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KYRONIX HAS ASKED FOR INPUT FOR THE NEXT EVENTS

The Zog historian

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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This is only your opinion and not proofen. Proof your statement pls. No, you can`t. Since 2001 UO has lost so many players. In former times most of the shards were full of players, but nowadays only atl has many players, because it is the shopping shard of all the remaining shards and many players have shard shields to x-fer to atl or buy x-fer tokens in the gameshop. Thats is the only thing that is proofen and your statement isn`t.
It's only natural that a game will lose subscriptions over time because of simple staleness. Yet the numbers show that UO's subscription increased after the facet split. The player base didn't increase despite Trammel, but because of it, and there was no way Malas would be anything but the "Carebear" ruleset. If you recall the old Stratics and Crossroads of Britannia threads about a PK switch, then you'd know a supermajority of the player base were tired of PKs and their obnoxious attitude. I ran briefly with one who bragged that he one-shotted someone with his pre-patch heavy crossbow. The victim ressed on the spot (big skill loss!) and asked why he did it, so he killed her again and told her she sucked. A lot of people were quitting UO with their last characters remaining ghosts.

Do you even remember why we had all the different shards in the first place? So as subscribers dwindled, what was the dev team to do, start consolidating them?

I didn`t want to know if you laugh your ass off, I just made a sugestion, what I would prefer for the upcoming events. An event like "go kill hundreds of mobs in that dungeon or in the next dungeon" makes me tired and its boring or an EM Event like "jump in this gate, kill mobs, then jump in the next gate, kill mobs and in the end kill that event boss in order to get an event rare (if you are lucky) makes me tired, too.
I reactivate because of the dungeon events. PvP is too much the same thing, and EM events on Sonoma get more abysmally conceived.
 

The Zog historian

Babbling Loonie
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I think the problem is not only about fell ruleset. It stretches much further than than in terms of activities which has decreased group play requirement.

These are just a few of many examples.
- VS/vendors/general chat (while convenient) made street peddlers less abundant. People would sit at banks and sell their stuff. Now they just put on vendors if spam general chat.

- Repair deeds, you used to have people sit at blacksmiths or tinkers or other craftsshops offering their repair services. The good craftsmen built names of being reputable and not stealing your ****.

There was a sense of wonder and mystery when not everything in UO was mapped out. It was fresh grounds to be explored and mechanics to be found.
Not everyone had time to seek out/wait for trusted smiths to do repairs, notwithstanding there have been lots of impersonators. Not everyone had time to sit at a bank and wait for someone to sell the right item. Repair deeds, chat, and vendor search greatly reduced search costs, minimizing the time people had to spend on what's really supplementary gameplay.
 

Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
Supporter
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For all the derision of Trammel as "Carebear land," it's the ruleset that most players wanted and still want.
I actually disagree with this. I don't think that most players want Trammel, it's just the part of the population that OSI decided to cater to way back when. The reason people think that Trammel is what most players want is because that is what we have. There is really no relevant content in fel aside from champ spawns and VvV (*pukes*) so the PvPers and fel players left.

To say most players want a Trammel playstyle is like opening a successful vegan restaurant, standing inside of it, and saying that most people are vegan. It's simply not true.
 

tanotan

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
@Stinky Pete : Thx for your answer, that`s what i wanted to say. Don`t know you Stinky Pete but thats really true, what you are writing in this thread.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
I actually disagree with this. I don't think that most players want Trammel, it's just the part of the population that OSI decided to cater to way back when. The reason people think that Trammel is what most players want is because that is what we have. There is really no relevant content in fel aside from champ spawns and VvV (*pukes*) so the PvPers and fel players left.

To say most players want a Trammel playstyle is like opening a successful vegan restaurant, standing inside of it, and saying that most people are vegan. It's simply not true.
Then why was everybody leaving UO and why did EA force UO/OSI to create Tram if there wasn't a problem? People were tired of the rampant PKs and OSI was forced to fix it ASAP.
 

Stinky Pete

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Then why was everybody leaving UO and why did EA force UO/OSI to create Tram if there wasn't a problem? People were tired of the rampant PKs and OSI was forced to fix it ASAP.
I never said there wasn't a problem. There definitely was. I'm just saying that creating Trammel wasn't the only way to fix it, likely just the fastest and easiest. I'll even admit that it worked. It doesn't mean that there was no other solution that would have worked without causing most Fel players to leave.

If they liked fel so much, why didn't they stay? Fel did not leave, the sheep did. They put new encounters in tram because no one was playing in fel.
There is no meaningful content in Fel aside from the afore mentioned champ spawns and VvV. They added insurance. They removed factions. You need content to keep the players happy. They basically removed everything from Fel that made it Fel which slowly caused players to either quit or go to Trammel. Fel players, whether they are PKs, thieves, or just people who like the added risk of PvP conflict, understand that their play style doesn't work without people.

As a Siege player it's really easy to see that any new content is "Trammel first." It is built and designed for PvM players in trammel and they try to stuff it into Fel or onto Siege with no consideration of whether it belongs there or not. When it doesn't work on Siege, they just remove it rather than considering how to make it work. They do the same thing in Fel on production shards, it's just not as noticeable because the rules are basically the same.

