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KYRONIX HAS ASKED FOR INPUT FOR THE NEXT EVENTS

Keith of Sonoma

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Maybe her team cannot come up with anything good, but then she should know enough to get someone better.
That is the root of the problem. In her mind she CAN'T get anyone better. She KNOWS she isn't very good at what she does, and is deathly afraid to get someone capable. In fear that she would be "exposed" for what she is. Someone who got promoted above her ability, and continues to TRY to make herself "look good", in hopes that no one will notice how inept she really is!
 
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tanotan

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
All facets get a feluccian ruleset for the duration of the next event. That`s what I would prefer, after playing UO for nearly 23 years :)

What I mean is, that playing UO nowadays has become something like getting in a flowdown on the freeway and putting the feluccian ruleset on all facets during the event time would be like driving on a german autobahn with no speed limits.
That wouldn`t be boring. :)
 
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Keven2002

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Their level of incompetence in even the simplest things like spelling or grammar is just inexcusable in today's world of spell check and grammar software that is FREE... They obviously don't proofread anything they post its pathetic.
This is spot on. The fact that something like "____ of wildifre" made it into production is a little embarrassing. I've said it from the start that Misk is a waste of a resource and shows perfectly how Mesanna is just collecting 2 paychecks for 1 job (some could argue collecting 2 paychecks for less than 1 job).
 

John Knighthawke

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
All facets get a feluccian ruleset for the duration of the next event. That`s what I would prefer, after playing UO for nearly 23 years :)

What I mean is, that playing UO nowadays has become something like getting in a flowdown on the freeway and putting the feluccian ruleset on all facets during the event time would be like driving on a german autobahn with no speed limits.
That wouldn`t be boring. :)
Actually I think most players would be bored as Hell because they just wouldn't play during that period. Remember that unlike the 'old days' of UO there's many other MMOs to choose from.
 

Theno

Visitor
By now it's just hilarious how your forum here is a total hurrah parade of "anti-Broadsword ideals".

And why everyone of you is still playing on the official servers is beyond me and absolutely ridiculous. Are you guys masochistic or what? Or are you just stupid and pay just for miserable fun or for your pathetic pleasure?

Just... wow... ROFL
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
By now it's just hilarious how your forum here is a total hurrah parade of "anti-Broadsword ideals".

And why everyone of you is still playing on the official servers is beyond me and absolutely ridiculous. Are you guys masochistic or what? Or are you just stupid and pay just for miserable fun or for your pathetic pleasure?

Just... wow... ROFL
Most of them do not play UO anymore. They come here for? I don't know.
 

Lindae Lives

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Please let it be known that I love and approve of the developers. I only participate in threads like this for my own depraved gratification.
 

dvv

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
By now it's just hilarious how your forum here is a total hurrah parade of "anti-Broadsword ideals".

And why everyone of you is still playing on the official servers is beyond me and absolutely ridiculous. Are you guys masochistic or what? Or are you just stupid and pay just for miserable fun or for your pathetic pleasure?

Just... wow... ROFL
Yeah dude I’m so stupid!! You are really cool that’s all I know. So cool wow.
 

petemage

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
By now it's just hilarious how your forum here is a total hurrah parade of "anti-Broadsword ideals".

And why everyone of you is still playing on the official servers is beyond me and absolutely ridiculous. Are you guys masochistic or what? Or are you just stupid and pay just for miserable fun or for your pathetic pleasure?

Just... wow... ROFL
Unlike the official forums, Stratics also welcomes EJ players and UO players from freeshards. UO is a bigger than you think.
 

Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
By now it's just hilarious how your forum here is a total hurrah parade of "anti-Broadsword ideals".

And why everyone of you is still playing on the official servers is beyond me and absolutely ridiculous. Are you guys masochistic or what? Or are you just stupid and pay just for miserable fun or for your pathetic pleasure?

Just... wow... ROFL
I'm only here for the trolling.
 

