In concept - Virtue vs Vice

[GalenKnighthawke]

TBH, only the staff knows what CAN and cannot be done in this game. You know as much about UO coding as I or anyone else on here that isn't official staff. I offered a suggestion on what would boost my gaming experience without harming anyone. I actually never said roving areas. I suggested dedicated which would be stationary perma no fight zones whether it be 10 spots or 100.

To have such an area "roving" is the only way such a thing could work, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I see I was wrong to do so.

Static areas are even more unworkable, given the dynamic nature of the EM events.

I never claimed either of us know the code for the game, rather I explicitly said "what in your experience makes you think" this was code-able in UO. Nothing in mine. The closest thing I've ever seen are static areas where NPCs can stand and players can't be within a certain # of tiles of them; basically force fields. There was one around the Shrine of Honor (Ilsh) for the Blackthorn gate heal event, there was one around the Shrine of Humility (Ilsh), there is a seemingly-persistent one on Great Lakes in the Royal Spy headquarters -- an effort, it would appear, to get around deliberate griefing attempts.

This stuff clearly seems to be designed as a Fel system, to encourage and organize PvP in Fel and to feed the persistent storyline of Fel's gradual descent from one level of oblivion to the next. Keep the system there, like Factions was, and there you go. It is best for the rest of the map, best for what appears to be the principle or storyline, and there you go.

-Galen's player

 

[Lythos-]

To have such an area "roving" is the only way such a thing could work, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I see I was wrong to do so.

Static areas are even more unworkable, given the dynamic nature of the EM events.

I never claimed either of us know the code for the game, rather I explicitly said "what in your experience makes you think" this was code-able in UO. Nothing in mine. The closest thing I've ever seen are static areas where NPCs can stand and players can't be within a certain # of tiles of them; basically force fields. There was one around the Shrine of Honor (Ilsh) for the Blackthorn gate heal event, there was one around the Shrine of Humility (Ilsh), there is a seemingly-persistent one on Great Lakes in the Royal Spy headquarters -- an effort, it would appear, to get around deliberate griefing attempts.

This stuff clearly seems to be designed as a Fel system, to encourage and organize PvP in Fel and to feed the persistent storyline of Fel's gradual descent from one level of oblivion to the next. Keep the system there, like Factions was, and there you go. It is best for the rest of the map, best for what appears to be the principle or storyline, and there you go.

-Galen's player

The title of this thread is "in concept" where Mesanna asks the pvpers for suggestions and feedback to tweak this into something the pvpers would enjoy as a replacement to factions. I've offered some of my suggestions and sent in feedback already. If you disagree I suggest you send in yours as well.

You may have to put a little more meat into it though other than the usual "but events, fel is a failed business model and but fel got scrolls 12.8 years ago".

For the pvpers: Here's what I would like to get out of this system:
-Pvp across the lands (at least around towns,shrines and dungeons)
-no items given (just something equal to a faction horse to ride)
-special resources increased in dungeons for participating players (imbuing ingredients)
-wounding effect based on number of damaging players to dead player
-almost forgot: current faction artifacts introduced into game so all players can enjoy them

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

"but events, fel is a failed business model and but fel got scrolls 12.8 years ago".

Either a transparent lie about my arguments or a rather radical misunderstanding of them.

*shrugs* Oh well. To make **** up is easy. I'll never be able to dispel all of it.

-Galen's player

 

[Vexxed]

lol indeed.

You appear to be confusing two different concepts. Consistent, and persistent. EM events are not persistent, by definition, but they are consistent.

Consistent: Marked by Harmony, regularity, or steady continuity.....

1) He who gets out the Dictionary 1st has already lost the argument....
2) Sure by definition EM events occur with regularity & thus are consistent, but personally I wouldn't consider Eating once every 2 weeks regular nor would I base having fun in UO on a 1 hour event once a week......

Not sure what you mean here. I really seriously doubt many EM events will have much to do with the system.
At any rate, I rather plainly wasn't concerned with a participant in the system being attacked, because they have made their own choices.
Rather I was concerned with the other players who did not choose to participate in that system having important events disrupted.

It's interesting, and telling, how many people who wish to participate in this system saw Malag's words and my words and assumed that we were referring to them, rather than to the other players they appear to wish to disrupt.
-Galen's player

OK.. so EM events are your Baby.... I get that, but limiting V-V (Which appears will be a HUGE & drastic change to ALL PvP) to only Fel bc your worried about events is GREEDY. If it's a matter of pleasing the majority I'm betting more people would want V-V in the tram facet then not. What I also don't get is how V-V in Tram changes ANYTHING for EM events. People can still go drop fields / Cast spells / Stand in the wrong spot and generally be annoying, the only difference if V-V was in Tram is you'd potentially see such people misbehaving punished for their deeds if they were in V-V also.....

 

[Mervyn]

I have a major problem, especially with the proposed 'traitor' penalty. Here on Europa, we hate each other, I mean people really hate me as much as I hate them, we don't want to end up on the same side. I'd like to see MORE than 4 teams, not less.

There's NO WAY i'm going to join a system where I get a penalty for killing someone like GalenKnightHawke in game (not that i'd find him in game as he doesn't play in fel, some might even question why he's even bothering to troll this thread when he doesn't play in fel)

 

[Varrius]

I have a major problem, especially with the proposed 'traitor' penalty. Here on Europa, we hate each other, I mean people really hate me as much as I hate them, we don't want to end up on the same side. I'd like to see MORE than 4 teams, not less.

There's NO WAY i'm going to join a system where I get a penalty for killing someone like GalenKnightHawke in game (not that i'd find him in game as he doesn't play in fel, some might even question why he's even bothering to troll this thread when he doesn't play in fel)

I agree with this 100%. There have been rivalries for years in this game. To make people now join the same side isn't cool. Six sides would be a good number. The number should go up from four, not down.

 

[MalagAste]

I have a major problem, especially with the proposed 'traitor' penalty. Here on Europa, we hate each other, I mean people really hate me as much as I hate them, we don't want to end up on the same side. I'd like to see MORE than 4 teams, not less.

