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Well I agree with that suggestion.
Honestly I'm sick of arguing points regarding pvp with people who do not and will not PvP no matter if there is or isn't nerfs.
I have much stronger thoughts then that but we'll leave it civil.
Many good points have been outlined that will have no baring on pvm or gameplay for those that consistently try to derail this thread with utter nonsense. There's no need to veer into talk of power scrolls or any other game mechanics. This is regarding a pretty much unanimously decided overpowered template in PvP with suggested fixes. Leave it at that.
Fact of the matter is, if things aren't fixed I like many others before and after will just take our business elsewhere. It is what it is. It's not meant to be a take my ball and go home threat. I have much stronger feelings regarding the state of PvP from taming right now considering I quit for a long time only to return because of how well balanced the previous publish made PvP template variety. This one had promise with revitalizing power scrolls but the pets are too much.
I have much stronger thoughts then that but we'll leave it civil.
Many good points have been outlined that will have no baring on pvm or gameplay for those that consistently try to derail this thread with utter nonsense. There's no need to veer into talk of power scrolls or any other game mechanics. This is regarding a pretty much unanimously decided overpowered template in PvP with suggested fixes. Leave it at that.
Fact of the matter is, if things aren't fixed I like many others before and after will just take our business elsewhere. It is what it is. It's not meant to be a take my ball and go home threat. I have much stronger feelings regarding the state of PvP from taming right now considering I quit for a long time only to return because of how well balanced the previous publish made PvP template variety. This one had promise with revitalizing power scrolls but the pets are too much.
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Been watching a lot of suggestions. Curious what would the pvp crowd consider these as changes that could balance things out:
- Player to pet damage does double damage. With resists as they now are and of course high hit points this to me doesn't seem unreasonable.
- Pets do 50% less damage to players
-New slayers for all pets not currently having a slayer
-Remove dismount from pets.
- Remove teleport from pets spell cycle.
- Pet disengages from battle once controller is killed. However can attack back if attacked.
Comments suggestions?
- Player to pet damage does double damage. With resists as they now are and of course high hit points this to me doesn't seem unreasonable.
- Pets do 50% less damage to players
-New slayers for all pets not currently having a slayer
-Remove dismount from pets.
- Remove teleport from pets spell cycle.
- Pet disengages from battle once controller is killed. However can attack back if attacked.
Comments suggestions?
cetrick how effective are tamers outside of yew gate?
I know you asked Cetric but honestly I don't think we know the answer yet. I haven't experienced a big dungeon/harrower fight where a guild brought lots of pets (although I would like to).
You bring up a good point - too much of PVP is based around Yew gate and Yew bank.
You bring up a good point - too much of PVP is based around Yew gate and Yew bank.
I think the real issue with this is Yew Gate, and making hot fixes because pvp is too OP at the gate. Im sure if there was another place the battle took place like a dungeon where mages can teleport the efficiency of the pet would diminish.
Except with higher resist the pets do not get stuck and they still teleport onto you in the spawn.
Extremely. Checkout the najasaurus for a case study. Teleporting pets as aeyko said. Hell... Check out some of the aoe abilities that haven't been talked about or a pet that can castspellweaving wind/tstorm without needing a focus.
It's not even come into play yet but it is available.
Most of our fights are dungeons now because of scrolls. Pets are most effective in close quarters, more so than the gate. Wall the hallway and dump it mare. You wanna see nasty, stick a najasaurus in a close quarters grinder with venomous bite and poison breath for aoe abilities. Runs through para fields and dps everything on screen.
Anymore questions? You've been playing wow since the patch, yet you come up with ideas where you haven't experienced the gameplay.
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Pets do have the same range as players.
The difference with Pets (NPC's in general) is that the range is checked at the beginning of the casting process, as opposed to the "targetting" which is at the end of the casting process as it is with players.
When has Taming/Summon not been an issue in PvP? For any game? On any platform? Ever..
