 Million Gold was more than anyone ever needed to play UO. In this current UO 4 Million Gold is BENEATH CHUMP CHANGE (aka pocket change).

 

[Wenchkin]

It wont be the Test Center commands.
I obviously disagree with your assertion that because one has 120.0 in a skill that they some how worked harder to get it. How convenient that you categorize your effort as REAL effort and categorize the effort made by others as FAKE effort.

Neither is more real than the other they are just differing forms of manifesting the effort made to achieve the template one wants.

My assertion has always been that animal taming is not a hard skill to raise, just a time consuming one. The word I used was effort, I didn't say "blood, sweat and tears". However, training the skill must take a bit more than equipping items or you wouldn't have chosen that option. You'd be at your chosen skill cap and we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Allowing for shopping time it takes no more than a day to grab an advanced char token, make your tamer and equip some items. He can then receive a stable full of pets.

Training the skill manually, even to GM level, takes more than a day. To 120 is considerably longer. It may be simple and straightforward but there is effort involved.

Skills aren't armour and weapons, they're the foundation for a character. Having the ability to progress in skill lets a character take on bigger foes and explore the game. So a new player shouldn't be at a disadvantage in his skill gain rate because of his bank balance. Skill gain is necessary for him to advance. Good items are nice, but he's not going to get a taste of the game until his skills enable him to survive. If he takes the time to train a skill he should be at an advantage over the player who simply whipped out his credit card and bought some shiny jewels. Advanced tokens are bad enough, skill items on top make training the daft thing to do. Why waste your time chasing a bull around when that ring enables you to go out and play with peerless?

Wenchy

 

[Viper09]

Why is this thread still going?

Nothing but the same 3-4 people going back and forth...

 

[popps]

Popps I can't help but notice your rapid change in arguments... First It was that 8-10 skill chars were amazingly more powerful than 6x120 chars. Then it was people who use +skill items are lazy. Then It was uo has a CAP and caps shouldn't be blah blah blah... Now it's new players can't catch up to vets...

Well, don't discussions over topics evolve into side arguments ?

I don't know others, but sometimes when talking with friends I can start talking about the wheather and end up talking about vacations, global warming and a variety of other topics.......

I do not see anything wrong that a discussion may evolve into other topics.
Besides, as I see it, the arguments you mention are all related and connected so it is not like one is changing topic, entirely.........

1. "10 skill templates are grosely overpowered to 6x120"- No. You loose bonuses to have those extra skills. For your spell weaving example? You loose lower mana cost and MR, thus limiting the amount of spells you can cast while someone who is 6x120 can run around with 100lrc 40lmc and 14 mr.

Not necessarily, one can have a good suit AND, when a Mage, also reach 100 LRC, especially since the Lieautnant Sash has been made available once again as a replica......
Sure, it may cost lots of millions but that is covered by my other side argument........new/returning players catching up........

Or a 10 skill dexor wouldn't have hci/dci/di so them vs any 6x120 dexor so the dexor would win? Why? 120 weapon skill vs 120 weapon skill with 45hci/dci. Sure they have some tricks up their sleaves but they'll be exhaused, because at that skill amount, 10 skills? they're not gonna have the mana for anything game changing so your point on this is moot. next argument.

How about having a Dread Mare buddy help out in the fight ?
Having met any of these "dexors" ??

2 "They don't TRAIN for their skills cuz back in my day we hiked up a mountain in a blizzard while only wearing sox while taming that ki-rin/unicorn..." Of course they don't work. They only spend countless hours/days/weeks/months/years in some cases, working out a template, getting the items needed for it, the resources, crafting, refiguring their template and suits together so their char is effective, also sacrificing mods. See point 1. Again... dead in the water, so to point 3!

Well, I do not see why the work of those who train their skills all the way up to 120, and it can be painfull, could and should not be prized significantly.

As I said, +skill items can well stay in the game, what it is needed, is perks to gratify significantly those who actually train their skill, and past 90-100 when it most hurts, all the way to 120.

3. The Devs obviously planned for the +skill jewels to excede the cap, other wise... guess what? They wouldn't. It's been many many years, since AoS if I remember right, I'm not sure anymore. They still go over the cap,

Well, it has happened to me several times to see patches in online games, accompanied by fixes, because things where "not working as intended"........

I would not be surprised if sometimes in the future we'd might get a patch in UO telling us that +skill items where intended to help, but WITHIN the 720 CAP limit, not beyond it.

Was it a bug ? Overlooked ?
Developers are busy, they may change over time and it can be that things get postponed or overlooked. Has this been the case for +skill items ? I have no idea.

All I know is that the 720 skill points was a CAP and to me a CAP is meant as a hard limit, something that should not be punched through......

I am fine with +skill items helping WITHIN the 720 skill CAP, I am NOT fine with them getting around it and punching a hole through the CAP........