There's NO WAY i'm going to join a system where I get a penalty for killing someone like GalenKnightHawke in game (not that i'd find him in game as he doesn't play in fel, some might even question why he's even bothering to troll this thread when he doesn't play in fel)

Well that shows what you know... Just because you don't see "Galen KnightHawke" in Fel does NOT mean he doesn't go there. Only fools would assume that.

I agree with this 100%. There have been rivalries for years in this game. To make people now join the same side isn't cool. Six sides would be a good number. The number should go up from four, not down.

Yes so all the 20 people that play in Fel can be in 6 different guilds... and on some shards the 5 people that play in Fel can do it. Wow... That'll be fun....

Maybe 10 years ago when 2 or 3 hundred people could be found in Fel on any given day it might have worked... but today NO.

 

[Mervyn]

Yes so all the 20 people that play in Fel can be in 6 different guilds... and on some shards the 5 people that play in Fel can do it. Wow... That'll be fun....

Maybe 10 years ago when 2 or 3 hundred people could be found in Fel on any given day it might have worked... but today NO.

There will be hundreds and hundreds of people in fel if the system is done right.

Build it and they will come, not my words, the words of Kevin Costner baby

The majority if account reactivations/deactivations have come from PvP systems being ruined/improved. If done correctly this could make uos population boom to it's highest in a decade. IF DONE CORRECTLY.

 

[MalagAste]

There will be hundreds and hundreds of people in fel if the system is done right.

Build it and they will come, not my words, the words of Kevin mother f***ing Costner baby

I highly doubt it. Half of what made Fel fun in the old days was how you plucked newbs and folk who didn't care to PvP... those people will not be your lambs for the slaughter.... Even if they built a "pre-Tram" shard... which would not happen.... The only people who would be there would be the self same cheaters and hackers and die hards you have now.... who aren't going to be a lamb for the slaughter.... and while it might be fun for a wee while after awhile most the Non-Cheating Non-Hacking players will become fed up and leave again..... leaving deserted like most of fel is now anywhere you go.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Consistent: Marked by Harmony, regularity, or steady continuity.....

1) He who gets out the Dictionary 1st has already lost the argument....
2) Sure by definition EM events occur with regularity & thus are consistent, but personally I wouldn't consider Eating once every 2 weeks regular nor would I base having fun in UO on a 1 hour event once a week......

I appeal to objective sources. I appreciate your frustration when those objective sources do not help you.

OK.. so EM events are your Baby.... I get that, but limiting V-V (Which appears will be a HUGE & drastic change to ALL PvP) to only Fel bc your worried about events is GREEDY. If it's a matter of pleasing the majority I'm betting more people would want V-V in the tram facet then not. What I also don't get is how V-V in Tram changes ANYTHING for EM events. People can still go drop fields / Cast spells / Stand in the wrong spot and generally be annoying, the only difference if V-V was in Tram is you'd potentially see such people misbehaving punished for their deeds if they were in V-V also.....

Your paragraph is an attempt to characterize what I've said as focused only on myself and my needs -- the attempt fails because my thoughts are broader than that, and I've already addressed the actual point you attempt, without success, to raise. *shrugs*

I mean honestly as soon as you start saying going to the dictionary to verify linguistic things means I've lost, then in objective terms you've lost, because it shows that your standard of evidence consists of what you want.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I have a major problem, especially with the proposed 'traitor' penalty. Here on Europa, we hate each other, I mean people really hate me as much as I hate them, we don't want to end up on the same side. I'd like to see MORE than 4 teams, not less.

There's NO WAY i'm going to join a system where I get a penalty for killing someone like GalenKnightHawke in game (not that i'd find him in game as he doesn't play in fel, some might even question why he's even bothering to troll this thread when he doesn't play in fel)

As I've stated repeatedly I've spent a lot of time in Fel but have given up on it for some time. This thread actually is a good indication of why. I got sick of the outcome of fights not mattering as much as what everyone else asserted the outcome of the fight was. In theory in PvP combat the outcome of the actual fight should be what matters. But instead at the end of the day it was all about petty drama, popularity, and social relationships rather than combat.

Took me years to realize that, and leave.

My posts in this thread have been all about arguing against the system's presence in Trammel. The way my arguments have been reacted to is an excellent example of why I left Fel behind not too long ago.

-Galen's player

 

[Promathia]

Well that shows what you know... Just because you don't see "Galen KnightHawke" in Fel does NOT mean he doesn't go there. Only fools would assume that.




Yes so all the 20 people that play in Fel can be in 6 different guilds... and on some shards the 5 people that play in Fel can do it. Wow... That'll be fun....

Maybe 10 years ago when 2 or 3 hundred people could be found in Fel on any given day it might have worked... but today NO.

This times 100. There are not enough people in fel to warrant more than 3 sides IMO. Even on Atlantic, you only ever really see 3 factions out and about.

 

[Mervyn]

I highly doubt it. Half of what made Fel fun in the old days was how you plucked newbs and folk who didn't care to PvP... those people will not be your lambs for the slaughter.... Even if they built a "pre-Tram" shard... which would not happen.... The only people who would be there would be the self same cheaters and hackers and die hards you have now.... who aren't going to be a lamb for the slaughter.... and while it might be fun for a wee while after awhile most the Non-Cheating Non-Hacking players will become fed up and leave again..... leaving deserted like most of fel is now anywhere you go.

How about you play with your dozen trammel friends like Galen, and I play with my 100s and 100s of fel friends if this system is done correctly and we both live happily ever after?

 

[Mervyn]

This times 100. There are not enough people in fel to warrant more than 3 sides IMO. Even on Atlantic, you only ever really see 3 factions out and about.

Yeah that is because factions are broken cos you get statted when killed by predominantly non faction players, there are more than 3 guilds on atlantic who dislike each other though i am sure. On Europa our guild is the only big faction guild, but we're constantly battling it out with more than 3 other opposing non faction guilds who also dislike each other.