I played a few weeks ago killed majority of the people I fought, I didn't see 5 tamers running around, however I do carry a bird slayer for the phoenix, and they seem to die in 3 to 4 hits. I do have ninja and I do use a magical short bow as well... Not saying that is going to keep me alive vs 5 birds on me but 5 of anything on me Would more or less kill me.
How long would it take a archer with a slayer to kill a snake with 1000 hp? again, adjustments would need to be made and experienced pvpers are more than capable of doing that.
Pets in wow suck more than Pets in UO when pvping
they daze you and slow you and disable you... the only way to live pretty much is pop defensive spells... but you spec or skill into different talents in order to prepare for the fight and use different strategies.
I played a few weeks ago killed majority of the people I fought, I didn't see 5 tamers running around, however I do carry a bird slayer for the phoenix, and they seem to die in 3 to 4 hits. I do have ninja and I do use a magical short bow as well... Not saying that is going to keep me alive vs 5 birds on me but 5 of anything on me Would more or less kill me.
How long would it take a archer with a slayer to kill a snake with 1000 hp? again, adjustments would need to be made and experienced pvpers are more than capable of doing that.
Pets in wow suck more than Pets in UO when pvping
Out of all the pets used, the Phoenix had been the easiest kill honestly. Bird slayer and people didn't take them past 4 slots so they sat around 400hp and not maxed regens and stuff
Logon and tell me how long it takes you to kill a najasaurus on your archer. I have one you can test against.
Daze you and slow you and disable you huh? Gosh that sounds like just a few of the things pet's can do in uo now. Oh and hit you for 40 hp melee hits and have 46 damage spells while they are at it
This topic has had plenty of discussion. I have to reiterate... they are not in the same league... you obviously don't play enough pvp to understand the differences between any archer template of any kind, (including a hybrid mage/archer temp... which no one plays anymore because of timing and poor defense...) and a teleporting, dismounting, casting, 900 hp monster that cannot be para'ed or fizzled... oh did I mention they reveal too??? - those are totally comparable... what it does in 3 seconds would take you 8-10 to cast it all
...but I have a proposition for you.
Let's get a dismounting teleport casting mare vs. you and really see how they compare- You can bring your archer since they are compatible and the 2 of you can do the dance and see how long you last...
And then let's repeat process, accept add me with a bola and 4/6 chiv or mysticism and see how you stack up...
As far as pvp tamers go, balance went out the window...I would love to cripple taming at the knees in pvp...
@TheDrAJ - your proposition though seemingly fails for 2 reasons. 1. They don't check these boards except once in a blue moon- so we can talk till we are blue in the face... and you wouldn't know if they've seen it or not because they never communicate to our community anyways...
2. I fear the damage has been done... even tamers don't want to pvp in yew now because massive guilds (including my alma-mater) roll with pets 5-8 deep... it's no longer adaptive pvp. If you don't fight from a house and you don't have a tamer, you don't pvp...
Random rant...
Pvp sucks- I'm done for awhile - maybe forever...
My other hobby... Rares are in the worst state they've ever been... (not the place to argue this) ....
There is little to keep me here these days...
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They actually do read a lot of threads, they just don't write responses as often. I check the thread readers of things sometimes to see if they've read it, and in most cases they have. For example here is proof they have read this thread:
For what it's worth, here my suggestion.
Pets should debuff based on thier owners heat of combat flag (kinda like stat loss for factions/VvV)
Debuff would:
Cap all resists at 30
Cap dex and stamina at 150
Cap hit points at 500
Disable teleport and dismount special moves.
PvM pets would see no change.
Pets used to defend would retain thier full strength in PvP.
Pets should debuff based on thier owners heat of combat flag (kinda like stat loss for factions/VvV)
Debuff would:
Cap all resists at 30
Cap dex and stamina at 150
Cap hit points at 500
Disable teleport and dismount special moves.
PvM pets would see no change.
Pets used to defend would retain thier full strength in PvP.
