An old text of Designer Dragons views on PvP

[Stigmatas]

So it's settled then. European's are all griefers.

LOL

Must be all the reefer.

Make sure u save me some, I want to come over and partake some year


REEFER MADNESS!


Anyone here from Amsterdam? Wanna give me room and board for a week?


Just sayin................

 

[Guest]

Raph is one of a very small select group of people whom I would give up a testicle to work with, I'd encourage anyone interested in the whole idea of virtual worlds and spaces to read his articles.

 

[Guest]

*hands stigmatas a tissue*...la

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

The busiest freeshard is a PvP shard however it is also Pre-AoS. It is hard to tell which is the bigger draw.

The bad news for your theory about shutting down freeshards is that there just aren't that many people on them. There are a lot of freeshards with very, very small populations. There are a few with small-medium populations. There is one (maybe two) with large populations.

If you took all the people on freeshards and put them on EA shards it would add no more than 10k subs.

That is why EA doesn't care. And of course, a lot of those people wouldn't play EA shards even if their own freeshard was closed. They would just play another game.

 

[Guest]

the thing you have to remember is this was written 8 years ago. Some things are slightly off base, but overall it's still very relative today, that's why I consider him to have been a great pioneer of this industry.

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

DD's post rings of truth. The Euro shards of WoW, may be more populated with pvp, but I will refuse to agree that overall, there are more players on pvp shards than pvm shards. Unless that you can prove that wrong. I can't prove or disprove it, as I've never played WoW. But I have a hunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed...Then...compare WoW PvP, to old UO PvP.

Not even close.

No dry looting.

No killing Guildies without a Duel Consent...

Etc Etc Etc.

PvP in WoW IS way more popular than UO PvP EVER was...and there are extremely good resons why, and lessons that UO could REALLY learn from, IMO.

PvP is Fun.

PKing is ONLY fun for the PK themselves, and an excessively small group of "Sheep" who like the thrill of getting attacked...actually...those select few are really generally just Wolves in Sheeps clothing.

All the REAL prey live on another shard/facet...

 

[Guest]

Great, great post - I hadn't seen that one before. Thanks for putting it up!

 

[Guest]

I really enjoy the consensual PvP in WoW...particularly battlegrounds. I try to avoid random, non-consensual world PvP in WoW just as much as I did in UO. I am fully aware of the irony too, since I have really only played on Siege, and only on a PvP realm in WoW. I guess I am a sheep who likes to pal around with wolves...I put up with the meanie wolves because my wolves are cute and cuddly.

-Skylark

 

[Guest]

Ignore the PvP comments...and get back to work on fixing the game for us thieves...la

 

[AdamD]

I doubt EA will ever take down free shards, they've been around for nearly the same amount of time as the game itself, but you've never seen any mention of a shard or the server emulators being shut down.

Take wow for instance, it has over 10 million subscribers, yet there are hundreds of free servers for it and I don't remember reading anything recently about free servers being shut down

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Ignore the PvP comments...and get back to work on fixing the game for us thieves...la

[/ QUOTE ]

*Slap Rico's fingers*

 

[Guest]

IMO, PvP isn't PvP unless there's risk vs reward. Therefor, WoW PvP is anything but. I know countless people who, when getting killed in WoW, just say, "Oh well," and go AFK for a bathroom break, simply because there is ZERO penalty for dieing.

In UO, people either high-tail it away from a PK, or fight to the death, knowing that there very much is a penalty for death.

With that, every single server World of Warcraft owns is a PvM server. Some just allow you to tickle players of other races.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

IMO, PvP isn't PvP unless there's risk vs reward. Therefor, WoW PvP is anything but. I know countless people who, when getting killed in WoW, just say, "Oh well," and go AFK for a bathroom break, simply because there is ZERO penalty for dieing.

In UO, people either high-tail it away from a PK, or fight to the death, knowing that there very much is a penalty for death.

With that, every single server World of Warcraft owns is a PvM server. Some just allow you to tickle players of other races.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you do not get looted in WOW but it may still be annoying to ge interrupted when trying to do quests and cost you alot of running. Even when VS Old UO, WOWs PvP servers are very soft, it would be to much for players who hate dying to other players.

It's still cool, when attacked and the attacker do end up dead or run off. I will still call it PvP.

 

[imported_Rocky_Balboa]

Maybe my view is very simplistic but it would take a very long post to make it sound otherwise. In a nutshell fighting evil is never enjoyable for the majority of people. In the real world we go to war to fight evil (perceived or otherwise).

