In concept - Virtue vs Vice

[Viper09]

We won't really know that if and until this stuff hits Test Center.

Clearly. However, I suspect we aren't anywhere close to this phase. The ideas presented thus far appear to be just that, ideas. Not that it is wrong to include the player base in the ideas phase, I am glad they did this.

But while instanced battles sound like a cool idea, I fear it will quickly go become unused due to being forgotten, loss of desire to use it or inability to actually compete with the other side due to an imbalance between both sides. This is just my opinion of course.

The reason I say this is that the population of the shards (and those who actually PvP on each shard) just isn't high enough to make this system worth-while in the long run. Now, if they were to somehow make it instanced for all shards, so that all shards are competing with and against each other in one location, as a constant and never-ending battleground, that would be awesome. I could see that working much better.

 

[Tina Small]

As the Devs probably don't even have answers for these yet, since as its been said everything is still in concept, I think its best to look at what we already have in game.

Currently in instances, you have your timer to get in (Of course, in whats available currently, its with keys). Losing connection does not currently eject you out, and there is a timer from when the boss dies for you to get your things and leave. If you get ejected while your corpse still has items, they are lost.

You also bring up a good point by talking about how Arena's currently work in regards to bodies. Dying in an Arena pops the body out, allowing you to gather everything up. The thing is, PvPers will most likely want to be able to loot each other (Looting pots + supplies). If you are worried about the loot on your body, does that mean you would like bodies to be unlootable within the battle? Or would you just like it if your final body is ejected out along with you?

Your team has to win 5 shrines to get the rewards, so I would think you don't want EACH battle taking hours to do. Looting would definitely make things go faster, as you kill and eliminate the other teams resources. I personally think preventing looting would be too much of a turnoff, and isnt what Fel is.

I didn't state any preference one way or the other about looting of corpses. I was merely asking questions. The way I look at it, if you die in Fel, there's a really good chance your corpse may be looted. If you play on Siege, you stand to lose even more. However, if the way corpses are handled works the same way it does today with battle arenas, that would be a rather significant change that many people might bicker about. Some might say that nonlootable corpses might encourage more non-PvPers to try out the new system. Others might say that nonlootable corpses (especially if the battles do happen in instances and you can't leave to restock and come back) would be an unpardonable change to the Fel ruleset. Still others might say that not being able to loot the corpses of the fallen to replenish your supplies might force battles to end more quickly. So....whichever outcome you favor, it would be kinda nice to know soon how getting into the battle, getting out of it and then returning, joining late, crashes, and corpse looting will work. I'd hate to leave all those mechanisms undiscussed and then have this rolled out and the majority of the people that you hoped would use the system find simple stuff like that too unwieldy and different to make them want to participate in the new system.

 

[Promathia]

I have a strong feeling any fears about sides , or not enough people being available will quickly be resolved.

http://qkme.me/3v97gn
In regards to Buds previous post:
PvP has these ssystem currently
Spawns + Harrowers
Worldwide PvP

Factions does NOT get used for its intended purpose of base/sigil fights. That aspect is used by a VERY small minority. This system will create a NEW system of PvP, yet keep all the aspects PvPers like about Factions when it comes to the worldwide pvp.

Instanced fights isnt going to hurt fel, it ADDS to it. If you do not like it, you dont use it. You cant FIX Factions by changing Stat loss, as towns/bases would STILL be where they are, and that is unused.

This is why they create the new system, not only is there a better version of "stat" in the wounded debuff, but you have a new battle experience that WILL get used.

If the make the rewards desirable enough, and RARE enough , people WILL go to do it.

 

[Cadderly]

1. They arent going to make people design their house/not let them in their house/make them move their house
2. Fighting in GuardZones sounds completely not fun. This isnt a tower defense game, and they arent going to revamp all the towns guardzones for this. Why would you even WANT something like faction guards anyway? I get why they worked for defending 10hour sigils, but for this? I dont see why PvPers would want pvm in their battles.

