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PvP Smack talk thread...Restarted!!

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Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Alister still talking and you got 7 kills? killing support chars that sit there at the harrower not even being attended to counts as kills? I guess for you since you cant kill anyone any other way. Simple fact you got the Sh$T beat out of you BY ME one on one nothing else you can say. Enough said I PWN YOU SON.....

NOTE: I saw stussy running fine with no lag when he had 5 other people on to protect him, HMMMMMMM sounds like you really do have a bad connection :lick:
Take ownage about being a bad player and don't hide behind MY CONNECTION,thats played out. I saw you moving just fine. My connection....................
Word is after SW@T killed us all their 5 PvPers out of 15 logged out together, essentially giving 7 of us the harrower.

I just want to clear up any confusion so let me issue this challenge.

No excuses. No being unprepared.

Date and time of a scheduled SW@T harrower.

Give us 5 days in advance, just to make sure we can coordinate having Lorrio, Toi, Elrond, Zindool, and dbo coming in addition to the squad we had today.

We will let you guys kill up to the true harrower giving you enough time to set up bagballs and choke points for when we raid you.

This will ensure that none of your PvPers have to log out for the day, since you know, it was planned 5 days ahead.

If you DO beat us we will not have excuses like you do. Apparently since you guys didn't plan ahead to do this harrower today you have all of the excuses to lose it in the world.

Also Multani Almighty is Multani, just to clear things up. I know that's a difficult one to read but some of you have confusion about it so, that's that.

I issued you the challenge at Yew gate face to face on your blue, that I will redo that duel with you any time.

Looking forward to your response about a SCHEDULED harrower there should be no excuses given the number of people you had on today. Just make sure your top 5 stick around this time.

Ho ho ho,

- The Real Santa
 

Goodmann

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
So, then if your "pvpers" had to log off, why would you even pop a harrower?? its rather odd, that 5 ppl had to log off all at the same time.. and it was known about before the harrower was started.... nice try with the lies..
Why not pop a harrower? Hell people on this shard are afraid or to stupid to pop one.
Some people got the idea and they went wih it to pop one. Name me another guild who has even attempted a harrower on origin besides ffzb and @sw@t? CAN YOU NAME ONE?
I did enjoy rolling in and killing everyone one of them and I hope they dont try to deny we rolled in and killed every character they had.
 

Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Why not pop a harrower? Hell people on this shard are afraid or to stupid to pop one.
Some people got the idea and they went wih it to pop one. Name me another guild who has even attempted a harrower on origin besides ffzb and @sw@t? CAN YOU NAME ONE?
I did enjoy rolling in and killing everyone one of them and I hope they dont try to deny we rolled in and killed every character they had.
Excuse me.

You DO realise we have done 5 late afternoon harrowers since last Saturday? I believe they are all screenshotted as well. Where have you been?

Checkmate.
 
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Dirty Mindz

Guest
Why not pop a harrower? Hell people on this shard are afraid or to stupid to pop one.
Some people got the idea and they went wih it to pop one. Name me another guild who has even attempted a harrower on origin besides ffzb and @sw@t? CAN YOU NAME ONE?
I did enjoy rolling in and killing everyone one of them and I hope they dont try to deny we rolled in and killed every character they had.
Erm, FL did harrowers on this shard...
 

Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Still looking for our R-E-S-P-E-C-T from you guys.

Some of your guild has been respectable in game. To put it bluntly, Dreamweaver said "you kicked our asses".

And Lil Missy pointed out the only reason she will not join us is because Courage is her brother in law in real life.

We will not be taking any SW@T into our guild by the way.

Respect Courage? You don't know what RESPECT is. All excuses..all excuses man.
 

Goodmann

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Erm, FL did harrowers on this shard...
In the last three months since we have been here, guilds other than us to do harry's=0
Thanks for playing.