In the real world we have many great warriors that fight because "someone must stand against evil" and in real life sooner or later you must take a stand to defend what you believe in. But most of these great warriors will tell you that they hate having to go to war and not many enjoy it. Robert E Lee once said "It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it".

In a virtual world most people are seeking entertainment and there is no necessity to fight evil. If you try and force them to fight most would rather find a "safe zone" or even another virtual world of which there are many.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Maybe my view is very simplistic but it would take a very long post to make it sound otherwise. In a nutshell fighting evil is never enjoyable for the majority of people. In the real world we go to war to fight evil (perceived or otherwise).

In the real world we have many great warriors that fight because "someone must stand against evil" and in real life sooner or later you must take a stand to defend what you believe in. But most of these great warriors will tell you that they hate having to go to war and not many enjoy it. Robert E Lee once said "It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it".

In a virtual world most people are seeking entertainment and there is no necessity to fight evil. If you try and force them to fight most would rather find a "safe zone" or even another virtual world of which there are many.

[/ QUOTE ]

UO is not like the real world, it's a fantasy world with good and evil npc's and good and evil pc's.
Lets say we improved the brigand spawns and made them more powerful and roaming, ganking player chars on their way,
Most players would have no problems with this evil npc, but if it is evil pc's, we get alot of complains.
If noone want to fight, lets delete all evil npc's and monsters and close the dungens.
Then lets money and artifacts drop on ground, not to far from the bank and player homes.
It may sounds cool for you but I want to keep my dangerous wild world where challenges from other players are a part of the game.
I want my RL safe, as my RL body need more than a few bandages to heal up and I only have one life in RL.
In my virtuel world, I can risk dying and losing stuff. I do not really get hurt, because it is not real, it's a game, it's a fantasy where I can do everything without risking my RL health or RL items/money.

 

[imported_Rocky_Balboa]

Speaking strictly of PVP .......

In the real world, one must fight evil to protect yourself or someone else. The incentive is to survive and most believe that if I die I will go to a better place.

In a game, what is the incentive of fighting evil? I'm not really protecting myself or anyone else because there is no real death in a virtual world?

 

[Guest]

In some respects the game is a bit soft on reds nowadays, but in others, (they're locked out of all but 1 facet for example) there is a disadvantage.

One big disparity is that while I'd actively chase down reds in the past, now it's like "what's the point?" nothing bad happens to them, they only stand to lose insurance gold, and the chances are they're a much better fighter too. So I don't bother. Not good when I'm GM of an old player justice guild lol.

We need reasons to go to Fel, activities that aren't all around PvP and a meaningful system of justice for thieves and murderers.

Now I know I drew a lot of parallels between UO and RL, but my view is that while we can be served with life sentences in RL, we can't truly kill another char in UO. So I think we need to make murder a bad thing in UO without causing players to delete chars, because PKs don't permanently harm their victims. Aside from scaring them out of Fel

As suggested elsewhere, there's the idea that insurance costs for murderers increases depending on their murder count. I'd suggest that slaying a PK gets you 100% of the insurance gold he's paid too. Rather than the bounty system where innocents' gold was collected then some reds cashed in on themselves, this payout would come solely from the red's pocket. We all know what insurance companies are like when you work in a risky profession or drive badly. Though next thing we'll see is a no claims bonus hehe.

Penalties for thieves are a bit of a hard discussion, because I think the class needs to be made more viable (and just fun) before we can really put heads together and work out a good solution. I'd be happy to do the odd bit of manual labour with my thief though.

Mmm, another essay... sorry

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>


I think that DD's contention that the "good guys can't win" is spot on. The problem, in my eyes, is not that players seek better rewards and lower risk, but that we must depend on the devs to create enduring lower risk situations. Players did stand up for themselves before Trammel, but the resulting peace was guaranteed to last only until the bad guys resurrected themselves or until a critical mass of the good guys logged out for the night--a poor reward for their efforts. We don't, after all, have to worry about barbarian hordes wandering the streets as soon as we go in for dinner. (Except maybe in Cleveland. Yeah, yeah--I kid!)

I had the privilege of visiting fairly well-guarded towns on Lake Superior in their heyday (Rivendell and Destiny come to mind), but even in these towns there were often problems with maintaining a guard presence. For anyone who wanted to focus on something other than killing reds, Trammel was an appealing alternative.

