Banned and house deleted

[Dor of Sonoma]

Discussion Thread
Response (EA Rep Otlan)
08/06/2008 05:31 AM
Greetings,

Thank you for contacting Ultima Online Support.

I am very sorry to hear of your account being terminated. However, you were found to be in possession of a multitude of highly illegal items in Ultima Online. Due to the severe nature of this ToS violation, your account was terminated. Sufficient evidence was verified to justify this termination.

Please be advised, we cannot give specific detailed information as to what items were in possession but be assured that we have fully investigated each case separately and found your account to be in violation.

The action taken against your account was just and will stand. If you would like to see any changes made to our Rules and Policies, please feel free to submit feedback via the UO Herald by visiting
http://uoherald.com/feedback/index.php

Any further replies regarding this subject will not be acknowledged.

Thank you and take care.

EARep Otlan
Player Relations
Electronic Arts

Reading this, I have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach.

It is (almost word for word) the same email that I recieved years ago, on the occasion of my erroneous perma-ban. The issue for me at that time was that there were no options, no recourse, and not even the vaguest ban review process in place. Put simply, it was thus: you're scum, you're permanently banned from our game, you are not ever to address us (or anyone else) in any manner, go away forever.

However! The sole, positive result of my experience (at that time), was that due to my public tribulations and my ensuing efforts, a ban review process was FINALLY initiated...so that no player would ever have to hear this again:

"Any further replies regarding this subject will not be acknowledged."

I am fairly depressed by this apparently deliberate regression in customer service. It makes it seem as if my entire nightmare was for naught - and bad history is repeating itself unnecessarily.

*sighs*

I don't know what to say. I must admit to sad shock.

 

[RoycroftLS]

Alright, one more response...

However, coming into possession (either through purchase or gifting) of an item or items that were created in an illegal manner (duping/changing the original coding), without having personal knowledge that item was a dupe *in no way* violates the TOS.

I don't dispute that, although I did misspeak earlier when I said that possession itself was enough. The rules of conduct page makes that distinction:

19. You will not exploit any bug in the Ultima Online product or the Ultima Online service. You will not intentionally use or share any bug found within Ultima Online, real or fictitious, regardless of whether or not it grants an unfair advantage....

20. You will not intentionally accept an item that has been “bugged” or otherwise manipulated outside of the designed game mechanics from anyone inside or outside the game world. The Ultima Online team has the right to confiscate any such illegal items, without reparation, even if a player had no prior knowledge of the item’s origin.

If people were banned for unintentionally violating item 20, then yes I could see there being a problem. However, every banned person who I have seen publicly dispute their case has been found guilty of violating item 19. There are no excuses to be made for that.

However, even in that instance, the burden of proof is on the policing body to prove the possessor of the counterfeit in question *knew* it was counterfeit and was attempting to *knowingly* pass/fence/profit from the item(s).

In the legal world? Yes. But these are EA's servers, and even if they did ban people just for possession, that is in their power to do so.

Laws are made to protect ALL parties, with special emphasis on Burden of Proof, with the accused being innocent until proven guilty... at least here in the United States.

Again, this is EA's world, and their rules. Yes, to appease and attract customers they should present a fair and just system. I feel that they are doing the best they can to do so, and I currently don't have a problem with the way they punish people.

You can't follow rules if you don't know what constitutes breaking those rules. To be in possession of something that you got honestly and innocently is not breaking *any* rules!

Yes, unknowingly possessing duped items is alone not enough to get you banned. But even if you believe that anyone can get banned just for possessing a very large number of duped high-end items, there are steps you can take to protect yourself. Don't buy high-level items from people you don't know. Take a few minutes to ask around to see if a vendor is reputable. Don't purchase gold from untrusted sources.

Are such steps unnecessary to be absolutely certain of one's own innocence? That's for each person to decide for themselves. We can ask the devs to change things, but chances are if they haven't found a more intuitive anti-duping solution after 11 years, then one isn't available for this game.

Perhaps it was a bit gruff of me to suggest that if you don't like things and don't feel your voice is being heard, then leave. However, you can sugarcoat it and present as nicely as you want, but that's still at the essence of the current situation.

 

[gjohnson5]

Nobody in this thread states that it is impossible to get 180 milion in a few months. .

Assuming you believe everything you read....

 

[gjohnson5]

Reading this, I have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach.

It is (almost word for word) the same email that I recieved years ago, on the occasion of my erroneous perma-ban. The issue for me at that time was that there were no options, no recourse, and not even the vaguest ban review process in place. Put simply, it was thus: you're scum, you're permanently banned from our game, you are not ever to address us (or anyone else) in any manner, go away forever.

However! The sole, positive result of my experience (at that time), was that due to my public tribulations and my ensuing efforts, a ban review process was FINALLY initiated...so that no player would ever have to hear this again:

"Any further replies regarding this subject will not be acknowledged."

I am fairly depressed by this apparently deliberate regression in customer service. It makes it seem as if my entire nightmare was for naught - and bad history is repeating itself unnecessarily.

*sighs*

I don't know what to say. I must admit to sad shock.

I'm just curious to know if they have another pre-canned response to these bannings. This is the same one I keep reading over and over

 

[Amber Moon]

If people were banned for unintentionally violating item 20, then yes I could see there being a problem. However, every banned person who I have seen publicly dispute their case has been found guilty of violating item 19. There are no excuses to be made for that.

See this gets closer to the heart of the issue for many of us. The ban letters and Jeremy's comments seem to indicate its a 'multitude of..' items. Violating items under rule 20. At the same time, the actions taken against the account seem to be rule 19.