 

[Varrius]

This times 100. There are not enough people in fel to warrant more than 3 sides IMO. Even on Atlantic, you only ever really see 3 factions out and about.

Why would you care if there are 2 sides or 100 sides? The more sides there are, then the less amount of people before one of these battle arenas start, which is fine. Why are you so gung-ho on having teammates that you have never played with?

 

[The Zog historian]

I have a major problem, especially with the proposed 'traitor' penalty. Here on Europa, we hate each other, I mean people really hate me as much as I hate them, we don't want to end up on the same side. I'd like to see MORE than 4 teams, not less.

There's NO WAY i'm going to join a system where I get a penalty for killing someone like GalenKnightHawke in game (not that i'd find him in game as he doesn't play in fel, some might even question why he's even bothering to troll this thread when he doesn't play in fel)

So what did you do in factions' heyday, when there was a 25% chance of finding your guild on the same side as an enemy guild? Did you bounce around, including when enemies joined a faction after you? A good lesson for you is when Siege opened, and a lot of Sonoma's biggest PvP rivals joined forces to see what they could accomplish together.

I don't know which is more absurd, your desire for "MORE than 4 teams" or your claim of "hundreds" of people in Felucca. What it smells like is that your guild wants as many orange as possible, so that you can hide, let everyone else fight each other, then finish off the last few standing if you can.

 

[Promathia]

Afer pvping on the majority of shards, nowadays its always usually 2-3 main pvp guilds with maybe some really small randoms sprinkled on each side. If you cant even have more than 4 sides in normal pvp or factions, why do people think THIS system means you can have things like 6+?

Sure, some shards may have more than 2-3 main pvp guilds, but you cant base a whole system on only a few shards.


Heres a test, if you were to pop a harrower on your shard right now, what guilds show up to fight? Im talking a guilds that have an ACTUAL chance to win? Its RARE if its more than 3.


** This system wont mean all the sudden trammies will flock to fel. They will still not be as good as the pvpers, they will still die, and there may not be statloss but they sure as hell will get the wounded debuff. And after not getting help from the pvp guilds, and getting picked off over and over, they will stop going, just like they always do.

UO's population is not big enough to be concerned with "Getting more people to fel". This is all concerned with, KEEPING the people already IN fel busy / playing the game.

Dont want to fight with a few random people? Dont go to the fights. Just use the system as an excuse to pvp at yew gate like so many other fel guilds do.

 

[Varrius]

Well tbh, I don't really plan on doing these new fights. What do you mean "use the system as an excuse to pvp at yew gate". Why do you need an excuse to pvp there? That is where most of the pvp takes place on Atl. You don't need an excuse to do it. I and I'm sure a lot of players would like more people to fight, not more people on their side. If most of these small shards don't have more than 2-3 guilds in different factions now, why is it a problem to have, let's say 6 different sides? Those guilds will still stay in their 2-3 different sides. What problem will that cause?

 

[Kage]

How about we just fix the current system??? Remove faction arties, and Horses make the normal artifacts just as powerful as faction artifacts so that people don't have to remake their suits....

Create New non faction mounts that are just as powerful as the faction mounts, and can be resurrected with a single bandaid just like we can do to the faction horses now.

Create a reason to fight for the towns Example: Put in buffs like the Governor sytem 5 swing speed increase, 5 Hit Chance Increase, 5 Defense Increase, Luck Bonus 200 , ETC....

Fix the bugs and stop adding things that the player base doesn't need or want....

 

[Rupert Avery]

My thoughts are as follows:

First though I would like to say this should of been posted on UO.com with a link to the contact form for feedback.. Perhaps even a separate email address for this feedback.

So my thoughts..

No reason to remove the horses.. Only issue is you cannot control them when not in a faction..

Why name it Virtue & Vice? Why not Order Vs Chaos again.. That system was good and brought about great guild battles back in the day!

I like the fact of a complete over haul, however like with the armour changes that were over complicated this system needs to be something simple. At the end of the day people want to be able to rally the troops on both sides and meet at the Bridge south of Britain for a good old bottle neck battle not have to jump through hoops just to get up to scratch...

 

[Multi Dwagon]

Afer pvping on the majority of shards, nowadays its always usually 2-3 main pvp guilds with maybe some really small randoms sprinkled on each side. If you cant even have more than 4 sides in normal pvp or factions, why do people think THIS system means you can have things like 6+?

Sure, some shards may have more than 2-3 main pvp guilds, but you cant base a whole system on only a few shards.


Heres a test, if you were to pop a harrower on your shard right now, what guilds show up to fight? Im talking a guilds that have an ACTUAL chance to win? Its RARE if its more than 3.


** This system wont mean all the sudden trammies will flock to fel. They will still not be as good as the pvpers, they will still die, and there may not be statloss but they sure as hell will get the wounded debuff. And after not getting help from the pvp guilds, and getting picked off over and over, they will stop going, just like they always do.

UO's population is not big enough to be concerned with "Getting more people to fel". This is all concerned with, KEEPING the people already IN fel busy / playing the game.

Dont want to fight with a few random people? Dont go to the fights. Just use the system as an excuse to pvp at yew gate like so many other fel guilds do.

I remember when I just started to PvP, it was under the Order vs Chaos era, hell, I were easier than a mongbat, even tho I died alot, it was the most fun I had.

I do envy those players who will just have their first PvP experience with this new idea.

This is the main problem in the pvp scene, old pvpers don't like to adapt to new ideas, they want new content but it should stay the same, make sense oO, and anyone who ain't a old pvper is a total scrub, and will get insta flamed on general chat if they die at Yew gate for example. I would love to see new blood in fel, and I think this idea is a way for them to join in.

About the harrower claim, for years I have raided and started harrowers, mainly becouse to get a fight, not to actually do the harrower and 'win', it's the same way with champs, it gets more fun when u have a fight somewhere else than just at yew gate. I also beleive that there is more players who joins a harrower raid is for only one reason, to pvp, not to win over the harrower.

