REAL skill should offer a much better bonus than "beefed up" skill level.....

[Farsight]

Let's see, how about a PvP Mage who can use :

- Magery 120
- Meditation 120
- Evaluate Intelligence 120
- Necromancy 120
- Resisting Spells 120
- Inscription 100
- Alchemy 100

Total points 800 of which 720 are for real but 80 come from +skill items.
Basically, this allows the template to ALSO use GM alchemy with all of the usefullness of potions. Or, if preferred Alchemy could be swapped with 120 Spellweaving which, at circle 6, can give quite a boost... Another option is also 100 Poisoning.......
Yes, there is room for the suit to carry 100% LRC........

And, even though the Dread Mares issue has been dismissed, well, they DO are quite a help in PvP........

You don't actually play this game, do you? You certainly have never PvPed.

Here's the next portion to your challenge in convincing even one person that you're right:

Find me a suit that has 40% LMC, 100% LRC, more than 45% DCI (exactly 45% isn't enough), 15% SDI, FC 2, FCR 6, MR 8 or more, 70 physical and cold resist, 80 fire and poison resist and 75 energy resist AS WELL AS 80 extra skill points.

You get big bonus points for actually producing this suit in game (take a screen shot of each piece on your paperdoll).

Either that or find a better example.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Sorry, but pumping up taming skills with items DOES give extra stable slots.
Infact, one can pump up points with items, stable pets and then take off items and still keep pets in the stables........




Thanks but no. I htink that having put effort and time into training up skills when it most hurts, past the 90-100 level and up to 120 should give sound and significative bonuses not merely eye candy.......





I am not saying they should be made worthless, but neither better as they are now (more succesfull, powerfull, victorious) than those 6 x 120 REAL skill which should instead be those prized......

Just a correction, real skill is needed for the additional stable slots. Tested on 3 chars to be absolutely sure and all had the exact same outcome. I can get the 5 Stable slots but not the additional slots that come at 100/110/120 for each of the taming skills (Taming, lore and vet) even with gear that bumped me up to 120 Taming and 120 Lore I could not stable more than 5 pets. So, yes Taming, Lore and Vet already have the added bonus for real skill. Maybe the 2 chars on my account and the 1 on my wifes account were bugged, so you could still be correct but it doesn't seem likely.

Without Real skill I get 5 slots.

With Real Skill I get 14.

Bit of a bonus to real skill if you ask me.

 

[Gellor]

I'd rather see people spend more time on adventure, community and fun, instead of spending most of their online time on earning items and money.

I'd second/third that... but some people(such as the OP) seem to feel you can't play UO unless you have the top skill, top stats, and top items.

The game is playable without having 120 in all skills, eating a 25 stat scroll, or having the perfect suit. Your gameplay is unaffected by whether another player has such a suit except in some of the extreme cases of PvP.

Farsight, thank you for backing up my point. Although with faction arties, such a suit is possible, the non-faction parts are gonna be VERY expensive(10s if not 100s of millions each). And a mage running around without some sort of melee defense is a dead mage

 

[Lady_Calina]

Without Real skill I get 5 slots.

With Real Skill I get 14.

Bit of a bonus to real skill if you ask me.

My tamer has 91 Real Skill and has 6 hell cats, 2 cu's, a beetle, a nightmare and a greater dragon in the stables. If I take off all my stuff, I'm not able to use all the slots, but so long as I keep my stuff on, I'm good to go.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

My tamer has 91 Real Skill and has 6 hell cats, 2 cu's, a beetle, a nightmare and a greater dragon in the stables. If I take off all my stuff, I'm not able to use all the slots, but so long as I keep my stuff on, I'm good to go.

Looks like mines just bugged then. 240 skill gives me 5 slots. But I can't get the extra stable slots without real skill for some reason.

Whats your Lore, Vet and Taming at? Real skill wise.

Asking because bumping Taming and Lore up to 120 with items still only gave me 5 slots . I'll check again, would suck if it turned out to be a bug on my end lol.

Edited to Add: Never liked egg on my face but can't be helped some times lol. I was hitting the wrong macro to equip items. Had the icons mixed up on the new tamers . So instead of Mark of Travesty, taming jewlry and Bird slayer talisman I was equipping Mage + items lol. Manually put them on this time and it worked so looks like I don't have to take there skill all the way up, free's up some skill points WOot lol.

 

[UOKaiser]

I'd rather see people spend more time on adventure, community and fun, instead of spending most of their online time on earning items and money.

But many people idea of fun is exactly that earning items and gold as well as collecting. So they get to have fun in that way. Everyone idea of fun is different. Hell bank sitters consider what they do is fun and enjoying themselves so to each there own.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

But many people idea of fun is exactly that earning items and gold as well as collecting. So they get to have fun in that way.

I understand that. And I don't criticize it.
However, UO is a community game, and it prospers most when people don't play it like a single-player game.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

I understand that. And I don't criticize it.
However, UO is a community game, and it prospers most when people don't play it like a single-player game.