Allowing players to create safe zones in Felucca is one good idea. I wonder, though, if we'd just end up with Felucca completely paved over with townstones.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've pretty much spent my entire 8+ years in and around RP towns (my own for most of that time heh) so I know exactly what you mean. Some nights you had enough guards, others you didn't. I think though, had we had a good benefit on those occasions that we did succeed, we'd have shrugged off the nights we were defeated. Not that defeat bothered us, but on Europa we were the least attacked town and had it very gentle. We brokered peace agreements with reds and PvPers that still stand to this day, but not everyone is like me inviting reds and dewds into a tavern

I too could see lots of folk trying to pave over bits of Fel, but I guess there are ways to work that system up better. Like requiring a bit of financial upkeep to pay for guards, and that all players within the area had to agree to join before it was set up. I've never had a huge problem with reds and griefers so I'd like fairly basic protection, just enough to switch on so I could run an event for Tram players too and give them the security they'd need to feel more comfortable.

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

You must never have ran into Derek, the Samoan wonder-bully, when you were a kid. I stood up to him, once. There is no standing up to zerg guilds that have dominated the game for half a decade. YOu think it is? Go to a new server and take them on. Please take screenies. We'd all like to see it. Join them or cry. Standing up is not an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I've met some real bad eggs too, I would never deny that the worst ones exist. Or that they are near impossible to take on. What can I say? I don't have all the answers, I just wish we had an alternative to watching Fel crumble. Trying something is much better than denying the problem is there. If the devs truly don't want to tackle Fel and improve it, I almost wish they'd close it so I could leave. I've tied too many years of my life into my town to do that though.

<blockquote><hr>


I don't remember EA mandating everyone move to Trammel. Seems to me I moved all on my own accord. It wasn't the PvP that caused me to move either. Please keep in mind I'm not saying Trammel was a good way to create a needed safety land and more housing but it wasn't forced on anyone. Anyone that lived in fel still had all the luxuries they had previously. Those who were forced to live together for protection were given another choice they had not had previously however. The choice to live without fear and the ability to play the game solo if they so wished. While I know there a whole host of people who would be more than happy to explain that the M in MMO stands for multiplayer I can assure them all there are plenty of players who don't care. I run one of the biggest guilds in UO and I like to play by myself on occasion.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, while I accept the players weren't forced, EA saw as we all did that many many players left Fel. It was their subsequent actions where Fel was virtually handed over to hardcore PvPers and no real efforts were made to bring normal players back in.

Content like champ spawns doesn't encourage the typical player who didn't like all that risky PvP nastiness. It didn't help the old player towns and it certainly did a lot of harm to PvMers like myself who hunted in dungeons now turned over to champs. I could rant all night about the no recalling into or out of dungeons thing. Much as I hated Tram at the time, I either PvMd in there or faced gank squads coming at me when I could do nothing more than stand and die or run and die.

<blockquote><hr>

That's funny. I go to fel and see people every time I go and my shard is a lower pop one. Dunno what to tell ya here. What do you want a dev to do there? Add carrots? That only works for a very short period of time. If fel wants to stand on it's own 2 feet pvp needs to change, not the facets.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are people on my shard in Fel, but many Fel residents (myself included) spend silly amounts of time "off facet" PvMing for arties, peerless and so on. More content on the tram facets and virtually none in Fel determines where you spend time if you're not solely playing for PvP.

I'm not asking for carrots. I want Fel to be treated like Tram. Given new content, given event access. A new dungeon or 2 to replace the ones ruined by champ spawns. Places where fel player can tame cu sidhe, where we can do the rest of the peerless spawns. There is no real reason for the average player to enter Fel at all. Aside from powerscrolls and PvP, we have nothing that other facets can't offer.

Oki, I'm done spamming posts now lol.

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Speaking strictly of PVP .......

In the real world, one must fight evil to protect yourself or someone else. The incentive is to survive and most believe that if I die I will go to a better place.

In a game, what is the incentive of fighting evil? I'm not really protecting myself or anyone else because there is no real death in a virtual world?

[/ QUOTE ]

Roleplay
Stop mixing RL life and Virtuel life.
You can compare dualing to playing chess. You do not die in the game, but you fight to show your skills and win.
PvP is a game just like foodball is a game, you play to win the glory.
The evil in the game is just your opponent in the game.
Kids do play cops and robbers. Try to explain why they do that.

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

Designer dragon is not an end authority of all things MMORPG. He has been wrong on many, many, many instances both in Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies.

BTW, I think Star Wars Galaxies has even less subscribers than UO now. You can make whatever excuses you want to regarding its failure but as the lead designer of its creation he bears much of the responsibility.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Designer dragon is not an end authority of all things MMORPG. He has been wrong on many, many, many instances both in Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies.

