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In concept - Virtue vs Vice

Promathia

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No one is going to use this system, I will refrence this post 3 months after VV comes out.
BS

People WILL use it, because Factions will be gone and people will still want the same experience with oranges + Faction Arties.

The question isnt if people will be IN the system, but if they actually participate in the "battles" or just keep to yew gate like they do now.
 

Picus at the office

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We shall see if the 8 people still left in factions bother or are still playing next decade when this steaming pile gets finished. I have doubts that a system of PvP made by a team that doesn't PvP is actually going to have content that people who PvP actually find interesting. This is the same concept as arena's which all but died a week after release and are still sitting around as a relic to a lost adventure in UO lore.
 

G.v.P

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I'm going to continue with my thoughts saying Shrines (multiple) battles is a bad idea, needs to be 1-3 static places.

Slightly unrelated/a different idea, though, EA is missing out on a huge market. Imagine if they made a PvP system like DOTA, a MOBA style arena based on what they were able to accomplish in the Covetous Re-Vamp and the Ophidian & Bane War. The AI is there.

For those unfamiliar, the DOTA model (using League, here) has three lanes, one "middle," a "left/top," and a "right/bottom," as well as a jungle. For the purposes of UO, a single, ARAM-style middle would suffice, haha. Two opposing sets of "minions," like in the Ophidian & Bane War, in a closed arena, and when they get to the other side, the objective is to destroy a "base."

Only problem is I can't think of any place to put it, except maybe an open space in T2A or maybe in the Terathan Keep. They would have to add a new dungeon the likes of Stygian Abyss, which finally added some new Fel content.
 

Winter

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I'm going to continue with my thoughts saying Shrines (multiple) battles is a bad idea, needs to be 1-3 static places. ...
The Chaos-Order fights were not limited to any one spot at all and worked for me. Sometimes you had to track people down, but I remember chasing and being chased all across a facet. This has to be a huge improvement over gate fighting.
 

G.v.P

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The Chaos-Order fights were not limited to any one spot at all and worked for me. Sometimes you had to track people down, but I remember chasing and being chased all across a facet. This has to be a huge improvement over gate fighting.
True, but Chaos-Order had no objectives outside of fighting each other. No bases to defend, no artifacts to get. I'm not defending those objectives as good things, either, just saying, this Virtue vs. Vice is trying to replace that kind of a system. But yeah, the Order/Chaos system, that, less-is-more system certainly would do well today, regardless of shard population (assuming even the one person online at the time can fight himself with his other account ;D).
 

Winter

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... But yeah, the Order/Chaos system, that, less-is-more system certainly would do well today, regardless of shard population (assuming even the one person online at the time can fight himself with his other account ;D).
I think overall the past developers just made the system way too complicated. They finally killed Factions by making it complicated AND tedious.
 

Picus of Napa

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Greetings everyone,
We would like to share with you an “In Concept” design for the future of the Faction system within Ultima Online. Please remember that while everything you see here is “In Concept” at this stage, it represents the direction we are aiming to go. We look forward to hearing your constructive feedback!


What are our high level goals for this new system?

1. Provide an objective based PvP experience.

2. Offer a sufficient level of gear that allows playing multiple shards to find the fight on whichever shard it may be occurring on.

3. Provide appropriate rewards to incentivize group efforts while engaging the system.

4. Incorporate Ultima’s Virtues as the basis for participating.

What will happen to the current faction system?

1. All aspects of the current faction system will be removed.

2. All currently existing faction artifacts will be allowed to expire via the “Moonbound” property.

3. All faction vendors and faction NPCs will be removed.

4. Town stones and faction bases will be removed.

How will Virtue & Vice work?

1. There are two opposing sides, one representing “Virtue” and one representing “Vice”

2. Each side will have an encampment located somewhere in the overworld where they can get limited amounts of gear similar to old faction gear for free, with additional gear being available for purchase. Each side will also get a mount. These encampments will only be accessible by members of its respective team.

3. Gear will be functionally useful in Felucca only.

4. If a guild participates in Virtue & Vice all members of that guild are automatically enrolled.

5. A single account can only affiliate with one team at a time. You may join multiple characters, but all account characters must be on the same team.

6. The system will track the number of players logged in to each team, when a threshold is met a battle will begin.

How do battles work?

1. At the beginning of each battle a random shrine that hasn’t already been featured in a battle will be chosen.

2. Players on each team will be notified that a shrine has been identified for battle.

3. Battles are objective based on the following:

a. When only 1 team is present in the vicinity of a shrine that team will begin claiming the shrine.

b. If at any time a living member of the opposing team is present in the vicinity of the shrine claiming will cease.

c. Visual cues at the shrine will indicate which team is currently claiming points for that shrine.

d. When resurrected in battle players will receive a “wounded” debuff that provides a damage modifier to incoming damage.

e. If a team reaches a victory threshold for holding the shrine they will be declared victors of that battle.

f. Following a battle there will be a cool down before the system checks to see if the population threshold has been met to begin another battle.