Spartan

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Nice answers guys! I'm just so grateful you all make it possible we will have the official UO for another decade at least because you pay every month, for all of us!

:thumbsup:
It ain't your wallet/purse, so why are you so concerned? Doesn't make sense. <removes Unleashed-style remark>
 

JohnnyO

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
By now it's just hilarious how your forum here is a total hurrah parade of "anti-Broadsword ideals".

And why everyone of you is still playing on the official servers is beyond me and absolutely ridiculous. Are you guys masochistic or what? Or are you just stupid and pay just for miserable fun or for your pathetic pleasure?

Just... wow... ROFL
Or we just love UO and aren't completely satisfied with the current product?:next:
 

The Zog historian

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Nice answers guys! I'm just so grateful you all make it possible we will have the official UO for another decade at least because you pay every month, for all of us!

:thumbsup:
I reactivated two out of six accounts for the Fire event. The others remain on a 30/90 cycle to keep the houses up, which is entirely on BS (rather an initialism on them) for not creating enough interest to retain active accounts, and not fixing enough bugs that drive players into multi-month inactivity. Fire brought me back for a little to play with some friends again, and getting some of the rewards that hopefully will enhance playing with them in the future. It's been longer than I intended because once the event began and I saw how much drops were selling for, I spent the first little while making an easy half plat that I'll someday use for scrolls.
 

The Zog historian

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Actually I think most players would be bored as Hell because they just wouldn't play during that period. Remember that unlike the 'old days' of UO there's many other MMOs to choose from.
Without Trammel, EQ would have been only one of several nails in UO's coffin. The Devs then were initially firm about nonsense like "player justice" and "We don't want to inhibit playstyles," but then they realized how many players were fleeing for games where someone could actually have fun in a dungeon, without a gank squad suddenly gating in.
 

Danpal

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I find it arousing to be brutally dismantled by some beef-headed swordsman and my poor defenceless bones picked through for loot.
There is a little shop in Zeto that love to powder the bones and sell it just like Rhino horn powder. Made a nice pile of gold getting them Lich bones
 

Lindae Lives

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
There is a little shop in Zeto that love to powder the bones and sell it just like Rhino horn powder. Made a nice pile of gold getting them Lich bones
My friend's family made their fortune trading lich parts for use in potions and fertility charms. It's more efficient than poaching wildlife because one does not even need to de-animate the lich in order to harvest parts. One simply summons a handful of blade spirits and then picks up the pieces afterward. Depending on the lich, they can easily replace them.
 

tanotan

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Without Trammel, EQ would have been only one of several nails in UO's coffin. The Devs then were initially firm about nonsense like "player justice" and "We don't want to inhibit playstyles," but then they realized how many players were fleeing for games where someone could actually have fun in a dungeon, without a gank squad suddenly gating in.
Under feluccian Ruleset, you can`t gate into a dungeon... abd btw. we have insurance, so what? Many ppl from other games would come to play UO and i think more ppl would come to the game than leave it.
 
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Nyses

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Under feluccian Ruleset, you can`t gate into a dungeon... abd btw. we have insurance, so what? Many ppl from other games would come to play UO and i think more ppl would come to the game than leave it.
Well, in my opinion, your opinion is wrong!
 

John Knighthawke

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Under feluccian Ruleset, you can`t gate into a dungeon... abd btw. we have insurance, so what? Many ppl from other games would come to play UO and i think more ppl would come to the game than leave it.
It would make UO as successful as Shadowbane.
 

The Zog historian

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Under feluccian Ruleset, you can`t gate into a dungeon... abd btw. we have insurance, so what? Many ppl from other games would come to play UO and i think more ppl would come to the game than leave it.
Since you seem unfamiliar with UO's early history, there was no item insurance until a few years after the facet split, and recalling/gating into dungeons was certainly normal until champ spawns came about.

