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Classic Shard #2

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Archie

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
...

And who are these "many others"? Because, as it stands now, you appear to be the only person who believes that special moves added balance, when anyone who actually PvP'd back then and didnt hide in trammel all day long will tell you special moves threw everything out of balance.

...

People want T2A to be the main era for the classic server, with appropriate fixes and patches to correct some of the old problems the game had, nothing more. They dont want a boondogle hodgepodge frankenstein patched together with stuff from all over the place.
(Sorry in advance that this turned into a novelette!)

UO:R PvP brought more viable templates to the field. I think hally mage duelers prefer that specific T2A era with insta-hit and precast, because there was some level of skill required to prevail, and because of effective combos that had a decent chance of quickly doing major damage to an opponent.

But for most of T2A there were no runebooks or potion kegs, which came in as a part of Cleanup Britannia. There was no secure house trading gump until towards the end of T2A, which was a detriment for someone wanting to purchase a house back when the prime spots for big houses were all taken. At one point, house deeds could be stolen, which meant someone could work for weeks or months to acquire an expensive house deed only to have it stolen in a second in the carpentry shop. (Fun for some, I suppose, but not what I would consider a welcoming environment for the general population. Some mechanism needs to be in place to mitigate that kind of imbalance, and newbie house deeds served that purpose.)

T2A didn't always have insta-hit and pre-cast. In the beginning of the era, archers still rocked, only to be nerfed. Tank thieves were nerfed. The era of the hally mage being the (slightly) overpowered template was born. But all that really happened was a few overpowered templates were replaced with another overpowered template. (And the 5x+2 mage and 5x+2 dexxer cookie cutter templates became prevalent in people's minds as the best way to compete.)

UO:R PvP might not have been balanced, but it did open up more viable templates. Alas, it also brought more of a luck element into PvP combat, which could have been brought under control by more stringent penalties to using special moves and having all special moves be player controlled.

But what you really are saying is that YOU want a classic server with the specific era that YOU enjoyed the most, and not that "people" want that, although I pretty much agree with you that a majority of PvPers might favor mid-to-late T2A with insta-hit and pre-cast. But UO is not just a PvP game. Some of the changes made the game less challenging and fun, IMO, but they came about for a reason, and that reason was the imbalances in the game that allowed a small minority of players to effectively disrupt the playstyles of a majority of players without real consequences, or with consequences that created different problems. (Stat loss encourages ganking of easy targets and running from battle, for example.)

Personally I prefer pre-T2A, before the anatomy and meditation changes, because that's when I had the most fun, lol. A slight nerf to archery and that would be my preferred era. But I figure I'm in a minority on that one, so my second choice would be the UO:R era (fel rules) because it opened up more templates. But I'd change the way special moves were implemented, allow pre-cast, and get rid of insta-hit. In a world of faster computers and better Internet connections, players should be able to outmaneuver an opponent's swing. I wouldn't be overly concerned with a combat system that favored cookie-cutter templates or preserving what was enjoyed by a small minority of duelers.

Concerning custom houses, well, I don't care, but in reading through the message boards, apparently enough people do care to have multiple accounts for their houses. I think that feature alone has helped keep UO alive so that we would even bother to have this discussion. I don't have a problem with custom housing -- it gives players an outlet for their creativity -- and I'd prefer UO:R housing over T2A housing, strictly for the expanded number of choices, some of which I thought were nicely implemented. (Small towers and log cabins come to mind, although I had friends who really enjoyed their villas for some reason.) So I say yes to UO:R housing, as well.

Another advantage I see with using UO:R as the base rule set, with fixes to special attacks, or perhaps their removal, is that if the classic shard proves to be a winner, assuming there is one, then it seems logical to me to open a Trammel version on a different shard. I suppose it's possible to open a T2A shard with Trammel rules, but if the code base from those eras has been preserved then I think it would be much easier to separate UO:R into different shards than it would be to put the Trammel rule set into the T2A code. (Sure, Trammel exists on today's production shards, but there might be as many players interested in pre-AOS Trammel as pre-Trammel UO.)

I suppose at this time I should mention what I would really do if I was in charge of the game. As much as it pains me to write this, if I did go through the trouble of developing a classic shard with basically a T2A rule set, or with the UO:R Fel rule set, then I'd kill off Fel on the rest of the servers IF the classic shard attracted enough players to warrant opening up more than one shard with such a rule set. That to me would be strictly business, because I think that Fel would become very empty rather quickly if a classic shard proved successful. The server resources and developer resources would be better utilized for what's attracting the players.
 
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Llamfia

Guest
All I have to say about the potential subscriber base of a classic shard UO is to look at the FFA PVP mmo's that are out currently. I'll use Darkfall and Mortal Online as my examples. Both have an estimated 10k subscribers currently. Looking at their boards and talking to people in game you hear a lot of "It's fun, but it's not UO"

So I'll say there is a bleedover of subscriptions between DF and MO and say that there is at least 15k subscribers there that would jump to a classic shard UO in a heartbeat. Not to mention the subscribers on f2p shards.
exactly, people say there will be less than 10k are out of there minds and delusional.
 
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Lanth

Guest
To Longest Journey: I agree with you 95% on everythign u stated on your post except, murder counts and statloss.

The way id like to see it is the way it was great.
1-2-3-4 counts you are still blue your 5th murder you go red. Short term and long term murders. I believe they were what about 12 hours short term and 40 hours long term? Long term kicked in when you go red which you either have to macro off the hours or chance going out red. dying while red you get a 10-20% statloss permanent but if you die and just macro off as a ghost is fine. Thats the way it was and no one could really macro off counts because we all played on dial up! lol good old times.
 