Alister, since your not good at pvping maybe you can get with crystal and make kegs and empty water barels :gun:
 

Multani

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
FFZB GONE? KNEW MULTANI COULD NOT KEEP THAT SINKING SHIP AFLOAT

FFBz is not the kind of guild that is going to back down, we issued a challenge and we saw it through until the end. The only reason you even considered doing it today was you thought we are hurting from losing almost half of our guild 2 days prior.

We made one key mistake during that harrower, which you guys should have capitalized on but you failed and we won. The difference is we learn from our mistakes and take that into consideration when we are fighting whereas SW@T will keep repeating the same ineffective tactic over and over again.

Multani need some cure pots muhahhaahha
Looting my entire stock of potions was more of an annoyance then anything, I already had everything needed to restock it. Now its just a matter of taking the time to rebuild what was stolen.


Honestly though,

You should just stop making excuses now, you tried to do a harrower because you thought we were vulnerable. Yet we still managed to crush you 7v15.
 

Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Alister, since your not good at pvping maybe you can get with crystal and make kegs and empty water barels :gun:
Yeah and since you're so good maybe you can write on here 5 days in advance when you will be popping your next harrower.
 
C

Crystal Canyon

Guest
Alister, since your not good at pvping maybe you can get with crystal and make kegs and empty water barels :gun:
I really don't need Sir Alister's assistance making kegs. I'll just stand for a couple hours in my white robe repeating "make last, make last, make last".

You, on the other hand might need Sir Alisters assistance in rezzing you, after you stand at the Harry in your gray robe repeating OooOOo, OooOO, OooOooo. :stretcher:

Pssst...BTW, you might want to ask your good friends where they got the empty water barrels they gave you to put in my house. Just in case you want to do it again and try to MAKE some. :loser: hehehehe
 
E

Eyes of Origin

Guest
I can think of a few guilds that have done Harrowers on Origin, besides FFBz and SWAT... AV, CCC, FL, I think even LSN managed to do some when they had players here as well.... Some guilds unfortunately do not have as many people as they once did, not enough to do a harrower successfully, primetime or not =/
 

Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I can think of a few guilds that have done Harrowers on Origin, besides FFBz and SWAT... AV, CCC, FL, I think even LSN managed to do some when they had players here as well.... Some guilds unfortunately do not have as many people as they once did, not enough to do a harrower successfully, primetime or not =/
SW@T if you give us a payment of 70K farmed silver and the skulls to do a harrower with the seven of us will have no problem doing the harrower for you. This is our CHEAPEST rate. We will keep any replicas but give you guys the scrolls we get. Let us know if this is a program you might express interest in.

Thanks.
 

Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Whoa, look at that.

Statistics show that SW@T has more overall members and more veteran members than FFBz.

Statistics also show that FFBz has the shard lead on faction points up to yesterday when we quit Minax to join SL.

Statistics also show that SW@T is consistently losing harrowers, champion spawns, and Yew gate fights from FFBz.

You guys should boot some members to make yourselves feel better.

We are increasing the margin of dominance on this shard.

Since you know, there is no excuse in the world when we go by statistics right Courage?
 

Goodmann

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
statistics show alister has beaten me 0 times which equals 0.00% win percent.

If I have 4 accounts and have all the poeple in Sw@T that would raise our numbers but i can again only play one account a time :/

We lost *one* out of 10 harrowers so statistics would say we have a 90% success rate on harrowers
*(only because people could not stay online to see it through)*

You have never beaten anyone in sw@t one on one so you are still at 0% win rate. Duel courage again see what happens? Duel me again see what happens? HELL i let you pick the person to duel and you would still loose. My spawner is up for a duel if you want. Join CCC and churn some kegs out.
Thanks for playing son
 

Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Goodmann is looking for ways to protest further embarassment.

SW@T has no unity.

You guys are getting embarassed repetitvely everywhere in-game and on the boards.

As a group you suck. Courage's own family member Lil Missy wants to join us but won't for concern of her brother in-law. She begged us to let her loot the gold after our harrower we took from you guys in Destard.