1. They arent going to make people design their house/not let them in their house/make them move their house
2. Fighting in GuardZones sounds completely not fun. This isnt a tower defense game, and they arent going to revamp all the towns guardzones for this. Why would you even WANT something like faction guards anyway? I get why they worked for defending 10hour sigils, but for this? I dont see why PvPers would want pvm in their battles.

Don't want guard zones, don't want players hiding in there houses, if they are in a house go inside and kill them. I want player cities, I want to forge my own defenses, I want both tram and fell taking interest in this, I want everything that was great about factions implemented into this and then I want more.

They say "in concept" what they mean is this is what we want to move forward with so give us your positive ideas on our template because this is it. Start coming up with improvements on what they say or get ready for jack **** for another 5 years.

 

[JC the Builder]

This may have been addressed already, but what is going to prevent everyone from simply joining all up one side to win all the time?

The whole thing seems more like a mini-game than a system for organized PVP.

 

[Warpig Inc]

Then the reward should reflect the turn out of enemy numbers. But then what stops virtue players from logging on other account that is on the vice side? And then just rolling over. What is to stop a virtue player from logging on another account that is enemy and attacking their vice friends? Also if it is a battlezone. Any non virtue/vice player dieing in the zone should have their ghost teleported to the deepest dungeon corner. No matter what comes of virtue/vice. Pretty sure I will be fishing, mining and BOD filling waiting for updates to current outdated reward systems. DOOM. Just buff up what is already ingame. Is it not easier to fix/improve what is already in game knowns then trying to reinvent the wheel?

 

[FrejaSP]

I don't like places only V vs V can go, and I don't like limits or imbalance to PvP between V vs V and non V vs V.
I hope the system can give the Vvs V players more fights without splitting the community in two.

 

[Lythos-]

This may have been addressed already, but what is going to prevent everyone from simply joining all up one side to win all the time?

That's a good point as well but I believe it was answered if there wasn't a solid number on each side the fight wouldn't start.

I would like to bring up a question of abuse by asking how this would work if a guild would split their alts into both sides to fight just for the rewards? It would similar to faction point farming except there will be rewards at stake.

 

[Promathia]

I don't like places only V vs V can go

So you didnt like Factions?

 

[FrejaSP]

So you didnt like Factions?

I did like Order vs Chaos better or the Evil vs Hero we had on Siege. I also like the good old red vs blue system
I would hate to see battle grounds only for VvsV. Now keep in mind, I play Siege, where we don't have the trammel facet and where we have fel rules on all facets and where faction did work on all facets.

Do I like faction?
I do not like it to mess up prices in our towns
I do not like the towns filled with factions guards
I do not like the stat loss but I could choose not to join it
I do not like town fights but again, no one forced me to join
I do not like Lord British castle being faction only
I do like it allow players to find more fights without having to go red

So you are right, I do not like faction as it is now and I believe Siege was more fun before we got it and half the shard was red.

 

[Promathia]

I would hate to see battle grounds only for VvsV.

Except, that's not the case at all.

The Dev's have already said Siege is a special case, and they would adjust accordingly anyway.

 

[FrejaSP]

Except, that's not the case at all.

The Dev's have already said Siege is a special case, and they would adjust accordingly anyway.

Yes but that does not mean we all want the same on Siege, just like normal shards so have different wishes depending of their play style.

 

[budman23]

Im curious how much pvp do you see around Medusa or the Stygian Dragon?
Do we actually see pvp around the peerleeses? Don't people actually help stuck when pvp is even close to these locations?

What made Ultima Online what it is, is the ability to randomly run into people doing whatever they do.
This does not promote this theme, in fact this is going against that theme as much as possible.
This will not add to anything, this will just make it possible to circumvent pvp, much like everything else instanced in this game.