So which is it? Items under rule 20 or actions taken by the account under rule 19 since possession alone hardly infers the action.

Yes and of coarse they can do whatever the $%# they want. It is their company and their business. It just doesn't seem like very smart business to be inconsistent with your own published rules.

 

[Xrenos]

nevermind

 

[Tina Small]

Let me start off my comments here by saying that I'm in the process of shutting down my unbanned accounts because I'm leaving UO for good. I've been tempted to just cancel them outright, but I want to give my guildmates a chance to let me know if they want anything and to get their stuff out of the houses we've been sharing on some shards.

Let me also say that I freely acknowledge that buying items and gold from brokers was a stupid and greedy thing to do.

I will also say that I never participated in using exploits of any sort to dupe items. I can understand if you don't want to believe me on that one and whether you do or don't, that's up to you to decide and I won't waste anyone's time trying to convince you of something you don't want to believe.

However, here is what I do know now and perhaps worthy of your consideration if you have decided to continue paying EA to play UO:

• The letter I received telling me my account was banned quoted rule 19 of the TOS, very clearly implying that I had exploited game properties and/or shared bugs with others.
• When I asked for an explanation for why I was banned, the response I received via the Account Administration site said that my account was terminated because I was found to be in possession of a multitude of highly illegal items and because of the severe nature of this ToS violation, my account was terminated. The response also said they could not give specific detailed information as to which items I possessed, but that they had fully investigated each case and found that my account was in violation and that their action against my account was just and will stand.
• When I look at my account on the Account Management site, it says it was suspended for "Suspected Misconduct - Exploitation."

From where I sit, it appears to me that EA decided to ban one of my accounts because I possessed too much of an item or items that they found to be illegal. I know not what the item or items were or when I possessed them and it appears that EA possibly no longer possesses that information either in sufficient detail to review the situation with me.

I still have access to other UO accounts. Why? Beats me. They all use the same credit card information and they all use the same e-mail address. I am completely mystified why they didn't touch the other accounts.

I am also completely mystified as to why the initial notification of the account banning quoted rule 19 of the ToS but the clarification doesn't mention it but rather mentions a ToS violation that appears to fall under rule 20. I won't even begin to speculate about why they used the word "suspected" in the suspension reason field on the account management site. Your guess on that is as good as mine.

I'm not here to justify anything I did. I'm not even particularly upset this happened, because I've been telling myself for a long time now that I spend too much time and money on UO and that I should stop playing. This is the lightning bolt that will hopefully make it happen for me.

However, I suspect that EA is doing a lot of things with UO in a sloppy, half-assed fashion and I doubt I will ever consider purchasing one of their games in the future and will not recommend them to friends and family either. I also suspect that they may have some problems with their account administration staff or someone else who has access to the information used in their automated customer support web site. When I asked for clarification of the ban letter, I had to provide an e-mail address. I happened to use the same e-mail address that I use on each of my accounts and that I've never used for any other purpose than for receiving communications from UO. Well, guess what? Now all of a sudden, I'm getting bogus e-mail messages sent to that account purportedly from Paypal with links in them to use to update my Paypal account details. Nice going, EA. Nice going indeed.

 

[Pax]

Alright, one more response...

However, coming into possession (either through purchase or gifting) of an item or items that were created in an illegal manner (duping/changing the original coding), without having personal knowledge that item was a dupe *in no way* violates the TOS.

I don't dispute that, although I did misspeak earlier when I said that possession itself was enough. The rules of conduct page makes that distinction:

19. You will not exploit any bug in the Ultima Online product or the Ultima Online service. You will not intentionally use or share any bug found within Ultima Online, real or fictitious, regardless of whether or not it grants an unfair advantage....

20. You will not intentionally accept an item that has been “bugged” or otherwise manipulated outside of the designed game mechanics from anyone inside or outside the game world. The Ultima Online team has the right to confiscate any such illegal items, without reparation, even if a player had no prior knowledge of the item’s origin.

If people were banned for unintentionally violating item 20, then yes I could see there being a problem. However, every banned person who I have seen publicly dispute their case has been found guilty of violating item 19. There are no excuses to be made for that.

Stating it was a violation of Rule 19 and *showing proof* it was a violation of Rule 19 are not the same thing. Heck, they haven't even shown it was a violation of Rule 20, which states: "You will not intentionally accept an item that has been “bugged” or otherwise manipulated outside of the designed game mechanics from anyone inside or outside the game world." Innocently buying items that turn out to be dupes is *not* "intentionally" accepting, as the rule states, since the use of the word "intentionally" in the rule assumes *knowledge* before the fact that the item was duped but accepting it anyway.

It's easy to SAY anything you'd like, and companies are no less likely to say what they please to justify themselves than any of us "mere mortals", that's why *proof* is necessary. EA is providing its customers with a service in return for our money, because of that they are bound by certain rules too, especially the rules they themselves have instituted.

From what I've been reading in many of the protest posts, the only rule that the "offenders" could've violated was Rule 20, which carries with it the action to "confiscate any such illegal items, without reparation," and that is the action that should've been taken. Any more severe punishment is not warranted or threatened under the TOS as it currently stands. What that means it that none of us agreed to what is now happening. None of us agreed to being sumarily punished to the ultimate length of severity regardless of our infraction. The punishment should fit the crime *and* fall within the guidelines of the TOS.

Considering it logically, the loss of many very expensive items is a severe punishment in itself.

