KYRONIX HAS ASKED FOR INPUT FOR THE NEXT EVENTS

[petemage]

LMAO Messana never said there was going to be scripters and cheaters, you are full of ****.

Sure she did And once it's out, you will see for yourself.

 

[Laura_Gold]

current justice system. It was just poorly implemented and is now just a big exploit

Yup. It was also inconsistent.

Exploit: Abusing a character on a second account is the way that folks are gaining the justice virtue, so Justice is a reward for spending Real Money on a second account. That's in immersion killer, isn't it.
Inconsistent: killing ANY red-named character or monster should increase justice for the one who does the killing. Don't like this, @Kyronix? Don't make so many things be red-named then.

 

[gwen]

Yup. It was also inconsistent.

Exploit: Abusing a character on a second account is the way that folks are gaining the justice virtue, so Justice is a reward for spending Real Money on a second account. That's in immersion killer, isn't it.
Inconsistent: killing ANY red-named character or monster should increase justice for the one who does the killing. Don't like this, @Kyronix? Don't make so many things be red-named then.

This is why no rewards for PVP during event are possible. People will just mass -abuse their own Alta instead of killing mobs. Same why all VvV rewards are made antique.
But let's return to the OP topic, Ok ?

Before @Kyronix mentioned they can track all reward claimed. I wanna check how many of each were claimed on different shards.

 

[Pawain]

Before @Kyronix mentioned they can track all reward claimed. I wanna check how many of each were claimed on different shards.

Other games give stats to the player base. How many Para Balrons were killed etc would be interesting to know. Just something easy that would create dialog.

 

[Anon McDougle]

Other games give stats to the player base. How many Para Balrons were killed etc would be interesting to know. Just something easy that would create dialog.

That one year with brit invasion the statues they put up had monster counts didn't it?

 

[Pawain]

That one year with brit invasion the statues they put up had monster counts didn't it?

Still do. And city stones have the trade run count.

So we know some things are counted.

 

[The Zog historian]

No, most players wanted an end to the griefing, Trammel is just the solution they got. You are absolutely right that it's too late to go back.

A new non-free-for-all landmass served both purposes. Was it a perfect solution? No, and it was not perfectly implemented (God knows the Great Trammel Land Rush was FUBAR with telestorming), but as a whole, the facet split nonetheless pleased many more non-griefer players than the "PvP" types who quit. Every time a "PvP" type complained on Stratics or CoB that he or his guild was quitting, the responses were overwhelmingly consistent: "We're not going to miss you, bye!"

I myself never had a problem with the solution, only the implementation, but it was far better than the status quo. On most shards, you couldn't even hit the Cove orc fort without getting ganked, and the griefers recalling out before any chance to fight them. That's why I use quotes to describe those self-professed "PvP" types. If they wanted a fair fight, they wouldn't have been playing that way. Now I did a little dungeon raiding in the early days of UO. I had a master archer and a ready supply of my own GM-made bows. But I found it much more satisfying to kill the PKs who were looking for easy pickings.

I agree that very few will flip it as well but I think that the ones who flip it back will be because they see that there is little to no benefit for flipping it on. I mean, flipping a switch for PvP is probably the least creative way to handle it, I certainly don't expect them to come up with a creative reason for why you would want to toggle it on. As far as the **** talk goes, I assume most players can use the ignore button built into their brain to ignore it. I also believe that the reason there is so much **** talk is because there is nothing to fight for but bragging rights a.k.a **** talk. I know that even if there was something to fight for people would still say dumb stuff, but the fact that that's the only "reward" there is for killing someone these days can't make it any better.

A true PvP switch would not have been hard to implement, no doubt not perfectly at first, but very doable. Wherever a character was, if it was blue, it could be attacked only by green and orange.

Even Trammel's original "consent" code wasn't perfect. The original flag must have been something like "If blue attacks blue, no, all else is allowed," i.e. green and orange could attack each other, but the devs forgot red attacking blue. Old-time Sonomans might remember Keys, who was incredibly stupid to have his Counselor friend teleport his red into Trammel. Keys found out he could attack blues, and I don't know how many counts he racked up, but he got reported and was banned immediately. It took years, though, for the old DLS tower outside Skara to finally decay.

 

[The Zog historian]

I agree with much of what you said, maybe all of it. My point is that a lot of people seem to think that Trammel was the only solution and that is not the case. You may not believe it, but non-consensual PvP can be enjoyable if done correctly, but the majority of the players have never experienced it. I certainly don't blame EA for adding Trammel, it was likely the right thing to do at the time from a business perspective.