If I wanted to play WoW I will just play WoW, stop trying to copy someone elses crappy ideas that don't work for this game.
Just remember how well world chat worked out after you copied that from god knows who?

 

[Promathia]

Yes but that does not mean we all want the same on Siege, just like normal shards so have different wishes depending of their play style.

They have what, 25 normal shards, and 2 with special rulesets?

Make it for the 25 first, then change it as needed to fit in and not disrupt Siege/Mugen IMO

 

[Promathia]

Im curious how much pvp do you see around Medusa or the Stygian Dragon?
Do we actually see pvp around the peerleeses? Don't people actually help stuck when pvp is even close to these locations?

This makes no sense whatsoever. Are you asking players of Siege and Mugen, the only shards where you could POSSIBLY pvp in those areas, how active it is? Especially when they are places specifically for PvM, and have NOTHING to do with PvP?

I'm sorry, but whats the difference between what Factions was all about (Base fighting/Sigils) and this new system? Except with the new system, you wouldn't have places cut off from in the actual world that you cannot go. If you weren't factions, you COULD NOT go into the bases, where the majority of the pvp was going on. + If you weren't factions, you really couldn't even fight in the CITIES themselves (Guardzone).

So because Factions cut people off from going to specific area where PvP happened, that was going against what UO was? You know, the system introduced back in the year 2000, a while 13 years ago?


Instancing off the shrine fights, is no different than having Factions and base fights. Both limit the participants to ONLY people IN the system.

 

[Heavenless]

They could probably move the chaos shrine to the Minax base or clear out some monutains behind where the shrine currently is.

Each faction on siege has at least 1 active guild but it's rare to see groups larger than 4 or 5 players.

 

[budman23]

I remember for years and years of factions raiding spawns and no on thought a problem with that.
Is there anything to do with factions at the spawns?

Now the second blues interact with the fight at faction bases we have this omg problem.
But wait a second, this is clearly a 1 sided problem because when they were messing with the non factioners there was no problem.
Honestly sounds like a they dished it out but couldn't take it scenario.

Btw I play Siege and I enjoy others who wont possibly ever play the shard like Promathia to tell me exactly whats happening there.

Instanced pvp is something uo doesn't need, in fact its about as far to taking all pvp to trammel as you could possibly do.
Factions is doing poorly due to poor programming, like 10 factioners who DO play have said it already.
I honestly don't even know why you give your side at all you don't play factions anywhere anyways.

 

[hen]

Where do these "battleground" pvp encounters take place? Is it World of Warcraft or Guild Wars or something?

 

[CovenantX]

I'm not a fan of "instanced pvp" either.

Hopefully they could just have this set up around the normal shrines (non-instanced) and have All players be affected by the debuff "Wounded" when killed in the area around a shrine, regardless if they're members of V vs V or not.

wounded: increasing damage done by V vs V members only. "wounded" shouldn't affect damage done by non- V/V members.

It wouldn't stop non-members from participating, but they wouldn't benefit from rewards if the team they're helping wins.

 

[Kyronix]

Hopefully they could just have this set up around the normal shrines (non-instanced)

Doing anything in the existing over world of this magnitude results in having to deal with Housing, which complicates everything. I think the use of the word "instanced" is a bit misleading in this case. What we would do is recreate the world building at and around the shrine in a separate area free of housing. When the battle for the shrine took place, it would occur at this location. When a battle began the fighting would take place in this location and any participant would be free to join in the battle by whatever mechanic ends up getting you to the battle.

Does that make more sense?

 

[CovenantX]

Doing anything in the existing over world of this magnitude results in having to deal with Housing, which complicates everything. I think the use of the word "instanced" is a bit misleading in this case. What we would do is recreate the world building at and around the shrine in a separate area free of housing. When the battle for the shrine took place, it would occur at this location. When a battle began the fighting would take place in this location and any participant would be free to join in the battle by whatever mechanic ends up getting you to the battle.

Does that make more sense?