However, even in that instance, the burden of proof is on the policing body to prove the possessor of the counterfeit in question *knew* it was counterfeit and was attempting to *knowingly* pass/fence/profit from the item(s).

In the legal world? Yes. But these are EA's servers, and even if they did ban people just for possession, that is in their power to do so.

Is it? Since when? Seems that would fall under "Failure to Provide Contracted Services." See: [FONT=Arial,Bold][FONT=Arial,Bold]CUOMO SUES DELL FOR FALSE ADVERTISING, FAILURE TO PROVIDE SERVICES, AND DECEPTIVE BUSINESS PRACTICES[/FONT][/FONT]

Laws are made to protect ALL parties, with special emphasis on Burden of Proof, with the accused being innocent until proven guilty... at least here in the United States.

Again, this is EA's world, and their rules. Yes, to appease and attract customers they should present a fair and just system. I feel that they are doing the best they can to do so, and I currently don't have a problem with the way they punish people.

Because it hasn't hit YOU yet. Something tells me that should it, you would be just as loud in protesting your innocence as you are now in asserting everyone's guilt.

You can't follow rules if you don't know what constitutes breaking those rules. To be in possession of something that you got honestly and innocently is not breaking *any* rules!

Yes, unknowingly possessing duped items is alone not enough to get you banned.

Wrong, at least according to that letter.

But even if you believe that anyone can get banned just for possessing a very large number of duped high-end items, there are steps you can take to protect yourself. Don't buy high-level items from people you don't know. Take a few minutes to ask around to see if a vendor is reputable. Don't purchase gold from untrusted sources.

Are such steps unnecessary to be absolutely certain of one's own innocence? That's for each person to decide for themselves. We can ask the devs to change things, but chances are if they haven't found a more intuitive anti-duping solution after 11 years, then one isn't available for this game.

Perhaps it was a bit gruff of me to suggest that if you don't like things and don't feel your voice is being heard, then leave. However, you can sugarcoat it and present as nicely as you want, but that's still at the essence of the current situation.

Look, I don't want to have to worry about taking a misstep everytime I logon to play my favorite game, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. I don't want to be hemmed in by fear of what I can only guess might wind up getting me in trouble to the point I'm prevented from doing *the perfectly legal activities* I have legally contracted to have the right to do.

The letter to those players who have been banned states clearly they were found to be in possession of duped/illegal items. In order for EA to say that, they must have some way of *seeing* which items are dupes. Agreed? The fact is that IF The Powers That Be are capable of seeing every item in the game and determining if it's real or a dupe, then those same powers can delete every dupe without bothering their customers any further.

The loss of the duped items would be punishment enough. Furthermore, if the deletion of all those items came *after* an announcement from EA/Mythic that such a thing was going to be done, then it would be very unlikely any player would be able to protest much... well, at least not effectively.
.

 

[Beldon]

It's easy to SAY anything you'd like, and companies are no less likely to say what they please to justify themselves then any of us "mere mortals", that's why *proof* is necessary. EA is providing its customers with a service in return for our money, because of that they are bound by certain rules too, especially the rules they themselves have instituted.

It is EA/Mythic's game. They are Judge, Jury, and Executioner. All the accounts in game are really theirs. You pay them a monthly fee to manage it for them. Their ROC and TOS are to protect their property. As long as you pay to play their game you have accepted all of this whether you believe it or not.

 

[Amber Moon]

However, I suspect that EA is doing a lot of things with UO in a sloppy, half-assed fashion and I doubt I will ever consider purchasing one of their games in the future and will not recommend them to friends and family either. I also suspect that they may have some problems with their account administration staff or someone else who has access to the information used in their automated customer support web site. When I asked for clarification of the ban letter, I had to provide an e-mail address. I happened to use the same e-mail address that I use on each of my accounts and that I've never used for any other purpose than for receiving communications from UO. Well, guess what? Now all of a sudden, I'm getting bogus e-mail messages sent to that account purportedly from Paypal with links in them to use to update my Paypal account details. Nice going, EA. Nice going indeed.

Maybe those support folks overseas aren't so slow after all. One wonders what a nice validated US email address is worth. An extra coke at break time perhaps?

Safe Travels Tina, wherever you should land.

 

[Kaleb]

I hope they all stay banned and the rest of their accounts get hit also. you would have had to been seriously stupid to realize that a 12-15m val hammer and how fast they were showin up on shards were not dupes IMHO. All these cry me a river posts are gettin stupid. You were banned for the simple fact that EA saw reason enough to ban ya. Get the F---- over it.

 

[Pax]

It's easy to SAY anything you'd like, and companies are no less likely to say what they please to justify themselves than any of us "mere mortals", that's why *proof* is necessary. EA is providing its customers with a service in return for our money, because of that they are bound by certain rules too, especially the rules they themselves have instituted.

It is EA/Mythic's game. They are Judge, Jury, and Executioner. All the accounts in game are really theirs. You pay them a monthly fee to manage it for them. Their ROC and TOS are to protect their property. As long as you pay to play their game you have accepted all of this whether you believe it or not.

We *did* accept everything we *contracted* to be bound under... and that contract bound in BOTH directions. That you are so willing to give up your rights is sad, but I won't allow those such as you to deprive me of mine simply because you hold yours in such low regard.
.

 

[Beldon]

You really don't have any rights. The proof is the so called unjustified banning. Your only weapon is they want your money, and they want to keep getting it. If you think you are dirrectly or indirrectly wronged you can still keep on giving them your money if you want to. It is your money after all.