We work our asses off and spend billions to make our template fantasy useable and you want to give it on a silver platter to the guy who just made a char? You gotta work for it. Also, a 7x100 skill char is good enough to start things off with, I know cuz I was a new char! and I used that 7x100 char till I got money to put some 120's in it!

I bolded a part which I see as VERY relevant to the discussion and which should raise all ears up to Developers.....
A game where too huge a monetary resource is needed to be competitive (billions.......), is not a game with good chances at a high number of subscriptions, IMHO, but it only remain niche with those old players without getting many new ones who get frightened by the huge costs involved with "catching up".
With this I am not saying hand out easily, but neither a player should feel playing the game 24/7 for months on end or years before being able to be truly competitive, IMHO.

5. "Imbuling going to make the suits amazingly easier to get" Didn't you just whine about them being too hard to get for new players?

Easier for those who have billions on hand to spend..........
The problem is that for those with the wealth it WILL make it possible to pin point the best set up, only at a cost.
Who can afford that heavy cost ? I doubt new or returning players.......

So, all it will do is make the GAP even wider and discourage even more new or returning players who will see their chance to "catch up" even more a Mission Impossible thus being detrimental to Ultima Online (loss of subscriptions).

Now lastly... IT'S TEMPORARY. Guess what that means? You're gonna have to do it again, and again, and again, and again.

And who can go over this over and over if not those who have the wealth ?
Again, shows how the GAP widens, not closes...........

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

My assertion has always been that animal taming is not a hard skill to raise, just a time consuming one. The word I used was effort, I didn't say "blood, sweat and tears". However, training the skill must take a bit more than equipping items or you wouldn't have chosen that option. You'd be at your chosen skill cap and we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Allowing for shopping time it takes no more than a day to grab an advanced char token, make your tamer and equip some items. He can then receive a stable full of pets.

Training the skill manually, even to GM level, takes more than a day. To 120 is considerably longer. It may be simple and straightforward but there is effort involved.

Skills aren't armour and weapons, they're the foundation for a character. Having the ability to progress in skill lets a character take on bigger foes and explore the game. So a new player shouldn't be at a disadvantage in his skill gain rate because of his bank balance. Skill gain is necessary for him to advance. Good items are nice, but he's not going to get a taste of the game until his skills enable him to survive. If he takes the time to train a skill he should be at an advantage over the player who simply whipped out his credit card and bought some shiny jewels. Advanced tokens are bad enough, skill items on top make training the daft thing to do. Why waste your time chasing a bull around when that ring enables you to go out and play with peerless?

Wenchy

Ok, you have stated your opinion on what is effort, I have stated I do not agree period and have offered mine. I suggest we just leave it as irreconcilable differences and move on.

You view skill considerably different than I do. I view my characters as a collection of skills.

You seeming view your character as a Primary Skill (group).

I have a peace tamer and a stealth tamer.

IF I am dumb enough to not have my Skill+ items with me on death, then I look and say "Ok, in such a scenario which skills do I want to be able to rely on". The goal of course is to retrieve the items from my corpse and attempt to regain control of the situation or to make a viable retreat/egress from the situation.

For my Stealth tamer, there is zero doubt, those skills are in Hiding, Stealth, Magery, Focus+Meditation. Taming, Lore and Veterinary are NOT on the top of the list.

For my Peace Tamer, this is zero doubt, those skills are Musicianship, Peacemaking, Magery and Meditation. Taming, Lore and Veterinary are NOT on the top of the list.

From my ViewPoint, Taming, Lore and Veterinary are functional skills that are only applicable when I have a Pet AND the acquisition of a Pet. Other than that they pretty much useless. Now then when every thing is going according to plan, that is the dominant skill set used in my game play. When things are NOT going according to plan, they are fundamentally useless. I would think this should be more or less obvious. I mean I am using the skills and something happens that removes my ability to control the situation USING THOSE SKILLS.

So no, I see the move to "Oh, your not a real .... what ever" or "Give those REAL people that made a REAL effort a reward" as being pointless and achieving exactly nothing.

If the UO Team chose that path, then I and others would simply change the distribution of the skills to maximize the new rules. Becoming stronger NOT WEAKER.

 

[Konge]

I'm going to reply to your post in order of my points popps

1. It's still temporary, meaning you'll keep having to buy it, see point on SA. Again, just because a new player can't get it the moment he leaves new haven, doesn't mean theres anything wrong with it

1B I said earlier not to mention tamers, because pets are already powerful. They still sacrifice something, my point still stands. Most sac vet. now the ability to relog and get your pet before dieing isn't the issue so leave it out of this, if you want to nerf that, start a new thread complaing about it as it's not completely relevant to +skill jewels.

2. You keep saying where it most hurts, the only skills i know of that hurt to 120 are, taming (which you can get there with minimal but time consuming effort through GGS) Crafting skills (which can't even be +skilled), Magery (the issue with this is the price of the PS over anything really). I can't really think of anything else that's really hard to hit 120, maybe ninjitsu but i've never done it, same with Spell weaving which, again, is not apart of the issue as spell weaving can't be +skilled right now.