So basically, the shrines will be moved to areas where housing isn't going to be close enough to interfere with the battles?

If that's the case, all players (Even non Virtue-Vice) will be able to pvp at these re-created shrines?

 

[Kage]

So basically, the shrines will be moved to areas where housing isn't going to be close enough to interfere with the battles?

If that's the case, all players (Even non Virtue-Vice) will be able to pvp at these re-created shrines?

I hope not... That's one of the problems we have now is non faction players jumping into a faction fight.

 

[Kyronix]

So basically, the shrines will be moved to areas where housing isn't going to be close enough to interfere with the battles?

If that's the case, all players (Even non Virtue-Vice) will be able to pvp at these re-created shrines?

You would need to be in the V/V system to enter.

 

[Troll The T Hunter]

if this was on siege there would never be enough players to to participate. Im all for just logging into a battle ground with whatever charactor from whatever server you want. Then just have a battle royal. One major problem with that is the shards with insurance and shards without. Maybe you log on naked and gear up with free generic Virtue-vice armor at a home base.

One thing I don't want to see is a bunch of "reward" items coming into the general populace like factions items already do.

 

[Lythos-]

You would need to be in the V/V system to enter.

May I suggest taking an old outdated dungeon/city (Wind) and transforming it into a V/V romping ground? There's a city there, it's unused for the most part and there's plenty of room to put the shrine areas.

 

[FrejaSP]

I hope not... That's one of the problems we have now is non faction players jumping into a faction fight.

Is that worse than faction players (in the past) using overpowered factions gear to kill non factions, and the stupid gear been useless for the non faction if he success defending himself?

 

[Kage]

Is that worse than faction players (in the past) using overpowered factions gear to kill non factions, and the stupid gear been useless for the non faction if he success defending himself?

Do you know what always make me laugh the most about the old over powered faction gear thing? Is the fact that I can take any player from your shard and kill them wearing GM armor, and they can equip all the faction items in the world.

Faction items are better but they're not over powered. OMG THAT ORNY HAS 3 Mana Regen theres no way I can kill that player...

5 more dex on a crimson (Game Breaker) *rolls eyes*

 

[Promathia]

May I suggest taking an old outdated dungeon/city (Wind) and transforming it into a V/V romping ground? There's a city there, it's unused for the most part and there's plenty of room to put the shrine areas.

Which is narrow enough to be nothing but grinders.

Non V/V players should not be able to interfere with the fights for the shrines.

 

[FrejaSP]

Do you know what always make me laugh the most about the old over powered faction gear thing? Is the fact that I can take any player from your shard and kill them wearing GM armor, and they can equip all the faction items in the world.

Faction items are better but they're not over powered. OMG THAT ORNY HAS 3 Mana Regen theres no way I can kill that player...

5 more dex on a crimson (Game Breaker) *rolls eyes*

I said in the past, Factions artifacts are not a problem right now.
And I think it may be long time sinse you played Siege last, if you think you can take any player on Siege and kill them wearing GM armor
Come back to us

 

[Kage]

I said in the past, Factions artifacts are not a problem right now.
And I think it may be long time sinse you played Siege last, if you think you can take any player on Siege and kill them wearing GM armor
Come back to us

Me and Forsaken came back a few months ago and everyone stopped fighting us and accused us of hacking because we kept killing them. Forsaken + Me Vs 6-7 and we still won them all.

 

[budman23]

Im all for this system as long as we make all factioners gear drop off them anywhere near a spawn and becomes unusable.

Sounds like a whole lot of crying about other people to fight who say that they are pvprs
Irony?

 

[Feanaro]

Now instead of claiming people use hacks on siege they say "that guy just EVO'ed across my screen!" Go ahead deny it chump people stop fighting people they cant catch....

 

[Warpig Inc]

Me and Forsaken came back a few months ago and everyone stopped fighting us and accused us of hacking because we kept killing them. Forsaken + Me Vs 6-7 and we still won them all.