So I assume this means you play and keep track of all the Japanese shards?
I assume you PVP and actually take part in PVP?
Wouldn't pets with those stats be worse than a tamed dragon pre-publish? Not a greater but a normal dragon?
I don't believe that for a second.
When i asked about the Phoenix the other day at the meet and greet they acted as though that was the 1st time anyone had mentioned it.....
They may stick their manes on threads but they certainly don't read them.
Perhaps stat wise, but not with all their other skills and specials.
Pets would keep the vast majority of their offensive capabilities, but just be a little easier to kill when their owner acts as the aggressor in a fight.
Good reasoning. Still think resists would be a bit low though. Was just curious.
Best suggestion I have seen so far. Might raise the resist cap to 45 or 50 though and make it across the board whether attacking or defending.
It's not a bad concept.... I could see basing things off of the owner/pets flag level. Debuffing the pets based on flag. You can't alter a pet when the owners been under combat for two minutes so you could work with the same timer.
Debuffing resists to 40s, hp to reasonable level, base damage, and skills to GM. They keep the new abilities but they are just less effective overall and easier to kill. Still potentially add slayers or remove ai caps and whatever
Good concept, thanks for adding real input @Merus
Debuffing resists to 40s, hp to reasonable level, base damage, and skills to GM. They keep the new abilities but they are just less effective overall and easier to kill. Still potentially add slayers or remove ai caps and whatever
Good concept, thanks for adding real input @Merus
If it wasn't in the thousands the lights would already be shut off
Yes... they would be tissue paper... they don't want an actual challenge though they want tamers to be back to being super easy squishy targets...
A challenge? So you're character being controlled by you isn't a challenge to dismiss inside of 30 seconds, so an invincible 900 hp dismounting teleporting Mare that you can control as well is your idea of a challenge? Oh this should be good. I'm staying tuned for what you PVP'd with before this publish because I've challenged every player on the main pvp shard (Atlantic) and beaten every top player while have never had anyone to show up to a fight with a super pet claiming they were "Challenging".... The fact here is that you do not want to be challenged. You want a pet to do all of the work for you. "All kill" and run for the hills... Snowflake PVP isn't challenging.
IE: 4/6 Chiv tamers with ninja... The flavor of the month at the moment.
Terms such as snowflake and whining trammies and such only creates animosity and detract from your arguments.
Im sorry to say but if your one v one pvping a tamer and his pet and your dying, you are NOT a top tier pvper. If you are being ganked wth tamers then it makes no difference, a gank is a gank, you would probably die anyway. Just wanted to point that out. LOL
The animosity is there no matter what is said. I'm a PVP'er, most of the people posting in the PVP thread are not. A good portion are not. And if snowflake pvp is offensive, imagine how offensive it is to someone who has to go to bat to fix it?
I rarely die, I think you of all people know this as you're one of the main people spamming "cheaters" when people beat you.This whole thread wasn't brought up for me "dying" this is brought up when groups are running around with 5 dismounting teleporting pets that is clearly abusing the publish. I don't have to defend my top tier status, there's a reason no one on any east coast or west coast shard will fight me individually. What I will defend is an argument on a publish that wasn't tested thoroughly and is now being exploited very similar to how Holy Fist and WOD archers were etc... A gank of 5 people I will survive 9 out of 10 times because I read the people and will not get dismounted among 5 people because I can cut back when I'm cut off with a dismount. You cannot read a pet that teleports from offscreen onto your character, especially when there is several of them. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.
Can anyone answer me this?
In UO, Coupled with the base concept of a mage (Mage/eval) or a dexer (Weap skill/tactics), what two skills of 200-240 skill points are more powerful for damage output than animal taming/animal lore?
In 200-240 skill points you are basically riding a Bot of a second player based on abilities, which is harder to kill, just without human intelligence to think for itself (but it really doesn't do that bad of a job) and the abilities it possesses and speed at which it can do things with its damage more than makes up for its lack of some intelligence.