 

[hen]

Just call it Order v Chaos please.

 

[FrejaSP]

Don't think they can, as that would force them changes a lot old code where this names are used, Order/Chaos Shields, Chaos shine, I don't know, there may be a lot in the code using this names.
I like Virtue vs Vice even when I'm not all sure how to translate Vice.
I do feel the way to start the battles sounds a little complicated but as long they can fight in Fel and Siege too without have to do the step to start a battle, it may be all fine.

 

[G.v.P]

I have a major problem, especially with the proposed 'traitor' penalty. Here on Europa, we hate each other, I mean people really hate me as much as I hate them, we don't want to end up on the same side. I'd like to see MORE than 4 teams, not less.

I just can't agree. Factions had four sides and didn't work on nearly any shard because we just don't have enough people playing overall (and because they got rid of the player balance check). I understand some shards had it work a little better, but 1v1 is a much better system for the majority of the shards due to a lack of players. It's also a LOT easier for EA to manage.

Honestly, if you don't like the traitor penalty, and want more than 5 teams, you should focus on individual wars with individual guilds. No system will work for everyone, and from what you're saying not even the old factions really worked for you. For the majority, though, four sides wasn't working the way they had it, and almost everyone wanted the return of an Order/Chaos system. It's too bad this new one is Fel only.

There's NO WAY i'm going to join a system where I get a penalty for killing someone like GalenKnightHawke in game (not that i'd find him in game as he doesn't play in fel, some might even question why he's even bothering to troll this thread when he doesn't play in fel)

lawl.

 

[Warpig Inc]

I just like fight and kill people. Now there is going to be a place that players gather? Long live the rogue ronin that doesn't pick sides. Sweeeeet. Sure those little wheels are turning in some heads that have that play style. Just not me.

 

[Kage]

Just call it Order v Chaos please.

They can't do that for some reason I forgot what the reason is I'm thinking it might be a legal issue but I'm not 100% sure.


THIS

How about we just fix the current system??? Remove faction arties, and Horses make the normal artifacts just as powerful as faction artifacts so that people don't have to remake their suits....

Create New non faction mounts that are just as powerful as the faction mounts, and can be resurrected with a single bandaid just like we can do to the faction horses now.

Create a reason to fight for the towns Example: Put in buffs like the Governor sytem 5 swing speed increase, 5 Hit Chance Increase, 5 Defense Increase, Luck Bonus 200 , ETC....

Fix the bugs and stop adding things that the player base doesn't need or want....

 

[Daelomin]

Put together a focused group of players and collaborate a design that is balanced and in the best interest of the game. Discussing this in Uhall will only result in the wrong people being involved...
Like it was done in 2008 with the Council of War focus group...

 

[Gedgerez Tesherd]

I have already made my peace with the state of factions on most servers, & haven't participated in small skirmishes since 2009 roughly. The concept to bring battlegrounds into UO is interesting, but alone It isn't enough to populate or bring people to Felucca on any level of comparison as to what Factions & Order/Chaos developed for many years. This new addition however adds an extra perc of playing in Felucca, so I can't be opposed to it, despite my personal opinion as to the aspects involved with temporary participation game mechanics.

I will however address a question as to the involvement of future pvp:
Assuming the game continues on the path it is going with condensed shard population, will players be able to interact with pvp within Trammel, Ilshenar, Malas, Tokuno, & Ter Mur on non Mugen / Siege shards? Will this V & V include future functionality to get involved with random skirmishes outside of Felucca as to the degree that Order & Chaos once allowed?

-Perhaps a solution to allow solo pvp activity outside of the battlegrounds with V & V would be to allow an option to flag yourself attackable in all facets which would persist until leaving V & V.

Through personal experience I know that the majority of guilds do not send & receive war invitations these days on a regular basis outside of limited Role Playing, seeing how I have tried for years to send declarations to various guilds. I eventually withdrew from the desire to seek out pvp outside of Felucca, & rarely find the opportunity to get involved with it while in Felucca on several empty non Mugen/Siege shards. I am not saying this will increase the level or amount of pvp on a singular or group basis, but at the least It could create an extra reason to participate in V & V if the said individual does not go to Felucca.

 

[Cardell]

A lot of people who were late-comers to Factions, and who used it as an excuse to get items and to fight and did not care about the RP aspects or more-tactical/strategic aspects, have been allowed by longer-term Factioners such as yourself to dominate the discussions.

While so many people were concerned with the essentially mythical problem of "Trammies" who wore the artifacts in Trammel and ignored Fel, the real issue, as I'd stated repeatedly, was people who joined Factions for the l33t items and an excuse to fight.

The new system caters to those people -- the inevitable product of those folks being allowed to dominate the discussion.

It will work well enough for them, and I suspect strongly that this'll be done and probably be somewhat successful.

As to those such as yourself who were into the more all-encompassing and strategic sense of Factions, and such as myself, who was into the RP aspects of Factions......

Oh well.

-Galen's player

The real issue with the factions are the people who joined the pvp system to fight? I'm not exactly sure what the point of your post is.. It's really just a bunch of words that add up to +1 post for you...

The new system is a very poor system. Outright. It wont work for "them". No doubt about that at all. A pvp system needs a lot more than 2 teams and a bunch of people who want to kill each other. Unfortunately.... I think we all wish it was that easy. In order for any system to thrive it needs to be interesting and captivating. This new system is simply a death match that good pvpers will force all other players out of and participation will die out really fast.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

In case it is not obvious: Calling it Order and Chaos wouldn't make sense in the present context.

The current King is the creator of Chaos and he's in effect ruling as much from Order as from his own belief system. (As makes sense, given that most of his people follow Order and the Virtues.)

Order and Chaos arguably never quite made fictional sense as it was. The 2 main guys played chess and alternately seduced the same frightened scullery maid (OK, I made that 2nd part up; heavy Game of Thrones influence there), while their followers slaughtered each other in the streets.

Someone I knew back on LS, who's main character was a follower of Chaos but not in the Order/Chaos system, said she managed to get out of one of the team members the following explanation for that seeming contradiction: "These [meaning the Order/Chaos participants] are the fanatics."