And I'm sure you was gracious killers. The battle didn't carry over to chat. As experience vet players you reenforced the nuub players with construtive advise on PvPing. Kept killing is that a new term for rez kill? You win UO. Here's your cookie.

When I came across player on lesser system or bad overseas connection. I would redline them and keep their heart racing. VvV is just a bone for the PvP community or they would release more info for imput before it is written in code. Nothing good will come of a reward system that is gained through PvP. Aren't there some past bad eggs on this system?

 

[Viquire]

Doing anything in the existing over world of this magnitude results in having to deal with Housing, which complicates everything. I think the use of the word "instanced" is a bit misleading in this case. What we would do is recreate the world building at and around the shrine in a separate area free of housing. When the battle for the shrine took place, it would occur at this location. When a battle began the fighting would take place in this location and any participant would be free to join in the battle by whatever mechanic ends up getting you to the battle.

Does that make more sense?

Just throwing this out there, doesn't every shine in in Britannia have a mirror in Ilsh? Maybe here would be a way to make better use of this landmass? But there I go complicating things again.

Also, on a different note and factions aside, every time we have looked at a serious pvp revamp one of the things that has been asked for a lot is for the battles and their results to have some kind of a contextual bearing on the "persistent world" I had not seen anything like that mentioned beyond the gear. Was wondering if any thoughts about those types of questions had found consideration yet. I realize it is very early in a brain storming/conceptualizing phase.

If there is a reward of crimson dye, then I am in. Real crimson now, not that other, shaded, crimson.

Last thing. Does this project currently fall in line before or after completing the rollout of the new loot system?

 

[cazador]

IMO it would be more fun if you entered via an entrance stone and it essentially copy's that character to a "battleground" shard and when the battle starts you log into that shard so it becomes a game wide system..I highly doubt it's possible with the resources we currently have or even at all..but it just seems the system in itself will be useless to so many dead shards..it's a bonafide capture the flag type "mini" game not an actual PvP solution..half assed imho..

It doesn't even compare to old faction wars..with that said, stop comparing it. It isn't even CLOSE..

 

[Smoot]

Before any of these "frills and whistles" are even talked about, time should be devoted to the reason many many people have abandoned pvp in uo. because so many use third party programs to play. i rather see time spent on securing UO as a game than any more content development.
As everyone can see as of late, allowing people to use "illegal" programs with ease and little chance of being caught only leads to encouraging other "illegal" things to be done in UO like the recent mythic token / dupe escapade.

New content / systems with no attention to game security would only be wasted effort.

 

[Rupert Avery]

Order vs. Chaos doesn't really fit right now with the fictional landscape of our Britannia.

So where does Vice and Virtue fit into it? Not much has chanced apart from added land mass? The only thing I can see being different is the addition of U4E which is big on virtues..

 

[Kyronix]

So where does Vice and Virtue fit into it? Not much has chanced apart from added land mass? The only thing I can see being different is the addition of U4E which is big on virtues..

The particulars of the fictional basis for a battle over the shrines is really open at this point, there are a number of different directions we can take.

Order & Chaos, however, don't fit since Blackthorn became King.

 

[Kage]

Sure we can fix the game when it hurts EA (Mythic Tokens) But when it hurts the players we just leave it broke? Gargoyles throwing bolas while flying, game crashing all of the time, crappy log in servers, crappy servers.... AND MUCH MORE...

THANK YOU.

 

[Rupert Avery]

The particulars of the fictional basis for a battle over the shrines is really open at this point, there are a number of different directions we can take.

Order & Chaos, however, don't fit since Blackthorn became King.

Personally I think that could work even more.. Lord Blackthorn is evil and so technically Chaos rules right now.. Surely Order would want to fight back

 

[cazador]

Personally I think that could work even more.. Lord Blackthorn is evil and so technically Chaos rules right now.. Surely Order would want to fight back

Excuse you!! Leave logic off these boards please!!