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eekamouse

Guest
All I have to say about the potential subscriber base of a classic shard UO is to look at the FFA PVP mmo's that are out currently. I'll use Darkfall and Mortal Online as my examples. Both have an estimated 10k subscribers currently. Looking at their boards and talking to people in game you hear a lot of "It's fun, but it's not UO"

So I'll say there is a bleedover of subscriptions between DF and MO and say that there is at least 15k subscribers there that would jump to a classic shard UO in a heartbeat. Not to mention the subscribers on f2p shards.
Plus both those game are HORRIBLE. Many have left them because of the quality. So... you can EASILY take that 15k and multiply it by 2 or 3 to include the people (like myself) who went there looking for UO2 and finding complete piles one would hesitate to call a finished product.

They're awful. Wow. I'm shuddering remembering my experiences... ... -_-
 
A

Aragon100

Guest
But what you really are saying is that YOU want a classic server with the specific era that YOU enjoyed the most, and not that "people" want that, although I pretty much agree with you that a majority of PvPers might favor mid-to-late T2A with insta-hit and pre-cast.
Good post.

I'm not that sure though that T2A is what most players want.

The poll that is stickied had no UO:R option and the most visited freeshards is the ones with UO:R settings.

I strongly prefer UO:R PvP before T2A, never liked those instahit hallies.=)

Plus both those game are HORRIBLE. Many have left them because of the quality. So... you can EASILY take that 15k and multiply it by 2 or 3 to include the people (like myself) who went there looking for UO2 and finding complete piles one would hesitate to call a finished product.

They're awful. Wow. I'm shuddering remembering my experiences... ... -_-
Only from my guild they would get +50 subscribers.
 

Archie

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Good post.

I'm not that sure though that T2A is what most players want.

The poll that is stickied had no UO:R option and the most visited freeshards is the ones with UO:R settings.

I strongly prefer UO:R PvP before T2A, never liked those instahit hallies.=)



Only from my guild they would get +50 subscribers.
Precast, insta-hit and insta-swing were fun for dueling. In the field, hally mages weren't really overpowered because they didn't have their special dueling rules to protect them, lol.
 
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Renyard Foxenwyle

Guest
Plus both those game are HORRIBLE. Many have left them because of the quality. So... you can EASILY take that 15k and multiply it by 2 or 3 to include the people (like myself) who went there looking for UO2 and finding complete piles one would hesitate to call a finished product.

They're awful. Wow. I'm shuddering remembering my experiences... ... -_-
Darkfall isn't that bad. My only problem with it is the huge grind (even after the changes of two months ago) and the fact that there is no skill cap. I tested MO for a bit during the open beta but my connection here in iraq was so bad that I kept getting desynched with the server so I could never really test it much, but when I was home on leave I could see that it had potential. Hopefully SV will see it through, though I still hang my hopes for a true sandbox ffa pvp experience on a classic UO shard.
 

Llewen

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Supporter
Plus both those game are HORRIBLE. Many have left them because of the quality. So... you can EASILY take that 15k and multiply it by 2 or 3 to include the people (like myself) who went there looking for UO2 and finding complete piles one would hesitate to call a finished product.

They're awful. Wow. I'm shuddering remembering my experiences... ... -_-
Darkfall isn't that bad. My only problem with it is the huge grind (even after the changes of two months ago) and the fact that there is no skill cap.
Darkfall is actually pretty good, and it is getting better all the time, and I didn't have a problem with "the grind". The game breaker for me was the lack of a skill cap.
 
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Beleg Megil

Guest
I know I have said it before, but since the noisey minority have an agreement between them to bump this thread every time it drops off page 1 (really, guys, if you must, just type "Shameless Bump" instead of rambling about crap), I am going to restate my opinions on a classic shard somewhere on each page of this thread from now on. You know, just in case people only read the last page.

A.) The "poll" sticky in UHALL is pretty much worthless. About 50% of the participants are puppet accounts created while the 2 month poll was open. Anyone can check that statement.

B.) Even if you wrongfully accept that the poll is even remotely legit, there is hardly an overwhelming majority on what the voters want. You all can't decide what a classic shard is. Just read back in this thread.

C.) Anyone that says there are other sources for the "vast outcry" of people who want a classic shard besides Stratics are *technically* correct. There are other polls on other forums and such. But its the same people.

D.) Making a "Classic Shard" is not as simple as loading an old UO disc into a server and just exempting it from patching. If it was, I would say fine, let the nostalgia gang and the people who couldn't evolve with the game have their shard. A "Classic Shard" will cost time, money, resources and people to develop. That's time, money, resources, and people would be taken away from making new content, maintaining the current shards, and bug fixing what we already have.


E.) There is no guarantee that taking a 12 year leap backwards will bring in more income in the form of new or renewed subscriptions. Its counterintuitive. There could be a brief nostalgia bump, but that's about all EA/Mythic could count on. I think they are smart enough to know that.

F.) Any new shard will further divide the player base.


As always, if a DEVELOPER or PRODUCER... not a deluded player who THINKS or CLAIMS to know how things are...but and actual DEVELOPER or PRODUCER can honestly tell me that making a classic shard will not take any resources away from the current shards, then that's all I need to hear and I'll shut up about it. Until that happens, I have to assume that making a classic shard will take time and money, and when it concerns the longevity of UO, that time and money is better spent elsewhere.

Anyway, now that that's covered, I'll see ya next page, if the crazed zealots keep bumping it along. :)
 
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Evlar

Guest
I know I have said it before, but since the noisey minority have an agreement between them to bump this thread every time it drops off page 1 (really, guys, if you must, just type "Shameless Bump" instead of rambling about crap), I am going to restate my opinions on a classic shard somewhere on each page of this thread from now on. You know, just in case people only read the last page.
So any discussion of something that is of interest to certain people, but not to yourself, is a "shameless bump"? Mmmkay...