I don't blame them for doing it this way, the majority of players are definitely Trammel PvM players because that is the niche audience they cater to which is fine. I personally think that they should cater to the audience that they have and if I were in charge there, I probably would have dropped Fel from all the production shards by now so I didn't have to keep trying to appease two completely different player bases.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
I never said there wasn't a problem. There definitely was. I'm just saying that creating Trammel wasn't the only way to fix it, likely just the fastest and easiest. I'll even admit that it worked. It doesn't mean that there was no other solution that would have worked without causing most Fel players to leave.
Anything short of leaving UO the way it was was the only solution to keeping the PKers happy and a certain death to UO. Even a consensual PvP would still have led to the PKers leaving, 100% sheep is the only thing they wanted. More housing was also a good thing.
 

Stinky Pete

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Anything short of leaving UO the way it was was the only solution to keeping the PKers happy and a certain death to UO.
That's not true. There are examples of shards with healthy populations of PvPers/PKs and PvM players out there but I'm not allowed to name them here. It's just a matter of balance and it is difficult to achieve, but it is not impossible and has been done before.

Even though play style balance is possible, it is not necessary to try to appease everyone or achieve that balance. There is nothing wrong with catering to a niche group of players. The problems come when you try to cater to so many groups of players that you can't appease any of them which is where EA/OSI/BS made their biggest mistake... to my opinion.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
That's not true. There are examples of shards with healthy populations of PvPers/PKs and PvM players out there but I'm not allowed to name them here. It's just a matter of balance and it is difficult to achieve, but it is not impossible and has been done before.

Even though play style balance is possible, it is not necessary to try to appease everyone or achieve that balance. There is nothing wrong with catering to a niche group of players. The problems come when you try to cater to so many groups of players that you can't appease any of them which is where EA/OSI/BS made their biggest mistake... to my opinion.
I think it would have been hard to do with 150K players but we will never know.
 

petemage

Babbling Loonie
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There is no meaningful content in Fel aside from the afore mentioned champ spawns and VvV.
You mean "exclusive content"? You can do almost every bit of content in tram as well as in fel. You can train all your skills in fel. You can place houses and decorate them in fel. You can do trade quests in fel, you can dig tmaps, you can rent mangincia stalls, place vendors, etc. pp.

It is really a stretch to say there is no meaningful content in fel while many people enjoy that very same content - just by choice on the tram side and not the fel side.

Besides my house always being in fel, I never liked playing in fel much since everyone is pretty hostile there. I rather enjoyed working together with people or helping those in need instead of trying to fool and kill them. That's my main reason for enjoying tram content more than fel content. The people are simply more chill.

For the occasional thrill there was always a thief or PK in alliance to cause some tram havoc :D
 
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Keven2002

Babbling Loonie
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Even a consensual PvP would still have led to the PKers leaving, 100% sheep is the only thing they wanted. More housing was also a good thing.
When Trammel was first introduced (even according to the release notes from back then that were posted earlier) it was said to have "consensual PvP" which is exactly what they are saying for NL. That said... while I think initially there was still Order v Chaos fighting in Tram (I might be mistaken on this since it's been so long but I seem to remember fighting in Tram) there is literally zero PvP in Tram now unless you are guildies (even VvV doesn't matter in Tram). So... going based on this example I guess there won't actually be PvP on NL??
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
When Trammel was first introduced (even according to the release notes from back then that were posted earlier) it was said to have "consensual PvP" which is exactly what they are saying for NL. That said... while I think initially there was still Order v Chaos fighting in Tram (I might be mistaken on this since it's been so long but I seem to remember fighting in Tram) there is literally zero PvP in Tram now unless you are guildies (even VvV doesn't matter in Tram). So... going based on this example I guess there won't actually be PvP on NL??
Guild Wars and fighting among Guildies were the only way to fight other players in Tram
 

MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
Alumni
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Yes you are right we can still do it, the question was when we first split fel/tram and how we were able to still fight other players in tram.
You can far as I know still go to the arena's as well... if you want to fight. One vs One... or whatever. Far as I know. RP PvP was the PvP that I participated in quite a lot back in the day... even did faction junk in Fel. Though I found that was a waste of time and energy too many people cheated and scripted.
 

Anon McDougle

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
I asked one fierce PvP guild why they didn't war other guilds andvit was because they didn't want thier helpless crafters ganked..
 

gwen

Slightly Crazed
looks like all Fel-pvp people just forget where does gear come from . It is from PVM . Some people like this game and only play in Tram. Why you want to forbid them doing it?
Yes, I came to Fel during fire event and I am happy you can insure drops. I die often. Lots of pinks and PS were stolen or looted from me . Once Mag 120 scroll was stolen from me on a low populated Asian shard. So it is profitable there too for some guys. But I was Ok since I have drops. This was OK if some occasional PK team will show once per hour .
Sometimes they stay. So some whimps like me (who can only dismount and die) will go to Tram. Some will stay and fight. But nobody is getting drops. If drops will be cursed nobody will get them at all. Why bother killing Para Balron when you can just kill 50% health samphire fighting that balron ?
There are some ideas like "make killing pk drop arties" . Have you guys thought about what will happen ? People will just gank their alts 24/7 .
And yes, I liked this event very much. I got lots of stuff . Lots of gold from selling it and many items I thought I will never afford them. Even with 0 (zero) useful drops for me personally it made me happy.
 