3. I could see your point if you said this... I don't know... 5 years ago? You really think they would have left this for 5+ years?

4. It was mentioned in the SA (client) thread on Uhall. Do you really think UO is going to get this amazingly huge number of subscriptions? Besides, the price of things are effected by the inflated economy, not +skill jewels. You want things to be lower in price? Make a gold sink thread. and know, I'm not obscenely rich. My bank balance is 200-400k on all my chars, and I don't have a problem with it. If I need something, I go to doom, get some arties and sell 'em. Otherwise I'm fine with having less than a mil in my bank box. Oh, and to get my current suit, I didn't play 24/7. I did it over years, of doing work, the exact same kind of work I did to 120 my skills. Why can't anyone else do that? Are you saying you're too lasy to go into farming and selling artifacts and the like? Doing peerlesses? Doing spawns and selling the 120 scrolls? Because if you don't, I don't see what you use your 6x120 char unless you just run around fel smacking people, got killed by an 10skill pvp tamer and decided to destroy the template. If you want to nerf that template, say that, don't destroy any LEGIT templates. And yes, I don't think and pvp tamer template is legit but anyway, moving on.

5. My god man. Sure they can afford it? Did you not see the other part of it? You can imbule at 80% intensity, making things much cheaper, and guess what? You don't have to BUY the resources, you can get them yourself. It's called working for it, Considering your other arguments, i thought you'd love that. But I guess if you can't get it on a silver platter... And yes, I'm going to work my ass off to get the materials to imbule the items I need. Sounds like you just want everyone to get more money? or are you mad you don't have any? Again, this has to do with the economy, not +skill items.

I can't get you, you argue about how they're too easy to get. When I show you they're harder to get and implement... you WHINE ABOUT THEM BEING TOO HARD TO GET. Make up your mind and be consitant with your argument for Pete's sake!

 

[Wenchkin]

You view skill considerably different than I do. I view my characters as a collection of skills.

You seeming view your character as a Primary Skill (group).

It's kinda simple, you need skills to go out and obtain things like gold to buy items or simply to kill mobs. Equipment is optional as you go along, but a basic amount of training is generally necessary if you want to progress in game. So skill is IMO the backbone of a character. Without skill you're not going to solo a dark father.

From my ViewPoint, Taming, Lore and Veterinary are functional skills that are only applicable when I have a Pet AND the acquisition of a Pet. Other than that they pretty much useless. Now then when every thing is going according to plan, that is the dominant skill set used in my game play. When things are NOT going according to plan, they are fundamentally useless. I would think this should be more or less obvious. I mean I am using the skills and something happens that removes my ability to control the situation USING THOSE SKILLS.

So no, I see the move to "Oh, your not a real .... what ever" or "Give those REAL people that made a REAL effort a reward" as being pointless and achieving exactly nothing.

I don't think we need to think about which skils are most important to us. Regardless of how important each of your skills are, you are using them. You require those skill points in one form or another, however briefly. So the argument is perfectly valid. Now you can be dismissive all you like, I expected as much.

You use the items and get benefit from them, it stands to reason that you wouldn't want to go out and train again if you could successfully argue against it. After all, if UO was changed so real skill was stronger than item skill, you would be at a disadvantage until you trained up. Instead of your current situation where you can use skill items to gain the benefits from that skill and also to stretch the skill cap further than the 700 cap a new player is usually presented with.

Wenchy

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...
After all, if UO was changed so real skill was stronger than item skill, you would be at a disadvantage until you trained up....

So you are stateing that I am 100% correct that I will be stronger as a collection of skills in the end and NOTHING WILL HAVE CHANGED.

So, all your doing is advocating a sadistic change that does absolutely nothing to improve the game and under some scenarios makes things even worse than apparently they are for you now.

The Sadistic nature is the the insistence that for anything to be Real or of value one must, metaphorically bleed to death in order for that thing to be REAL and of VALUE.

There was no need for you to simplify this, it was blatant when you said that raising Taming was easy, just time consuming. Easy as in ok go TRY to get a GGS IF IT IS WORKING THAT DAY and EVENTUALLY YOU WILL BE A REAL TAMER.

I suspect that a .... group of MMORPGR's will look at that position and have ..... well even more direct words to describe your position than I am using.

As I said and tried to move away from you, we have nothing in common, we have no perception of playing the same UO. I honestly can not even begin to comprehend the (from my perspective and obviously not yours) the Hell you want UO to be.

As I said, we have each expressed our opinion and we do not even exist in the same dimension with each other.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Ghost... why would you add a bonus to SW? You can't modify SW skill... SW doesn't have a +skill bonus on anything right now.