Not the strongest rationale back then, and rather weak at present.

Not to mention that this system appears primarily to be a replacement for Factions, which was (and I guess technically still is, as it's not dead just yet) about the fate of the Felucca facet. Order/Chaos basically was just cross-facet street fighting, something that easily can be accomplished by warring guilds.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

The real issue with the factions are the people who joined the pvp system to fight? I'm not exactly sure what the point of your post is.. It's really just a bunch of words that add up to +1 post for you...

Factions was more than direct confrontation fighting, as I believe I thought you knew. Maybe I was wrong? I guess so!

So let me tell you, then: There was thievery, stealthing, PvMing for the currency, strategic alliance making, and control of territory.

The crowd that came in after the artifacts only wanted the fighting at best, and at worst ignored actual Faction play to do everything in Fel except Factions.

I appreciate how many folks need desperately to cling to the fantasy that "Trammies" were the issue. But the biggest "Trammie" in recent years in Factions was myself. And I rarely wore Artifacts and frequently was found at the stronghold.

But, really, reality doesn't matter here, does it.

*shrugs*

The new system is a very poor system. Outright. It wont work for "them". No doubt about that at all. A pvp system needs a lot more than 2 teams and a bunch of people who want to kill each other. Unfortunately.... I think we all wish it was that easy. In order for any system to thrive it needs to be interesting and captivating. This new system is simply a death match that good pvpers will force all other players out of and participation will die out really fast.

On the contrary, if you look at their actual words, in this thread and others, many are outright calling for the return of Order/Chaos, which had combat, and cool shields.

The system probably will do pretty well, but when it doesn't do as well as expected the participants will blame the system when in reality they merely have tremendously over-estimated the actual interest in PvP and/or in Fel. But it'll do well enough to justify its existence, I think.

-Galen's player

 

[PJay]

I don't have a problem during the battles for the shrine having to be allied with the Virtue you have chosen however out of the battle the Traitor tag cannot be applied for killing a member in the same virtue. That way you get people comming together for the shrine battles but then out of those battles your in your own guilds.

 

[Cardell]

I appreciate how many folks need desperately to cling to the fantasy that "Trammies" were the issue. But the biggest "Trammie" in recent years in Factions was myself. And I rarely wore Artifacts and frequently was found at the stronghold.

-Galen's player

I guess this is what I'm getting hung up on. I said nothing about tram players and that statement has nothing to do with my post all.

The point of my post is the system is good and it can be fixed. The people doing the fixing are not capable of doing it alone. No one can argue with that fact that there were HUGE spikes in participation in the factions (all aspects of it) when changes were made. That tells me there are plenty of people who want to use the system, just not a broken one. It was only when people realized that the changes that were made were not enough that it started slowing down again. Things like leaving the point system broke for years just destroyed the community. It's fixable is my point.

They are scrapping an incredible system because they don't know how it works, how to fix it, or how to attract people to it. The new system, like the chaos and order system will die out. Why would they scrap factions completely for a chaos and order system that has nothing to do with factions anyway?... The 2 systems can both exist. They are using the new death match system as an excuse to remove a system they don't know how to fix and thats sad. It shows they never tried to apply themselves to fixing it in the first place OR that they are just so far out of touch with that play style they are not qualified to design a fix. I'm not trying to insult them, I'm just trying to help them realize the situation, so they can find someone who can help.

 

[SlobberKnocker]

this looks good. like the concept so far.

I heard there will be a conjurers garb with 10 dci mr4 hpr4 240 luck....

 

[Minerva Foxglove]

Im no PvPer and never will be, but still ill be happy if this becomes a success as everything that draws ppl to UO or makes the existing stay is great for us all. I remember fights occuring here and there between Order/Chaos people and guild wars in cities and everywhere. It was interesting to watch and I figure some people could become interested and go for it after watching. As it is now everything happens in Felucca and and you dont see with your own eyes how it works ..its a big step to take to jump the pink gate and start up. How can a Trammel player find out what ppl or guild he likes, and ask for help to join in? Whats the reasons that this V&V thing cant go on in all facets?

 

[Sargon]

Just call it Order v Chaos please.

I agree with this.

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

I am not a proponent of major change for the sake of change, but if the consensus is that Factions has to go, I believe it should be replaced with something that enhances/promotes PVP. We may have to see this in work to know if it does that.

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

This would be a real shame. It's part of our game history. I'd be sad to see it just simply erased.

I tend to agree with this. Even if deactivated, they should remain in game.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I guess this is what I'm getting hung up on. I said nothing about tram players and that statement has nothing to do with my post all.

Oh; ok.

Here's an explanation of why I said stuff like that.

After Faction Artifacts emerged, in my judgment and observation, Factions became dominated by hard-core, direct confrontation PvPers who saw Factions as a means to get the best gear available, but didn't care much about Factions itself. They participated to some degree but not like, say, you, the Granny Thieves of Great Lakes, or to a lesser degree even myself. And mostly they used the Artifacts to do Fel stuff that was not Factions and mostly ignored Factions.

However, the conventional wisdom emerged that those folks weren't the real problem, but rather that the problem was Trammel players who wore the artifacts in Trammel and didn't go to Felucca at all. That's why the Artifacts are ephemeral in Trammel, as far as I can tell: The UO team bought into that conventional wisdom. I found that conventional wisdom to be very much incorrect.

I had thought that you were one of the purveyors of that conventional wisdom.

If I was wrong about that, then I apologize.

Further, my posts would've been totally incomprehensible to you, because I was reacting to something I'd incorrectly thought you said.

So if you weren't one of those folks, then sorry.

-Galen's player

 

[OMG A GIANT ROCK]

How about we just fix the current system??? Remove faction arties, and Horses make the normal artifacts just as powerful as faction artifacts so that people don't have to remake their suits....

Create New non faction mounts that are just as powerful as the faction mounts, and can be resurrected with a single bandaid just like we can do to the faction horses now.