Is the part I bolded like the claim that communism has never been practiced correctly, and people just haven't experienced it?

As Liz pointed out, she didn't enjoy it, nor did most everyone else. There's nothing to "enjoy" when a miner heads outside of Minoc, or a new character explores outside the Brit canyon to the Skara-Yew crossroads, and suddenly saw half a dozen reds coming out of hiding, then a gray screen two seconds later. How many players quit on the spot after placing a house, only to have the key stolen or taken not long after? Had griefers controlled themselves a little, or been controlled, then Trammel might have had free-for-all fighting in dungeons, like Primeval Lich was made. That would have necessitated all griefers, though, because the least griefing would have still been too much.

There was an old UO comic about a true roleplaying red. I forget the name, and the site's probably been down for years. It was excellently done, particularly one edition of the character staying hidden near a mining area outside town. At noon, no problems. Then at a time implying school had gotten out for the day, griefers appeared, killed the miners, and told them they sucked.

Thanks to free shards, everyone can be happy. People can pretty much play by whatever rules they like. The unfortunate thing is that so many people will never get to experience playing on any other shard because they can't imagine a world where they don't have all their pixel junk, so they continue to be miserable and whine about all the problems that these official shards present.

Free shards with uninhibited attacking of other players is consensual PvP, you know, in the way Siege is. Everyone else gets to play elsewhere.

 

[The Zog historian]

Diablo and UO grew up together. Both had to stop non consensual PvP. One chose a button so nothing else had to change. Both are still around.

The last time I played it, Diablo didn't have houses (and therefore not the land scarcity). So Trammel, albeit not perfect, was the best solution to two big problems.

 

[The Zog historian]

I have no idea how can I enjoy it being unprepared (I prepare for killing mobs) against somebody who is experienced and geared up just to gank my 130 hp pvm one-week-on-shard character in several blows? Or in one blow if Im fighting a mob?
Where is the joy in walking long way to get ressed? Thinking that some guy with top gear suit wanted my 25k insurance fee? May be there is some entertaininment in being reskiled? I never found it.
Being in TRAM I don't go to lots of places where I know I will be instantly killed. like Slasher. I do what I can and enjoy it.
My only joy in pvp was making gold selling forged pardons or seeds (which are really boring to farm).

Here's a post from the old Stratics, with the relevant part bolded. It wasn't even "Well just gear up for a fight if you go to a dungeon, because it's dangerous there." Sometimes you could gear up better than your attackers, but there were too many of them who'd even wait for a hidden lookout to tell them, "This guy's now on a blood ele, come gank him."

Posted by Pantageas on May 23, 1999 at 9:02:58 AM CDT:

...since I keep typing the same stance over and over again, and it keeps getting ignored by all the pro-PK enthusiasts. The only reason I even post it is because all the pro-PK folks were posting en masse before the weekly wipe, and spouting the same old things. So, here we go again...

People who are rabidly pro-PK refuse to accept that a lot of people don't want to play the game the way they themselves seem to enjoy it. Why do I say this? Because their responses are always a variation of 1) Don't leave town then. 2) Getting killed by a PK is no different than being killed by a monster. 3) Pking is part of the game, deal with it. 4) Build a character that can survive. 5) Recall is a sure way to avoid being PKed. 6) Don't pancake to OSI, do something yourselves. Now, the short list of responses:

1) Don't leave town then - If this were a feasable idea, don't you think EVERYONE with PK concerns would take it? The fact is, there's only so much skill gain you can get in town, tehre's only so many creatures to fight in town, there's no way to buy 'nice things' in town (you must go to a public vendor outside of town), and there's a limit to how much you can 'earn' in town. Many poeple DO do nothing but hang around chatting in town all the time. But why must someone who wants to play this game and LEAVE town mandatorily be a PvP expert?

2) Getting killed by a PK is no different than geting killed by a monster - Well, it must be different for people, or people wouldn't complain about it right? Q.E.D. It must be different FOR THEM! To step in those people's shoes for a second, here's the difference: If I'm playing a character who has no business fighting lich lords. I don't go where lich lords are. You can't "not go" to where PKs are, because PKs get to go EVERYWHERE. Everywhere except town(see point 1).

3) Pking is part of the game - Yes it is. Now how big a part should it play? Last I checked there were 14 starting classes and 48 skills. Are these not part of the game? What if a player decides they would rather deal with these, than PKs? Does EVERTHING about this game have to involve PKing, fighting PKs, or avoiding PKs? Only if OSI lets it be that way.