Keeping items somehow (not necessarily as item insurance as we know it) was one proposal so players wouldn't spend time killing a blood elemental, only for a hidden PK to tell his friends to come in and gank. UO was bleeding players who knew that the devs' desire for "player justice" was a cop-out. If you'd like, I could repost a few old posts that I saved from Stratics and Crossroads of Britannia.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
Since you seem unfamiliar with UO's early history, there was no item insurance until a few years after the facet split, and recalling/gating into dungeons was certainly normal until champ spawns came about.

Keeping items somehow (not necessarily as item insurance as we know it) was one proposal so players wouldn't spend time killing a blood elemental, only for a hidden PK to tell his friends to come in and gank. UO was bleeding players who knew that the devs' desire for "player justice" was a cop-out. If you'd like, I could repost a few old posts that I saved from Stratics and Crossroads of Britannia.
Item Insurance came with Age of Shadows Feb 2003
Gate/recall into Fel Dungeons stopped with Pub 16 Power Scrolls July 2002
Tram creation UOR May 2000
 

tanotan

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Since you seem unfamiliar with UO's early history, there was no item insurance until a few years after the facet split, and recalling/gating into dungeons was certainly normal until champ spawns came about.
I didn`t mean the rulesetting of 2000 and before, I meant the actual felucca rules. So we have insurance and you can`t gate or recall into a fel dungeon in 2021. And pls don`t tell ppl your ancient knowledge. I play since 1998 and i know the old rules too.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
I didn`t mean the rulesetting of 2000 and before, I meant the actual felucca rules. So we have insurance and you can`t gate or recall into a fel dungeon in 2021. And pls don`t tell ppl your ancient knowledge. I play since 1998 and i know the old rules too.
Then you must have forgot why they did away with recall/gate in fel dungeons, but I bet I know why you want it back.
 

Lex Darion

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Then you must have forgot why they did away with recall/gate in fel dungeons, but I bet I know why you want it back.
There was certainly more emergent gameplay.
Sure you'd have pks gate into monsters and then mop up and loot corpses.
But you'd also have people who'd storm in and mop up the monsters AND pks.

There have been several games where unforgiving rulesets have thrived. The new gaming population has grown up and adapted.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
There was certainly more emergent gameplay.
Sure you'd have pks gate into monsters and then mop up and loot corpses.
But you'd also have people who'd storm in and mop up the monsters AND pks.

There have been several games where unforgiving rulesets have thrived. The new gaming population has grown up and adapted.
I remember all the PKs and Zerg guilds screaming how it would be unfair if you could gate/recall out with all your PSs so they couldn't steal them. We are talking a decision made 20 years ago to keep the wild west going and give control of a very hot market controlled by a minority of the player base.
 

tanotan

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Then you must have forgot why they did away with recall/gate in fel dungeons, but I bet I know why you want it back.
I wrote the actual rulesetting and NOT the old rules. Who`s able to read, has an advantage. :)
With a fel rulesetting, this game would be much more a mmorpg. People would play much more together, than on Trammel for example and that`s the reason why I think that more people would join UO than people would leave it, especially because the fel rules would only last until the event expires, maybe 4 or 6 or 8 weeks. Noone of the trammies would leave the game forever, because the event would end in a few weeks. But many new and old player would come, to look at UO with that special event rules and many would stay longer, than only for event`s duration.
Teamplay on felucca is that what i prefer and i dont mean ganking other players or something like "player justice".
 
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Lex Darion

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
I wrote the actual rulesetting and NOT the old rules. Who`s able to read, has an advantage. :)
With a fel rulesetting, this game would be much more a mmorpg. People would play much more together, than on Trammel for example and that`s the reason why I think that more people would join UO than people would leave it, especially because the fel rules would only last until the event expires, maybe 4 or 6 or 8 weeks. Noone of the trammies would leave the game forever, because the event would end in a few weeks. But many new and old player would come, to look at UO with that special event rules and many would stay longer, than only for event`s duration.
Teamplay on felucca is that what i prefer and i dont mean ganking other players or something like "player justice".
I think the problem is not only about fell ruleset. It stretches much further than than in terms of activities which has decreased group play requirement.