People play how they want regardless. If they simply aren't allowed to play the way they enjoy playing they tend to move on. It would prosper any MMO if players didn't play it like a single player game. However it prospers no MMO when there is an attempt to force people to play in a way they do not enjoy.

 

[UOKaiser]

I understand that. And I don't criticize it.
However, UO is a community game, and it prospers most when people don't play it like a single-player game.

It's both. original ultima games where single players and when they establish UO many of these ultima fans were used to playing it single player.

Pretty much how I see the game is am the main hero and everyone else is to help me on my journey so I will interact with them join comunities, fight with them and many other activities but I am my characters so I am in pursue of something glory.challenge,fortune. But if I died and never returned to the world of ultima it will still go on with other heroes or villans making there mark interacting or not interacting.
Basicaly all am saying its both and I enjoy the flexibility of having my own story and not be forced all the time to share someone else story. Both and combination of both single and multiplayer is a wonderful concept and has worked for all these years in ultima. Reason I hate WOW too many limitations on what I would like to do with my story.
Though I completly understand what you mean.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...
Reason I hate WOW too many limitations on what I would like to do with my story.
Though I completly understand what you mean.

I agree, the main reason I left EverQuest was the emphasis on being Raid Centric and Group Requirement.

My model has always been, as a metaphor, the Mountain Man / Back Woodsman of the late 1700+. In short a Loner. But I do interact with the community and groups.

 

[Lady_Calina]

Looks like mines just bugged then. 240 skill gives me 5 slots. But I can't get the extra stable slots without real skill for some reason.

Whats your Lore, Vet and Taming at? Real skill wise.

Asking because bumping Taming and Lore up to 120 with items still only gave me 5 slots . I'll check again, would suck if it turned out to be a bug on my end lol.

Edited to Add: Never liked egg on my face but can't be helped some times lol. I was hitting the wrong macro to equip items. Had the icons mixed up on the new tamers . So instead of Mark of Travesty, taming jewlry and Bird slayer talisman I was equipping Mage + items lol. Manually put them on this time and it worked so looks like I don't have to take there skill all the way up, free's up some skill points WOot lol.

I have about 95 or so Lore, 91 Taming and 120 Vet.

 

[popps]

People play how they want regardless. If they simply aren't allowed to play the way they enjoy playing they tend to move on. It would prosper any MMO if players didn't play it like a single player game. However it prospers no MMO when there is an attempt to force people to play in a way they do not enjoy.

I would just prefer, personally, as I think it would make for a better game, at least for my tastes, that Ultima Online was a game where buying or selling anything game related for real money was not allowed among players.

 

[Serafi]

I understand that. And I don't criticize it.
However, UO is a community game, and it prospers most when people don't play it like a single-player game.

I sorta agree, and don`t agree on this one. The selling point of UO I think is the flexibility, diversity and the amount of player choices. Other games tend to force you to play in groups, to raid, to join a pug to go to places. In UO you are free to do what you want, whenever you want. Be it single-player or multi-player.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Let's see, how about a PvP Mage who can use :

- Magery 120
- Meditation 120
- Evaluate Intelligence 120
- Necromancy 120
- Resisting Spells 120
- Inscription 100
- Alchemy 100

Total points 800 of which 720 are for real but 80 come from +skill items.
Basically, this allows the template to ALSO use GM alchemy with all of the usefullness of potions. Or, if preferred Alchemy could be swapped with 120 Spellweaving which, at circle 6, can give quite a boost... Another option is also 100 Poisoning.......
Yes, there is room for the suit to carry 100% LRC........

And, even though the Dread Mares issue has been dismissed, well, they DO are quite a help in PvP........

You don't actually play this game, do you? You certainly have never PvPed.

Here's the next portion to your challenge in convincing even one person that you're right:

Find me a suit that has 40% LMC, 100% LRC, more than 45% DCI (exactly 45% isn't enough), 15% SDI, FC 2, FCR 6, MR 8 or more, 70 physical and cold resist, 80 fire and poison resist and 75 energy resist AS WELL AS 80 extra skill points.

You get big bonus points for actually producing this suit in game (take a screen shot of each piece on your paperdoll).

Either that or find a better example.

Well said lol.

Unfortunately Popps has proven time and again that he has no clue when pvp is concerned. No crime ofc to be clueless about pvp but it is odd in this case because if you go back to his original posts in this very thread he quite clearly references combat vs other players when he whines about skill items.

*shakes head*

 

[Fizzleton]

only purpose for skill items in pvp are the following (to my knowledge):

- crystal. ring for compensating -20 mage sc weaps
- hunters for archers (while rarely seen any more; most have mace & shield or spirit of the totem at least)
- bloodwood spirit (+5 necro/ +10 ss), very rarely (totem of void preferred)
- some bump for skills on jewels that are taken for other mods but offer an additional +10-15 tacs/ana/chiv or whatsoever

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I sorta agree, and don`t agree on this one. The selling point of UO I think is the flexibility, diversity and the amount of player choices. Other games tend to force you to play in groups, to raid, to join a pug to go to places. In UO you are free to do what you want, whenever you want. Be it single-player or multi-player.