 

[Edgar]

your right! dont know you dont care. But as I said, that amount of money dosent come from honest play. Allowing others to pad your pockets with duped, exploited, scripted and other wise non-honest monies Puts (all who fit this catagory) right at the top of the list of people ****ting all over this game.... this is a generalization not a direct finger pointing.:loser: Sooner they are gone the better. Imo

Just because you cant make that kind of money does not mean those who can are cheating. When I was out of work for 3 months I made well over 100 mil, and this was in 2002. I have never cheated, scripted, duped, or bent the rules of the game. I did in by buying and selling houses, which was good at the time. So unless you know for sure someone is cheating there is no need to think they are.

BTW I'm happy as hell that people are getting banned for cheating, hope EA keeps doing it. Make be all the speed hackers and scripters will go next.

Edgar

 

[the 4th man]

1st off the economy has been riddled to hell, okay? Buying gold from scripters, farmers, and whatnot.

2nd, making the game about buying and trading, materialism.....pathetic, very,very pathetic.

Last, but not least, oh mr original poster.....don't call customer service. Why in the name of God would you do that?? Because it's toll free??

IF( the middle word in life) you are innocent, spend some coin, call corporate in VA......or, sue them.....

Honestly, why do you guys think griping here is the answer??

Do something adult and logical.

 

[Budweiser]

Hello Nathan how is Napa these days... guesse no ones running nakid bar brawls more ???

Nope... I miss those days. Best times I had. I didn't know anyone at those events but I loved to go.

 

[dum3886]

Nobody in this thread states that it is impossible to get 180 milion in a few months. The point is, that the regular game mechanics don't allow it. You can participate in the trading game and pretty quickly add the milions. But by killing miasma's and dragons it will take you more than a few months, even if you were to play 17 hrs a day. I will grant one of the previous authors in this thread that you can make more if you get some arties from doom, but ask yourself this: the 6 hours you put in to get that artie (give or take) does that equate 100K or 5 milion gp? in other words, the economy (which is broken) dictates a rediculous price based on availability and demand, but also based on how many gold pieces are available. I think 15 milion is a reasonable amount to have if you have played a lot overa 5 year period, not 180 in 3 months. You can not claim that you have done this through the game, you must have been trading. And yes, you will get burned that way...

But again, i was not posting to gripe about traders. I think I rather have a game with a somewhat broken economy than no game at all. Ban the dupers, don't ban the traders. Fix the duping loopholes and continue building on this amazing game.

Trading IS part of game mechanics. How is it not, is it an exploit to trade with people?
I can make 100 mill prolly within 2 months of restarting my account (if i did.. lol asif i would now the game is getting worse by the day). ANd yes by legit methods. I have ways of getting very high powered weapons w/o much of a hastle all i need is a all 70s suit (lrc is nice but not required)

I think some people here just dunno the game well enough to realise money can be made very easily and all legit. At worst u can say its dirty money (gold farmed) but then EA might as well ban everyone because everyone has "dirty" gold. Wats the difference between duped rares and unlegit gold?

 

[dum3886]

1st off the economy has been riddled to hell, okay? Buying gold from scripters, farmers, and whatnot.

2nd, making the game about buying and trading, materialism.....pathetic, very,very pathetic.

Last, but not least, oh mr original poster.....don't call customer service. Why in the name of God would you do that?? Because it's toll free??

IF( the middle word in life) you are innocent, spend some coin, call corporate in VA......or, sue them.....

Honestly, why do you guys think griping here is the answer??

Do something adult and logical.

Ohh lol that last sentence made me laugh "do something ADULT and logical. Also the "sue them" made me laugh too. Man what are you 12? Suing someone takes up a LOT of resources(your time, lawyer fees, court fees, possibility of a counter sue [wasting their resources])... and i mean a LOT, no one who is "adult" and logical will sue EA bcz their account got banned.

FYI its called MATURE not adult lol. Also its called money not "coin".

 

[monnie101]

Trading IS part of game mechanics. How is it not, is it an exploit to trade with people?
I can make 100 mill prolly within 2 months of restarting my account (if i did.. lol asif i would now the game is getting worse by the day). ANd yes by legit methods. I have ways of getting very high powered weapons w/o much of a hastle all i need is a all 70s suit (lrc is nice but not required)

I think some people here just dunno the game well enough to realise money can be made very easily and all legit. At worst u can say its dirty money (gold farmed) but then EA might as well ban everyone because everyone has "dirty" gold. Wats the difference between duped rares and unlegit gold?

Well then why dont you help people? Share the love man. Help out some newbies. So many of them keep getting ripped off by these sociopaths in UO who find it funny to make little girls cry.

As for the thread and some of you guilty guys, sometimes when you buy from the back of that guy's trunk, you get caught buying stolen goods.

 

[Fizzleton]

The letter to those players who have been banned states clearly they were found to be in possession of duped/illegal items. In order for EA to say that, they must have some way of *seeing* which items are dupes. Agreed? The fact is that IF The Powers That Be are capable of seeing every item in the game and determining if it's real or a dupe, then those same powers can delete every dupe without bothering their customers any further.

The loss of the duped items would be punishment enough. Furthermore, if the deletion of all those items came *after* an announcement from EA/Mythic that such a thing was going to be done, then it would be very unlikely any player would be able to protest much... well, at least not effectively.
.

thx pax for this communication. I could not copy all good passages, but you made a lot of nice points.