4) Build a charcter that can survive - See point 3. I built a character that can survive PKs. It also is differnt than the character I would like to play. You see, the character I would like to play probably couldn't survive PKs. The point is, how long am I going to pay OSI to play a character that's not the one I'd like to play? And if players like me leave, would PKs miss us? You bet they would! Who would they hunt otherwise?

5) Recall is a sure way to avoid being PKed - If that were true, no one would ever be PKed! The fact is things like lag, gang-banging, the clumsy client interface, etc. keep players from recalling as surely as they might like to. The game mechanics itself make in very hard to recall once you're engaged in a fight. Not to mention the simple fact, that if you're sitting around waiting to recall, you're not having as much fun in the game. And that's the point of playing (PKing aside for you rabid PKers out there.

6) Don't pancake to OSI. Take matters into your own hands - See point 5 above. You can't have it both ways. Either the same recall that is so 'easy' to avoid PKs can be used by PKs to escape retribution, or the difficulty that PKs have in recalling away from trouble exists for other players to escape PKs. Choose a stance, and then realize that there are pros and cons to each. My stance is that with recall as easy as it is, bringing justice to PKs is nigh impossible unless the PK chooses to stay and fight, and then you must have built a character to fight PKs, specifically go to where the PK is, and decided that that's the way you want to play the game (notice how all those other points seem to keep getting n the way?). If I enjoy fighting monsters when I play this game, why must I now become an active 'anti' and play the game that way? That makes no more sense than to mandate that every murderer must have at least 75 points in tailoring, veterinary, spirit speak, or any other 'non-combat' skill. The other point is for an active 'anti'(I used to be one), there's no way of finding a PK. You must hope that one someone saw somewhere stays around waiting for you to get there, or you must sit around doing nothing, hoping that a murderer comes by. Then if one comes by, you can't take time to "roleplay" with him. You have to start a full assault before they decide to recall away. Guess what? I don't find that "fun". Now a PK might find that "fun". That's exactly how their business is run. So they get to have fun, I don't.

Bottom line: PKs won't reign themselves in to any "standard" in this game world. There aren't mechanics that allow "antis" to police the game. Characters that can't survive PvP are slowly being turned into mules, or are becoming PvP based (notice the disappearance of tradesmen lately?). If OSI doesn't do something, this game is going to consume itself. Of course, the rabid pro-PKs will blame that on "whiners" too...

Pantageas - (Pacific/Magincia)
*Hello, Forests 'R' Us? I was wondering if you have any trees I could see?*

 

[The Zog historian]

My play style doesn't revolve around items or anything that can bind me to one shard so I can often switch shards without consequence. I do realize that I am in the vast minority with my play style and I don't expect anyone to play like I do or change their preference of how they play.

The part I bolded is just the thing. PKs forced their playstyle on others, and with the overwhelming majority of the player base not being interested in PvP, what was there to do?

First off, the fundamental dungeon designs are nothing more than a death trap for PvM players. Many of them only have one entrance or exit and the ones with multiple exits have their exit on the lower levels. So if you want to escape, you are left with no choice but to run past PKs that enter the dungeon or to run deeper into the dungeon where you might fall victim to more difficult mobs that you were not prepared to fight ultimately leaving you to the same fate either way. I would say that there should be at least one means of escape on each level of every dungeon besides the entry point. You also would not be able to recall and gate to or from dungeon interiors because that could be used to undermine the afore mentioned system.

It wasn't even about having to run through gauntlets, but that at any time, suddenly a half dozen red names could recall into the lich room.

Secondly, There needs to be real consequences for murdering players. The system we have now is just a joke. There is almost no consequence for being red. Does anyone care about murder counts? Not when you can eat a pardon and they're all gone. You need to make it so that the PK has to seriously debate whether killing a player is worth the penalty, be it stat loss, gold loss, jail time, etc. There is a shard out there where each long term count means you have to pay x amount of gold every time you are rezzed, and I believe it is a considerable amount. So those 8 rez kills you did when you totally "pwned that noob" came with a hefty price and no benefit.

The original penalty (1.0 skill per 8 hours upon res?) was somewhat of a deterrent, but some PKs would rack up counts on weekends, then macro them during the week. One putz was so obvious about it, standing at the East Brit Bank. "It's that time of the week again." "Macroing off murders." I'll give some points for the attempt to simulate a conversation, e.g. "Nice talking with you," but how many players did he grief, and how many of those gave up on UO because there was no effective penalty?

Now with the lack of penalty at all (why is there still the concept of a short-term counter?), it comes down to being freely attackable, which tends to happen at champ spawns anyway.