Doesn't mean that won't change. Doesn't mean it will either. What I gave were simply examples of what could be done. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Gellor]

I'd have to agree with Connor's assessment of this whole skill jewelry "imbalance" issue: "I'm poor and don't want to spend any time to get better equipment so where is my silver spoon"

I'd call it a slight but MINOR issue. How about this very simple fix similar to what they did with tactics AND weapons: use REAL skill in most formulas? You know, a real 70,90 skill to do specials... last time I tried skill jewelry to work around this, I got smacked down by the server:loser:

All spells that use "magery, necro, eval, spirit speak, etc" use real value rather than adjusted value for calculations.

Taming is a slightly tricky issue so maybe make a taming bonus for real skill vs jewelry skill Stable slots?

But in all honesty, I worry more about what I am doing and less about what others do. I've made choices in how I do my characters.

And yes, I did make a tamer that has a nice set of jewelry because I was lazy. I figure making one pure tamer in my life was enough

Let me guess, the OP feels that everyone should have a 4/6 suit with 100lrc, 40lmc, 80 int increase, 28 mr, all 70s suit the minute you create a character. Heck, lets just make a "I won UO option" so 5 minutes into UO you can select it and be done with UO

 

[wanderer1origin]

that outlines 99 percent of posts he wants youngs to be pvp/pvm ready first week equal to a 10 yr player

I'd have to agree with Connor's assessment of this whole skill jewelry "imbalance" issue: "I'm poor and don't want to spend any time to get better equipment so where is my silver spoon"

I'd call it a slight but MINOR issue. How about this very simple fix similar to what they did with tactics AND weapons: use REAL skill in most formulas? You know, a real 70,90 skill to do specials... last time I tried skill jewelry to work around this, I got smacked down by the server:loser:

All spells that use "magery, necro, eval, spirit speak, etc" use real value rather than adjusted value for calculations.

Taming is a slightly tricky issue so maybe make a taming bonus for real skill vs jewelry skill Stable slots?

But in all honesty, I worry more about what I am doing and less about what others do. I've made choices in how I do my characters.

And yes, I did make a tamer that has a nice set of jewelry because I was lazy. I figure making one pure tamer in my life was enough

Let me guess, the OP feels that everyone should have a 4/6 suit with 100lrc, 40lmc, 80 int increase, 28 mr, all 70s suit the minute you create a character. Heck, lets just make a "I won UO option" so 5 minutes into UO you can select it and be done with UO

 

[Siteswap]

Hence my position that I would prefer the money spent on 3rd party suppliers be vectored to the UO Team and not the 3rd Party Suppliers. This should keep the Real Life Currency in the UO family and should manifest itself with a better product.

Thats a massive assumption and an extremely naive point of view.

Do you really think that whatever money UO makes gets pumped back into UO? UO has a budget set by EA. Whatever money EA makes from UO goes into the EA coffers and is most likely used for R&D for other products.

In short, UO's profits fund EA's other projects whilst UO continues to be run on a shoe-string budget.

 

[Wenchkin]

So you are stateing that I am 100% correct that I will be stronger as a collection of skills in the end and NOTHING WILL HAVE CHANGED.

What I said was what I posted, not what you decided to turn it into. Perhaps this discussion would be fruitful if you didn't keep re-writing posts and then arguing against your own re-constructed quotes. ..

So, all your doing is advocating a sadistic change that does absolutely nothing to improve the game and under some scenarios makes things even worse than apparently they are for you now.

The Sadistic nature is the the insistence that for anything to be Real or of value one must, metaphorically bleed to death in order for that thing to be REAL and of VALUE.

Did you even read what I posted?

All I said was that we needed a better skill gain system that rewarded players who made the effort more than those who bought it. I didn't say force Enigma into the bull fields for 12 hours a day lol. What I want is a system which is fun for everyone. You just want to keep the power you have, screw everyone else. You seem very bitter about the current training system, yet you don't care for anyone new to the game who has to go through that. You have your items and characters and that's all that matters. That's how you come across.

There was no need for you to simplify this, it was blatant when you said that raising Taming was easy, just time consuming. Easy as in ok go TRY to get a GGS IF IT IS WORKING THAT DAY and EVENTUALLY YOU WILL BE A REAL TAMER.

No, go train, get gains and eventually you have a trained skill. For someone who says I don't need to simplify things, you don't seem to be understanding what I'm posting because you keep making up quotes... If your GGS gains are broken, report a bug. No good shouting at me, I can't fix your tamer. Though I sure wish someone would so we all got some peace....

As I said and tried to move away from you, we have nothing in common, we have no perception of playing the same UO. I honestly can not even begin to comprehend the (from my perspective and obviously not yours) the Hell you want UO to be.

LMAO.

You use words like sadism and hell to describe training a skill in an MMO? You've had a very fortunate life if you genuinely believe that language applies here. I haven't played an MMO where you were exempt from training up a character, so apparently it's not as bad as you feel it is.

As I said, we have each expressed our opinion and we do not even exist in the same dimension with each other.

Well I can certainly agree with that

Wenchy

 

[hawkeye_pike]

To my opinion, the suggestion is very valid. Real skill should have a slight advantage over skill that is boosted with items.