BTW, I think Star wars galaxies has even less subscribers than UO now. You can make whatever excuses you want to regarding its failure but as the lead designer of its creation he bears much of the responsibility too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I say I do agree with everything he said? I don't but the text is still worth reading and a good basis for the debat about UO and PvP.

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

I disagree that it is a good basis. Eve eating apple metaphor comes to my mind.

And my comments in previous post were more of a general FYI because lot of people tend to worship him. I don't blame them because he writes beautifully - too bad he is not half as good at implementation.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I simply defend the majority of UO players who have been labeled "care bears" or "trammeis" over the years by the one track minded jack holes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, call trammies what you will I don't blame them. Like dd said in the post, players will go to the safest easiest method available to achieve their goals, its only common sense.

But I will never, ever, ever say that tram was a good idea, because it wasn't. It was a terrible idea that did a lot of damage to the game. They made it TOO safe, again as dd intimated. Not to mention how stupid it was to split up the population and destroy all the great communities.

I won't say that the original design was right, or that it didn't need changing, but tram was possibly the worst solution available. I get that they probably had a short time frame to come up with a solution, but whatever. It still sucked.

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

<blockquote><hr>

and destroy all the great communities.


[/ QUOTE ]

Most people don't realize the amazing communities that existed in UO pre Trammel. The grand and majestic player towns that flourished. It really felt like you were part of a thriving world. No, I never pk'd anyone.

 

[pallas]

<blockquote><hr>


I won't say that the original design was right, or that it didn't need changing, but tram was possibly the worst solution available. I get that they probably had a short time frame to come up with a solution, but whatever. It still sucked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed... and it destroyed a lot of the communities.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

The fundamental problem is that (without a Fel/Tram split) if you want to create a peaceful land, a good land, you can't. You can PK the PKer, but you can't remove them from the game, you can't confine them to a spawn area, you can't boot another player from your server. Besides, the PKer will always have an experience advantage in PvP over the non-PKer because, well, one likes PKing and one doesn't. So the game, by its design, will degenerate into endless gang warfare, with no "good", just tribal loyalties that may or may not have some roleplaying focus. That's not a heroic game to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you really unable to envision a system that lets players remove trouble makers from an area without gm intervention? Honestly it wouldn't take that much effort even to devise such a system (implementing thats another thing). Angel Isle anyone?

As for the pkers always having the edge, thats just inaccurate. If you give players some comprehensive tools to police themselves, there WILL be "good" pvpers who will step up and take the bad ones on, and win.

You could have seen these kind of players back preren, when player run towns had "guards" which were blue (sometimes red) players would would defend those who either didn't want to, or didnt know how to fight, when the red went on a raid.

The have been similar groups on siege (Knights of the silver serpent pop into to mind most prominently), although I don't know that we have one now, but they did exist, and were effective, except for the fact that there were no tools to keep the baddies away. They could always res and come back seconds later.

It just takes some though, and imagination, and yeah I know the ship has already sailed for UO on that score, but its silly to think that its impossible.

 

[imported_Rocky_Balboa]

<blockquote><hr>

Roleplay
Stop mixing RL life and Virtuel life.
You can compare dualing to playing chess. You do not die in the game, but you fight to show your skills and win.
PvP is a game just like foodball is a game, you play to win the glory.
The evil in the game is just your opponent in the game.
Kids do play cops and robbers. Try to explain why they do that.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you don't want to talk about good vs evil in the context of RL vs Game then why did you make the original post? That's exactly what DD was talking about.

OSI tried to make the game all PVP from the beginning and when EQ came along and people realized that they didn't have to be forced into PVP then they left UO. Why is it so difficult to understand that most people don't like PVP just for the "glory" (not sure what glory you speak of but that's your term). If you try and force people to do it they will just find another game .... OSI finally realized this and made trammel instead of loosing accounts ......

There are PVP only games (battlefield, team fortress ... etc) but they dont draw the subscription dollars that an MMO does. Most are free or generate add based income. This alone should indicate that most people are not willing to pay for a PVP only game .....

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

and destroy all the great communities.


[/ QUOTE ]

Most people don't realize the amazing communities that existed in UO pre Trammel. The grand and majestic player towns that flourished. It really felt like you were part of a thriving world. No, I never pk'd anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read DD's text, that was what he wanted UO to be. Both him and Richard Garritson (sp?) did leave UO before we got Trammel. I don't think any of them wanted the split but maybe EA overruled their wishes for UO and that was the reason they did leave us.

He did not understand the PvP community but I think he wanted them to be a part of the game and wanted player justice to work.