petemage

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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looks like all Fel-pvp people just forget where does gear come from . It is from PVM . Some people like this game and only play in Tram. Why you want to forbid them doing it?
They would rather gank the pvm players 5 vs 1 and just take the loot instead of paying for it. Some pvpers are just delusional as hell.
 

tanotan

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
fel is so nasty, fel-people are so nasty, meeeeh, i cry rivers, if fel would be evrywhere, most of the people would quit playing UO, whine. Pls let my miner live, if not I quit playing. People are so nasty in fel..... only pk around, meeeeh

Thats the thread here and its a shame. Go back to topic.
 
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gwen

Slightly Crazed
fel is so nasty, fel-people are so nasty, meeeeh, i cry rivers, if fel would be evrywhere, most of the people would quit playing UO, whine. Pls let my miner live, if not I quit playing. People are so nasty in fel..... only pk around, meeeeh

Thats the thread here and its a shame. Go back to topic.
When they do come and gank me after I finished champ to get scrolls - it is OK and reasonable. Clearing spawn place for own guild to come and do it - reasonable too. My miner (I don't mine much) was killed only once. In passage to DeLuca , some VvV mob came in fighting each other and killed me. Who cares ? But I do care when I at lvl 2 of spawn in abyss and some **** comes and kills me and waiting for me to do res kill. Not doing spawn. Not doing it 30 min later.

Going back to topic - I'd like to see some offhand stuff with no chance to parry but with SSI or DI , my thrower will love it. My maul macer too (she has Bushido).
Also I want to have cut versions of previous events overpowered stuff : like 5% SSI Epps 10% SSI Epps (no stam) ; receipe for blessable bandage belt (with no HP regen) ; 5SSI talisman (no slayer). Also before I asked for robes and boots to be included in drops . @Kyronix said it is not feasible

Something for crafter:
there are pickaxes and Smith hammers "of wildfire" . Pity you cannot mine or craft or chop from tree with axe some special stuff. Skin mobs in dungeon for wildfire leather with wildfire skinning knife may be...
Allow gargish cloth drops to be cut for special hue cloth.

Bard instruments "of wildfire "
Paragon slayer talisman (with double damage to paragons and double to you from all non -paragon)?
 

The Zog historian

Babbling Loonie
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UNLEASHED
I actually disagree with this. I don't think that most players want Trammel, it's just the part of the population that OSI decided to cater to way back when. The reason people think that Trammel is what most players want is because that is what we have.
They catered to that "part of the population" simply because it was the overwhelming supermajority of the population. Don't act like Trammel was UO's New Coke when it's what saved the game from dying to the likes of EQ and Diablo II.

To say most players want a Trammel playstyle is like opening a successful vegan restaurant, standing inside of it, and saying that most people are vegan. It's simply not true.
If you're correct, then why did UO subscriptions increase after the facet split, and why prior to the split were so many newer players quitting in frustration over PKs? You don't seem to have been around for all the old Stratics/CoB threads. I can't find the screenshot right now, but I was part of the reason that Seers stopped doing any events in Felucca (at least on Sonoma). Whatever the quest was, once a few friends and I heard it was at the hedge maze, we went in and slaughtered everybody. We hated the Seer that much. Do you really think contemporary EM events would go at all well under Fel rulesets, with people's PvM characters dropping like flies, and PvPers fighting each other over the drops?

To use your analogy, it was actually like establishing a strictly non-smoking section in a prix fixe restaurant, carefully sealed off so other patrons couldn't deliberately bother non-smokers by blowing smoke in the latter's faces. Also, other patrons couldn't just grab your order, claiming "It's allowed and we're paying the same money you are." That was the excuse of old: "We're paying the same for our accounts and can play however we want."

There is really no relevant content in fel aside from champ spawns and VvV (*pukes*) so the PvPers and fel players left.
Whoever left is because so-called "PvPers" burned themselves out, and or got old enough to be too busy with RL and families. I and many others got tired of the same old moongate gankfests, and there's no longer sufficient fun defending or raiding champ spawns.

VvV was poorly designed, but how much of the total player base left because of it?
 

The Zog historian

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I never said there wasn't a problem. There definitely was. I'm just saying that creating Trammel wasn't the only way to fix it, likely just the fastest and easiest. I'll even admit that it worked. It doesn't mean that there was no other solution that would have worked without causing most Fel players to leave.
Then what would have been your solution to add land for housing as well as prevent griefing? UO needed a PvP switch at minimum, and it may not have been easier to create a duplicate land mass, but it also solved the problem of the space scarcity.

There is no meaningful content in Fel aside from the afore mentioned champ spawns and VvV. They added insurance. They removed factions. You need content to keep the players happy. They basically removed everything from Fel that made it Fel which slowly caused players to either quit or go to Trammel. Fel players, whether they are PKs, thieves, or just people who like the added risk of PvP conflict, understand that their play style doesn't work without people.
Insurance wasn't added until well after the facet split, you know. I don't know if its original implementation would have made a difference, because killing other player would have still been profitable. Yet had item insurance been introduced in lieu of a PvP switch, non-PvP types would have still been too frustrated at losing time.