However, even the best idea will always be controversely discussed, as there's always a minority of players who will be penalized by such a change. Those typically are players who have extremely specialized characters with lots of high-end items.

I personally think that one of the basic problems of UO is the exaggerated focus on items. Thus, I'd appreciate any change that reduces the importance of items.

The cap of 720 is important, because it makes overpowered templates impossible and it forces us to individualize.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...
However, even the best idea will always be controversely discussed, as there's always a minority of players who will be penalized by such a change....

This is probably more rhetorical than not as I am confident you have nothing to base the "minority of players" on, but just in case I am wrong, where are you getting the numbers from to make such an assertion?

Quite to the contrary, a statistically insignificant number of players will benefit from such an .... action and everyone else will be punished/penalized. Oh and yeah the insignificant number of players that benefit? Why of course they are the .... ones that REFUSE TO CHANGE AND HATE EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T THE ORIGINAL UO. That HATES TAMERS AND HATE ANYTHING THEY CAN'T BE SUPERIOR TO.

It would be very much the case of "WTF, UO just changed the rules, out of the blue and are requiring me to UNDO what I have done for years and REDO the characters, taking YEARS to bring back up to speed and HAVE NO CHANGE TO ITEMIZATION?"

NO ONE has demonstrated any REAL CHANGE in this thread. Just a SADISTIC DESIRE TO FORCE PEOPLE TO CHANGE THEIR TEMPLATES.

Now lets hear the pathetic scam of "Oh, all we want is to have AN ADVANTAGE OVER EVERYONE ELSE, BECAUSE OUR EFFORT IS REAL AND EVERYONE ELSE IS FAKE. WE ARE NOT FORCING ANYONE TO REMAIN INFERIOR".

Get a CLUE the time for this discussion was when they were considering implementing the Skill+ Items, NOT ALL THESE YEARS LATER. You had your say, YOU LOST. Now you want to turn everyone elses UO life into a HELL/NIGHTMARE.

 

[Lynk]

So, all your doing is advocating a sadistic change that does absolutely nothing to improve the game and under some scenarios makes things even worse than apparently they are for you now.

The Sadistic nature is the the insistence that for anything to be Real or of value one must, metaphorically bleed to death in order for that thing to be REAL and of VALUE.

WTF THIS MAKES NO SENSE - PROOF READ.


I'm GOING to reply to you WITH random words that are COMPLETELY CAPITALIZED to confuse you with MY whirlwind of TEETH, fingernails, and FLAWED LOGIC.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Maitreya, I don't know why you seem so angry. I have a tamer, too, who has 93 skill and can control a Greater Dragon only with a ring and a bracelet. It would affect me, too. I think there may be something wrong with your gameplay if such a change would turn your gameplay into a nightmare. Sounds a bit too polemic...

You seem to misunderstand me. My statement is, UO has become an item-based game. Which is bad, bad, bad!

This is probably more rhetorical than not as I am confident you have nothing to base the "minority of players" on, but just in case I am wrong, where are you getting the numbers from to make such an assertion?

Quite to the contrary, a statistically insignificant number of players will benefit from such an .... action and everyone else will be punished/penalized. Oh and yeah the insignificant number of players that benefit? Why of course they are the .... ones that REFUSE TO CHANGE AND HATE EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T THE ORIGINAL UO. That HATES TAMERS AND HATE ANYTHING THEY CAN'T BE SUPERIOR TO.

It would be very much the case of "WTF, UO just changed the rules, out of the blue and are requiring me to UNDO what I have done for years and REDO the characters, taking YEARS to bring back up to speed and HAVE NO CHANGE TO ITEMIZATION?"

NO ONE has demonstrated any REAL CHANGE in this thread. Just a SADISTIC DESIRE TO FORCE PEOPLE TO CHANGE THEIR TEMPLATES.

Now lets hear the pathetic scam of "Oh, all we want is to have AN ADVANTAGE OVER EVERYONE ELSE, BECAUSE OUR EFFORT IS REAL AND EVERYONE ELSE IS FAKE. WE ARE NOT FORCING ANYONE TO REMAIN INFERIOR".

Get a CLUE the time for this discussion was when they were considering implementing the Skill+ Items, NOT ALL THESE YEARS LATER. You had your say, YOU LOST. Now you want to turn everyone elses UO life into a HELL/NIGHTMARE.

 

[Coppelia]

I started my templates with 7x GM skills (the maximum, 100%), +20 bonus for fun like camping, tracking, whatever.
Powerscrolls told me : now if you want the maximum of your skills, you need to remove one. Huh what? Who designed that? 120%, what does it mean?

I had access to end-game content with 7 skills. Nowadays I tried to peace a greater dragon with 115 music, 110 peace and a slayer instrument (see I'm making an effort with powerscrolls). I didn't get difficulties to peace it. It didn't work at all. I got a message : "you have lolskills, remove one to continue to play where you were playing before".