These are just a few of many examples.
- VS/vendors/general chat (while convenient) made street peddlers less abundant. People would sit at banks and sell their stuff. Now they just put on vendors if spam general chat.

- Repair deeds, you used to have people sit at blacksmiths or tinkers or other craftsshops offering their repair services. The good craftsmen built names of being reputable and not stealing your ****.

There was a sense of wonder and mystery when not everything in UO was mapped out. It was fresh grounds to be explored and mechanics to be found.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
I wrote the actual rulesetting and NOT the old rules. Who`s able to read, has an advantage. :)
With a fel rulesetting, this game would be much more a mmorpg. People would play much more together, than on Trammel for example and that`s the reason why I think that more people would join UO than people would leave it, especially because the fel rules would only last until the event expires, maybe 4 or 6 or 8 weeks. Noone of the trammies would leave the game forever, because the event would end in a few weeks. But many new and old player would come, to look at UO with that special event rules and many would stay longer, than only for event`s duration.
Teamplay on felucca is that what i prefer and i dont mean ganking other players or something like "player justice".
That must be it. I forgot the reason Tram was needed, it must have been because all the new people that Fel was attracting so we needed another land mass to hold them. I also see why so many EM events are held in Fel and all the people that attend them when they do. LMAO Fel ruleset would attract more people what a joke.
 

Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Maybe there was a time when a fel ruleset would have attracted more people but I think that time has passed. There are plenty of free shards with a fel ruleset that are doing fairly well, but the players who enjoy that are playing there. They don't need to play on official servers so why would they?
I personally think that the addition of Trammel was a knee-jerk reaction to the issues they were having at the time and it could have been done better. But they needed to act fast, Trammel is what they chose to do 20+ years ago and it seemed to work at the time.
 

tanotan

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
That must be it. I forgot the reason Tram was needed, it must have been because all the new people that Fel was attracting so we needed another land mass to hold them. I also see why so many EM events are held in Fel and all the people that attend them when they do. LMAO Fel ruleset would attract more people what a joke.
This is only your opinion and not proofen. Proof your statement pls. No, you can`t. Since 2001 UO has lost so many players. In former times most of the shards were full of players, but nowadays only atl has many players, because it is the shopping shard of all the remaining shards and many players have shard shields to x-fer to atl or buy x-fer tokens in the gameshop. Thats is the only thing that is proofen and your statement isn`t.
I didn`t want to know if you laugh your ass off, I just made a sugestion, what I would prefer for the upcoming events. An event like "go kill hundreds of mobs in that dungeon or in the next dungeon" makes me tired and its boring or an EM Event like "jump in this gate, kill mobs, then jump in the next gate, kill mobs and in the end kill that event boss in order to get an event rare (if you are lucky) makes me tired, too.
 

Jepeth

Seasoned Veteran
UNLEASHED
Proof your statement pls.
I can do this, actually!

With a little information gathering on LexisUni you can find the press releases from the early era of the game. I'll attach the three in question that I'm quoting from to this message.

From a February 24th, 2000 press release (i.e. from the company itself) in Business Wire entitled "Ultima Online Reaches 150,000 Paying Subscribers; Pioneering Virtual World Hits New Record; Electronic Arts and ORIGIN to Ship New Ultima Online Release in April" they say "The virtual fantasy world now has more than 150,000 paying customers." Later, they say "In April, ORIGIN will be releasing the latest retail update to UO, Ultima Online: Renaissance(tm). Renaissance will add new features to Ultima Online including the doubling of landmass in the fictional world of Britannia(tm). This will allow for safe zones where only consensual player vs. player combat will be allowed."

The key takeaway here is in February of 2000 right before Trammel hits we're at 150k players.