Create a reason to fight for the towns Example: Put in buffs like the Governor sytem 5 swing speed increase, 5 Hit Chance Increase, 5 Defense Increase, Luck Bonus 200 , ETC....

Fix the bugs and stop adding things that the player base doesn't need or want....

I have fought against Kage and his guild for 2+ years and I absolutely hate all of them. But this ^^ is exactly what needs to happen. Which means a lot if I really dislike their guild.. I have 5 vets that would return INSTANTLY if factions returned to the normal status. A lot of people are saying "old pvpers don't want changes". I'm 17 I'm not even old and the reason I dislike this so much is not due to it being a change, but rather due to it being unnecessary and unreasonable. If this gets put out and especially if the "no stat-loss" gets put out. I'm done with this game and turning my account off that minute. Everyone should atleast have a 5 minute stat due to dying. DYING means you lose sorry not you have some punishment. Not a ridiculous "wounded" buff and get special bonuses like a handicap when you die. That is completely ridiculous. Also another thing I dislike, 75% of the all the people commenting on this thread are trammys and don't fight in fel and have never stepped in fel. So why are they deciding the only facet I play in ? They have Ilsh, Malas, Tram, Tokuno Islands, and Ter Mur to decide stuff in. Let the pvpers decide fel ideas. If you don't pvp please just don't comment on this thread.
Factions were perfect before the change. (besides the millions of points but I didn't care)
Factions were changed due to trammys crying about another trammy had MR 3 on his Orny and that trammy didn't know how to do it.
Trammys are now still deciding Fel ideas and events.
That's why factions died.
This will be 100% death of factions. Don't put this into the game. Fix the new ideas please, I'm like begging you. The only reason I play is to put people in stat. That's the only reason. The shrines is a good idea but why allow a guild to keep resurrecting for 3 hours due to mass numbers and allow them to be stronger after they resurrect?
That's my thoughts on this subject, I feel like rambling, but I just can't get through enough for you to understand this will be the ultimate death of factions and pvp.
-Zora

 

[Mithryl Elves]

I agree with Kage too. I came back to UO about a year ago solely for the current faction system and the PVP it brings. UO is leaps and bounds ahead of even the new games with PVP and I don't want to see it screwed up.

With that said, I'm already seeing the same hoard of players in this thread who don't even PVP and won't PVP later but somehow they are "experts" in PVP and its happenings. Are there any PVPers involved in this process or just people who paint freaking masks? If you want this system call it Order/Chaos and bring that back. You can still fight for lolshrines. I've never EVER cared about shrines in this game. Like really who cares?

The only thing wrong with factions now is statloss. It was added solely so that a defending party had downtime if attackers raided successfully. They wanted to assure that the attackers had ample time to reset the sigils. With the current faction system having all of the risk vs reward that it needs having statloss too is overkill and a huge deterrent. 20 minutes is too long. Make it like 5 minutes if you have to but 20 is too long. Current risk (Targetable anywhere in Felucca) with current reward (Faction Artifacts) is already there. Factions are not broken completely to where they need reworked. They just need some quick fixes.

 

[Mithryl Elves]

Zora great post man. I just got home and after catching the link from Careless on ICQ I read a few pages, read Kage, saw your wall of text and posted. You pretty much said exactly what I saw man and see it too. I like and get along with some of the trammel players in this thread posting and yes some like Galen have pvp'd in the past but I do not agree that those players who do not pvp now and haven't in years should be able to decide my playstyle now too.

 

[chad]

You have got to be kidding me. You want to fix factions? This is not the way... I don't care if this system is added, but it should not replace factions.

Factions by nature are PvP oriented. People can PvP without factions, of course, so what could offer enough incentive to make people actively participate in factions? The faction artifacts can stay or go, it's really irrelevant at this point in the game. An improved version of war horses is the best option in my opinion.

1. If you own the cities, your war horses are instantly bonded. The moment you lose a city you bought a warhorse from, your warhorse becomes unbonded and turns into a normal horse.
2. War horses have additional bonuses to them vs normal mounts.
A. Able to be resurrected via bandages, like the current system.
B. When dismounted from a war horse, the remount timer is cut in half.
C. Return the ability to preemptively load a bola while on a war horse.
THAT'S ALL FACTIONS NEED.

It has no effect on players in trammel, but it is a huge bonus to those who PvP.

 

[CovenantX]

What are our high level goals for this new system?

1. Provide an objective based PvP experience.
2. Offer a sufficient level of gear that allows playing multiple shards to find the fight on whichever shard it may be occurring on.
3. Provide appropriate rewards to incentivize group efforts while engaging the system.
4. Incorporate Ultima’s Virtues as the basis for participating.

The goals look straight forward, I hope these goals are met.

What will happen to the current faction system?
1. All aspects of the current faction system will be removed.
2. All currently existing faction artifacts will be allowed to expire via the “Moonbound” property.
3. All faction vendors and faction NPCs will be removed.
4. Town stones and faction bases will be removed.

Honestly, I do not agree with the whole faction system being "removed", Instead it would make more sense to incorporate these ideas into the faction system.

How will Virtue & Vice work?

1. There are two opposing sides, one representing “Virtue” and one representing “Vice”
2. Each side will have an encampment located somewhere in the overworld where they can get limited amounts of gear similar to old faction gear for free, with additional gear being available for purchase. Each side will also get a mount. These encampments will only be accessible by members of its respective team.
3. Gear will be functionally useful in Felucca only.
4. If a guild participates in Virtue & Vice all members of that guild are automatically enrolled.
5. A single account can only affiliate with one team at a time. You may join multiple characters, but all account characters must be on the same team.
6. The system will track the number of players logged in to each team, when a threshold is met a battle will begin.

1. keep it at 4 Opposing sides, most active pvp shards (as other's have mentioned) do have more than 2 pvp guilds that enjoy fighting each other, or they just don't get along with one another to be on the "same side", the faction system already supports this multi-team fights.