Ultima Online is the one and only game that tells you to sacrify a part of your gamestyle in order to access to the new content. They don't stop adding new skills and yet to increase the number of character slots they are very anal retentive. It's been unblocked a bit recently on that side so I hope they'll continue on their way and give :
- Total skill points of 7x120 = 840, or re-cap skills to 100 but that wouldn't be nice for Feluccans.
- Removal of skill bonus properties.

That way when they add content, like in all ther other games, I could push my skills/level/class a bit further to reach that content. Without having to do frustrating choices. For example, I have :

Animal Taming
Animal Lore
Veterinary
Peacemaking
Musicianship
Magery
Herding

Basically they're saying : "Sorry herding is fun for you but if you want your skills to be useful, you have to remove it". Errr... I can do with 100 Magery, I don't fail too much there. I can leave Veterinary at 100, it allows me to rez my pet and heal nicely. But to get my stable slots and be able to control high-end creatures, I need both Taming and Lore... And for peacemaking to be useful, every new big mob requires 120 peace and 120 music + slayer.


Well I'm sorry to say, I'd like to get rid of skill bonus, but then they should stop restrictions. 6x120 skills? I refuse. It's already tight enough, if you don't have several accounts you can't get out of the standard copycat templates.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Maitreya, I don't know why you seem so angry....
You seem to misunderstand me. My statement is, UO has become an item-based game. Which is bad, bad, bad!

Good tactic to try to make it about me, sorry but you need to choose a different tactic.

Me misunderstand you? Hardly I nailed your reply to the wall.

Expressing an opinion "UO has become an item-based game. Which is bad, bad, bad!", is your judgment of the current state of affairs for UO. The fact that I agree has NOTHING to do with this thread.

The point is that you don't pull the rug out from all the people that have chosen to PLAY THE GAME AS IS, in favor of a statistically insignificant number of Luddites (in this context people that want to stick their head in the ground and play/pine for a historic version of UO).

This debate was had and a decision was made, this is not a decision of Oh should we have Monster x Drop 100gp or 150gp's.

This is a systemic decision that affects everyone

 

[Coppelia]

Oh just another idea passing by:
Rather than 840 skill points, points above 100 could be "free", not removed from 700-720 total skill points. Then you could have 7x120 skills but not 8x GM skills + 40.

 

[popps]

Expressing an opinion "UO has become an item-based game. Which is bad, bad, bad!", is your judgment of the current state of affairs for UO. The fact that I agree has NOTHING to do with this thread.

Well, the way I see it, is that if Ultima Online has become too much an item based game and this is not good (and I do think as others do that it is not good....) well, then the chance of giving MORE VALUE to real skill versus +skill items is a chance not to loose !!!

The developers have the opportunity to make adjustments to this and give bonuses to real skill what it deserves to receive and thus reduce dependance of Ultima Online from items......

Why not grab this chance ?

 

[Konge]

Well, the way I see it, is that if Ultima Online has become too much an item based game and this is not good (and I do think as others do that it is not good....) well, then the chance of giving MORE VALUE to real skill versus +skill items is a chance not to loose !!!

The developers have the opportunity to make adjustments to this and give bonuses to real skill what it deserves to receive and thus reduce dependance of Ultima Online from items......

Why not grab this chance ?

The exact same reason why the never grab the chance, and nice not replying to my reply of yours...reply. A nice little bonus of real skill vs modified skill would be nice, but no nerfing modified skill, and I'm not going to say why for the billionth time. Now, if you want to lower the amount of impact items have, we could always have the skills power boosted to a point skilled are much more powerful than items (No popps, not saying remove skill bonuses so put your reply away now). They tried that with making armslore armor related... but it was whined about, and personally a bad approach as it would make templates tighter

 

[Gellor]

Why not grab this chance ?

Perhaps because NOBODY in this post has given a reason +skill is overbalanced.

The only reason I've seen presented is "whoa is me, I can't afford item X". Maybe spend less time complaining about being broke and more time trying to earn items/money? With the 15 minutes you spent on each post you could have been in doom for a round of bosses and maybe gotten an orni

In anything but PvP, how does another player's template OR gear effect YOUR game play? The FACT of the matter is a player's template or gear in anything but PvP has no effect on YOUR game play.

And in PvP, you will very rarely see people running with 100+ in skill items. And do you know why? Because there are other mods that are more important than skill in PvP. DCI, HCI, LRC, LMC, Mana regen, etc are always more desired than skill.

So again as many have asked, aside from the "pity me I'm poor" excuse, what is the huge game breaking issue with +skill items? +skill items are available to everyone whether they are artifacts or very lucky monster loot.

 

[Konge]

Perhaps because NOBODY in this post has given a reason +skill is overbalanced.

The only reason I've seen presented is "whoa is me, I can't afford item X". Maybe spend less time complaining about being broke and more time trying to earn items/money? With the 15 minutes you spent on each post you could have been in doom for a round of bosses and maybe gotten an orni

In anything but PvP, how does another player's template OR gear effect YOUR game play? The FACT of the matter is a player's template or gear in anything but PvP has no effect on YOUR game play.