I'll expand my previous question: how much of the total player base left because of a lack of "PvP" content?

If the "excitement" of being attacked by a PK is so desirable, why do almost all players not go dungeon-hunting in Fel? Like a lot of posters wrote at the time: so-called "PvPers" would have to learn to fight each other, rather than grief someone already fighting a monster, or running into a trap. If you were around for the "Shadow of Virtue" Ricardo quest, a big mistake was having one location in Felucca. UO was busy enough on most shards that lots of non-PvPers were nothing less than pigeons being brought to the cat.

As a Siege player
There we have it again. You like Siege. Nobody's forcing you to leave it.

it's really easy to see that any new content is "Trammel first." It is built and designed for PvM players in trammel and they try to stuff it into Fel or onto Siege with no consideration of whether it belongs there or not. When it doesn't work on Siege, they just remove it rather than considering how to make it work. They do the same thing in Fel on production shards, it's just not as noticeable because the rules are basically the same.
Because as I and others have pointed out, most players want to fight the game environment, not other players. Don't cite BS' inability to flesh out their mediocre ideas as the reason to force everyone into non-consensual "PvP" rulesets.

I don't blame them for doing it this way, the majority of players are definitely Trammel PvM players because that is the niche audience they cater to which is fine. I personally think that they should cater to the audience that they have and if I were in charge there, I probably would have dropped Fel from all the production shards by now so I didn't have to keep trying to appease two completely different player bases.
In your own words, BS is doing exactly that: catering to the majority of players, who were already the majority before the facet split.
 

The Zog historian

Babbling Loonie
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That's not true. There are examples of shards with healthy populations of PvPers/PKs and PvM players out there but I'm not allowed to name them here. It's just a matter of balance and it is difficult to achieve, but it is not impossible and has been done before.

Even though play style balance is possible, it is not necessary to try to appease everyone or achieve that balance. There is nothing wrong with catering to a niche group of players. The problems come when you try to cater to so many groups of players that you can't appease any of them which is where EA/OSI/BS made their biggest mistake... to my opinion.
What is the actual quantification of "healthy"? Healthy enough for someone to keep a shard running? Healthy enough to keep the commercial version of the game profitable?

Businesses can increase profitability by satisfying more desires of some customers, but they maximize profitability by satisfying the desires of their biggest revenue source. For UO, that's the type of player who wants to recall to in front of a house and not worry about a dozen PKs hidden, hence why careful players prior to Trammel never carried house runes and house keys on them, recalled to a screen or two away, and set up "courtyard" houses when space and gold permitted.

UO has some problems (my big one is bugs going unfixed), but a lack of non-consensual PvP is not one of them.
 

gwen

Slightly Crazed
UO has some problems (my big one is bugs going unfixed), but a lack of non-consensual PvP is not one of them.
Any software has bugs. I think more important is that we get no reply in a bug section of the official forum. And no avaliable list of bugs confirmed, pending and will be solved.
If "it is not a bug , but a feature" - so they should describe it for everyone to use it or be aware.
They cannot even tidy up all damage descriptions (DI , bonus , modifier) in the game and on their official Wiki.
Even PVP you mentioned has so many undocumented things so Fel is real trouble for a noob.
 

Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
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@The Zog historian

I agree with much of what you said, maybe all of it. My point is that a lot of people seem to think that Trammel was the only solution and that is not the case. You may not believe it, but non-consensual PvP can be enjoyable if done correctly, but the majority of the players have never experienced it. I certainly don't blame EA for adding Trammel, it was likely the right thing to do at the time from a business perspective.

Thanks to free shards, everyone can be happy. People can pretty much play by whatever rules they like. The unfortunate thing is that so many people will never get to experience playing on any other shard because they can't imagine a world where they don't have all their pixel junk, so they continue to be miserable and whine about all the problems that these official shards present.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
@The Zog historian

I agree with much of what you said, maybe all of it. My point is that a lot of people seem to think that Trammel was the only solution and that is not the case. You may not believe it, but non-consensual PvP can be enjoyable if done correctly, but the majority of the players have never experienced it. I certainly don't blame EA for adding Trammel, it was likely the right thing to do at the time from a business perspective.

Thanks to free shards, everyone can be happy. People can pretty much play by whatever rules they like. The unfortunate thing is that so many people will never get to experience playing on any other shard because they can't imagine a world where they don't have all their pixel junk, so they continue to be miserable and whine about all the problems that these official shards present.
I have experienced non-consensual PvP and I did NOT enjoy it, it was called forced PvP while out doing resource gathering and I had no choice. So how is that enjoyable when it was non-stop on every shard. When I chose to play SP I know I can and most likely will die but notice the word chose, pre-Tram there was NO choice and the PKers killed it for all. Yes there were and still are honorable PvPers but the vast majority were nothing more than thugs out to destroy your enjoyment.
 