I don't want to force people to play in groups. I love choices. But currently, UO forces people to hunt for items. That's what I criticize.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

I sorta agree, and don`t agree on this one. The selling point of UO I think is the flexibility, diversity and the amount of player choices. Other games tend to force you to play in groups, to raid, to join a pug to go to places. In UO you are free to do what you want, whenever you want. Be it single-player or multi-player.

I don't want to force people to play in groups. I love choices. But currently, UO forces people to hunt for items. That's what I criticize.

Huh?

How is anyone absolutely forced to hunt for items?

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Why am I not surprised? Those shouting the loudest about the merits of +skill jewellry are those who rely on it the most as they are too lazy to train it up themselves.

Solution:

Increase the skill point limit to 840 which means that it is possible to max 7 skills, just like it was with 700 skill points at GM, as the game originally intended. However ... make that a hard cap which jewels cannot take you past. This way those with +skill jewellry will not lose their crutch and those without it will be able to train it up to the equvilent the old fashioned way.

1) As has been shown many times earlier in this thread nobody using jewels(for pvp at least and that is how this mess started)has been lazy in any way. The skill items being used by pvpers are only to go over the cap in such a manner as to create a more diverse template. Not to save time.
You really make yourself sound completely foolish if you attempt to say that pvpers are using skill items to save time or effort.
Banksitting Tamers on the other hand are an extremely lazy group in general and have always used skill items to avoid actual work.

2) Taking skill items out of the game will definitely punish new players more then vets. New players in general are the ones using the low-medium grade skill jewels on their Tamers for more slots and their Warriors to be able to hunt monsters sooner at higher levels.
The vets using the high end jewels to try and create a more powerful and diverse template will ofc also be punished just as unfairly. Skill items have been around forever and work as intended by the Devs.
Anyone that cant comprehend the fact that the cap has always been intended to be crossed with items is just plain slow and most likely has ridden the short bus IMO.

3) Their is nothing "old fashioned" about how almost all players train up skills these days. (Warriors using Golems being the silliest)so what exactly do you mean?
If you also meant to add that you believe that everybody should train the 'real' old fashioned way by hunting that has been discussed many times before in other threads and has nothing to do with skill jewels.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I sorta agree, and don`t agree on this one. The selling point of UO I think is the flexibility, diversity and the amount of player choices. Other games tend to force you to play in groups, to raid, to join a pug to go to places. In UO you are free to do what you want, whenever you want. Be it single-player or multi-player.

I don't want to force people to play in groups. I love choices. But currently, UO forces people to hunt for items. That's what I criticize.

Huh?

How is anyone absolutely forced to hunt for items?

They are forced to by the exact same method the Proposals in this thread, if enacted, would force people to change. And Hunt is obviously ambiguous as one can directly Hunt for something or Indirectly Hunt for the currency to procure something or abstractly Hunt for something in real life to turn into (indirectly or directly) currency to procure something.

Consider the original UO. Tank Mage (it really was just a term and no set in stone template .... Over Time), some change is made to how a spell works, an item works etc and you get a skill/stat shift to make the character the best the character can be. Power Hour enabled this to happen in hours to days depending. NOT FREAKING MONTHS TO YEARS IF EVER as GGS forces things to be.

In short no one is going to willingly be inferior (character wise NOT player wise) to some one else in a competitive scenario.

This is the FORCING people to do something. It has been in UO from the day it went live.

As I see it, Pikes point is to either some how reduce the dependency on items. My rebuttal to this is that nothing in this thread will reduce the dependency on items at all. It just forces a shift in how Templates are achieved. Ignoring the fact that the GGS system will prolong this shift if not make it impossible to achieve.

In addition, regardless of how one may want the Bad Old Days of UO/EQ/WoW etc there is nothing that suggest such a paradigm shift will achieve anything other than push people away. And when things stabilize then come the push for "Hey wait we suck so bad ...." and the cycle starts all over again.

 

[Gellor]

only purpose for skill items in pvp are the following (to my knowledge):

- crystal. ring for compensating -20 mage sc weaps
- hunters for archers (while rarely seen any more; most have mace & shield or spirit of the totem at least)
- bloodwood spirit (+5 necro/ +10 ss), very rarely (totem of void preferred)
- some bump for skills on jewels that are taken for other mods but offer an additional +10-15 tacs/ana/chiv or whatsoever

This is pretty much PvP "skill items" nailed on the head. The jewelry PvPers use/need/want have mods OTHER than skill. Your average and even above average PvPer jewelry will have MAYBE +30 skill on all items. 90%+ PvPers will have much less than +30.

With the above, you have effectively removed the only way a player's suit will effect you. Once you remove that player interation, what is the "huge game busting" issue that makes skill items evil?

There has been no answer aside from "whoa is me... I'm poor and can't afford to get that item"

As I see Popps has posted yet again in this thread... and as usual, he avoids the pointed question that is sort of hard to miss(large red sig and "HUGE" bolded text):loser: Hey Popps, wanna take a second and avoid the pity party answer and show me what the "huge game busting" issue is?

I don't want to force people to play in groups. I love choices. But currently, UO forces people to hunt for items. That's what I criticize.