I don't see Mr. Snuggles aka Shenanigans on here bragging. He beat your whole guild in duels 1v1. Multani Extreme schooled you in 20 seconds. I don't see him bringing it up every second post.

You avoid the topic of every duel request I've made since you managed to "kill" me. Not my loss. The best players in the game bounce back. I've bounced back and I'll whoop your sorry, childish ass.

You guys have no bounce you just sink to the bottom.

Outclassed on the boards, outclassed in the game.

Time to get back to the drawing board.

Oh yeah and one last thing, any chance of you guys scheduling a harrower and posting it on here five days in advance?
 

Goodmann

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Alister writes - "The best players in the game bounce back. I've bounced back"

So you claiming to be one of the best in the game? Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee..........................
1. we have compared pvp skills=you loose
2. over 5 billion in gold=you loose
3. billions in rares=you loose
anything else to compare? Thanks for playing son

So continue to keep talking and let everyone see how bad you really are. I love how crytsal of ccc gets on your junk when she doesn't even know what felluca is. Keep selling those pots
 

Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You don't have 5 billion gold. You don't have that many rares either. Additionally, you suck at PvP.

Nothing you say offers any credibility, nor sparks any interest whatsoever. I am done with your sorry ass on here.


Alister writes - "The best players in the game bounce back. I've bounced back"

So you claiming to be one of the best in the game? Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee..........................
1. we have compared pvp skills=you loose
2. over 5 billion in gold=you loose
3. billions in rares=you loose
anything else to compare? Thanks for playing son

So continue to keep talking and let everyone see how bad you really are. I love how crytsal of ccc gets on your junk when she doesn't even know what felluca is. Keep selling those pots
 

Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
you are done here because you have been owned son. deal with it
The only thing you and your guild have owned at is losing harrowers. I've demoralized Courage and made you my huckleberry. That's all there is to it.

You're running desperate.
 

Goodmann

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The only thing you and your guild have owned at is losing harrowers. I've demoralized Courage and made you my huckleberry. That's all there is to it.

You're running desperate.

Harowers? We only lost one so get that correct.
I'm your huckleberry? Wass't it me who beat you under 10 seconds one on one? That would make you my B*T@H. Thanks for playing son. Know you place and that would be at my feet son
 

Stussywear

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
SW@T is 0-2 on harrowers (1 raiding, 1 defending) when anyone even knew about it. That's a 0.00% chance of success on raiding or defending a harrower.


Santa Claws is 0-3 on accepting a rematch duel vs Allister that I've personally witnessed, that means he has a 0.00% chance of proving hes not a 1 hit wonder. Anyone can get lucky and beat anyone in UO one time.

Billions of gold and billions of rares.. hahahahaha.. thats why the gear of most of your guild sucks so bad? Right.

Keep getting schooled, then when you are so tired of it, go transfer off claiming victory. Everyone outside your guild knows how bad you guys are.
 
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Courage_couragejr

Guest
hmm swat 1 and ffbz cheatengine 2

all show me one pic with your journel open of you killing anyone 1v1 untill thats done your just words on a form. wow you are by far a joke. anyone can go out and wait for his guild mates to get someone low and run up and get the kill shot. by no means could you stand toe to toe with anyone in my guild. only thing i give your guild a thumbs up on is loreing greater dragons on us and inv. now show me in them screen shots santa or doubleclick or juvy or white nuc or death or one other cant rember. they said before we started they could not do the hole harry. but the rest still wanted too. what happen when they were on and you had bag balls all over the place? dont see a post about that. you were smoked. what about the scrolls you lost.1 25 and 2 20 dont see a post about that one. you were so good you say then you should have had time to get them all out. what happen was you started to die and you all scattred like chickens. were from a east cost server and you still got rolled over untill my reds had to log other then me and one other.







QUOTE=Sir Alister;1074816]OK Fine Courage I didn't do anything it was 6vs15 does that make it better?