A.) The "poll" sticky in UHALL is pretty much worthless. About 50% of the participants are puppet accounts created while the 2 month poll was open. Anyone can check that statement.
So do you have actual proof of that statement then? Please share your findings if so. Such statements are worthless without concrete proof, just as those who claim hundreds of thousands will return to UO for "classic" are worthless. You're no better in that respect than those you're arguing against or trying to put down. rolleyes:

B.) Even if you wrongfully accept that the poll is even remotely legit, there is hardly an overwhelming majority on what the voters want. You all can't decide what a classic shard is. Just read back in this thread.
Such is the whole point of discussions. Show me any thread on Stratics, for even current game content, where everyone posting agrees. I don't think you'll find a single one, so why should this thread be any different?

C.) Anyone that says there are other sources for the "vast outcry" of people who want a classic shard besides Stratics are *technically* correct. There are other polls on other forums and such. But its the same people.
Yes, I've read many threads on MMO sites, general forums and even forums of other games. Some indeed may be the same users as have voiced opinions on Stratics, but to say "its <all> the same people" period, without any proof, is pure speculation.

D.) Making a "Classic Shard" is not as simple as loading an old UO disc into a server and just exempting it from patching. If it was, I would say fine, let the nostalgia gang and the people who couldn't evolve with the game have their shard. A "Classic Shard" will cost time, money, resources and people to develop. That's time, money, resources, and people would be taken away from making new content, maintaining the current shards, and bug fixing what we already have.
I don't think that the majority of sensible people think it will be easy at all. Clearly it will cost time and money, hence why would Cal have mentioned in response to a post in another thread, that they have presented business plans to EA for it? Nobody knows what the content of those business plans involved, so how can anyone say for sure it would take away resources from the current game? Nobody can confirm either way if it will or won't. If EA and the developers won't release subscription figures or player numbers, they're hardly likely to divulge any detailed information about in-house business decisions, or operations, are they?

As for those who didn't "evolve" with the game, or simply didn't want to, then I would suggest thinking about the following perspective - the number of former players of UO, far exceeds the number of current players. Why is that? There's many reasons of course, including other games choices, but if you gauge just one aspect that former players didn't like, AoS was probably the biggest. AoS made changes to the game that other games already had in place, but were doing better. Instead of concentrating on what made UO unique, they implemented something that made it more akin to other games, just not as well implemented. That was the slippery slope that UO subscription numbers have never recovered from.


E.) There is no guarantee that taking a 12 year leap backwards will bring in more income in the form of new or renewed subscriptions. Its counterintuitive. There could be a brief nostalgia bump, but that's about all EA/Mythic could count on. I think they are smart enough to know that.
There's no guarantees of anything. There have been many games that have had great expectations, only to fail spectacularly. There's been games that people have expected little of, that didn't look fancy, but have attracted huge amounts of players and popularity. Nobody knows for sure, until a game is launched, as to how well it will be received. All anyone can do, is try to make educated guesses.

Why would re-creating a game that a lot of people played and enjoyed, for its own merits of the time-scale we're talking about, be a step backwards? It's not just former or current players who say pre-AoS was one of the best eras of Ultima Online, but gaming critics, developers and others in the industry.

Given the developers have the "classic" concept under consideration and have presented business plans, I would suggest they are more inclined to know the facts of the matter. It's another option for them to consider. Nothing wrong with that. I would be more pleased they're considering different options and outlooks to keep the game alive, rather than blinker themselves along a single train of thought, as many of the current players are doing.

Granted, there's more ways to keep the game alive than just the "classic" option. But wouldn't you prefer they try to look at every angle, rather than the game just trundle along to it's inevitable demise?

F.) Any new shard will further divide the player base.
That's actually a potential problem. I don't think that Siege will survive any arrival of classic shards. That has more to do with the fact it contains AoS content, than anything else. Siege is an alternative, but insofar as game content is concerned, apart from the "open" single ruleset, it offers little else as a game-play alternative.

As for the production shards, on the whole, it might actually be beneficial to the game as a whole to divide the player base. It is for the most part, already divided, certainly when it comes to the Tram vs. Fel debate. You can already see the outcry that was caused by a quest which featured an element of Fel activity. The Tram based players were outraged and there's accusations that the developers are deliberately trying to force people into PvP activity.

Frankly speaking, the game in its current format is a mess of disjointed content and unsatisfied or disagreeing players. So, why not tidy things up and give the main sections of the player base what they crave?

· Trammel rule set orientated, totally "safe", item-centric production shards.
· Felucca rule set orientated, item-centric "Siege" type shard.
· Felucca rule set "classic" orientated, pre-AoS type shards.

There will be more of the "production" shards than the "Felucca" orientated shards, always. Unless that is, the latter actually proved to be more popular than the Trammel based shards, in which case, any "cuts" or "mergers", would be entirely an economic decision.


As always, if a DEVELOPER or PRODUCER... not a deluded player who THINKS or CLAIMS to know how things are...but and actual DEVELOPER or PRODUCER can honestly tell me that making a classic shard will not take any resources away from the current shards, then that's all I need to hear and I'll shut up about it. Until that happens, I have to assume that making a classic shard will take time and money, and when it concerns the longevity of UO, that time and money is better spent elsewhere.
That's the prized answer, that I think everyone, of whatever opinion, wants to hear.

You and others believe any resources would be better spent on what you prefer. Some "classic" supporters think the opposite. Some hope that "classic" would have as little resource impact on "production" as possible. All opinions, when all's said and done.

Anyway, now that that's covered, I'll see ya next page, if the crazed zealots keep bumping it along. :)
Those after a classic option, are no more "crazed zealots" than those against the idea. Think about it...

Zealotry: While most of translations render this Greek word as an adjective "zealous", the word is a noun meaning 'adherent, loyalist, enthusiast; patriot, zealot'

...so I guess we're all "crazed zealots" when we're discussing the different preferences we have! :lol:

There are more sensible people here, trying to think from all angles. You've touched on some, we've touched on others.

Suffice it to say that on other aspects, we'll agree to disagree on certain areas.

The main thing we all want to hear though, is feedback from the developers, to put this entire debate to rest, one way, or the other. Quite frankly, the longer this particular debate is left open, the more risk it has of doing harm to the game as a whole. A little closure one way or the other, would be nice. The developer who stands up and makes the definitive statement, is always going to take flack from one camp or the other. Best simply to get it out of the way, then move on in the chosen direction.
 