While UO forces you to hunt items to a certain degree, UO does not force you to need the top 1% suit in order to play OR be successful OR have fun.

It is not that difficult to start a new server, get a basic suit/weapon/items, get 110 scrolls, train up(very few skills not easy), and be playable within a week.

To me, the OP is like the guy commuting in 1990 Honda civic who is raging against the guy commuting in a 2009 BMW M3.

 

[Coppelia]

As I see it, Pikes point is to either some how reduce the dependency on items. My rebuttal to this is that nothing in this thread will reduce the dependency on items at all. It just forces a shift in how Templates are achieved. Ignoring the fact that the GGS system will prolong this shift if not make it impossible to achieve.

In addition, regardless of how one may want the Bad Old Days of UO/EQ/WoW etc there is nothing that suggest such a paradigm shift will achieve anything other than push people away. And when things stabilize then come the push for "Hey wait we suck so bad ...." and the cycle starts all over again.

I must say that something has to be done for some skills before removing skill bonus. There are some skills that raise really wrong. I mean, compare raising Poisoning to Parrying. There's a whole world between them.

That said, if the skill gains were fixed and balanced, I'd like to see a system with 700-720 skill points where skill points above 120 don't count in the total. Then I wouldn't need skill bonus jewelery, I would move my rear and train the skills.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I must say that something has to be done for some skills before removing skill bonus. There are some skills that raise really wrong. I mean, compare raising Poisoning to Parrying. There's a whole world between them......

I am assuming your referring to how one Skills up, if so I agree that this is the first step that needs to be taken. This step should be taken regardless of any further action. I suppose the down side is it may reduce the need for Soul Stones.

While I have refrained from pointing this out, I think this is a good time to do so. How totally disingenuous it is for people to say that "Real Skill should be rewarded" while they stone skills on and off to tailor their characters, all the while saying there should be a reduction on the need for itemization and poor new player to UO, that either needs to buy the Soul Stones from the store (directly or indirectly) or be at a significant disadvantage to those .....

I more or less assume that one could cast two groups on that subject.

Those that think that for a Skill to go up, one must tame 10,000 Greater Dragons by Lead Taming them.

Those that think that for a SKill to go up, one must tame a Forest Ostard and be guaranteed a skill up no matter what level you are.

Both of the above are exaggerated for the purpose of defining the camps.

It is my opinion, that a defining characteristic of each camp would reflect the definition of the camp.

One camp thinks playing UO is all about Raising Skills and wants that experience to last for ever.

One camp thinks playing UO is all about doing everything they can (I am trying very hard to avoid the cliche, "To Play The Game", as it is way to ambiguous to be meaningful in terms of trying to understand the two camps).

In terms of relative size of the two camps, one might think that the current state of UO suggest that the "I do not want to be skilling up for ever" camp is the larger. The rational is that there were insufficient numbers of the other group to prevent the evolution of UO to were it is today.

If the above is true AND the ratio remains the same now as then, then to pine/wish for the Bad Old Days is just that. It is a case of the Minority attempting to impose their play style on the majority.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

I must say that something has to be done for some skills before removing skill bonus. There are some skills that raise really wrong. I mean, compare raising Poisoning to Parrying. There's a whole world between them.

That said, if the skill gains were fixed and balanced, I'd like to see a system with 700-720 skill points where skill points above 120 don't count in the total. Then I wouldn't need skill bonus jewelery, I would move my rear and train the skills.

Thanks to this thread I actually revised my template on my tamer . I am using the Mark of Travesty (+10 Lore, +10 Taming). Not doing it because I am lazy lol, just really wanted a bit of Magery and meditation. I lowered my Taming and Lore by 10 each taking them down to 110 and locked them.

Crystaline Ring + 20 mage
Bracelet + 15 Mage
Book +15 Mage
Legs +10 Med
Mark of Travesty +10 Lore, +10 Taming.

So now I am at.

120 Taming
120 Lore
100 Vet
120 Music
120 Peace
100 Magery
100 Meditation

So no, not even all tamers use the +Skill jewlry because there lazy. I actually would prefer not having to use the +Skill jewlry though. If I could have those 7 skills where they are at without +Skill items I would focus on an all 70's LRC suit, 40 LMC, SDI inc and 2/6. I actually have one I would really really like to use on this template, but thanks to the need for +Skill jewlry that isn't going to happen .

 

[LadyNico]

In my opinion, and it's just that, an opinion...I think effort should get a higher reward than doing nothing, or throwing gold around.

This.

Frankly, I could care less how much gold and/or real money folks have thrown at gimping their templates.

Heck, even if all +skill items decayed tomorrow, it's not as though we haven't all had sufficient time to benefit from those items many times beyond the gold expended on them.

You've got to kick away the crutch at some point.

Do it.

 

[popps]

2) Taking skill items out of the game will definitely punish new players more then vets.

Not if the +skill items are made to be used within the skill CAP and not to break it.......


New players need them to reach the skill CAP and "speed up" their reaching a level where they can play more succesfully.

It is older players who have access to wealth and rare multi-mods almost maxed out +skill items who can make use of them to break the CAP and be exceptionally powerfull as compared to new players or returning one........