Stinky Pete

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I have experienced non-consensual PvP and I did NOT enjoy it, it was called forced PvP while out doing resource gathering and I had no choice. So how is that enjoyable when it was non-stop on every shard. When I chose to play SP I know I can and most likely will die but notice the word chose, pre-Tram there was NO choice and the PKers killed it for all. Yes there were and still are honorable PvPers but the vast majority were nothing more than thugs out to destroy your enjoyment.
"PvP can be enjoyable if done correctly" is what I said. Being done correctly is the missing element from your experience.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
"PvP can be enjoyable if done correctly" is what I said. Being done correctly is the missing element from your experience.
So how would you do it "correctly" when in Fel there is no choice. The honor system and player justice system failed totally so what new system could you install to do this.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Diablo and UO grew up together. Both had to stop non consensual PvP. One chose a button so nothing else had to change. Both are still around.
 

gwen

Slightly Crazed
"PvP can be enjoyable if done correctly" is what I said. Being done correctly is the missing element from your experience.
I have no idea how can I enjoy it being unprepared (I prepare for killing mobs) against somebody who is experienced and geared up just to gank my 130 hp pvm one-week-on-shard character in several blows? Or in one blow if Im fighting a mob?
Where is the joy in walking long way to get ressed? Thinking that some guy with top gear suit wanted my 25k insurance fee? May be there is some entertaininment in being reskiled? I never found it.
Being in TRAM I don't go to lots of places where I know I will be instantly killed. like Slasher. I do what I can and enjoy it.
My only joy in pvp was making gold selling forged pardons or seeds (which are really boring to farm).
 

Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
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So how would you do it "correctly" when in Fel there is no choice. The honor system and player justice system failed totally so what new system could you install to do this.
I'm glad you asked.

**Disclaimer**

I originally felt bad continuing this thread since it has strayed so far off of the original topic, which is probably at least partially my fault, but since it has been allowed to wander this far without issue or insult there's probably no harm in answering your question. Understand that I have seen some of these systems implemented and working among the various free shards that I have played. My play style doesn't revolve around items or anything that can bind me to one shard so I can often switch shards without consequence. I do realize that I am in the vast minority with my play style and I don't expect anyone to play like I do or change their preference of how they play. So I'll just get right into it:

First off, the fundamental dungeon designs are nothing more than a death trap for PvM players. Many of them only have one entrance or exit and the ones with multiple exits have their exit on the lower levels. So if you want to escape, you are left with no choice but to run past PKs that enter the dungeon or to run deeper into the dungeon where you might fall victim to more difficult mobs that you were not prepared to fight ultimately leaving you to the same fate either way. I would say that there should be at least one means of escape on each level of every dungeon besides the entry point. You also would not be able to recall and gate to or from dungeon interiors because that could be used to undermine the afore mentioned system.

Secondly, There needs to be real consequences for murdering players. The system we have now is just a joke. There is almost no consequence for being red. Does anyone care about murder counts? Not when you can eat a pardon and they're all gone. You need to make it so that the PK has to seriously debate whether killing a player is worth the penalty, be it stat loss, gold loss, jail time, etc. There is a shard out there where each long term count means you have to pay x amount of gold every time you are rezzed, and I believe it is a considerable amount. So those 8 rez kills you did when you totally "pwned that noob" came with a hefty price and no benefit.

And lastly, since you brought up the totally failed justice system, which I agree is more of an exploit to get more scrolls than anything. I have seen some very clever bounty systems employed. A murderer should feel hunted, players should be rewarded for protecting their fellow player. What better way to do that than a bounty system? Have a system where you can sign up for alerts and occasionally you get an alert that says "nEwB pWnEr has entered shame" or something so that an army of anti-PKs can show up to protect the masses.

So there are all kinds of things that can be done to make non-consensual PvP better for everyone but the griefers. I know it's hard for Trammies to understand that most PKs aren't really there to grief, they're only there to reap the rewards of their chosen play style. Once those rewards are systematically taken away like they have been, griefing is all that is left. I also promise you that there are a lot of people out there that don't mind the occasional death by PK, you just don't see them here because they are on shards where systems like the ones I mentioned are in place. I understand that some just want to sit back and farm without consequence, but in my opinion, that defeats the purpose of playing in a sandbox world with many other players. Occasional heart-pounding action, I believe, would be a benefit to most players and Trammel took that away from them whether they know it or not.
 

Anon McDougle

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
I'm gonna agree with the stinky one being red should be terrible like get guard wacked you're deleted terrible if you're red all your characters go grey .. and guards should be patrolling dungeons ready to wack reds ...make it so blues can hire guards to protect themselves...
 

petemage

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I know it's hard for Trammies to understand that most PKs aren't really there to grief, they're only there to reap the rewards of their chosen play style. Once those rewards are systematically taken away like they have been, griefing is all that is left.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "rewards" a bit further please? If you are referring to taking artifacts or powerscrolls from those that actually worked the spawn or killed the boss for them, I don't think a PK should get those as a reward.

I also promise you that there are a lot of people out there that don't mind the occasional death by PK, you just don't see them here because they are on shards where systems like the ones I mentioned are in place. I understand that some just want to sit back and farm without consequence, but in my opinion, that defeats the purpose of playing in a sandbox world with many other players. Occasional heart-pounding action, I believe, would be a benefit to most players and Trammel took that away from them whether they know it or not.
Getting killed is not much a problem for me at all. But I don't agree the PK should get the loot I earned.