Archie

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Evlar, I agreed with you right up to the last paragraph. (And thanks for the constructive, civil response.)

But my question is: How does the debate remaining open risk harming the game as a whole?
 
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Beleg Megil

Guest
So any discussion of something that is of interest to certain people, but not to yourself, is a "shameless bump"? Mmmkay...
No. I'd say "reading comprehension" but you've consistantly demonstrated a certain level of...shall we say density?...when it come to opinions contrary to yours. Whether this is intentional or not is up for debate, I suppose.



So do you have actual proof of that statement then? Please share your findings if so.
Yes. And anyone can find it themselves without me feeding it to them. Just go to the Members List, sort it by join dates betweem March 7th and May 7th of this year. Cross reference those 500+ new accounts with the names that participated in the poll. Names like (and I am paraphrasing) I:heart:UOin98 and such...names with 0 posts who were only active the day they were created and participated in the poll. Names with 1 or 2 posts in "classic shard" threads consisiting of cut and paste "party talking points" or how they "used to play all the time, quit after AOS, would absolutely return for a classic shard!"...that B.S. Then, they were no longer active after the poll closed.

Those are puppet accounts. Even an idiot can tell that. I'd rather show people how to figure it out for themselves than spoonfeed them.



Such is the whole point of discussions. Show me any thread on Stratics, for even current game content, where everyone posting agrees. I don't think you'll find a single one, so why should this thread be any different?
Not the point and I think you realize that, but you want to cloudy things up.



Yes, I've read many threads on MMO sites, general forums and even forums of other games. Some indeed may be the same users as have voiced opinions on Stratics, but to say "its <all> the same people" period, without any proof, is pure speculation.
I said "its the same people". You added "all". I'll clarify for you and the people you are trying to mislead by saying it is MOSTLY the same people. You can tell because they identify themselves....You know...with names...



all the other beside the point rambling crap.
Look, its simple:

Cal says that developing a classic shard won't interfere with the current shards = me shutting up.

You are not Cal.

You have no facts.

Your opinion does not matter to me.

A wall of mildly clever misdirection won't change that.
 

Coldren

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Few points:

Those are puppet accounts. Even an idiot can tell that.
You do know that the voting threads and classic discussion threads were advertised on other MMO boards, right? A lot of people signed on and created accounts just to vote on this topic/participate in those discussions. I know I saw a few threads on the issue on MMORPG.com.


Look, its simple:

Cal says that developing a classic shard won't interfere with the current shards = me shutting up.

You are not Cal.

You have no facts.

Your opinion does not matter to me.

A wall of mildly clever misdirection won't change that.
While true, you must stop and think about this from a business perspective.

It seems certain from a common sense perspective that if the managers/owners/executives thought for one second that a classic shard would in any way reduce their profit, they would prohibit it. To them, it's all cost/benefit analysis.

You can be certain that if it doesn't go through, it's because someone didn't think it'd be worth the money and resources.

If it DOES go through,you can be certain someone thought it was.

Time will tell.
 
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Evlar

Guest
Evlar, I agreed with you right up to the last paragraph. (And thanks for the constructive, civil response.)

But my question is: How does the debate remaining open risk harming the game as a whole?
The risk, is that you currently have a very fractured player base. Tram players versus Fel players, players who prefer "current" versus players who prefer "classic". So on and so forth. Continued dissatisfaction.

You're never going to have entirely happy forums, especially here, being Stratics is now the "unofficial/official" site for anything UO related, not least developer feedback.

I often wonder though, given the immense amount of general animosity amongst players, even for simple differences of opinion, what anyone "new" to UO and Stratics must think. It certainly wouldn't encourage me to play, unless I was a particularly anti-social gamer, who couldn't care less about others anyway. These forums are in some respect, right or wrong, a window onto the game itself.

If there's such a fractured community, to me, it would make sense to have another option (classic) in tandem with what's currently offered. Both preferences are served and both should be more or less happy with what they have.

Lack of any visible activity or response from "those in power", almost gives the impression that there's a lack of care on their part. That may be entirely wide of the mark, but it is the impression it gives.

As the "debate" rumbles on and opinions go back and forth, the very best thing I think the developers could do, is at least answer some of the questions that are being raised here, from both sides.

"Classic" supporters are mostly agreed on the "core" of what such an option should offer. That is, pre-AoS game play, within a single rule set landscape. The rest, is pretty much on the fringes of the discussion.

Those against the "classic" option tend to be so, because they are more concerned that it will suck development resources from the rest of the game, which they have a preference for.

The best thing the developers could do, is engage more fully with both sides. If indeed a "classic" option is more than just talk, which mention that business plans have been submitted, suggests it is... then they should try to allay the fears of those who have concerns about it taking development resources away from the "main" game.

At the same time, they would also be confirming that a "classic" option is indeed, "work in progress", even if no exact time-scale is given. Suffice it to say, if there is "work in progress", then let's at least have a separate Stratics forum, where discussion can continue.

Likewise, if it's definitely not going to happen, then at the very least, it would provide closure. "Classic" supporters can move on to other things and those who were against it, would at least be able to rest easier.

Continued refusal to respond more clearly in some form, only serves to damage both the reputation of the game and the developers. People don't like being left to dangle, without knowing what's going on. That's the biggest risk to the game. That applies to this debate, or any other aspect of the game.
 
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Evlar

Guest
"all the other beside the point rambling crap."

Look, its simple:

Cal says that developing a classic shard won't interfere with the current shards = me shutting up.

You are not Cal.

You have no facts.

Your opinion does not matter to me.

A wall of mildly clever misdirection won't change that.
Well, suffice it to say that you're steadfastly against the "classic" idea, so long as it doesn't interfere with what you prefer. Fine, understood.