First off 2 teams sucksssssss!! Make it atleast 4

Based off virtues I guess

Valor
Chaos
Humility
Spirituality


Each Team has specific enemies and ways of gaining rank..

Orange Enemy- Kill points based off players rank 1-15
Purple Enemy- Kill Points based off enemies rank points divided by 2
Dark Blue- Neutral If Killed no murders are reportable (can be reported as a traitor then you turn orange to all)
(if already red you receive no traitor status)
Blue- All Original flagging rules apply

Chaos(Enemies)
Spirituality- Orange
Valor- Orange
Humility- Orange

Spirituality(Enemies) Om- +4 HP Regen
Chaos- Orange
Valor- Dark Blue
Humility- Purple

Valor(Enemies) Ra-+3 Mana Regen
Chaos- Orange
Humility- Purple
Spirituality-Dark Blue

Humility(Enemies) Lum- +2 Mana Regen +2 HP Regen
Valor-Purple
Spirituality-Purple
Chaos-Orange

Mantras Can be used once every 6 hours don't put you above cap and last for 60Minutes and cost 1000 Silver Must be rank 5

Same team kills make you a traitor and orange to all for 15 Minutes..

Basic thought..could be incorporated into the whole VvV system with fighting over shrines blah blah..which is just a mini game..I think most PvPers would say even if they don't agree with the above we want to be able to fight at the gate/spawns and wherever else not just in some mini game teamed with guilds/players we don't particularly like or enjoy playing with..

 

[Kyronix]

Personally I think that could work even more.. Lord Blackthorn is evil and so technically Chaos rules right now.. Surely Order would want to fight back

The true Lord Blackthorn is not evil though, the doppelganger that Exodus created that became Robo-Blackthorn was a corrupted version of the true Blackthorn. The tenants of Chaos teach that every life, whether it be human, gargsih, orc, or otherwise is valued and worth saving. Order, on the other hand, stressed strict adherence to the Virtues. It was always Lord British's philosophy that everyone should follow Order, and as a result he would be able to reunite all the shards. Blackthorn took issue with this as his belief was that every life was valid and reuniting the shards would essentially blink every life on each shard but Sosaria-Prime out of existence. It was Blackthorn's belief that so long as at least one person followed Chaos, Order would never conquer all and as a result LB would never be able to reunite the shards.

Our Blackthorn, recently freed from being imprisoned by Exodus, performed a number of acts demonstrating that he was a stark contrast to the "evil" robo-version that ruled over parts of Ilshenar. Blackthorn was responsible for healing the Great Gargish Plague, Repairing the corrupted Honor Moongate in Ilshenar, and reuniting a fractured Britannia under his banner.

All hail the King!

 

[Assia Penryn]

I have a question for a Dev... I have an old pair of leggings that I have had for a couple of years... "A Faction Ringmail Leggings of Exceptional Quality" Anyone who knows me well, knows that my Exceptional Quality collection is my pride and joy. I think out of my entire collection, this is one of my favorite pieces. Please tell me that they will be preserved and I won't lose them when faction goes away.

 

[Kirthag]

I haven't read everything, but I got a good gist of what is being proposed.

Interesting choice... using ethics which can be soooo slanted by opinion. Yep, can see a lot of warring in this in the future...

Virtue - moral excellence as determined by a given society.
Vice - immoral, depraved, degraded as judged the associated society.

You need to add this in for balance....
Neutrality - being moral, or immoral, so as to retain an ethical balance within the associated society. THIS should be added to serve as a catalyst and/or balance for the other two.

Wouldn't it be easier to just re-establish Ultima's Chaos/Order system with a revamp? After all, those were the earliest principles of the game and a return to the game's roots would help with a revitalization m'thinks. Utilizing Virtue & Vice is smacking of religion and that kinda rubs me a little wrong.