And in PvP, you will very rarely see people running with 100+ in skill items. And do you know why? Because there are other mods that are more important than skill in PvP. DCI, HCI, LRC, LMC, Mana regen, etc are always more desired than skill.

So again as many have asked, aside from the "pity me I'm poor" excuse, what is the huge game breaking issue with +skill items? +skill items are available to everyone whether they are artifacts or very lucky monster loot.

That's what I've been saying the whole time.... QFT.

 

[popps]

Perhaps because NOBODY in this post has given a reason

I think there can be several reasons why a skill based game is overall better than an item based game.

First of all, when skill weights more than items, as I see it, luck, wealth and other issues have much less a factor than player's individual ability.

For example, let's imagine, for the sake of the discussion, that we have 2 players, A and B.

Player A is a much better PvPer but has much less time at hand to play.

That is, less time to make wealth or look for cool items.

Player B, on the other side, is a less skilled PvPer but has ton of time to play and so to make wealth and find high end items.

If skill was more important, player A could still be able to show one's own better ability.

Unfortunately, having less time to play, with less wealth and less time to find high end items in an item based game player B will be able to sport better modifiers and, therefore, win fights even if being less skilled in PvP.

Some more reason ?

LAG.

An item based game gets players to hoard items and the game engine to have to continuously make elaborated computations to put in all of the modifiers and variables.

More reasons ?

An item based game may, at least in theory, increase greed in the game for those high end items which can make or break a fight...... Of course, should this happen, with all of the detrimental consequences for the game.

Some more ?

An heavily item based game can be depressing to new players who might be overwhelmed by the huge number of variables and combinations possible and who may choose to go play something else not wanting to get headaches from having to compute all of the possible combinations. Loss of subscriptions.

Not to mention the disadvantage for such new players to catch up......

Bottom line is, at least to my opinion, that an item based game is much worse than a skill based game.

Infact, I do remember with nostalgia when Ultima Online was more heavily dependant on skills, rather than items and I do wish that the Developers did something to reduce how Ultima Online depends so much on items nowadays to make skills, real skills, more relevant.......

 

[Gellor]

Popps... way to skirt the issue being addressed. Classic sign of "I can't address what is being asked so I'll go off on a tangent and hope nobody calls me on it" tactic.

Your original post is about "+skill items are so over balancing"... and now you are posting about the evils of item based games.

Maybe instead of partially quoting the statement that was made, maybe you can address the statement that I made in its entirety. In case you missed it, I'll do a proper job of FULLY quoting the question:
Perhaps because NOBODY in this post has given a reason +skill is overbalanced.

 

[The Craftsman]

Why am I not surprised? Those shouting the loudest about the merits of +skill jewellry are those who rely on it the most as they are too lazy to train it up themselves.

Solution:

Increase the skill point limit to 840 which means that it is possible to max 7 skills, just like it was with 700 skill points at GM, as the game originally intended. However ... make that a hard cap which jewels cannot take you past. This way those with +skill jewellry will not lose their crutch and those without it will be able to train it up to the equvilent the old fashioned way.

 

[Gellor]

Why am I not surprised? Those shouting the loudest about the merits of +skill jewellry are those who rely on it the most as they are too lazy to train it up themselves.

ROFL... okay... none of my normal played chars rely upon it but if that logic makes you feel better, keep thinking it I have one PvP tamer that I've never used that has +26 taming on his jewelry.

I haven't shouted for or against the merits of +skill items. I've posted against the LAME excuse of "I can't afford it" that is being offered up against +skill items.

I posted bold and large for emphasis because the guy who tried to quote me did a partial quote and then went off on a tangent discussion

It was a point blank statement that you and other who are "anti +skill item" can't and won't present ANY reason beyond "I can't afford those items too" therefore they must be done away with.

So I'll ask you specifically... what huge game breaking issue is caused by +skill items? Does that PvMer who has +100 in skill items effect YOUR game play? Can YOU name more than one PvPer on a shard that relies upon more than +30 or so in skill items that IS successful (and NOT a tamer)?

So far as I've bolded, the only excuse is "waaa... I'm poor". Present to me a reason beyond that so I will re-evaluate my opinion.

 

[The Craftsman]

I haven't shouted for or against the merits of +skill items.

In that case youre not one of the people I was referring to. I didnt read your post past the above quote as it just looked boring.

 

[popps]

Maybe instead of partially quoting the statement that was made, maybe you can address the statement that I made in its entirety.

Let's see, how about a PvP Mage who can use :

- Magery 120
- Meditation 120
- Evaluate Intelligence 120
- Necromancy 120
- Resisting Spells 120
- Inscription 100
- Alchemy 100

Total points 800 of which 720 are for real but 80 come from +skill items.
Basically, this allows the template to ALSO use GM alchemy with all of the usefullness of potions. Or, if preferred Alchemy could be swapped with 120 Spellweaving which, at circle 6, can give quite a boost... Another option is also 100 Poisoning.......
Yes, there is room for the suit to carry 100% LRC........