You've clearly no interest in reasoned debate on the subject. The "Your opinion does not matter to me" and "all the other beside the point rambling crap" comments, show that clearly. Even when in many parts of the "rambling crap", I was indeed understanding of some of your concerns, in actual agreement and willing to discuss them.

Perhaps you simply don't like it when someone cares to make constructive criticism of your standpoint, or engage in further discussion?

Suffice it to say then, that insofar as closure is concerned, we are both after the same thing in a couple of respects. Either the "classic" option is not going to happen, or if it is, that it will have little to no development impact on the rest of the game, which you prefer.

That good enough for you?

Other than that, we can agree to disagree on other points and leave it at that. Trolling one another is neither worth the time or the effort. I'm sure you're mature enough to appreciate that?

Let's pass the real questions we both have, over to the devs, in the vain hope that we'll actually get some definitive answers.
 
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Beleg Megil

Guest
Evlar,

I think a classic shard would be silly. I was there for "classic". I know I would not like it and I prefer what we have now. More options, more thought required, better balanced, more customization and personalization. I think a lot of people that claim they would like it would abandon it within a month.

Most of that is opinion, tastes, guesses, etc.

And if it were guaranteed that having a classic shard wouldn't hinder development of current shards, I'd vote yes in every poll that asked if there should be one. I'd not play it, but I'd think you should have it.

If they said "Sure, no problem, we could have it up by the end of the week!" I would make a Beleg Megil, stand him on the roof of WBB and apologize for an hour straight, every day, for two weeks, for arguing against a classic shard. (Actually it may just be a Beleg, Sunsword made it so that nobody can make a "Beleg Megil" character, and I don't think the block has been removed)

I am not "against a classic shard". I'm against diverting resources to it and away from current product. If it does not hinder development of current shards, I say go for it. Yes, it really is all about resourcing to me. Time, money, people, etc. I'd be against anything that diversted resources from the current shards.

Hell, I don't like when Cal takes too long of a coffee break!

And while I'll never agree that we are after the same thing in ANY way, shape, or form, I will agree I am not interested in debating this subject with anyone except EA/Mythic folks. its pointless arguing otherwise.

What sets me off is when the classic sharders try to pass it off as FACT that a classic shard equals big bucks and tons of returning/new players. There is no way to prove that. Its assumption at best. And the info those statements are based on is...word of mouth? Postings on forums? "I know 50 people that would sign up tomorrow if there was a classic shard"? Statements like that. Forum polls and internet hearsay are not business models.

Now...while my position is ALSO an assumption... that developing a classic shard will take time, money, people...It seems to be more of a reasonable assumption than "build it and they will come, I promise".

If you can accept that a classic shard WILL take time, money, people, etc....what seems more logical to you?

A.) EA/Mythic will be allocated extra people and money and computers by the all benevolent mothership to develop a classic shard, so that the current production shards will still get new content, development and bug fixes at the same rate they have been.

B.) "We can handle both, with the same number of people and the same amount of funding, no sweat! You'll see no difference in quality!"

I know what seems more logical considering the climate and as evidenced by history. Granted, its still an assumption that only someone like Cal can speak to, but its based on sounder logic than the classic-shard-as-a-business-model arguments that **** me off.

So yeah. Going back and forth is stupid at this point. As long as nobody is trying to pass off "classic shard=good for UO's future" as FACT? I'll stay out of it.
 
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Evlar

Guest
If you can accept that a classic shard WILL take time, money, people, etc....what seems more logical to you?

A.) EA/Mythic will be allocated extra people and money and computers by the all benevolent mothership to develop a classic shard, so that the current production shards will still get new content, development and bug fixes at the same rate they have been.

B.) "We can handle both, with the same number of people and the same amount of funding, no sweat! You'll see no difference in quality!"

I know what seems more logical considering the climate and as evidenced by both history and the present. Granted, its still an assumption that only someone like Cal can speak to, but its based on sounder logic than the classic-shard-as-a-business-model arguments that **** me off.
Well, I would hope option A) but I know option B) would be the more likely. It's the usual response by many corporate entities sadly.

I'm also fairly realistic when considering the fact that some of the Mythic guys are also engaged on working with the BioWare guys on aspects of the new "flagship" Star Wars game, now they're all affectively under the same banner.

So essentially, the realist in me tends to believe that any "classic" option is less likely as time passes. Especially with things as they are.

I do believe though, that there are likely to be some "interesting times" ahead for UO, along with many changes. Although it would be nice to hear about some of those things in the pipeline in more detail, we're usually the last to know, or decisions are made, without much time for a consensus of opinion to form, until after the fact.

I would hope though, that there is a place for the alternative option I favour, within the changes that are pretty much inevitable in this stage of UO's lifespan. So long as both sets of "supporters" are kept happy and new or returning players can be encouraged to play.

The speculation that a discussion like this encourages, is just that. Speculation. I don't know what facts, figures or projections the team were or are working from to make business plan proposals. We're likely never to be party to that information either.

As for the game itself and preferences, with a sandbox game that has so many possible ways to play, people are always going to have preferences. It's not for me to say your preferences are wrong, nor you mine. That's always been the strongest aspect of UO, is that players can do many different things.

Likewise, our game play preferences may differ, based upon activities we liked, along with our experiences.

To give you a feeling of my own reasons.

Personally, my feeling for UO is that especially prior to AoS, the game appeared more balanced in all areas and was more "complete". Clearly there was always room for improvement, but within the merits of the game itself, rather than trying to hang on the coat-tails of other games. Speculation, I know, but I do think there would be more people playing UO today, if back then, more account had been taken of the preferences of different groups. For example, had Siege not been "upgraded" to AoS content, we might not even been having this conversation now.

Although I'm in agreement with you, that there is much more scope within the game today, with more personalisation and customisation. Insofar as game play is concerned, it's probably house customisation that kept me playing as long as I have.