In UO, Coupled with the base concept of a mage (Mage/eval) or a dexer (Weap skill/tactics), what two skills of 200-240 skill points are more powerful for damage output than animal taming/animal lore?
In 200-240 skill points you are basically riding a Bot of a second player based on abilities, which is harder to kill, just without human intelligence to think for itself (but it really doesn't do that bad of a job) and the abilities it possesses and speed at which it can do things with its damage more than makes up for its lack of some intelligence.
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You cant base it on that alone cetric. If three different people uses one of each of that scenario, the one with mage/eval would win if no other skills were involved. That's the only one that could defend themselves with heals and cures, the others would die cause they cant do anything but run. Don't get me wrong I do think they went way overboard with what could be done to pets. But their track record shows them going overboard with everything they do. Look at what's happened since imbuing came out, it went to reforging which wasn't a huge leap, but then they did global loot which was 20 times better then anything else in game. Pvp started really dying when global loot came out, it was the main cause of the super parry mages and the archers, both were not playable like that without the super gear. Pets are just the next thing that was overly done for no reason. Pvp was long from being balanced before this patch though.
A Tamer CAN dismount. You are acting like having a pet takes 720 skill points for some reason. All pvp tamers DO have wep skills. You clearly are a lost pup out here.
Just kill the dismount on pets, it shouldnt have been there in the first place, then let it settle a while and see how it goes before applying the massive list of knee jerk nerfs in this thread.
After a publish that was tamer focussed it was pretty obvious that PvPers would be out in force testing it out, encounters with entire groups using this are not really going to give a very accurate perspective
After a publish that was tamer focussed it was pretty obvious that PvPers would be out in force testing it out, encounters with entire groups using this are not really going to give a very accurate perspective
Yeah, this...
Oh i know, but i'm talking strictly damage output/disruption. Worry about healing/curing.defense in other skills
say in a 10 second window how much damage could be put out by any template. Now take any template with taming/lore. How much damage Could be laid out in that same window?
Forget about the crazy abilities and tele dismounts and whatever, just in damage output.
I' dont even have to add it up, no other templates will come even close.
In my opinion.. that means they don't have the same casting range. :0
I can almost guarantee that any 1v1 scenario of non tamer vs tamer with even closely equal skill levels is gunna be a win for the tamer. (obviously removing concepts of just running away and the like). I'd say 100% but then someones gunna point out some single scenario where RNG worked to a T and they armor ignored some squishy tamers face off 5 swings in a row.
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But don't want to comment because their lack of listening in the first place and pushing the patch out without listening to the testers is what got us here.
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Quick question.. yeah.. I am still following along *shrugs*
but..
Would slowing pet casting down to 2/6 and making pets "speak" power words be enough to quell the problem to a degree? I can definitely understand how not seeing any power words would be a pita.. heck, in all honesty it is a pita for us PvM'ers too. I like knowing wth my pet is doing to burn it's mana.
Understandable. I was just stating the way it works.
Personally, I don't really care so much about it though it's a very small issue compared to everything else Pets are able to do nowadays.
This is cool to know...
The problem in any disagreement... is that conflict stirs in the silence. We are simply looking for answers... I see the meetings they have with the community and it never answers anything... so why do they do them...
Same here... if there is no thought to listening to the community, then why read it?
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I would love it if you could see what/when a pet is casting. +1 for that idea.
Agreed.
Prior to the taming patch though- it was awful to be 3+ screens away and get hit with a firebreath.
If you have taming the FC cap for chivalry should be reduced to 2 instead of 4
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Just for my own education... why would Chiv need a 2/6 cap if the char has taming? One of my tamers is a Chiv/Archer/Tamer, not sure how his 4/6 would be OP in PvP any more than a person without Taming.
Because normally 4/6 chiv characters are not known for their damage in pvp. No other combination of skills and 4/6 chiv gives the same type of damage output. But when you have a tamer that also has 4/6, they can have both really strong defense and offense.
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