Making a perfect world with room for all is not possible. Sadly he did not believe in Non PvP and PvP servers. I think he feared both would fail. He once told me, it would be easier to make a dark shard than a happy shard.
It take less coding to make the players do the justice than make the system make justice. Trammel is not free for griefers and scammers.

 

[Guest]

I think getting looted is what many players hate. If you made a PvP server without looting of player bodies, it would be filled very fast. WOW prove that very well.
Now I like looting as a part of the game, even when I rarely do loot my victims/enemies

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

I wonder how different UO would have been (better or worse?) if instead of Trammel they had implemented things like player towns which give the town members ability to implement defenses etc.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I wonder how different UO would have been (better or worse?) if instead of Trammel they had implemented things like player towns which give the town members ability to implement defenses etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

It do sounds complicated and I don't like npc guards.

 

[Guest]

Yeah remember when champs first came out and you didnt lose your stuff? Scads of people where there.

I also begrudgingly agree that being looted is a big part of why people don't like pvp.

I honestly think people would have no issues with pvp non con or not, if it was a situation where an area had a quality resource such as pscrolls, and when people die the don't loose their stuff, or maybe just lose what they picked up while in the area. SO it gives pvpers a sense of reason behind the pvp, and lets people who wouldn't usually pvp get involve without losing anything but their time.

Oh and a duel option (that works on any facet) with betting options is way overdue.

 

[Guest]

LOL, I remember the big fights that the Dungeon entrances. Players waiting for the timers to go so they could re-enter the dungeon. LOL, as a thief that was great because anytime there is a small area with lots of people...there is usually some good loot to find...la

 

[Guest]

Yep that's why some players keep asking for Pub 16 rules

 

[imported_EnigmaMaitreya]

....

One big disparity is that while I'd actively chase down reds in the past, now it's like "what's the point?" nothing bad happens to them, they only stand to lose insurance gold, and the chances are they're a much better fighter too. So I don't bother. Not good when I'm GM of an old player justice guild lol.

.....

Now I know I drew a lot of parallels between UO and RL, but my view is that while we can be served with life sentences in RL, we can't truly kill another char in UO. So I think we need to make murder a bad thing in UO without causing players to delete chars, because PKs don't permanently harm their victims. Aside from scaring them out of Fel

....

Wenchy

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two major categories of PvP.

The PvP were all parties are consenting.

The PvP were one or more parties are not consenting.

When an individual decides to FORCE their game play on another individual, it begins to exceed a simple construct of "The Murderer cant really kill the Victim so why should the Murderer be punished ... harshly"

Why don't we just name all the PvP people to Freddy or Jason or any of the Indestructible and guaranteed to be right back Evil's?

Jason comes and tries to kill me and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails and fails for ever.

How long before it is apparent that this is simply NOT fun? It is harassment and griefing. What possible Loot could Jason be carrying that would have the slightest value to me when I can go buy 5Mgps for $10US?

There is PvP and it can be fun and it can be Community Building. BUT it absolutely must be within the constraints of mutual consent.

If you want a viable PvP UO style, then give the victim the power to decide if the Murder is to be deleted. FORCE the aggressor to consider his actions. Give the Victim a sense of power/control.

The following is not to you but to others in general.

In one sense, it is still fairly incredible that the PvP crowd still thinks the majority of UO players want to be exposed to blatant naked thieves and getting PK'd (aka the romanticizing the bad old days of UO into some grotesque picture of harmony in UO imposed by players).

You would have thought it would be crystal clear that the majority of players that left for BLUE / Carebear EQ servers made a very clear statement they did not want the rampant pointless hack/exploiting PKing of UO.

You would have thought it would be crystal clear that the majority of players abandoning houses and moving to Trammel to NEVER return to Felluca made a very clear statement they did not want the rampant pointless hack/exploiting PKing of UO.

As for DD, He absolutely had great ideas. He tended to be more right than wrong.

BUT

He also openly accepted and protected Hackers, Exploiters, Cheats, Griefers and Harassers. As the post said he really thought he could ... change them, that he could ... control them. He genuinely thought people having their houses looted via an exploit/hack/cheat would make them LOVE UO.

Wow, the romanticizing DD and the Bad Old Days of UO are just really ... strange.

Some seemed to say that DD left before Trammel was created, that is true, BUT they also seemingly have never seen or forgot these IMMORTAL words of DD. Acutely lets do them in sequence of statement in a great thread on CoB.

There can NOT be a PvP switch in UO, it is impossible.

.... Most of EQ's Rulesets are layed out in that thread after that statement ....

Over MY DEAD BODY will there be a NON PvP environment.