That's the main reason I don't enjoy UO PvP. On top of it UO literally has basically no rules and well known and easy accessible cheat tools.

I enjoy PvP in Fallout 76, in GTAO, in Star Trek online, in various Battle Royal games, etc. pp. Only in those games we PvP for the fun of it.

There is a lot of heart-pounding action there - without the need to grab stuff that someone else spent an hour or two grinding for. I think that's something UO PvPers have a hard time understanding. Nobody likes wasting their playtime for someone else to just steal your rewards. It's the major pain in UO. Many other games do that better and have bigger PvP communities.

Trammies would do fel champ spawns 24/7 if powerscrolls were blessed. PKs could kill me 10 times in the process - I couldnt care less as long as I keep my powerscroll at the end. Should be a win-win. But in my experience, many PvPers where not interested in actual fights. They just wanted the loot and were never seen after it.

After all I think PvP in UO is a dead end. To make it enjoyable, basically half of what it ever was would have to be removed or changed. It's not going to happen. It's going to stay the very niche activity it is for those - in contrast to me - actually enjoying it under the current ruleset.
 
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Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "rewards" a bit further please? If you are referring to taking artifacts or powerscrolls from those that actually worked the spawn or killed the boss for them, I don't think a PK should get those as a reward.
I don't see an issue with those being the rewards provided the risk to obtain them is high enough. If you know there is a gang of anti-PKs on the way because they were alerted to you entering the dungeon, you aren't going to stand by and watch some PvMers mop up a champ spawn, you're going to come in, assess the situation quickly, and either kill them and loot your rewards or bail. It's just a matter of balance.

You are correct though, as it is, the reward from PKing far outweighs the risk and the time to grind to get a reward is too much to lose. Things like champs should take maybe 20 minutes tops and the reward should be maybe one or two scrolls. That way if you die, it's not a major loss. The way it is now is just another failed system designed for Trammies and shoved into Fel where it doesn't belong. The #1 rule of Fel is "don't carry more than you are willing to lose," and 6 - 12 powerscrolls is more than most people are willing to lose.

make it so blues can hire guards to protect themselves...
I really like this idea, I'm pretty sure that was the idea behind the current justice system. It was just poorly implemented and is now just a big exploit that everyone knows about and uses.
 

Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
get guard wacked you're deleted
Funny you should mention that. I was playing a shard with player initiated permadeath for a while. It was a pretty cool concept that I thought I would like but it actually made the whole shard the biggest carebear festival the world has ever seen. Having to rebuild a character pretty much every time you lose a PvP fight meant that nobody wanted to do anything that could get them killed.
 

HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
I'm glad you asked.

**Disclaimer**

I originally felt bad continuing this thread since it has strayed so far off of the original topic, which is probably at least partially my fault, but since it has been allowed to wander this far without issue or insult there's probably no harm in answering your question. Understand that I have seen some of these systems implemented and working among the various free shards that I have played. My play style doesn't revolve around items or anything that can bind me to one shard so I can often switch shards without consequence. I do realize that I am in the vast minority with my play style and I don't expect anyone to play like I do or change their preference of how they play. So I'll just get right into it:

First off, the fundamental dungeon designs are nothing more than a death trap for PvM players. Many of them only have one entrance or exit and the ones with multiple exits have their exit on the lower levels. So if you want to escape, you are left with no choice but to run past PKs that enter the dungeon or to run deeper into the dungeon where you might fall victim to more difficult mobs that you were not prepared to fight ultimately leaving you to the same fate either way. I would say that there should be at least one means of escape on each level of every dungeon besides the entry point. You also would not be able to recall and gate to or from dungeon interiors because that could be used to undermine the afore mentioned system.

Secondly, There needs to be real consequences for murdering players. The system we have now is just a joke. There is almost no consequence for being red. Does anyone care about murder counts? Not when you can eat a pardon and they're all gone. You need to make it so that the PK has to seriously debate whether killing a player is worth the penalty, be it stat loss, gold loss, jail time, etc. There is a shard out there where each long term count means you have to pay x amount of gold every time you are rezzed, and I believe it is a considerable amount. So those 8 rez kills you did when you totally "pwned that noob" came with a hefty price and no benefit.

And lastly, since you brought up the totally failed justice system, which I agree is more of an exploit to get more scrolls than anything. I have seen some very clever bounty systems employed. A murderer should feel hunted, players should be rewarded for protecting their fellow player. What better way to do that than a bounty system? Have a system where you can sign up for alerts and occasionally you get an alert that says "nEwB pWnEr has entered shame" or something so that an army of anti-PKs can show up to protect the masses.

So there are all kinds of things that can be done to make non-consensual PvP better for everyone but the griefers. I know it's hard for Trammies to understand that most PKs aren't really there to grief, they're only there to reap the rewards of their chosen play style. Once those rewards are systematically taken away like they have been, griefing is all that is left. I also promise you that there are a lot of people out there that don't mind the occasional death by PK, you just don't see them here because they are on shards where systems like the ones I mentioned are in place. I understand that some just want to sit back and farm without consequence, but in my opinion, that defeats the purpose of playing in a sandbox world with many other players. Occasional heart-pounding action, I believe, would be a benefit to most players and Trammel took that away from them whether they know it or not.
WOW It was a good read until you threw the Trammies remark so you system is a total FAIL.
 

Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
WOW It was a good read until you threw the Trammies remark so you system is a total FAIL.
My apologies, I use the term "trammies" not to insult but as an easily recognizable all encompassing word to describe people who prefer to play a trammel rule set.
 

Anon McDougle

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
The perma death would only come from killing innocents i would think dueling and ways to have group fights would be needed i also think champ spawn areas contain no innocent people..
 

gwen

Slightly Crazed
I'm glad you asked.

**Disclaimer**

I originally felt bad continuing this thread since it has strayed so far off of the original topic, which is probably at least partially my fault, but since it has been allowed to wander this far without issue or insult there's probably no harm in answering your question. Understand that I have seen some of these systems implemented and working among the various free shards that I have played. My play style doesn't revolve around items or anything that can bind me to one shard so I can often switch shards without consequence. I do realize that I am in the vast minority with my play style and I don't expect anyone to play like I do or change their preference of how they play. So I'll just get right into it:

First off, the fundamental dungeon designs are nothing more than a death trap for PvM players. Many of them only have one entrance or exit and the ones with multiple exits have their exit on the lower levels. So if you want to escape, you are left with no choice but to run past PKs that enter the dungeon or to run deeper into the dungeon where you might fall victim to more difficult mobs that you were not prepared to fight ultimately leaving you to the same fate either way. I would say that there should be at least one means of escape on each level of every dungeon besides the entry point. You also would not be able to recall and gate to or from dungeon interiors because that could be used to undermine the afore mentioned system.

Secondly, There needs to be real consequences for murdering players. The system we have now is just a joke. There is almost no consequence for being red. Does anyone care about murder counts? Not when you can eat a pardon and they're all gone. You need to make it so that the PK has to seriously debate whether killing a player is worth the penalty, be it stat loss, gold loss, jail time, etc. There is a shard out there where each long term count means you have to pay x amount of gold every time you are rezzed, and I believe it is a considerable amount. So those 8 rez kills you did when you totally "pwned that noob" came with a hefty price and no benefit.

And lastly, since you brought up the totally failed justice system, which I agree is more of an exploit to get more scrolls than anything. I have seen some very clever bounty systems employed. A murderer should feel hunted, players should be rewarded for protecting their fellow player. What better way to do that than a bounty system? Have a system where you can sign up for alerts and occasionally you get an alert that says "nEwB pWnEr has entered shame" or something so that an army of anti-PKs can show up to protect the masses.

So there are all kinds of things that can be done to make non-consensual PvP better for everyone but the griefers. I know it's hard for Trammies to understand that most PKs aren't really there to grief, they're only there to reap the rewards of their chosen play style. Once those rewards are systematically taken away like they have been, griefing is all that is left. I also promise you that there are a lot of people out there that don't mind the occasional death by PK, you just don't see them here because they are on shards where systems like the ones I mentioned are in place. I understand that some just want to sit back and farm without consequence, but in my opinion, that defeats the purpose of playing in a sandbox world with many other players. Occasional heart-pounding action, I believe, would be a benefit to most players and Trammel took that away from them whether they know it or not.
My solutions :
1- if I have somebody protecting me - let him and PK who killed me be instant teleported to some arena where they can deal with each other. You want free power scrolls - avenge my death, please.
2- how many murder counts you have - this many insurances will fail when you are dead.
3- guardwacked - loose one insured item.

Fail of pvp system is there are no reasons to hunt PK now (red or grey and moreover if he turned blue ) . To get virtue points just kill your alt red and you are good.
 

Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Now y'all are getting it! Plenty of fun and creative ideas in here that don't involve killing entire play styles. Maybe y'all aren't as "Trammy" as you thought you were. It's too bad devs didn't have the time to be as creative as y'all are when they made the split.
 

gwen

Slightly Crazed
Now y'all are getting it! Plenty of fun and creative ideas in here that don't involve killing entire play styles. Maybe y'all aren't as "Trammy" as you thought you were. It's too bad devs didn't have the time to be as creative as y'all are when they made the split.
And one more thing : if I was killed (especially by blue who just was fighting this boss with me) give me transferable and sellable hunting permit for that person. That will be a funny market. So next time he can be killed same way (having 50% HP killing a champion) with no consequences. Anywhere including Tram (like VvV).
Give me a choice : murder count on him or such a ticket.
 

Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
And one more thing : if I was killed (especially by blue who just was fighting this boss with me) give me transferable and sellable hunting permit for that person. That will be a funny market. So next time he can be killed same way (having 50% HP killing a champion) with no consequences. Anywhere including Tram (like VvV).
Give me a choice : murder count on him or such a ticket.
That is a really cool idea, kind of like a bounty system. With systems like this and a few others you wouldn't even need Trammel and being PKed could be a somewhat enjoyable experience for both parties win or lose. I believe that most players (Trammies, PKs, and PvPers alike) would prefer that to the two facets that are constantly breaking each other.