We have here on the board a habit of some peeps who simply state "if EA did what they did, they had reason to do it", and say "shut up!" to those who were hit by the bannings. If you go on like this, you could easily state that China is right in banning Amnesty International web sites, cause they had reason to do it. This is, well, bs. If something is done like banning accounts, and if it hits accounts that were played over almost a decade, loaded therefore with chars and things that have great personal value to their possessors - you should have damned good reason for it. I personally doubt that they indeed have. They are acting on a Kafka-like version of "We found you beeing guilty, but we don't give any proof". This is not acceptable.

There are those who are true "wannabees" in this game, and who suffer personally by the efforts and success of others. These happen now to show up and do rude comments on the losses of life time efforts like those of eg Tina Small. I do not know her. I was not owning a castle or keep, had two small accounts I played with very limited ressources. I had nice chars and good equip, that was enough to me. And I never, ever, questioned the efforts and the success of people that played this game more intensively than I did. If somebody like Tina liked to play 21 accounts and pile up rares and high end items, it did not touch my way of playing the game. I can only suggest to those who seem to like the bannings simply because it hit "wealthy uo-peeps" to get away from this rather low style judgement. I do like the idea that true dupers are eliminated from this game; but considering the last bannings, I severely doubt that EA really hit the right nails

 

[jack flash]

Any further replies regarding this subject will not be acknowledged.

Thank you and take care.

EARep Otlan
Player Relations
Electronic Arts



if i was banned i would want to speak to this ******* on the phone, if i was a 9 year vet, who had apparently "wasted" all that money, this is the least i expect

"Any further replies regarding this subject will not be acknowledged."

what an absolute disgrace

the fact that they wont even tell you what "highly illegal" items you had in your now deleted house strikes to me that they REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

if you get carted off to the old bill shop for stealing etc you have the evidence in front of you, EA rep moron, you need to let players know what they are "supposed" to have in their possesion

 

[Tabbitha]

Although I no longer play UO I have been reading all the current threads on this banning topic and a thought came to me ,especially with regard to those who are GM's of guilds etc.

Have any of your members left UO and given all 'their stuff/buildings' to the guild ie the GM?

I know this happens because as GM of a guild, I have received such items ,as do many other GM's on Europa.

How do you know you have never had /received/been handed duped items?

I know for a fact I never checked out any of those items that were passed to me, simply because not being a duper, it would never of occurred to me when my account was active,that I may have recieved anything illegal from other players.

I remember receiving lots of hammers/runic kits from one player,but just gave them to a friend of mine on mass,as they were of no use to any of my characters.

Maybe food for thought.

Maybe check any items you are 'given free of charge'.

I know if my account was still active,Id be scrutinising every single thing I have.!!

 

[Revenant2]

I hope they all stay banned and the rest of their accounts get hit also. you would have had to been seriously stupid to realize that a 12-15m val hammer and how fast they were showin up on shards were not dupes IMHO. All these cry me a river posts are gettin stupid. You were banned for the simple fact that EA saw reason enough to ban ya. Get the F---- over it.

It wasn't responsible or fair for the dupes to be left out there on the market for as long as they were. This built up a contextual expectation within the playerbase that it's okay to buy them. People who have accumulated cash (either buying it or through trading in-game) had plenty of gold to be able to get themselves a nice little pile of the things, it's not like someone had to be an exceptional freak to have 5-10 of the things.

There's no validity to the "you should have known" argument when the items were allowed to be for sale in bulk for so long. As players bought more and more, and more players began buying, it created the impression that what's on the market is fair game.

Poisoned dog treats lying in the Luna streets....

And it's counterproductive that EA won't tell people which items were bad. An answer like "You offered your whole rares collection to a duper knowing what he was going to do", or "Your whole collection was just dupes and we think you knew it and didn't care", or "you had 150 of the damn hammers in a chest in your house, wtf?" is meaningful. Offering a silent "F off" in so many words in a pre-written email is, however, pathetic.

Jeremy said that one of the people who came crying on the forum had like 150 or so hammers! That didn't violate any privacy policy IMO and it was helpful to hear. I'm inclined to believe her account in whatever case that references.

But the more powerful and effective thing would be to reply to each person who has made a query about their own account and list the real reasons for the ban. The better way to accomplish this would be for good notes to have been taken when the bad items were live on the production shard, but even if they didn't do that, they would have to be keeping generational type backups of the server data somewhere. It should be doable even after the fact.

 

[Revenant2]

Any further replies regarding this subject will not be acknowledged.

Thank you and take care.

EARep Otlan
Player Relations
Electronic Arts



if i was banned i would want to speak to this ******* on the phone, if i was a 9 year vet, who had apparently "wasted" all that money, this is the least i expect

"Any further replies regarding this subject will not be acknowledged."

what an absolute disgrace

Agreed.....

 

[Vallend]

Lets all face it they went after the buyer of dupes and not the real problem. The people who sell and/or produce the duped items. You can log into your home shard right now and go to Luna and still see the same vendors selling duped items. All they did was hurt the true player community by going after the buyers. Most of the dupers are not so stupid as to produce and keep duped items on their main accounts. They use dummy accounts that can be thrown away with little lose to them.
EA/Mythic should of deleted those dupes under a certain number, from accounts found with them and gave a stern warning to the owners of those accounts. Now those found with more then that number I have no problem with them removing those accounts from the game.
Its just like fighting drugs as I have stated before. If you are the cops you do not go after the users, but try and stop the dealers and if you can shutdown the system of how they are produced. Thats the only way to get drugs off the streets, and the only way to stop the dupes in game. If you are caught producing your credit cards should be blocked along with the IP you use so no more accounts can be used to ruin the game we all love so much.