Light & Dark - cannot have one without the other - with shades and shadows to make things interesting, eh?

But I digress.

Here are some suggestions & questions regarding this system. Do mind, I didn't read everything in everyone's posts, so I might repeat some things. But I have given this A LOT of thought, even dredged up some of my own ideas from the past to put forward...


STUFF

• Please, for the sake of UO-history and as a reward to the existing factions players - DO NOT REMOVE THEIR MOUNTS. We all grow attached to certain pixels and I know for a fact how some people feel about their faction horses. I know I'd just about go ballistic if I ever lost my Pooka.
• Insofar as the faction items that collectors have hoarded (myself included), I won't be terribly hurt to lose these as they serve no other purpose than to add to server load and lockdown counts - but they ARE a bit of history. Give us the option to use in the Clean Up Ticket system, or to keep them as deco pieces only on a mannequin. If for anything, those old-skool faction guys can sit around the fireplaces, pointing to their battered and used old faction armor and remember the good ol' days when talking to young ones.
• Do not just "give" items and armor away. If there is a way for it to be CRAFTED, then make it so. You started in that direction with the King's collection, expand on that please.
• If said crafters need to belong to a V/V guild, then so be it. Wouldn't it be nice to give a crafter the opportunity to be Neutral, serving both aspects? Now wouldn't that be interesting if a crafter got caught contributing to both sides?

MAP

• Revamp the Faction holds (areas) but don't wipe them out. There is a lot of history there, and the loss of that history deadens the game. Yes, we would like to make new history - but we shouldn't lose the old history as well. If you really wanna wipe out old Faction Strongholds, at least make them into ruins.. not just wipe them. :-/ Really kills my immersion, eh?

PVP

• I, for one, am a lover of <risk = <reward.
• Making the VvV battles instanced is interesting. If that is the case...
  • It would prevent jumpers, griefers, etc. but also limit the addition of reinforcements and late guildies due to timezone differences
    • To put this into sharper focus, really, just how many players in Hawaii actually get to participate in these things except on the weekends or by playing hooky from work or skipping a surfing day? Sometimes I feel like the only UO player in the Aloha state. *sigh* Is it any wonder, even on Napa, I am in no guild.
  • No bank access once in the instance
  • Don't implement debuffs and what not. We should rely on our SKILLS and TEAMWORK.
  • If you die in the instance, you are done. Period. Out of the battle. Fight another day.
  • No one turns red in an instanced battle unless you beat up people on your side
  • Upon death, you can sit outside of the instance and just wait for the outcome while listening in on Vent or whatever. Now THAT would be interesting! Next time, don't die!
  • Your stuff? Gone. Go see your V/V crafter for new gear by the next scheduled instance time!
  • Loot from instanced dead people CANNOT be taken out of the instance. You can use it in the instance, but not take it home.
  • So what rewards are there if cannot keep loot or get insurance from said loot?
    • Points for your guild (leaderboard)
    • Bragging rights, title display, etc.
    • A guild earns so much points, they should get rewards as a guild (similar to factions actually) but shard wide (not just in whatever city)
    • Or better yet, leave it up to the governors of a given city to favor either Virtue (Order) or Vice (Chaos), and the NPC vendors react accordingly (built in politics & community!)
      • Hence, the need for a Neutral aspect.
      • If a city has no governor, it would automatically be considered neutral and give no benefit to either side
• People should NOT be rewarded for shard jumping, sorry. If someone jumps to another shard just to get... whatever... that really defeats the purpose. It ruins shard politics and just pits players against each other in ways that are NOT CONDUCIVE TO GENERATING COMMUNITY WITHIN THE GAME. (please don't get me going on this)