I got 7 kills on you morons. You single me out as an individual you know why? Because I'm the most hated player by your guild. Without me, you would have no purpose being on this thread. You NEED me Courage, you need me. FACE it. You are a no name trash trammy, trying to PvP for the notoriety of BEING someone like us. But the fact of the matter is Courage, you just ain't flashy enough. The fact of the matter, Courage, is that you're a trammy and so is your son. Your bloodline is doomed from the start and your son's son will be as big of a trammy as you are.

You're a liar both Courages were there to the end, you were just in stat while the true was redlined. ALL of your characters were in stat you newbie.

Oh yeah, and refuse to face the issue that we OWNED you. Feel free to schedule one next time and I'll slap you around like the one dimensional trammy you are.

Ta ta for now.

- Santa Clause[/QUOTE]
 
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Courage_couragejr

Guest
Well I guess ill go ahead and throw my self into the board battles and be cool like everyone else. I would like to put one fact on the table and go from there. I have beat courage on both his chars 1v1 and santa so lets see if your man enough to admit it?

you beat me on courage jr. you did not beat me on courage. stay on my screen then you may talk. i have beaten you on my courage jr and got 20 kill points.
 

Stussywear

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
LOL so just all of the reds you had online, just happen to have to leave at the same time? hahahahahaha... More like your guild got discouraged after everyone going into stat loss and logged because they knew it was a battle they couldnt win. This way you could try to make excuses why you lost it... big surprise.


Now you're accusing us of using 3rd party programs (which is illegal on stratics) because you're sore. AND NOW YOUR ALSO BRINGING UP YOUR EAST COAST? 1) Then why did you come to a west coast server, to make excuses? and 2) a GOOD portion of us in FFBZ are east coast, so excuse is void.

Courage you are full of crap, and you suck at pvp. Your guild is a bag full of excuses. Too bad your excuses are as bad as your pvp.
 

Hi_im_from_atl

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Strussy, when you paged on me and posted here accusing me of using 3rd party programs... was it because you were sore?
 

Stussywear

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Create food, do we want to elaborate on the exploit you use? There is a difference between speculation and using blatent exploits in game mechanics to arm weapons 3x faster then intended.


Me making comment to you guys improving speed seemed fishy to me, i never said you used speedhack. I said it was very odd how all of you got so much faster in the span of a few days.


So, nice try.

:heart: always
 

Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Just for the record , all of my screenshots include my taskbar which nullifies any allegation that I'm using any illegal 3rd party apps. UOAssist does not classify illegal. I don't know about the rest of you guys. Accusing legit players of cheating is pretty low on my chart of R-E-S-P-E-C-T. You guys lost a harrower 7vs15 and no excuse in the world is going to rectify that.

Courage you have no discipline. But you do have an inferiority complex I have no clue how you get along with life.
 
G

Ghost_Writer

Guest
Lets tone this conversation down a bit. The insults and constant fighting between a few is getting out of hand.
 

Pan Arcane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yes, I agree with Ghost Writer. I am done here. However I will continue to stand behind my words as they are the truth. I have given those that deserve credit where it is due but have harshly slandered those that are "pretenders" within the game. COURAGE is a pretender. We have been considering planting a player in his guild for kicks just to record him spazzing out on us in Ventrilo. Must be a laugh and a half.

This type of dialogue back and forward is what keeps me interested in Ultima Online. The type of dialogue to know that your whole guild hates me. The type of dialogue that makes it so "rewarding" for you to kill me (which almost never happens). The truth is that if I were in your guild and had to put up with me and all of the honesty I'd be choked. Especially to know how badly we wanted that harrower and to be so close but be literally outclassed by a better guild at the end. That would be incentive for me to just say, "to hell with it".

Santa Claws tried to say to me in game, "Don't take the board talk seriously it is all just fun".

To me it is not fun, I enjoy every moment of embarassing your guild. It is business. I really do hope I make SW@T consider quitting Ultima Online because it will bring the skill average up on Origin. Our enforcers are on the way. FFBz is #1 for a long time to come and the rest of you all can compete for the #2 spot. It is really out of our hands now.