I don't mind reasoned evolution, but I also dislike the unreasonable extinction of aspects of game play and character abilities. I also tend to prefer the simplicity of playing the game itself, rather than what seems to drive most players now, which is the "grind" for items. Simply put, the game has become increasingly more item-centric since AoS and for me, it detracts from many other elements of game play and the strengths of UO.

For example, although PvP only accounted for a small proportion of my play, (along with adventuring, crafting, resource gathering, dungeon crawling, hunting, role-playing and interaction with the community), it had the feeling that it was more balanced, more "pick up and play" and more down to the skills of the players, rather than what they were kitted out with in particular.

I used to participate more in role-playing prior to AoS. Again, the game seemed more about the characters and their abilities, than any particular "special" items. A role-playing group on a dungeon crawl, or facing a high-end creature, stood just as much chance of victory as the non-role-players. It brought a tinge of sadness to me recently, when I saw an RP group doing just that in Ice. I spoke to their "leader" out of character later on and they admitted that they would love to do the same thing, in simple GM crafted outfits in the newer dungeons, but any chance of "victory", was impossible unless suited up properly, as per the requirements of the "modern game.

So, a few snippets of my feelings.
 
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Aragon100

Guest
I know I have said it before, but since the noisey minority have an agreement between them to bump this thread every time it drops off page 1 (really, guys, if you must, just type "Shameless Bump" instead of rambling about crap), I am going to restate my opinions on a classic shard somewhere on each page of this thread from now on. You know, just in case people only read the last page.

A.) The "poll" sticky in UHALL is pretty much worthless. About 50% of the participants are puppet accounts created while the 2 month poll was open. Anyone can check that statement.

B.) Even if you wrongfully accept that the poll is even remotely legit, there is hardly an overwhelming majority on what the voters want. You all can't decide what a classic shard is. Just read back in this thread.

C.) Anyone that says there are other sources for the "vast outcry" of people who want a classic shard besides Stratics are *technically* correct. There are other polls on other forums and such. But its the same people.

D.) Making a "Classic Shard" is not as simple as loading an old UO disc into a server and just exempting it from patching. If it was, I would say fine, let the nostalgia gang and the people who couldn't evolve with the game have their shard. A "Classic Shard" will cost time, money, resources and people to develop. That's time, money, resources, and people would be taken away from making new content, maintaining the current shards, and bug fixing what we already have.


E.) There is no guarantee that taking a 12 year leap backwards will bring in more income in the form of new or renewed subscriptions. Its counterintuitive. There could be a brief nostalgia bump, but that's about all EA/Mythic could count on. I think they are smart enough to know that.

F.) Any new shard will further divide the player base.


As always, if a DEVELOPER or PRODUCER... not a deluded player who THINKS or CLAIMS to know how things are...but and actual DEVELOPER or PRODUCER can honestly tell me that making a classic shard will not take any resources away from the current shards, then that's all I need to hear and I'll shut up about it. Until that happens, I have to assume that making a classic shard will take time and money, and when it concerns the longevity of UO, that time and money is better spent elsewhere.

Anyway, now that that's covered, I'll see ya next page, if the crazed zealots keep bumping it along. :)
First of all i dont see all the players that have been longing for a classic shard as the noisy minority. It is a valid request and it would bring fresh new money for developers to use. Besides i doubt were the minority, there is more of us out there then you can imagine. And since we have been waiting for many, many years for this old shard to spring to life then i can accurately state that we that await such a shard isnt just nostalgic and were definetly not here for the shortrun. Such a shard will stay up forever.

Then you say it will divide the playerbase?

In what way will it devide the playerbase when most that will play on a classic shard alredy ended their UO accounts? It will instead bring back many subscribers that left UO many years ago back into the game.

This new fresh money will provide more developers to work on this "new" classic shard.

There is loads of players that is looking forward to a classic shard. The poll is far from accurate as you say cause there is so many more that is interested in a classic shard. They didnt vote cause they werent aware of it. 5 out of the potentially +50 from my guild that might join in on a classic shard havent voted in any of these polls. So the numbers of potentially interested players is very high as i see it. And havent you wondered why the threads about a classic shard is the ones that bring the most attention on this forum? Reason for this is a ongoing never ending interest in this classic UO shard.

Last again, a classic shard will bring alot of subscription income and those players will fund their own shard.

Yes. And anyone can find it themselves without me feeding it to them. Just go to the Members List, sort it by join dates betweem March 7th and May 7th of this year. Cross reference those 500+ new accounts with the names that participated in the poll. Names like (and I am paraphrasing) I:heart:UOin98 and such...names with 0 posts who were only active the day they were created and participated in the poll. Names with 1 or 2 posts in "classic shard" threads consisiting of cut and paste "party talking points" or how they "used to play all the time, quit after AOS, would absolutely return for a classic shard!"...that B.S. Then, they were no longer active after the poll closed.

Those are puppet accounts. Even an idiot can tell that. I'd rather show people how to figure it out for themselves than spoonfeed them.
I think you're very wrong claiming it is puppet accounts. Some might be of course but i will fill you in why i think it is a very legit poll and the numbers would have been many, many times higher if these "oldtimers" that is looking for a classic EA shard were aware of it's existence.

In my guild, most werent aware of this poll. So i made a thread on our forums and asked the ones that were interested to vote. These guys didnt have a UO stratic account so of course there will be many new ones when oldtimers that never visit the forums returns here to vote. They had to make a account and it will be a new one.

This procedure is of course very common in other guilds that is interested cause there might be just a few of the old players that still read these forums.

Edit: I made a new account so i could vote and take part in this discussion. I played UO from beta to AoS and then joined freeshards. My friend still plays my old UO account and he says he never met anyone with such a old account.
 
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Sergul'zan_SP

Guest
They should post a poll in game that only allows a single vote per account. This way everybody knows and has an opportunity to answer. No accounts younger than six months should be able to vote.

This way if you're silly and create accounts to vote, then you contributed six months worth of subscription fees to development efforts.
 