 

[Lady_Calina]

It is older players who have access to wealth and rare multi-mods almost maxed out +skill items who can make use of them to break the CAP and be exceptionally powerfull as compared to new players or returning one........

There's nothing wrong with older players utilizing what they can. I could make the same argument that you've made about people with real skill deserving a reward for working so hard... Why shouldn't older players who have invested years of time and effort have to 'dumb' their characters down? Shouldn't they get to enjoy the rewards that come from their hard work?

 

[popps]

There's nothing wrong with older players utilizing what they can. I could make the same argument that you've made about people with real skill deserving a reward for working so hard... Why shouldn't older players who have invested years of time and effort have to 'dumb' their characters down? Shouldn't they get to enjoy the rewards that come from their hard work?

Hmmm....... why ?

Perhaps simply because, breaking a skill CAP, a hard skill limit, a skill wall, should NOT happen?

It makes no sense whatsoever to me to set a skill CAP at 720 points and then let it be punched through so easily.

To me, it is either of the 2, either the skill CAP is wrong, and then it should be raised for all players, OR +skill items were never intended to break the CAP and it was only overlooked until now because of a number of issues.......

Personally, I prefer option #2.

What makes Ultima Online interesting is that it is a "role" playing game.

That is, players need to MAKE A CHOICE and stick with it.

The skill CAP set to 720 points is enough points for a good number of skills to define a "role" but not too many to be able to do too much.

That's why I support the 720 skill CAP and would like to see +skill items be contained WITHIN it.........

I do not like to see tamers who are mages who are alchemists who are samurai who are ninja who are who knows what............

 

[Gellor]

It is older players who have access to wealth and rare multi-mods almost maxed out +skill items who can make use of them to break the CAP and be exceptionally powerfull as compared to new players or returning one........

And now we are back to the "whoa is me, I can't afford items so nobody should have them" reason:loser:

Again, in a PvM situation, how does anybody's skills, stats, equipment, etc effect YOUR game play?

For those of us not on the same plane of thinking, smoking, drinking or whatever you are on, please present to us a REAL example of an "exceptionally powerful" template AND items that utilizes +skill items and what you think makes it soooo exceptionally powerful? I have underlined the requirement: REAL template AND items.

Let me guess, you also believe in castles for everyone

Please popps, try to answer some directly asked questions. For example, you still have not answered:

1. What huge game breaking issue is caused by +skill items? (asked MULTIPLE TIMES with no answer from popps)
2. Does that PvMer who has +100 in skill items effect YOUR game play?

 

[Lady_Calina]

Hmmm....... why ?

Perhaps simply because, breaking a skill CAP, a hard skill limit, a skill wall, should NOT happen?

It makes no sense whatsoever to me to set a skill CAP at 720 points and then let it be punched through so easily.

To me, it is either of the 2, either the skill CAP is wrong, and then it should be raised for all players, OR +skill items were never intended to break the CAP and it was only overlooked until now because of a number of issues.......

Personally, I prefer option #2.

What makes Ultima Online interesting is that it is a "role" playing game.

That is, players need to MAKE A CHOICE and stick with it.

The skill CAP set to 720 points is enough points for a good number of skills to define a "role" but not too many to be able to do too much.

That's why I support the 720 skill CAP and would like to see +skill items be contained WITHIN it.........

I do not like to see tamers who are mages who are alchemists who are samurai who are ninja who are who knows what............

Obviously your definition of CAP is not the definition of CAP in UO. CAP in UO is the highest amount of skills able to be achieved naturally. If skill modded items were so imbalanced, then you wouldn't be able to exceed the CAP in any instance... but you can.

You may not like the templates, but that doesn't make them unfair or unbalanced.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Hmmm....... why ?

Perhaps simply because, breaking a skill CAP, a hard skill limit, a skill wall, should NOT happen?

It makes no sense whatsoever to me to set a skill CAP at 720 points and then let it be punched through so easily.

To me, it is either of the 2, either the skill CAP is wrong, and then it should be raised for all players, OR +skill items were never intended to break the CAP and it was only overlooked until now because of a number of issues.......

Personally, I prefer option #2.

What makes Ultima Online interesting is that it is a "role" playing game.

That is, players need to MAKE A CHOICE and stick with it.

The skill CAP set to 720 points is enough points for a good number of skills to define a "role" but not too many to be able to do too much.

That's why I support the 720 skill CAP and would like to see +skill items be contained WITHIN it.........

I do not like to see tamers who are mages who are alchemists who are samurai who are ninja who are who knows what............

Do you use Focus? Or do you skip it and use MR items to compensate? If you do use the MR items that is essentially the same thing as + skill items. How about resist spells? Are you advocating removal of Enchanted Apples, Cure pots, Trapped box's etc? Those essentially allow many to bypass the need for the skill. So Most melee/archers tend to bypass 2 full skills without using +skill items not only freeing up a great deal of skill points but gear slots as well. MR isn't exactly hard to come by.