DD had everything going for him and HE was driving the bus that steered the demise of UO from what it had been. HE chose to IGNORE the majority of players thinking they were to STUPID to know what they really wanted.

You should have picked up on that when I recounted the FAMOUS "No the House Keys on a vendor will be locked down. No I promise they will be." only to need to say an ERROR has occurred and do NOTHING for 3 real life days as the Landscape is littered with peoples belongings. I sure as Hades didnt fall for his ... PROMISE.

 

[Guest]

No my point is if they made a pvp production shard or 2 or 3 they would become quite populated. There are many people out there that play games just for the pvp aspect. UO offers the best pvp system out of any game on the market. I by no means have a problem with PvM only players just the ones that feel that their playstyle is better than mine and call us all griefers. thats why I feel we need our own server(s).

Alot of the pvpers on free shards at one time played UOEA and really went to these servers either they hated AOS or the tram ruleset my friend played pacific and Siege up till or shortly after AOS. Most free servers have pre 16 code some have tram only rule sets some have fell only rulesets some have both and at least one is an Ugly WoWish type of UO. Some have their own unique maps that look nothing like EA maps. When he showed me all of the shards he plays (they go down often) all pvp, I was amazed with how many people I saw.

I dont think the majority of people play free shards for the purpose that they are free but for the purpose that EA cannot or will not provide a system that fits into their type of playstyle. Free shards are kinda like the different servers wow has that is how I like to see it.

If Ea opened up a Fell rule production shard (westcoast) I would drop all my stuff on pacific in an instant and start new. As a 9year 11 month vet I Have seen and understand all playstyles and know the harm 8 years later of mirroring the game and calling it the "safe new land named after our 2nd moon" then aos and insurance. People need to loose things and have them break! Balance of the game cant survive with out it and hasnt.

BTW at almost any givin time I log on look around lagcity err. luna on pacific I notice more Pvpers than pvmers almost 2/3 of the people are known to me as a pvper and thats not counting the afk count burners.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I still believe that running servers themed around PvP or not is also a bit of a waste of time. The amount of wolves who want to play on a wolf-only server is way smaller than the total amount of wolves, and generally speaking, wolf-only servers are extremely underpopulated. You might as well devote those resources elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]



Checkmate.





It's only the same thing me and a thousand other "Care bears" have been saying for years now. For all who whine about a classic shard, or think player conflict was the bee's knee's of UO, read this article, then read it again and again till it sinks in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stig, before you dig too deep of a hole, please read fully, i have read it. maybe you could clarify it, but it is saying a shard of "PvPers <font color="red"> OR NOT </font> " would be a waste of space, also, if you read the whole thing, it says, sitting in a world where you never have to deal with the other elements, doesnt make you a better person, so hiding in tram, in essence, and never visiting fel never builds you as a person, because you dont become a "hero" by hiding from the problems. and the part you quoted, said no one wants a PvP only shard, and personally, i dont remember anyone asking for a PvP Only shard, we just want a shard that includes a real option for the people who arent afraid of the challenges offered by a real person on the other end of the line....

it says in the same statement, that you quoted btw, that no one wants a pvp free shard either, you got the <font color="red"> PvP or Not </font> part right?

oh yeah, Wolf only was what i was talking about, i agree with the fact that a wolf only shard would be boring, toss in all kinds of life, but dont supress the wolves because the pandas want a different cage....

 

[Guest]

I think it's necessary to separate the need for justice and the level that some players would ask for right after the attack occurs. Some players would always seek to kill off a character, while others shrug it off and move on.

It depends how personally you take it, and also if you, in the heat of anger kept going back to try regaining your own honour in a fight you'd never win. I've seen many "victims" who actually started the fight over a killed horse. Or who after being killed just kept going back to be reskilled. Or yelled at their killer, who otherwise might have given their kit back. I'm not sure those players all made UO a better place. Even RP guilds tired of some of them

One of the reasons I hated the recall block in dungeons within Fel was that it removed my choice to engage when it was clear I'd be ganked silly. I have never supported that change on any level because it encouraged gank squads to raid dungeons till none of us ventured in them. That said, it's one thing to create safe areas and options for players to choose if they engage in PvP, and another to not only open up whole safe facets, but to drop constant content, items and events in that area so the first one is emptied. That destroyed communities. That's what we got and that IMHO insults the facet of Felucca which began this game

Wenchy

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

No my point is if they made a pvp production shard or 2 or 3 they would become quite populated. There are many people out there that play games just for the pvp aspect. UO offers the best pvp system out of any game on the market. I by no means have a problem with PvM only players just the ones that feel that their playstyle is better than mine and call us all griefers. thats why I feel we need our own server(s).