COMMUNITY

• I remember UO before Trammel was "discovered" and really do miss the danger and potential loss in ALL aspects off the game as well as how that danger REALLY brought the community together.
• Do not forget that a lot of guilds (definitely on the less populated shards) consist of only a handful of close friends even though there may be 30 characters in that guild.
• Instead of setting specific areas, yes, make the instance a ROVING one which will bring activity to various areas of the shards.
• Allow a "war camp" to be situated outside of the instance for each side (kinda like gypsy camps) with bank access and vendor stalls for V/V player-merchants to set up shop
• Between instanced battles, allow guilds to stage "skirmishes" with their opposites - but absolutely NO FIGHTING within city limits
  • Unless, of course, the governor of a particular city is aligned with a certain side
  • Should skirmishes take place, let standard PVP rules apply and no points toward leaderboard
• IF players jump a toon from shard to shard just to participate in VvV battle instances, then put limitations & requirements... DON'T GIVE THEM STUFF!
  • Player Must have another character established on that shard at skill level 500 or more with at least two skills above 80 and who has presence on the shard for more than 30 days (this shows _some_ level of participation on that shard)
  • Must have the participating toon on the shard for 3 days prior to the battle instance (or some other timeframe, depending upon the frequency of instances for the shard)
  • If an entire guild jumps shards just to rack up points, sorry, the points count ONLY FOR THAT SHARD and are not combined with points from other shards. Period.
  • A V/V participating character will lost all gained V/V points/titles when jumping to another shard

AND FINALLY...

• Instead of using terms that smack of religion, just go back to Order/Chaos which is based on UO philosophy and history anyway.
• Don't implement VvV at all, instead follow the recommendations by Gedgerez: http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-5#post-2287626 (this has my vote!)

*steps down from soapbox*

 

[The Zog historian]

You need to add this in for balance....
Neutrality - being moral, or immoral, so as to retain an ethical balance within the associated society. THIS should be added to serve as a catalyst and/or balance for the other two.

Mathematically speaking, you realize that neutral, being zero, doesn't add anything either way and therefore doesn't alter the balance.

To allow for neutrality, we'd have to add a second axis a la D&D's classic alignment. The Reputation System works in two dimensions, but the original Notoriety system was a one-dimensional ladder. I don't think the Devs are looking to make a PvP system this complex.

 

[DJAd]

Wow a 7 page thread already. Can someone give me the highlights....

 

[cazador]

Wow a 7 page thread already. Can someone give me the highlights....

Instanced PvP where you'll be teamed up most likely with guilds/players you dislike..it's basically a PvP mini game proposed so the devs can say geez guys we tried!! "How about we add some more fishing poles with better attributes"..not that I dislike fishing..just seemed to fit!

The system is what it is..

A vs B in a somewhat instanced battle..kind of like Capture the flag. Doesn't seem like such a horrible idea, just not really fixing the PvP urge...it'll be used as much as revamped Despise

 

[Gorbs]

Wow a 7 page thread already. Can someone give me the highlights....

A system designed to do for PvP what Despise has done for PvM

 

[Kirthag]

Mathematically speaking, you realize that neutral, being zero, doesn't add anything either way and therefore doesn't alter the balance.

To allow for neutrality, we'd have to add a second axis a la D&D's classic alignment. The Reputation System works in two dimensions, but the original Notoriety system was a one-dimensional ladder. I don't think the Devs are looking to make a PvP system this complex.

yes, I know math.

and yes, I was leaning toward the D&D classic alignment system, as that is really where I really started gaming back in 1982. Neutrality would seek to keeps the others in harmonious balance, serving one side or the other or both actually.

If the dev team is going to rework PvP, then by all means they _should_ do it completely and work the complexities into it. Start small with instances and once worked through (about a year?) let the battles bleed into the rest of the world.

But of course, that is very WoW-esque. But I said it years ago and still stand by it - combine WoW's graphics & PvP with UO's sandbox feel, crafting system and housing and that just might be the perfect game. One can dream...

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Wow a 7 page thread already. Can someone give me the highlights....

I am sure people will give you their objective, unbiased analytical summaries.

-Galen's player