So I stand behind my original statements:
PvP can be enjoyable if done correctly
And:
I don't think that most players want Trammel, it's just the part of the population that OSI decided to cater to way back when.
There is a balance that can be struck it just takes time and creativity to do it. Unfortunately, I feel that anything that takes creativity is never coming to the official shards. Maybe there is hope for New Legacy but I'm not holding my breath. Consensual PvP only is a bit of a deal breaker for me and I'm certain many others.

Edit: Formatting
 
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HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
That is a really cool idea, kind of like a bounty system. With systems like this and a few others you wouldn't even need Trammel and being PKed could be a somewhat enjoyable experience for both parties win or lose. I believe that most players (Trammies, PKs, and PvPers alike) would prefer that to the two facets that are constantly breaking each other.

So I stand behind my original statements:

And:


There is a balance that can be struck it just takes time and creativity to do it. Unfortunately, I feel that anything that takes creativity is never coming to the official shards. Maybe there is hope for New Legacy but I'm not holding my breath. Consensual PvP only is a bit of a deal breaker for me and I'm certain many others.

Edit: Formatting
Most players did want Tram and after 20 years it is to late for the way back machine. Now from what I understand is the new project will be one land and it will be consensual PvP so we shale see how many people switch that switch for PvP and how many do not. My bet is very few will flip it and half of the ones that do flip it will flip it back because of the PKers and all of their **** talk when they killed you. Yes I remember those days very well and I do not want to relive them. A lot of people who you would never expect to be raging *******s come out when they have that computer screen protecting them and we wondered why the PKers were so damn rude and drove away so many players. I enjoyed honorable PvP but that aspect of the game has been long gone and my proof is just log on any day of the week and list to all the **** talk on Atl shard, it is discussing.
 

Stinky Pete

Babbling Loonie
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Most players did want Tram and after 20 years it is to late for the way back machine.
No, most players wanted an end to the griefing, Trammel is just the solution they got. You are absolutely right that it's too late to go back.
My bet is very few will flip it and half of the ones that do flip it will flip it back because of the PKers and all of their **** talk when they killed you.
I agree that very few will flip it as well but I think that the ones who flip it back will be because they see that there is little to no benefit for flipping it on. I mean, flipping a switch for PvP is probably the least creative way to handle it, I certainly don't expect them to come up with a creative reason for why you would want to toggle it on. As far as the **** talk goes, I assume most players can use the ignore button built into their brain to ignore it. I also believe that the reason there is so much **** talk is because there is nothing to fight for but bragging rights a.k.a **** talk. I know that even if there was something to fight for people would still say dumb stuff, but the fact that that's the only "reward" there is for killing someone these days can't make it any better.
 

gwen

Slightly Crazed
That is a really cool idea, kind of like a bounty system. With systems like this and a few others you wouldn't even need Trammel and being PKed could be a somewhat enjoyable experience for both parties win or lose. I believe that most players (Trammies, PKs, and PvPers alike) would prefer that to the two facets that are constantly breaking each other.
Edit: Formatting
Like this idea - feel free to post it on off forum which I cannot access at this time.

More about this
If collected 5 hunting permits (or 10, 20 , whatever) you can (using Forensics) make one big permit valid for all toons on this account. Like Amalgamator.
Using Tracking will tell you if player is online and (with higher level permits) where he is. So those 2 useless skills can be brought to life in a way.

Being an owtlaw should have consequences, and something good for bounty hunters. Like rare chance of outlaw insured /blessed gear to spawn in Hunter's backpack after killing. Or murder count to be percentage of chance that insurance /bless on one of your items will fail?
This will push rich PVP guys to use less expensive gear for raids, and give chance and reasons for blue sampire to retaliate or scare them away. Or for helpers to arrive.
As I said before, I am not PVP person, so you look more experienced in this and have right to choose what to state and what is BS.
 

petemage

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Now from what I understand is the new project will be one land and it will be consensual PvP so we shale see how many people switch that switch for PvP and how many do not. My bet is very few will flip it and half of the ones that do flip it will flip it back because of the PKers and all of their **** talk when they killed you.
Mesanna already said there will be scripters and cheaters and they don't think they can do much about it. Just like it is on prodo with IDOC multiboxers not getting touched as long as the accounts are paid. It will be the same you see on prodo right now. Everything else is just wishful thinking.

Apart from all that, I doubt they even have a clear idea how they will make consensual PvP work on NL. I wouldn't be suprised if they release NL without PvP at all and just say "coming soon".
 
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HRH Liz

Lore Master
UNLEASHED
Mesanna already said there will be scripters and cheaters and they don't think they can do much about it. Just like it is on prodo with IDOC multiboxers not getting touched as long as the accounts are paid. It will be the same you see on prodo right now. Everything else is just wishful thinking.

Apart from all that, I doubt they even have a clear idea how they will make consensual PvP work on NL. I wouldn't be suprised if they release NL without PvP at all and just say "coming soon".
LMAO Messana never said there was going to be scripters and cheaters, you are full of ****.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
LMAO Messana never said there was going to be scripters and cheaters, you are full of ****.
She basically said that. With keyboards and gaming pads that have macros. She knows she can not stop that kind of stuff. They will do what they do now to stop it.
 
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