When the penalty is paid upon being ressed, then griefers become even more cowardly. Many of us used to hope to run into Sonoma's The Columbian (who was some teenage kid), not so much for the bounty, but for the glory of getting the guy at the top of the bounty board, over 300 kills. But he almost always ran in a pack, and not only did he recall at the first sign of trouble, he was a total cheater. I did find him one night, using my anti's high tracking, and Columbian was using UOE ghostwalk (you can see there how long ago that was) to walk around invisibly before there was any stealth skill.

And lastly, since you brought up the totally failed justice system, which I agree is more of an exploit to get more scrolls than anything. I have seen some very clever bounty systems employed. A murderer should feel hunted, players should be rewarded for protecting their fellow player. What better way to do that than a bounty system? Have a system where you can sign up for alerts and occasionally you get an alert that says "nEwB pWnEr has entered shame" or something so that an army of anti-PKs can show up to protect the masses.

I never saw killing one's own reds (on another account) as a problem, because solutions would probably screw things up more as they fixed. All right, so the first fix is to prevent justice gains on a linked account. Then what's to prevent a few friends from killing each others' reds? Then the solution becomes a time limit on how often you can gain justice. Is that fair, however, to someone who kills a dozen reds in 5 minutes of a fair fight? I'd rather have things as they are now, because justice/protection is something that BS would almost certainly nerf and ruin.

So there are all kinds of things that can be done to make non-consensual PvP better for everyone but the griefers I know it's hard for Trammies to understand that most PKs aren't really there to grief,

Like she pointed out, once you said "Trammies," that shows your side of the argument. There was only one way "to make non-consensual PvP better for everyone but the griefers," and that was to eliminate it completely. People wanted to be able to mine, chop wood, explore the roads, or look for a house spot, without worrying about a bunch of reds.

they're only there to reap the rewards of their chosen play style. Once those rewards are systematically taken away like they have been, griefing is all that is left. I also promise you that there are a lot of people out there that don't mind the occasional death by PK, you just don't see them here because they are on shards where systems like the ones I mentioned are in place. I understand that some just want to sit back and farm without consequence, but in my opinion, that defeats the purpose of playing in a sandbox world with many other players. Occasional heart-pounding action, I believe, would be a benefit to most players and Trammel took that away from them whether they know it or not.

You overestimate the "lot of people" and underestimate "the occasional death." And again, those who want non-consensual PvP can play Siege or the shards you mention.

If "farming" is someone's playstyle, it's no less valid than someone who wants to grief. After all, like griefers used to say, "We're paying the same money you are!" Was it "farming" when I saw how much drops were going for on Atl, and spent the time to get 100 to sell? It was a real grind, but no one can say I forced my "playstyle" on them.

 

[HRH Liz]

She basically said that. With keyboards and gaming pads that have macros. She knows she can not stop that kind of stuff. They will do what they do now to stop it.

There is a HUGE difference between keyboards and gaming pads and 3 party cheat programs. Those items you mentioned are legal

 

[HRH Liz]

Sure she did And once it's out, you will see for yourself.

I am not stupid unlike some people that I know. Show me the link where she said it, oh wait you can't are you would have already done it.

 

[Pawain]

There is a HUGE difference between keyboards and gaming pads and 3 party cheat programs. Those items you mentioned are legal

Making a macro that runs by itself and leaving your computer is not legal. And how would they find out someone was doing that while standing on the ledge in the slug pit? She acknowledged there will be cheaters. She is not stupid enough to say there will be none. It was in the video chat. Maybe other places.

 

[ShriNayne]

I am not stupid unlike some people that I know. Show me the link where she said it, oh wait you can't are you would have already done it.

I think the reason there is no link is that she spoke about it at the recent Dev live chat, someone posted a question about it (cheating, scripting etc.) and the upshot seemed to be that there was nothing they could do about that, which is a cop-out but that's pretty much what she said.

 

[petemage]

I am not stupid unlike some people that I know. Show me the link where she said it, oh wait you can't are you would have already done it.

What @ShriNayne said. You act like you know it all but haven't even watched the live hangouts?

Here is the link for you: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2LvHD3LS_4wBWPzh-UGUdQ

 

[Keven2002]

This is why I think they should stick to the newsletter; I watched the live hangout 2 months or so ago but there are so many corny / cringe worthy points in there that any little blurb they might give about something is sometimes lost...and I have no desire to go back to listen to an hour of crap for a 45 second clip of something I thought I heard. With the newsletter we could just do a control F to find what we were looking for.