 

[uofreakazoid]

Come on everyone, let's help this guy!!!!

The next person may be you!

I'm going to cancel one of my accts today because of this.

Let's hurt them where they will feel it!

-uofreak

 

[nushpapa]

Well then why dont you help people? Share the love man. Help out some newbies. So many of them keep getting ripped off by these sociopaths in UO who find it funny to make little girls cry.

As for the thread and some of you guilty guys, sometimes when you buy from the back of that guy's trunk, you get caught buying stolen goods.

One i quit 6 months ago... praying this game improves so i can reactivate... but seems like its getting worse.
And two, why the hell should i help newbies? i play to pvp... not to role play or any of those other tram crap.


Why don;t you say... stop trading gold?... a lot of it is dirty too. You say trading dirty items makes someone guilty. Then so are you... your trading with dirty gold. Yes they are dirty because so much of it is out there and has traded from "gold farmers" ---> "gold buyers" ---> the rest of the uo community.

Uo has been damaged beyond repair... well for trammies. I couldn't care less if all the rares were duped doesn't effect how i play lol. I was actually happy dupes occured... because i was able to buy barbed kits for 2.5 mill (at the time i quit) used to be like 5-6 mill a kit.

I've already made my voice heard. I quit UO and it seems like forever. Thats the only way to voice your disagreement of current management.

In the last 6 months i've heard more and more problems. Dupes, SCrewing up poison... ia ctually forgot what they did but i remember if i was still playing i would be hell pissed. oo it was the arch cure or sumthing? my god the devs obviously don't consider pvpers. Then Greater Dragons the new monster that has no benefits... only causes more imbalance among pvpers. (for those who say tamers are too weak in pvp... go train up two bakes, and make a paladin hybrid with taming now thats probably more important then any other template 1 vs 1)

 

[Otis Firefly]

i dunno if they changed the way there doing things now, but a friend of mine got a msg when logging in stating they found a duped item within his belongings...the item was deleted...he had 5 days to respond with an answer to where he got it or he would face being banned...anyone else receive that kind of msg before they got banned?

 

[Zofinur]

he had 5 days to respond with an answer to where he got it or he would face being banned...anyone else receive that kind of msg before they got banned?

Not me.
Just got the "go away and dont bother to talk to us"-email.

 

[Experimental]

i dunno if they changed the way there doing things now, but a friend of mine got a msg when logging in stating they found a duped item within his belongings...the item was deleted...he had 5 days to respond with an answer to where he got it or he would face being banned...anyone else receive that kind of msg before they got banned?

When did your friend get this message??
Before or after the mass banning?

 

[^Wolfie^]

i dunno if they changed the way there doing things now, but a friend of mine got a msg when logging in stating they found a duped item within his belongings...the item was deleted...he had 5 days to respond with an answer to where he got it or he would face being banned...anyone else receive that kind of msg before they got banned?

I call BS on this.

 

[bokke]

I hope they all stay banned and the rest of their accounts get hit also. you would have had to been seriously stupid to realize that a 12-15m val hammer and how fast they were showin up on shards were not dupes IMHO. All these cry me a river posts are gettin stupid. You were banned for the simple fact that EA saw reason enough to ban ya. Get the F---- over it.

Sheesh do you ever have anything nice to say to anyone? Did you seriously get no love as a child from your mother?

 

[Otis Firefly]

I call BS on this.

lol call it what you want, what you think really means nothing to me lmao..im stating what ive been told and thought i would pass that info along here, i personally dont care if anyone did get that msg or not before getting banned...
and to answer the other question, he got that msg tuesday morning from what ive been told.

 

[monnie101]

EA has ZERO obligation to tell anyone why they were banned. You gave up the right to know when you agreed to their terms of service.

In fact, telling anyone what they were banned for would make it more difficult for them to catch cheaters in the future. "oh, I got banned for 30 duped items this time, let's try 25 next time and see if I get away with it"

If you feel that the terms of service are unfair, you are welcome to terminate your contract with EA by cancelling your account. A fair bit of warning though, every other game out there has the same basic terms of service and is just as unwilling to discuss specific reasons for banning people.

Not really dude. UO is the only game that I have played that leaves a player sometimes without even telling them the reasons they got banned. Then when they finally do get that email it is vague as to why. Then if they ever are proven innocent it's too late because they already deleted most everything.

Also, while you are right that every MMOG has a mile long agreement you sign that seemingly says they can terminate your account for anything or do what ever they want, that is bull. Lawyers have looked over these agreements and not even everything in them is legal! They put it all in their hoping to cover their buts should something happen they hope it will deter people before getting to court.

 

[MYUO]

...
Its just like fighting drugs as I have stated before. If you are the cops you do not go after the users, but try and stop the dealers and if you can shutdown the system of how they are produced. Thats the only way to get drugs off the streets, and the only way to stop the dupes in game.

Your analogy is not very precise.
The ppl who got banned are not small time users, they are drug dealers or greedy users who tried to stock pile a ton of drug. The dupers are the ones who grow and make the drugs.

 

[Black Sun]

The only thing that im unsure is: i bought Destard home in trammel on Atlantic, this famous house at left of the entrance that been placed a couple years ago at launch of third dawn. You cant place that house if the plot is empty nowaday. Is that exploiting to buy that house ??? The home was "properly placed" as the pannel board was saying. i bought it off from his last owner. i bought it.

Is that could have banned me??? If so... WTH???? delete the house but dont ban me for god sake! this would be an honest mistake if it IS!!