See but then if you shouldn't be able to increase skills beyond the 720 points why should items take your spell damage beyond what you can naturally do? Why should you have extra hit chance and defence chance beyond what you would normally have? Why should you be able to deal dmg beyond what you can naturally do? Soft caps are far from rare in UO lol.

It is what it is. Items are a part of UO now. Wether people want it that way or not is irrelavent. The game itself would have to undergo many changes if things like this were removed as they would if the +skill items were removed. Everything that was added the game has been balanced against. Think of it like an Eco system, removing a species from that Eco system can destroy it.

So sure, I can see the desire to remove item dependence from UO. But thats not what you're after.

Personally I would be happy with something like a 840 cap so we can go back to using 7 skills without having to rely on +skill items. There's a reason the game started with 7 skills in the first place lol. 6 is just way to tight some times.

 

[Lady_Calina]

Let me guess, you also believe in castles for everyone

ZOMG of coarse!

 

[popps]

And now we are back to the "whoa is me, I can't afford items so nobody should have them" reason:loser:

I beg your pardon......

Do you know me ?
Do you know my character in game, what I may have or not in the game and for how long I have been playing ?

Why is it that I should have a personal agenda, necessarily, and not instead discuss an argument for the sake of the argument because, perhaps, I DO believe in its beneficial effects on the game ?

For those of us not on the same plane of thinking, smoking, drinking or whatever you are on, please present to us a REAL example of an "exceptionally powerful" template AND items that utilizes +skill items and what you think makes it soooo exceptionally powerful? I have underlined the requirement: REAL template AND items.

Unnecessary.

Why ?

Because the #1 reason that should be sufficient to bring to reason +skill items is simply the fact that they allow to BREAK a game rule : the 720 skill CAP.

Of course, besides that, there are other very good reasons which I already pointed out in various posts of the thread but that's irrelevant, the breaking of the skill CAP game rule should be a sufficient one enough to bring the +skill items back WITHIN that limit.....

 

[Coppelia]

Because the #1 reason that should be sufficient to bring to reason +skill items is simply the fact that they allow to BREAK a game rule : the 720 skill CAP.

The rule of the 720 cap is to cap real skill points, not bonus.
The rule of 100/120 cap by skill is to cap skill points, bonus or not, except for very few items.
If skill bonus shouldn't pass the 720 total points, then what about Jack of all trades? It explodes your would-be rule.

 

[Lady_Calina]

Because the #1 reason that should be sufficient to bring to reason +skill items is simply the fact that they allow to BREAK a game rule : the 720 skill CAP.

We've said it before: No rules are being broken. The 'cap' has been able to be surpassed for years. 'Cap' in this case simply means the highest you can attain naturally.

 

[popps]

Do you use Focus? Or do you skip it and use MR items to compensate? If you do use the MR items that is essentially the same thing as + skill items. How about resist spells? Are you advocating removal of Enchanted Apples, Cure pots, Trapped box's etc? Those essentially allow many to bypass the need for the skill. So Most melee/archers tend to bypass 2 full skills without using +skill items not only freeing up a great deal of skill points but gear slots as well. MR isn't exactly hard to come by.

Well, considering that Ultima Online started as a "Role" playing game yes, I think it is WRONG to allow anyone to be anything and do anything using work arounds that bypass skill limits.

Wrong, in the sense that it sends, at least to my opinion, the original Ultima Online to the dust, sadly.......

See but then if you shouldn't be able to increase skills beyond the 720 points why should items take your spell damage beyond what you can naturally do? Why should you have extra hit chance and defence chance beyond what you would normally have? Why should you be able to deal dmg beyond what you can naturally do? Soft caps are far from rare in UO lol.

Well, maybe for others it is all fine and dandy but to me, it looks "almost" as like cheating.
Using tricks and work around to get things done which, otherwise, could not be done given one's own skill, real skill.............

It is what it is. Items are a part of UO now. Wether people want it that way or not is irrelavent. The game itself would have to undergo many changes if things like this were removed as they would if the +skill items were removed. Everything that was added the game has been balanced against. Think of it like an Eco system, removing a species from that Eco system can destroy it.

Well, if Ultima Online was not like this, and yet it changed (for the worse, IMHO), why then could it not change again, perhaps a little at a time, to bring it a little closer back to the game it was ?

Why not ?

Change has to be only in one direction ? Not bi-directional ?

So sure, I can see the desire to remove item dependence from UO. But thats not what you're after.

LOL, if it was for me, I'd take all items away, artifacts and modifiers and would leave it to skills and crafted things, having wear and tear which means, breakable with use and you say I am not interested in reducing item dependancy in Ultima Online ???

Personally I would be happy with something like a 840 cap so we can go back to using 7 skills without having to rely on +skill items. There's a reason the game started with 7 skills in the first place lol. 6 is just way to tight some times.

This is reasonable talking and can find me in agreement BUT, with a but...

First of all, +skill items should ONLY work within the new set skill CAP, not beyond, and, second, there should be some incompatibility of skills in the same one template.

I joined a "role" playing game years back and I do not like seeing it nowadays that a template can be a bit of everything.

A Mage must be a Mage, a Tamer a tamer and so forth.