2. these encampments are already placed and functional (Faction bases),

3. This is the biggest thing that (IMO) could have completely saved UO from publish 77s faction butchering, If this is possible, why wasn't this done long ago? It allows artifacts to be easier to obtain for "PVP use-only" instead of players joining on their "Trammie chars" to farm things in non-pvp areas.

4. this is going to need a bit more thoroughly explained, reading the post I assumed the "teams" would be fighting at shrines, this, to me, suggests it's a "Que" that possibly teleports each team-member to a battle-field of some sort?

5. Factions already has this, though there was (maybe still is an exploit) that allows players to join multiple factions on the same account ?

6. Add this to the faction stone, in each faction base, If possible it would be absolutely amazing if you could allow even enemy factions to view who is on, in opposing factions as well. (easy confirmation of numbers in each faction.

How do battles work?

1. At the beginning of each battle a random shrine that hasn’t already been featured in a battle will be chosen.
2. Players on each team will be notified that a shrine has been identified for battle.
3. Battles are objective based on the following:

a. When only 1 team is present in the vicinity of a shrine that team will begin claiming the shrine.
b. If at any time a living member of the opposing team is present in the vicinity of the shrine claiming will cease.
c. Visual cues at the shrine will indicate which team is currently claiming points for that shrine.
d. When resurrected in battle players will receive a “wounded” debuff that provides a damage modifier to incoming damage.
e. If a team reaches a victory threshold for holding the shrine they will be declared victors of that battle.
f. Following a battle there will be a cool down before the system checks to see if the population threshold has been met to begin another battle.

Sound's like this could be really fun, especially if you guys could incorporate it in with the already-existing faction system an keep it divided up between 4 teams instead of 2. giving people something to fight over (the shrine, which potentially will reward the victors with some sort of buff).
I really like the idea of "Wounded" debuff, in-place of stat-loss. 5-10 minutes would probably be better than 20 though.

What happens after a battle has concluded?

1. Each shrine that is claimed will give a buff to the members of the team who claim it, while providing a lesser consolation buff to the losing team.
a. After all eight shrines have been cycled through for battle, the team with the most shrines will receive rewards.
2. In the event of a 4-4 tie, the Chaos shrine will be the tie breaker.

1. Awesome, rewarding both sides, it's not really such a big deal if you lose, Well maybe, We need to know what kind of "Buffs" we're talkin about here... (I assume they're going to be pretty equivalent to that of Trade Deals from the Governors.

2. Hopefully there would be a way to divide this 4 ways, (or maybe keep this "tie" 2 ways) but have the two "evil" factions (SL/Minax) vs two "good" factions (TB/Com) would probably work out for the shards that have multiple enemy guilds.

 

[Gedgerez Tesherd]

@ OMG A GIANT ROCK & to whom it may concern,

I kicked back while thinking back of former battles from the beginning days of Factions. Putting people in stat was definitely a pure thrill, but the direction the devs are taking this is clearly aimed at a larger demography other than just the Felucca players (which have openly voiced good changes for Factions in former posts for years). They're hoping this 'Battleground' will appeal to not only new players, but guilds stationed in all facets. Put simply, there is such a small % base of Felucca left on any server other than Atl & GL (excluding Mugen/Siege) that all former post have inspired no real development to change the system thus far. Sure there have been failed attempts with former dev teams with Factions, but with the shape of things right now only a handful of players still participate. Lore Denin made post after post about logical & reasonable revamp changes, & did that help? When you mentioned about fighting against rivals & what not, for me, I don't just see people as rivals, but rather fellow Feluccians. It was an honor & privilege to have shared blood & mud together. It will sadden all of whom were apart of Factions to see it dissolve if this proposed change goes forward. I have formerly been apart of such guilds that had their own faction unit since the beginning of Factions in 2002 till around 2009 with guilds such as SoV, Z-T, FS!, CP, SSG, R*A, PEE, ==P, O*E, -R-, LTS, UZI, RiD, & P^r (2.0). That is only a segment of Faction timeline history I was involved will from only GL. Peoples voice on this thread whom pvp'd formerly matters just as much as whom actively do with Factions. I recognize 4 on this thread that were former rivals at one point, & I can name off dozens that would return on not 1 shard, but over 7 shards if changes were carried out in such a manor that Lore Denin had gone into detail over (sorry I don't care to dig through & find his posts). Lore Denin battled along side me & other fellow colleges in which we developed a plan to stimulate Faction play around 2007ish (my 5th real attempt, not counting solo play) carrying out Faction operations with troops, scouting, sigil guarding, sigil stealing, base occupation, base raiding, trap placement, & trap disarming with the guild RiD. That lasted for over one years worth of activity on GL, & I was thankful for whom participated in each Faction. The real question is where do we go from here? Is this thread an attempt to sway popular demand with the implementation of V & V Battlegrounds? Is there a tally of votes being held about the cancellation of Factions? Now's the time to speak up people, or forever hold your peace. I vote NO with the cancellation of Factions, but does that mean we can't also have V & V Battlegrounds?

 

[aHolyCow]

I don't like what you're doing here. My first real pvp memory in uo was getting my first 1v1 kill just outside SL base on my fencer when it was a random specials (paralyzing blow with a long spear), no toggled specials. So long ago I can't even tell you what year. Before trammel, that's for sure. All the fencers would pray for regular hit, paralyzing blow, regular hit - cus with the tribal spear that was geegeeeee

You're taking a great open world pvp system and turning it into instanced pvp crap. I always held UO in a higher regard as an MMO do to the interaction with much of the world, factions being one of them, spawns helping reinforce that..

I support your new system but I say leave factions untouched while you're doing it, and re implement this as a new feature completely.

I hate when developers change a game so much over time it's no longer the same game, like with WoW and many more. Everything turned instanced and boring. No exploration, no vast open landscapes that have an actual use. It's already happened to UO since pub 16 but factions and spawns were a major backbone in the games history to me and removing either is just dumb.

Yes, I hated it when you removed chaos and order. It was a part of UO lore to me.