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

and

Checkmate.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I still believe that running servers themed around PvP or not is also a bit of a waste of time. The amount of wolves who want to play on a wolf-only server is way smaller than the total amount of wolves, and generally speaking, wolf-only servers are extremely underpopulated. You might as well devote those resources elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]



Checkmate.



It's only the same thing me and a thousand other "Care bears" have been saying for years now. For all who whine about a classic shard, or think player conflict was the bee's knee's of UO, read this article, then read it again and again till it sinks in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you miss this paragraph?

<blockquote><hr>

Lastly, and feel free to call me a stupid idealist on this: I still believe we need to get all kinds of people into one game. That niche products are all well and good, but we already KNOW how to make those, and they aren't going to teach us anything interesting about ourselves. It's so easy to fall into ruts and niches in our real lives, and I want online worlds to offer us exotic experiences and interaction with people we wouldn't interact with otherwise, and a chance to try out lifestyles and worldviews we otherwise wouldn't have, a chance to try to solve problems that we find difficult to tackle in the real world. Otherwise, why bother making them? I am not that interested in them solely as games--games are all over the place, and there are plenty of narrowly focused communities out there. You can find a support group or hobbyist club for just about anything you want, but you're mostly going to find other people like you there. And I am not nearly as interested in how people interact with likeminded souls as I am in how to bridge gaps between people.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is impossible with your version of how UO should be.


CHECKMATE!

 

[MysticLlamaFTW]

<blockquote><hr>

It's only the same thing me and a thousand other "Care bears" have been saying for years now. For all who whine about a classic shard, or think player conflict was the bee's knee's of UO, read this article, then read it again and again till it sinks in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say it was "only" player conflict. It was player INTERACTION that was the bee's knees in UO. And yes, that includes PvP, PKing, but also includes friendships, guilds, stealing, helping, teaching, trading, and so on. The reason why we play MMO's instead of single player games, is exactly because other people will always provide us with a wider range of responses than a computer intelligence.

"It is conflict that strengthens us and isolation that weakens us, erodes us."

I bow to you if you know who said that

 

[Guest]

you mean there are other players in a mmorpg? i thought they only joined for the fun of fighting a computer, and the awesome graphics? i mean, with no need to relate to another person isnt life just wonderful? wow, this opens a whole new world for me, imean, other people...... immagine how good sex can be now!!! and when i play football, i thought running back and forth alone was fun, geez, and hockey!! holy crap, this is amazing, the idea of other people!!!

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

you mean there are other players in a mmorpg? i thought they only joined for the fun of fighting a computer, and the awesome graphics? i mean, with no need to relate to another person isnt life just wonderful? wow, this opens a whole new world for me, imean, other people...... immagine how good sex can be now!!! and when i play football, i thought running back and forth alone was fun, geez, and hockey!! holy crap, this is amazing, the idea of other people!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean every single other ultima title in existance didn't have a multi-player option where I could kill my friends in it and have real fun? That doesn't make any sense! I mean why would someone play a game if they couldn't kill other people in it. Talk to them?! Be friendly?! What's the point in that?!

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

you mean there are other players in a mmorpg? i thought they only joined for the fun of fighting a computer, and the awesome graphics? i mean, with no need to relate to another person isnt life just wonderful? wow, this opens a whole new world for me, imean, other people...... immagine how good sex can be now!!! and when i play football, i thought running back and forth alone was fun, geez, and hockey!! holy crap, this is amazing, the idea of other people!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean every single other ultima title in existance didn't have a multi-player option where I could kill my friends in it and have real fun? That doesn't make any sense! I mean why would someone play a game if they couldn't kill other people in it. Talk to them?! Be friendly?! What's the point in that?!

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean every single other ultima title was a Massively Multiplayer Online type of game too?!?!?

I think DD said the most powerful thing right here with this quote

<blockquote><hr>

Being safe from evil is, in my mind, an uneven tradeoff for the fact that you don't get to be heroes anymore, in that you can just opt out of fighting evil. It may be nobody wants to be heroes except when it doesn't count, when it isn't challenging, that people would rather fight "pretend evil" than the real thing, but I don't personally believe that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I, along with many, many, many vets who have been here since day one fell in love with UO for this very reason. For ONCE in my entire life, out of all the games that I have played... I finally found a game that allowed me to fight real evil... the evil embodied in all of the players who's characters were not aligned with the virtues this game has been based upon.

I love games for their stories... I'm a huge RPG fan but, I play those games as single player games... for their story.