Sure, a tamer can have "some" magery and a Mage can have "some" taming but my point is, that I do not like a template be able to master several roles at the same one time.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...
Because the #1 reason that should be sufficient to bring to reason +skill items is simply the fact that they allow to BREAK a game rule : the 720 skill CAP.
...

Let me jump on this and add something others have not.


A 720 Skill Cap? What? I should be so lucky, my 16 month old accounts are caped at 705, so my peace tamer at 775 is seriously in Violation?

There is obviously not to exceed concept here as your using Cap, else why would there be the 705,710,715,720 levels?

 

[popps]

If skill bonus shouldn't pass the 720 total points, then what about Jack of all trades? It explodes your would-be rule.

Well, 20 points spread out really cannot have the same outcome as 120 points reached in various skills thanking to +skill items.....

Seems to me like apples and oranges.

 

[Lady_Calina]

A Mage must be a Mage, a Tamer a tamer and so forth.

Sure, a tamer can have "some" magery and a Mage can have "some" taming but my point is, that I do not like a template be able to master several roles at the same one time.

If you were once about roleplay and this is your current mindset, then your imagination has gone out the window.

I'll use one of my favorite fantasy books as an example.

Polgara mastered the ability to speak to animals, and during her travels mastered the ability to dance, and throughout the years she studied and practiced sorcery, eventually mastering it as well.

In a roleplay universe, I could be playing a character similar to Pol, who is hundreds of years old. So, if I want the ability to handle animals, that'd be Taming, Lore and Vet. Dancing? Lets say Music and any other Bard skill. Then sorcery, Mage, Eval and Med.

Sure, its not possible naturally, but if I'm able to do it with jewels then so be it! You could to!

Blaming skill mods are ruining roleplay is ludicrous.

 

[popps]

We've said it before: No rules are being broken. The 'cap' has been able to be surpassed for years.

Hmmm really ?

So under that same logic also duping is then legal ?

I mean, duping has been going on for almost as long as Ultima Online's life which is, MUCH longer than the breaking of the 720 skill CAP has been going on.......

I am sorry, but the fact that whatever the reason this was overlooked does not mean, at least to me, that +skill items are fine and dandy.......

They punch through the 720 set skill CAP and this should not have been and should not be, IMHO.

 

[Coppelia]

Well, 20 points spread out really cannot have the same outcome as 120 points reached in various skills thanking to +skill items.....

Seems to me like apples and oranges.

You arrange your rule on the fly?
Now the rule becomes "You shouldn't pass 720 skill points if that allows you to get more than 6 skills at 120". That sounds like a rule you just made up.

 

[Lady_Calina]

Hmmm really ?

So under that same logic also duping is then legal ?

I mean, duping has been going on for almost as long as Ultima Online's life which is, MUCH longer than the breaking of the 720 skill CAP has been going on.......

I am sorry, but the fact that whatever the reason this was overlooked does not mean, at least to me, that +skill items are fine and dandy.......

They punch through the 720 set skill CAP and this should not have been and should not be, IMHO.

Don't half-quote me because you're searching for a way to win the argument, I also stated: "'Cap' in this case simply means the highest you can attain naturally."

If EA had seen an issue with skill mod items surpassing the skill 'cap', then they could have easily deleted all skill mod items or adjusted it so the 'cap' couldn't be surpassed, as you want.

The bottom line is that its been years since the release of skill mod items, and there has not been an issue expressed by EA.

This isn't like duping, where a new way to do it comes out every second, this could be easily changed, but it hasn't been for a reason.

You need to stop being so argumentative when people are pointing out why it hasn't been changing, why its not illegal/rule-breaking and why its not imbalanced.

This is your opinion/wish, and that's fine, everyone has them... but that doesn't mean your opinion is right and that your wish should be granted.

 

[popps]

If you were once about roleplay and this is your current mindset, then your imagination has gone out the window.

I'll use one of my favorite fantasy books as an example.

Polgara mastered the ability to speak to animals, and during her travels mastered the ability to dance, and throughout the years she studied and practiced sorcery, eventually mastering it as well.

In a roleplay universe, I could be playing a character similar to Pol, who is hundreds of years old. So, if I want the ability to handle animals, that'd be Taming, Lore and Vet. Dancing? Lets say Music and any other Bard skill. Then sorcery, Mage, Eval and Med.

Sure, its not possible naturally, but if I'm able to do it with jewels then so be it! You could to!

Blaming skill mods are ruining roleplay is ludicrous.

One of the worst things that can happen in an online multiplayer game, IMHO, is to allow players to be everything.

Why ?

Because players tend to become self sufficient which means, not need others' services.

Now, in Ultima Online crafting has always had an important role.

Unfortunately, players have been allowed to have crafting mules.
Many players don't really play a crafter, they play fighters, hunters, but they do have crafters merely for their personal self sufficiency.

Well, allowing this CUTS the possibility to those players who really would want to play a crafter, a miner or whatever because mules make it so that much less players may need their services.

There is a whole lot of reasons why I think it much better in a role playing game that players picked a role and stayed with it.