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evadepvp

Guest
Two questions based on the sticky (http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=190295)

1) What exactly is wrong with bods and runics, if you can just make vanq/invul + gm moddifier weapons/armor? Take out the ability to reset BODs (to prevent scripters), and you have a nice system... imo.
I totally agree, bods should be put in, adds more variety to the game. Just make it so factions can only bless up to gold or bronze runic? That way there isn't gimps running around with insane weapons that they can not lose. It would mean using a agapite+ runic would have the old Risk Vs Reward.

2) What about Champ Spawns that don't drop PS's? Is that what the "Ilshenar potential" is about? Why not just have Ilshenar (with Fel ruleset) in from the get go? It would be a nice end game to shoot for, paragons and all. Fighting a Para Balron with 700 skill cap (while watching your back for raiders) would be a great experience, imo.
I disagree in putting in Ish, as more landmass just separates players. I say leave the champs in t2a but with no powerscrolls as the reward, instead have rare deco items:

The deco items could consist of 1 yard of a rare hued cloth, rare hued sandals, new hair dye, house deco items etc.

Each champ could have a whole bunch of items that are unique to each, and say there is a 50% chance something will drop randomly in 1 persons pack. Then for the harrower make it have extremely cool items - such as new ethy mounts, with a 100% chance that 1 item will drop.

This way it adds variety to the game, promotes pvp and pvm, and will also give a flourishing market to trade/buy/sell these items. And by not putting in items that give advantages to pvp, no damage is done to unbalance anything.
 
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Aragon100

Guest
They should post a poll in game that only allows a single vote per account. This way everybody knows and has an opportunity to answer. No accounts younger than six months should be able to vote.

This way if you're silly and create accounts to vote, then you contributed six months worth of subscription fees to development efforts.
And how is a vote on today shards gonna reach the ones interested in a classic shard? And in what way is that a accurate poll?

Most of us interested in a classic shard ended our UO when trammel and AoS arrived.

A poll ingame is not reaching most of the ones that is interested.
 
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Lanth

Guest
Looks like everyone has given up on a great dream. I havnt seen any new post or heard any new rumors about a classic shard in a long time :(. I for one will probaly be waiting till im old and gray, along with a few of my rl friends. To bad the best gaming days of my life all came from UO, and now we are stuck with games such as Aion and WoW.
 
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Babble

Guest
UO comes in all favors though, Trammel, Fel, PVP, Family friendly
Just not all from EA
:p

btw. I read some players resurrected Earth & Beyond too
:)
 
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Aragon100

Guest
Looks like everyone has given up on a great dream. I havnt seen any new post or heard any new rumors about a classic shard in a long time :(. I for one will probaly be waiting till im old and gray, along with a few of my rl friends. To bad the best gaming days of my life all came from UO, and now we are stuck with games such as Aion and WoW.
Not given up, just awaiting the reply we should get before the end of the year.
 

Tanivar

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Not given up, just awaiting the reply we should get before the end of the year.
Less than 4 months to go.

I suspect EA is aware many didn't like the AoS changes and might come through with something.

Heck, in a simple tryout offering, they could take the AoS item numbers out of the combat formulas and off the item info displays, lock it to the Fel ruleset, remove a few skill choices, and toss it up on a test center to see how many players go to it and stick around for 6 months. If enough do to show real promise for a full pre-Ren shard, they might decide to invest in making a more fully Classic Shard.

If too many stick to their guns on it having to be exactly their way or they won't play it, there wouldn't be enough players showing they would play such a shard and it wouldn't be made. Hopefully enough would be willing to play something close, if not exactly, their ideal classic shard.

Give me something pre-AoS where I'm not looking at a black & white death screen more than 5% of my playtime, and I'd play the shard.
 

Dorset

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Well what a great thread so far.. what a cracking read.

I too like a lot of old vet would love to have a crack at playing UO in its glory days. I havent played UO for a while now but would be back in a click if i could play a classic shard. I know a lot of peeps disagree but for me the T2A era, think its around 98/99 was pure class.
I use to love the way you had to work together as even a 7xgm was easily taken out buy a mob or 2/3 half chars. Guilds were such a big part of the game, and to have your own guild GM Smith was something special. Thats the thing i supose i mostly miss, is the way you all had to trade and work together.
I Use to play on europa and can still remember just trying to make it to the moongates without getting chased, or being at glow graveyard bashing some zombies and then a gate would open and through comes a red and his cast deamon.
I know a lot of peeps dont like the idea of being pk'd but that was such a fun part of the game. I cant really remember being ganked back then like i have been in factions, and to be in order/chaos was really something special. Lol just the shields use to do it for me.
Like a lot of older players i have tried various other online games, but nothing comes even close to what fun it use to be.

Anyways thats my input to this thread, and fingers crossed something will come from all this talk from the devs.
 
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WhityJinn

Guest
I signed the Petition for the Classic Shard, and if the DEVS create one, I will certainly play there.
 
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spade gt

Guest
Looks like everyone has given up on a great dream.
Incorrect, sir! People are just waiting for the next step from the devs. Many have been posting and posting about this topic (or reading and reading other's posts about it) for months now. We're all a bunch of runners, lined up on the starting line, waiting for the devs to fire the starting gun. But there are only so many ways you can post, "I'm still hoping they make a classic server!"

With that being said...I'm still hoping they make a classic server :)
 
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Evlar

Guest
Looks like everyone has given up on a great dream.
Incorrect, sir! People are just waiting for the next step from the devs. Many have been posting and posting about this topic (or reading and reading other's posts about it) for months now. We're all a bunch of runners, lined up on the starting line, waiting for the devs to fire the starting gun. But there are only so many ways you can post, "I'm still hoping they make a classic server!"

With that being said...I'm still hoping they make a classic server :)
Although I really would like to see a classic option provided, I'm afraid I'm more pessimistic.

I think that having now gone down the route of the "booster" packs, which will either be a great success*, or another nail in the coffin**, I doubt that EA will provide the additional resources needed to provide what we would like.