Fast forward to another press release in Business Wire on Novermber 10, 2000 (i.e. after Trammel has hit in May of 2000) entitled "EA's Ultima Online To Enter New Dimension; Ultima Online: Third Dawn to Feature 3-D Characters, New Lands and Monsters; Unveiling Takes Place at Inaugural UO World Faire" where they say "Third Dawn is the latest upgrade to the highly successful Ultima Online (UO) game, which currently boasts more than 200,000 active subscribers."

Key takeaway: there was not a mass exodus from Trammel hitting. In fact the game increased subscribers. But was this growth sustained in 2001 the following year?

The final Business Wire press release entitled "Todd McFarlane to Collaborate On New Version of Ultima Online; Ultima Online: Lord Blackthorn's Revenge to Feature More Than 30 New Monsters" is from the end of the year, October 31, 2001and says "Ultima Online has 225,000 subscribers and is played in more than 50 countries located in every time zone."

Final takeaway? Subscriber growth! Well after Trammel hit.

Don't believe the press releases from EA at the time? Let me end this with a quote from Raph Koster's blog:

"The other was called Trammel, and in Trammel, there simply wasn’t any ability to attack other players. It was a peaceful place. To this day, this is controversial. I wouldn’t have done it, personally, but there is no question that the userbase doubled once this went in."

That's a really interesting article. I think Raph beats himself and the company up a bit too much about their inability to solve the murder problem with the inelegant solution of the facet split.

But there is no historical basis in "trammel killed the game! The players will come back if Fel comes back!" As Pete said if there ever was a moment for that to return we're long since past it.
 

Attachments

tanotan

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I agree, ppl came to look at trammel, new facet, new rules and new monsters and then the number of players decreased slowly, on and on. I agree, that UO missed that moment for the players return. What a pity, but I look into the future. So why dont try an event with actual fel rule settings for some weeks? It is just a sugestion by myself. :)
It`s only an input for Kyronix, just an idea.
In germany you say: "No courage, no girls" :)
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
This is only your opinion and not proofen. Proof your statement pls. No, you can`t. Since 2001 UO has lost so many players. In former times most of the shards were full of players, but nowadays only atl has many players, because it is the shopping shard of all the remaining shards and many players have shard shields to x-fer to atl or buy x-fer tokens in the gameshop. Thats is the only thing that is proofen and your statement isn`t.
I didn`t want to know if you laugh your ass off, I just made a sugestion, what I would prefer for the upcoming events. An event like "go kill hundreds of mobs in that dungeon or in the next dungeon" makes me tired and its boring or an EM Event like "jump in this gate, kill mobs, then jump in the next gate, kill mobs and in the end kill that event boss in order to get an event rare (if you are lucky) makes me tired, too.
LMAO PROVE YOURS, you CAN"T and my proof is the reason Tram was created so to say people would return to UO with your suggestion was disproved over 20 years ago and mine was proven.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
I can do this, actually!

With a little information gathering on LexisUni you can find the press releases from the early era of the game. I'll attach the three in question that I'm quoting from to this message.

From a February 24th, 2000 press release (i.e. from the company itself) in Business Wire entitled "Ultima Online Reaches 150,000 Paying Subscribers; Pioneering Virtual World Hits New Record; Electronic Arts and ORIGIN to Ship New Ultima Online Release in April" they say "The virtual fantasy world now has more than 150,000 paying customers." Later, they say "In April, ORIGIN will be releasing the latest retail update to UO, Ultima Online: Renaissance(tm). Renaissance will add new features to Ultima Online including the doubling of landmass in the fictional world of Britannia(tm). This will allow for safe zones where only consensual player vs. player combat will be allowed."

The key takeaway here is in February of 2000 right before Trammel hits we're at 150k players.

Fast forward to another press release in Business Wire on Novermber 10, 2000 (i.e. after Trammel has hit in May of 2000) entitled "EA's Ultima Online To Enter New Dimension; Ultima Online: Third Dawn to Feature 3-D Characters, New Lands and Monsters; Unveiling Takes Place at Inaugural UO World Faire" where they say "Third Dawn is the latest upgrade to the highly successful Ultima Online (UO) game, which currently boasts more than 200,000 active subscribers."