What happens after a battle has concluded?

1. Each shrine that is claimed will give a buff to the members of the team who claim it, while providing a lesser consolation buff to the losing team.

a. After all eight shrines have been cycled through for battle, the team with the most shrines will receive rewards.

2. In the event of a 4-4 tie, the Chaos shrine will be the tie breaker.



Some Player Generated FAQ (Thanks to Tina Small for putting together the base of this list)



Q: How will you put your character into Virtue & Vice?

A: Recruitment NPCs will be available in each of the Feluccan cities.



Q: How will you take characters out of Virtue & Vice and how long will it take to leave? How long will it take to re-join?

A: You can leave instantly at any time using a speech command, it will take 7 days to rejoin. If you shard transfer you will immediately be allowed to rejoin on your destination shard.



Q: How will you know who else is enrolled in Virtue & Vice?

A: There will be a team roster and each team will have their own visual style.



Q: Will there be any kind of structure to Virtue & Vice so that individual characters are perceived as being part of a team? If yes, what does that structure look like?

A: There won’t be any ranks like factions, but working as a team will provide for a greater chance of victory.



Q: If there is no structure to Virtue & Vice and you fight any and all other members of this arrangement on an individual basis, what incentives will people have for participating in it other than presumably just being able to PvP anywhere in the game?

A: There will be objectives that when completed will give rewards. The functionality of Virtue & Vice will be restricted to Felucca.



Q: Will it still be possible to set up guilds to war each other?

A: Yes, Guilds will still be able to war each other as they do now.



Q: If yes, will membership in Virtue & Vice affect how "guild war" kills are counted, i.e., which arrangement/system will take precedence in counting a kill that involves two characters in opposing guilds who also happen to belong to this arrangement?

A: They will work independently of each other.



Q: Will "young" characters be able to join this arrangement?

A: No.



Q: If there are any "teams" to Virtue & Vice, will all your characters on an account on the same shard have to join the same side or stay neutral, or can you have characters on the same account on different "teams" on the same shard?

A: You may only join 1 team per account. You can join multiple characters, but they must all be on the same team.



Q: Will there be anything similar to faction strongholds or bases, or just sign-up/quit stone(s)?

A: Nothing quite as large – think a smaller encampment.



Q: While you're in Virtue & Vice, can other characters in Virtue & Vice heal or rez your character or your pet? Can your guildmates or alliance mates heal or rez your character or pet?

A: When joining Virtue & Vice a guild must be all in. In Felucca if your guild or alliance mates are part of the same team, they will be able to heal and rez both you and your pets.



Q: Can you steal from a character who also belongs to this arrangement while both are outside of Felucca?

A: No.



Q: Will there be anything like the faction 20-minute skill loss period after your character dies to another character that is in Virtue & Vice?

A: There won’t be any stat loss, but continued death will result in a “Wounded” debuff where incoming damage is modified. Attacking one’s own team members will result in a “Traitor” debuff that will have dire negative effects on stats and skills.



Q: Will a character under Virtue & Vice be able to participate in the Trammel and Siege town election system, including taking advantage of town buffs?

A: Yes, so long as they are eligible under the requirements of that system.



Q: Are all kills made by members of Virtue & Vice of other members of Virtue & Vice considered "legal" and not reportable as murders?

A: Yes.



Q: Will you be able to use traps outside Felucca to kill/injure other members of Virtue & Vice? Will you be able to remove such traps?

A: We are still discussing the implementation of any traps within the system.



Q: Will Virtue & Vice add any new kinds of craftables?

A: Not at this time.



Q: What will be the consequences for non-members of Virtue & Vice who assist in kills or kill-attempts made by members of Virtue & Vice?

A: They will flag according to current flagging mechanics.



Q: Will there be any kind of ranking system, shard-wide leaders of any type, voting periods, etc.?

A: Not at this time.



Q: Will there be a leaderboard of any sort to keep track of who has made the most kills?

A: Yes.



Q: Will joining Virtue & Vice grant you any sort of special abilities or access to special items?

A: Yes, you will have access to gear (similar to current faction gear) that will only work in Felucca. These items will not be ephemeral, however will take extreme damage in Trammel.



Q: Are there plans for the designers/developers and the EMs to create special events built around Virtue & Vice?

A: Not at this time, but you never know ;)


Q: What will happen to the faction strongholds, sigil posts and town stones?

A: They will be removed.



Q: Will there be any kind of replacement for faction vendors, especially of the reagent and bottle type?

A: Yes, they will be located within the encampments for each team.



Q: Will the team make sure that NPC pricing in faction towns is not left at an artificially high or low level after the faction system is disabled?