The only other alternative is funding coming out of the existing budget. Existing players have made it clear enough what they think, were that to happen.

-----

* If enough of the existing subscribers buy the boosters, then this approach will be a revenue success for UO, if nothing else.

** If people don't like the content on offer in a booster, they won't buy it, if it makes little difference to their overall gameplay and don't feel obliged to do so.

If enough people don't buy into the boosters, then the overall revenue stream for them won't be worth their development. UO is then back to square one - continued decline in player numbers.

I still maintain that for the biggest return on investment (players and revenue), the two best options are either a true 3D client, or a classic option. Looking after the needs of existing players is fine and should always be a priority, but it also seems like the game is never going to grow again. There's no real incentive to encourage either modern "new" gamers, or returning "old" players.

-----

I think it's fair to say though, that I'm sure we will know one way or the other "by the end of this year". Frankly speaking though, I think the eventual answer will be negative.

Personally, I've now moved on. I'm exploring other games. If... and it's a very big "if", the answer is positive, then of course I'll be there quick as a shot. :)
 
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WhityJinn

Guest
Aw, Ahu, it`s so sweet you posted a picture of butterflies on my birthday.

A stealther`s gotta do what a stealther`s gotta do, so I`m bumping this thread.
 
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Babble

Guest
There are some decent classic shards out there already. Just a pity that they cannot properly advertise it.

So no real reason for EA to make one.

Actually I wonder if developement on UO would be quicker with ea shards or without. Though for graphical stull I guess EA is quicker and more professional than with coding.
 
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WhityJinn

Guest
There are some decent classic shards out there already. Just a pity that they cannot properly advertise it.
If EA was interested they could recruit some of these people for the OSI Classic Server.They did a great job establishing free pre-AOS shards, so I guess they would be very valuable for EA...considering that current UO developers don`t know much about the game, and know absolutely nothing about how it was before AoS.
 
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Babble

Guest
One of the developers offered it to EA, though I doubt they accepted it.
 
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WhityJinn

Guest
Thoughts..

Classic shard will get a few thousand new resubscribers

When there is no new content people leave

I just had to quote this BS.


So, tell me, why people don`t leave free old-style servers, although there is no new content?

Most of the people who come to a OSI Classic Shard will be well aware of what a Classic Shard is.They won`t be coming to the shard to farm rainbow-colored swords or ride neon cu-sidhes with a new colour released every month.

So, basically, if we get a Classic shard, we won`t have the type of players who don`t belong there.

p.s.

and I`ve seen even carebears adapt and start liking classic free shards.
 
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Babble

Guest
No idea I never followed up on it, but must have been one of the 2 bigger classic shards.
 
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copycon

Guest
So, basically, if we get a Classic shard, we won`t have the type of players who don`t belong there.
Oh yes you will. :)

New players will come because it is "new" to them. Other shards will become less populated because of the players leaving to try out the new "toy", and some of those players may even log on more frequently than today because of the "new" experience. Maybe this is the real reason why some people are so heavily against "consuming development time"?

Some former players will resubscribe because it is "old" to them, and that is really all there is to it.

Win/Win IMO.
 
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WhityJinn

Guest
Well, copycon, but only those players who truly understand the concept of sandbox game and who are willing to use their imagination, will stay on the Classic Shard.

And the PvPers, who care only about oldschool pvp.
But I`m ok with that.

It`s better to have l337 pwn3rz who run around killing everything that moves, than having tons of static boring players who go farm swoop, the go farm swoop some more, and then banksit in Luna sitting on the back of their neon cusidhe.

Because in my opinion those l337 d00ds who played only for the PvP back then in the pre-aos era - they were True.They added great challenge to the game.That`s what a real murderer is like - ruthless and quick.

I don`t want to see some Hawk the Murderer who asks me politely "Um, sire, if ye don`t mind I shall now attack and slay thee".

Srsly, there is some free custom roleplay shard out there, and it`s stated in the rules that if you want to kill someone there, you must first let them know that you are gonna attack.

Needless to say it`s complete BS.


__
Here`s something for the occasional new players who might read this thread:

See, I don't think there's a lot of players on these forums, who understand the sandbox concept.

Perhaps what they don't understand about a sandbox, is it revolves around the imagination of the player, allowing them the freedom to do what they want to do, whenever they want to do it, however and wherever they want to do it.

Every time the current player base complains that an aspect of the game isn't fair - ergo - they can't win or obtain something with consumate ease, then are placated, the game moves yet further from the sandbox.

I would go so far as to say, that UO is not a sandbox any more, it's an illusion of a sandbox. If the current player base "majority" is ok with that, then fine. If their imagination is limited in lack of understanding that to some, UO is more than just items, pretty looking houses, but wider depth and freedom of interaction between players for gameplay, then that's just a shame.

To me, a true sandbox environment is perpetual and endless in possibilities. There is no end game, only events during a continuing adventure.

For those who fail to understand a true sandbox game, I would refer them to the great David Braben games, Elite, Elite Frontier, Elite Frontier: First Encounters.

They were games without end. There was no ultimate victory, though there was genuine progression and acheivement. You could reach "Elite" status and still have only explored less than one percent of what was out there to explore.

If you put David Braben and Richard Garriott in the same room to bounce sandbox ideas of each other, the mind would truly boggle at the possibilities they could create.
 
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Babble

Guest
Not necessarily from a roleplay standpoint.

That is the nice thing about UO that you can take things of it and it still works.

I can tell a story with hardly any pvp
I can make a full fledged PvP shard
I can make a sims 3 housing crafting, petbreeding game

People have adapted UO to d&d and lotr with levels/races and all
 
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WhityJinn

Guest
Umm..don`t you guys...want to send an email to Cal or something?

Ask him about his opinion on a classic shard option, give him a link to this thread.

Why don`t someone do it?
 
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Babble

Guest
i think they know and official statement is that the answer will come before this year is over.
 
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