Key takeaway: there was not a mass exodus from Trammel hitting. In fact the game increased subscribers. But was this growth sustained in 2001 the following year?

The final Business Wire press release entitled "Todd McFarlane to Collaborate On New Version of Ultima Online; Ultima Online: Lord Blackthorn's Revenge to Feature More Than 30 New Monsters" is from the end of the year, October 31, 2001and says "Ultima Online has 225,000 subscribers and is played in more than 50 countries located in every time zone."

Final takeaway? Subscriber growth! Well after Trammel hit.

Don't believe the press releases from EA at the time? Let me end this with a quote from Raph Koster's blog:

"The other was called Trammel, and in Trammel, there simply wasn’t any ability to attack other players. It was a peaceful place. To this day, this is controversial. I wouldn’t have done it, personally, but there is no question that the userbase doubled once this went in."

That's a really interesting article. I think Raph beats himself and the company up a bit too much about their inability to solve the murder problem with the inelegant solution of the facet split.

But there is no historical basis in "trammel killed the game! The players will come back if Fel comes back!" As Pete said if there ever was a moment for that to return we're long since past it.
And pre AoS it was est. that UO had 350K subs so tram brought in 200K and the reason Tram was created was to keep UO alive because Fel was not working

HOW MANY PEOPLE PLAY ULTIMA ONLINE?
We estimate that 10,982 people play per day, with a total player base of 385,349.

Ultima Online - MMO Populations & Player Counts
 

GarthGrey

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I've stuck to my word and have not returned to the official forums, but since ya'll are all up in this....ask Kyronix why he won't add more items to the merchant/dread/gargoyle ships. Arrows, bolts, cloth, feathers , and heartwood boards (no not logs, boards) are still not spawning. Merchant vessels should be carrying all of the goods of the day from port to port. Tell him to stop being a greedy D&D dungeon master from the 80s ,no one wants a +1 sword.
 

Cyrah

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I would be happyish IF the fantastic new fish did not die in the fish coffins. That art is astounding for UO. I begged him on TC, I think he laughed, ok secretly.
 

The Zog historian

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I didn`t mean the rulesetting of 2000 and before, I meant the actual felucca rules. So we have insurance and you can`t gate or recall into a fel dungeon in 2021. And pls don`t tell ppl your ancient knowledge. I play since 1998 and i know the old rules too.
And I've been playing since 1997. What's your point, besides e-peen measurement?

What I said stands. You didn't seem to know that originally we could gate into dungeons, hence my reply.
 

Anon McDougle

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
All y'all forget about the old days in your mom's basement we are old and achy we want to log and play in peace if we want dangerous life like stuff we know where it is but that's not why we play...
 

The Zog historian

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
There was certainly more emergent gameplay.
Sure you'd have pks gate into monsters and then mop up and loot corpses.
But you'd also have people who'd storm in and mop up the monsters AND pks.

There have been several games where unforgiving rulesets have thrived. The new gaming population has grown up and adapted.
Most "antis" had their own reds. The color they played at any given moment depended on who they were attacking, especially Greats versus Dreads at the Chaos Shrine (I always had to laugh at anyone who talked about the blues as predominantly good people administering "player justice"). When the reputation system debuted, some chose to macro off murder counts, but I still found it easier to have a couple of dedicated reds for attacking anyone. If anyone remembers Sonoma's DLS-oOo, one of the top rules was "No objection to going red."

UO would "adapt" by dying a quick death instead of its current slow one. For all the derision of Trammel as "Carebear land," it's the ruleset that most players wanted and still want. A lot of people would prefer not to play solo but do for a significant portion of their gameplay, and even when playing with a guild, they don't want to be fighting a tougher monster, then upon reaching low health, get ganked by a few stealthers or get e-fielded in.
 
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