The more you strip away from the game the more it no longer remains what it once was - the best MMO in history.

 

[Careless05]

Factions do not need to be done away with and the people who play solely in felucca are all here agreeing to that point. Implement something else fine, but fix factions first and then do whatever else you want. Honestly i don't think it would be worth the time and money put into it to do it. Waste of time. Keep factions, just fix them.

Make it so stat only lasts 5 minutes. 20 is to much but there still needs to be a thrill to killing someone and putting them out of the fight for a bit. Either make faction artifacts much cheaper or do away with them all together and just make normal artifacts have those properties so people don't have to change suits around.

There should be incentive for fighting for towns, like kage said. THAT would give people a reason to pvp in factions, a reason to fight, and it wouldn't be terribly overpowering. Just a good reason to control towns and claim victory and get a slight boost for being on top and makes others want to take it back from you.

Faction horses do not need changing, their still plenty more powerful than other horses. Doing what chad said would make playing a gargoyle extremely underpowered in factions and make the horses wayyyyyyy too powerful, especially since anyone not in factions wouldn't get those crazy advantages. no no no

Make it so factioners have to do at least 51% of the damage to you to stat you. Shouldn't go stat to to 5 bluebies when it was 1 orange that popped out of stealth and dismounted you, only to laugh as you get statted. If he had a faction crew on you and a blue did like 17% of the dmg and the three oranges did the other 83% then sure, stat should take affect.

Fix points. the system now is horrible, how about 1 point per kill.

 

[Lythos-]

Factions is nothing like it used to be. There used to be people holding sigs and base fighting daily. I see very little of that. The whole system is not noob friendly. Someone that wants to try pvp will have a hard time adjusting not getting punished 20min for not being good. It's also so frustrating to get ganked by 4-5 people and one tiny hit from a faction player can put you into stat. Before that it was trying to keep rank enough to even wear the faction arties.

If you guys want to keep factions send in feedback. I could care less if it goes or stays. It's been broken so long i no longer care if it's available or not. I think this new system would be amazing if done right from the start. It would allow longer constant fighting which may draw some old vets back as well as not being so harsh with a stat loss to maybe drawn some new players in to try.

 

[OMG A GIANT ROCK]

Factions is nothing like it used to be. There used to be people holding sigs and base fighting daily. I see very little of that. The whole system is not noob friendly. Someone that wants to try pvp will have a hard time adjusting not getting punished 20min for not being good. It's also so frustrating to get ganked by 4-5 people and one tiny hit from a faction player can put you into stat. Before that it was trying to keep rank enough to even wear the faction arties.

If you guys want to keep factions send in feedback. I could care less if it goes or stays. It's been broken so long i no longer care if it's available or not. I think this new system would be amazing if done right from the start. It would allow longer constant fighting which may draw some old vets back as well as not being so harsh with a stat loss to maybe drawn some new players in to try.

This "constant" playing is what is the problem. HI-5 popped a harrower at 10 p.m. central time the other day. The fight ended at 2:00 a.m. when I decided to log out. The problem was that HI-5 probably had 100+ kill counts on NAP LNR EVO LD N2D2 and other guilds that were all fighting AGAINST HI-5. At the end I think Ezra counted about 28 people rushing the harrower when we finally died. But we held that harrower and killed everyone NUMEROUS times for 6 hours. Now why should the blues, that have no lives, and can stay up extremely late due to no girlfriends or jobs win the fight due to they can keep rezzing and coming back? IF there was a 5 minute stat loss for EVERY death in fel, that would still have fights that last a while, but it would also help the skilled players win the objective (like the harrower). Why are 10 people skilled enough to hold off 28 blues for 6 hours punished because they can just keep rezzing up and get into the fight. AND NOW, they want to give a buff to people who die? That's ridiculous.


Mesanna, if you read this, this is how to fix factions.
1. Keep ephermal on the Artifacts. That was a great idea, props on that.
2. Get rid of the timer or get rid of rank and pay the regular price of silver every month (5k for orny) instead of 45k silver or whatever ridiculous amount it is.
3.Go back to the regular point distribution. No assists, no heals, no blues statting me.
That is all that you have to do and the whole faction system will be fixed.

Keep factions. Implement this V v V or whatever it is. But wiping out factions will not bring more fighting but rather less fighting. People in trammel who are die-hard trammys will never pvp in there life if you gave them insta-one-hit-kill weapons against real pvpers. They don't like it, they like going to events. They like masks, they don't like fighting other people. It's their nature and you're not going to change that. But for the people whose nature is PvP combat, fix the system in the right way. Don't wipe out the only thing keeping most of the pvp together for the chance that some trammys might go to Fel.

- Zora

 

[BmBlackmage]

I rarely post on forums, but felt I had to take some sort of measure, as I still derive some entertainment from playing this game (aka, killing other people). I agree with the majority of the Feluccan players posting on here; fix factions. Create the V v V system if you want, but the main thing killing pvp right now are penalties for pvping (and bugs :x). Get rid of 20 minute stat loss, (5-10 minutes is sufficient), and change the flagging rules (like Careless said) so that you don't get stat loss from fighting blues. Pvping blues and getting guard whacked, or just killed, should not cause stat loss because I attacked an orange an hour ago. My preference for this is actually to have stat loss scaled based on how much damage was done by oranges, with say a maximum of 10-15 minutes of stat if just killed by an orange, and say 5-10 minutes if killed by oranges and blues (50-50). Dunno if that could be coded that way, so for simplicity, just make stat shorter.

Easy fixes without designing an entirely new system and spending $$ on developing something that could be put to better use (SUCH AS FIXING PVP BUGS THAT HAVE BEEN IN THE GAME FOREVER!). That would really do wonders for the pvp population. If the intent of this change is to encourage people that play in trammel to participate in PvP... They've had over a decade to do so. They've made their choice, and while I do believe that some people would come to fel to play, I think that this sort of change may also precipitate an exodus of pvpers, that really only play because they like factions.

Choose carefully EA, the majority of pvp is still factions, and that is for a reason.