I've played Ultima Online for 11 years now as a Knight of Justice... a noto-pk according to the codes laid forth in Ultima. I absolutely... LOVE this playstyle as it feels good to fight for something other than the sake of just fighting.

I can't stand the the direction the rules and restrictions imposed upon our community that have made a mockery of what this absolute gem of a game was supposed to be in this gaming industry.

I've had to adapt over and over again just to find a way to experience my playstyle. I have been disappointed time and time again the way the community has been divided across the board to appease ONE of the many many playstyles this game used to offer. I have been frustrated by the way this game has outcasted, disenfranchised and otherwise destroyed the playstyles of so many other players who I'd otherwise have the opportunity to interact with today had they did things properly.

I am absolutely fed up with the direction this game has taken for the past 8 years of constantly adding artificial content, pixel crap to collect and short lived "quests" while constantly chipping away at the real content that inhabited these worlds... the ROLE players, and not the "how art thee" types but, the pirates, thieves, murderers, savages, orcs, hunters, and so on... the characters that gave Sosaria... LIFE.


This is what has set Ultima Online apart from every other MMO in the entire industry... what makes this game so damn special almost 11 years after it's birth.

And they say people quit in droves when Ultima Online was a world just like this... when there is absolutely NO evidence that the population wasn't growing.

The population hasn't grown since and has actually declined since this game has tried to be like every other game out there in the industry.

I think its about time this game returned to its roots and began once again setting itself apart from all of the other MMOs.

I also know that there are so many players who think the same thing.

Make your voices heard my friends! Its high time we define just what makes this game so damn special to so many of us!

 

[Guest]

I hear your call! I shall join your crusade to have Fel deleted!! Let us purge the evil PvPers once and for all! It is a cause worthy of song and ... oh, that's not what you were suggesting? It sure sounded like it for a moment.

I'm a Trammie. Get ever it. Get used to it. Because I'm every inch as possessive of my vision of the true meaning of UO as you are of yours. So we can learn to coexist in our separate but touching facets or we lobby to be exiled to different servers or we can drive each other from the community crying.

edit: oops - post was editted while reply that follows was being composed

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

I hear your call! I shall join your crusade to have Fel deleted!! Let us purge the evil PvPers once and for all! It is a cause worthy of song and ... oh, that's not what you were suggesting? It sure sounded like it for a moment.

I'm a Trammie. Get ever it. Get used to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't get so upset that your playstyle isn't the only one that matters anymore!

Your playstyle has a place in this game but, not at the expense of mine or anyone elses.

Get used to it.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Get used to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, you must have missed your rant:

I can't stand the the direction the rules and restrictions imposed upon our community that have made a mockery of what this absolute gem of a game was supposed to be in this gaming industry.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Get used to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, you must have missed your rant:

I can't stand the the direction the rules and restrictions imposed upon our community that have made a mockery of what this absolute gem of a game was supposed to be in this gaming industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, you must have missed all those publishes in the past year which were Felucca oriented.

Thanks for quoting what the Devs see too! After all, didn't all of the players already state that the thing that's missed most about UO before Trammel was "Community"?

I wonder why you missed that rant by the majority of UO's community

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I'm sorry, you must have missed all those publishes in the past year which were Felucca oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

bold are Felucca oriented, Italics are Tram oriented.


* Publish 51 - March 27, 2008
o Pet ball changes, pet AI improvements, various bug fixes
* Publish 50 - February 14, 2008
o Improved runic intensities and BoD chances, greater dragons, BoS and Salvage Bag fixes, disabled Halloween 2007, activated Valentine's Day 2008 activities (counting as Tram credit here because of poetry/chocolates/scavenger hunt)
* Publish 49 - January 23, 2008
o Changes to the character database

2007

* Publish 48 - November 27, 2007
o Salvage Bag, Doom Gauntlet changes, Faction changes, Blood Oath fixes, Bag of Sending nerf, various monster strength/loot buffs
* Publish 47 - September 25, 2007
o 10th Anniversary legacy dungeon drop system (I'm counting that as Fel-oriented because of the overwhelming difference in drop rates), 10th Anniversary gifts
* Publish 46 - August 10, 2007
o PvP balances/changes, KR crafting menu functionality revamps, new KR macro functionality, resource randomization, various bug fixes
* Publish 45 - May 25, 2007
o Stat gain changes and other miscellaneous changes
* Publish 44 - April 30, 2007
o Discontinuation of the 3d client, New Player Experience, destruction of Old Haven, emergence of New Haven, Arms Lore changes

(but at this point, I will exit this thread for I fear I will have nothing more constructive to add - I will check back to read any rebuttals though)