A: Everything related to the current faction system will be removed and returned to its normal operating state.



Q: What will happen to existing faction war horses? Will there be any point in trying to keep them if you won't be able to actually ride them anymore or be able to rez them with bandages without vet skill?

A: Each team will have their own mounts to utilize. Current mounts will be removed.


Q: Will faction silver continue to have a use? What about faction trap deeds, faction trap removal kits, faction robes, faction-hued clothing and weapons, faction artifacts, faction consumables? Will these get stuck in containers and backpacks or on paperdolls and mannequins after the faction system is turned off?

A: Current faction gear will expire normally. Silver will continue to have a use, the extent of which is still in concept. Anything available in Factions as far as consumables will be available in Virtue & Vice.

Q: What about Siege & Mugen?

A: On Siege Perilous & Mugen opposing members of Virtue & Vice will be able to engage in combat anywhere. Initial gear will also be provided while additional gear will be available for purchase.
This isn't complex enough yet and it's only been a reasonable 287 days since post number 1. And only a totally fair 644 days since Pub 77 what should be known as the day factions, and a fair amount of accounts, died.
 

Skalazar

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Stratics Veteran
Over the next couple days I have decided that I want to voice my opinion on Ultima Online / Broadsword, I have decided since this system has recently made its way into a focus group I would start with this.

I beg of you to please abandon this project before it becomes the next faction revamp that actually made it to test before it got rejected.

This is not a good system design as objective based pvp is hard to accomplish on UO considering at this point in time all the pvpers have heated rivalry's with each other with just two teams people will not want to work together to reach a common goal. I know for a fact I will not team up with a player I dislike and if I am on their side I would do whatever possible to ensure that they lose, regardless of any penalty's you impose.

How is this going to work on the dead servers (Lake Austin/Origin/Baja/Pacific/Napa Valley/Catskills/Sonoma or any others not named Great Lakes or Atlantic) Will the rewards have monetary value so that zerg's will be encouraged to play these dead servers to put the system on lockdown to make profit?

There is just so much wrong with this, I worry the focus group you have isn't remotely reliable to give competent feedback and we will be stuck with this.
 

Dorinda

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Over the next couple days I have decided that I want to voice my opinion on Ultima Online / Broadsword, I have decided since this system has recently made its way into a focus group I would start with this.

I beg of you to please abandon this project before it becomes the next faction revamp that actually made it to test before it got rejected.

This is not a good system design as objective based pvp is hard to accomplish on UO considering at this point in time all the pvpers have heated rivalry's with each other with just two teams people will not want to work together to reach a common goal. I know for a fact I will not team up with a player I dislike and if I am on their side I would do whatever possible to ensure that they lose, regardless of any penalty's you impose.

How is this going to work on the dead servers (Lake Austin/Origin/Baja/Pacific/Napa Valley/Catskills/Sonoma or any others not named Great Lakes or Atlantic) Will the rewards have monetary value so that zerg's will be encouraged to play these dead servers to put the system on lockdown to make profit?

There is just so much wrong with this, I worry the focus group you have isn't remotely reliable to give competent feedback and we will be stuck with this.

What constitutes zergs these days, a guild of 8 members? The "focus group" should be trying to create new ideas to attract veterans back to this game.
 

Promathia

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This is not a good system design as objective based pvp is hard to accomplish on UO considering at this point in time all the pvpers have heated rivalry's with each other with just two teams people will not want to work together to reach a common goal.
They already stated in the hangout video your "team" in VvV is your guild. If you don't want to play with someone, don't add them to your guild.
 

Skalazar

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
What constitutes zergs these days, a guild of 8 members? The "focus group" should be trying to create new ideas to attract veterans back to this game.
if 8 players go to any shard other then atlantic then yes it would be a zerg, the population's on those servers are not large enough to compete with that.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

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Bah, just somehow remove the server lines from Buc's Den. No blues huddling around the guard zone, and practically no house hiding. PvP for big boy PvPers with big bawlz.
 

Pandora_CoD

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I still would rather just have OvC back. Again, PvP'ers do not need to be enticed to PvP. It is what they play this game for.

If you want old schoolers to return to partake in this system, appeal to the old school PvP'ers... old school PvM'ers are not really going to give a hoot about this stuff; it largely doesn't concern them. And the old school PvP'ers want a) simplicity, b) access, c) competition, and d) no interference. Sooo my answers are: a) can't get much more simpler than Order vs. Chaos --- choose a side, go fight, 7 days to switch sides, points awarded in some way b) Order vs. Chaos should be available on every single piece of content always in all ways, c) know that PvP'ers are competitive by nature, leaderboards help to encourage that, d) and finally once you have it going don't mess with it, don't try to change it 5 yrs from now, and DON'T BREAK IT with patches!
 
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