That house is not the reason you were banned. I own the same location on Catskills, and my account is just fine. I think a lot of these bannings were because people had duped items in their possession. Regardless of if they were aware of it or not. For those who were banned who truly had no idea they were in possession of dupes, I feel sorry. For the people who had duped items and claim to be innocent, or are presenting their case like they had no idea they owned dupes, those to those people I say good riddance.

But I can tell your for certain, owning that house was not what got you banned.

 

[Tina Small]

i dunno if they changed the way there doing things now, but a friend of mine got a msg when logging in stating they found a duped item within his belongings...the item was deleted...he had 5 days to respond with an answer to where he got it or he would face being banned...anyone else receive that kind of msg before they got banned?

Otis, could you please ask your friend if EA also sent him an e-mail notification on this issue?

 

[R Traveler]

However, you were found to be in possession of a multitude of highly illegal items in Ultima Online.

What? Is it a bad joke? in possession ? Lets read rules...

Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of EA.com

How can we own anything there?

 

[Chronic Apathy]

However, you were found to be in possession of a multitude of highly illegal items in Ultima Online.

What? Is it a bad joke? in possession ? Lets read rules...

Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of EA.com

How can we own anything there?

Ya they own it and you held it.

 

[uofreakazoid]

How can we own anything there?

We own our time that it took to obtain these items.

If you want restitution, then hire a lawyer and sue for time lost.

-uofreak

 

[Pax]

thx pax for this communication. I could not copy all good passages, but you made a lot of nice points.

We have here on the board a habit of some peeps who simply state "if EA did what they did, they had reason to do it", and say "shut up!" to those who were hit by the bannings. If you go on like this, you could easily state that China is right in banning Amnesty International web sites, cause they had reason to do it. This is, well, bs. If something is done like banning accounts, and if it hits accounts that were played over almost a decade, loaded therefore with chars and things that have great personal value to their possessors - you should have damned good reason for it. I personally doubt that they indeed have. They are acting on a Kafka-like version of "We found you beeing guilty, but we don't give any proof". This is not acceptable.

I completely agree! The reason Customer Service and just plain customer consideration, appreciation and courtesy have become almost nonexistent these days is because of that "the company can do no wrong" attitude that has permeated every area of real life commerce today. The shabby treatment UO customers are getting from EA/Mythic is not novel (except in its blatantly undisguised contempt for us).

It's the result of the company feeling "entitled" to the money we give them to the point they feel no need to even give us the modicum of civil treatment and consideration people expect to see extended to a stray dog. What I can't understand is why paying customers put up with such treatment. Everyone seems to have become cowards along the line of, "Oh, don't complain, they might spit in your food!" Yes, with the courage to stand up for your rights comes the danger you might suffer as a result, but that's only because we have for too long allowed the high-handed, insulting treatment companies so readily dish out these days rather than voting with our wallets and no longer doing business with the offending companies.

I must admit I'm as guilty of that as anyone else. I've known from the first those who own UO didn't care about their customers, and I mean from way back when the Garriots owned the game. In other words, from the very first. What I wish is that there was some way for us, those who love UO, to buy the game and run it with the consideration for its customers it always should have had. UO's decline can be directly linked not to its archaic software but to its almost total lack of any real Customer Service and support. Classically we have had to bear not just gross noncommunication, but outright jeering insults when they finally decided to communicate... yet we continued to put up with it. There were certain critical points in the past where what seemed obvious contempt held by those who own UO for their paying customers reached such an unacceptible level that even those of us who really loved the game decided to quit because we could no longer tolerate it.

There are those who are true "wannabees" in this game, and who suffer personally by the efforts and success of others. These happen now to show up and do rude comments on the losses of life time efforts like those of eg Tina Small. I do not know her. I was not owning a castle or keep, had two small accounts I played with very limited ressources. I had nice chars and good equip, that was enough to me. And I never, ever, questioned the efforts and the success of people that played this game more intensively than I did. If somebody like Tina liked to play 21 accounts and pile up rares and high end items, it did not touch my way of playing the game. I can only suggest to those who seem to like the bannings simply because it hit "wealthy uo-peeps" to get away from this rather low style judgement. I do like the idea that true dupers are eliminated from this game; but considering the last bannings, I severely doubt that EA really hit the right nails

Again, I agree. I followed a rune placed at Luna bank a couple of days ago and found a vendor that had 8 Chargers on him selling for 6 mil each. Now, before the beginning of the week when I came here to Stratics and learned about all the duping going on... (something I wasn't aware of before then, no matter how loudly some ignorant loud-mouths on these boards insist we should ALL *always* have known)... I would've assumed the seller got those Chargers from IDoCs.

But now, the number of Chargers he had for sale combined with the price make me suspicious. I know UOGameCodes.com sells a token to get a Charger (or Shroud) for $19.95, because I bought one of the tokens from them. I also know that gold sells for between $1 and $2 a million, because I bought it in the past for $2 (when my son and his wife came back to the game and I wanted to help them get outfitted and deco their houses), and have since seen lots of adds for it as cheap as $1 a million. That means he was selling those Chargers for, at the most, $12 real money, $8 under what they officially sell for in real life.

Are they dupes? I don't know, there's no way to tell for sure... and that's the problem. We, the players, have no way to know which items are dupes and which aren't. That guy could be completely innocent and selling his hoard of genuine Chargers he's accumulated from doing lots of juicy IDoCs. EA/Mythic's stance of noncommunication is likely to finish off UO's depressingly depressed economy.