Sure, they can change their mind, but this should mean GIVE UP the current role and develop another one instead.

My point is, can't have both at the same one time, only either one.

This is what would make the virtual comunity WAY more interesting IMHO, with each player specialized into a specific role and NEEDING others for lack of being able to be self sufficient in everything.

That's at least my vision of how a role playing game should be.

 

[popps]

This is your opinion/wish, and that's fine, everyone has them... but that doesn't mean your opinion is right and that your wish should be granted.

You know what I am finding as missing in this discussion ?

A developer's point of view.

I mean, we are talking about role playing games, skills, CAPs and a whole variety of issues and how a game could be better one way or the other.

Different players have different opinions, of course, but perhaps, to hear the real professionals, those who do it for a living, what do they think about it, would be interesting at least for the sake of the discussion.

I mean, a game can be just about anything or there "should" be some frames within which things should be kept ?

Is Ultima Online still a role playing game ?

Was it right to make it item dependant so much when it used to be skill focused ?

I would really like to hear professionals' opinions, the developers that is, on general issues like the above.

 

[Lady_Calina]

So you also think that you shouldn't be able to have a crafter as a secondary character, only as a primary?

You'd like SWG. Two toons per server.

 

[Connor_Graham]

There is a whole lot of reasons why I think it much better in a role playing game that players picked a role and stayed with it.

Then go to an amusement park game and leave our sandbox. UO is UO because it allows you to do whatever you want. If you don't like it, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Hmmm really ?

So under that same logic also duping is then legal ?

I mean, duping has been going on for almost as long as Ultima Online's life which is, MUCH longer than the breaking of the 720 skill CAP has been going on.......

I am sorry, but the fact that whatever the reason this was overlooked does not mean, at least to me, that +skill items are fine and dandy.......

They punch through the 720 set skill CAP and this should not have been and should not be, IMHO.

Wtf! How can you compare going above a soft cap by completely legal means to duping?
Thats not even compairing apples to oranges. It's like compairing an apple to a tank, or a Pepsi to a Giraffe. Thats exactly how much sense that made to me.

And you keep assuming the Devs just never noticed in all these years that people have actually been using the +skill items and the only reason there still allowed is because they Devs simply haven't noticed them yet??



Think it over and try again because I can't believe that came out how you wanted it to.

 

[popps]

So you also think that you shouldn't be able to have a crafter as a secondary character, only as a primary?

You'd like SWG. Two toons per server.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't one of the main developers of SWG someone also having a key role in Ultima Online as it was back in 1997 ?

Yes, I could enjoy SWG I know, just like I loved the early UO, but my only problem is the setting, don't like that particular setting but the design framework certainly pleases me..........

 

[Coppelia]

That's your opinion popps, mine is that there should be one account by player, because having several accounts doesn't make sense. With that one account, I should be able to play everything I want to play in the game. The restrictions on number of characters and the right to own several account is a very weak decision from publishers to earn more money, just because they can.
On a solo game, I can play all the characters I want. On multiplayer games like Diablo, one account allows me to play all the characters I want.

Because frankly, with only two characters UO would be quickly boring. That's what's great in UO : you can vary activity. It helps to keep the game interresting after all those years.

And today, if you want to be efficient in one field, you need to dedicate to it. You can't be the top BOD runner, the top merchant, the top PvPer and the top PvEr. Even if you have all these characters. So you actually rely on others.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...That's at least my vision of how a role playing game should be.

Now is the time to rename this thread as How I want UO to be ....

The argument is looking a lot more like an argument on CoB a long time ago.

The Short Version of the argument ......

"UO should have a player driven economy, so the Dev's should allow crafters to make items that exceed what NPC's offer".

The Short Version of the Rebuttal ........

"What Player Vendors stay stocked 24/7/356/12(years)? Oh, you say NONE? Well then, if the Player Ran Merchants WONT MAINTAIN THEMSELVES HOW CAN THER BE A PLAYER RAN ECONOMY?"

Now Popps, no matter how hard you wish and what ever your doing, that has been the hard reality to UO. No PLAYER is going to baby sit their Vendor 100% of the time and guess what, if some one is Baby Sitting their Vendor 100% of their time, then they are not really playing UO are they. Want to guess what they are doing with that Income?

All of this points to the UO player NEEDING to be as self sufficient as they can be. Think not? Ok, I would think it obvious, if Player Tommy depends on Vendor Samantha products and Vendor Samantha takes a Holiday/a break then Player Tommy needs to find an alternate source or NOT PLAY. Unreliability of sourcing a material drives the need to be Self Sufficient.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't one of the main developers of SWG someone also having a key role in Ultima Online as it was back in 1997 ?..........

Yes it was DD and it was DD's vision that made UO.

His failure was NOT his vision, it was an inability to understand the Nature of Evil to activate a community and he failed SWG.

 

[popps]

UO is UO because it allows you to do whatever you want.

Hmmm, so if I may ask, what exactly is Ultima Online today ?

I mean, we have Ninjas, we have samurais, we even have cannons !!!

Are we talking of Ultima Online of the Ultima saga or what ?

I am not sure if I understand what this game is now.