Business is done here for real this time. See you kids in game if you have the COURAGE.
 

Goodmann

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yes, I agree with Ghost Writer. I am done here. However I will continue to stand behind my words as they are the truth. I have given those that deserve credit where it is due but have harshly slandered those that are "pretenders" within the game. COURAGE is a pretender. We have been considering planting a player in his guild for kicks just to record him spazzing out on us in Ventrilo. Must be a laugh and a half.

This type of dialogue back and forward is what keeps me interested in Ultima Online. The type of dialogue to know that your whole guild hates me. The type of dialogue that makes it so "rewarding" for you to kill me (which almost never happens).

Santa Claws tried to say to me in game, "Don't take the board talk seriously it is all just fun".

To me it is not fun, I enjoy every moment of embarassing your guild. It is business. I really do hope I make SW@T consider quitting Ultima Online because it will bring the skill average up on Origin. Our enforcers are on the way. FFBz is #1 for a long time to come and the rest of you all can compete for the #2 spot. It is really out of our hands now.

Business is done here for real this time. See you kids in game if you have the COURAGE.
Come in our vent and it will be chilled and relaxed unlike ffzb vent. I hear in ffzb everyone yells and noone calls targets and HOW everyone thinks you are soooo goood. They say in vent Multani is a mute and how is he suppsoe to be the GM. Whats wrong multani, talk to people in your vent. I assume you a shutin that never leaves his house for the reasons a. you cant fit out the door or b. your afraid of running into santa claws.

Alister let me know when you get a kill on your own better yet take a screeny I need it for my wall paper

FYI: this is a pvp smack talk thread NOTHING GETS TONED DOWN

SANTA CLAWS VERSION 2.0 ON THE LOOSE--_RAAAWWWRRR
 
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Ghost_Writer

Guest
FYI: this is a pvp smack talk thread NOTHING GETS TONED DOWN
This is still a moderated forum and personal RL references and insults will not be tolerated. An don't raise your voice to me. You'll notice by my lack of posts I'm very tolerant and lenient about what goes on here. I expect some respect when I do have to say something.
 
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Dirty Mindz

Guest
This is still a moderated forum and personal RL references and insults will not be tolerated. An don't raise your voice to me. You'll notice by my lack of posts I'm very tolerant and lenient about what goes on here. I expect some respect when I do have to say something.
Lol, its santa claws, he's a 13 year old kid whos going through puberty, he uses raciest words because he thinks its cool to do. he swears when his parents arent around but when they are around hes a good boy.

Courage, ill stand 1v1 with anyone in ur guild face to face, AND, ill be the one standing there with ur guildmate dead on the ground.

Noone in ur guild will fight me 1v1, and if they attempt to, either they mana vamp, or just run.

So please chump get on my level.
 

Oriana

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
FYI: this is a pvp smack talk thread NOTHING GETS TONED DOWN
This is still a moderated forum and personal RL references and insults will not be tolerated. An don't raise your voice to me. You'll notice by my lack of posts I'm very tolerant and lenient about what goes on here. I expect some respect when I do have to say something.
This is a very monitored thread whether you guys believe it or not and Ghost_Writer is the main man here. Show some respect. Or I'll remind you why he and I are moderators!!
 

Goodmann

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
GHOSTWRITER- lets meet in felluca and have a pvp match. I can then add you to my long list of who's been nuaghty or nice at pvp. HO HO HO

This goes for everyone in ULTIMA ONLINE and you wanna be the best you GOTTA BEAT THE BEST
 
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Dirty Mindz

Guest
GHOSTWRITER- lets meet in felluca and have a pvp match. I can then add you to my long list of who's been nuaghty or nice at pvp. HO HO HO

This goes for everyone in ULTIMA ONLINE and you wanna be the best you GOTTA BEAT THE BEST
Eh, i know ur not talking bout ur self?

considering ive beaten you.. many times and they were 3v1 3 swat vs poor ol dope boy
 
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Courage_couragejr

Guest
still waits for you to post just one only one screen shot of you owning anyone in swat 1v1. brought up east cost cause you have such a hard time fighting us from the east cost shards. that live on east cost that is. was just saying that if we had same ping as chessy you would need 7 times your numbers to beat us. all and the 3rd party progs when i can keep right on top of you and you stop for a sec and zoom you walk faster then i run on a mount yea thats a 3rd prog. im sorry some of your guild mates that is.
and i still waite for one pic of your journal open and you killing any of us 1v1. waits and waits days go by years go by still waits for 1 pic and still you can not post one. your a from pvper lol thats it.