As to the bannings, Perhaps EA wants to shut UO down by causing its customer base to drop below some critical number, in order to fiscally justify the closing. Hitting the holders of multiple accounts would be a fast way to accomplish that... but that's just wild-haired speculation.
.

 

[Sweety]

Wow........
You should call them and start #$*)@ing them out like every chance you get. I would. lol

 

[Kat]

Discussion Thread
Response (EA Rep Otlan)
08/06/2008 05:31 AM
Greetings,

Thank you for contacting Ultima Online Support.

I am very sorry to hear of your account being terminated. However, you were found to be in possession of a multitude of highly illegal items in Ultima Online. Due to the severe nature of this ToS violation, your account was terminated. Sufficient evidence was verified to justify this termination.

Please be advised, we cannot give specific detailed information as to what items were in possession but be assured that we have fully investigated each case separately and found your account to be in violation.

The action taken against your account was just and will stand. If you would like to see any changes made to our Rules and Policies, please feel free to submit feedback via the UO Herald by visiting
http://uoherald.com/feedback/index.php

Any further replies regarding this subject will not be acknowledged.

Thank you and take care.

EARep Otlan
Player Relations
Electronic Arts

Reading this, I have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach.

It is (almost word for word) the same email that I recieved years ago, on the occasion of my erroneous perma-ban. The issue for me at that time was that there were no options, no recourse, and not even the vaguest ban review process in place. Put simply, it was thus: you're scum, you're permanently banned from our game, you are not ever to address us (or anyone else) in any manner, go away forever.

However! The sole, positive result of my experience (at that time), was that due to my public tribulations and my ensuing efforts, a ban review process was FINALLY initiated...so that no player would ever have to hear this again:

"Any further replies regarding this subject will not be acknowledged."

I am fairly depressed by this apparently deliberate regression in customer service. It makes it seem as if my entire nightmare was for naught - and bad history is repeating itself unnecessarily.

*sighs*

I don't know what to say. I must admit to sad shock.

Dor - If you don't mind my asking, what were the circumstances surrounding your ban? I ask because, at least in these cases of numerous duped items, it appears they were taking permanent action based upon posession of a LARGE number of [duped] items. Large enough that the account holder in question had to know they were duped, either because they duped the items personally or purchased them from a source who had tons of them, in which case, common sense should set off red flags like crazy and the person simply did not care. Doing such, sends a message not only to those who are duping, but also those who are knowingly supporting dupers or simply do not care where the items came from.

Having said all that, I do agree that in most other cases, there should be some process by which one can defend themselves. In these particular bannings, I believe no recourse was offered because they were attempting to send a loud, clear message. In most cases I believe there should be some way to defend yourself, but I have to admit, I can understand wanting to send a very strong message to cheaters.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Having said all that, I do agree that in most other cases, there should be some process by which one can defend themselves. In these particular bannings, I believe no recourse was offered because they were attempting to send a loud, clear message. In most cases I believe there should be some way to defend yourself, but I have to admit, I can understand wanting to send a very strong message to cheaters.

The problem is, they're still not telling what the items in question were. Not to us. Not even to the people who got banned. And -- if we're to believe them -- they don't even know (the guy with 100+ of the particular item probably does know, but the others at least profess their innocence).

But, part of this equation is knowledge on OUR end of things. And certainly, telling someone what they did wrong should not consist of "Trust us. You broke the rules. Goodbye."

 

[RaDian FlGith]

"Any further replies regarding this subject will not be acknowledged."

Yep. That's their answer for everything these days. When they're done talking to you, they're done.

It takes nothing short of a mircale to get it moving again.

 

[Xrenos]

Now I got a thread running on www.electronicarts.ru (ru = my home country heh) and response of local EA authorities that they will pass information about this crazy, unfair ban situations and absence of customer support to head office.
My next step will be hanging around EA_Mythic forums and authorities of Warhammer Online, the game which is going to be released this september my EA_Mythic. It has like 100k subscriptions now and I suppose that UO customer support problems of this company will drive some of these 100k customers off and make EA_Mythic pay some more attention to their staff.

there is nothing else I can do except to keep fighting.

 

[Amber Moon]

My next step will be hanging around EA_Mythic forums and authorities of Warhammer Online, the game which is going to be released this september my EA_Mythic. It has like 100k subscriptions now and I suppose that UO customer support problems of this company will drive some of these 100k customers off and make EA_Mythic pay some more attention to their staff.

I would strongly suggest that you do not do this. Perusing the correct official channels is fine. If that fails, well it was a business dealing for entertainment that went bad, and move on.

I suspect that any sympathy you had here and elsewhere will evaporate the minute you make a pest of yourself.

 

[FrejaSP]

I wish MyUO forum back, that would spare us for alot of "I'm so innocent" postes.

 

[Black Sun]

I wish MyUO forum back, that would spare us for alot of "I'm so innocent" postes.

You and me both.

I can't begin to tell you how sick I am of hearing everyone crying 'It wasn't me, I didn't do it.' If you were found in possession of stolen good IRL, even if you claimed to not know they were stolen, you'd still get in trouble. Why should the virtual world be any different from the real one?

 

[Flora Green]

You and me both.

I can't begin to tell you how sick I am of hearing everyone crying 'It wasn't me, I didn't do it.' If you were found in possession of stolen good IRL, even if you claimed to not know they were stolen, you'd still get in trouble. Why should the virtual world be any different from the real one?

IRL you know what you're accused of stealing or being in possession of. The evidence is also presented and you have a right to defend yourself. NONE of that is occurring with these bans. Guilty or innocent, EA is judge, jury and executioner and according to some of you it's okay.