And, even though the Dread Mares issue has been dismissed, well, they DO are quite a help in PvP........

 

[guum]

Why is this thread still going?

 

[Gellor]

popps... the template you mention is used in PvP less than a tamer. Why? Because 80 skill points on items takes away from other critical mods BEYOND LRC. A mage template needs LMC, MR, DCI, stat increase, all 70s, etc. Those stats plus skill points results in a very expensive suit. But everyone who spends some time playing the game instead of complaining about it can get those kind of +skill items. Especially when you add in faction items. So such a template and items would be attainable by everyone with a little work.

Without the additional mods I've listed, that template you've listed will get wiped out by a plain template that has the mods over skills. But this is another topic/

Plus, the number of people playing a mage is PvP is getting smaller and smaller. Again, another topic.

As others have mentioned, pets in PvP is not an item issue and more of a dev brain fart dealing with damage that would take two lines of code fix:
if player is damaged then
damage is halved (or pick an amount to reduce)

But as mentioned earlier, pets in PvP is a completely unrelated topic to +skill items and can be fixed as simple and painless as the above two lines.

Most of the people who I've seen posting in this topic against +skill are not people I recognize in the PvP community... nor are most of the people I've seen arguing for +skill.

Again, I'm not arguing for or against +skill or items in general. But when the only argument against +skill or items is "I can't afford it", the argument goes out the door and is not valid because there are lots of ways to earn money for items.

For example, 15 minutes and you have one go through in Doom with a good chance of getting an arti or more an hour. On Pac, it appears a lot of arties are going for the 2-6M range *eek* You spend 1 hour a day for a week and you have a good chance of having 10-30M sitting in your bank... barring horrid roles of Breath of the Dead This is a non-PvP environment.

Heck, farm 10k silver and get 1M gold. Mostly not PvP if you pick good spots

Or try your luck with power scrolls and pinkies. I know a guy paying 1M per 0.1 of taming. WOW. I personally haven't gotten a taming pinkie but you have the chance. 1M minimum for a tram champ spawn and 6M for a fel champ spawn... WOW

As for why this topic is beyond a beaten horse topic... I don't want the devs to get it in their head that 5 people on stratics that don't want to earn gold represent most of the people in UO.

 

[Konge]

popps... the template you mention is used in PvP less than a tamer. Why? Because 80 skill points on items takes away from other critical mods BEYOND LRC. A mage template needs LMC, MR, DCI, stat increase, all 70s, etc. Those stats plus skill points results in a very expensive suit. But everyone who spends some time playing the game instead of complaining about it can get those kind of +skill items. Especially when you add in faction items. So such a template and items would be attainable by everyone with a little work.

Without the additional mods I've listed, that template you've listed will get wiped out by a plain template that has the mods over skills. But this is another topic/

Plus, the number of people playing a mage is PvP is getting smaller and smaller. Again, another topic.

As others have mentioned, pets in PvP is not an item issue and more of a dev brain fart dealing with damage that would take two lines of code fix:
if player is damaged then
damage is halved (or pick an amount to reduce)

But as mentioned earlier, pets in PvP is a completely unrelated topic to +skill items and can be fixed as simple and painless as the above two lines.

Most of the people who I've seen posting in this topic against +skill are not people I recognize in the PvP community... nor are most of the people I've seen arguing for +skill.

Again, I'm not arguing for or against +skill or items in general. But when the only argument against +skill or items is "I can't afford it", the argument goes out the door and is not valid because there are lots of ways to earn money for items.

For example, 15 minutes and you have one go through in Doom with a good chance of getting an arti or more an hour. On Pac, it appears a lot of arties are going for the 2-6M range *eek* You spend 1 hour a day for a week and you have a good chance of having 10-30M sitting in your bank... barring horrid roles of Breath of the Dead This is a non-PvP environment.

Heck, farm 10k silver and get 1M gold. Mostly not PvP if you pick good spots

Or try your luck with power scrolls and pinkies. I know a guy paying 1M per 0.1 of taming. WOW. I personally haven't gotten a taming pinkie but you have the chance. 1M minimum for a tram champ spawn and 6M for a fel champ spawn... WOW

As for why this topic is beyond a beaten horse topic... I don't want the devs to get it in their head that 5 people on stratics that don't want to earn gold represent most of the people in UO.

You might as well stop now... I said the same things you're saying since the thread began, and when he has nothing to say, he just ignores my posts and restarts the argument I already proved false with someone else. I agree with you 100% because I've already said all this in this thread. >.<. Infact, popps has yet to comment on my response to him...

 

[hawkeye_pike]

spend less time complaining about being broke and more time trying to earn items/money?

I'd rather see people spend more time on adventure, community and fun, instead of spending most of their online time on earning items and money.