LOL so just all of the reds you had online, just happen to have to leave at the same time? hahahahahaha... More like your guild got discouraged after everyone going into stat loss and logged because they knew it was a battle they couldnt win. This way you could try to make excuses why you lost it... big surprise.


Now you're accusing us of using 3rd party programs (which is illegal on stratics) because you're sore. AND NOW YOUR ALSO BRINGING UP YOUR EAST COAST? 1) Then why did you come to a west coast server, to make excuses? and 2) a GOOD portion of us in FFBZ are east coast, so excuse is void.

Courage you are full of crap, and you suck at pvp. Your guild is a bag full of excuses. Too bad your excuses are as bad as your pvp.
 
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Courage_couragejr

Guest
im
dope boy zoom zoom zoom. watch how fast i can go. i bet you say in vent to the bat cave zoom zoom.


Eh, i know ur not talking bout ur self?

considering ive beaten you.. many times and they were 3v1 3 swat vs poor ol dope boy
 

Stussywear

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
still waits for you to post just one only one screen shot of you owning anyone in swat 1v1. brought up east cost cause you have such a hard time fighting us from the east cost shards. that live on east cost that is. was just saying that if we had same ping as chessy you would need 7 times your numbers to beat us. all and the 3rd party progs when i can keep right on top of you and you stop for a sec and zoom you walk faster then i run on a mount yea thats a 3rd prog. im sorry some of your guild mates that is.
and i still waite for one pic of your journal open and you killing any of us 1v1. waits and waits days go by years go by still waits for 1 pic and still you can not post one. your a from pvper lol thats it.

Someone would have to leave the house or actually engage me 1 v1 for me to kill them 1v1. Usually i dont kill sw@t 1v 1 because the opportunity never arrises.. nobody is ever on in swat when i can actually play.. they joust the house, or sit in the window shooting arrows.

Anyone can say I fake my ping, and that I am just making excuses, that's fine. My guild and I know my connection pre-1am int he morning, and for example here it is now.

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\user>ping origin.owo.com

Pinging central-aw6.owo.com [159.153.209.66] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 159.153.209.66: bytes=32 time=1143ms TTL=49
Reply from 159.153.209.66: bytes=32 time=1182ms TTL=49
Reply from 159.153.209.66: bytes=32 time=1332ms TTL=49
Reply from 159.153.209.66: bytes=32 time=1085ms TTL=49

Ping statistics for 159.153.209.66:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 1085ms, Maximum = 1332ms, Average = 1185ms

C:\Documents and Settings\user>

Nobody can play on that type of connection, i cant even stock my potions with that lag. And that's why i havent "Hunted you down" ATL because, i cant catch you when im not lagging, and definatley not when im pinging like i am now.
 
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Dirty Mindz

Guest
im
dope boy zoom zoom zoom. watch how fast i can go. i bet you say in vent to the bat cave zoom zoom.
Lol this meaning what??

Ive got a 4-6 ping to any west coast server, im legit, next time i kill u ill prove it, with a good ol screenie..

You guys keep saying ffbz are hackers, but look at santa claws, hes faster then me... and ur calling me a speed hacker, so whats that say about him?
 

Oriana

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ok since we're approaching the 400 mark on here fast and this thread is getting a tad out of hand anyway. I'm locking this one and restarting. And before the conspiracy theorist get going...I haven't a care no clue as to who's who or cutting it off due to any particular group.
 
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